Bitcoin Forum

Hi guys,

Seems BCH is going down fast. Is this the moment were BCH is going to bleed death?
Will the downtrent turn or continue?

Please let me know what you think ;)

Bitcoin Cash came from the same ledger as the original currency, Bitcoin owners were issued Bcash upon the split. But many have sold off their new digital cash to chase after Bitcoin and its newfound potential.BCH is currently trading at above 300$ and it was above 500$ before a month ago.As the invester sold off their BCH ,its dumped badly , if anybody have it I think he should hold for long time.
 

bleed baby bleed!

sell now!

I didn't think it offered anything in the first place, and I don't now. As far as I'm concerned the price is pure speculation and a gradual drop towards $0 seems likely.
Congratulations to those that made a massive return on the insane initial pump though :)

This coin and so long was in the top it is time to go down

It was only the matter of time when will this death come. It was just very strange to see one more shitcoin at top-10 at coinmarketcap after the previous hardfork)

.
The bleeding is a great one and hardly are we going to see any recovery because with new fork coming, it automatically makes it the new bride which will be exalted till the time another bride will take over from it. The fact still remain that we cannot have two btc neither can we have two ETH everyone should just run his race. And this should be  lesson to other promoters that what they are doing is just making more free money for people whose Faith in bitcoin core remains unshaken.

The downtrend will continue until it suddenly stops.  :)

I don't think we have seen the last of bcash. Roger and Jihan have put to much money and prestige in this scam just to let it fade away. They will get desperate and pump it up again. They might even have a plan. The outcome of the 2x fork will also affect bcash.

The coming fork, of course, influences BCH, as it does with all other alts.
The amount of this influence can be slightly bigger.
I think no one can tell you exactly, but I'm pretty sure "bleeding death" is not the right description for a third-volume coin.

it will turn back to the top cause bch fluctuation is the way we see now, its not stable. just hold your coin now and wait its rise.

I'm interested to see if BCH will rally during a Segwit2x "moment of weakness". Long-term, I see BCH continuing the slow bleed with a few rallies along the way.

Still bleeding, sell all now!

People convert to btc for upcoming btc fork

The price should have an increase after the update for Bitcoin. Once the update happens then the price should go back to around $500 or so.

I don't think it will die as soon as this. I know we all guys are basically favoring bitcoin over everything but just don't forget this coin is still at top 5. It is still legit and valid coin. It won't die easily.

And it seems to me that now everyone has a tough time. I do not even know what to trade? Many are at the bottom and do not show signs of life, and those that have risen, also somehow climb is not a hunt, sort of like a rollback.

strange things!

and why Bitmain is selling the antminer S9 only for payment with bitcoin cash???!!!

BCH will soon die. I don't see it coming back from this bleeding. It was really dumped that much in a span of 2 months it went from $914 to $316 and the hype over it is now over. I remember before it was released many speculated that it will or it might dethrone btc and the hype really made it big.

The usual trend for copycat coins is downside. And BitcoinCash is just a clone of Bitcoin after all, with quite a hype around it.
But the fairy tale is over now. I don't think that BCH will recover.
The only thing that could give a tiny chance for BCH to grow would be that something would go awfully bad with Bitcoin. Just Bitcoin seems to be better than ever...

BCH is born to die soon. I'm not sure BCH will increase higher after bitcoin fork.
Im excited to see what happen on BCH after bitcoin fork.

BCH will not die but will engulf ETH. BCH is heavily traded on exchange and moreover the chinese BITMAIN has still not exchanged their BCH and there is sort of BCH in Market. Soon or later it will engulf ETH.

Tension grows... Soon main miners will not stand and start dumping their coin and stop mining. This will be the end.

Bitcoin Cash has no future. Bitmain mining Bitcoin cash and dumping them all. There is no community behind bitcoin cash.
So everything shows R.I.P Bitcoin cash

yes, absolutely. Stay away from BCH

I don't think it's dying yet, with Bitmain and Ver heavily invested into it. The current drop has 2 good causes: the overall drop of altcoins before the BTC fork as people want to cash in on more free money (As with BCH) but ALSO, BCH has been recently credited on 3 big exchanges and there are a lot of "free money" people who are cashing in from the previous fork.

Unless China outright bans mining, I don't think it will die, but lets wait and see.

It is doing well, all things considered. I think it has potential for a "fake" copy of bitcoin, it is actually dong very well and is priced above ethereum.

Today a big exchange is releasing their BCC to their customers, could be another dump coming today....

It wasn't much of a help in the first place so most likely people are not really holding on to BCH coins and just disposed most of their free coin to get BTC. So yes eventually it will bleed out and most especially another altcoin is to be created from Bitcoin.

When Bitcoin Cash was distributed but was not yet allowed to be dumped, the price was really high, considering that it was not accepted very well by the big diehard fans of bitcoin. The backers of Bitcoin Cash were large whales especially miners. But then when the dumping starts, Bitcoin Cash went spiraling down. I guess holding it longer will only mean lower value. I prefer dumping BCH rather than holding.

BCH has a unique pattern from all other altcoins in that it’s in a triangle pattern both w.r.t. to BTC and USD!

We’re at the bottom of the triangle again, and the triangle is about to close at the vertex, so the price either has to skyrocket or collapse soon, i.e. it will not sit around $300 for a long time (weeks at most, not months).

My bet is skyrocketing because of the chaos and fight between BTCSegWit, BTCSegWit2x, and BTCSatoshi (aka the Real Bitcoin) (https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/the-real-bitcoin-which-bitcoin-fork-will-win). Don’t forget my warning:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/shocking-crisis-coming-to-cryptocurrency-in-sept

(the warning above has potential dire consequences for those who sell BCH for BTC)

Also because it’s usually wise to do the opposite of everyone else and buy when there’s panic selling.

BCH is the only airdrop fork of Bitcoin (LTC being a fork but not an airdrop) which has a significantly increased block size. SegWit is entirely insecure and will end up eventually (but when?) being destroyed IMO:

https://nchain.com/en/blog/risks-of-segregated-witness-mining-cartels/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5r6l2v/lightning_network_security_concern_and_bitcoin/dgr35db/?context=1

As the market senses this and senses the chaos of a fight between 1MB and 2MB, BCH will possibly skyrocket.

Also remember that as the price of BTC rising then the difficulty rises, but the difficulty readjustment period is roughly every 2 weeks yet BCH has a fast readjustment period. So if BTC price declines and BCH rises, then it can start a spiral where it’s more profitable to mine BCH and mining shifts to BCH in self-reinforcing spiral of decling BTC price and rising BCH price.

The Scalepocalypse is not yet resolved!

https://www.dashforcenews.com/bitcoin-com-to-dump-segwit2x-roger-ver-might-help-nchain-block-segwit/

Remember I’m the guy who publicly suggested (in fact screamed it all over the forum) buying LTC at $6 and selling at $80. I’m also the guy that was writing on these forums when Byteball was $1 million market cap that it had a unique technology that was worthwhile and that everyone should nibble on it even though I had concerns about its other design weaknesses. Ask @thejaytiesto for confirmation (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1739268.0).


Difficulty drops to meet the price, i.e. miners leave until an equilibrium is established where the amount of hashrate is profitable. Miners go where the profit is. So its impossible for it to be a case where all miners leave. Nonsense.

