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Author Topic: About KNCMiner  (Read 7282 times)
J35st3r (OP)
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June 07, 2013, 12:19:02 PM
Last edit: June 07, 2013, 12:45:42 PM by J35st3r
 #1

Cross posted from newbies with permission of OP (not quoted for readability, but I'll edit if this is confusing)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=227625.0

OP is SwedErik https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=127256

Yes, please crosspost... I still have to be logged in for two more hours...  Undecided

There is quite a few things I read there that I could/would like to comment on, but it's not possible now..

Found the threads about KNCminer on this forum and since I know a little about this company. Well actually the formal company "kncminer" is soo new so the one I know about is orsoc, which is
one of it's two parent companies. The other parent company that is owned by two guys do I not know much about, but they does not seem to be have with anything similar in the past, but has worked in the financial sector...

I created an account and will post what I know. I saw a good summary posted by someone who attended the "openday":

Quote
There's just not much info to tell.

    Are ORSoC part of KnCMiner? Yes they are.
    Is ORSoC a legit company? Yes it is.
    Is ORSoC's area of expertise desgning FPGAs, ASICs and embedded systems? Yes it is.
    Is there a working FPGA prototype hashing at 6.2GH/s? Yes there is.
    Is there an ASIC prototype? No there isn't.
    What's the plan? To make the ASIC from the FPGA, order the chips with preorder money, and send them directly to assembly.
    Are there any gerbers for the ASIC PCB's, etc. that can be showed to us? No, they say they ASIC PCBs will be just based on the FPGA PCBs.
    Is this feasible? Mmmm, yeah, why not. That was BFL's plan too - right?
    Is this extremely expensive, knowing they are planning to do 28nm? Yes it is. VERY expensive.
    Is this project at least x10 bigger in terms of revenue streams, etc. compared to anything else ORSoC has done before? Yes it is. It's a huge project for a tiny company.


I can just confirm everything above and start with the "posstive" things. I do not know the relation between ORSoC or KnCMiner, but I can confirm that ORSoC has been around for quite some time and has made profit in the last 3-5 years. In range of $80k-$250k. They do various things but profile themselfe as fpga consultants. I honestly do not belive that they are trying to make an obvious scam (like; scam people and flee the country), but I would NEVER pay a single dollar in advance. See below for reasons;
They have a history with the "openrisc" cpu that they have been promoting for many years. People who are paying them for a-yet-to-be-produced asic should know that this is not the first time they are collecting money in advance for an asic design. Previous try was with a promise to produce an openrisc cpu (at a MUCH less advance process than .28), they gathered some money from the community (the "campaign" may still be active, I do not know, google for it!). However, when the project did not take off, I think most of the money just went into their company...  Embarrassed
As far as I know there was nu public records for the accounting, allthought it was "pitched" as a "community project".

Among other local companies within the same sector, they are quite well known for being "close to impossible to work with" and quite a few companies has bad relations with them. Ask around!!!
My personal belief is some of the people have little touch with reality and tends to be better on producing visions rather than code/hw! That's why I said above that I do not thing they are doing an "obvious scam", but I fear that the result may be the same.

Among the five people listed I think would say that four of them are 100% "non-technical". I guess others are also working in producing working code. To my knowledge no one has ever been involved in asic production before (I could be wrong on this) and they are now about to go directly to a 28nm tape out... . Yeah right!
But since there are quite a few "non-technical" people on the project (at least relativly) I'm not suprised that they do a good job in marketing and come out with new ideas about lotto and other stuff instead of actually showing working stuff.
Or is it 100% confirmed that the mars prototype is actually is working a specified speed??! If soo, why is it not up for sale?

