Bitcoin Forum

I'm coming to Seattle, China (especially where I am) is not a place to try to start or run a world changing business.

I'm hooking up with bitoption and a few other cool guys there for a couple of months, it's going to be awsome.

However there was one little problem, I don't have a lot of cash(and no credit card), I've got bitcoin, not cash. So I set out on my epic journey to find a way to pay for the ticket with bitcoin. I wouldn't really be able to use MtGox and have them do an international transfer (do they even do that?).

My search led me to bitcoin-otc where I found a trader who was willing, for a small fee to act as a proxy and buy the tickets for me(thank you jjjrmy).

The price I paid for a roundtrip? 99btc

And there you have it, the first airline ticket bought (via proxy) for bitcoin.

On a related note, I'll be paying rent with bitcoin and getting some hacking space paid directly(no exchange), bitcoins growing.

https://glbse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=131#p271

No, I'm planning to stay with a bitcoiner, said bitcoiner has convinced the guy who's running the hackerspace to accept bitcoin. There are a few people there who are into bitcoin so were turning it into something of a bitcoin hacker hub.

Great! Although I may have to ask - what part of China were you at and why do you think it's not a good place to start a bitcoin business from?

I understand that animosities from the Chinese government may occur and would be harsh in any way. But so would be any other countries attempted crackdown. Did you have any bad experience or is it just the general social sentiment that made you think it wouldn't work out?

I'm asking because I'll be going to Shanghai myself in a bit and plan on convincing some retailers there to start using bitcoins for their import/export business.

Fixed that for you.

Also I suggest you read about Wu Ying for an example of why China isn't the best place for an entrepreneur:

http://www.economist.com/node/18560729

This is not the point I tried to bring across. I am in no way arguing that China is a just and fair society by Western standards, for it is clearly not. As far as I can tell it is still highly corrupt with investors having to rely on political connections more than anything rather than entrepreneur spirits and competence. However, this also seems to leave lots of room for major errors of judgement. It is just too easy to deamonize everything there is about China.

We have to understand that the dynamics at work there cannot ever be the same as is here in our cozy European or American homes for their social (culture/politics/history/economy) situation is completely different from ours. As a matter of fact, if you put some effort into it, it is not very difficult to understand the intentions behind many of their actions. If I had to run a billion people company that had a tendency for civil war, I'd also try to control the media - and so would you if you wanted to live.

Now, I am not saying we should all embrace the Chinese dream now and completly ignore our lessons from the past. I do however find it counterproductive and unwise to completely ignore the Chinese market. It simply is too big for that. So instead, I ask for the community to be smart enough to consider the context and not just see everything in black and white.

And just for the record: our societies are hardly without errors either. When busy critizing others, it is all too easy to forget about that.

But back to my original question here addressed at Nefario: was there no way to make thinks work "over there"? Maybe you could share some personal experiences with us, so we all learn from our mistakes. Thanks.

Umm...I was simply pointing out that it would indeed be different than "any other country," as a reaction to your statement suggesting that the Chinese government's actions would be equal to that of any other country's government.

Anyway, I'm also interested to hear about Nefario's experiences. :)

I don't care for china's way of doing things. They have very heavy censorship, and a communist government by nature is no good for any kind of investing.

This is also not mentioning some very unethical trafficking ventures they do in prisons.

If i had a choice i would defect from the world and conduct business in limbo.

We call that cyberspace.  ;D

I did have a bunched typed to say how that is wrong before I posted the first post, but its beyond the scope of this discussion.

Inspired by Falkvinge text? :)
This has enormous potential. Particularly if entrepreneurs like you manage to make it faster than regulators can act. The bigger it gets, the harder it is to be stopped.

@Nefario, if your goal is to create a business, wouldn't Singapore be a better call for you? They are ranked better than US in all economic freedom indexes I've seen, and they are closer to you.

I'm in Nanchang, not a big or coastal city. Shanghai should be better in that there are more services tailored to non-Chinese but apart from that it's more or less the same.

Currently it is illegal to accept virtual currency for real world goods in China, only for virtual goods also sold by the currencies issuer.

My main reasons are:
Banking- it's really hard to move money out of China, doubly so if you're not Chinese
Transport- Might just be my city, but it takes me more than a day to get to somewhere I can catch an international flight.
Connectivity- Getting worse with more VPN services being blocked or shut down, and being slow in general.

