Bitcoin Forum

Cross posted from newbies with permission of OP (not quoted for readability, but I'll edit if this is confusing)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=227625.0

OP is SwedErik https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=127256


Found the threads about KNCminer on this forum and since I know a little about this company. Well actually the formal company "kncminer" is soo new so the one I know about is orsoc, which is
one of it's two parent companies. The other parent company that is owned by two guys do I not know much about, but they does not seem to be have with anything similar in the past, but has worked in the financial sector...

I created an account and will post what I know. I saw a good summary posted by someone who attended the "openday":


I can just confirm everything above and start with the "posstive" things. I do not know the relation between ORSoC or KnCMiner, but I can confirm that ORSoC has been around for quite some time and has made profit in the last 3-5 years. In range of $80k-$250k. They do various things but profile themselfe as fpga consultants. I honestly do not belive that they are trying to make an obvious scam (like; scam people and flee the country), but I would NEVER pay a single dollar in advance. See below for reasons;
They have a history with the "openrisc" cpu that they have been promoting for many years. People who are paying them for a-yet-to-be-produced asic should know that this is not the first time they are collecting money in advance for an asic design. Previous try was with a promise to produce an openrisc cpu (at a MUCH less advance process than .28), they gathered some money from the community (the "campaign" may still be active, I do not know, google for it!). However, when the project did not take off, I think most of the money just went into their company...  :-[
As far as I know there was nu public records for the accounting, allthought it was "pitched" as a "community project".

Among other local companies within the same sector, they are quite well known for being "close to impossible to work with" and quite a few companies has bad relations with them. Ask around!!!
My personal belief is some of the people have little touch with reality and tends to be better on producing visions rather than code/hw! That's why I said above that I do not thing they are doing an "obvious scam", but I fear that the result may be the same.

Among the five people listed I think would say that four of them are 100% "non-technical". I guess others are also working in producing working code. To my knowledge no one has ever been involved in asic production before (I could be wrong on this) and they are now about to go directly to a 28nm tape out... . Yeah right!
But since there are quite a few "non-technical" people on the project (at least relativly) I'm not suprised that they do a good job in marketing and come out with new ideas about lotto and other stuff instead of actually showing working stuff.
Or is it 100% confirmed that the mars prototype is actually is working a specified speed??! If soo, why is it not up for sale?

Some other thoughts and things I would think is an absolute must before even going public with something like this:

* I read about canceling mars.... well, if you can not even meet deadlines or results on the fpga, why even bother moving along to an asic? It's a bit contradictive when they claim they basically will use the same pcb for asic as fpga, but they need to focus on asic. To my knowledge it more or less standard to verify that the design is working in fpga (at much lower clock/density) before moving to asic. Why not release this then if it's so magical... Even if the fpga is working PERFECTLY it's a LONG way before doing a tape out (escpecially at 28nm)...
* At least a few people with experince of asic production.
* SOME budget that at least shows that there is a possibility that they can handle a production run at 28nm.... Are you guys aware of the HUGE costs involved??! My guess would be several millions of USD.... however, I have not either done anything similar so it's a guess, but should at least give SOME indication.
* + Some financial backing for doing a tape out at 28nm.... not just relying on massive preorders.
* + some proof that the company and owners really risk their own money, not money collected from users preorders
* It's not that many FAB:s that do 28nm, is it public who they will use? If not, if this is legit, why should it be keept secret? All chip manufactures are quite open about who produce their devices.

Well, these are just my thought, based on what I know and heard from others in the industry. Sure it would be cool if they could produce such a device, but I highly doubt it based on what I know and have read about kncminer. If it sounds to good to be true, it is probably to good to be true.  ;)

Tell that to anyone who pre-ordered a BFL product.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter

they also realize this is a race and feel they have to go to 28nm or not bother.  That tells you about ASICminer's growth... not sure Avalon/DIY rolls out as strong as everyone thinks it will and we all know BFL is BFL

their products are offering close to what was the original BFL minirig in price per Gh.   

KNcMiner seems honest enough, and has answered about 1001 questions posed to them. They look legit to me; open about their plans and details. I think their production schedule has to be a bit optimistic, but I think they'll pull through without a BFL-sized delay...

I don't see there past production as a huge red flag. It's something to keep in mind as a factor, sure. But every company has to start somewhere. I mean look, if Avalon went from basically nothing of a company, a few young motivated guys, to what they've accomplished, [insert another 10 examples here], then I don't think it's it is as far-fetched to believe a company positioned and as experienced as KNCminer seems -- to me --conceivably able to step up to the next level and expand their company, and deliver on their promises.

I think Klondike boards, Bitfury and KNC will all materialize, and folks are just a bit defensive these days (rightfully) because of all the scams... but ya, have to allow for the idea that things could be changing for the better when it comes to options for asics.