Some other thoughts and things I would think is an absolute must before even going public with something like this:

* I read about canceling mars.... well, if you can not even meet deadlines or results on the fpga, why even bother moving along to an asic? It's a bit contradictive when they claim they basically will use the same pcb for asic as fpga, but they need to focus on asic. To my knowledge it more or less standard to verify that the design is working in fpga (at much lower clock/density) before moving to asic. Why not release this then if it's so magical... Even if the fpga is working PERFECTLY it's a LONG way before doing a tape out (escpecially at 28nm)...
* At least a few people with experince of asic production.
* SOME budget that at least shows that there is a possibility that they can handle a production run at 28nm.... Are you guys aware of the HUGE costs involved??! My guess would be several millions of USD.... however, I have not either done anything similar so it's a guess, but should at least give SOME indication.
* + Some financial backing for doing a tape out at 28nm.... not just relying on massive preorders.
* + some proof that the company and owners really risk their own money, not money collected from users preorders
* It's not that many FAB:s that do 28nm, is it public who they will use? If not, if this is legit, why should it be keept secret? All chip manufactures are quite open about who produce their devices.

Well, these are just my thought, based on what I know and heard from others in the industry. Sure it would be cool if they could produce such a device, but I highly doubt it based on what I know and have read about kncminer. If it sounds to good to be true, it is probably to good to be true.  Wink

1Jest66T6Jw1gSVpvYpYLXR6qgnch6QYU1 NumberOfTheBeast ... go on, give it a try Grin
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June 07, 2013, 12:51:24 PM
 #2

High risk, high rewards.

Tell that to anyone who pre-ordered a BFL product.
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June 07, 2013, 12:55:29 PM
 #3

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter
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June 07, 2013, 02:41:06 PM
 #4

Why not direct these questions in an email to KnCMiner themselves and ask for answers. Are you just trying to educate people that are thinking about buying from Knc?

If so then your information is a little off. They have a working FPGA (Confirmed working from people that actually visited during the 5th) It was hashing at the rate they said it would (A little over at 6.2 instead of 6)

They decided their resources would be better used by focusing on the ASIC instead of giving out $2000 vouchers for an FPGA that would cost $2800.

Because they scapped the FPGA with the $2000 vouchers, now they have no income and had to switch to Pre-Orders (Which I disagree with but can see why they had to open the order book after taking the mars out).

You can come to your own conclusions on why they took the Mars out but logic dictates that $2800 for an FPGA that would be obsolete in 1-2 months would almost be a bigger risk than just a preorder.

they also realize this is a race and feel they have to go to 28nm or not bother.  That tells you about ASICminer's growth... not sure Avalon/DIY rolls out as strong as everyone thinks it will and we all know BFL is BFL

their products are offering close to what was the original BFL minirig in price per Gh.   

~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~Play Boardgames for Bitcoins!!~~BTC~~GAMBIT~~BTC~~ Something I say help? Donate BTC! 1KN1K1xStzsgfYxdArSX4PEjFfcLEuYhid
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June 07, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
 #5

KNcMiner seems honest enough, and has answered about 1001 questions posed to them. They look legit to me; open about their plans and details. I think their production schedule has to be a bit optimistic, but I think they'll pull through without a BFL-sized delay...

I don't see there past production as a huge red flag. It's something to keep in mind as a factor, sure. But every company has to start somewhere. I mean look, if Avalon went from basically nothing of a company, a few young motivated guys, to what they've accomplished, [insert another 10 examples here], then I don't think it's it is as far-fetched to believe a company positioned and as experienced as KNCminer seems -- to me --conceivably able to step up to the next level and expand their company, and deliver on their promises.

I think Klondike boards, Bitfury and KNC will all materialize, and folks are just a bit defensive these days (rightfully) because of all the scams... but ya, have to allow for the idea that things could be changing for the better when it comes to options for asics.



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June 07, 2013, 03:05:07 PM
 #6

AFAIK OpenRisc was a community development project that they accepted donations for and not a straight pre-order project. I think it's a little unfair to compare the two. But of course, if there was NO risk involved, everyone would mortgage their house for 350 gh/s miners for $7000 so I assume people are aware of the possibility that they do not deliver. As for any pre-order it's a risk/reward calculation.

My 2 Satoshi
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June 07, 2013, 03:06:46 PM
 #7

Why not direct these questions in an email to KnCMiner themselves and ask for answers. Are you just trying to educate people that are thinking about buying from Knc?

