Bitcoin Forum

Utopians?

Yeah, you know.

Those Mooney-eyed malcontents who think that the World can be shifted into peace and harmony if we'd only give each other a group hug, give up our possessions, wear goofy clothing, burn a lot of smelly incense and bang on little bells and triangles whle trying to convert you and collect donations.............................................

But I digress!

Ah, Bitcoin!

The PERFECT underground currency; a peer-to-peer virtual currency, free from government control and interference; free from taxation if you had worked it properly, untraceable and the ideal currency for a completely anonymous world-wide network of free marketers, buyers, sellers, investors...

..in short, a Brave New World of independence and freedom.

And then came the Utopians who desire that Bitcoin go "mainstream".

And then came MtGox which firm thorougly mishandled almost everything it touched.

Then Dwolla which said it was not doing precisely the things that it was doing, violating any number of currency laws and irritating the shit out of the US government which shut it down quite handily.

Then came the governments, which are here to help you, of course; which governments began to set up controls on cybercurrencies, establishing all manner of rules and the associated penalties for the violation thereof and just making a mess out of the beautifully simple idea of a peer-to-peer method of exchange of value.

We had it made.

They blew it.

Now we have to go through all sorts of monkey-motion to secure and keep our hard won assets thanks to these people.

Maybe next time around the Utopians will be kept out as the knuckleheads and dreamers that they are and a new currency will be established which will remain free from government influence and be true to the original intent.

Maybe.

But I doubt it.

What blew it was the greed of people who wanted to use FPGAs and then ASICs to grab a bigger share.
This led to centralization of the network, which lead to corporate/government takeover.

See: 'Yifu now working with "famed banking family" to help government track addresses'
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333211.0

I would not call them Utopians, but cold hearted capitalists, ready to sell their bitcoin souls for greater profit.

If you want the Utopian/communist nirvana it can be found in Litecoin network where everyone has a fair chance to gain the same equipment to mine the coin supply.

You don't get it do you?

Bitcoin IS a "capitalist" venture, designed to protect assests from the greedy claws of government.

Why should everyone have a "fair chance"?

Seems to me that Bitcoin was established to be used by those smart enough to take advantage of it.

Well, it was, anyway.

Financial Darwinism at its best, I think.

My $.02.

;)

I like capitalism, I love that the currency keeps up with inflation, and that it is an honest accounting (true capitalism).

I'm just saying everyone from the get go could see Bitcoin was going to be centralized and we would lose control of it.

Litecoin fairly keeps the printing press in the hands of the people which keeps it decentralized. Bitcoin greed lost sight of that.

I think the Utopians you're referring to believe this to be Utopian and themselves normal :P

You may well have a good point there but I will speculate that those who profit most will be the large investors with the Blackhatters right behind them.

Bitcoin was perfect for Blackhat and still is if its worked properly.

My $.02.

;)

Well, although I pretty much agree with you on this one, I'm not sure greed was the cause but I'll have to think about it for a while and get back to you.

My $.02.

;)

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

BTC has been functioning as a pyramid scheme for a long time now, earlier adopters see deflationary profits when new people join.  That means their is a massive across the board incentive to expand the pyramid, everyone in BTC knows this and has known it for ages.   When that desired expansion runs up against the rules of the current financial system anyone with a brain can see that conformity to rules is more conducive to continued growth then flouting the rules.  This is why every 'high-roller' is on the side of obeying the law and ditching the under-ground nature of BTC, you silly anarchists and libertarians have served your purpose and are now just being bypassed.

This is not an accident, it is the inevitable result of the design of BTC, if your a cryto-anarchist hacktivist libertarian types your role has been to fuel the middle phase of a pyramid scheme, but like all such schemes it expands by it's own necessity.  Thus all your cherished ideals are to be crushed by the monster YOU helped create.  The only way a crypto-currency can true to any kind of ideals is if greed is not a factor and for that to happen you can't have this kind of deflationary pyramid scheme, a currency would need to EXPAND in step with it's adoption and maintain stable value, aka it would need to NOT be a pyramid scheme, as soon you people accepted deflation you had effectively SOLD OUT any ideals you might have had.

+1

if Bitcoin taught me one single thing, it´s for sure the huge advantages early adopters have (also like your pyramid scheme analogy).
This is especially apparent in the various altcoins where everyone tries to recruit new users in order to expand the pyramid.

(and of course the last ones who invest in the pyramid scheme are screwed and left with holding the bag)

But... the whole idea is that everyone gets a fair chance. And continues to do so.

If not, we might as well stick with the crony capitalism we already have.

If indeed you mean true capitalism, as opposed to crony capitalism, please start calling it a free market.
It think that will cause less confusion in a multinational forum

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

There's simply no pleasing some folk is there ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ku1A5Ox8U

... Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody
     
This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.

