Bitcoin Forum

on your face  ;D JK


So as many of your know I have decided to back away for now. Bitcoin is a cool technology but it has given us the ability to by pass the government and financial institutions with out the tools to make it viable. The guys at ripple see this too and are working on building a trust network but is far from complete or stream lined and has other issues of centralization that make it some what more susceptible to intervention. (they may be able to work that out)   

For me to use Bitcoin I need to know who I am trading with so that I can move funds between reversible and irreversible systems.     

What I need is a decentralized system of reputation management.  I want to be able to

1. ID... I want to link my real world identity to my wallet
2. Import trust... I want to link to other areas of my life to provide evidence of my character. I need to be able to import trust. 
3. Rate.. I need to be able to rate right to someones wallet ID.. That way I can choose not to transact with people that have no ratings or have been flagged with a neg rating. I bought coins about 2 weeks ago that i later found out were stolen. i dont like that
4. See the people that the people I trust trust and their reputaion.
5. Have a client that isn't susceptible to hacks that is always synced. I want my mom to be able use bitcoin too. Dont let people sign up if you cant make them safe. 
6. have a system for implementing changes

Do these things and I will come....back.


Not asking for much I know :). to be honest I dont know if technology is capable of creating a system like this. My dad is a computer engineer who has owned his own software company for 20+ years and he says if a man made it a man can break it. 


This is off a different thread ---

"I am not saying it can never work just that it doesnt work now. The guys at ripple are working on some innovations that may make it viable.

I think this is the root of the problem. In early human civilization trade was simple because you knew the history and reputation of the people that you traded with, but as civilizations grew the desire to trade outside of your trust network grew. So the need for middlemen and financial institutions came about. The problem is those institutions have siphoned off the productive efforts of their citizens or customers and have grown so powerful because of their privilege and have created a world dominated and control at gun point giving us ever growing police states and to big to fail banks. They no longer work for us but we work for them.

So the challenge as I see it is to recreate early civilization. We have a technology that can enable the entire world to know each others reputation. We can know the character of every man women and child on the planet. I will gladly trade without institutions or the protection of the state if i can know who I am dealing with. So far the reputation centers around bitcoin all start from scratch, We need a reputaion center that allows you to import trust from other areas of life, I think the guys at ripple are working on that, but as it stands now it is unusable IMO."         

I do not understand why someone would rate wallets though, it would seem to make much more sense to me to be a trusted merchant.

Then you could choose to spend your bitcoins with merchants that you trust, and develop your own network.

This is no different than the real world, people get ripped off daily and don't get what they thought they were getting.  These business are usually ousted in some way and cannot stand the test of time.

I don't want people rating my wallet, this can work in reverse on you.  For instance you engage in a transaction and you fully adhered to your side of the deal, whatever that may be and the other user rates you negatively.  Now you have a ding on your credit that you do not deserve.

Why not just make trusted retailers within the network?  Make people apply to get some cert or icon if they want to be trusted.

No need to wreck the entire foundation of Bitcoin and start another path, all of your concerns can be satisfied and still let people have the privacy of their own wallet.

As per your grandma, why on earth does she need to use bitcoins today?  She doesn't, I am sure as people grow older that are more accustomed to digital technology like the internet can use bitcoins, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out how to download and use a desktop client, especially if your on a mac :)

1.) There are a number of ways of linking your ID to an address.  But, while remaining decentralized, how do you propose stopping people from linking fabricated identities to an address?

2, 3, 4.) While remaining decentralized, how do you propose stopping people from creating multiple accounts and giving themselves fabricated feedback?  Or, how would you stop me from givin you infinitely negative feedback without just cause?

5.) We already do have clients that are virtually hack proof assuming you use them correctly.  I think you mean 'computers' that are hack proof.  The problem you seem to have is that you keep blaming "tech" stuff you admittedly don't understand.  The result is that you're identifying problems that are inaccurately defined, or that may not even be a problem at all.  Besides, what part of 'beta' project don't you understand?  Bitcoin isn't even an alpha release yet!  This should be a resoundingly clear indicator of its current (key word) risk.

6.) We have a system for implementing changes. It's called open-source code and miner voting power.

A successful merchant got hacked/scammed whatever.. I feel your pain man but the answer isn't walking away. Just establish stronger relationships with peeps you trust. Use more caution

Or....