Glad to hear people are using it other than to just trade for cash or on gambling and SR.

don't forget porn. after all that's what the internet was made for.

If you want to immigrate, you should look at Vancouver, British Columbia. It's only a few hours drive from Seattle, but twice as big and with a large Asian community. Canada has much less strict immigration laws as well and you can buy Cuban cigars there.

But a much higher cost of living...

Edit: I guess that depends on how you live, though.

My understanding after reading your post is that a plane ticket was bought using US Dollars.

Grats on the ticket purchase and the planned move.  What do you plan to do with  glbse?   Given how strict the investment laws are in the USA I hope you have plans for a smooth turnover to keep it running and  not just shut it down!

BTC Economist, eventually most things must be converted to local currency at some point. The fact is I paid with bitcoin.

twobits, the move is specifically for GLBSE, were heading there to grow, not shutdown.

Just please don't hijack the plane. I don't want the FBI barging in on charges of aiding terrorists.
lol ;)

If you need anything else you can always reach me on IRC.

Hope you had a safe flight and you had no problems getting through security or anything.

:)

You gave someone bitcoins, but the ticket wasn't purchased with those bitcoins.  The conversion to local currency has to come after the purchase in order for the honor (First airline ticket bought with bitcoin) to be relevant, imho.   

That's going to take a LONG time.

Also, no I did not make it ok, didn't make it at all. Well I did, as far as the airport in Seattle. More to come later.

The ticket has come to nothing, here are the details of why.

http://blog.glbse.com/no-electronic-devices

That sounds like it was brutal. Great read though.
Did you sleep during that whole time? How long until you can apply for a new Visa?

that's some BS.

So from Sunday evening when I boarded the train to Beijing to when I arrived back home on Wed afternoon I had not slept or lied down on a bed, the entire time was sitting or standing. I was the living dead by the end of it.

I can apply for a visa right away but there is like a 2 month queue just for the application in Beijing. I could fly to the UK and apply there (which would probably take 2 weeks) since I'm British, and then go but thats a huge waste of money, and a lot of times been wasted already.

Wow...that sucks man.

I agree that it probably wasn't the best idea to go into detail about bitcoin to those CBP maroons.  I wouldn't talk to those guys about anything they didn't specifically ask about....especially anything more complicated than a ham sandwich.

Next time...ship all your electronics as a parcel before you leave.

Since you are British, perhaps you can fly into Vancouver Canada and cross at a land based border crossing?

IDK man...  better luck next time.

 

I don't care for the USA's way of doing things. They have heavily biased corporate-controlled media, corrupt government, close-minded people and no consideration for other earthlings. They don't feel obligated to fullfill their part of international treaties. They do not feel they're bound by international law. They invade countries and fuck up other peoples lives based on greed.

Don't even get me started on their domestic and offshore prisons.

If I had a choice, I would ignore the US.

(oh, about the airline ticket and chinese bitcoiners: awesome! continue!)

Now now lets not get into a name calling contest.

come to Australia!  The land of the labour government and taxation.  But the people (on the most-part) are good.  :D

yeah, you're right, sorry. I got a bit carried away.

I know, I was there fou a couple of months (in 2000 also), people complain about the poisonous animals (spiders/snakes etc.) but I actually enjoyed that part. Top it all off I got bit by a bull ant, god those things are HUGE and NASTY.

I just might do that, but not for the time being, I need to focus on making GLBSE better now rather than all the paperworky bullshit.

QFT.

so they have a copy of your wallet.dat?

where are you now?

Not really - now keep in mind I only skimmed the article - it sounds like they asked the boilerplate question of "do you have enough money to support yourself for your stay". Vague answers will work here, specifics generally will not if you're deviating from the holiday-norm. Trying to explain cryptocurrency to customs is about the dumbest thing one could do short of saying "man this chock of coke in my ass is really uncomfortable".

The fact is it sounds like OP tried to come in with assets he intended to sell while here - to my knowledge, the US ICE types don't view Bitcoin as an exchangeable currency, the best they view it as is an asset that can be sold. I'm no immigration lawyer, but I don't think "well I have some Bitcoins I can sell" is the same thing as "well I have $4,000AUD that I'm going to convert to USD" no matter how much Bitcoiners wish that were so.