If so then your information is a little off. They have a working FPGA (Confirmed working from people that actually visited during the 5th) It was hashing at the rate they said it would (A little over at 6.2 instead of 6)

They decided their resources would be better used by focusing on the ASIC instead of giving out $2000 vouchers for an FPGA that would cost $2800.

Because they scapped the FPGA with the $2000 vouchers, now they have no income and had to switch to Pre-Orders (Which I disagree with but can see why they had to open the order book after taking the mars out).

You can come to your own conclusions on why they took the Mars out but logic dictates that $2800 for an FPGA that would be obsolete in 1-2 months would almost be a bigger risk than just a preorder.

they also realize this is a race and feel they have to go to 28nm or not bother.  That tells you about ASICminer's growth... not sure Avalon/DIY rolls out as strong as everyone thinks it will and we all know BFL is BFL

their products are offering close to what was the original BFL minirig in price per Gh.   

I have several orders involving Avalon tech and for now I consider that a gamble as well. They are behind on batch 2 and 3 shipping and no one has heard a single peep on when the chips will arrive.
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June 07, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
 #8

All in all, a name like 'open risk' sounds quite befitting then!

Can't knock them for their honesty...Wink

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June 08, 2013, 09:41:46 AM
 #9

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter
That's what high risk high reward means... It has the potential for a high reward, but with a high risk of losing.
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June 08, 2013, 11:24:17 AM
 #10

Why not direct these questions in an email to KnCMiner themselves and ask for answers. Are you just trying to educate people that are thinking about buying from Knc?

If so then your information is a little off. They have a working FPGA (Confirmed working from people that actually visited during the 5th) It was hashing at the rate they said it would (A little over at 6.2 instead of 6)

They decided their resources would be better used by focusing on the ASIC instead of giving out $2000 vouchers for an FPGA that would cost $2800.

Because they scapped the FPGA with the $2000 vouchers, now they have no income and had to switch to Pre-Orders (Which I disagree with but can see why they had to open the order book after taking the mars out).

You can come to your own conclusions on why they took the Mars out but logic dictates that $2800 for an FPGA that would be obsolete in 1-2 months would almost be a bigger risk than just a preorder.

hmmmm they have very much evaded each and every funding question. By the looks of it, they have very little skin in this.
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June 08, 2013, 11:37:12 AM
 #11

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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June 08, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
 #12

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?
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June 08, 2013, 12:09:59 PM
Last edit: June 08, 2013, 12:51:25 PM by Bitcoinorama
 #13

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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June 08, 2013, 02:49:59 PM
 #14

KNcMiner seems honest enough, and has answered about 1001 questions posed to them. They look legit to me; open about their plans and details. I think their production schedule has to be a bit optimistic, but I think they'll pull through without a BFL-sized delay...

This is my general sentiment as well. They've got the capabilities and general "know-how" to develop an FPGA device, so (like BFL) they're stepping up to market / develop an ASIC one.

However, right out the gate they're using preorder money to fund the development of the chips and PCBs. I don't have a problem with this, but as we've seen with bASIC and Avalon, it all comes down to how you manage the funding. You could either go under (hopefully not kicking and screaming along the way) or end up developing a proper product.

My intuition tells me a September shipping period isn't going to happen, so I'm banking on December / early 2014. It's certainly possible of course..they'll just have to work super hard over these next few months.

Plasmoske's words ring true.."high risk, high reward".

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June 08, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
 #15

KNcMiner seems honest enough, and has answered about 1001 questions posed to them. They look legit to me; open about their plans and details. I think their production schedule has to be a bit optimistic, but I think they'll pull through without a BFL-sized delay...

This is my general sentiment as well. They've got the capabilities and general "know-how" to develop an FPGA device, so (like BFL) they're stepping up to market / develop an ASIC one.

However, right out the gate they're using preorder money to fund the development of the chips and PCBs. I don't have a problem with this, but as we've seen with bASIC and Avalon, it all comes down to how you manage the funding. You could either go under (hopefully not kicking and screaming along the way) or end up developing a proper product.

