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Other => Off-topic => Topic started by: Sage on August 08, 2013, 11:34:09 PM



Title: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Sage on August 08, 2013, 11:34:09 PM
Well, it seems the relentless march toward 1984 will never cease...

Both Lavabit and Tormail have been taken down by the Feds.

Aside from Bitmessage, anyone know of any other alternatives?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jago25_98 on August 08, 2013, 11:57:20 PM
http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/tor-tormail-dark-web-communication-pgp/

Quote
BitMessage is a decentralized, encrypted and peer-to-peer messenger. This program has seen a surge in popularity since the Snowden leaks.
TorChat is an easy-to-use anonymous messenger designed to fit nicely into the Tor environment. It has been widely used across the Dark Net spectrum since before Tor Mail’s fall.
PrivNote is a Clear Net messenger service that deletes notes once they’re read. Silk Road vendor RxKing prefers this service, but others refuse to use it, citing multiple security concerns.
SMS4TOR is a Tor-friendly version of PrivNote that has gained considerable traction thanks to its base a Tor hidden service.
I2P-Bote uses the I2P anonymizing software to provide a decentralized, encrypted, verified email service. The service is only in alpha and, due to its reliance on I2P, will probably not be widely adopted.
Privatdemail is an email service with a focus on privacy (as opposed to anonymity). Here’s a fun fact: You apparently can’t email Israel because the servers are located in an Arab country that forbids it. That policy will not inspire confidence, but even so, Privatdemail is already in use.
RiseUp is an email service built for “liberatory social change.” Users must apply and be approved for accounts, proving that they are activists fighting for positive change, which is whatever RiseUp’s founders deem it to be. In exchange, RiseUp keeps minimal logs, encrypts your data and defends your communications unlike many corporate email services.
Nym is a remailer that allows you to send encrypted emails without them being traced back to you, the sender.
Mixmail is a remailer similar to Nym but is much easier to use. It strips out identifying factors like an IP address, making a quick, anonymous email an easy proposition.
Jabber is a popular open-source, decentralized messaging system. It’s widely used by journalists already, particularly in the Middle East.
Tox.im is a currently-in-development tool that promises to allow encrypted and decentralized video and text chat reminiscent of Skype—only without Microsoft allowing the American government to listen in as they do.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 09, 2013, 01:25:43 AM
Just use whatever email you like and encrypt your message. Encourage your recipients to do the same.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: madmadmax on August 09, 2013, 01:38:58 AM
Just use whatever email you like and encrypt your message. Encourage your recipients to do the same.

+1

I don't understand why would someone use tormail or any other "hidden" email service for that matter, if I was a fed looking for drug dealers that would be the first place I'd look, same thing with sensitive information..


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: El Extranjero on August 09, 2013, 01:58:25 AM
Lavabit shutdown? I'm a current user of Lavabit and have had no problems with the service. When and why was Lavabit shutdown?

Edit: I just read the news -.- That fuckin' sucks! I paid to use Lavabuit for two years! Their service was great and there privacy features were some of the best I had ever seen. (Sigh) Guess it's back to searching for another alternative.  :-\


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: giantdragon on August 09, 2013, 04:58:46 AM
He could move to Russia and continue operation Lavabit from there IMHO! It would be nice slap in the NSA face ;D


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: evilpete on August 09, 2013, 05:38:11 AM
He could move to Russia and continue operation Lavabit from there IMHO! It would be nice slap in the NSA face ;D
And Russia's any better?

Snowden's in Russia because it was a way to annoy the US.  They're not a country that usually springs to mind when one is asked for examples of a country that respects civil liberties or human rights.

Hint: they just got their version of SOPA.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: ArticMine on August 09, 2013, 06:21:15 AM
Just use whatever email you like and encrypt your message. Encourage your recipients to do the same.

+1

However in addition to protect against back doors:
1) Use only Free Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS) to encrypt and decrypt the messages on a computer running a FLOSS Operating System under your control.
2) Use a FLOSS Operating System and mail program for example GNU/Linux with Thunderbird to send and receive messages.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: El Extranjero on August 09, 2013, 08:18:28 AM
I think encryption of messages sounds great but not too many people know about it or how to use it and TBH I think encryption is a little difficult to understand. I mean, even Nimda was offering lessons on PGP/GPG encryption here on the Bitcoin forum where you would expect most members to be pretty tech savvy.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jago25_98 on August 09, 2013, 11:19:06 AM
I think encryption of messages sounds great but not too many people know about it or how to use it and TBH I think encryption is a little difficult to understand. I mean, even Nimda was offering lessons on PGP/GPG encryption here on the Bitcoin forum where you would expect most members to be pretty tech savvy.

Very much agreed. It should be simpler.
I think the key to things like Blackberry Messenger that have become more widely used is that the keys are already generated. I know this is not as good as making sure you generate your own but it means it's alot more likely to be used. The insecurity this brings up only opens up a crack for feds and above to get in and most people only need a little bit more security than they currenctly have.

Thus an example,

 k9mail (or a new app) should automatically generate gpg keys and pair this to your email on install, unless otherwise instructed. The pubkey is attached automatically and al messages signed by default.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: narayan on August 09, 2013, 11:36:58 AM
For email services, I think running your own mail server is a good idea.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Fallen666 on August 09, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
They should move the operation to iceand


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: glitch003 on August 09, 2013, 12:49:49 PM
Just use whatever email you like and encrypt your message. Encourage your recipients to do the same.

+1

I don't understand why would someone use tormail or any other "hidden" email service for that matter, if I was a fed looking for drug dealers that would be the first place I'd look, same thing with sensitive information..

You're absolutely right, but the issue is that many users don't know how to to encrypt their message.  Could you ask your mom to send you an encrypted email, for example? 


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: BitTrade on August 09, 2013, 02:26:25 PM
Just use whatever email you like and encrypt your message. Encourage your recipients to do the same.

Yeah, because I'm sure that everyone I communicate with knows what encryption is, and how to send/receive encrypted e-mails.  


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 09, 2013, 05:44:53 PM
Hopefully they don't shutdown for good.I don't think I'll be using any email service in the meantime.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 09, 2013, 05:59:59 PM
Yeah, because I'm sure that everyone I communicate with knows what encryption is, and how to send/receive encrypted e-mails.  
This video might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k

Aside from Bitmessage, anyone know of any other alternatives?
There's a mail server in the I2P (http://www.i2p2.de/) network that it linked to the outside internet via a relay.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: LorenzoMoney on August 09, 2013, 06:30:07 PM
What is the opinion here about hushmail.com?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: cryptasm on August 09, 2013, 08:00:01 PM
What is the opinion here about hushmail.com?

HushMail is not secure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hushmail#Compromises_to_email_privacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hushmail#Compromises_to_email_privacy)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 09, 2013, 08:49:50 PM
What is the opinion here about hushmail.com?

HushMail is not secure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hushmail#Compromises_to_email_privacy

Yeah, I've heard Hush mail is a POS.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: crazy_rabbit on August 09, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 09, 2013, 09:03:15 PM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.
Unless it becomes possible to send and receive messages to non-bitmessage users I highly doubt it will gain much acceptance. There's too much network effect to overcome.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 09, 2013, 09:28:51 PM
Well then what about The PirateBay's encrypted chat messaging project?
I haven't heard much talk about it from the Bitcoin community and they were even taking Bitcoin donations.
I donated $5 worth of BTC to the project and in return will receive to codes to unlock some feature when the app is released.

The only down side to all of this is that the app will only be available for iOS and Android devices. They will eventually make the app for PCs but not until they've completed the phone version.

Here's a link to the site: https://heml.is (https://heml.is)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: ixne on August 09, 2013, 11:10:35 PM
The sad thing is that encryption is complicated enough that the average law-abiding citizen will not jump through the hoops required to get it up and running, but so cheap and easily accessible that any criminal or terrorist smart enough to pose a real threat can easily incorporate it.

It doesn't make sense that the government is spending so much money and effort collecting all of this private data just to catch the dumbest terrorists out there.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: hypersire on August 10, 2013, 01:50:47 AM
I am eagerly awaiting the release of StartMail, from the StartPage developers:

https://beta.startmail.com/



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: El Extranjero on August 10, 2013, 05:19:53 AM
I am eagerly awaiting the release of StartMail, from the StartPage developers:

https://beta.startmail.com/



Can they be trusted with our data? Are they an American company? And are they as secure as Lavabit?

Looks like a great alternative that will definitely be needed for us ex-Lavabit users whom await good news about the service.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: wolverine.ks on August 10, 2013, 06:07:24 AM
For email services, I think running your own mail server is a good idea.

those interested in easy to encrypt email hosted on your own servers, check out MailPile.

they are Foss, and are raising money on indigogo.

@MailPileTeam

http://mailpile.is/

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mailpile-taking-e-mail-back

and they take bitcoin!



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: becoin on August 10, 2013, 06:50:36 AM
The sad thing is that encryption is complicated enough that the average law-abiding citizen will not jump through the hoops required to get it up and running, but so cheap and easily accessible that any criminal or terrorist smart enough to pose a real threat can easily incorporate it.

It doesn't make sense that the government is spending so much money and effort collecting all of this private data just to catch the dumbest terrorists out there.
It makes perfect sense if you understand that the primary purpose of collecting all this private data is not to guard you from terrorists!

The government needs all this data to control society through social engineering and paid media presstitutes. It is not that difficult to see what is in the mind of a senior government official. They know better what is good for us than we do. They are responsible statesmen. Average Joe and Mary are just dumb sheeple.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 10, 2013, 02:23:54 PM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.
Unless it becomes possible to send and receive messages to non-bitmessage users I highly doubt it will gain much acceptance. There's too much network effect to overcome.

It is already possible to configure Thunderbird mail client to route mail through the bitmessage network ... it will become just another protocol layer option like POP, IMAP, SMTP, etc.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: hypersire on August 10, 2013, 03:00:34 PM
I am eagerly awaiting the release of StartMail, from the StartPage developers:

https://beta.startmail.com/



Can they be trusted with our data? Are they an American company? And are they as secure as Lavabit?

Looks like a great alternative that will definitely be needed for us ex-Lavabit users whom await good news about the service.

It sounds like it will be the best choice for private email available. I know StartPage is highly recommended for internet searches as it uses the google search engine but without all the tracking.