There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.

Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.

Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.

Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.

It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw

100% agreed on that point but try telling the so-called "liberals" that!

My $.02.

;)

Phoenix, Arizona checking in. :)

http://azcapitoltimes.com/files/2011/05/goldwater1964poster-193x300.jpg

You have no idea what true capitalism is.

My $.02.

;)

What did I miss?
I'm not hard to convince these days...


edit:
I should say that I did agree with your post, I just can't divorce me from the idea that capitalism as we know it is directly involved in the making of the current delusion we call democracy

Bitcoin was doomed the moment it tried to be free from government control.  Simply because government is not and has never been the problem.  Government is a dependent tool of the broader financial system.  A victim, just like the people, of this oppressive, debt-based monetary system controlled by the capital holders.  I agree that a non-debt based currency is necessary to break this grip but this MUST include government because it is government that can prevent banks from reassuming power.   It's banks that need to be excluded and as long as political rhetoric  (Democrat, Republican, Libertarian) fuels continued separation of the people along these lines, the handlers of this system will maintain power and we will all likely suffer for it.  

I think your view of capitalism is based on the few rather than the many and the way things really work..


Here is an example of TRUE capitalism!:

http://manfrommodesto.hubpages.com/hub/Lincoln-Electric-Case-Study

My $.02.

;)

Fair enough, even though it sounds a bit like communism.
If I wan't to work 14 hours a day when everyone else is working 8, I will do so. And I won't ask for permission  :'(

OP is engaging in revisionist history.  Documented facts clearly show that those pushing for regulations were not utopians, but pragmatists who were drawn to Bitcoin for technical and financial reasons.

Please show us such "documentation".

Thanks in advance.

Then Satoshi came along and said fuck this, I'll do it.

Bitcoin is whatever you want it to be... i'm sure someone will figure their way out of this mining centralization... if only all those ASIC chips could stop mysteriously being delayed. :) I'm sure there is someone out there able to capitalize on this... for the greater good, it is demanded.

I'm sick and tired of people talking about how great Capitalism is when you don't have a clue what it IS.

Capitalism is an economic system based on borrowing money from BANKS at INTEREST to finance investment activity, and more recently consumer spending.  THAT IS ALL

It is NOT Entrepreneurship
It is NOT Free-Markets
It is NOT Industrialism

Yes in America we have all four and people have mashed all of them together in their minds into a kind of Monolith which is above reproach.  But if you dice it out, you'll see that the benefits have all come from the latter Three causes, while Capitalism has essentially been a parasitic activity siphoning off some of the wealth production from the others.

Well, Comrade, that is certainly a new twist on the accepted definition of the term; one I have seen only in socialist and leftist literature and occasionally shouted from soapboxes in the park, much to the annoyance of passersby.

I would suggest that the following definition of the term is much more accurate and to the point:

"Definition of 'Capitalism'

An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists.
    
In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.asp

My $.02.

;)

I'm unclear on what alternative you're proposing. Bitcoin is a medium of exchange, nothing more. If you want an esoteric, largely unknown (and therefore unused) cryptocurrency there are dozens to choose from, or you can start your own and share it with whomever you wish. However, I suggest that an unknown currency is largely useless, and for obvious reasons.

Bitcoin is not Mt. Gox, or the "Utopians" (which prompts an entirely different argument about how entire economic systems are now misunderstood through sweeping quasi-spiritual dogma, but I digress), or anyone else. As a medium, it lends itself to all sorts of intermediate uses that you can take or leave (or ignore) as you choose. In short, I don't see a defined problem described, only a good deal of unfocused sentiment.

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

Centralization in mining isn't really an issue in my mind. What difference does it make? Sure no one is getting rich anymore from mining but I don't want to. I want to use it as a store of wealth and as a currency.

The pools are not going to agree to changes we don't like because they have the biggest stake to lose if the price drops.

Thak you for your kind and insigtful post with which I agree 100%!

My $.02.

;)

Without arguing for or against socialism or capitalism (which would be a different argument), I would suggest that violence is by no means isolated to any particular economic system. In fact, I would go further and say that any economic system taken to its extreme fosters abuse and violence.

For instance, there are many largely socialist Scandinavian countries right now that are much less violent and authoritarian than the US and consistently rate highest on quality of life and happiness indexes (e.g., Norway).

There are also many examples of violence in the support of capitalism, e.g. suppression of worker strikes by government at the behest of industrial powers at the turn of the 20th century, locking workers in factories leading to many famous "factory fire" massacres, the abuse of eminent domain by railroad owners during the 19th Century...the list really does goes on and on.

Of course, you could argue that these examples do not represent "pure" capitalism, but I would argue that such an ideal is as "utopian" as many starry-eyed socialists put forth.