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Note the following tangential criticism of SegWit is not going to determine the success or failure of SegWit:

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-legal-experts-nchain-segwit-criticisms-flawed/

But I do agree with this nuance of the critique:


My decentralized ledger design’s protocol requires every node that signs for having verified a signature, to maintain that signature and be responsible for responding to inquiry for that signature (for predetermined fee). Nodes that habitually fail to respond are blacklisted by the collectivized cognition of the system (and nodes lose a very valuable revenue producing asset by failing to comply and they can’t attack the security of the consensus system by failing to comply). My decentralized ledger employs an objectivized swarm design to overcome the weaknesses of proof-of-work and proof-of-stake.

 they used bitcoin for marketing and probably they sold every bch they have. probably it will disappear in few months. same thing will happen to bitcoin gold.

People still trust and use BTC, so the value of BCH will decrease gradually, or will increase when there are many users.
I think so!  ;D ;D ;D

all the altcoins are going down. why do you think bitcoin cash needs to be different from all the other (pump and dump) altcoins?
everyone is finally dumping their bags and pretty soon there will be a massive panic selling all around the altcoin market. at least in man coins it will be like this.

and i can't really agree that BCH will die anytime soon though. the Bitmain and this Ver character will continue pouring money into it if they feel a death threat.

BCH is shit and should just die
thanks for the free money tho :)
lol!

I think Bitcoin Cash will need some time to rise again. They still have a chance to be a high value coin and China will support bcc!

At least BCH ever beat ETH price a moment when she enter the market for first time. I think this time she should be down before she rise again and make a surprise for us.

May be BCH will not just die... But for sure it is pretty much speculated coin. Yes, there are big money and support behind BCH but for speculation mostly. Not so much value, so little usage. I just dont see any big future for coin like this.

SegWit is the fake copy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2251762.msg22882066#msg22882066).

This is going to be quite shocking to most of you.

Satoshi planned it out well (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972052.msg22658897#msg22658897), that you would have your “fingertips burned up to your armpits” to teach you about immutability.

Bitmain supported BCH and they even offering it as payment accepted coins only. So I'm sure that BCH will not simple die or go away.

http://www.trustnodes.com/2017/10/01/bitmain-now-accepts-bitcoin-cash-latest-mining-hardware

But since its just another altcoin, it will remain in the public just like hundreds of coins in it existence. BCH is even in the top #5. So it will remain in the market, although not much backing from the community. So we can hate it as much as we want, but it will still last as long as there as trading/hodling the coins.(although minimal).

Disagree.

It seems you’ve failed to comprehend my posts in this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2251762.msg22882066#msg22882066).

BCH is the only airdropped (i.e. not a totally new issuance such as LTC) fork of Bitcoin which is compatible with Satoshi’s immutable design for Bitcoin. SegWit is the fake, and it has huge security holes.

There are very powerful groups that are prepared to buy all your BCH with BTC that they plan to steal back with a chain reorganization. I am talking about people with millions of BTC.

Also the design of SegWit enables any mining cartel to steal all of those outputs, unlike non-SegWit transactions (the BTC for BCH can be stolen because the attacker has the private key for when he spent the BTC for BCH and can double-spend it later).

So what do you think about Bitcoin gold? Will this be the same? I can hardly believe it will be able to replace BCH. But certainly it will confuse the market again, and much more those, which are not deeply involved into the crypto market.

Via btc and btcchina are giants and I don't hope that they will let bch bleed in a long run. This is the time to fill the bags..I am particularly bullish on Bch.

Changing the proof-of-work renders the coin not Bitcoin any more, as the majority of mining hardware (by hashrate) in the world suddenly can not mine it.

There’s no such thing as ASIC resistant. I had analysed Equihash in the past in these forums. I had deep discussions (https://gist.github.com/shelby3/67d990230e2dc9eb8be9e43e0b0b77a7) with @tromp and others about ASIC resistance.

Changing the proof-of-work hash means it is no longer Bitcoin. Bitcoin gold will be an altcoin and incompatible with Satoshi’s protocol, unlike BCH which afaics is the only compatible fork.

There is no possible change that could be made to proof-of-work so that proof-of-work does not become run by an oligarchy, unless you make it perpetually highly inflationary. The technical explanation is here:

https://gist.github.com/shelby3/e0c36e24344efba2d1f0d650cd94f1c7

Proof-of-work was invented by Mossad to enslave mankind (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972052.msg22658897#msg22658897). I was thinking that in 2013 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160612.0), but I did not know at the time that it was the Zionists who were pulling the strings (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1972052.msg22621659#msg22621659). Seems every time I start writing about the Zionists, then BCT gets slammed with a DDoS attack, so I hope it doesn’t happen again.

maybe BCH will be shitcoin, bch can not compete with Bitcoin, because it only has the purpose of replacing bitcoin, while everyone already believes bitcoin. So BCH bleeding..

I don't think bitcoins cash price will be death just because the price is down due to all of the digital coins always be fluctuations in the price so do with bitcoins cash, it started many people who adopted it include today there's projects localbitcoincash take look it
http://www.livebitcoinnews.com/localbitcoincash-will-platform-worth-keeping-eye/ and the the of bitcoins cash price started sideaway won't goes more down for right now.

BCH is Bitcoin. SegWit is not Bitcoin.

Did you comprehend what I wrote (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2251762.msg22882066#msg22882066)?

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At the latest probably November. But I do not know if it will crash in price first. Might stabilize at $300 or might crash further first.

I think BCH will continue to fall because everyone is waiting for the next hard fork from BTC. But anyway, investors still believe in BTC very much

We have industrial miners mining bitcoin and bitcoincash. Miners need to choose one for a long term predictable profit. (regular switching won't be suitable for large miners.) And Bitcoin is still the king in that algo.

BCH is BTC. BTCSegWit is not BTC. What are you saying exactly?

Are you saying that most people are ignorant of technology and thus they think SegWit BTC is BTC and thus they are fooled? If so, yes I agree with you and they may lose their BTC because of their ignorance.


Bitcoin is the king. So why would SegWit which is not Bitcoin win when in fact SegWit attempts to steal revenue from miners by moving transactions offchain and renders proof-of-work insecure because it creates a booty of “pay to anyone” transactions which a mining cartel can steal.

SegWit is incompatible with Satoshi’s protocol and destroys the security of proof-of-work. BCH is compatible with Satoshi’s protocol and does not create insecurity.

Besides the whales of Bitcoin have already decided and they’re just waiting to trap all the fools in SegWit BTC and steal your BTC from you with a chain reorganization. They’ve warned you all many times but you’re all hard-headed. So the only way they can teach you to respect the immutability of Bitcoin is by taking your BTC away from you.

Well, they do the right thing. Despite the fact that there will eventually be born, as it will have a decent value. I think that no matter how bad a new coin is, it can always be dumped with profit for yourself. Here altkoinov already fluctuates around a thousand, and bitcoin will be only the third.

People are converting to btc for upcoming bitcoin gold

The linked paper on selfish mining was quite interesting but I did not draw the same conclusion from it.

From the relevant paper section 3.1

http://randomwalker.info/publications/mining_CCS.pdf

The paper does not evaluate the situation where block size is limited miners do not have space to include all available transactions in a block, and fluctuations of fees are not large..

Yet this scenario is exactly what you would expect to see in a widely adopted BTC functioning under a gradually increasing block size such as is currently advocated by the Core team.