Not sure where they will be based out of - I highly doubt it will be the US as that would defeat the whole purpose.

I was a Lavabit user too - when I researched them and discovered they were American I didn't want to use them but there weren't any other good alternatives. I pray that StartMail is what we've all been waiting for.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Cryptoman on August 10, 2013, 03:11:29 PM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.
Unless it becomes possible to send and receive messages to non-bitmessage users I highly doubt it will gain much acceptance. There's too much network effect to overcome.

It is already possible to configure Thunderbird mail client to route mail through the bitmessage network ... it will become just another protocol layer option like POP, IMAP, SMTP, etc.

There's also I2P mail, which has a gateway out to the internet at large.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 10, 2013, 03:23:09 PM
I am eagerly awaiting the release of StartMail, from the StartPage developers:

https://beta.startmail.com/



Can they be trusted with our data? Are they an American company? And are they as secure as Lavabit?

Looks like a great alternative that will definitely be needed for us ex-Lavabit users whom await good news about the service.

It sounds like it will be the best choice for private email available. I know StartPage is highly recommended for internet searches as it uses the google search engine but without all the tracking.

Not sure where they will be based out of - I highly doubt it will be the US as that would defeat the whole purpose.

I was a Lavabit user too - when I researched them and discovered they were American I didn't want to use them but there weren't any other good alternatives. I pray that StartMail is what we've all been waiting for.


Let's hope so! I saw the video and the description they gave of the service sounds exactly the same as Lavabit's description. I'm pretty excited for it myself.  ;D


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 11, 2013, 03:15:44 AM
Quote

It sounds like it will be the best choice for private email available. I know StartPage is highly recommended for internet searches as it uses the google search engine but without all the tracking.

Not sure where they will be based out of - I highly doubt it will be the US as that would defeat the whole purpose.


Ixquick is UK based ...


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 11, 2013, 05:43:48 AM
There's also I2P mail, which has a gateway out to the internet at large.
The only problem with I2P mail is that the admins don't want heavy usage, i.e you're only supposed to download mail a few times per day.

That makes sense when it's necessary to operate it as a free service, but it's no longer impossible to make anonymous online payments to services like that.

Perhaps whomever runs that site could be persuaded to make a paid premium version.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: 2dogs on August 11, 2013, 05:51:56 AM
Sounds easy enough for Mom or Grandma:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/encryption/21363/easily-encrypt-gmail


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: becoin on August 11, 2013, 05:55:52 AM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.
Unless it becomes possible to send and receive messages to non-bitmessage users I highly doubt it will gain much acceptance. There's too much network effect to overcome.

It is already possible to configure Thunderbird mail client to route mail through the bitmessage network ... it will become just another protocol layer option like POP, IMAP, SMTP, etc.
Excellent.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: money changer on August 11, 2013, 10:38:19 AM

Just use whatever email you like and encrypt your message. Encourage your recipients to do the same.



+1

I don't understand why would someone use tormail or any other "hidden" email service for that matter, if I was a fed looking for drug dealers that would be the first place I'd look, same thing with sensitive information..



I'm not sure if someone already answered this further in the thread, but allow me to offer this. If someone wants to prove something regarding your communications with another party, having proof in the meta data that you did indeed send or receive email from a person's account goes a long way toward making their case.

If your spouse says you had an affair or your boss says you shared trade secrets, and an attorney can compel Gmail to reveal that you were regularly emailing the party in question, then they have a lot more leverage than with out such data.

Reaching your email via Tor protect you from anyone knowing where you visited and keeps the visited website from logging your IP and identifying you.

Money Changer


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: CompNsci on August 12, 2013, 04:52:05 PM
I still prefer end-to-end encryption. There are some decent clients for GPG or PGP, we just need to get more people using them.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 12, 2013, 05:20:31 PM
I still prefer end-to-end encryption. There are some decent clients for GPG or PGP, we just need to get more people using them.

...and yet people still scramble for 'convenience' or whatever reason they want the next big thing.

GPG was released 14 years ago!

rightclick -> encrypt -> pick your recipient -> enter passphrase.
I still don't understand what's so hard about it - and you can use what ever network* you like.


*email/skype/forum pm/bitmessage/paper&pen/write it on a pigeon..


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 12, 2013, 05:27:16 PM
I still don't understand what's so hard about it
Have you ever watched a normal people use a computer? Have you ever tried to help someone who doesn't know anything about cryptography set up an email client to use PGP?

It's a usability disaster.

Look at the video I posted earlier in the thread and could the number of steps involved, then consider that in general every button click required to get a program installed cuts the number of potential users in half.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 12, 2013, 05:35:08 PM
Have you ever watched a normal people use a computer? Have you ever tried to help someone who doesn't know anything about cryptography set up an email client to use PGP?

Yep - These are the same people who can't won't learn to drive a manual gearbox'd car because its 'too hard'. People just don't want to learn or discover new things, or ways to do things better, so they suffer.

(I mean NO SHIT, you mean Gmail is free and just runs itself? Ok then imma use it! Obviously Google have nothing to gain from it....)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: cryptasm on August 12, 2013, 09:23:21 PM
Quote

It sounds like it will be the best choice for private email available. I know StartPage is highly recommended for internet searches as it uses the google search engine but without all the tracking.

Not sure where they will be based out of - I highly doubt it will be the US as that would defeat the whole purpose.


Ixquick is UK based ...
Ixquick is based in New York and the Netherlands


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: r.schulz on August 14, 2013, 04:28:39 AM
https://www.penango.com/ is an option to have end-to-end encryption with gmail webmail. Not FOSS.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: rumbitla on August 14, 2013, 07:15:44 AM
https://www.penango.com/ is an option to have end-to-end encryption with gmail webmail. Not FOSS.

They are an American company.

Did you read the small print?

It reads:

Quote
We will disclose information about you to government or law enforcement officials or private parties as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary to respond to claims and legal process, to protect the property and rights of Penango, to protect the safety of the public or any person, or to prevent or stop activity that we consider to be illegal or legally actionable.

NSA has full access to them.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: rumbitla on August 14, 2013, 07:30:21 AM
Made in Switzerland: https://www.neomailbox.com/services/secure-email


    High strength SSL encryption
    IMAP, SMTP, POP3 and Webmail
    Multi-level spam and virus protection
    Unlimited disposable email addresses
    OpenPGP encryption, digital signatures
    IP hiding for enhanced privacy
    RSS feeds delivered via email
    Hosted in Switzerland


We have been increasingly concerned about the alarming erosion of online privacy rights in the USA over the past decade that we've offered Secure Email services hosted in the USA.

To offer our customers an alternative to hosting their email in the USA, in 2004 we began offering Offshore Secure Email service hosted in The Netherlands, and in 2010 we moved all Offshore Secure Email accounts to servers hosted in Switzerland, which affords some of the strongest legal privacy protections for customer email messages stored on our servers.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: tiptopgemdotcom on August 14, 2013, 07:43:39 AM
Made in Switzerland: https://www.neomailbox.com/services/secure-email


    High strength SSL encryption
    IMAP, SMTP, POP3 and Webmail
    Multi-level spam and virus protection
    Unlimited disposable email addresses
    OpenPGP encryption, digital signatures
    IP hiding for enhanced privacy
    RSS feeds delivered via email
    Hosted in Switzerland


We have been increasingly concerned about the alarming erosion of online privacy rights in the USA over the past decade that we've offered Secure Email services hosted in the USA.

To offer our customers an alternative to hosting their email in the USA, in 2004 we began offering Offshore Secure Email service hosted in The Netherlands, and in 2010 we moved all Offshore Secure Email accounts to servers hosted in Switzerland, which affords some of the strongest legal privacy protections for customer email messages stored on our servers.

Yeah, that is all nice- but you don't offer an option to pay in BITCOIN?  Are you an Amish-owned company?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: TiagoTiago on August 14, 2013, 07:53:10 AM
One of the problems with switching to new or small email companies is it is much less likely they will still be around in the future; for many people nowadays if they loose their email address, they are locked out of huge chunks of their online life.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: z0rd on August 14, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
I still prefer end-to-end encryption. There are some decent clients for GPG or PGP, we just need to get more people using them.

...and yet people still scramble for 'convenience' or whatever reason they want the next big thing.

GPG was released 14 years ago!

rightclick -> encrypt -> pick your recipient -> enter passphrase.
I still don't understand what's so hard about it - and you can use what ever network* you like.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you want to send an encrypted mail to person A, your have to use A's pubkey. How do you encrypt all your mail if not all of your correspondent have setup their pubkey/privkey  GPG system?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: ANX_Service on August 14, 2013, 12:39:27 PM
There are indeed limited options when it comes to ensuring your email is indeed secure and yet it also providing the availability, reliability and feature set of an enterprise grade email offering.  These offerings are usually provided by one of the big four and furthermore also hosted in an unfriendly jurisdiction whereby your email is already likely being analysed and you're being profiled for the purpose of improving their advertising mediums.

You can attempt to do this yourself but it is expensive to set-up and expensive to maintain.  I'm sure people will respond reminding me of the $3.95 per month hosting plans but these almost always fall into one of the three following categories:

 - Shared or virtual servers. i.e. no longer secure
 - Hosted in an unfriendly jurisdiction. i.e. no longer safe, or secure
 - Do not provide the availability or resiliency that email requires. i.e. no longer reliable

I do look on with interest as to some of the upcoming developments others have posted on this thread.  I welcome anything that helps our emails stay the way they were originally intended...private.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: RapidCoinz on August 14, 2013, 12:41:39 PM
Has anyone used 'safe-mail.net' ??


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: HeroC on August 14, 2013, 01:04:01 PM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.
Unless it becomes possible to send and receive messages to non-bitmessage users I highly doubt it will gain much acceptance. There's too much network effect to overcome.

It is already possible to configure Thunderbird mail client to route mail through the bitmessage network ... it will become just another protocol layer option like POP, IMAP, SMTP, etc.

Is there a tutorial? If so, I would love to do this.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 14, 2013, 02:36:07 PM
Made in Switzerland: https://www.neomailbox.com/services/secure-email


    High strength SSL encryption
    IMAP, SMTP, POP3 and Webmail
    Multi-level spam and virus protection
    Unlimited disposable email addresses
    OpenPGP encryption, digital signatures
    IP hiding for enhanced privacy
    RSS feeds delivered via email
    Hosted in Switzerland


We have been increasingly concerned about the alarming erosion of online privacy rights in the USA over the past decade that we've offered Secure Email services hosted in the USA.

