Bitcoin Forum

I didn't know this guy but I like the way he speaks.

Check out what he says about money in this video for instance :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2690Fy0sM8


He makes a good sum up of characteristics for good money :

* durability
* divisibility
* recognisibility
* portability
* scarcity


Notice that bitcoin fullfills all of them.

This remains to be seen. Seems pretty easy to lose a wallet. Or for the network to be attacked.

Definitely not yet. Also, how to recognize an abstract mathematical concept in a way analogous to cash?

Not like cash. At least, not yet.

All you need to recognize an authentic bitcoin transfer is the proper software. And you can have mathematical certitude that it is authentic. Bitcoins authenticity is much easier to recognize than physical money.

I don't think he meant "recognizability" in the sense of being "famous"... but I didn't watch the video...


No? You can carry all bitcoins in existence in your pocket if you manage to put them all in one only address. How is that compared to cash?


By the way, Walter Block is an economist on the Mises Institute if I'm not wrong. He has a book from which I've read a few chapters, Defending the Undefendable, it looks interesting... it's on my "to read" list.

You need a computer. That alone raises the price of entry. With bank notes, you need eyes.


Can't do a whole lot with a hash value; a computer is needed. Cash is low-tech and works. Anywhere. Any time. Bitcoin doesn't come close. Here's an experiment. Go to a local market. Try to buy a loaf of bread with bitcoins. Try again with the local currency. Report your observations. Make a conclusion regarding bitcoin's portability.

Try this in a remote area in your country. Tell me what the local hillbillies would tell you to do with your bitcoins if you want to buy something.

I see potential in digital cash, but to compare it to bank notes is just unrealistic.

I think you are talking about liquidity here.

I'm not sure about the meaning of the word portability in english, but from what I understand of it, bitcoin does very well apply.  In a different manner than cash though, but it does apply.

Wow gene, I really missed you!
You successfully demonstrated that "bank notes" != "bitcoin", I'm impressed.

De même. However, my point stands. I think it is important to realistically evaluate the limitations of bitcoin rather than going all heads over heels about how bitcoin "fullfills all of" the characteristics of money. Although my point is elementary, I was surprised to see that it not obvious to some.

Also, nobody has contested my assertion that bitcoin is by no means "durable."

The ability for a currency to be transfered physically with no electricity, no computer, just "from hand to hand", is very good indeed.  And indeed you can't do that with bitcoins.

But the thing is that the ability to be transfered instantanously in very long distance with almost no cost is just about as good.   You can't do that with physical bank notes.

There are things you can do with bitcoins, that you can't with bank notes, and reciprocally.  Both currencies are "portable", but in different spaces :  physical space for bank notes, cyberspace for bitcoins.

Now you can deny cyberspace has as big an economic importance than physical space if you want.  I don't.

And it's not difficult at all to imagine physical, off line representations of bitcoins that would work pretty much like bank notes did during gold standard. If really demanded, that will be done.

True.  Especially since that's what a bank note is supposed to be after all :  an IOU.  It could easily be backed by bitcoins.  A bank note is not a currency.  It's a method of payment.

True. But "with almost no cost" is not on the list of criteria you posted above. The bank notes have equivalent electronic recognition as pertains to the corresponding requirement.

No physical manifestation (much less one which is recognized as legitimate) of bitcoin exists. That severely limits its portability as it pertains to practical use for most people.

I can carry USD in my wallet (which said hillbilly would be happy to accept) and have them represented as numbers on a computer screen (which my bank would be happy to transfer).


I suppose it depends by what you define as important. Some would consider buying food and other goods to be important. Others would consider the ability to transfer capital to be important. No matter, by the criteria you listed above, bitcoin still has some way to go. Not saying that it can't happen. Just saying that it is a bit too early to start cheer leading about how wonderful and ready bitcoin is to serve as a currency in any meaningful way.

Try explaining this distinction to a local merchant. This is the sort of pedantry which will hinder the progress of bitcoin.

How would you preserve the unique qualities of bitcoin? If it exists physically, it can be forged. Or it would depend on some central authority. Probably both.

Easy.  It will be written on it.  A bank note usually clearly states what it is.

I have a $10 bill in front of me. It says:


In a nice old-western typeface.

It also states:

I failed to locate the text which states

Perhaps the euro notes are different?

An old Swiss Frank here states:

They wanted to make a point in two languages that this note IS 10 Swiss Franks. Those guys are very well-educated, indeed.

I like this guy.  Walter Block is very intelligent.  And he says "voluntary" a lot, so I like!  :)

Imagine a BitCoin bank that creates promissory notes which are pegged to BitCoins, and then the whole miserly process begins again! LOL!

This would not happen to a large extent with bitcoins, since your wallet is your bank.  There is no need to store your money somewhere else.  Of course if you like gambling, you could lend your money to some BitCoin bank in exchange for a promissory note...