If anything this paper is a strong argument against the big block folks and BCH as it shows their model of scaling is possibly not viable.

In regards to your argument against small blocks you stated.

https://gist.github.com/shelby3/e0c36e24344efba2d1f0d650cd94f1c7

I also do not see how it follows at least from the logic presented that miners and "whales" (how do you define whale in any meaningful way?) are economically the same entity.

I see no reason why a wealthy individual would pay a much higher multiple of fee per KB unless the transaction was time sensitive. It would not be necessary and would amount to giving money to the miner for free.

I agree that the Core roadmap will lead to off chain transactions which will facilitate fractional reserve banking. FRB is a sociatial issue, however, it is the acceptance of a lie (the simultaneous granting of two claims that cannot be simultaneously honored in many circumstances yet are promised to be simultaneously honored) as acceptable and tolerated behavior. I highly doubt any form of cryptocurrency will eliminate FRB as society is not yet ready to embrace truth in this area.

I have seen no realistic threat that would lead to SEGWIT being rolled back and transactions being stolen. Should a group of miners attempt this it would be just another hard fork against consensus. A hard fork based on a foundation of stealing will go no where. The miners could also create a hard fork giving them an extra 21 million bitcoin to make that fork viable, however, they need to convince everyone to go along with it.

That and the reasons above are why I sold all my BCH at 0.172. I will probably also sell my 2X if that forks off and am still on the fence about bitcoin gold. As of today I do not view these non consensus forks as having much if any long term value.

Each split of BTC increases the overall market cap of cryptocurrency due to the wealth effect.

Thus we can expect this “increased value” to spill out into altcoins in general after the split same as it did for the BCH split. And this time we have two splits coming SegWitch2x and Bitcoin gold.

The more the merrier.

I think bitcoin cash grow only at the expense of hyip, which has already passed and that the price will fall.

You are very correct but looking at the way it is, those big giants are not the only players in the market and by the time other forks come on board, you tend to have their dedication divided witch each trying to promote their different versions as the best thing which then makes them compete against each other. Don't also forget that a good player knows when to quit the game but I also believe its not yet over for BCH.

CoinCube in responding to my prior post (http://archive.is/yPH9c), you’ve written nothing to refute the reasons that SegWit is insecure and your BTC can be stolen.

You are trying to argue against the ancillary point I made about it being impossible for proof-of-work to remain under decentralized control (https://gist.github.com/shelby3/e0c36e24344efba2d1f0d650cd94f1c7). This argument below has nothing to do with why SegWit is insecure and incompatible with Satoshi’s Bitcoin protocol. So you’ve entirely avoided rebutting the main reason I gave you for why BCH is superior to SegWit.


It’s not primarily a research paper about selfish mining. You’re confused. The selfish mining research paper was Majority is not Enough: Bitcoin Mining is Vulnerable (https://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243) (and several follow on papers of which this one below is not).

The flaw is not due to selfishness, but rather due to misaligned incentives in the protocol when block rewards decline and transaction fees increase.


If your response was phrased as one of probing or your ideas you want me to respond to, I would find it to be less hubris than when you as a n00b declare that you can make conclusions accurately, without first testing your ideas against someone more expert in the technological area than you are.

Certainly you would not write in that tone to Core developers would you?


You’re grasping at strings.

The paper clearly points out that since transaction fees are power-law distributed because wealth is, then it is irrelevant whether there are extra transactions waiting in the mempool, because the value of those transactions will be up to an order-of-magnitude less than the ones that fit into the block.

Thus as they say, their model still applies, although the precise quantitative results might be slightly different, the qualitative result is expected to be the same. That qualitative result is the proof-of-work does not converge to consensus when the block rewards is less than the revenue from transaction fees (regardless of the block size).

Sorry you are incorrect in your understanding.

Additionally you are failing to factor in that their analysis does not even begin to touch the surface of the game theories of subverting the consensus when block reward declines for a non-inflationary future, as I alluded to in my discussion of the research which of course as usual you ignored because you ignore everything I write on technology:

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Incorrect as explained above. Yet another example of why you should not trust yourself to analyse anything about blockchain technology.

And you haven’t even scratched the surface in analysing how the SegWit “pay to anyone” loot and Mt. Box “garbage collection stalls” chain settlement egregiously negatively impacts the game theories thereof above, as the nChain blog article I linked to delves into slightly.

It’s quite telling how n00b you are in that you’re focused on the size of the blocks instead on the factors that really matter, as I alluded to in my posts in the thread about insecurity and incompatibility of SegWit.

You’re so lucky to have a former friend who is so astute on blockchain technology and who has patiently offered you so much information, but you’re so sure of yourself even though you have not invested 1/100th of the time and effort I have invested in this technological area.


I suggest you reread the relevant section of my Gist (https://gist.github.com/shelby3/e0c36e24344efba2d1f0d650cd94f1c7#oligarchy-or-hara-kiri-if-limited-block-size) and also follow the links to the discussion that transpired on BCT with @Dorky.

You apparently failed to assimilate all that logic presented.


Afaics, you’re not conceptualizing correctly. The whales in the Bitcoin ecosystem will be those that are conducting the most aggregated transactions for offchain stuff (not Lightning Network offchain but just for example the exchanges we have now), e.g. interexchange transfers between major exchanges.

And in general, whales are willing to pay a higher transaction fee than the dolphins because it’s peanuts compared to the value of the transaction.

So with limited block sizes the transaction fees being competitive are dominated by the whales. I have no idea why you wouldn’t understand this.

The whales are thus synonomous with the miners because they are paying all the revenue of the miners so they can mine it themselves or demand kickbacks from the miners. Either way, they’re economically the same entity because they pay themselves (other than the cost of the electricity which they can limit once they have the oligarchy in place which is the long-range plan of the Mossad)

You could try to argue that the whales will be numerous and unaligned thus they can’t coordinate sufficiently (i.e. if they each had their own miner, they would have to wait too long to pay themselves). Yet this is a dubious argument on the face of it assuming they can tolerate long delays between settlement, and additionally the game theory flaws outlined in the aforementioned research paper force them to coordinate to form an oligarchy.


But SegWit legitimizes these Mt. Box transactions (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5r6l2v/lightning_network_security_concern_and_bitcoin/dgr35db/?context=1) as somehow bona fide because they in theory ultimately settle on the blockchain. But they do not really, which is what the nChain blog and my discussion with the author of Bitbay (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5r6l2v/lightning_network_security_concern_and_bitcoin/dgr35db/?context=1) was pointing out.

It’s not just Mt. Box aspect but also the fact the uncoordinated settlement to the block chain could cause “garbage collection” spikes in transaction volume load and thus spikes in transaction fees, thus exacerbating the game theory flaws.

The link to the nChain blog and my Redditard discussion was in my earlier post in this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2251762.msg22862113#msg22862113).


Incorrect. You’ve entirely failed to read my writings!

The SegWit transactions become a booty that can be spent by the mining cartel that does the chain reorganization. This is unlike normal Bitcoin transactions wherein the miner does not have the private key so can’t steal the funds.

Additionally since Bitmain et al have BTC they can purchase BCH with it, but hang on to those private keys for the BTC they spent. When they roll back the chain to August 4, then they can steal back all the BTC they paid for BCH, while also keeping all the BCH also.