To offer our customers an alternative to hosting their email in the USA, in 2004 we began offering Offshore Secure Email service hosted in The Netherlands, and in 2010 we moved all Offshore Secure Email accounts to servers hosted in Switzerland, which affords some of the strongest legal privacy protections for customer email messages stored on our servers.

Too pricy. Lavabit's service was extremely secure and had a few extra features and all I had to pay was $8 or $16 a year. Thanks a lot Snowden!  >:( LOL!


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: joesmoe2012 on August 14, 2013, 02:41:16 PM
I wish we had something where the encryption of one messages didn't use the same keys as the encryption of the previous message. So if at some point in time, one of my PGP priv keys is obtained somehow, all my mail isn't then readable.

This is my biggest issue with PGP.

I'm watching bitmessage with interest, but no osx client yet ?



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 14, 2013, 02:42:45 PM
I wish we had something where the encryption of one messages didn't use the same keys as the encryption of the previous message. So if at some point in time, one of my PGP priv keys is obtained somehow, all my mail isn't then readable.

This is my biggest issue with PGP.

I'm watching bitmessage with interest, but no osx client yet ?



There not being support for OSX is a downer, but we can always install Windows on OSX just for Bitmessage


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: joesmoe2012 on August 14, 2013, 03:02:34 PM
I wish we had something where the encryption of one messages didn't use the same keys as the encryption of the previous message. So if at some point in time, one of my PGP priv keys is obtained somehow, all my mail isn't then readable.

This is my biggest issue with PGP.

I'm watching bitmessage with interest, but no osx client yet ?



There not being support for OSX is a downer, but we can always install Windows on OSX just for Bitmessage

No thanks :)

I'm currently running it on a free level AWS EC2 instance, just remote in whenever i want to check my messages...though this probably eliminates any real sense of security.



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: btchip on August 14, 2013, 03:05:39 PM
https://www.penango.com/ is an option to have end-to-end encryption with gmail webmail. Not FOSS.

I'd suggest http://www.mailvelope.com/ which is open source and provides OpenGPG integration for multiple webmails


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: rumbitla on August 14, 2013, 03:33:08 PM
Has anyone used 'safe-mail.net' ??

Firstly, the company that provides Internet services for hosting the Safe-mail.net system is Barak.net.il, based on our review of the domain registration for Safe-mail.net. Barak.net.il is one of three companies with a license from the Israeli government for providing similar Internet services, according to the English-language version of their web site, as we understand it. Perhaps it is merely a coincidence that Ehud Barak was once head of the Israeli Defense Forces intelligence branch.

Secondly, Safe-mail.net makes the usual disclosure that they may disclose your account activity, stored e-mails, and other information upon court order or law enforcement request. They make the unusual variation of this disclosure by stating that they may disclose these things whenever it is in their interest to do so. This vague contract clause should scare anyone who thinks about it even briefly. Given that Barak.net.il is licensed by the Israeli government, it would seem quite likely that the Israeli government could command that the data from all Safe-mail.net accounts be provided to the government.

Thirdly, we found no details about the encryption algorithms used to provide for security with Safe-mail.net. An investigation of Israeli law suggests that there is a mandate that encryption have back doors or key escrow for use by Israeli authorities.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: idev on August 14, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
ByteMail

Quote
ByteMail is a decentralized, P2P, communication protocol for sending messages over a secure connection on the internet. ByteMail was created in order to provide people with a way to send messages without worrying about a third party intercepting and reading these messages. ByteMail ships with a webUI as well as a command-line UI.

If you are a developer and would like to contribute to the ByteMail project, check out the project on Github here: http://github.com/ByteMail

Official project home: bytemailproject.org (http://bytemailproject.org/doku.php)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 14, 2013, 04:42:36 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you want to send an encrypted mail to person A, your have to use A's pubkey. How do you encrypt all your mail if not all of your correspondent have setup their pubkey/privkey  GPG system?

It would be like calling someone who doesn't have a telephone. The solution? Encourage or force them to get one, or buy one for them and show them how to set it up.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 14, 2013, 05:05:57 PM
Has anyone used 'safe-mail.net' ??

Firstly, the company that provides Internet services for hosting the Safe-mail.net system is Barak.net.il, based on our review of the domain registration for Safe-mail.net. Barak.net.il is one of three companies with a license from the Israeli government for providing similar Internet services, according to the English-language version of their web site, as we understand it. Perhaps it is merely a coincidence that Ehud Barak was once head of the Israeli Defense Forces intelligence branch.

Secondly, Safe-mail.net makes the usual disclosure that they may disclose your account activity, stored e-mails, and other information upon court order or law enforcement request. They make the unusual variation of this disclosure by stating that they may disclose these things whenever it is in their interest to do so. This vague contract clause should scare anyone who thinks about it even briefly. Given that Barak.net.il is licensed by the Israeli government, it would seem quite likely that the Israeli government could command that the data from all Safe-mail.net accounts be provided to the government.

Thirdly, we found no details about the encryption algorithms used to provide for security with Safe-mail.net. An investigation of Israeli law suggests that there is a mandate that encryption have back doors or key escrow for use by Israeli authorities.

Like Hushmail, safe-mail has a backdoor into their backend for LE. I know this for a fact, don't ask for sources ;)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 14, 2013, 05:09:12 PM
Like Hushmail, safe-mail has a backdoor into their backend for LE. I know this for a fact, don't ask for sources ;)

Here's a source, also note this was a Canadian court and five years ago;

Quote
Hushmail, a longtime provider of encrypted web-based email, markets itself by saying that "not even a Hushmail employee with access to our servers can read your encrypted e-mail, since each message is uniquely encoded before it leaves your computer."

But it turns out that statement seems not to apply to individuals targeted by government agencies that are able to convince a Canadian court to serve a court order on the company.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai/ (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai/)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 14, 2013, 05:12:23 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you want to send an encrypted mail to person A, your have to use A's pubkey. How do you encrypt all your mail if not all of your correspondent have setup their pubkey/privkey  GPG system?

It would be like calling someone who doesn't have a telephone. The solution? Encourage or force them to get one, or buy one for them and show them how to set it up.

And I'm sure that's too much of a hassle for everyone to do. That's why a service like Lavabit was perfect to the core.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 14, 2013, 05:20:25 PM
ByteMail

Quote
ByteMail is a decentralized, P2P, communication protocol for sending messages over a secure connection on the internet. ByteMail was created in order to provide people with a way to send messages without worrying about a third party intercepting and reading these messages. ByteMail ships with a webUI as well as a command-line UI.

If you are a developer and would like to contribute to the ByteMail project, check out the project on Github here: http://github.com/ByteMail

Official project home: bytemailproject.org (http://bytemailproject.org/doku.php)

ByteMail seems interesting but the fact that the project seems to be at its infancy is a bit of let down.
It will definitely discourage many potential users from adopting it.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 14, 2013, 05:22:59 PM
And I'm sure that's too much of a hassle for everyone to do.

Hassle? I suppose, if you need to put down Netflix for what, an hour.....?

That's why a service like Lavabit was perfect to the core.

On my list of 'perfect', getting shut down by a federal agency is nowhere near the core.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 14, 2013, 05:23:14 PM
Like Hushmail, safe-mail has a backdoor into their backend for LE. I know this for a fact, don't ask for sources ;)

Here's a source, also note this was a Canadian court and five years ago;

Quote
Hushmail, a longtime provider of encrypted web-based email, markets itself by saying that "not even a Hushmail employee with access to our servers can read your encrypted e-mail, since each message is uniquely encoded before it leaves your computer."

But it turns out that statement seems not to apply to individuals targeted by government agencies that are able to convince a Canadian court to serve a court order on the company.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai/

Yea i was speaking RE safe-mail. but good looks on the source, thanks


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 14, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
And I'm sure that's too much of a hassle for everyone to do.

Hassle? I suppose, if you need to put down Netflix for what, an hour.....?

That's why a service like Lavabit was perfect to the core.

On my list of 'perfect', getting shut down by a federal agency is nowhere near the core.

They didn't get shut down by any federal agency. The owner chose to commit suicide (not literally of course) rather than to hand over private user data.
The fact that no one's data was compromised is a victory to all. Yeah they all suffered a loss but at least Lavabit kept it real to the end unlike other similar service providers
that make false promises.

Edit: Typos.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 14, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
They didn't get shut down by any federal agency. The owner chose to commit suicide (not literally of course) rather than to hand over private user data.
The fact that no one's data was compromised is a victory to all. Yeah they all suffered a loss but at least Lavabit kept it real to the end unlike other similar service providers
that make false promises.

Well, the feds came calling and the provider shut down. It's a case of jump-or-be-pushed, however 'honorable'.

Quote
This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States.

Sincerely,
Ladar Levison
Owner and Operator, Lavabit LLC

Such as Lavabit for example?

Quote
Levison stressed that he has complied with "upwards of two dozen court orders" for information in the past that were targeted at "specific users" and that "I never had a problem with that."

Where is your data now?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: atomium on August 14, 2013, 05:52:03 PM
bitmessage has the been the best for me so far, but its kind of a hassle for frequent use


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: rebuilder on August 14, 2013, 07:07:46 PM
Bitmessage or something similar, built from the ground up for privacy, seems like the only answer for anyone not wanting to be snooped on. I don't see any solution that lets you both guard your privacy and be able to send messages to your non-tech-savvy mom. It doesn't matter how secure your mail provider is if your mom uses Gmail - the NSA and whoever else has access will scrape all correspondence between the two of you from your mother's end.

