Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin Gold, safe coin, bitcoinZ and others already announced that they will fork to stop the Z9 from mining their coin

https://twitter.com/SafeCoins/status/992171992915808258

https://twitter.com/bitcoingold/status/992085020142723073

https://twitter.com/BitcoinZTeam/status/992071199168630784

i am sure that bitcoin private and Zcash will follow this

lets see what will happen now

Very good to know
BTG and BTCZ are really good coins with great volume

Developers of these coins have my RESPECT and my support, I already have some coins but I`ll support even more

You still want some to not fork.

But this could be good news.

My monero Mining is much better after the fork

good i hope the fuckers that bought these units 5 , 6 - 10 plus get fucked in the ass lol

Didnt zcash dev already said that he doesnt care about  asics and that its to much hustle for him to do anything about it because he thinks thats the fight without chances to win :-\ Also add zencash on the list of coins that plan to fight asics,also anyone have idea how much % of all equihash hash zec takes?

What is.. zcash...?  :P

Komodo uses Equihash...have they announced anything regarding these ASICs?  I've been GPU mining KMD for the past four months.  Might be time to switch.

Not switching as the bulk of the coins are mined through 5% apr and NNs.

great news  :), i have 80 gpus

Zcash has already stated that even before Bitmain released an miner that he wouldn't fork it.

Zcash (ZEC)

That and the night before the bitmain announcement, zooko makes his own announcement (something on github?)  Correct me, if I'm wrong ... That didn't look good.  But then you check his twitter and he's wobbling back and forth ... Who knows what zec will do.  I don't think zooko will do a damn thing, but I'm not in the business of making predictions either.

If you have 80 Vega's, you have nothing to worry about ... Today that is ...

MINE IS TOO!!! I'm back to petting the fluffy pony now.  I was starting to feel the need to kick him, for a minute there  :)

I'm sure everyone is really concerned.  The 2 scam coins who forked for the devs to get financial gain.

This should be interesting.  Expecting to see the price drop from this initial offer, just like for the Cryptonite ASICs but maybe not as drastic.

It good to see some devs listen to the community and do the wright thing as far as ZEC it looks like they where bought by bitmain from zooko comments he's talking like O asic will take over some day so why fight them so my ZEC faith is gone zooko is going to get his 20% and thats all he cares about he used gpu miners to get his coin started now we can screw off

sounds familiar. i think it is just spelled wrong, hmm bcash maybe?

yea, familiar to me too, but can`t recall exactly... ah! it came to me! that was some shitcoin that was developed by some company that was bought by large asic manufacturer.. ;D

Now the pressure is on the coins that don't fork because of ASIC. Basically do it or slowly die  - as you can see there is so many negative comments about ZEC and ETH.
Crypto community is united.
Hope zooco and vitalik read this forum (for sure long time ago they did) and face the music.
KUDOS to all crypto community.

Bitmain has been mining these for at least six months. So if you fork then they Asic the fork and once again get to benefit for 6 months or more. Until they release the z10 or whatever.

I can understand the hate maybe towards the s9 because of the power requirements but this is 300w.

So I don't get the hate. Either you are buying from Nvidia or you are buying from bitmain. What's the difference really. There are groups buying 1000+ GPU.

Imagine if no equihash coins forked. Are you telling me those same groups wouldn't be clamoring to buy as many z9 as possible?

Bitmain could easily dumpster any coin that planned a fork. Cool you forked but not before they mined half your coins. Obviously that's hyperbole.

Making these coins actually useful should be the ultimate goal.

Also, come on devs, looking at AMD and Nvidia sales reports should have been clue#1 where the increase in difficulty came from.

1 post , is this bitmain ceo?

With Billions of dollars in excess capital i think its safe to say they likely have troll farms advocating for ASICs lol They'd be stupid not to but its annoying either way.

I don't see how Zcash don't fork.. they'll destroy their own user base and likely end up sued on multiple continents for lying to their users to get them to invest in their network then throwing them under the bus. The large Nvidia miners who invested in Nvidia rigs to mine Zcash because of what their company stated aren't going to just shrug their shoulders and move on.

Maybe 1st post, but it's pretty smart post.
Everybody knows that Bitmain is mining Equihash since some months and coins decide to fork now ??? It's just communication.
In any case, if ASIC will not kill GPU mining, FPGA will (and ETH POS too). Some companies are already working on large scale products ready to use.

Maybe it will spark some bright young mind to figure out how to unlock those mythical disabled CUDA cores on 1070s. We need  an "equilargement pill" or equihash equalizer tablet or something now to go with the ethlargement pill.

If all of the big coins forked every 6 months, asic mining wouldn't be a problem

Hopefully other larger Equihash coins follow suite and fork to disable these Bitmain ASICs.

My only worry is if the fork is done too early it could be useless? Hopefully the devs fork in June once they start shipping. If they fork before then Bitmain might be able to tweak the ASICs just enough to be able to mine the new forks.

I hope they fork sooner so we see how much of the eqihash hashrate was already asics

I feel you, but we probably don't need to see the decrease in hashrate to already know that Bitmain is already mining Equihash with ASICs.
I believe in delayed gratification and we will surely be better off in the long run if we fork later.

true , but I bet it opens more eyes

Has there been an asic where batch 1 didn't pay itself off in a reasonable amount of time?

Even the D3s paid themselves off fairly quickly, just not batches 4-5-6...

Unfortunately the miner revenue per day of these coins that will form, is irrevleant.

Most of the Equihash revenue comes from ZEC and most of the GPU mining revenue comes from ETH.

For GPU mining to stay alive and profitable, then these 2 coins need to stay ASIC free.

Easy, just take a look at the Cryptonight ASICs. They in no way paid for themselves since the Monero team was quick to fork.

I hope you seriously don't encourage people to buy these ASICs. They are not what cryptocurrencies were invented for. ASICs turn crypto into a simplistic money making scam.

Most cryptos are money making scams. 0 cares given as long as I make money.

these asics are gonna be da bomb

so 2 of them will be like 40 1080 GPUs in one for 600W ?

good deal

 :P

Exactly. This is why people who haven't invested in crypto see us in a bad light. They say its a bubble and all that because what they see is companies like Bitmain or Coinbase or companies who only care about making a quick buck.

If we are able to suppress companies like these with more decentralized services we will soon see the true value of crypto.  

How is that different from GPUs and Nvidia. How is that different from one person buying 1000x 1080ti vs little timmy who can only buy 2.

Nvidia GPU are gaming focused and they dont want you to buy them for mining. Bitmains goal is the success and health of Cryptos.

If you don't buy a z9 then it's your fault. Do you think Rolfe with multiple antminer farms is going to fork ZenCash? Zooko was smart to premine and working with bitmain.

that is great news indeed.
but I heard that ZEC will not change anything, the increasing diff will only helps to help to rise the value of the coin..
really tough choice here.. it may work .. but I guess the diff will be balanced, some gpu miners will leave mining ZEC while their leave will be compensated by arrived ASICs..

It's easy to understand i think.

Zcash win 20% reward for each block, of course they don't care about ASIC or GPU, the most important for them it's MONEY, nothing more.
That's a pretext "fight without chances to win", Monero has proved they can fight for now against ASIC.