Heya Nefario, there are a whole lot of problems with US and Canada customs. You could have all the correct credentials, credit card, bank card, sponsors=US/Canadian citizen that sponsors you, if that agent you walk up to woke up on the wrong side of the bed, he'll deny you.

The computer systems, they run names, finger prints, iris recognition scans. You could come from a country that the US/Canadian computer systems cannot access, the guy could be a murderer/drug lord/arms dealer and get in to USA or Canada. Now for an example, I am a US citizen, I try to get in to Canada, they run my name through the computer system that they have access to US's computer systems, they ask if i have any criminal record, yea, I have a dui, they run my name find the dui, other records pop up from 1996, Paraphernalia and Grand theft auto, which I was never convicted of, but the records still show the reports. I get denied. But the murderer is able to get in because the US or Canadian computer systems don't have access to his country's computer systems because "they might be a poor country and or don't keep record". This is all as an example.

I am sure that US systems have access to British systems which Canadian is ruled under, as we all are allies.

This is so problematic it actually screws over a US citizen that wants into Canada or a Canadian that wants to get in to the US.


It would be worse, as it shows on his passport that he had tried to get in from china, and now he is in Canada trying to get in the US.

They will deny him without flinching.

---------

Sorry to hear about your loss trying to get here to the US. Best thing to do is go forward with a visa, get a sponsor if possible or a few references showing you have a few friends. If you do get in within the next year or more, do not stay any longer than the the time they give you. You might ask for 4 months, they might give you two weeks.

Since around 2007, they connected these computer systems all together to fight terrorism etc. Add to it, it screws over the tourists.

The entire situation with the borders/customs is screwed. Lookup youtube videos of denial of entry from and to the USA. You will find a lot of disturbing videos how cocky the customs agents are & we are neighbors.

Good luck to you in the future.

It's an example with a lot of specific detail.

What can you say, I'm open minded. I know a Canadian friend that was recently denied from coming into the US because that person had 2002 charge and not conviction, just because you are not convicted does not mean you could cross, it shows all records whether or not convicted.

This is by all means showing how stupid customs can be.

Eh no they don't have a copy of my wallet.dat or any of my passwords. I think I mentioned in the article that both the phone and mobile had almost nothing on them.

I'm back home in China now.

You just made it on GeekWire...

http://www.geekwire.com/2011/bitcoin-befuddles-customs-agents-thwarting-seattle-visit-digital-currency-guru

Cheers,
Kermee

That whole story SUCKS Nefario.  I had a similar negative experience with them, and now I use a travel visa every time I plan to pass.  Doesn't give them a chance to say no. 

Oh wow, Geekwire. I don't really know what to say to that, I'm finally in the news.... for something I scew up.

I suppose better to be infamous than nothing at all.

Nefario.

i like the part about "digital currency guru"  :o

Yeah, heh those are the terms that journalists use for people who don't really have a formal title.

So the most formal publishings would call me an expert.
Mid tier (like this) use guru.
Tabloids would say boffin.

They could also have called me the founder of GLBSE.

Welcome to America! I like how paranoid they are about foreigners nowadays. I used to travel to the u.s. years ago for business too...never had a problem. But i stopped doing business in the u.s. that requires physical presence when they started to treat every foreigner as criminal, even if you are from Europe. Now they take finger prints, do financial background checks, you have to answer those stupid flyers before you go there and one wrong move or answer and you're fucked. Not to mention the "small" privacy breach by analyzing your phone....

Not telling everything(even when it's true and harmless) or some little white lie seems to be necessary. That's just sad and shouldn't be necessary at all. Stupid paranoia.

or "the Silk Road Affiliate".

Well hey, on the upside, now those customs officials are wondering about bitcoin, and probably reading up about it at home now!

Just got back from my computer being broken. Whoah, dude. Are you okay?

You're being a little bit too harsh on yourself...

Cheers,
Kermee

Also, when I bought it I bought insurance on it, so call Travelocity so you can get a refund?

this incident (Nefario being turned away at the US border) just got mentioned on today's TNT podcast (Tech News Today on the TWiT network). The episode is currently still live. The recording will probably be at http://www.twit.tv/tnt293 (http://www.twit.tv/tnt293) in a few hours I guess.