If you actually want to remain anonymous it's even harder - you can use proxies and convince all your contacts to use PGP all you like, but as soon as one of the people you mailed leaks your identity one way or the other, your mail address is linked to you. So you'll have to use a myriad different, rotating addresses, keeping everyone up to date on what address you're using currently... It's not reasonable. The net is broken from a privacy point of view, and a real fix is going to be very difficult to push through.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: TiagoTiago on August 14, 2013, 07:18:26 PM
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 14, 2013, 07:30:43 PM
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: TiagoTiago on August 14, 2013, 07:37:08 PM
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?
I mean something where the two ends negotiate an encryption over unsecure lines in a secure manner; while providing the option to fall back to plain text if the other side refuses to go secure.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: stevegee58 on August 14, 2013, 07:37:19 PM
Kim Dotcom of megaupload fame wants to get in on the act as well, starting an end-to-end encrypted email service:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/08/11/1244209/after-lavabit-shut-down-dotcoms-mega-promises-secure-mail


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 14, 2013, 08:06:22 PM
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?
I mean something where the two ends negotiate an encryption over unsecure lines in a secure manner; while providing the option to fall back to plain text if the other side refuses to go secure.

Yea for email GPG/PGP. For IM OTR, for VOIP ZRTP.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: TiagoTiago on August 14, 2013, 11:06:36 PM
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?
I mean something where the two ends negotiate an encryption over unsecure lines in a secure manner; while providing the option to fall back to plain text if the other side refuses to go secure.

Yea for email GPG/PGP. For IM OTR, for VOIP ZRTP.
With GPG/PGP the email client has no clue whether the receiver has or hasn't means to read encrypted data until the user tells it...


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: threeip on August 14, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Given that you have to use someone's key to encrypt a message, it would be safe to assume they had software to generate and handle said key.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: TiagoTiago on August 15, 2013, 12:49:19 AM
Given that you have to use someone's key to encrypt a message, it would be safe to assume they had software to generate and handle said key.
But how would you know if they have a key in the first place?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 15, 2013, 03:39:17 AM
Given that you have to use someone's key to encrypt a message, it would be safe to assume they had software to generate and handle said key.
But how would you know if they have a key in the first place?

You'd have to negotiate that beforehand.
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?
I mean something where the two ends negotiate an encryption over unsecure lines in a secure manner; while providing the option to fall back to plain text if the other side refuses to go secure.

Yea for email GPG/PGP. For IM OTR, for VOIP ZRTP.
With GPG/PGP the email client has no clue whether the receiver has or hasn't means to read encrypted data until the user tells it...

Okay I see what you mean. Unfortunately building a system like you mentioned requires a 'failsafe' for decrypting the messege then sending plaintext if encrypted message can't be decrypted by the receiving party, an inherently insecure action.

OTR cannot do this either, so curious as to why you 'said similar to OTR for email' but then responded as you did?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 15, 2013, 04:14:44 AM
Kim Dotcom of megaupload fame wants to get in on the act as well, starting an end-to-end encrypted email service:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/08/11/1244209/after-lavabit-shut-down-dotcoms-mega-promises-secure-mail

This should be good ... he may come across sometimes like a big, funny guy (clownish) but you know what? ... He just goes ahead and does shit, he doesn't just talk about it.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 15, 2013, 04:19:09 AM
I assume someone has already mentioned bitmessage.org (even though it's not email) it could replace email someday as a secure alternative.
Unless it becomes possible to send and receive messages to non-bitmessage users I highly doubt it will gain much acceptance. There's too much network effect to overcome.

It is already possible to configure Thunderbird mail client to route mail through the bitmessage network ... it will become just another protocol layer option like POP, IMAP, SMTP, etc.

Is there a tutorial? If so, I would love to do this.

In fact, yes there is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppk_zzjZRIg

no guarantees on what privacy leaks this opens up regards using the mail client both over bitmessage and normal channels. To begin with I would not use a Thunderbird client configured for bitmessage transport for regular mails or vice versa ... and I have no idea what other traffic Thunderbird may send/leak out, I know it can have lots of plugins etc ... so dyodd.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 15, 2013, 04:20:35 AM
Kim Dotcom of megaupload fame wants to get in on the act as well, starting an end-to-end encrypted email service:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/08/11/1244209/after-lavabit-shut-down-dotcoms-mega-promises-secure-mail

This should be good ... he may come across sometimes like a big, funny guy (clownish) but you know what? ... He just goes ahead and does shit, he doesn't just talk about it.

Yea there is no doubt he is a doer more than a talker, but don't walk into his playpen willy nilly. If you are looking for secure encrypted mail storage the only person you can trust is yourself. Using open source software or at least auditable services is key.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: TiagoTiago on August 15, 2013, 05:39:22 AM
Given that you have to use someone's key to encrypt a message, it would be safe to assume they had software to generate and handle said key.
But how would you know if they have a key in the first place?

You'd have to negotiate that beforehand.
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?
I mean something where the two ends negotiate an encryption over unsecure lines in a secure manner; while providing the option to fall back to plain text if the other side refuses to go secure.

Yea for email GPG/PGP. For IM OTR, for VOIP ZRTP.
With GPG/PGP the email client has no clue whether the receiver has or hasn't means to read encrypted data until the user tells it...

Okay I see what you mean. Unfortunately building a system like you mentioned requires a 'failsafe' for decrypting the messege then sending plaintext if encrypted message can't be decrypted by the receiving party, an inherently insecure action.

OTR cannot do this either, so curious as to why you 'said similar to OTR for email' but then responded as you did?
Last i checked (not recently) OTR did indeed allow you the option of using plain-text if the other party didn't had OTR


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 15, 2013, 06:01:17 AM
Given that you have to use someone's key to encrypt a message, it would be safe to assume they had software to generate and handle said key.
But how would you know if they have a key in the first place?

You'd have to negotiate that beforehand.
Isn't there something like OTR but for email?

With a diffie-heilman agreement specifically? Or are you talking about GPG/PGP?
I mean something where the two ends negotiate an encryption over unsecure lines in a secure manner; while providing the option to fall back to plain text if the other side refuses to go secure.

Yea for email GPG/PGP. For IM OTR, for VOIP ZRTP.
With GPG/PGP the email client has no clue whether the receiver has or hasn't means to read encrypted data until the user tells it...

Okay I see what you mean. Unfortunately building a system like you mentioned requires a 'failsafe' for decrypting the messege then sending plaintext if encrypted message can't be decrypted by the receiving party, an inherently insecure action.

OTR cannot do this either, so curious as to why you 'said similar to OTR for email' but then responded as you did?
Last i checked (not recently) OTR did indeed allow you the option of using plain-text if the other party didn't had OTR
Disabling your OTR or telling it to resort to plaintext if encryption is not available is a feature, yes. In the latter scenario OTR first sends a key message, and if they get no response the user can decide what the default option is (retry key exchange or send plaintext). This is dependent on immediate communication between the two recipients. This would only be possible via email if the person sending the email sent it encrypted, then got a response from the recipient that they don't accept said encryption and then a plain text message will be sent.

If you mean can the user send two messages at once, one encrypted, the other not, both in one larger encrypted container, the outter shell of which can be decrypted by the recipient without a special plugin and not seen by an attacker... I don't know if that is possible.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 15, 2013, 07:09:40 AM
Speaking of OTR...

http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2013/08/facebook-chats-can-be-private.html


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 15, 2013, 07:13:53 AM
Speaking of OTR...

http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2013/08/facebook-chats-can-be-private.html

Yes. Note: Facebook will still log all the messages, and because it is OTR the encryption is fairly weak... even if the keys constantly change. Obviously the plausible deniability/log tampering argument might hold up in a court room, but please don't say anything on that platform you wouldn't want Facebook or LEA reading.  


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 15, 2013, 07:17:25 AM
I see it as an incremental step. It's hard to get people to change at all, but it's less hard to convince them to add some protection to their existing communication medium than it is to convince them to adopt an entirely new platform.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: LordMeowMeow on August 17, 2013, 02:57:27 PM
Interesting discussion. What's the consensus on https://www.neomailbox.com ? It's expensive but is it good?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: faiza1990 on August 17, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
 I think running your own mail server for emails is a good ;) ???


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 17, 2013, 04:57:14 PM
What's the consensus on https://www.neomailbox.com ? It's expensive but is it good?
It's hard to be explain, but their web site is subtly wrong in a way that makes me not trust the site or the company behind it.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: LordMeowMeow on August 17, 2013, 05:28:57 PM
I think running your own mail server for emails is a good ;) ???

Yes I think that might be a good option. I'll duckduckgo some good tutorials on this.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 17, 2013, 06:32:33 PM
Interesting discussion. What's the consensus on https://www.neomailbox.com ? It's expensive but is it good?
They are swiss based. Have you seen Switzerland's privacy laws? no good mate :)

If you aren't looking to use GPG there are very few (if any) mail providers that can promise to keep your emails safe. Depends on what you are looking for, really. 


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Lauda on August 17, 2013, 06:36:55 PM
Wait for the Kim Dotcom solution?  8)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: wolverine.ks on August 17, 2013, 06:39:56 PM
Wait for the Kim Dotcom solution?  8)

that may be a temporary solution, but hosting your own server is more likely the long term solution.

additionally, there is bitmessage, a distributed email protocol, similar to bitcoin in some respects.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: 2dogs on August 17, 2013, 07:32:00 PM
Wait for the Kim Dotcom solution?  8)

that may be a temporary solution, but hosting your own server is more likely the long term solution.

additionally, there is bitmessage, a distributed email protocol, similar to bitcoin in some respects.

any suggestions for hosting your own server?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: wolverine.ks on August 17, 2013, 08:56:59 PM
i havent done much research into hosting my own server. i use a combination of gmail and bitmessage depending on who im talking to.

im really excited about MailPile though.

The project is run by 3 developers, 1 from google, 1 a member of the Icelandic Pirate Party, and 1 open source user interface developer.

Its still in the works, but should be useable in 6-12 months.

You can follow their progress and look up details here.

http://www.mailpile.is/ (http://www.mailpile.is/)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Ente on August 17, 2013, 09:04:15 PM
About hosting your own mailserver: Technically, this is pretty easy. Probably the easiest way would be to get a somewhat decent NAS, as they nowadays have all software ready-to-go, and just use a few tens of watt.

But, would my ente123.com mailserver be accepted by other, regular mailservers? No blacklisting or the like? At least webservers who are open (send mails without registering) or sending spam will quickly be blacklisted.
So, I guess, it's as simple as installing a mailserver daemon, registering any domain and having a static IP (or dyn-dns)?