If it's really hard in the futur they can fork for a new algorithm like X16 or Lyra2z.

It wont be that big an issue since there are other coins like ZEC. The question is how high will difficulty rise.


GPU will not survive going forward especially since asics keep winning more and more market share from GPU. They have already won the biggest algo, that is ethereum. That alone means GPU is the past. U should consider selling your GPUs.


Furthermore, there is a possibility that there are only so many crypto algos that they can fork into and soon, asics will be in all algos.
Developers will only be willing to fork so much until they eventually give up and there are only so many algos they can fork into. Once there are asics in each of them, it is game over for all these hard fork games.



Just my 2 cents and no I dont want a long argument

If ASICs "won" ETH, explain to me why I still mine ETH with GPUs and do not plan exchanging them with E3s?

I think its comical to listen to GPU fan boys cling to this statement of ultimate decentralization through gpus :-\. This is like a fairy tale dream that is just not reality.  ???It will never happen.
Asics are evolution at its finest. If you have been mining since 2011 you would understand the path of all coins (CPU, GPU, FPGA, ASICs). Altcoins are now in between FPGA/Asics. If you haven't figured that out I feel bad for you keep buying more gtx 1070 ti's at $750 a pop.
The very nature that people think GPU's are so elusive from manipulation and full of little man is just dumb. The records probably show vast majority of GPUs mining are part of big farms. 500-1000GPUs+

And at the end of the day you all should want a more efficient system and that is not coming from gpus. 8) You don't need to draw the power of the entire southern united states to mine some alt coins. So i say keep building them more efficient and let technological evolution takes its course.

And before you come back with some comment that is not well thought out..........

My opinion is coming from a guy "who had" a 500+Gpu farm in december.  :P

Because bitmain has mercifully (and to maximise profit), decided to sell their E3 at 2100usd instead of 800 usd. That and the E3 batches have not shipped yet in July. Make a guess wat would happen if E3 gets sold en masse? Eth difficulty goes through the roof. GPU miners move from eth to all other non-asic coins. GPU becomes unprofitable.


The worst case theory is that asics take over ALL ALGOS. Does anyone know how many algos there are?

Because alot of asics come out these days, is about 1 new asic a month at the moment. And yes those asics were made earlier. Still, 1 algo ever 1.5-2months is pretty fast. Eventually all algos will have asics. GPU holders would feel "forked up" ::) lol

Selling your GPU now might be the best decision of your crypto mining life buddy, especially if selling means u ROI.
U gotta sell when things shift. The biggest winners are those who sold their S9s in the December craze for like 5k USD on ebay LOL.


Most importantly, since ethereum is about 64% of all mining, if E3 price drops drastically or ETH goes POS, it is over for GPU mining definitely.


P.S> We CAN agree to disagree if u disagree with me. I dont want a long argument though.

I found very interesting ppl are arguing over decentralize and centralized , when coin mine by asic = centralized , but what you guy didnt think of it , if the dev shut it down or anything , they can fork whenever they want ? arent those centralized as well ? it still a math game over it . Even looking at monero fork nowsday i m looking for X3 to buy just to mine monero classics due to  the grow of monero fork future monero classic will work something better .

I own 500gpu farm as well but even alot fork from equihash i still find it with whatever Z9 can mine with it still will be something profitable i guess
and we all know miner have no loyalty throughout the process , and i see DCR move into Asic nowsday and i still see it grow and nothing much happen still maintain develop still going on
even currently with my Gpu i dont mined ETHash or Equiahash family tree due to power consumption is too high it does spoil ur card faster.
i m still able to find different algo to mine cause till end of the day miner no matter in what form Asic or Gpu mining is about how long u can keep the coin that is where you profit

So dont hate the world evolve  in a way you dont like it

Just my 2 cent

Yvmen

If You do Your investments based on hypothetical situations out of economical sense, continue doing so. Not me. I witnessed and participated in number of shifts in crypto mining and from experience I can tell You that easiest way of making wrong investment is ASICs purchase. As You just said - like those "shifting" to S9 in December...

Well Your "2 cents" would be 3 if You mined most profitable algos with "500 gpus"...

Totally agree. They never learn :D

Yes this is true but they also don't want a coin which has 80% of its hash power by one company.

I think the developer said that back when there were nothing but rumors over an ZEC a Asic.

Now they the product exists and with its low power draw could be a threat. They might fork with their next software update.

Here’s how to make the most money with the new Z9... buy now @ $2000 and sell on eBay for $2500.  $500 instant profit before you even take delivery!

Minus $300+ in ebay fees/paypal fees

Why should they be in trouble its not like zec will fork to combat asics,their dev team gets 20% from it anyway(and probably some more aside from bitmain)?I am guessing that at least 1/3 of total zec network hash already is coming from asics

Is not hypothetical. It is economix sense. Gpu mining is losing market share to asics and will continue to do so.
It is dead obvious that gpu mining is at the mercy of the antminer E3.

Zec and btcgold used to belong to gpu.
Asics owns zec now. Btcgold will belong to gpu upon fork...for now only

These asic manufacturers are too good at coming up with new asics. It is a matter if time before they take over more algos and a bigger share of eth algo. There will be little left for gpu to mine.....and low low profits

Major coins sia eth decred zec got taken down this year so far. Lets see who comes next.

Furthermore, big asic manufacturers are super rich from last years boom. I wont be surprised if they go for more share.

All asics fanboy can argue with all their clever look handsome words. But in fact, old cryptonight coin continue losing value everyday while fork coin have steady rise. They just want your money, they dont care if you profit or not. Even if you make profit, they dont care. Or worse, the whole cryptoworld is down, they simply dont care. They already got your money.

Calling asics embrace is simply ignorant.

Assuming there is no fork and GPU miners are forced out.  ASIC is very profitable in the short term.  Then the same arms race that everyone is engaged in continues.  Difficulty goes through the roof and profitability drops through the floor.  A new ASIC comes out after they've mined with it for months in advance, they sell it to you, and the cycle continues.  Wash/rinse/repeat.  This type of cycle is not as extreme with GPUs since the performance differential between generations is not typically as significant.

Aside from the centralization debate.  For those of us who do this partly as a hobby GPUs are superior.  Putting rigs together and tinkering with them has been a lot of fun for me.  Resale value and low cost of entry for a hobbyist, novice, or small time miner are pluses.  An ASIC is not really much fun to me.

I have to respect the fact that a specialized device like the ASIC is usually going to be able to monopolize.  If it comes to pass that GPUs are unable to mine anything decent for whatever reason I'd be disappointed and probably quit mining at that point.  Further investment would be buying the currency only.

Please look at two charts Monero XMR and  ASIC monero XMO.
 AS you all see ASIC monero goes down the tubes from .025btc to .001btc.
WHY? this is the question i ask all ferocious defenders of new technologies (ASIC) .
 The answer is sample - no  support of the community.
ASIC DOES NOT HAVE A COMMUNITY - they hijack this forum only to sale the equipment and profit on something they didn't develop, create or support.
The big farms mining and dumping on market and changing for FIAT money.
This is not good for crypto - how you can defend that, it goes against what the crypto was designed for.
We small medium or even big GPU miners are supporting coins, pushing into exchanges, paying donation fees to devs etc.