Thus the huge difference is the chain rollback is financed and paid for in advance!

Cripes man. You do not even grok basic technological and economics facts and thus you should be more circumspect.


No you misunderstand. Those who are using SegWit are using an illegal fork of Bitcoin and are giving away their BTC to which ever miners want to spend them. This is a flaw in SegWit. The miners will simply avail of the fools which follow Blockstream and do not understand that signing your BTC over to “pay to anyone” is damn foolish.

Bitcoin does not protect you from your own stupidity. It is designed to take capital away from the foolish and award it to the astute.

As for my theory of the miners stealing back BTC they used to pay for BCH, they’ll justify this as necessary to destroy the illegal fork of Bitcoin that lowered the security of Satoshi’s protocol. It is essentially a weapon against Blockstream which is a weapon against the security of Bitcoin.

The ability to steal SegWit is not the only security weakness of SegWit as I already explained. The game theory flaws will multiply. We’ve only scratched the surface.


Please ignore me. I want to enjoy the lulz.

Please also ignore my expertise about ASIC resistance as it pertains to Bitcoin gold (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2251762.msg22885328#msg22885328).

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@CoinCube and I continued on in private, it’s possible I misinterpreted his tone, and I excerpt a portion of my reply:


We also got into the concept that the least contentious fork should win and I wrote:

It's quite normal considering the fact that BCH and BTC usually has an inverse relationship.

The fact that bitcoin has went up so much over the past few days means that BCH will crash - since people who invest in bitcoin usually do not have an investment in BCH, and people that have an investment in BCH usually have very little investment in BTC.

In the long term i really see no value coming out of BCH but in the short term, there could be a price rebound.

Is it because BTC is rising? I saw an article that says that BCH "I'm still going to rise in price because the mining efficiency is good." How is it?

News Flash Investards: Everyone in crypto is here to profit.

How do they do that ? ..buy / dump.. cash out.

Congratulations you know how crypto works now.. happy "investing"  :D
What more do you expect ?
XYZ coin was sooooo hyped that all the hoards of profiteer douche bags are going to HODL forever making *YOU* rich ?
Why would they ?
What ? Missed the pattern of jumping from coin to coin for profits ?
It's been that way for ALMOST A DECADE idiots  :D

Do the same thing for roughly 8 bloody years then expect a different result ?
Ya.. you are brilliant little "investors" hahhahaha

Altcoins  :D

From the present look of things and how much people are really dumping it, I definitely agree with you. However, people can easily change their mind at any time and anything can create a huge buying in for it in future.
I would not want to agree yet that it is dead, even though with less community behind it, community can build up pretty fast than we can imagine with any development, but time will tell.

seem this is really truth. people still fall in love with bitcoin and doesnt make any move even bch is better

indeed it is going down fast, but in my opinion it will rise after the fork , so I will hold my BCH

Some additional points of discussion:

• Coinbase dump of BCH may be impacting the price?
• The community support for SegWit may not be as significant as the illusion it appears to be. All the whales I know of, hate SegWit. Millions of BTC decides, not minnows. Bitmain agreed to help SegWit become reality, but Jihan Wu obviously has some strategy in play.
• There are many whales who hate you minnows for being so stupid about SegWit and they are quite ready to support the miners that are going to punish you. Cryptocurrency is not a democracy where everybody (including UASF/UAHF retards and rapefugees) gets 1 vote. That is the first thing you need to learn that support of lunch money investors such as the following are irrelevant:
  
  
  Quote from: arbitrage on October 12, 2017, 01:24:48 PM
  I never gave support nor showed simpaties for this coin becuse it was direct fist in face of BTC
  
• Changing the proof-of-work renders the coin not Bitcoin any more, as the majority of mining hardware (by hashrate) in the world suddenly can not mine it. Which is more or less conceding the chain reorganization to the victor.
• Might take more months or never occur. Bottom may be $300, $200, or even $100. My popcorn is ready. I find it very exciting. I would love to see so many people lose their BTC. It is a perfect way to teach people to stop disrespecting people who try to be helpful and who are knowledgeable. Reality check to the arrogant/overconfident Bitcoin-SegWit-Blockstream maximalists who think they know everything. No we didn’t just give up, we are quiet awaiting SegWit to blow up as we think it will in any of numerous ways.
• I don’t have any particular affinity for Bitmain, I just think the deception and poor engineering decisions of Blockstream and the insecure crap they keep foisting on Bitcoin is objectively much worse. We expect the market to prove this to be correct.
• I don’t know if BCH has any quality engineering, but it really does not need much because it is basically a clone of pre-SegWit Bitcoin, with a few simple tweaks.
• A massive rollback to August 4th would devastate the cryptocurrency economy creating another crypto winter equivalent to Mt. Gox (which had 75% of the exchange market). Sales of BTC acquired via a SegWit transaction or downstream of a BTC paid for BCH could potentially be double-spent potentially leading to lawsuits as exchanges tried to clawback money from everyone who double-spent on them. Also ICOs enforcement coming, so yes a crypto winter may be coming. Whales benefit from price decline as they can swoop in to take more of the pie at fire sale prices. The whales decide. Cryptocurrency is not a democracy.

But isn't "BTCSegWit" and TRB or BTCSatoshi or however we want to call it on the same team effectively? Even if they don't like each other, since both share the legacy chain (and both MP's crew and Core don't want to hardfork the legacy chain, so that is a huge stake against hardforkers because Core devs are pretty loaded too and ready to dump on forks, plus control bitcoin.org which is the highest ranked website for "bitcoin" and warn noobs about hardforks), as long as you are holding BTC in legacy addresses and not segwit addresses, you will not have any BTC stolen in case SegWit ever goes south, and you will keep recieving any further hardfork-coins (like Bitcoin Gold coming soon, 2x or whatever).

So I don't see the problem. Just hold BTC in legacy chain in legacy format addresses for max protection against this type of events. This is another test of strength for BTC. It should survive 2x, if it does then I don't think any of the forks will have much relevancy. We will find out soon. I think enough hashrate will be mining legacy chain to survive a potential attack. f2pool is signaling "intention" for 2x for example, but they will not actually mine it. I don't know what the super whales are doing, but they should also be working to incentivize miners into keep mining the legacy chain so I predict other miners that signed the NYA will keep mining legacy. What they aren't going to do is support any fork just because it doesn't have segwit.

PS: I didn't dump 100% of my BCH so if it pumps then cool. Left some basically because I know Roger and co have a ton of money too and figured they would try to pump it too eventually. But they may jump ship and join 2x at least temporarily to cause damage on legacy chain and try to market BCH as a safe place, with these guys you never know. In fact this seems to be the case already with Roger saying he will list 2x as BTC on his website:

https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/issues/1835#issuecomment-334869248

PS2: The damage of segwit going south would indeed be brutal for the whole ecosystem and yet to be seen if BTC as a whole would survive it if there is a ton of segwit adoption. Let's hope it never happens. Like I said I will be holding my main stack on legacy format so im not worried, but the price crash would be obvious and pretty much everyone on Core would be on suicide watch after a such a fuck up.
As a non programmer, I never understood why all these people which are supposed to be super smart, would all gamble with the project they've put endless hours at, their entire careers, and potentially their lives because there would be a lot of pissed off people at them if it happens. So I assumed the chances of segwit fucking up are unrealistic, otherwise I just fail to understand it. Why would they all be for segwit if the fuck up is a realistic scenario?