Ente


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Lauda on August 18, 2013, 01:39:18 AM
Wait for the Kim Dotcom solution?  8)

that may be a temporary solution, but hosting your own server is more likely the long term solution.

additionally, there is bitmessage, a distributed email protocol, similar to bitcoin in some respects.
I don't think it will be temporary.. after all he's been through he wants to stick it up to the gov now, he'll find a way to make it permanent.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: dserrano5 on August 18, 2013, 01:59:37 AM
But, would my ente123.com mailserver be accepted by other, regular mailservers? No blacklisting or the like? At least webservers who are open (send mails without registering) or sending spam will quickly be blacklisted.
So, I guess, it's as simple as installing a mailserver daemon, registering any domain and having a static IP (or dyn-dns)?

I've had some issues sending mail from my domain dserrano5.es to localbitcoins:

Quote
Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

     support@localbitcoins.com
     
Technical details of permanent failure:
Message rejected by Google Groups. Please visit http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=188131 to review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines.

And that google.com page reads:

Quote
Why has Gmail blocked my messages?

Here at Gmail, we work very hard to fight spam [...]

There are some additional spam-related steps you should take to improve the trust others will have in your domain.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: dave3 on August 18, 2013, 07:47:00 AM
It's nice to run your own mail server, but you've got to set it up properly or you'll have problems getting your mail delivered.

Make sure reverse DNS is set on the mail server IP address, and setup SPF records and DKIM.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: virtualmaster on August 18, 2013, 09:43:42 AM
What about creating a Retroshare network with Namecoin identities ?
Anonymous and encrypted messaging, fileshare and posting would be solved and the network cannot be closed.
http://dot-bit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1089


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 18, 2013, 04:45:46 PM
i havent done much research into hosting my own server. i use a combination of gmail and bitmessage depending on who im talking to.

im really excited about MailPile though.

The project is run by 3 developers, 1 from google, 1 a member of the Icelandic Pirate Party, and 1 open source user interface developer.

Its still in the works, but should be useable in 6-12 months.

You can follow their progress and look up details here.

http://www.mailpile.is/

The fact that Mailpile consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Mailpile.  :-\


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: herzmeister on August 18, 2013, 08:46:54 PM
The fact that Mailpile consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Mailpile.  :-\

The fact that Bitcoin consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Bitcoin. :-\


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Lauda on August 18, 2013, 09:29:24 PM
The fact that Mailpile consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Mailpile.  :-\

The fact that Bitcoin consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Bitcoin. :-\
I feel you bro  >:(


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 18, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
One more thing: why isn't there (or is there that I don't know about?) a web-of-trust model system for SSL certificates? At this point, it seems like the only secure solution is self-signed certificates, and that is only "secure" if you know the person who runs the server.

At this point I would say anyone who wants web-based secure email had better be running their own web and mail servers. Or else they are more trusting than I am that every Certificate Authority in the world isn't CCing everyone's private webserver keys (which the CA's generate) to every three-letter-agency on Earth.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 18, 2013, 10:22:29 PM
One more thing: why isn't there (or is there that I don't know about?) a web-of-trust model system for SSL certificates? At this point, it seems like the only secure solution is self-signed certificates, and that is only "secure" if you know the person who runs the server.

At this point I would say anyone who wants web-based secure email had better be running their own web and mail servers. Or else they are more trusting than I am that every Certificate Authority in the world isn't CCing everyone's private webserver keys (which the CA's generate) to every three-letter-agency on Earth.

I agree the CA system is flawed and proven to be broken/compromised in some important cases.

Namecoin TLS is now at functional state and the concept has been proven. Now it needs some more work (and devs) to bring it to a level where widespread usage is simple.

http://dot-bit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=552 (http://dot-bit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=552)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 18, 2013, 11:08:18 PM
One more thing: why isn't there (or is there that I don't know about?) a web-of-trust model system for SSL certificates? At this point, it seems like the only secure solution is self-signed certificates, and that is only "secure" if you know the person who runs the server.

At this point I would say anyone who wants web-based secure email had better be running their own web and mail servers. Or else they are more trusting than I am that every Certificate Authority in the world isn't CCing everyone's private webserver keys (which the CA's generate) to every three-letter-agency on Earth.

I agree the CA system is flawed and proven to be broken/compromised in some important cases.

Namecoin TLS is now at functional state and the concept has been proven. Now it needs some more work (and devs) to bring it to a level where widespread usage is simple.

http://dot-bit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=552

Thank you for pointing that out. I was of course aware of Namecoin but not Namecoin TLS. I'm setting up a forum (and probably web-based email) with encrypted storage and SSL-only access, and physical hosting at a location I have control over. I don't have a lot of bandwidth so I'm not making it available to to the public (sorry) but I am concerned about making it work.

What I've done is put the root domain and a subdomain on two different physical servers: one has a Comodo SSL certificate and the other has a certificate generated by my own local Certificate Authority. The root certificate hasn't left the machine with the webserver. The domain with the Comodo cert has one thing on it: a download link to my own CA public cert which can be installed into people's browsers or OSes.

This gets me third-party authentication so you know that the cert came from the controller of the domain, and then encryption where the private keys for the server and CA are only on the server and have only ever been on the server.

And it's *really* kind of convoluted. AND if I were offering it publicly, it still wouldn't be an alternative because all it would take is someone physically stealing the server or arresting me and cutting the lock off the case.

Anyhow, I'd been thinking about registering a dot-bit domain as an alternate means of accessing the site. Now I'm considering that much more seriously. Thank you.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 18, 2013, 11:36:18 PM
The fact that Mailpile consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Mailpile.  :-\

The fact that Bitcoin consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Bitcoin. :-\

you've got to be kidding. If any changes are made the community disapproves of we won't update our clients, simple as that. Mike Hearn is a legend mate don't be a dick.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 18, 2013, 11:55:50 PM
The fact that Mailpile consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Mailpile.  :-\

The fact that Bitcoin consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Bitcoin. :-\

you've got to be kidding. If any changes are made the community disapproves of we won't update our clients, simple as that. Mike Hearn is a legend mate don't be a dick.

... he's not a legend ... bitcoin is the trust no-one currency, you'd do well to remember that.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 19, 2013, 12:02:48 AM
The fact that Mailpile consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Mailpile.  :-\

The fact that Bitcoin consists of a google developer already makes me nervous to use Bitcoin. :-\

you've got to be kidding. If any changes are made the community disapproves of we won't update our clients, simple as that. Mike Hearn is a legend mate don't be a dick.

... he's not a legend ... bitcoin is the trust no-one currency, you'd do well to remember that.

If you read my post, it's not about trust in Mike. He has done a TON for this community. Trust comes in when you update the client, so you peruse the changes and see if they are up to standard. You trust the code, not the people. Here i am speaking to the hard work mike has put in making bitcoinj possible. You'd do well to remember that.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 19, 2013, 12:09:39 AM
Self-hosting your own mail server is a short term solution for long term problem. e-mail must be retired because of usability and security problems. Just like BBS or Gopher is no longer used by mainstream.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 19, 2013, 01:43:31 AM
Quote
Here i am speaking to the hard work mike has put in making bitcoinj possible. You'd do well to remember that.

Thanks .. maybe I will. Deifying devs and calling people dicks is probably not going to make me listen to you much though ... I wonder how he missed that random number generator Android bug for soooo long? Maybe concentrating on the law enforcement possibilities for bitcoinJ was occupying too much of his dev mind share?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: jedunnigan on August 19, 2013, 02:07:53 AM
Quote
Here i am speaking to the hard work mike has put in making bitcoinj possible. You'd do well to remember that.

Thanks .. maybe I will. Deifying devs and calling people dicks is probably not going to make me listen to you much though ... I wonder how he missed that random number generator Android bug for soooo long? Maybe concentrating on the law enforcement possibilities for bitcoinJ was occupying too much of his dev mind share?

lol deify? boy oh boy i love leaps in logic.

But sure thing mate, you're the boss. I'll stop defending someone who has dedicated their time to meaningful development in the bitcoin space and start throwing baseless accusations around that even if they were true, wouldn't fly in practice. Happy now?

What I can tell you is I'm definitely over this OT convo tho, thanks for the insights.

To make this post worthwhile:
Self-hosting your own mail server is a short term solution for long term problem. e-mail must be retired because of usability and security problems. Just like BBS or Gopher is no longer used by mainstream.

I agree to an extent, although it will be ages before email is phased out. An easy-to-use alternative will have to be made accessible first.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 19, 2013, 02:30:29 AM
Self-hosting your own mail server is a short term solution for long term problem. e-mail must be retired because of usability and security problems. Just like BBS or Gopher is no longer used by mainstream.

BBS? Isn't that what we're having this conversation on?

I'm interested to know what you suggest to replace SMTP. I have little doubt that whatever comes next will still end up being called email.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: favdesu on August 19, 2013, 07:29:08 AM
i havent done much research into hosting my own server. i use a combination of gmail and bitmessage depending on who im talking to.

im really excited about MailPile though.

The project is run by 3 developers, 1 from google, 1 a member of the Icelandic Pirate Party, and 1 open source user interface developer.

Its still in the works, but should be useable in 6-12 months.

You can follow their progress and look up details here.

http://www.mailpile.is/

this looks really promising. I will "contribute" the $23 thing :)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: stevegee58 on August 19, 2013, 11:06:14 AM
Kim Dotcom of megaupload fame wants to get in on the act as well, starting an end-to-end encrypted email service:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/08/11/1244209/after-lavabit-shut-down-dotcoms-mega-promises-secure-mail

This should be good ... he may come across sometimes like a big, funny guy (clownish) but you know what? ... He just goes ahead and does shit, he doesn't just talk about it.

Yea there is no doubt he is a doer more than a talker, but don't walk into his playpen willy nilly. If you are looking for secure encrypted mail storage the only person you can trust is yourself. Using open source software or at least auditable services is key.

I agree.  But still I like KDC because he's bold, disruptive and a PITA to the government.  We need more like him who refuse to be sheep.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: wolverine.ks on August 19, 2013, 04:34:27 PM

I'm interested to know what you suggest to replace SMTP. I have little doubt that whatever comes next will still end up being called email.

what about bitmessage?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Sage on August 21, 2013, 06:08:24 AM

I'm interested to know what you suggest to replace SMTP. I have little doubt that whatever comes next will still end up being called email.

what about bitmessage?