What about Bitcoin?

Maybe Zcash devs statement on not forking was a decoy. Maybe they will fork once the ASIC arrive !

IF You stop using emphasized words it WOULD not be hypothetical. Unfortunately, missing them You could not repeat Your claims...

What? Why? Both of those are scams, just like bitcoin cash or any other fake bitcoin out there. I find all this forking to fight asics stupid, tbh. I'm no fan of bitmain's monopoly, but forking projects to tone down the market dominance is basically burning the house down to fight a flood. What other company will want to get involved in making these if they can rendered useless by economically illiterate nerds?

It's a serious coin with serious projects. If they announce something and change their mind in some weeks, then they will lose their credibility to (real) investors.

They already changed their minds and spun a 180 from statements made originally regarding their opinion on ASIC resistance.

This change of mind has upset some of their backers.  I agree that yet more upset could be the result of yet another 180 degree change of direction on the issue.  Though such things can be difficult to predict.

They said that Equihash is ASIC resistant because it requires a lot of memory, it doesn't mean it's ASIC proof and they never said that they will fight against ASICs all their life. As they say now, they cannot fight all their life against technology, they have more important things to improve their algorithm. I don't see any problem in ASICs (Bitcoin, Litecoin and others are still alive), only those who put all their money in GPU are afraid. People has to stop to talk about decentralization, everybody is looking to save his own investment, they just want money. it's hypocrisy.
If no ASIC, soon with ETH POS you will see million of GPU coming to increase the alt coins difficulty and then make GPU mining less profitable. And I prefer not talk about FPGA that cannot be stopped by a fork.

I read his original statements.  Yes they never said they would fight to the death forever until the end of time to stop this swearing on their mother's grave.  The original statement is plain to me.  They are pretty much giving up without barely a whimper now.  They are clearly not keeping with the spirit of that original statement.  Regardless - the situation we have now is what it is.

I don't see it as a positive turn of events - perhaps you do.  I don't see much advantage to this.  Now we will have skyrocketing difficulty where the only way you can continue to be involved is to buy one of the new machines along with everyone else.  Causing difficulty to continue to climb and your margins to shrink again.  In the end once things settle you're back close to where you started only you went to all the trouble and expense of switching your entire setup.  And now concentrated all that hash into fewer devices, more costly devices, and devices controlled by a single entity.  An entity that at this point we are lucky in that the only thing we are (reasonably) sure of is mining privately before releasing to the public.

ASIC mining sucks.  Putting a GPU rig together is a fun thing.  An ASIC not so much.  The hobby aspect of this thing for me anyway evaporates once we get to that point.  For people who are serious investors maybe not so much.  To each his own I suppose.

Good luck to us all.

But liek... what about bitcoin? 

Evolution.

Sitting in a room with 3000 watt of GPU's vs a 300 watt Asic, sounds like a great hobby, hehe.

What about bitcoin?  Who mines it?  And with what hardware made by whom?  Connect the dots.

And sitting in a room with 3000w of GPUs vs a 300w ASIC get out of here with that baloney.  The sad thing is as loud as the ASICs typically are the GPU rig would probably be quieter.  And your not going to want either one of them running hot.

If this is evolution it's akin to a retarded fish frog growing a fourth leg after having buttsechs with a squirrel.

How long have you been mining with GPU's?

Asking seriously.

Rather than ask a leading personal question why don't you just make your statement so as to not waste your time or mine?  Thanks.

That's a VERY fair comparison, I run a ton of 1060's. 

I don't have a statement, asking you how long you've been mining with GPU's will reveal all I need to know. 

Things change.

Since late last year.
They sure do and not always wholly for the better.

Old school, huh?  Missed the boat on getting rid of those for a good price, but I guess that doesn't matter at this point ... They should have paid for themselves over and over again by now, if you bought them when they were top of the line.  

If you're talking 1070ti or better, than your 3000W figure is more than double what reality is.

What is wrong with more efficient hardware unless you have not made your money back on GPUs?

I run a ton of GPUs and I still bought some.

Only argument I can see is GPU profits will go down, which they have done so for years.

Lol,  ;)

Yeah my gear was paid off last year, buncha 1060 Asus Strixx 6gb's.   Still run several 580's & 480's. 

I'd be wasting your time at this point.  I've tried to explain it once already.  Perhaps someone else can do a better job than me.  Perhaps you have already heard it all - and feel your position is solid.

My small six GPU rig has definitely NOT paid for itself however I didn't spend so much money on it that ROI is a big issue for me.  I did this mainly for fun - because I enjoy GPU mining.

No worries, not wasting my time, was just curious because I think recently new GPU miners think Asic are the devil and in reality they are just way more efficient, yes they will increase difficulty yes it will skyrocket, but it doesn't mean they are bad.  

My GPU mining went from 4K/month to 1.5K/month.  

Just taking a shot at the Z9's it's my first Asic, could be a total bust and burial.  

I also strongly believe GPU mining will survive whatever Asic's throw at it in the near future, just will be at a disadvantage.   But eventually...... I don't know.

It is what it is.

I don't know about that. If the Z9 truly is a 300 Watt miner, you would not need to move too much air through it to keep it cool enough. I have an S7-LN that has been modded by sidehack to reduce the power and frequency so that you can spin the fan slower to keep the noise down. It draws ~450 Watts from the wall, and quiet enough that sitting about 3 feet away from me I can easily carry on a normal volume conversation or watch TV without cranking up the volume.

The fan is manually set to 20% which is reported as 1,680 r/min, and the reported chip temps hover in the 54-55C range. If the room is warm, the temps might climb 1-2C.

I'm considering ordering a Z9 to see how it does. Since crypto mining is a hobby for me the Z9 reaching ROI would be great. If not, well, it's no worse than blowing the engine in my race car. It will also add to my collection of miners, CPU, GPU, and ASIC, for whatever that's worth.

A $2000 race car engine?  What is that a junkyard LS1?  ;D

ASIC don't exactly have a reputation for being quiet.  I guess we'll see.

Actually it's a $2,500 Mazda Renesis, from a junkyard.  ;D

Correct, the S7-LN normally is pretty loud when it spins up, but it gets nice and quiet a little while after it starts. There is no way my wife would put up with a loud miner.

I've been all GPU since 2013...

if you don't know what to do with your GPUs...GPUs aren't for you  ;)

Bad analogy. I have many carbureted cars that still need assistance. Most of the carb guys I know do both. Some of the guys may be old, but they aren't dead. Oh, hey, that's like GPUs and ASICs, or maybe peanut butter and chocolate, right?  :o

No, you're not going to get any of Vosk's success by buying an antminer. Try harder.

It definitely wont be quiet. The setup of these things were never meant to be quiet. Try undsrclock and antminer such that the fan spins only 2400rpm and u will realize that even that is noisy.