I do not have very high hopes for bitcoin cash. We will see what happens in time.

How the heck is your average Joe Blow (like me) going to be able to use BTC effectively such as trading on exchanges for altcoins and fiat, if they need to enforce TRB protocol and insure no SegWit booty is in the lineage of their transactions?

I think I read on the Trilema logs in the past some comment about any SegWit in the lineage would be safe after one re-spend mixing it with non-SegWit lineage, but I do not see how that is the case? If SegWit is in the lineage, then all the downstream transactions become invalid when the upstream SegWit transaction is stolen by a mining cartel.

Thus I do not see how BTC can continue in this state of purgatory. There needs to be a resolution of the SegWit trojan horse.

And I doubt very much if Core and this website have even 1/10th of the resources at their disposal as compared the whales who understand that without security and immutability, then Bitcoin is not worthy. They can’t even keep this website up against DDoS attacks.


Yes if you obtained BTC that has no pollution in its lineage (or you bought it long ago), but how do you determine if any of the lineage included a BTC spend for BCH trade where in the attacking miners control the private keys for that BTC and can double-spend it. They might have even loaded that BTC into an exchange and will double-spend on the exchange effecting some many people on exchanges (if that aspect of my theory is valid).

I view it as a huge headache and distraction. I am getting exasperated with Bitcoin. Wish they could get their shit together.


An attack on SegWit changes the landscape (although that might not come until months from now, if ever). Miners move to where they can earn the most profit.

Political posturing could possibly be only for plausible deniability.


Why you “hope it never happens”? I hope it happens!

A huge opportunity to buy cheap and get rid of that insecure crap. Who wouldn’t want to load up on BTC at $1000 after selling at $5000+ and riding BCH from $100 up to $1000  ??? Do you hate making money my friend?


Lol. Great. Couldn’t happen to nicer group of Hitlers who hijacked Bitcoin with deception. Why didn’t they just go create their own altcoin like the rest of us are doing? Because they are special Hitlers.


One of the many reasons I think of is that Gregory Maxwell is presumably of German ancestry (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4901) (but note I do too but mixed with French, Welsh, and native American). I wasn’t the only person who noticed this schizophrenic, wolf-in-sheepskin wannabe-overlord mentality (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271711.msg2914663#msg2914663) (some Redditard threads about it (https://www.google.com/search?q=site:reddit.com+Gregory+Maxwell+hitler)). On a less personal analysis, I think they did not have other options other than making an altcoin which they felt was beneath them. And because I think they thought their goals were to find clever (over engineered! not K.I.S.S. principle) ways to side-step Bitcoin’s transaction volume scaling issue. Mix all those factors together and apparently we get Frankenchain (although some may try to argue that SegWit is wonderful and safe). Again a rule-of-thumb in software engineering is complexity kills. And the founder of Trilema had a scalding thread on BCT (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152027.0) explaining his anger about how the Core devs were incompetent, adding unnecessary complexity, and not developing a specification (the code was the only specification) formalism. He was pointing out that getting the foundation perfected and clean was a higher priority than attaching bells & whistle experiments.


I replied to your post at the poll thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2259054.msg22930821#msg22930821


EDIT: it should be pointed out that miners have an incentive to support a non-segwit chain even if there is no chain reorganization, because they can attempt to take that ongoing SegWit value for themselves, because as viewed from Satoshi’s protocol, this is a “pay to anyone” transaction. A chain reorganization is a way to capture historic booty and lock miners into the fork with the incentive of the booty to jumpstart the consensus around taking SegWit for the miners. So it is not quite accurate to state that SegWit requires a contentious fork. It merely requires that miners act in their best interests to protect Satoshi’s protocol and the immutability and security of Bitcoin for the maximum long-term value of their hardware investment, as well as maximizing their profit in the short-term. SegWit supporters argue that this is an attack on the community, but rather SegWit enemies argue it a protection against the SegWit attack on Bitcoin.

Another very important factor to consider is that I explained why (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2251762.msg22889412#msg22889412) the miners are owned by the whales and others explained that mining is a horrible business to be in (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=201268.msg2121475#msg2121475) unless you have a plan for world domination. Tie that together with my exposition on why (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=201268.msg2121475#msg2121475) proof-of-work has to become run by a mining oligarchy else it fails to converge as transaction fees increase. Then you can analyse who is into mining and why.  ;)

Here is a version of the Blockstream koolaid deception and lies:


The above is how a Blockhead would spread disinformation and propaganda.

The truth is that SegWit was a change that violated the immutability of Bitcoin if it is assumed that miners will not treat the transactions as “pay to anyone”. The Real Bitcoin refuses to honor that change because it demands we do not fall down that slippery slope of mutating Bitcoin. So stealing[accepting the donations] from the fools who “pay to anyone” is honoring the immutable protocol of Bitcoin. Yet a Blockhead would try to play politics and equate protecting the immutability with doing the opposite.

In-fucking-credulous!

And for a follow-up it, the propaganda gets even more twisted:


It is not a valid point. Those who make donations to miners in order to fund the blockchain are very generous and appreciated. Miners who honor Satoshi’s protocol gladly accept those donations. There is no lie/deception on their part. Blockheads are lying about the reality of what immutability means.

We can suppose his point is that two wrongs don’t make it right or that stealing is always immoral. But it belies an understanding of contract law and reality. The deception was initiated by Blockstream who made people believe that donations were transactions. Society can’t function if we reward deception by giving retards and rapefugees a vote. If the protocol says one thing, and some fools do another thing, they are culpable, not society.

Of course this was as expected the bitcoin community dont want any new token that is a copy paste of bitcoin in the this businesses is nothing without there customers the users clearly choose bitcoin instead of BCH that is fijded centralized corporate entity. This will become another airdrop a free money for bitcoin investor and then convert the new token to bitcoin, well be seeing some bullish price again.

Lol at Hyperme.sh posts above.  BCH supporters talking like crazy nutcases now that Bitcoin is mooning while the dumping of BCH continues.  

n00bs have no clue.

They want transaction scaling on the reserve currency of crypto which makes no sense because it violates the immutability and sacrifices security which are the key attributes that gives the reserve currency its stature as compared to altcoins.

The transaction scaling is available on altcoins and on exchanges.

That n00bs think SegWit is better because it adds more features exemplifies how they are technologically ignorant sheep who wilfully (boisterously and even belligerently) want to be deceived into to making donations to the miners as I explained in my prior post.

BCH gave the n00bs what they wanted which is an increase in block size (some fixed amount of transaction capacity increase), without destroying the security as SegWit does. It is at a higher same stature as any other airdrop, because it has the backing of the large mining cartels. It is probably just a decoy and not superior to the The Real Bitcoin (TRB = no SegWit), but it is certainly better than the SegWit insecure crapola which encourages users to spend their transactions to “pay to anyone” on TRB (aka BTCSatoshi) protocol which will probably ultimately prevail.


That is what they said when LTC was at $6 and they also said “WTF?” when Byteball was $1 million marketcap and I recommended nibbling on it.

How about we wait until the end game to take an accounting? By my book, I am already at 100X gains since the start of this year in terms of my recommendations.