AFAIK OpenRisc was a community development project that they accepted donations for and not a straight pre-order project. I think it's a little unfair to compare the two. But of course, if there was NO risk involved, everyone would mortgage their house for 350 gh/s miners for $7000 so I assume people are aware of the possibility that they do not deliver. As for any pre-order it's a risk/reward calculation.

My 2 Satoshi

I have several orders involving Avalon tech and for now I consider that a gamble as well. They are behind on batch 2 and 3 shipping and no one has heard a single peep on when the chips will arrive.

All in all, a name like 'open risk' sounds quite befitting then!

Can't knock them for their honesty...;)

That's what high risk high reward means... It has the potential for a high reward, but with a high risk of losing.

hmmmm they have very much evaded each and every funding question. By the looks of it, they have very little skin in this.

Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...

So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

This is my general sentiment as well. They've got the capabilities and general "know-how" to develop an FPGA device, so (like BFL) they're stepping up to market / develop an ASIC one.

However, right out the gate they're using preorder money to fund the development of the chips and PCBs. I don't have a problem with this, but as we've seen with bASIC and Avalon, it all comes down to how you manage the funding. You could either go under (hopefully not kicking and screaming along the way) or end up developing a proper product.

My intuition tells me a September shipping period isn't going to happen, so I'm banking on December / early 2014. It's certainly possible of course..they'll just have to work super hard over these next few months.

Plasmoske's words ring true.."high risk, high reward".

The BS is strong with that one. Also the shill accounts numerous are. I can live with the BS as long as it's marketing speak, not outright... well BS. Shill accounts depict a more shady issue.

Let's hope for the "investors" that KNCMINER will ship what they claim, when they promised it. Right now, I'm treating it like toxic stock. (But hey, even junk bonds do pan out sometimes.)

Wait and see.

easy: when invested into knc it is bad for your roi when too many people also invest in those machines. it is not only "homo homini lupus est" but also
jupiter jupitii lupus est

you bitcoinorama actually hurt my roi much more than the knc-haters.  :-*

How's that?!

What could he mean? what could he mean?

Wild guess: you being their best sales rep? ;)

It's not bizarre at all... those group buy founders finish with 15-20% of hashing power of the unit without paying heck all and just collect money from other people to pay for it and enjoy rewards.

So, risk is 0 for them, it's not like they are afraid or don't have funds to buy full one but want partners for it, they don't pay nothing and if it comes good have 15-20% of it without paying a dime. Some of them will get 100 GH for free if KNC make it. That's if they're not scammers and take full 100% of it, lol.

An coolio, I'm enthusiastic and just want to see this project happen by a group of acknowledged experts, and those considering investing to understand the pros and cons. I'm fully aware of the risks, but I take no responsibility for others decisions, and I've berated those that look like their investing without adequate research. I've said that enough times before and during opening of payment. Everyone's responsible for their own research and the fact that I've laid a few hundred down on flights there and back in a day means I'm taking mine seriously. That is not a freakin' advertisement, that's just my own bucket list of confidence criteria I have set myself. Their appears to be plenty of dump people with cash. I both; fortunately, and unfortunately fit in the opposite category.

Take it as you will. Whoever meets me on Monday will be able to vouch whether I appear sincere in person. I'll be the guy with bloodshot eyes due to the minimal sleep I will have from now, until then. If you want me to upload my boarding pass with pictures from the day, then not a problem.

KS, you're still bitching, yet my inbox has still has no further questions to be asked on the day sent to it. Despite numerous offers. Opportunity's there; put up, or shut up. If you won't pull your finger out to attend, I'm more than happy to ask new questions, or revised questions with what you now know, or repeat questions you want more clarity on, on your behalf.

Just PM me questions by tomorrow night (UK time) and I'll print out and record the answers.

i was kidding. when knc gets just enough orders to get going, those who will buy those will have a decent roi if difficulty isn´t at 500 mio by september. but if knc gets run over with orders and they decide to push all those orders through 500 mio difficulty will look small. the more jupiters in the universe, the lesser the individual jupiter shines.
(psst: secret plan... after you attend the open day post a big SCAM into the threads. that will rock... & shake off the weak hands...)

I think TSMC won't even talk to KNC if they have less than 50 million USD upfront for 28nm process.

Who can afford to use 28nm? Samsung, Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Altera etc. All are multibillion dollar companies. You think a tiny Swedish company can afford 28nm?

It's so unrealistic that they are aiming for 28nm.

Even 40nm ACIS bitcoin miner seems so unrealistic for me at the moment, let alone 28nm.

*I* am bitchin'?

lol

see 600watt's reply, maybe he's bitchin' too? you're stressed out man, take a breather or sth.

He did not reply to my question regarding his relationship to ORSoC. I'd like a bit more background info on this character. I'm not particularly fond of KNCMINER/ORSoC but posting potentially fake testimonies is not helping to debunk scams.