Perhaps for a miner that consumes 1kW or more, but for a miner that consumes ~300W there isn't a need for huge quantities of air, unless the design is really bad. The miner looks like the usual Bitmain tube, and yes, I know that the pictures could be fake, but, Bitmain has a design pattern that they follow to keep things simple and allow for easy production at scale. I'm not saying for sure that they won't be loud, I'm just saying the probability is low. If the fan on my 450W modded S7-LN is quiet, then the same fan on a 300W miner won't be loud.

You dont see the problem in fact that only one company can create asics for zec and that its already mining with them for at least 3 months?If they were world spread and easy to buy like gpus i would be fine with this but this way its all in hands of one company

Those people like to act dumb, I refuse to believe

Look at Monero difficulty, ALL ASIC COMPANIES were mining hidden and then they all tried to sell at the same time to idiots, it's FACT

What is wrong in it ? They didn't make something bad, no centralization. Other companies can make ASICs too, you can do it too. Don't blame people who are good in business, if you were able to do it I'm sure you will have the same practices.

This company competes AGAINST its own customers, don't you get it ? They mine with the hardware, then resale this hardware as new to cutsomers. That's a scam.

If you know it and buy it, it's not. You have the choice

Bitcoin Litecoin are old dinosaur projects controlled by community. Bitman try to control bitcoin but community disagree. that is why they create bitcoincash.

Hahahahaaa good luck with that. Those cores were disbled for a reason. If they weren`t, chip would probably end up in 1070 ti. If they are disabled that means that they are either not functional, or the chip is unstable.

BTCP (Bitcoin Private) Currently Rank #45 announced to fight the new Bitmain Equihash Miner!

https://twitter.com/bitcoinprivate/status/993509511364317190

Right. We need a miracle restabalizer hashrate exapander bios pump mod injection for them. ;D

Another good news, congratulations BTCP team

congratulations for what?

They are pitting GPU miners against Asic miners, in reality we should all be one community.

bitcoin private wont be in my portfolio.

Why do people to refuse to adopt better technologies?  i'll never get it, only reason I see is people with money dumped into GPU's recently.

Weren’t the same arguments made when somebody figured out a GPU could mine 100 times faster than a CPU?

I think what the whole GPU vs. ASIC thing boils down to is the difference between the haves and the have nots!

I think you're spot on.   I don't like arguing GPU vs ASIC, but I am not going to ignore the facts.

People say GPU mining = decentralized.  Well how come I can only buy 1 Z9 but I can buy 300 RX 580's.

How is that decentralized.    Honestly need to get rid of the centralized vs decentralized debate,  ASIC's running allover the world, same with GPUs.

I'm tired of trying to explain, but let's go:

Devs wrote their whitepappers saying that they will be asic resistant, asic proof, they would change algo if needs

Bitmain and ALL Asics producers mined MONERO and dumped Asics to idiots because they knew of Monero FORK, look the hashrate of MONERO, it's disgusting this kind of behavior

They tried to sell used Asics as new

GPUs have 2 or 3 year warranty - Asics 180 days without refund

Not everyone can buy Asics, GPUs are easy to find and buy, everyone can join and make decentralization possible

Soon there will be only big farms with Asics, in a few hands

People like to say it's more efficient and will save energy, but remember Asics only mine one algo and when it's not profitable become a doorstep, GPUs when it's not profitable can be a part of PC gaming, office PC, and a lot of other uses

All stated above are FACTS.

I appreciate the reply and effort but that doesn't change the evolution of technology. 

Roadmaps change.

If you want to blame someone, blame Bitmain, not ASIC's themselves.    Also you need to provide proof that bitmain mined monero or sold used Asic's before saying what people "think".

More ASIC manufacturers would be helpful.    You're also talking about the current state of ASIC's, not future, you can already see the potential in efficiency.

If you can afford a GPU mining rig, you can afford an ASIC.   Unless you're mining with 1 card.

I get it, but you guys really just don't seem to have any open mindedness toward making mining more efficient and secure.

What would Bitmain have to do to make you happy?  Or would the addition of say a dozen other ASIC manufacturers help?

I would like to see more ideas vs everyone just bashing each other and getting pissed so that both "groups" can benefit from the time and money they've put towards a project.

Either way, good luck to Z9 purchasers and GPU owners going forward.    8)

Hey, are you kidding?
Look at hashrate of monero, seriously, if you just spend 1 minute on Google you will find the proof you need
When monero forked the hashrate and difficulty lowered A LOT, Asics were kicked out

So, it`s hard to explain when people choose not to see, like you.

I'm not choosing not to see.  

I'm asking if you can prove in a court of law that Bitmain mined with those machines.

My answer is 99.9% no.   Yet people continue to insist that they did, maybe so, I can't prove it, and neither can you.

Ok, at the moment the Asics were kicked out the hashrate droped 30% or 40% and it`s not Asics???
You have a GREAT logic

I'm not arguing that.   So much hostility around here it is unreal.   

Good lawd.

hey buddy
wait a second:
1.  when coin devs, in whitepaper stated that this new coin is asic resistant and they ask GPU miners to dig there sh...t coin and support them = who is to blame, without us gpu miners, coin devs still will be working in geek squad at bestbuy.
2. there is not court of law in crypto  - community is judge and jury.
when you see 500MH, mining fork monero and 700MH mining monero asic - what proof you need. Please stop taking people for stupid.
3. Sh...tman business model is bad - that is why community hate them. We dont hate Nvidia or AMD, they come with new hardware every 6 months - did you see any one complain.
4. Sh..tman trys to take over crypto - is that hard to understand. They dig coins before they put equipment for sale and why:
a. because they have some new updated version of it on drawing board.
b. they sale use crap for top dollars
c. they need to let the carrot on front of some idiots  and keep the crypto alive because without community  - crypto is dead. and who they will sale there outdated asic or mined coins to?

I actually Lol'd at this response. 

Holy unintelligence.

If you really want fully decentralized you would have to figure out how to eliminate the mining pools too.  ASIC's and GPU's are all still being centralized in mining pools.

I can understand the hardware monopoly arguments.  But on that front there have been some noises made about Samsung possibly making mining chips, if that were true they would immediately dominate the hardware scene for whatever algorithm they touched with the possible exception of SHA-256.  But if you look at something like X11, there are a whole bunch of competitors making ASIC's there, which is a good thing.  Even though most people who bought X11 ASIC's in the recent generation lost money (and that's basically true for all the X11 ASIC's manufacturers), what is also now true is that any new generation of X11 ASIC's will be much easier to value at release.  A very high network hashrate relative to the power of an individual mining machine means that each individual mining machine is a drop in the bucket in terms of network hashrate, which means that it is easy to judge the value of that miner.  And that is true whether you are talking about a new GPU model or an ASIC.  Look at an S9.  It is easy to calculate ROI on an S9, even if bitmain sells 10k of them this month.

ASIC's are most destructive when they are new to a given algorithm and their individual hashrate relative to the network hashrate is very high.  That's also when the ASIC manufacturer is most likely to ask a lot for them because they look extremely valuable when they are new (and they are for the manufacturer).  But bitmain in particular can pump out a whole lot of new miner models and really ramp difficulty on an algorithm that doesn't already have ASIC's, which makes valuing these new miners pretty difficult.