Dont accept PayPal for bitcoins...stop trying to find a way to get around that fact.

It has to happen for it to work. Period

You have to be able to trade for debit card payments, paypal, credit cards, bank transfer. That is the only way. 

I dont have the answers but when they are built I will be back.

Social networks can be a system of reputation management, but they don't belong to the blockchain. The dollar has been very successful without a reputation management system built-in. We shall see BTC for what it is: a currency. There will always be good and bad people, exchanging fiat or BTC, but neither fiat nor BTC has any responsibility in telling who's who.

I want a car with unbreakable components - I should never have to worry about a flat tire, changing oil or batteries, and it certainly shouldn't ever be possible for me to get into an accident.  When they build cars like this, ill be back.

I'm not sure you got the point of my reply.  If I came in to your auto shop and I mentioned to you what I stated above, you'd think I'm nuts.  It's the nature of components to wear and break down over time, and a car wouldn't really be a car if it were impossible to crash it.  Likewise, some of your demands are infeasible if not impossible altogether, and furthermore, most of your complaints already have implimented solutions, but you didnt care to familiarize yourself with them. But, you don't know this is the case because, as you admitted, you don't get "tech" stuff.  However, then you go about blaming BTC for its shortcomings when really you should be focusing on your own ignorance.  

If you don't recognize how your ignorance is influencing your opinion, then you'll likely never use BTC again.  If I don't do the same, ill never drive a car again.

On a side note, i'd encourage you to think about some of your ideas  about how you would like Bitcoin to look, and then try to think about why some of them are just bad ideas altogether that, if implemented, I'd bet you'd hate.

So how do you stop a spam rating that is negative?

Reminds me of the BS credit rating system we have today. They dont care if you pay your rent, cell, and other bills on time.

Only ones they care about is your debt payments based on a loan you took out to buy something.

Technically that system is biased towards people who like to be debt slaves.

You're all putting too much effort into this. Here's the correct answer: That's ok, we don't want to play with you anyway.

What if a man you highly trust become manipulated? In today's society, it's impossible to purely rely on trust, you should only rely on your own risk management, e.g. never risk more than you can afford to lose, then all the problem around trust is solved. Being a bitcoiner, the most important thing is risk management. And by doing this you also preserve the privacy, which lots of people (especially high net worth people) desire

There are acceptable cost and unacceptable cost (which is a matter of opinion). It is a trade off. I agree tires shouldnt go flat and batteries should last the life of a car, but the cost of tires at this time that wont go flat is prohibitive. Other people feel the same way that is why they developed run flat tires and long lasting batteries, it is just a trade off more cost for less hassle.

With BTC there are alternatives. There are money transfer system that offer protection and positive identification. In your analogy there are no cars that can never be involved in an accident in the future there will be automated cars that never (or almost never) have accidents. When that time comes most people wont be interested in buying a car that is a death trap if it makes financial sense.


That is okay there is no loss of quality of life if i never use bitcoin, other payment processors exist. That dont ask that I learn It skills or net security. Bitcoin is a tool if there are better tools what do I care.

 
I already use these methods and like them quite nicely. I dont have access to bio metrics or finger print data, but I establish identity the with the best methods available when I first started selling coins i would only sell through Facebook, I could glean lots of information about the character and identity of the people i was dealing with, I already use a system of rating here on this forum. Coinbase has a wallet that requires sms verification that I use that as a primary wallet.


You dont how do they stop that here? This trust system works just fine.



That is a bullshit system, there is no method of rebuttal


You dont.. If someone has access to email and can verify it and access to facebook and can verify it and access to power bills and can verify it is 99.9 % that it is them. The way I Id is email verification, paypal verification, facebook verification, drivers licence verification, IP verification. Look at coinbases verification. They know what truck I owned in 2000 and the closest highway to my house in 97.

Bitcoin and the community might not want to admit it but you are competing with the existing system, people are not gonna become It professionals so they can send money. They dont have to with other methods.
      

Wait that is my view point

It is very good at doing that and if that is your only motivation then there is no need to go further, but the only things that happen in secrecy is nefarious.

If bitcoin is only good for buying drugs, gambling, or paying for peep shows that is fine but is of no interest to me.