Btw, a phase transition mooning is the time to sell, not the time to buy. But please do buy more BTCSegWit at $8000, lol. (And please tell us about it boastfully while pounding your chest)

P.S. $5600 to $8000 is < 50% increase. $240ish to $1000 would be 300+% gain. But low, sell high.


Presuming the community of whales would not accept the TRB, then BCH is the closest to BTCSatoshi of any fork thus far.

SegWit is not even close to being Bitcoin, unless we assume the SegWit transactions are donations to miners. In which case, yes SegWit is Bitcoin and it is a donation system which Blockstream created so that all the n00bs can be stripped of their BTC in the form of donations to miners.

Bitcoin cash may reach single digit when new coin introduce after next fork it’s just the game of whales you can take profit now to reduce your loss . I think it’s not heathy move for bitcoin because lots of fork happening.

SegWit2X is probably deleterious. It splits the SegWit supporters probably causing some of them to fight each other and/or confusion. (getting them to split their mining resources probably helps with any future attack on one of the two forks)

Bitcoin Gold is not Bitcoin at all. It changes the proof-of-work algorithm which means it has no mining cartels of significance behind it.

BCH is the only semi-legitimate airdrop fork of Bitcoin. It provides a counter-correlated hedge against BTC peaking and then declining in price. LTC also provides this, and also offers SegWit for those who still think SegWit is important.

My expectation has been that BTC would moon first, then LTC, and then BCH.

SegWit will die a fiery death. And Bitcoin gold will be insignificant.

Hopefully at the end of all this BTC = TRB (aka Satoshi’s protocol with no SegWit). A block size increase or not is okay with me, but no increase is better for protecting immutability.

I think most of Bitcoinfork coin will die in near future.

Nope, not all the altcoins are going down. It is just bitcoin cash which is about to die very soon. There was a time when people thought that it was going to defeat bitcoin. Bitcoin is making progress nowadays and I don't think so that other altcoins are declining either. Everyone is expecting profits from ethereum, monero, neo, waves, litecoins and it will happen.

Wouldn’t that indicate it is the most counter-correlated to BTC  ???

Aren’t we supposed to buy what is panic sold and sell what is panic bought  ???


ftfy.

It should die. It's taking up good capital. Dash and lite coin have already accomplished everything that it could hope to do.

I agree all forks of Satoshi’s protocol must eventually die, including BTCSegWit and BCH. But the question is what happens between now and that final outcome.

Dash is a masternode obfuscated centralized controlled scam.

Litecoin is SegWit.

Neither of which have Bitcoin’s airdropped distribution.

BCH is pure Satoshi Bitcoin (no SegWit) except with an 8MB block size and a faster difficulty adjustment. BCH is supported by the largest Bitcoin mining concern.

BTCSegWit is at $5700 nosebleed and is polluted with SegWit, no longer a pure Satoshi protocol unless we assume all the SegWit transactions are to be double-spent as future donations to the miners.

Please be factual in your statements.


Are you going to take profits out of BTCSegWit at $6000+ into LTC, NEO, ETH, XMR which are all near an ATH or into BCH which is near an ATL  ??? Seems like a no brainer decision to me. I like to sell high and buy low.

The best speculators buy when everyone else is panic selling. I’m hoping for one more leg up in BTCSegWit and one more leg down in BCH.

BCH is worthless to be honest, the new bitcoin fork bitcoin gold be the new hype project. So people will invest BCG instead of BCH. Avoid buying BCH.

Btc price is soaring high and it is the factor that BCH price is tumbling . It will still happen and tak e a dip further as btc prices keep moving upwards. As it was created on event of fork such coins might not have a very good future in terms of elasticity and its demand.

That is what they want you to think, so you dump your BCH at fire-sale prices.

Chinese government and Bitmain are likely working closely together on increasing their share of The Real Bitcoin pie (http://archive.is/yPH9c). Perhaps China will open the floodgates again when they are ready after all the fools have sold.

Have any of you ever played poker.

SegWit is an insecure altcoin, which will be stolen and discarded.

Bitcoin gold is some nonsense about ASIC resistance, which can’t exist. Equihash has been analysed.

All the forks of The Real Bitcoin (aka BTCSatoshi not BTCSegWit) will probably die eventually. Immutability of Bitcoin is golden. Everything else rusts.


Just like LTC $6 to $85 and NEO from pennies to $30. Yeah you’re a genius.

First time I have ever heard of BTCSatoshi, and you are simply not the first to claim the Real Bitcoin and you will hardly be the last. The real Bitcoin is what exists as the main chain, preferred by the people who use it most. It can be a fork if it ends up like that one day, it can be the old original chain. It does not matter. The real Bitcoin is not fixed, it will evolve. Immutable as ever, on the path/chain most chosen.

Mostly all btc forks are bs, just get rich quick schemes,
I hate what is happening to crypto lately...

There can be only one (team and btc).
Even worse - great alt project cannot swim up from under thousands of garbage projects.

People cant even read a WP today...

Bitcoin difficulty : 1.12 T (1120 G)
Bitcoin Cash difficulty : 91 G

1120  ...  1
91     ...  A
A= 1x91 /1120 = 0.08125

Actual BCC Price should be now :
1 BCC = 0.08125 BTC

I am not surprised. All bitcoin cash holders including miners were in for profit. Now bitcoin gold is coming and they will jump to it. They will take profit and get out. Same old story.

This happens with everything that is growing in this world. Like all the altcoins that are just created for specific purposes and then due to non-carefulness they are just ruined in nowhere. It seems easy but that create the panic and disturbance in crypto world. And often displays themselves as the dumps in market. They are just ruining crypto fame.

$5700 x 0.08125 = $463


The Real Bitcoin is the one the whales decide is the main chain. I do not think whales like insecure SegWit except if they can mine SegWit transactions as donations to themselves per Satoshi’s protocol wherein SegWit are “pay to anyone”.

The rest of us do not matter. We’re irrelevant. If you want democracy, then cryptocurrency is not the correct place to be.

---

Then SegWit has no value also because it is just a clone with some insecure scaling shit that will crash and burn. But are you holding SegWit lineage or real BTC protocol tokens? Do you even know? Just saying “BTC” is meaningless if you do not know the lineage of your tokens. SegWit lineage tokens can be hypothetically double-spent at any time in the future by miners.

But if you need to take profits on BTC at some nosebleed prices, what token will you buy? I would buy the one that is at ATL not one that is near an ATH.

Given all the uncertainty that could exist as to what BTC really is (is it SegWit, SegWit2x, or Satoshi protocol?), seems to me that a token which is entirely separated but essentially a Bitcoin clone with a scaling solution, may catch a bid as BTC moves to levels where some traders want to take some profits and buy something that is low so they can sell high.

Now imagine an attack on SegWit begins (by Bitmain?) to steal all the SegWit transactions and gains support because the booty will be shared with other miners. Wouldn’t there be a stampede to buy BCH? Why would they buy Bitcoin gold which is entirely unproven with a new PoW that has no mining cartel support. If you want Bitcoin gold, why not buy Monero instead then you get a GPU mined coin (for now) and some degree of anonymity as well. Also Monero has an algorithmically scaling block size and active ongoing development (albeit somewhat slow perhaps). So you just buying the name and hype of Bitcoin gold with Equihash.

Afaics, BCH is the only one that is unique. It has the support of the mining cartel who might end up being the one who capitalizes on the SegWit booty. And it is at an ATL. And BTC is moving towards a nosebleed phase transition ATH.