Hardware investments mean people are financially invested in maintaining the value of a coin.  One reason bitcoin is very unlikely to ever see sub-$1000 prices again is because hundreds of milllions has been invested in the mining gear, those miners aren't likely to dump at prices that lose them money.  In fact I would be shocked to ever see sub-$5k prices on bitcoin ever again.

Personally I have no major vested opinion on whether GPU's are better than ASIC's or vice-versa.  I own both.  I do see the writing on the wall however and plan to sell about half of my GPU's in the coming months while they still get a good price.  I think when ETH is no-longer mine-able with GPU then GPU mining in general will not be very profitable just because so damn many people are doing it.

Lol, this thread is so full of hate.

XMR network stats prior to and after fork pretty much says it all.  ASIC's and/or botnets were most certainly kicked off the network after the fork.  Probably both.  Whether or not those ASIC's belonged to Bitmain can't be proven, but you can put two and two together.  Regardless of who is responsible, they were on the network long before they were being offered for sale at a long bitmain type delay.  The fact that the network hashrate was so high for so long, prior to the announcement of a Cryptonight ASIC gives us a few hints too.

ASIC hardware in itself isn't a threat ... ASIC hardware coming from one large company is who can do whatever they want, because there is no competition at their weight is a threat.  Most people who have small-mid sized mining farms, should be able to afford asic hardware.  My concern with it is there isn't any competition on the same level to keep the big companies in check.

I don't really agree.  You don't know how long they have been in the game and neither does anyone else.  On top of that, they have a lot more money than anyone else that is attempting to compete with Bitmain. 

Also, Bitmain isn't crushing Nvidia and AMD ... Crypto mining fell into their laps.  Sure they have benefited from it, but I don't believe it is or was ever a huge priority for them.

the real fix I cen see for this is:
someone needs to come up with a hashrate stabilized way of mining the algo;  how this can be done purely client-side:  we need to brainstorm.

SSL uses timestamps;  maybe we can figure out some sort of deal like this to give an overall hashrate impact on result difficulty requirement.

I.E.  After X hashrate, your diff increases to offset to be a virtual  X hashrate.


People can get around this;  purely flat out random nonces and result ranges.   This is definitely possible.... but imagine a stratum trying to keep all of its clients records in this manner... what its checked and what it hasn't....   if you require the previous 3 nonces results as salts to the 4th nonce;  you are required to do sequential workunits..... and the random card is out the window as an option.


There are solutions to "anti-asic".  people need to "think 4th dimensionally" and consider the objective not the mathamatics side;  because the math is what the asic is good at.    Make the "meta"; the way of obtaining the result: the anti-asic strategy itself instead of the algo's individual mathematic calculations.

food for thought.



and FYI:  a subpoena on records, wallets, exchanges, etc... let alone the chip order purchase dates, board MFG and RX dates, etc for the XMR units would EASILY show if they were operating in a dishonest manner (selling used as new, etc etc etc).

The pure fact of drop in nethash at the split;  means that YES;  some of their machines were running.   Not beyond the shadow of a doubt;  but its more than circumstantial, as well as enough to go off of to open a lawsuit and obtain said legal documents/records they would have to prove their innocence.  Im not saying they were the ONLY ones with a XMR asic;  but;  Occam's razor.  I dare the imitation pundits to provide a simpler and more logical explanation.... I bet you can't.  If it were merely an issue of people not updating their miner apps;  the nethash would have climbed substantially after the fork to m7.

Sitting there and commenting with mostly denigration is extremely childish, and shows you know little about what you are speaking of... you only see a narrow slice of the big picture.

Yeah man i can make asics2 but i am already bussy with going to the Mars and finding cure for cancer,asics will be my next project after those 2 for sure.How its not a centralization if only one company makes them and mine them for months?And no other companies cant make them,you ever wonder why nvidia intel or any other large chip company didnt even tried to get in crypto mining?Its because bitmain would just reverse engineer those chips and kill the price of them thx to cheap work force since China dont care about copyrights

Why to be agressive?
There is not only one company that makes ASICs, there are many.
GPU are also ASICs
Centralization is if you own 51% of the network hashrate, they never did. Centralization can also be with GPU if one pool has 51% of the network hashrate (Ethpool/Ethermine has today 28%)

Before to go to Mars you can learn a little bit more about blockchain, ASICs, centralisation...

Writing this means you have no clue what you're writing about. Educate yourself in the first place.

who bought bitmain Z9 will face a big issues now

an i don't care if they do greed will do that so i hope they do .....

Why is it greedy to buy 1 ASIC and it's not greedy to buy 300 GPU's?

ASIC means Application-specific integrated circuit and you have some ASICs on your graphics cards to treat some special tasks. On another way we are also talking about GPU ASIC quality.

The design even at low 2400 rpm is noisy actually. Ants can go to 6120 rpm. U can try though. If u mod to lower fans, u risk frying your board only. I believe thats why u cant choose fanspeed for S9. U should just do yourself a favor and create a noisy place to put them. Furthermore, GPUs have 2 fans for about 132-130watts. Thus, is only so noisy. Antminers have 2 fans for 2-12 times the watts. If u ever use the amd gpu design with just 1 fan, not the aftermarket model, u will realize that one is quite noisy too. Furthermore, a few ants together will amplify the sound output.

Eventually, there will be no algo to fork too I would think. There will be asics in all algos lol
If E3 drops in price, GPU is fried too. Bitmain controls u lol.

Can you play a movie while displaying your OS and mining with an ASIC ?
A GPU is not an ASIC, and you know it.

As far as decentralization goes. Asics actually help decentralization more because they are far stronger.
U should be thankful that Bitcoin isnt secured by GPUs hashrate because if it was, bitmain or another asic manufacturer alone can create enough asic, and run it for themselves and control more than 51% of hashrate.


I mean look at ZEC now, it has wat 8.1 million hashrate? Thats weak. If bitmain wanted to, they can create 900 units Z9 miners, which gives 9 million hashrate. With that, they can control ZEC. Think about it.


So all those GPU coins now, u are actually not very secure.

However, I understand that GPU holders dont want to lose money. It isnt fair nor nice. I suggest u guys cut down on GPU mining going forward. Too much risk and also, the antminer E3 is out there lol. That is the key to whacking GPU mining to crap because ETH is 60+% of GPU mining.

You take the problem in the wrong way and don't understand. NVIDIA and AMD are using ASIC (an ASIC it's a chip, not the bitmain box) to treat some specifics tasks on their video cards. What we called an ASIC (Bitmain, Inno...) they are using only one ASIC dedicated to the mining task because they don't need sound, video, etc... ASICs are in a lot of electronic materials, in washing machines, TV, phones...

Tell me how you can mine etash or cryptonote based coins with your same ASIC, and how you update it with a change in the algo.

Also tell me how you can brick a GPU with a fork.

where did you see 8.1 million sols? is 421 MH if im correct this is 421 millions sols/s

I can give you facts and a 1000 different reason why but I'm not gonna try because reasoning with some one who only see it one way with no open mind is useless.

I bet you can't give me one solid reason why using ASIC Is better for every one and not just the rich .