I only cross -posted SwedErik's comments as he was in newbie jail and it looked relevant to this subforum. He's only 13 minutes shy of Jr Member, so maybe he'll come over here and explain.

Sure thing, just quoting you FYI.

I also asked in newbie jail, no news.

Finnaly got 4hours logged in time and below is the reply I just posted in newbie forum regarding this:

Let me correct this quote.

High risk equals low chance of high rewards, high chance of losing your entire investment.

Nice PDF, gives a good image of costs. Only problem is that it is a year old. Let me know when you got some better data to work with. And add a in-depth analysis instead of a hunch from the tooth fairy.

Unfortunally there is very little public info/pricing availiable for such advanced processes as 28nm. Yes, it's a year old and most likely cost for producing a dedicated BTC mining chip. But if you look at the pdf and the previous gen. tech you should get an IDEA about current costs. Even if they will be quite a lot lower it still sounds unrealistic to me... and yet they claim that enough money has allready been received to start production...  :-\

isn't that two years old?

2012 was the transition year and 2013 has been the high output year for 28nm.   Coming in late summer should be a good spot for kncminer to get everything since the backlogs of 2012 should be cleared

costs have a lot of variables..  not sure you'll get straight answers on that

How about de-anonimyzing yourself to a trusted third party? (hence not publicly)

I'm not sure how the pdf relates to the BTC ASICs, the prices are way higher than anyone could possibly fund. We're talking an order or two of magnitude. Also, I would think they're working with Altera and not Xilinx.

The ORSoC boards harbor the same Cyclone IV FPGAs (22K for OpenRisc, 115K for the Mars) and the OpenRisc core was developed on Quintus II (Altera), so I would think they banged the code on the Cyclone and used Hardcopy V (Altera) as they said the ASIC "maker" would take the FPGA code and make it into an ASIC, without the intervention of ORSoC. Looks like the Altera process to me (could be eASIC but they aren't talking about their 28nm on the website yet). Not sure about project cost but they obviously wanted at least 1.5M USD to start the Mars, so I would guess they really needed 0.5M (= profit margin - I'm not really sure what kind of price they could get for only 2500 FPGAs and sell the Mars for 2800$ with 48 FPGAs in it, not even counting PCB, assembly, shipping, NRE, other overhead).

I'm not sure I see it as unrealistic as others, even after assuming the PDF is accurate to this day. ASICMiner built their chips at 130nm for under $200k; Avalon is at 110nm and they've been able to do just fine on a couple thousand preorders ($1m+ overall value); BFL built on 65nm with preorders valuing $10m+.

Naturally as the architecture shrunk, the cost to produce the chips increased (and obviously it depends on how many chips you're looking to produce in the first place). If KnC can maintain a high preorder count (at a minimum $3,000 each), I don't see why they couldn't begin to afford 28nm...and maybe an outside investor could also play a part in subsidizing the cost.

(Niggle: Quartus II not Quintus II)

So they have gone down the "Structured ASIC" route. It won't give the performance of a full custom (more expensive per chip), but mask costs will be much cheaper since its just the metallization/vias (hence its cheap enough to be relaistic at 28nm process). Honestly I'm surprised no one else went this route. Still its a tradeoff between up-front cost and per-unit cost.

Oh wow, I did not realize that there was such discussion here on bitcointalk!

If interested, I made a post a few hours ago on reddit about the technicalities kncminer has to deal with, as well as some explanations at what some of the wording means:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g0yvf/feathercoin_going_through_a_real_51_attack_people/cafpzm9


For some reason I myself have not come to such a realization, though I had no idea they were using Altera FPGA's. But keep in mind that if they were doing just the FPGA conversion using the HardCopy process from Altera, they wouldn't really need ORSoC, as the conversion is not that complicated. Heck, they even have the correct feature size on their website, "HardCopy V".
http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.html

If this is true, that I have to admit that I am somewhat disappointed since this is not a full blown asic but instead just an FPGA conversion, so we wouldn't be getting anywhere near the performance that could have been possible. But this does satisfy the issue with them having enough money to do a 28nm full custom asic as doing such an FPGA to asic conversion is far far cheaper.

I can't say for sure but Altera FPGAs seem to be on every ORSoC design and the HardCopy process flowchart is consistent with what I gleaned in the "conversations". I could be totally wrong of course, but it looks to fit nicely. (28nm, FPGA, Quartus II, letting the ASIC maker do the ASIC from FPGA).

Yeah, brainfart with all the Roman numerals...  ::)
Quartus II should really be called Decimus or Quintus... :)

I think Daggeteo said (rather showed, with a ruler) in the KNC Open Day thread that the finished ASIC would be about 75x75mm! They will use 48 in the Jupiter (can't find where I get the number from, save that it's the same as in the dead Mars).