Systems like Bitmessage are the ultimate solution, but in the interim we need something to bridge the gap.

So far its looking like enigma mail + openPGP is the best option.  But getting contacts to actually setup encryption has been a challenge.

What's it gonna take for the lemmings to wake up?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: LightRider on August 21, 2013, 08:32:01 AM
The owner of groklaw (which she just shut down (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175), btw), suggests https://mykolab.com/.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: ANX_Service on August 21, 2013, 02:49:04 PM
Quote
I'm interested to know what you suggest to replace SMTP. I have little doubt that whatever comes next will still end up being called email.

+1

ANX.HK (http://ANX.HK)



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: virtualmaster on August 21, 2013, 07:19:51 PM

ANX.HK (http://ANX.HK)


What is this ?
The Bitcoin price seems to be 800 $ there.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Winterfrost on August 21, 2013, 07:22:58 PM

What is this ?
The Bitcoin price seems to be 800 $ there.

A bitcoin exchange for Asia it looks like. It defaults to HKD (Hong Kong Dollars), so that's why it shows up as 800.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: pa on August 21, 2013, 09:31:16 PM
Countermail looks good. . . and they accept Bitcoin. . . any opinions as to whether they are secure?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 21, 2013, 11:13:17 PM
Countermail looks good. . . and they accept Bitcoin. . . any opinions as to whether they are secure?
Look at these quotes from their webpage:
Quote
CounterMail is a secure and easy to use online
Quote
it requires no specialized computer skills or knowledge
There is no real way to verify their claims about diskless servers (lol) or no IP logging. First might be true, the second probably not. They are operating on clearnet. The owners can be traced by LEA and they still can be forced to do nasty things to their users by LEA cockheads.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: NewLiberty on August 21, 2013, 11:32:14 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57599579/nsa-gathered-thousands-of-americans-emails-fisa-court-records-show/

Looks like one surveillance step backward (after countless steps forward).

If only trust was so easy to regain, once lost.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on August 23, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
Lavabit, Silent Circle, Tormail and now Bitmessage:

It seems like all users received the following message today:

Quote
Bitmessage has several potential security issues including a broken proof of work function and potential private key leaks.

 Full details:
 http://secupost.net/*RefNumber/bitmessage-security

Somebody is collecting IPs, i wonder who? ;)



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 23, 2013, 03:21:52 PM
Looks like we're all screwed. At least until The Pirate Bay releases Hemlis.  ;)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on August 23, 2013, 03:35:56 PM
http://www.chronicles.no/2013/08/bitmessage-crackdown.html

Quote
Mr "Robert White" was behind the "attack" (message from secupost.net and Bitmessage):
-- -- --
This message is also available at http://secupost.net

Alright, the messages sent out a few days ago are starting to expire now. It's time for everyone to learn what the purpose of secupost.net is.

As many of you guessed, this is indeed a Bitmessage address to IP address mapper. Yes, the only thing that webserver would send was a 500 message.

It did alright too, gathering nearly 500 bitmessage users information after sending 15000 messages. Double what I expected.

I've included both a log of each address detected and the first thing to hit it including IP, reverse DNS and useragent as well as raw logs for every valid request. If you need to confirm this signature so you can verify messages from me when bitmessage is down, please see the bitmessage general chan for a copy from my bitmessage address.

So, future lessons:
- - - Yes, all bitmessage addresses are public and can be read from your messages.dat file using a small script.
- - - Don't click links. Even if it looks like a security-related site and uses some technical terms. I am not a nice person, I will publish any information I can gather about you and I don't care if you get lit on fire by terrorists because of it.
- - - Bitmessage does _not_ scale. It took me around 3.5 hours to send ~15k messages but it took the bitmessage network over 18 hours to fully propogate them.

Some of you were smart enough to use tor or VPN providers, but many of these are direct home or server IPs. The information below is more than enough for any government to come after you or any script kiddie to DDoS you. Be more careful next time.

Some of you tried to use scripts to claim addresses which weren't yours and skew the data, of course, you didn't even change your user-agent.

Even without accouting for that your attacks were ineffective because the IDs were generated in a non-linear fashion using a cropped HMAC-SHA256. To find your id:

def gen_mac(addr):
mac = hmac.new("fuck you", addr, hashlib.sha256).digest()
return unpack('>I', mac[0:4])[0]

This simple deterministic method means that you would have had to try... (2^32/15000)/2 = 143165 times on average just to get a single collision. Thanks for playing, but no luck this time.

This service has been operated completely anonymously thanks to Tor and Bitcoin. I hope you enjoy the result.

Robert White (BM-2D8yr4fzoMzwndqPwLMVyzUcdfK9LWZXjY)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: idev on August 23, 2013, 04:13:27 PM
ByteMail

Quote
ByteMail is a decentralized, P2P, communication protocol for sending messages over a secure connection on the internet. ByteMail was created in order to provide people with a way to send messages without worrying about a third party intercepting and reading these messages. ByteMail ships with a webUI as well as a command-line UI.

If you are a developer and would like to contribute to the ByteMail project, check out the project on Github here: http://github.com/ByteMail

Official project home: bytemailproject.org (http://bytemailproject.org/doku.php)

ByteMail seems interesting but the fact that the project seems to be at its infancy is a bit of let down.
It will definitely discourage many potential users from adopting it.

Yes it's still in it's infancy but it's usable now and supports multiple OS and it's free and opensource.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Lauda on August 23, 2013, 06:58:14 PM
Looks like we're all screwed. At least until The Pirate Bay releases Hemlis.  ;)
https://heml.is/

Soon™
For anyone curious and lazy to google.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on August 23, 2013, 07:22:07 PM
Looks like we're all screwed. At least until The Pirate Bay releases Hemlis.  ;)
https://heml.is/

Soon™
For anyone curious and lazy to google.

Thats for sure a strange mix, encrypted end to end communication and posting your personal infos on facebook and twitter.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 23, 2013, 07:42:57 PM
Thats for sure a strange mix, encrypted end to end communication and posting your personal infos on facebook and twitter.

As long as it's optional, I don't see a problem. It's good to be able to share personal information, privacy is about choosing which information to share and with whom to share it.

My problem with Hemlis is this:

Quote
Your server only?

Yes! The way to make the system secure is that we can control the infrastructure. Distributing to other servers makes it impossible to give any guarantees about the security. We’ll have audits from trusted third parties on our platforms regularily, in cooperation with our community.

As much as I applaud their effort, this shows that they simply don't get what "security" and "privacy" mean.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Lauda on August 23, 2013, 09:38:22 PM
Looks like we're all screwed. At least until The Pirate Bay releases Hemlis.  ;)
https://heml.is/

Soon™
For anyone curious and lazy to google.

Thats for sure a strange mix, encrypted end to end communication and posting your personal infos on facebook and twitter.
Well my facebook not being private is not a concern, since it's constantly being cleaned up. What i send in messages on the other hand, should be, as there tends to be valuable info there from time to time.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 23, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
Did anyone on here donate to their project?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: stevegee58 on August 24, 2013, 12:03:53 AM
I'm in the process of setting up my own email server.  End-to-end encryption, including the server data itself.
I'm the only one who has to trust it since I'm the only one using it.  Come at me, bro.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 24, 2013, 12:33:24 AM
I'm in the process of setting up my own email server.  End-to-end encryption, including the server data itself.
I'm the only one who has to trust it since I'm the only one using it.  Come at me, bro.

I thought "end-to-end" referred to the sender and receiver. If you're not encrypting the contents of the emails with a key specific to your recipient, or if someone send you mail in cleartext, that can be read in transit.

But yeah, good for you. Hopefully we'll see more of that. I'm possibly returning to hosting my own mail again. I remember it being a hassle, but I suspect that with or without the root password my hosting service can paw through everything I've got on my VPS. I certainly trust them enough not to do it… unless they get pressure from the government. *sigh*


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: justusranvier on August 24, 2013, 12:40:35 AM
I run my own IMAP server (Dovecot) on a home server and use Fetchmail to download mail from my various email accounts.

It's nice because it lets me collect all kinds of mail into a single mailbox that can be read from my PC or phone. I've got a VM running a POP/SMTP-enabled version of Bitmessage that Fetchmail can poll, so that pulls any messages I receive via that network into my normal workflow.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: joesmoe2012 on August 24, 2013, 01:27:24 PM
I think setting up your own email solution is probably the least secure option. It's very difficult to properly setup a secure email solution with proper encryption and anti-logging.

Installing Ubuntu and some mail server ontop of it doesn't provide any more security than using PGP with gmail. Also, unless your a unix expert, securing your own unix system can prove to be difficult, especially if you are ever targetted (and your mail server would stick out like a sore thumb in the headers of any email you send).



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 24, 2013, 09:10:58 PM
I think setting up your own email solution is probably the least secure option. It's very difficult to properly setup a secure email solution with proper encryption and anti-logging.

Installing Ubuntu and some mail server ontop of it doesn't provide any more security than using PGP with gmail. Also, unless your a unix expert, securing your own unix system can prove to be difficult, especially if you are ever targetted (and your mail server would stick out like a sore thumb in the headers of any email you send).

I'm not sure where you're getting this. No, as I pointed out earlier, if you aren't encrypting the messages before they get sent out into the wide world that isn't any different than gmail. And the complexities of securing a server against attack are probably wider than the scope of this post.

But what you know for sure is that if law enforcement has a warrant for the contents of your computer that there will be a knock at (or down) your door and you'll either have a warrant in your hand and an opportunity to call your lawyer or else come home and find your computer missing. You at least know that the system is compromised. With gmail, we pretty much have to assume that everything ever said in an email on gmail is duplicated in close to real-time on the NSA's servers.

And what are you talking about regarding your mail server sticking out like a sore thumb? I'm imagining an NSA agent looking through logs and stopping, shocked. "Hold the phone, Joe, look! This email was sent from LINUX. That NEVER HAPPENS. Quick, send a SWAT team to that location!"