I'm not saying don't buy ASIC do buy it but don't promote shit that takes from others that gives nothing back in turn, all for control and power which is greed when they can share it so everyone benefits which we should all want . if you think the limit on how many you buy is because they care think again all they care about is the bottom line.

It is a waste of time trying to explain greed to the greedily


OK ? ....




and the reason Bitmain won't balls to the wall it is because they know they don't know what may happen if we fight back and you can take on the big Crops an win.

No. It is only 8 million.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/zcash-difficulty.html
The calculator on wattomine also shows around 8 million. It is not difficult to take over a gpu coin by using asics.

Lol fight back. It is simply because bitmain isnt intending to damage/rob zec owners. They rather prefer to sell miners which is their work. Zec will be more secure after the asic take over. It actually helps decentralization. But everyone only cares for their own profit first of course. GPU owners will not want to mention this.

It isnt that difficult for an asic manufacturer to churn 1000 units and take over any non-asic coin. Bitmain sells around 2500 units per batch of new miners usually after all. I wonder if monero realizes this.

Maybe if a new asic manufacturer creates a new monero asic, produces a 1000 or enough of it to control monero, then, gpu coins would stop.forking. it isnt easy to do but clearly is very possible.

Because you have to spend $10k in hardware to match the hashrate of the z9?

Because this gives much cheaper access to mining than dedicated gpu rigs?

Because it uses 12x less power for the same hashrate as running on GPUs?

No more need for expensive power supplies and overprices graphics cards?

ASIC isnt a synonym for rich and it is exceptionally ignorant to think so when you do the math.

This machine would actually let people get in on altcoin mining at a fraction of the cost of a giant GPU rig that has 60+ failure points.

You wouldnt have to deal with buggy software, bad risers, and all the other things that keep GPU systems from having quality uptimes.

ASICs increase network speed. Increased network speed leads to a more secure network.


How many more reasons do you want? I can keep listing them.

You are linking a chart of DIFFICULTY when everyone else is talking about HASH RATE.

They are two wildly different things. I think you are confusing yourself. Either that or you dont understand how crypto works.

Hmmm u are right. My mistake. I googled the wrong things.
https://www.coinwarz.com/network-hashrate-charts/zcash-network-hashrate-chart
It is 412MH according to this.

1 Z9 mini = 10 kilo hash
1 Mega = 1,000 Kilo

1 Mega = 100 Z9 minis

412 MH = 41,200 Z9 minis to take over lol. Ok so it is not easy haha

Maybe asic manufacturers will make a programmable asic next so they can fork too. We will then pay leasing fees on the asic algo lol.

Bitmain site are now selling 50 units per order.

Maybe the trend will move towards asic manufacturers approaching coin devs and then making a partnership with them before releasing an asic for it.

If it is a win-win situation where profit is shared, I think they will be agreeable.

Bitmain should perhaps go approach zec devs asap? I would if I were bitmain. I wonder if they read these threads.

Or will we see a zec classic or Zec cash lol
Maybe we can also see eth cash haha

Perhaps, it is time for asic manufacturers and coin devs to operate on more friendly terms with each other rather than keep asking the other to fork off lol (pun intended)

Just my 2 cents.

zcash is laying a trap to fuck all those asic buyers hard once gear hits network that will commit with this announcement


we wanted to fuck asic buyers hard so screw off you piece of shit asic miners.  We lied on purpose to suck in morons to buy asics that we bricked .   We don't need your stinking asics 8)


Now between you and me I doubt this happens but there is zero liability from bitmain if it happens.

I agree with a lot of that.  Big downside for a small time farms is risk failure, even if you are under warranty.  You pay all shipping and other fees.  You have to deal with shitty Chinese customer service practices, which is pretty much zero customer service.  The only way they get away with that shit is because of their size and lack of relevant competition.  

I've heard more than enough horror stories from bitmain customers, that I shy away.  If they were to change their customer service practices to mimic what we're used to in the United States, I would be more open to buying from bitmain.

In life there are two sides right and wrong.
Nvidia and AMD right  - Bitman wrong.
Why because there business model is bad.
If they do business like nvidia or AMD there will be not much to talk about.
I am for improvement in technology, but not this way.
You let the ONE company to control hash rate, some crypto coins (bitcoin cash and sia)  and even known coin developers, shake there pants when they talk about Bitman, just not to offend them (ETH and ZEC) -what is this?

Crypto is not one company business.

Other then that, last year BTCZ run into problems, with one dev living the ship, all community did fundraiser to pay for websites, exchanges etc.
(I was top 10 coin holder and i give 10%) - WHERE WAS BITMAN? who they ever contribute to except screwing own customers with price gauging and sale of used equipment - this bad business practice.
 
BTW. i mine coins since 2011 and why, because is my HOBBY and i believe in Crypto/Blockchain.

ALSO ASK BITMAN monero XRO  ASIC miners if they are happy with the purchase.

lol.

good lord.   

The Z9 was my first asic. I was ashamed to buy it, I still am. This is me coming out.

I am a long time GPU miner. I really enjoy mining and at this point can't justify buying more GPUs, especially nvidia cards, given their price. I had an itch and I scratched it. I've wanted to play with one.

I talked myself into buying it BECAUSE i knew there was some risk. I am pretty sure if there was no risk I would have not gotten it. I know, stupid... I figured there was some chance breaking even wouldn't be a walk in the park and that the overall experience wouldn't be worth it. I hope I was right and that it won't be. I am a cpu/gpu miner at heart. That might make me a loser, oh well.

60+  :o

does it include every zip tie i used? does it include me slipping on the floor and grabbing the gpu rig and the pcie riser gets pulled?

keep listing them please...i want to learn more..

Because you have to spend $10k in hardware to match the hashrate of the z9?

for now yea you don't then once they get were they want it the price goes up and  it get harder to mine ...

Because this gives much cheaper access to mining than dedicated gpu rigs?
 
right now till it's taken over and if your the real fanatic26 on the forums you know all to well what they do and what they have done over the years .

Because it uses 12x less power for the same hashrate as running on GPUs?

right now maybe .......

No more need for expensive power supplies and overprices graphics cards?

you need a PSU to power it. and who uses expensive power supplies and overpriced graphics cards

I don't i do both GPU and  ASIc mining .


ASIC isnt a synonym for rich and it is exceptionally ignorant to think so when you do the math.

bet me .....

This machine would actually let people get in on altcoin mining at a fraction of the cost of a giant GPU rig that has 60+ failure points.

at first but once they hock you .. it gets costly you know that  so again false

You wouldnt have to deal with buggy software, bad risers, and all the other things that keep GPU systems from having quality uptimes.

bet me . may be some of us like to mess with so called buggy software as you call it .

ASICs increase network speed. Increased network speed leads to a more secure network.

that's good thing ? ... NO  ....  Increased network speed leads to a more secure network. not really ..


List more please !!! it is all about the bottom line say what you want or want a believe ...... an none of those makes ASIC a good reason .. over time .... at first maybe .

so again you didn't give one good sound reason ASIC is better you just made a case for buying it for now till it totally destroys the network and that's not what i said or my point .

customer service..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BtzaYpivFM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BtzaYpivFM)

Wish we could do thumbs up and down on the forums like YouTube i agree it's all about sucking you in and hocking you then over time you they screw you .