But maybe I am wrong and BCH will be scorned and has no utility as a trading vehicle. Then why does LTC catch a bid? Perhaps LTC has been around longer, more active development?

I don't know,I had high hopes with bitcoin cash,the price did go to like some 600-700$ but after the crash of all the crypto markets ,it hasnt been recovering since and its price is now a little over 300$. Now that bitcoin gold is coming,eventually bitcoin cash will have to go down  :( . But still I do have some hope left and maybe,it will recover on the long run,fingers crossed.

I sold at $800s. I expected it to decline. I bought more at $350. Probably premature. I should have waited for $240 - $290. But I was overworking, sleepless when I made that decision, so I was not as clear thinking as now.

I don’t have very high hopes for it. I’m not expecting it to take over and become the real Bitcoin. I am expecting another trade up to maybe $1000 to $1500, presuming the entire market does not collapse and traders take profits on BTC and want to trade into something undervalued.

I view BCH more as a safe haven away from attacks that could come on SegWit. And as a trading vehicle for profit taking on BTC. And as the only BTC clone airdrop with any legitimacy at all, given Bitmain’s support. And given that if anyone was going to attack SegWit with a mining attack, I would think Bitmain might be the one with such a scheme up their sleeve.

bch will continue to exist, we can not compare with Bitcoingold because it has not appeared, if more stable than bch then the bad possibilities are definitely there. I think bch will continue to innovate and increase value. We can see it with blockchain that began to welcome its existence.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/blockchaininfo-releases-full-bitcoin-cash-support-users-receive-coins

Also it is one the few coins that can still trade on ShapeShift. ShapeShift has been purging many of the ICOs tokens ostensibly due to securities regulation concerns.

miners expect Bitcoingold to come so bitcoincash falls rapidly.
I think Bitcoincash can not survive for a long time

Bitmain will abandon it  ???  :o

What is your source for that news?

One of the things I learned about investor psychology is that the majority is always dead wrong. With so many comments about the imminent death of BCH, we must be very close to a bottom and new move up.

---

And you know this was Bitmain’s plan all along to feign support for SegWit, but kill it in multiple steps.

The first step is yes killing 2x. The NY agreement was always a farce that fails in November. That was part of the plan.

The second step is attacking SegWit (http://archive.is/yPH9c).

Going to be a lot of shocked people around here when BCH hits $1500, just like when someone said buy LTC at $6 and it hit $85.

Following quotes are paraphrased to hide identity.


When the community decides to support a HF, that is also destroying immutability. But the 51% attack to take already confirmed SegWit donations is not even possible if users do not use a brain dead SegWit wallet which issues “pay to anyone” transactions. It is the creation of SegWit wallets which has enabled a booty to pile up which enables a 51% attack. That is why I said SegWit wallets are a security attack on Bitcoin. Yet you somehow think the drunk-on-koolaid community is important.

Your delusions about community are hilarious. You drink your slave masters’ koolaid.

There is no consensus until the whales have voted. The whales have not voted yet, they’re waiting for the SegWit booty to pile up.

There’s no damn way the whales are going to allow that SegWit crap. Absolutely zero. Blockstream is a gimmick to take BTC from fools who are fooled by the concept of democracy applied to cryptocurrency.

You claim you are for immutability but then you talk out two sides of your mouth in a duplicitous manner.

Are you for immutability or not?

The whales are. Go against them at your peril.

Do you really think those whiny faggots at Blockstream are relevant? The devil at Trilema who loves porn is in control (well he and other whales who hate democracy and love immutability). And you hate it don’t you because he is so immoral? Cryptocurrency is not about any one person’s morals. It is about protocol and game theory. Please. Understand. This.


There is no hardfork required for miners to take the SegWit donations ongoing. The hardfork is only to collect and double-spend the SegWit that was already confirmed in blocks. But even this “51% attack” is entirely legal in the protocol. A 51% attack is not an illegal outcome. The protocol is a competitive game theory and there is nothing illegal when adhering to the protocol. Not even immoral. Perfectly just.

You do not seem to understand that what ever is legal in the protocol is just and right and good. The law is the protocol, not your wishy-washy ambiguous idea of what the community decided.

The SegWit that is being issued is “pay to anyone”. Miners taking that while conforming to Satoshi’s protocol is not equivalent to mutating the protocol (in Satoshi’s protocol the SegWit transactions are “pay to anyone”). It is entirely within the protocol. Whereas increasing the money supply limit would change the protocol. So you’re incorrect to equate the two as functionally equivalent. One is protocol legal, the other is protocol illegal.


Incorrect. You can’t equate any fork to Satoshi’s protocol because no fork is ever final. This is why only Satoshi’s protocol can ever be the winner. Nothing else has any certain lasting stability. If the community idiotically approves a new protocol which creates a booty to fund a 51% attack, why are they surprised when their consensus is not stable? Lol. Really you’re smarter than this aren’t you.

You fundamentally do not understand that proof-of-work is never final. It is probabilistic. There is never any final community consensus.

You have some basic holes in your understanding of Byzantine systems. There are systems such as Byzantine Agreement which do reach finality but they have a liveness threshold and can stall. Proof-of-work is probabilistic and can never stall (unless there are no miners at all so we can say the liveness threshold is asymptotically ~0), but it is never final. My new decentralized ledger algorithm is also probabilistic but it is not proof-of-work and it is not proof-of-stake. It is something totally new which scales better, can’t be subverted by the whales, and which does not consume electricity.


No you fail to understand. The SegWit is going to be removed from BTC by miners taking it as donations, because flies go to honey and miners go to profitability of booties.

BCH is only going to benefit in that while BTC is being attacked, it will be a safe haven. And also for big blockers who do not want to return to 1MB as the SegWit scaling lie is totally obliterated.


Lol. Look at the Rube Goldberg machine they’ve created which is all for making donations to the miners and they’ve sold you the users on the idea that it is technological astute.  :D  :D  :D


I also told everyone in my private group that BTC would go back up to $5100+ before the alts started moving back up. Which is precisely what happened.

---

Follow-up discussion excerpted only for the most important parts and also again paraphased to conceal writing style:



Well in the case of SegWit is very simple. The reality is that SegWit creates a booty that incentivizes (funds!) a 51% attack. The Bitcoin whitepaper states the security assumption that miners will not have the private keys to most transactions otherwise the security is destroyed. So SegWit is a direct attack on Bitcoin’s original security model.

Other bug fixes to Bitcoin which were apparently accepted by The Real Bitcoin, apparently improved security not weakened it.

My stance is that any other changes are altcoins and should not be marketed as Bitcoin. If we want to improve a cryptocurrency then airdrop it and fork it. But name it something else. Do not cheat like Blockstream did and force a contentious fight which to some extent arguably stalled the entire sector for 2 years.

Cryptocurrencies that have ongoing developers (and able to be exchanged for other currencies not just spent on goods & services so thus having an expectation of capital appreciation) are securities and have to be regulated. See the new SAFT whitepaper which I recently analysed for more on that.


If the initial protocol has not been designed to be secure against 51% attacks, then its not viable. And this is why I explained recently at the inception of this discussion about SegWit, that long-term proof-of-work is not viable.

My point is that the ability of the community to HF is design flaw of proof-of-work. And it will get worse as transaction fees rise relative to block rewards, for the game theory research reasons I recently shared.