I'm also curious what you mean by anti-logging. The only interpretations I can come up with are either impossible or trivial. And googling the term just came up with a bunch of Earth First websites.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: moni3z on August 24, 2013, 09:37:03 PM
Just make your own, using a VPS in Iceland and either using qmail + djbdns or OpenSMTPD.
Look around for scripts that will encrypt all incoming mail to your public PGP key or do it yourself: https://grepular.com/Automatically_Encrypting_all_Incoming_Email  if you want now make it a Tor hidden service and access it .onion to download encrypted messages

Obviously this is just to prevent passive government spying and political blackmail, but doesn't prevent targeted spying (they break into your VPS, capture traffic before it is encrypted) or NSA metadata traffic analysis seeing who you are talking to.

Countermail I would expect if you should ever be targeted by authorities they will simply feed you a MITM login screen that captures your password so they can hand it over to whoever asks for it. This is exactly what Hushmail did numerous times.

Rayservers offer a pretty attractive package as well, servers are in Panama and I believe they have .onion access but they are still a US based company so open to government harassment and coercion. http://www.rayservers.com/blog/rayservers-mail-server-features-and-faq

Apparently the guy who runs Torservers.net posted to tor-talk mailing list he was creating his own Tormail for free use https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2013-August/029464.html





Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: moni3z on August 24, 2013, 09:42:27 PM
With gmail, we pretty much have to assume that everything ever said in an email on gmail is duplicated in close to real-time on the NSA's servers.

Gmail according to posts on Hacker News will feed you a new TOS to agree to should they receive a national security letter to hand over your emails. If you find yourself logging into gmail and having to agree with new TOS then ruh-roh.

Setting up "anti-logging" is dead simple. NSA left this handy bash script for debian lying around one of their command & control servers: http://pastebin.com/vyfwkXm8  they also used OpenVZ because apparently forensics on their virtual drives are much more difficult (http://www.securelist.com/en/blog/750/Full_Analysis_of_Flame_s_Command_Control_servers). Doesn't really matter though, not like there won't be logs from the ISP/host of every email that was relayed to you or every ssh login.



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: testconpastas2 on August 25, 2013, 06:24:54 PM
Support http://www.mailpile.is/blog/ .Eventually  it'll become a mail client-server, 100% Free and Open Source.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Ente on August 26, 2013, 12:43:19 PM
Looks like we're all screwed. At least until The Pirate Bay releases Hemlis.  ;)

What does The Pirate Bay have to do with this?
(at first I misread some Dread Pirate thingie here..)
Well isn't there (more) established solutions for end-to-end encrypted mobilephone messaging?
Redphone, Textsecure for example.
More on Android:
https://encrypteverything.ca/Cell_phone_privacy_guide_%28Android%29#Encrypting_communications_and_files (https://encrypteverything.ca/Cell_phone_privacy_guide_%28Android%29#Encrypting_communications_and_files)

Setting up "anti-logging" is dead simple. NSA left this handy bash script for debian lying around one of their command & control servers: http://pastebin.com/vyfwkXm8  they also used OpenVZ because apparently forensics on their virtual drives are much more difficult (http://www.securelist.com/en/blog/750/Full_Analysis_of_Flame_s_Command_Control_servers). Doesn't really matter though, not like there won't be logs from the ISP/host of every email that was relayed to you or every ssh login.

Now that's a treat! Thank you! :-)


About the whole thread:
Different ideas, needs and concepts seem to be mixed here.
- Anonymous mail? Anonymous IM?
- End-to-end encrypted? Non-traceable?

I, personally, liked tormail for it's non-traceability. GPG and OTR is great and all, but simply doesn't work with 99% of the recipients. So I *assume* my mails will be intercepted and use onionland for doing stuff anonymously. This works with many regular mailproviders, obviously.
Now if you want to communicate encrypted, it all depends if it's a few, recurring contacts, or *any* contact.
And, honestly, I don't see a place for a self-hosted mailserver in this discussion. If your mail is (GPG-)encrypted, a regular mailservice works. If it's not encrypted, consider your mail intercepted, analyzed and manipulated. Right behind your mailserver.

Oh, maybe I should edit "I" to "a friend of mine"..

Ente


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 26, 2013, 07:04:47 PM
And, honestly, I don't see a place for a self-hosted mailserver in this discussion. If your mail is (GPG-)encrypted, a regular mailservice works. If it's not encrypted, consider your mail intercepted, analyzed and manipulated. Right behind your mailserver.

I believe (and obviously can't support this) that intercepting packets in flight is still too massive a job for any of the three-letter-agencies to be able to do effectively. That doesn't mean that they aren't trying, but the variables involved in how network packets get routed, the amount of traffic, and the difficulty involved in putting all that data together and building a coherent picture from it on a nanosecond by nanosecond basis are most likely still beyond the capability of any organization. That said, of course that doesn't mean that they aren't trying. The question is: how much of the traffic are they able to "read?" Is it 10%? 1%? 0.0001%?

So I agree that anything not encrypted should be *considered* intercepted, but that doesn't mean that other measures shouldn't be put into place as well.

The fact that the TLAs are still issuing orders to companies like Google and Facebook—and Lavamail—indicate that they still need to read email at the endpoints in order for them to reliably get what they want. The advantage to having mail served by a local server is twofold: first, it makes it necessary for them to show up at my location and serve the warrant (or Security Letter) directly to me, so I know that it is happening. Second, it makes that kind of surveillance much more expensive and difficult to keep secret. You might be able to keep Google and Facebook and Apple shut up about what you're doing, but the more people/companies they order to surrender system passwords, the more some of those people will be squawking about it.

Also, it's not just governments (or our own government) that we need to worry about.

Decentralization is not a silver bullet, but it is nevertheless desirable.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on August 26, 2013, 08:05:00 PM
The question is: how much of the traffic are they able to "read?" Is it 10%? 1%? 0.0001%?
They say:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324108204579022874091732470.html :D


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Ente on August 26, 2013, 08:55:47 PM
And, honestly, I don't see a place for a self-hosted mailserver in this discussion. If your mail is (GPG-)encrypted, a regular mailservice works. If it's not encrypted, consider your mail intercepted, analyzed and manipulated. Right behind your mailserver.

I believe (and obviously can't support this) that intercepting packets in flight is still too massive a job for any of the three-letter-agencies to be able to do effectively. That doesn't mean that they aren't trying, but the variables involved in how network packets get routed, the amount of traffic, and the difficulty involved in putting all that data together and building a coherent picture from it on a nanosecond by nanosecond basis are most likely still beyond the capability of any organization. That said, of course that doesn't mean that they aren't trying. The question is: how much of the traffic are they able to "read?" Is it 10%? 1%? 0.0001%?

So I agree that anything not encrypted should be *considered* intercepted, but that doesn't mean that other measures shouldn't be put into place as well.

The fact that the TLAs are still issuing orders to companies like Google and Facebook—and Lavamail—indicate that they still need to read email at the endpoints in order for them to reliably get what they want. The advantage to having mail served by a local server is twofold: first, it makes it necessary for them to show up at my location and serve the warrant (or Security Letter) directly to me, so I know that it is happening. Second, it makes that kind of surveillance much more expensive and difficult to keep secret. You might be able to keep Google and Facebook and Apple shut up about what you're doing, but the more people/companies they order to surrender system passwords, the more some of those people will be squawking about it.

Also, it's not just governments (or our own government) that we need to worry about.

Decentralization is not a silver bullet, but it is nevertheless desirable.

I see your points!
My approach, however, comes from two directions:
- be paranoid, assume the worst
- playfully wrap your mind around it for beating an overwhelming thread or creating a 100% secure system (you see the "playful here, right?)

For the real situation, out there, you are right!

Ente


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 26, 2013, 11:26:45 PM
Self-hosting is a way to protect against court ordered censorship of users or protect the mail server from direct database access by NSA. The e-mail still can and will be read when it travels the internet in unencrypted form. The solution already exists and it is called PGP encryption. But almost nobody uses it.

They say that they don't commit crimes so they don't need encryption. But most people still wear pants in public even if they don't hide crimes under them. The ignorance of average computer user is unbelievable.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on August 27, 2013, 05:34:14 AM
Looks like we're all screwed. At least until The Pirate Bay releases Hemlis.  ;)

What does The Pirate Bay have to do with this?



Because a founder of The Pirate Bay is behind the creation of Hemlis.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Pellefot on August 27, 2013, 06:24:56 AM
I haven't seen anyone mention www.anonymousspeech.com so i will.
Its main selling point for me is that it requires no Javascript so no badman can hijack the site and insert funky code as we saw happend with tormail. Has some others neat features as well like time-delayed emails. I havent used that function but im guessing it uses a rnd delay before sending your message, very cool.
And yeah- Bitcoin accepted!
Enjoy.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 27, 2013, 01:24:41 PM
Not entirely true about JavaScript and hijacking. If the server is rooted or seized by pigs they can add anything to it. Tormail also did not require JavaScript.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: b!z on August 27, 2013, 01:56:57 PM
Not entirely true about JavaScript and hijacking. If the server is rooted or seized by pigs they can add anything to it. Tormail also did not require JavaScript.

I think he means the site still works if he disables JS in his browser


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: 2dogs on August 28, 2013, 03:47:00 PM

They say that they don't commit crimes so they don't need encryption. But most people still wear pants in public even if they don't hide crimes under them. The ignorance of average computer user is unbelievable.

+1


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 28, 2013, 09:27:51 PM
They say that they don't commit crimes so they don't need encryption. But most people still wear pants in public even if they don't hide crimes under them. The ignorance of average computer user is unbelievable.

I share your frustration with the difficulty in getting people to use PGP. Though I'm nowhere near as frustrated by the fact that average computer users won't use PGP as I am by the fact that getting liberty- and privacy-minded technically savvy and proficient people to use PGP is like pulling teeth.

"Yeah, I've been meaning to get around to it. It's really important, I agree." Wait two weeks, ask again for their key, get same answer. Rinse, lather, repeat.

I'm at the point where I won't talk about PRISM or any of the zillion surveillance scandals with anyone who won't generate a set of PGP keys. If all they want to do is complain and hope someone else does something about it, I've got no time.

Now back to the average user. Your analogy is flawed and unfair.