The chips would need to be a bit more than 7GH/s each, with a 20W TDP (they claim the Jupiter will use less than 1000W). Given the Cyclone IV E 115K they used in the Mars was only capable of 150MH/s, I wonder how many cores they'll have on that package (and I worry about the yield, give the sheer size of the thing).

You are right. But if they are able to reach desired performance/consumption their chips will be one of the best ones. And after that they may be able to get enough funding for full asic.

They are -not- using a structured ASIC:

https://i.imgur.com/qXaaNPe.png

jut fyi

if u want to use a standard cell,the minimum timing to produce it is around 6 months

and this is the minimum

so i m doubtful about their promise to deliver in sept

And how many months do you think they've been planning and working on this? Reveal of work =/= start of work.

and whats this?

http://hackaday.com/2012/06/05/open-source-graphics-card/

http://www.efytimes.com/e1/creativenews.asp?edid=51624

http://www.reddit.com/r/ECE/comments/ulbwr/orsoc_graphics_accelerator_an_open_source_lgpl/

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTExMzE

nice one !

ITT : Disinfo shills trying to make money via the expense of others

Correction

ITF(orum) : Disinfo shills trying to make money via the expense of others

Correction

ITC(ommunity) : Disinfo shills trying to make money via the expense of others

Orsoc open cores initiative is nothing new.

i know, but they really already had the experience with FPGAs and ASICs

That's only part of the equation. You have design, production, administration, support etc

Maybe they can design it, but can they make it?

When it's made, can they manage the orders/shipping/payment etc?

When they fail, can they give the right support?

you want to say that you have a good support from Avalon and BFL?

Did I mention any other ASIC company? No
Did I imply what you said? No

Getting one step done more or less right does not guarantee the others will be done right or at all. These steps are all separate and all important, necessary things that each and every company should be able to do, so, again, completing one step is no guarantee that the others will be completed and no guarantee for success.

To stay on topic, KNCMINER borked the ordering process, which is really not difficult to implement and that worries me about the administration/support bit. They're in early production stage, so we'll see what happens there.

Yo, update!:

Re: BitcoinOrama Report on the KnCminer/OrSoC Open-day Mon 10/06/13 (Stockholm)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232852.msg2503674#msg2503674

Haz videoz!!

If the standard by which vendors are to be judged are those two dysfunctional businesses, everybody has big problems going forward.

That said, everything I've seen and read indicates that they will try to reset the bar.  And in this business at this time, try is probably all we can ask for.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what's wrong here, other than the reddit is some guys discussing rendering fails on some Mozilla hack they've done.

What am I missing?

they didn't mess up the ordering process, you just didnt like it.   You wanted some realtime exact status and they just want to put down some rules and then go back and sort it out. same difference

you have to know people are going game any system put up..  how about those customers that placed like 8 different pre-orders in so they could sell them later one by one.. kncminer had to deal with these things and when they send out the next note it'll be pretty clear that had a handle of it from the start

Apparently only 15-20 pre-order spots were sold by the end of open-day itself, and thus the pre-order window closing point. Most chose to buy. Sam said this last Monday to all those in attendance.

I'm sorry, this confuses me a bit.  It seems to be a contradictory statement.  Which leads me to believe I don't understand what you're saying.

What do you mean end of open-day? Was that 2 weeks ago when they first started accepting payment? I had a pre-order before but the number is 1801.  I paid within the first 48 hours hoping to be a part of the lottery drawing.  As you might imagine I'm getting a bit excited waiting to learn what my order placement is.  Do you think I'd be in the mystical first 500? 

Yes, Charles?  This is Goldman Sachs calling.  You've been recommended to us as someone who might be a perfect fit for our Institutional Investor Risk Hedge Products program.  Can we talk?

very nice to hear - it was a nice gesture and glad that they didnt get burned.  It seemed like a circus at first

Haven't a clue, but by the sounds of the numbers they intend to produce daily, any delay would be insignificant in the scheme of things...

you have missed nothing. i wanted to post that they have made good work in the past and show that the topic opener did not write the truth .
of course, i wanted to post all i have found and from where. Of cause this there is the mozilla bug. And of course the mozilla issue has nothing to do with the opengpu

here 2 more:

http://hackaday.com/2012/06/05/open-source-graphics-card/

http://www.efytimes.com/e1/creativenews.asp?edid=51624

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. They had clearly indicated on their website that the pre-orders were in fact only a measure of interest. Then they perfectly clearly stated that your pre-orders were in fact cancelled so the real pre-orders could take place. Then they clearly told everyone who had pre-ordered that their pre-orders were in fact not in the order they thought they were but they were so chummy you could resell your pre-order number to get your final pre-order number, which was in fact not the real pre-order number.

You do realize the order process should be like "click on the order button and you're in the queue" right?

::)