You challenged me to explain to a local marchant what a bitcoin bank note would be.  I answered you.  The fact that dollars are defined differently is an other matter.  On a bitcoin bank note we would write :  "This note can be redeemed against [XX] bitcoins in [some place]".

Exactly.  Also, there is no way you can prevent this usage from happening, with any money.

There will be a smartphone zerg rush. Once that happens, bank notes are unnecessary, only useful in a previous technological era.

Some people in Africa are already using phones as a way to pay workers, pay for stuff, etc. It already happened.

Your answer completely misses the point. You also neglected to address my assertion that any physical manifestation of BTC would just bring back problems that we currently deal with: central authority and forgery.

Perhaps there is a language barrier, but my point is that the merchant would likely not care to hear your argument. He or she wants to be paid in an accepted currency. One which doesn't require a computer with a network connection and all the associated nerdery for a simple cash transaction (I'm a nerd, so don't take offense). To him or her, your distinction about currencies or methods of payment or whatever else is less than meaningless. You must understand my point.

So let's get real about what money is to most people. Does bitcoin qualify yet? Not even close. At least not by the criteria you posted.

This has been discussed in depth in many threads. Go read, lurk a bit, educate yourself before expecting people to "address your assertions".
Not gonna lose any more time with you kthxbye

You presume far too much, sir. Unfortunately, your posts in this thread have been absolutely free of content. I know this is out of character for you, so please accept my criticism in the best possible way.

The proposed solutions have failed to offer the flexibility of hard currency (durability, recognition and portability, in the OP's parlance). Unfortunately, this is what most people require of "money" and the inability of bitcoin to match this standard remains a serious problem.

All of which are not insurmountable problem in today's economy.

Banknotes are already not making sense in the age of truly ubiquitous computing, when everybody have a smartphone. In Japan, this future is already achieved as it is already possible to purchase drinks from vending machine using a smartphone. This will become more common place in the long run.

Bitcoin is already infinitely more more portable than cash in international trade since the bitcoin economy is already an international economy. The durability of bitcoin is based on backup. This can be easily achieved by merely uploading your wallet.dat to various online services. Recognition is based on adoption rate. which depend on us growing.

All in all, paper currency will disappear based on technological evolution and more resources spent on making bitcoin easy to use.

You know not whom you are offending.  You are very nearly the first forum member to enter into my killfile.


I reccommed that you either hush up and wait in the background until you feel more comfortable with the system, and more civil, or GTFO

For me the underlying problem with BitCoin is that i can't go to my local store and buy food with it (yet).

When or if the day comes when I can, then I will start asking for my salary to be paid in BitCoins too.

An interesting point is that it has already become an international currency, which is true, as it is true for eGold. Then eGold got shut down. However BitCoin will not suffer the same problem as eGold as there is no central point of failure. The only way to stop BitCoin from ever being used is to attack the entire system within a short space of time, namely before anybody knows what is going on.

As for the definitions of money, according to the YouTube video I believe BitCoin does fulfil all those components of money apart from it having a commodity value. We'll just have to wait and see who History decides to side with!

You can buiy Amazon gift cards with bitcoins. You can buy almost everything there probably cheaper than your local general store.

You can also fill debit cards or buy prepaid visa cards.

Maybe you need to investigate further.

True I can buy many things from Amazon, but ultimately, they are in my country's currency. And the BitCoins that are given rebated are based on the exchange rate in dollars.

As for prepaid visa cards with dollars on them, I use Pound Sterling, so not only do I have to exchange BitCoins for dollars, I need to exchange the dollars for sterling, which loses the value in the first place.

I agree, the Amazon thing will be cheaper due to the rebate, which makes most of the items cheaper in the long-run, which does, indeed, make things cheaper for me than my general store. However most of the goods I'm really interested in (like food) is not sold in my local grocery store or supermarket for BitCoin (yet).

Please, keep in mind that bitcoin is less than two years old.  And though it has reached quite a success despite the fact that it is not supported by any government.  No wonder it is not accepted in local stores yet.

Give it time.

You can buy food at amazon lol.

Fixed that for you!

I stand corrected! You can buy all sorts from Amazon! Wow! Unfortunately the prices seem a little too high than what I would pay in supermarkets at the moment, but I wasn't aware of this, thank you, noagenda. And considering the delay in getting the items, this is why I don't buy groceries online. However its a good start!

One thing that is impractical for them to sell is meat, for obvious reasons.

I appreciate that BitCoin is a very young currency, hence my operative word of "yet" in every single statement I make. I will give it time, indeed, but at this moment in time, to me, the BitCoin has little value to me. When BitCoin becomes much more widespread, then maybe I will hop in. In the meantime, the only thing I can practically do is hoard as many BitCoins as possible until the day when my local halal meat shop will accept BitCoins for a chicken!

