Bitcoin Was Perfect...............And Then Came The Utopians!

[benjamindees]

OP is engaging in revisionist history.  Documented facts clearly show that those pushing for regulations were not utopians, but pragmatists who were drawn to Bitcoin for technical and financial reasons.

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[LostDutchman]

OP is engaging in revisionist history.  Documented facts clearly show that those pushing for regulations were not utopians, but pragmatists who were drawn to Bitcoin for technical and financial reasons.

Please show us such "documentation".

Thanks in advance.

[jdbtracker]

There's simply no pleasing some folk is there ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ku1A5Ox8U

... Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody
     
This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.

There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.

Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.

Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.

Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.

It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw

Then Satoshi came along and said fuck this, I'll do it.

Bitcoin is whatever you want it to be... i'm sure someone will figure their way out of this mining centralization... if only all those ASIC chips could stop mysteriously being delayed. I'm sure there is someone out there able to capitalize on this... for the greater good, it is demanded.

[Impaler]

I'm sick and tired of people talking about how great Capitalism is when you don't have a clue what it IS.

Capitalism is an economic system based on borrowing money from BANKS at INTEREST to finance investment activity, and more recently consumer spending.  THAT IS ALL

It is NOT Entrepreneurship
It is NOT Free-Markets
It is NOT Industrialism

Yes in America we have all four and people have mashed all of them together in their minds into a kind of Monolith which is above reproach.  But if you dice it out, you'll see that the benefits have all come from the latter Three causes, while Capitalism has essentially been a parasitic activity siphoning off some of the wealth production from the others.

[LostDutchman]

I'm sick and tired of people talking about how great Capitalism is when you don't have a clue what it IS.

Capitalism is an economic system based on borrowing money from BANKS at INTEREST to finance investment activity, and more recently consumer spending.  THAT IS ALL

It is NOT Entrepreneurship
It is NOT Free-Markets
It is NOT Industrialism

Yes in America we have all four and people have mashed all of them together in their minds into a kind of Monolith which is above reproach.  But if you dice it out, you'll see that the benefits have all come from the latter Three causes, while Capitalism has essentially been a parasitic activity siphoning off some of the wealth production from the others.

Well, Comrade, that is certainly a new twist on the accepted definition of the term; one I have seen only in socialist and leftist literature and occasionally shouted from soapboxes in the park, much to the annoyance of passersby.

I would suggest that the following definition of the term is much more accurate and to the point:

"Definition of 'Capitalism'

An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists.
    
In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.asp

My $.02.

[ixne]

The PERFECT underground currency; a peer-to-peer virtual currency, free from government control and interference; free from taxation if you had worked it properly, untraceable and the ideal currency for a completely anonymous world-wide network of free marketers, buyers, sellers, investors...And then came the Utopians who desire that Bitcoin go "mainstream".

I'm unclear on what alternative you're proposing. Bitcoin is a medium of exchange, nothing more. If you want an esoteric, largely unknown (and therefore unused) cryptocurrency there are dozens to choose from, or you can start your own and share it with whomever you wish. However, I suggest that an unknown currency is largely useless, and for obvious reasons.

Bitcoin is not Mt. Gox, or the "Utopians" (which prompts an entirely different argument about how entire economic systems are now misunderstood through sweeping quasi-spiritual dogma, but I digress), or anyone else. As a medium, it lends itself to all sorts of intermediate uses that you can take or leave (or ignore) as you choose. In short, I don't see a defined problem described, only a good deal of unfocused sentiment.

[Johnny Bitcoinseed]

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

[IsaacGoldbourne]

I like capitalism, I love that the currency keeps up with inflation, and that it is an honest accounting (true capitalism).

I'm just saying everyone from the get go could see Bitcoin was going to be centralized and we would lose control of it.

Litecoin fairly keeps the printing press in the hands of the people which keeps it decentralized. Bitcoin greed lost sight of that.

Centralization in mining isn't really an issue in my mind. What difference does it make? Sure no one is getting rich anymore from mining but I don't want to. I want to use it as a store of wealth and as a currency.

The pools are not going to agree to changes we don't like because they have the biggest stake to lose if the price drops.

[LostDutchman]

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

Thak you for your kind and insigtful post with which I agree 100%!

My $.02.

[ixne]

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

Without arguing for or against socialism or capitalism (which would be a different argument), I would suggest that violence is by no means isolated to any particular economic system. In fact, I would go further and say that any economic system taken to its extreme fosters abuse and violence.

For instance, there are many largely socialist Scandinavian countries right now that are much less violent and authoritarian than the US and consistently rate highest on quality of life and happiness indexes (e.g., Norway).

There are also many examples of violence in the support of capitalism, e.g. suppression of worker strikes by government at the behest of industrial powers at the turn of the 20th century, locking workers in factories leading to many famous "factory fire" massacres, the abuse of eminent domain by railroad owners during the 19th Century...the list really does goes on and on.

Of course, you could argue that these examples do not represent "pure" capitalism, but I would argue that such an ideal is as "utopian" as many starry-eyed socialists put forth.

Again, this is not to put one system above another, just arguing on the narrow topic of violence.

[Liquid]

Bitcoin Was Perfect...............And Then Came The Humans!

[LostDutchman]

Bitcoin Was Perfect...............And Then Came The Humans!

Now you have a good point there!

[Impaler]

I'm sick and tired of people talking about how great Capitalism is when you don't have a clue what it IS.

Capitalism is an economic system based on borrowing money from BANKS at INTEREST to finance investment activity, and more recently consumer spending.  THAT IS ALL

It is NOT Entrepreneurship
It is NOT Free-Markets
It is NOT Industrialism

Yes in America we have all four and people have mashed all of them together in their minds into a kind of Monolith which is above reproach.  But if you dice it out, you'll see that the benefits have all come from the latter Three causes, while Capitalism has essentially been a parasitic activity siphoning off some of the wealth production from the others.