I am asking that it do both open and honest transactions and private and nefarious ones too.   

Yes it does it is called the court system

unfortunately that is true, but as you point out in today's world. Because others believe they can dictate what can and can not be done there are valid reasons for secrecy.

I dont consider smoking week to be nefarious but because others do and have the supposed right to enforce their world view on others it does create the need for secrecy.    
 

That is why I ask that it do both.
    

tl:dr

Put up bounty and people will do it, no one cares if you "come"

Once again we agree, but there is at least the pretense of a system for retribution.

that is fine but if you cant persuade me (who wants it work) you will never get the general population to use it. They dont know that the worlds financial system is flawed the dont realize the mechanism that creates war and inequality is the control of money. They dont give a shit about that. All they know is that this is easier or this is better. 

Once again I agree that fiat is a store of value over the short term and so is bitcoin but the difference between money and currency is that money is a store of value over the long term and currency is just a means of transacting. Money is a store of value over time because it is a commodity oil would be good money if it was easily transported, so would chickens they have real value and are not just a representation of value.  

 

Except for being innately fungible.

It comes down to this for me.

Money is real wealth

Currency is the illusion of wealth.

Bitcoin is just an idea ones and zeros floating in the clouds. I cant eat it or cloth myself with it. It requires the internet and electricity which a large portion of the world doesnt have. I can go any where in the world with a chicken as money and it will be valuable. I wouldnt recommend saving with bitcoin it isn't real.   

Maybe spider silk or nano bees.

Obvious reasons why chickens dont make good money, but anything real is better to store wealth than currency.

I dont recommend keeping fiat as savings either, lucky for me i dont have to worry about it. I dont have money or currency.  :)

Bitcoin could be good currency but will never be good money.

If you strap an eagle to a dinosaur, it may not benefit either, but think about it in other ways, all of these can exist, it doesn't have to be a direct tether, there may be another path, don't give up.

If you see bitcoins coming from this address: 1DabsXmraEr18jdEryck8jzcFku873xmRf

You can consider it green. It will not be double-spent. It is linked to this forum.


And, I will probably use that address for maybe another 2^256 times, or until ECDSA is broken, or the RNG on my offline computer is broken, whichever comes first.

Of course, I still suggest you wait at least one (1) confirmation.

Some of these things already exist in some form, and none of them would've prevented what happened to you.

You keep going back to the wallet hack and I keep telling you that is not why I am getting out of supporting and using coins. There are many factors that is a small one.

Yes it is....

"Someone hacked my wallet.

September 27, 2013, 10:07:04 PM

Not that any body around here gives a fuck and I am sure that its my fucking fault so you can save you fucking comments.

This was it for me. I am gonna forget about fucking coins."


Seriously sublime, this needs to stop. How self-important can you be to expect something as big bitcoin to undergo radical change just because you're unwilling to make a change as simple as adding two-factor authentication. 12 year old who play WoW have 2FA on their Battle.net account, but you act like it's some moral offense that you should have to do the same.

people who want to be transparent and use their real identity with bitcoin already can do so, they dont need the information to be encoded into the bitcoin transaction. and those who do not, dont have to. bitcoin lets you decide. but when you hand a dollar to someone, it doesn't come with a copy of thier identity and their personal info. obviously that would be dangerous

This is basically what I was thinking, though I didn't respond as bluntly.

This whole thing started off with you (sublime) being robbed of <2 btc. Then, when the attention shifted toward your lack of care regarding the mismanagement of your funds, you got defensive.  So, you began finding anything negative that you could say about BTC regardless of whether it was relevant to the theft.  This is obvious -- how could someone who claims to lack technical knowledge know why some particular aspect of BTC is flawed and then assume that there must be a fix?  Hint: you can, but you're likely going to be wrong right from the get go.  Most of your criticisms are non-issues because there are already solutions to them, while other criticisms are just inaccurate altogether.  Furthermore, some of your demands and criticisms inherently contradict others.

Your ego is bruised, and since there isn't anyone specific to blame other than yourself (identity of the thief is unknown), you attack a protocol that cannot act on its own.  If you're not going to use BTC, at least provide us with the real reason, namely that you don't know how to use it and don't want to learn how.  That's a more respectable position in my book.  I do believe that BTC is too technical or inconvenient right now for many people, but if you operated a PayPal/btc business for over a year, then don't try to convince us that your 'laziness' is justified, expecially when BTC is still in BETA.