Again, this is not to put one system above another, just arguing on the narrow topic of violence.

Bitcoin Was Perfect...............And Then Came The Humans!

Now you have a good point there!

;)

Oh how trite, my views differ from your views so I am a Communist!  In reality I am a Gesellian, an anti-communist AND anti-capitalist philosophy, but enough about me.

Your definition dug up off our modern wiki-fied internet merely crystallizes the misconception that has been around for 50 years that ALL the aspects of the American economy are integral parts of a single monolithic 'thing' called capitalism.  But this is a definition that destroys meaning and understanding by creating a kind of black-box from which we are told "all good things come".  This is no accident, your inability you understand the society we live is composed of MULTIPLE system which CAN mixed and matched without causing the whole thing to implode serves to keep you complacent and accepting of the present mix

The analogy might be something like a Aztec corn farmer believing that the society he lived in was one monolith of farming, tribal-warfare and human sacrifice.  If someone told him that human sacrifice was bad he would defend it on the grounds that it was part of the system to produce corn and corn was obviously necessary for sustenance.

We only need to look closely at your definition to see that it doesn't ever put it's finger on ONE thing to define capitalism.  It immediately jumps into the free-market and proceeds to define THAT (open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production).  Then it tells us what Capitalism 'encourages' (and here it defines Laissez-faire without calling it such) and tells us the U.S. is capitalist which is about as close as it gets to providing a single concrete definition.  So basically your definition translates to "Capitalism is the sum of all the economic paradigms operating in the U.S. today".

Further more dose it seem a bit strange to you that in that whole melange of a definition theirs is NO REFERENCE to capitol itself?  If you know your economic jargon then you know capitol means MONEY, so we would really expect their to be some reference to money and how it is supposed to work in capitalism.  But your definition is devoid of any reference to the flow of money, banking and interest payments doesn't even seem to exist in your definition.  Why do you think such BIG parts of the system are not mentioned?  Could it be that the actual productive and useful parts of our economy like Free-Markets are pushed to the rhetorical forefront while the usury that's sucking the life out of it all behind the scenes tries to go as unnoticed as possible.  Can you see how the meaning of the word capitalism has been altered to exactly what you've dutifully regurgitated to me.  And how your knee-jerk reaction to throwing "communist" at anyone who questions the system serves the banking sector.

100% Agreed!
Makes more sense than the nonsense criticism spoken by Dutch and John.

Got some bads news for you and I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Violence works.

It always starts as "peacefule" demonstrations in the streets and then accelerates into someone shooting someone else.  Always.

"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery. It cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."

Mao Zedong.

Not that I advocate violence but let's get real here, mkay?

My $.02.

;)

You guys are from the US right?

There is a certain breed in the US that seems to be completely blind, and yet proud and outspoken about it.

You can replace socialism with our new and more modern definition of capitalism in that post above and its still 100% correct.

I think that only people who have lived in a capitalist country should say how bad or good capitalist is.
They shouldn't fantasize about how communism works in RL.

Obviously , same for the others.

As I managed to live survive in both , I can only say... F***** communism.

 

Oops!

Communism failed.

"Berlin Wall" mean anything to anyone?

My $.02.

;)

It didn't fail, it became mainstream.

If greed is the motivation, who doesn't want what communism has to offer  :P

A hyper collective beyond Dunbars Numbers is always and per definition organized by organized violence (aka the state/church mafia). Capitalism is collectivism. No state - no market.

Not sure what your point was, but...

"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?"

- George Washington

mine alt currency, what's the big fuzz. Srs. this thread is dumb

You mean a "utopia"?

(Sorry, had to say it.)

Really, the "Well, it was good while it lasted" attitude of easy surrender I'm seeing on Reddit and forums is quite frankly pathetic, IMHO. Bitcoin is bigger than us. America decides that it wants to lay a heavy hand on Bitcoin? Fine, it will just redirect itself around that "error" and succeed in elsewhere in the world. Or it will evolve to meet the challenges placed upon it by an ever-deteriorating superpower. DarkWallet, for example.

Throwing up hands in despair at the first conspiratorial whiff of government intervention is juvenile. Scurrying off into ever smaller enclaves of altcoins is similarly juvenile. We live in the real world. If anyone thought the American government was going to look the other way and let Bitcoin jeopardize the future of its fiat is naive to say the least.

We meet challenges head on. At least those we believe in.

No, that is not what I mean.

I refer to an underground economy which could still exist and be very, very profitable for those who have the intelligence and cojones to participate.

LostDutchman is the name and money is the game.

Would you care to play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okjOi961fcc

My $.02.

;)

Sorry, I added to my thoughts after you responded. And they're not directed at you specifically.

NP; we are cool!

Thanks for your reply!

;)