Sorry to hear about this nefario.

I wonder if you told them you had a few thousand in paypal if the result would be the same.

Wow, that sucks.

On the upside, we can now do some bitcoin business in China together! ;D

Maybe, where you at and what you doin?

pm sent

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NjJf3PI6y14/TjWhE9XkbrI/AAAAAAAAE5A/gbEVj1zlGak/032.jpg

Looks like someone is famous.

hehe, cool. I would have made the officer say "Ok, then, boy, let's look for these bitcoins then", when putting on the glove.

Oh god what have I started  **facepalm**

I hear Singapore is a police state. Sounds like it is a trap. Everything is free for business to come and then in a few years they'll lock everything down like China. Didn't the USSR do something like this?

Have a "friend" in the city you're landing in, have their phone number and have a story worked out with each other before you leave.
Yes exactly!

Why not just come to Mexico and then come over the border :) If they find you act a little bit dumb and say you're a hillbilly who was born down South and that you don't like to carry any ID.

If you enter a country and they have no idea where you are from you can get refugee status. A boat with 400 people from a troubled country near India I think it was showed up in a Canadian port not too long ago ...

I think the United States is Similar to Singapore. Here I believe the income tax is voluntary, but most people don't know this or are to short sighted to make use of it. The Internal Revenue Code is a code not a law. You are not subject to the code unless prescribed by law or legally binding contract. In the same way if you wire up your house incorrectly you violate National Electric Code but it doesn't matter because there is no law that says your house has to be in compliance with the code until you try to sell the house, then your house must be in code because there is a law. When you file to the IRS and put your signature on the document you are signing a contract that makes you subject to the Internal Revenue Code. So the very first time you file it is voluntary. But people are very short sighted and even if they do know this they will file anyway to be able to get their tax refund, even if this prevents them from mining and selling bitcoins later on without the income tax!

One of my teachers who is foreign was talking about companies and taxes and he said "But many company not pay the tax". You can have your company off shore and operate within the US and not pay any taxes. I think the US allows this on purpose because the US doesn't want people who are in the know to go to other countries and start their businesses there and help build up those countries. If you are a foreigner, they'll let you operate in the US with no taxes to try to make you help boost the US economy and provide employment and keep you from setting up your company in a foreign country where you would have much lower labor costs and probably be much more successful in the long run.

When something is too good to be true, it really is too good to be true!

I mine $10 a day in bitcoins and I've been thinking about what life would be like if I went to a poor country for a while and tried to live on that. It would make a good story. I was talking about it on IRC and that's what brought me to this forum.

Somebody said something about a buyer from Nigeria and I said I'd like to go to Nigeria and some people said no you don't here look at this forum post of this one guy who got stuck in Seattle. But hey in Nigeria a $20 would probably be enough of a bribe to get through and kind of problem like we saw here!

The people who are taking over the US seem to not care for bribes (silver or gold). AS was prophesied by Isaiah.

Heh, yeah it's funny this has actually crossed my mindl. Turns out that it's way easier to enter the U.S. illegally now. Just grab a flight to Mexico, and have a friend to pick you up when you cross the border. Boom, you're in.

I'm not so sure about the tax thing, law or not you go to jail for not paying, happened to Wesley Snipes when his layer told him the same thing.

That doesn't count because Snipes had filed at least one time before and made himself in to a taxpayer, as far as I know. It could also be a setup put on by the IRS just for publicity, like the Ed Brown incident.

a valuable lesson (sorry that you had to learn it the hard way) - do not even mention bitcoins to any customs/immigration/border officers, if you don't have any ATM or credit/debit cards at all then definitely seems to be worth getting hold of one before travelling, plus they are useful anyway when abroad for local funds & better than hundreds of dollars in cash which also may look a little suspect (?), or at the very least get a pre-paid VISA card charged up with some $s, easy enough to buy one online with BTC too & maybe it'd be treated as a regular VISA charge card by those vetting you

if bitcoins aren't (yet) on the entry database as undesirable, possession/use/promotion of, then a quick search (which they will do of course) would show them first hitting the mainstream news by being linked to/facilitating Silk road's exotic market place, exactly not what is going to get you fast tracked in to any anti piracy drugs war country, perhaps esp as the original SR historically links to China