The dollar and the court system are two different entities. There is no direct relation between them, and you can imagine either one living without the other one.

Now, if you really want a reputation management system inside BTC, you may be thrilled to learn one already exists. Just check this address:
http://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T

But frankly, the owner of this wallet is stupid. It's so easy to create another wallet, and get a brand new clean ID. BTC always gives you a second chance, if you want to start again.

Fine have it your way, I am sure your know better than me what my motivations are.

No it isnt I decided to abandoned bitcoin before that.

There is going to be a new monetary system, It wont be bitcoin. It will more than likely be SDR's. 

After you are done telling me why i am getting out of bitcoin. You can read these.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2013/04/18/bitcoin-combines-ph-d-level-computer-science-with-sub-kindergarten-level-monetary-understanding/ ---  bitcoin's monetary base is not adjustable


http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2013/04/16/bitcoin-whatever-it-is-its-not-money/   Just like the dollar you cant define a bitcoin.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2013/04/11/bitcoins-are-digital-collectibles-not-real-money/

These articles are pretty bad.  

Edit: I take that back.  These articles are awful and argued horrendously.  False assumptions and invalid conclusions abound.

Saying something is horrendous doesnt refute it.

Feel free to define a bitcoin to me i would love to hear it.

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but from what I've read bitcoin is best described as a store of value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value). Either way, it doesn't really matter. Just because it's not considered money doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Gold isn't considered money, but it definitely has value.

Gold is considered money by a large portion of the world, just because helicoper Ben doesnt think is money that doesnt mean much.

I never said it doesn't have value just that it will never have mass appeal and can not replace the dollar. That is my motivation and the reason I am moving on.

It is still fair at buying drugs off the internet as long as you do it quick.

Boitcoin is an awful store of value.

Ron Paul to Ben asking to define a dollar--  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgXCBetCYVo

I mean bitcoins purpose goes above and beyond just this, the bounds are limitless, I feel like that is the whole point behind it. It is literally in control of the user, anonymously. The power, THE POWER!!  :P

I mean the bounds are limited... the lack of Power, the lack of power... that is my whole point.

just to add my worthless opinions  ::)

but i tend to agree with the OP on most aspects or at least the basic concepts.
Sometimes i find people dont want bitcoin to change from what it was originally "launched" as. However isnt the whole idea of Bitcoin "change"?

Maybe many of us here are fine to use bitcoin as is, but everyone is not (and never will be) as "good" with PC's as the members here.

The day when my mother tells me she has a bitcoin wallet will be a great day for bitcoin!

I wont leave bitcoin until the "changes" are made though, i will try in my own way to help make the changes...

Ford

See ya!

Holiday I think you are getting me and my view point about what money is and what currency is.

A good store of value is stable over time like land, oil or gold. You know things that people will always want and need. Your defense could have been used for every fad that has ever come out in the short run like baseball cards, pogs, Pokemon and beanie babies, people are gonna realize that there wont be wide spread adoption and that there are some serious limitations to the technology and when they do we will get a price that is needed to support the actual market not the speculative market.

Bitcoin isnt special, people will realize that they can start annoyances markets that using their own coins or any of the massive number of digital coins out there now. The silkroad will have to shut down at some point, sellers on bitmit will realize that there isnt much that they can do with the coins.

If you are using bitcoin as savings. I worry about you and hope you have an very quick and easy way out when things go to shit.       

Later..


TheBitcoinMuseum.com  This is where the long term investor will do well IMO. Bitcoin themselves not so much but the memorabilia will be very valuable in the future. Nostalgia isnt going anywhere.

A bitcoin is anything that isn't a non-bitcoin.

There.  A perfectly accurate definition.

btce   26.81%   7761.12   80.00 USD

Bitcoin is everything but bitcoin itself.  It is everything and nothing all at once...I see now it is clear

btce   26.81%   7761.12   80.00 USD

As valuable as it will be, all donated or subsidized donated items will NEVER EVER EVER be able to be sold.  I'm hoping one day that people will be able to walk through a rather large room, or house to see bitcoin history.  right now, it takes up a 25 litre box :P