1) Most everyone around us already wears pants. Anyone who doesn't faces social (and probably legal) repercussions.
2) Most everyone has been taught to wear pants from a very young age. It has become habituated.
3) There are advertisements everywhere making most everyone think that they will be sexually desirable if they wear the right pants.
4) Most everyone already has a pretty good idea how to use pants.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 28, 2013, 11:50:42 PM
Quote
1) Most everyone around us already wears pants. Anyone who doesn't faces social (and probably legal) repercussions.
2) Most everyone has been taught to wear pants from a very young age. It has become habituated.
3) There are advertisements everywhere making most everyone think that they will be sexually desirable if they wear the right pants.
4) Most everyone already has a pretty good idea how to use pants.
1) Some of them will find it in hard way that encryption is a must. Our president's adviser found it in hard way http://www.dzeltenais.lv/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/rgle.png and this is he most decent picture that was copied from her hacked e-mail.
2. Let's teach our children how to use encryption from very young age. Let us be the last generation of neanderthals who run around without pants!
3. Let's advertise that 4096-bit RSA keys are more sexy than 2048 ones!
4. Using PGP is not harder than squeezing into pants. At least for person with 130+ IQ


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 29, 2013, 12:05:18 AM
GPG PGP has it's shortcomings also ....


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: smscotten on August 29, 2013, 02:25:58 AM
Quote
1) Most everyone around us already wears pants. Anyone who doesn't faces social (and probably legal) repercussions.
2) Most everyone has been taught to wear pants from a very young age. It has become habituated.
3) There are advertisements everywhere making most everyone think that they will be sexually desirable if they wear the right pants.
4) Most everyone already has a pretty good idea how to use pants.
1) Some of them will find it in hard way that encryption is a must. Our president's adviser found it in hard way http://www.dzeltenais.lv/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/rgle.png and this is he most decent picture that was copied from her hacked e-mail.
2. Let's teach our children how to use encryption from very young age. Let us be the last generation of neanderthals who run around without pants!
3. Let's advertise that 4096-bit RSA keys are more sexy than 2048 ones!
4. Using PGP is not harder than squeezing into pants. At least for person with 130+ IQ

1) You don't have to convince me of that. (Although, actually, that's a great reason that everyone else shouldn't use encryption. More pics for the rest of us.) Still, the social repercussions are relatively rare so far, at least compared to not wearing pants in public.
2) Yes, but that teaching starts now or at most 20 years ago. Don't go around blaming the people that didn't get taught from a young age for not having been taught.
3) Yes, lets! And that advertising starts now. Don't go saying nasty things about the people who haven't gotten the message yet.
4) I disagree. It's a whole new vocabulary. I've been using PGP (or I ought to say I've been making PGP keys for myself; it's only recently that I've had anyone to exchange keys and emails with) for nearly 20 years and I still feel like I'm just barely getting the hang of things like managing circles of trust. Granted, you don't have to learn all that right away just to encrypt a message but there are a lot of ideas that are important that go along with just encrypting messages. And 130+ IQ is what, 3.5% of the population? Depends on what scale you use, but no matter what you are a long way from "most people."

Really. Sit down with a reasonably smart person who wasn't either a math or computer science major and try to show them how PGP works. If they are indeed reasonably smart and don't have some kind of mental block about it they will get it, but it will take some time and effort on both your parts. It will be time and effort well-spent, but don't pretend it's trivial.

My point is only that we have a task of educating others ahead of us. Calling people 'unbelievably ignorant' for not yet having learned about PGP doesn't help.

marcus_of_augustus: to what shortcomings are you referring?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 29, 2013, 03:10:31 PM
PGP Web of Trust is for preventing use of "fake" keys. It is unnecessary for end-to-end encryption as long as the key fingerprints are verified offline or some other reasonably safe method.

Basics of GPG is no so difficult to understand. The problem is lack of software that uses it by default. To use it one need to install Thunderbird, configure POP3 access, then install GPG and then Enigmail. And configure all of this and store the e-mails on his own computer's harddrive. This process filters out large portion of users who don't care about maintenance of his computer or only use webmail from random computers.
GPG PGP has it's shortcomings also ....
Everything has it's shortcomings. When used properly GPG will protect the contents of the message. The sender and recipient still be known to NSA.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: joesmoe2012 on August 29, 2013, 03:39:37 PM
PGP Web of Trust is for preventing use of "fake" keys. It is unnecessary for end-to-end encryption as long as the key fingerprints are verified offline or some other reasonably safe method.

Basics of GPG is no so difficult to understand. The problem is lack of software that uses it by default. To use it one need to install Thunderbird, configure POP3 access, then install GPG and then Enigmail. And configure all of this and store the e-mails on his own computer's harddrive. This process filters out large portion of users who don't care about maintenance of his computer or only use webmail from random computers.
GPG PGP has it's shortcomings also ....
Everything has it's shortcomings. When used properly GPG will protect the contents of the message. The sender and recipient still be known to NSA.

And since multiple messages are encrypted with the same static key, if the key is ever compromised, all prior communications are compromised.



Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: MysteryMiner on August 29, 2013, 05:02:53 PM
PGP Web of Trust is for preventing use of "fake" keys. It is unnecessary for end-to-end encryption as long as the key fingerprints are verified offline or some other reasonably safe method.

Basics of GPG is no so difficult to understand. The problem is lack of software that uses it by default. To use it one need to install Thunderbird, configure POP3 access, then install GPG and then Enigmail. And configure all of this and store the e-mails on his own computer's harddrive. This process filters out large portion of users who don't care about maintenance of his computer or only use webmail from random computers.
GPG PGP has it's shortcomings also ....
Everything has it's shortcomings. When used properly GPG will protect the contents of the message. The sender and recipient still be known to NSA.

And since multiple messages are encrypted with the same static key, if the key is ever compromised, all prior communications are compromised.


It have easy solution - don't let the private key to be compromised! Seriously, if encryption secret key is compromised then it is game over.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on August 30, 2013, 01:20:45 PM
Another attack on the Tor network or "just" bots:
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2013-August/029582.html


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: Ente on August 30, 2013, 02:13:18 PM
Another attack on the Tor network or "just" bots:
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2013-August/029582.html

uh, wtf?
Real attack, or a huge botnet switching to tor maybe?

Ente


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: NewLiberty on August 30, 2013, 04:46:40 PM
I'd guess some cloud service is being utilized to spawn a bunch of clients for some legitimate privacy concern purpose.
Sure, it could be a bot-net, but that would be... wrong.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: madmadmax on September 25, 2013, 09:54:23 PM
Quote
1) Most everyone around us already wears pants. Anyone who doesn't faces social (and probably legal) repercussions.
2) Most everyone has been taught to wear pants from a very young age. It has become habituated.
3) There are advertisements everywhere making most everyone think that they will be sexually desirable if they wear the right pants.
4) Most everyone already has a pretty good idea how to use pants.
1) Some of them will find it in hard way that encryption is a must. Our president's adviser found it in hard way http://www.dzeltenais.lv/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/rgle.png and this is he most decent picture that was copied from her hacked e-mail.
2. Let's teach our children how to use encryption from very young age. Let us be the last generation of neanderthals who run around without pants!
3. Let's advertise that 4096-bit RSA keys are more sexy than 2048 ones!
4. Using PGP is not harder than squeezing into pants. At least for person with 130+ IQ

Woah woah there mate, we need at least 160+ IQ no?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on September 26, 2013, 01:50:31 AM
You need 130+ IQ for using PGP? A banana peel could do that if it took its time.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: gorgorom on October 11, 2013, 01:32:06 PM
I think everyone should know about and/or use it as email. We need to start a campaign for BitMessage to get it known!


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: markjamrobin on October 11, 2013, 01:36:14 PM
I think everyone should know about and/or use it as email. We need to start a campaign for BitMessage to get it known!

What about TorChat?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: bernard75 on November 22, 2013, 02:49:39 PM
Hello Beautiful Riseup Users:

Are we still needing funding for the coming year? Yes! We have gotten $55,000 in donations, which is amazing. Thanks all, and please donate to Riseup today, if you can (https://riseup.net/donate).

Since Riseup works to make secure and private communications, let's talk about one of the organizations we are fighting: the extremely well-funded National Security Agency (NSA), aka the shady, secretive United States spying program that Edward Snowden so excellently blew the whistle on.

Did you know the NSA has built a map of the entire world via the communication links of all email, chat, and financial transactions? This map tells a story to them about all of us. It knows who we know. It knows who our activist allies and relationships are.

And, as if that wasn't crappy enough, the NSA is trying to undermine the security of the internet as a whole by putting in back-doors and weakening encryption standards so that they can spy better. They spend $250,000,000 USD per year on this. This makes the entire internet less secure, and makes it easier for people, governments, and corporations to exploit, scam, and spy on each other.

While the NSA claims they are targeting terrorism, they have been targeting foreign politicians and companies, with evidence that this is happening particularly in Brazil and Mexico. This is plain old espionage and corporate spying. Terrorism is merely the justification for astounding encroachments on our civil liberties.

Last, we have to assume this is all the tip of an iceberg. We have to assume there are other spy agencies across the globe doing similar spy work that we don't know about (yet.)

What can we do about this? We can fight it legally, we can provide support for leakers and journalists, and we can invest in infrastructure (like Riseup) that is building alternative tools to fight the spooks.

Thanks, Love, and Rage,

The Riseup Birds
(https://riseup.net/donate)


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on November 22, 2013, 05:35:28 PM
I recently received an email from StarPage and their private email service they claimed to be almost ready to allow beta testers!
I'm excited for this! I haven't received another email since though.  :-\


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: markjamrobin on November 22, 2013, 10:36:11 PM
I recently received an email from StarPage and their private email service they claimed to be almost ready to allow beta testers!
I'm excited for this! I haven't received another email since though.  :-\

Starpage? Do you mean StartPage? If this is something different, can you explain more?


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: The 4ner on November 23, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
I recently received an email from StarPage and their private email service they claimed to be almost ready to allow beta testers!
I'm excited for this! I haven't received another email since though.  :-\

Starpage? Do you mean StartPage? If this is something different, can you explain more?


No I meant StartPage. Twas a typo my apologies.


Title: Re: Lavabit.com and Tormail Email Alternatives...
Post by: markjamrobin on November 23, 2013, 05:44:17 AM
I recently received an email from StarPage and their private email service they claimed to be almost ready to allow beta testers!
I'm excited for this! I haven't received another email since though.  :-\

Starpage? Do you mean StartPage? If this is something different, can you explain more?


No I meant StartPage. Twas a typo my apologies.

Okay, I wasn't quite sure. Thank you for the clarification.