Guy in afrika cant afford 1000 asic, but have a old amd gpu. same goes for guy in latin america and asia.
that keeps nodes all over the world and helps to keep coins decentralized.
Crypto is not only for G7.
Other then that, when i got my first s1 (suppose to ROI in 30 days) before i got, it they use to sale S2  and then S4 etc. my S1 never got ROI at the time because the price of btc was low.
So people buying asics now, will for sure loose money - and the company who sold you the asics, BITMAN will take care of that - by mining with new equipment and reducing your profits. then sale use equipment again with false promises.
Here in north america this is called SCAM.

like i said before now look you can buy 50 unit per buy sigh .. it's all about the bottom line as usually and fuck the rest . an don't think bitmain has any intention of helping or caring they don't . all crops no matter were they are will hurt for the Bucks ..


Maybe if a new asic manufacturer creates a new monero asic, produces a 1000 or enough of it to control monero, then, gpu coins would stop.forking. it isnt easy to do but clearly is very possible.  
if they care like they claim they will keep fighting it .. and keep forking, it is easier to fork it then to make new ASIC hard ware to keep up with it ...not saying they won't try they will if there enough cash in it for them.

GPU mining won't die is my whole point an with the new Cards coming out who knows how much more it will do . it all costs . ASIC over time cost more and you need more to run it then you ever will with GPU . NOTICE I Said "OVERTIME" that's how bitmain works .

GPU mining will never die, Now we have a few massive projects  Raven as example ones completed will be better then ETH and new coins with better algos will come out and ask for our support.
BTW.
 Zcash is a fork of Zclasic so I would be not surprised they samply don't know how to fork:) they wait for zclasic to fork and then they will fork zclasic again:)

If E3 sells cheaper, say for 800 usd. Gpu will die. But if they drop price to 800 USD and that pushes Devs to fork eth. Then, it is another problem.



I forsee a few things possibilities occuring. Bitmain going to coin devs and try partnership, or they will make a programmable asic. Those are called FPGAs? So, dev fork away, the asic updates firmware and get the new algo working. They will still make normal asics on top of those programmable asics because normal asics are far cheaper I believe. And I am guessing the devs work fork away this time because if they fork away, the programmable asic catches them anyways. Or perhaps make an asic for every algo to the point coins cant fork, if that is possible.
Bitmain can probably design their own FPGA and manufacture it cheaper at scale.

My Point .....I'm mining raven



The other thing is ASIC is a door stop once it's used up . if they could some how over come that i think it might be worth it . as it stands now what they do it suck you in with low prices then as it things get better faster with ASIC you need 10 k worth of shit or more just to make a few bucks a day with ASIC ... look at BTC and what a 16 th ASIC miner gets you a day and then go back a few years and see what a ASIC 1 th would give you with ASIC miing it was better more Profitable etc till they destroyed it for all but the rich after greed kicked in all I"m saying is why ? .there is more then enough to go around and all ways will be why be greedy share it.

if they do  programmable asic. that might be a winner to everyone and GPU might die till then there is no way ASIC is good for much of any thing but destroying everything it touches because you can't reuse ASIC the way it is .

I"m a ware of how firm ware updates work with FPGA IVE done it a few times with some Script miners that supported it that were beast for there time .

For illustrative purposes - It will still be something like 2000-3000 dollars for an FPGA/programmable-asic that mines all algo. And 800-1500 dollars for an asic that mines that 1 particular algo. I dont know but programmable is sure to cost more.

So, I believe it will be expensive FPGA/programmable-asic created first and then followed by cheaper asics to take down certain algos. It will be a 2-pronged attack is my guess. Devs will no longer fork. Asic manufacturers win then. This is all a maybe.

Just my 2 cents speculation

power up the GPU and start mining. While mining, drag your fork across the exposed pins/leads of components on the board, soon all the magic smoke is released, et voila, GPU==brick.

https://i.imgur.com/5O0EYQ2.png

Raven is interesting, im mining it on nvidia but as always amd mine raven like trash so most of my gpus are on eth and xmr till someone released an optimized x16r miner for amd.   

how u figure that raven is better that eth though? 48mill market cap vs 80 billion and thousands of daps and developers towards  eth. 

POS, or just don't give the keys to mining software developers and your GPU will not be able to mine

 :D haha

Raven market cap is 49.000.000 today, but ones fully develop it will be top 15 in crypto. I believe with a market cap of 3.000.000.000  in a year or 2. it has all the similarities to BTC including  - no one is controlling that coin,  unlike to ZEC or ETH.  Project whitepaper is interesting,  road map, big community and big volumes on the exchanges.

watch this

https://i9.ytimg.com/vi/oPdnG03eI58/default.jpg?v=5aedcccb&sqp=CJDbydcF&rs=AOn4CLBCQgNmgaNv4wmFh35H5yTst_r5Bg[/img]]https://www.youtube.com/dashboard?o=U
https://i9.ytimg.com/vi/oPdnG03eI58/default.jpg?v=5aedcccb&sqp=CJDbydcF&rs=AOn4CLBCQgNmgaNv4wmFh35H5yTst_r5Bg
 (https://www.youtube.com/dashboard?o=U
[img)
https://www.youtube.com/dashboard?o=U

and then take part in this poll

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3668441

Thanks for the laugh

This same situation will repeat itself over and over.
An ASIC will come out for algo x and some of the coins using that algo will fork to remain ASIC resistant, and some won't.

Anyone who bought a Z9 (or other new algo ASICs) will still be able to mine something, just maybe not the coin(s) they were hoping for.

I appreciate your efforts and already voted and commented

I think Z9 price will go down soon to around $1200

Lol ... I love that!  Oh how I miss that guy!

they increase network hashrate, not speed.  Nothing but the design of the coin and block time scheme effect the speed of coins generated/transacted.

to increase the network speed; you must remove transport overhead and other associated data.....

Adding a S9 to the BTC network doesn't speed it up at all... it just adds to nethash and block diff requirements....

If there was a way to limit nethash;  then you would be onto something useful in your conceptual goal.


ASICS become paperweights.

If your notion that ASICS are good overall;  you are sorely mistaken IMHO.



And Ill quote my original reply from this thread many pages earlier:

This is it in a nutshell when I started Mining btc network was 21,000gh

My 21gh was 1/1000 of the entire network.

We made blocks at 144 a day on average just like we do with 30,000,000,000gh

I would need 30,000,000 gh to have 1/1000 of the network.

The network would be just as secure with 21,000gh in gpus if growth was capped to 1% per jump.

51% attacks would be stopped.

So many ways to do well in this game.  Other then asics.

More then 100,000,000 PCs have a gpu that makes money if it mines.

Why destroy the easiest way to get mass adaptation of crypto.

Only hope is newer coins and algos that allow gpus to earn money and spread adaption of cryptocoins.

Thanks rdluffy

Thats not Bitmain`s work, Bitmain was not fast enough this time. That hashrate is all Baikal`s work, they have been using(and producing) their machines since december and sold them once information about Monero`s fork became available.