SegWit was a HF. Any fork which continues where SegWit forked off, is Satoshi’s protocol. So the former is an altcoin and the latter is Bitcoin.

Actually afaik the “pay to anyone” aspect of SegWit is compatible with Satoshi’s protocol (and allows the miners to take them as donations) and thus really any fork containing SegWit transactions is not a HF, except that SegWit also included other changes which required a HF. In any case, a fork which accepts SegWit transactions as donations is not a fork of Satoshi. Thus no HF ever occurred. SegWit is the only HF here in this case.

Any HF which funds and basically forces economically returning to the former protocol is self-defeating and responsible for its own demise.

So the objectivity here is that the possibility of HFs remove all objectivity. Thus the ability of 51% attacks creates subjectivity and thus the only objective solution is that all HFs should be considered altcoins. No anointing by politics. All dispute is solved economically in free markets when all HFs compete against each other as altcoins.

Any one who wants to create new functionality can airdrop to an altcoin or create an altcoin with an entirely new distribution.

Otherwise all we have is discord. Creating altcoins enables the market to vote with its money. Nobody should be anointed except by the market. Blockstream employed deception and other tactics to try to subvert the free market process, but they are going to have their heads handed to them on a silver platter as they deserve for their inept and corrupt malfeasance.

The free market works.


True only because Rube Goldberg machines self-destruct.

In software adding complexity can never be slowed down (it is like a snowball that requires more and more fixes and changes) except by extricating the cancer. So your assumption was misplaced on the face of it, but you’re rescued by the fact that complexity bloat is complete failure in software engineering and will thus cause immutability by self-destruction.

Very interesting. I respect your knowledge, Hyperme.sh  :o
It was supposed to be some bland, boring topic, a question asked, a few more or less educated guesses as answers, but thanks to your involvement we were given a chance to learn a lot about Bitcoin. I must say, I was getting confused in all that fork drama, now everything is much clearer. Can we have more? In the meantime, going back to page 1, need to read it all again.

If bitcoin dies then cash bitcoin gold not even born. Now the prices of all altcoins will go down. This is because bitcoin began its rapid growth. Everyone wants to make money and so the market altcoins do not have enough money. After stopping the growth of bitcoin will start a backlash and the price of altcoins will go up and the price of bitcoin will decline.

What i dont think btc gold will be affected even if btc cash would go down eventually. They are separate coins but derived from the same coin. Along with other altcoin, they dont affect each other even if their platform goes up or down.

Told you so:

I think BCH will recover a bit after a chaotic and crazy november. People are pulling out of it because there are way too many bitcoins out there and they want some free coins in case the fork creates two separate chains, but eventually it'll come back

So , in the short term what would be the best play for a small holder of btc to take advantage of all the up coming btc-alt coin versions?

Follow-up:


Yeah I had vaguely remembered they reversed their decision not to because of threat of class-action lawsuit. And that person quoted above is incorrect, the distribution starts in January 2018:

https://news.bitcoin.com/coinbase-bitcoin-cash-withdrawals-january-2018/

https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2853600-bitcoin-cash---frequently-asked-questions

It is because I think that the miners know that they will be generating money from bitcoin till long enough time, while the alts that are created from the bitcoin split are those which gives a quicker money to miners with a limited time option. The miners are switching just for the sake of earning extra money. Now they will go for the gold one. But we can't blame miners for it because they are here to earn money as well but it they misguided someone then they could be  held guilty.

BCash always reminds me of the Big PandaCoin Pump and Dump of 2013... Which of you kids even know about PandaCoin(s) anymore. Thats what will happen to Bcash in 5 years.

bch was created and subverted bitcoin but how many people expected it and completely failed. When it comes to the price of double coin eth and many people go to buy this price, but the conclusion is that the account of those who have a lot of deficit now when btc is increasing then it is down without braking and probably it will be like dong etc after the hard ford of eth its value will be reduced soon when bitcoi hard ford it is unknown what bcc will hit at bottom

i think it will not die, just see etc is still market top ten nowadays, the interest group behind will not give up bch before they get enough profits

indeed bitcoincash now is not strong anymore, the price is getting down,
even now ethereum occupy second position in terms of price

People will not read fuck all.. let alone understand it.
The simple folk out there are here for one reason, to profit.
What are they going to do ? Probably dump those Airdropped BCH coins.. it's why they came here.
These are not crypto supporters.. they are impatient short sighted STUPID little profiteers.
Often teens and children.

Problem is they will ask them selves *maybe.. what is the difference between choice a and b ?
If it can not be summarized in 2 sentences or less they are gone.. dumping and walking.
A more superior coin then becomes irrelevant.

I thought you guys posted some interesting comments here on this but it was all very long.
And i know for a fact most of the noobs will not bother reading it all or understand it either.
What ? Didn't you notice half of crypto can barely manage basic English ?

It's still an Altcoin.. and ALT's get dumped for BTC profit.
It's how it is.

It has an active community so I do not think it will disappear, it will remain like ethereum classic. But, nevertheless, I wouldn't invest on it.

The people in bitcoin cash or BCH are just going out and they are done with that altcoin because that is all about the hype of bitcoin cash. They said that bitcoin cash is profitable but look on the results of bitcoin cash and you can see that in the first few weeks the bitcoin cash is going up but right now it is just like the altcoins that called shitcoin in the market.

To save BCH from going to $0, you must burn it (https://goo.gl/z8djUM)!

After getting an ATH at nearly $1,000, BCH retreated in a prolonged, non-stopping bleeding, pretty much every support have failed to hold the losses for the forked coin.

We all know the true price of BCH. It just a game from big investors.

I was kind of predictable it happened so far and everyone wants to jump on board. To me BTC is the mother of coins it is hard for it drop and die as rumors  reflected. One thing is clear though never panic sell.

This is what was expected by most guru of digital currency. BCH cant survive much longer on good price and is bound to be dumped. Firstly people dumped it because they just got it for free. Secondly, now there is another fork around the corner and this time it will be Bitcoin Gold which will be distributed for free.

I think No, today November 15th, 2017 Bitcoin Cash has still a value of $1,200 per coin. I would say it's a good message for investors and supporters of Bitcoin Cash and Altcoin because Bitcoin can have a close rival anytime and any day since last week. Bitcoin Cash value if dropping then it's a bad sign.

A game? I think it's not because when Bitcoin hit hard the market, those Big Whales of traders are making high pump for Bitcoin to increase rapidly because Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency is indeed the future of economy and trade. The thing they did in Bitcoin Cash is totally the same with Bitcoin since early this year.
Investors are doing what for them can give huge amount of return of investments.

Guys from South Korea did not let Bitcoin Cash bleeding. Everything was done to make this altcoin growing. Meanwhile, the chaos and true hype around it finished. The fork happened. I suppose BCH will come to its stable price, maybe $900 or even less.

It's already a Bitcoin Cash character. We can see a few months ago when Bitcoin Cash rose in price. Bitcoin cash rose to 1000 $ but back down to 300 $. Indeed Bitcoin Cash is a remarkable coin in fluctuations.

Said it in so many posts the guys in bitcoin cash are whales and they are just pumping the price. Guess the no go of segwit gave them an open window to score big on "bitcoin cash going mainstream" not... They cleared a ton of money