Those of you talking about buying gift/visa cards are describing bitcoin's use as a scrip, similar to casino chips. I need to exchange the chips (bitcoins) for something that is universally recognized. Currently, we only have a very limited number of places where this exchange can happen (like the cashier's window at a casino).

Your examples essentially make my point that bitcoin currently fails to satisfy the requirements for money, as enumerated by the OP.

As for buying things on Amazon (after exchanging my bitcoins for a form of payment actually recognized by Amazon), I now need an account with Amazon (likely along with a verified credit card), in addition to a computer with internet access. Not only that, I must also wait for delivery. How exactly is this superior to just using real money?

I've saved the best for last:

This post really helped me shake my hangover this morning. Nothing quite like a good laugh to get the blood flowing. As for the "GTFO" attitude, that is an excellent way to build an echo chamber.

All socialists that I have seen on this forum are driven out by almost relentless argumentation, alone. They left on their own.

But you, on the other hand, seem to piss off people more readily than any socialist crank that come here. I don't know what you did, actually. So, I hold no personal grudges against you.

Thank you... I think. I suppose I just want to see bitcoin succeed. That is never going to happen with a forum full of people that think that bitcoin is able to do things that it is demonstrably incapable of doing. I can understand that people don't like being told that they are being unrealistic, but scrutiny is the price of improvement.

The community here are very interested in making sure bitcoin succeed. There's had been historically genuine disagreement in the past, such as the wikileak debate, which was pretty heated. So this isn't an echo chamber, at least, not always.

However, don't think that people will necessary agree with your arguments just because they're open to criticism and suggestion on how to strengthen bitcoin.

Please don't get me wrong. I work in an environment of constant argument and disagreement. I rather enjoy it, actually. What I mind are facile responses and lack of openness.

Hey, I want to reply to the OP and skirt this confrontation between Hero Members and Junior Gene.  Walter Block is indeed a bad-ass.  I have been a student of Austrian economics for a while now and really appreciate their logical consistency.  If you haven't been there I definitely recommend going to Mises.org and exploring.  You can sign up for their daily article, or just browse the website for articles and podcasts.  They have a LOT of free literature there.  It's fantastic.    :)

Also, in response to the "what is money" posts, I recommend reading Murray Rothbard's book "The Case Against the Fed".  You can find it free in PDF form ( http://mises.org/books/fed.pdf ) or order it from the Mises site  ($7) .  It's a rather short book so not too time consuming.  What's really interesting is that the first part of the book he covers the history of money and explains what money is and how it works.

Anyway, I'm new to BitCoins and would really like to see them succeed as they provide a path around State controlled currencies.

I downloaded the BitCoin program yesterday evening and have been trying to generate coins all night and still have not received any.  Is this normal for this stage in the BitCoin controlled inflation program?  From reading about BitCoin I was under the impression that a user like me would be able to generate some BitCoins by running my laptop for several hours.

Well, that information is kind of outdated, since it was written it became much harder to generate coins.
If you're really serious about mining come hang out on #bitcoin-dev for help :)

As more computing power has become used for generation (particularly GPU cards), the generation difficulty has been automatically compensating by increasing greatly.

Plug your generation speed (kHash/s) into the generation calculator here, to see how long on average it will take to generate a block of 50 coins:
http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but for a laptop it's likely to be more than a year.

Brutal.  I just plugged in the calculations and you're right: my average is about 209 days.  Once again I've arrived at a trend a year or so too late.  So my laptop chugging away at generating bitcoins is pretty worthless.  Ha ha, oh well. 

My goal was to generate enough bitcoins to buy my wife a Valentine's day gift from Shaman's Scents to prove to my friends that bitcoin is a legitimate currency. 

You could join a pool mining effort.

Ha ha, I actually just joined one right before I read your post.  :)

Someone will probably point out that I can always buy bitcoins and use them to purchase the Shaman Scents products, but my goal is to get bitcoins without using any standard form of currency.  So either mine them or receive them in trade for goods and services and then use the bitcoins to buy something.  This is mostly as a proof to skeptical friends or family.

What city do you herald from?  Someone here might have some work for you to do.

Obviously it would be cool to have found bitcoin at the very start, but it's still early. You can join a pool and you'll get the same amount, but spread out. So if it would take 200 days to get 50 coins, you will get roughly 1 every 4 days with the pool. http://mining.bitcoin.cz/

Also you can get .05 from the faucet to show the mechanics of sending and receiving.

I live in Alaska....   :P

I joined Slush's pool mining operation, but am having trouble with the actual mining program.  Mostly because I don't know what the hell I'm doing and have very little tech/programming experience.

Are you using Windows?