My intuition tells me a September shipping period isn't going to happen, so I'm banking on December / early 2014. It's certainly possible of course..they'll just have to work super hard over these next few months.

Plasmoske's words ring true.."high risk, high reward".

The BS is strong with that one. Also the shill accounts numerous are. I can live with the BS as long as it's marketing speak, not outright... well BS. Shill accounts depict a more shady issue.

Let's hope for the "investors" that KNCMINER will ship what they claim, when they promised it. Right now, I'm treating it like toxic stock. (But hey, even junk bonds do pan out sometimes.)

Wait and see.
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June 08, 2013, 08:02:15 PM
 #16

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

easy: when invested into knc it is bad for your roi when too many people also invest in those machines. it is not only "homo homini lupus est" but also
jupiter jupitii lupus est

you bitcoinorama actually hurt my roi much more than the knc-haters.  Kiss
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June 08, 2013, 08:05:20 PM
 #17

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

easy: when invested into knc it is bad for your roi when too many people also invest in those machines. it is not only "homo homini lupus est" but also
jupiter jupitii lupus est

you bitcoinorama actually hurt my roi much more than the knc-haters.  Kiss

How's that?!

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June 08, 2013, 08:15:58 PM
 #18

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

easy: when invested into knc it is bad for your roi when too many people also invest in those machines. it is not only "homo homini lupus est" but also
jupiter jupitii lupus est

you bitcoinorama actually hurt my roi much more than the knc-haters.  Kiss

How's that?!

What could he mean? what could he mean?

Wild guess: you being their best sales rep? Wink
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June 08, 2013, 08:29:01 PM
Last edit: June 09, 2013, 02:33:53 AM by seleme
 #19

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

It's not bizarre at all... those group buy founders finish with 15-20% of hashing power of the unit without paying heck all and just collect money from other people to pay for it and enjoy rewards.

So, risk is 0 for them, it's not like they are afraid or don't have funds to buy full one but want partners for it, they don't pay nothing and if it comes good have 15-20% of it without paying a dime. Some of them will get 100 GH for free if KNC make it. That's if they're not scammers and take full 100% of it, lol.


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Bitcoinorama
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June 08, 2013, 08:42:25 PM
 #20

High risk, high rewards.

or, high risk, zero reward.. i think the latter


Yet, you're offering a group shared purchase of their units?!!:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228707.msg2408244#msg2408244

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228700.msg2408200#msg2408200


How very hypocritical, and irresponsible of you. What a wonderful person you are! Good luck with that...


So he's really pro KNCMINER. Why the bashing?

**** knows?! Bizarre.

easy: when invested into knc it is bad for your roi when too many people also invest in those machines. it is not only "homo homini lupus est" but also
jupiter jupitii lupus est

you bitcoinorama actually hurt my roi much more than the knc-haters.  Kiss

How's that?!

What could he mean? what could he mean?

Wild guess: you being their best sales rep? Wink

An coolio, I'm enthusiastic and just want to see this project happen by a group of acknowledged experts, and those considering investing to understand the pros and cons. I'm fully aware of the risks, but I take no responsibility for others decisions, and I've berated those that look like their investing without adequate research. I've said that enough times before and during opening of payment. Everyone's responsible for their own research and the fact that I've laid a few hundred down on flights there and back in a day means I'm taking mine seriously. That is not a freakin' advertisement, that's just my own bucket list of confidence criteria I have set myself. Their appears to be plenty of dump people with cash. I both; fortunately, and unfortunately fit in the opposite category.

Take it as you will. Whoever meets me on Monday will be able to vouch whether I appear sincere in person. I'll be the guy with bloodshot eyes due to the minimal sleep I will have from now, until then. If you want me to upload my boarding pass with pictures from the day, then not a problem.

KS, you're still bitching, yet my inbox has still has no further questions to be asked on the day sent to it. Despite numerous offers. Opportunity's there; put up, or shut up. If you won't pull your finger out to attend, I'm more than happy to ask new questions, or revised questions with what you now know, or repeat questions you want more clarity on, on your behalf.

Just PM me questions by tomorrow night (UK time) and I'll print out and record the answers.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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