Well, Comrade, that is certainly a new twist on the accepted definition of the term; one I have seen only in socialist and leftist literature and occasionally shouted from soapboxes in the park, much to the annoyance of passersby.

I would suggest that the following definition of the term is much more accurate and to the point:

"Definition of 'Capitalism'

An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists.
    
In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.asp

My $.02.

Oh how trite, my views differ from your views so I am a Communist!  In reality I am a Gesellian, an anti-communist AND anti-capitalist philosophy, but enough about me.

Your definition dug up off our modern wiki-fied internet merely crystallizes the misconception that has been around for 50 years that ALL the aspects of the American economy are integral parts of a single monolithic 'thing' called capitalism.  But this is a definition that destroys meaning and understanding by creating a kind of black-box from which we are told "all good things come".  This is no accident, your inability you understand the society we live is composed of MULTIPLE system which CAN mixed and matched without causing the whole thing to implode serves to keep you complacent and accepting of the present mix

The analogy might be something like a Aztec corn farmer believing that the society he lived in was one monolith of farming, tribal-warfare and human sacrifice.  If someone told him that human sacrifice was bad he would defend it on the grounds that it was part of the system to produce corn and corn was obviously necessary for sustenance.

We only need to look closely at your definition to see that it doesn't ever put it's finger on ONE thing to define capitalism.  It immediately jumps into the free-market and proceeds to define THAT (open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production).  Then it tells us what Capitalism 'encourages' (and here it defines Laissez-faire without calling it such) and tells us the U.S. is capitalist which is about as close as it gets to providing a single concrete definition.  So basically your definition translates to "Capitalism is the sum of all the economic paradigms operating in the U.S. today".

Further more dose it seem a bit strange to you that in that whole melange of a definition theirs is NO REFERENCE to capitol itself?  If you know your economic jargon then you know capitol means MONEY, so we would really expect their to be some reference to money and how it is supposed to work in capitalism.  But your definition is devoid of any reference to the flow of money, banking and interest payments doesn't even seem to exist in your definition.  Why do you think such BIG parts of the system are not mentioned?  Could it be that the actual productive and useful parts of our economy like Free-Markets are pushed to the rhetorical forefront while the usury that's sucking the life out of it all behind the scenes tries to go as unnoticed as possible.  Can you see how the meaning of the word capitalism has been altered to exactly what you've dutifully regurgitated to me.  And how your knee-jerk reaction to throwing "communist" at anyone who questions the system serves the banking sector.

[El Extranjero]

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

Without arguing for or against socialism or capitalism (which would be a different argument), I would suggest that violence is by no means isolated to any particular economic system. In fact, I would go further and say that any economic system taken to its extreme fosters abuse and violence.

For instance, there are many largely socialist Scandinavian countries right now that are much less violent and authoritarian than the US and consistently rate highest on quality of life and happiness indexes (e.g., Norway).

There are also many examples of violence in the support of capitalism, e.g. suppression of worker strikes by government at the behest of industrial powers at the turn of the 20th century, locking workers in factories leading to many famous "factory fire" massacres, the abuse of eminent domain by railroad owners during the 19th Century...the list really does goes on and on.

Of course, you could argue that these examples do not represent "pure" capitalism, but I would argue that such an ideal is as "utopian" as many starry-eyed socialists put forth.

Again, this is not to put one system above another, just arguing on the narrow topic of violence.

100% Agreed!
Makes more sense than the nonsense criticism spoken by Dutch and John.

[LostDutchman]

Got some bads news for you and I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Violence works.

It always starts as "peacefule" demonstrations in the streets and then accelerates into someone shooting someone else.  Always.

"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery. It cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."

Mao Zedong.

Not that I advocate violence but let's get real here, mkay?

My $.02.

[corebob]

The point is this: to enforce socialism you need to have men with guns willing to use them.  This is NOT freedom.

Even a child knows violence and threat of violence is wrong.

Yet many adults think it is OK to FORCE me participate in socialist ideals.  It is not and never will be.

Socialism sucks.  It is evil and against all principles of a free society.  You do not threaten violence EVER.  The non-aggression principle trumps your ideas of equality every time.

For many people immersed in public education and, dare I say, propaganda, this is new information.  It can be difficult to digest.  But once you "get it" you "get it".  Then you understand and you can never go back to thinking your old and incorrect thoughts.

Capitalism = Freedom
Socialism always always always leads to tyranny.

Thak you for your kind and insigtful post with which I agree 100%!

My $.02.

You guys are from the US right?

There is a certain breed in the US that seems to be completely blind, and yet proud and outspoken about it.

You can replace socialism with our new and more modern definition of capitalism in that post above and its still 100% correct.

[niothor]

I think that only people who have lived in a capitalist country should say how bad or good capitalist is.
They shouldn't fantasize about how communism works in RL.

Obviously , same for the others.

As I managed to live survive in both , I can only say... F***** communism.

 

[LostDutchman]

Oops!

Communism failed.

"Berlin Wall" mean anything to anyone?

My $.02.

[corebob]

Oops!

Communism failed.

"Berlin Wall" mean anything to anyone?

My $.02.

It didn't fail, it became mainstream.

If greed is the motivation, who doesn't want what communism has to offer 

[Zarathustra]

Got some bads news for you and I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Violence works.

It always starts as "peacefule" demonstrations in the streets and then accelerates into someone shooting someone else.  Always.

"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery. It cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."

Mao Zedong.

Not that I advocate violence but let's get real here, mkay?

My $.02.

A hyper collective beyond Dunbars Numbers is always and per definition organized by organized violence (aka the state/church mafia). Capitalism is collectivism. No state - no market.