Don't worry guys, you wont be using your GPU's for mining much longer anyway.

I'm going all in as a supplier in the sonm.io network. Livenet launches in june, but only with crypto mining IaaS to begin with.
IaaS crypto mining is basically automated mining with profit switching, aka a contract that will be generated to mine the most profitable coin when your rig is idle/has no other contracts/deals.

Later on customers will be able to rent your GPU/CPU/HDD or internet bandwidth as well. Your rig(s) will always sell to the highest bidder, which means profit will always match or be better than regular GPU mining.

Yah I think 3 or 4 companies have came out with Cryptonight asic miners.  The ironic thing is that these forks will actually drive companies like bitmain to make the miners and never sell them to the public, thus causing real centralization.  Most of the people who complain are those who spent a lot on GPUs and refuse to adapt to the future.

Bingo! You speak the truth brother.

here's the rub;  if the average joe miner wont make a profit;  it will be down to the major manufacturers only;  thus driving the value down.  IF they are the only ones mining and selling the vast majority;  well... they could hold out for an epic dump in the future... but I doubt companies like BMT can work in such a way.
notice how mineable coins always raise in value up until asics?  Theres a reason behind this.



Instead;  if they take their heads out of their asses, like SHA256 manufacturers behaved early on;  things would be more similar to the BTC side of things on the mining side with all the newer asics. If they operated in a  forsenCD (transparent) manner about their projects;  they would be trusted more and less of an overall problem.



Theres always room to argue more points further;  but this is the root of what I see that matters most out of the rest of the details.



Again to comment about my re-quote previously:

we need to change the meta.
purely calculating power was the meta in the past.    ASICS are best at calculating and you want to limit their effectiveness.

Don't focus on the calculation side.  focus on changing the meta surrounding the calcs so that the speed of the calculation itself, is less of a concern.

We can also do things like penalties in the blockchain code for 'n' blocks reported by single sources within 'x' time.

Whittle it down small enough, and you end up with only being able to mine a single GPU from a single wallet if you so desired.   Balance 'n' and 'x' based on the current hardware that is known to be available.


Such a simple and elegant solution to large hashrates.


Just think outside the box guys.

Change the meta.

dumbass the monero fork is the only reason we know about these asics
we needed to flush them out idiot, now we know what the normal hash rate for monero should be around 500 gh
if we see big jumps in succession we will fork thier doorstops again rinse repeat until they stop makikg asics
for those resistant coins and make fpgas which cost way more and can never as powerful

the battle has been joined and we will not fold just watch

many frequent forks stop all asics dead.
hash growth limits stop super farms of gpus.

I figure 400,000,000 gpus are out there right now that can mine a coin at a profit.


if ½ are big player and ¼ are small players ¼ or 100,000,000 are tiny one or 2 card machines.  This is a board broad adoption base to be nurtured not killed off.  

If you don't believe this you are the type of person that will always be dissatisfied with life and generally always be somewhat annoyed and unhappy.

So anyone reading above and feeling pissed off  about that sentence I just wrote in bold  I am talking to you. ;D
I know that sentence will anger quite a few people that want an asic takeover of all coins.

My gut tells me asic manufacturers will come up with a cheap FPGA instead if this persist. GPU miners need to do some soundproofing and they can run asics actually.


Just my 2 cents.

they will bu fpga by design can never be as power as a dedicated asic chip designed for a single purpose
which in turn limits the hashrate they can muster by a large factor.   

Remeber fpgas needs alot of ram as welll as generic programable chips with multiple pathways

mining asics are not the issue...  have plenty of asics but none that will mine and kill off gpu algos

There is no way there will be 100,000,000  or more individual asic miners.
Since the chip can only mine.

You simply  refused to talk that you want to kill off 100,000,000 possible gpu miners and replace  100,000 or less asic miners.

You refuse to talk about 2017  the best year in cryptocoins history being driven by gpus,

And you don.t mention the loss of quality gpu warranty service being replaced by shit asic warranties

yes and there are asic manufacturers that I believe am able to do that. If forking continues, they may try this.

I disagree. All they need is one programmable asic aka FPGA and gpu is dead. No more forking will occur because the FPGA will just program itself. When no more forks occur, new asics can be created to target individual algo. The FPGA is insurance in case algos fork. Another way is drop E3 price back to 800 USD. Gpu dies then lol.


I am not refusing anything. GPU mining may have surprisingly better than asics for 2017. But owning the coin wins all actually because difficulty climbs too much. U make more by owning the underlying gpu coin as well, in general.

The ball to destroy GPU is in asic manufacturers court. They want to or they dont want to only.

Keep that thought.  BTW  I am now down to 16x 1080ti  and asic for LTC and BTC

It is not that asics can win or lose if mining becomes all asic  or asic + asic /fpga  this industry will eat its own self alive.

It needs the broad base of gpus in smaller setups.  As you still refuse to see that 100,000,000 small guys getting a piece of the pie is why 2017  was a record year.

Asics only or fpga/asics  will kill it.

And I can guarantee amd or nvidia backers will create a new way to earn  that shuts out asics and fpga miners.

They simply don't want to lose the sales.

I have a viable ideas that will stop any big miner.

Ie my new coin is nvidia gpu coin   you can only send 1 miner capped at say  650sols     or like 1x  1080ti

So the benefit of a 10000 sol asic  is worthless as it needs to clock to  650 sols.

the asic = worthless
the fpga = worthless.

in fact  a new coin  such as gpuZcash  can use  the asic al-gore-rythm of equihash  but on the blockchain  limit the block winners to 700 sols. of hash

so you 10000 sol asic has to downclock to 700 sols  not a brick  but fucked none the less.

btw at zcash founders  you could do this with zcash.  and it would work.  pools would need more servers  since more workers  would be used.

program your pos asics of fpga's then  just down clock them to 7 percent  

so the 10000 sols drops to 700 sols and it saves some watts   maybe you do 50- 100 watts, but it does not look that good anymore.


so asic resistance is easy.

Lets try again.  there are two fully mature asic al-gore-rhythms   scrypt and sha 256

some al-gore-rhythms  are taking on asics and resisting
some figure we should go asic.

I am fine with  this.


I am not fine with gpus  being fully knocked out of the game.

Here is why:

1 every year gpus sucked to mine since 2014   crypto-coins had bad times.  but when gpus were good to mine crypto-coins has good times.
2 only avalon has a long asic warranty
3 all gpus have at least a 1 year warranty.

This is good news.  It seems that the Komodo team knows what they are doing and the need to mitigate the threat that ASIC's pose to decentralization isn't an issue for them.  I hope that there are more coins like this.

i dont think asics only is wrong. Bitcoin, bch, litecoin, dash is asics only and it does fine. It didnt affect their coin negatively.

The main threat is the bitmain E3 can mine Eth and it can cost as little as 800 USD. If bitmain sold it at 800 USD. it is over gpu. Because eth is 60+ % of gpu mining. GPU being forced out of eth into other coins will kill gpu mining due to super high difficulty.

asic resistance and forking is always a gamble
SIA coin didnt fork. Etn has issues forking,etc.
Anyways, I suspect bitmain is too smart and will get fpga or something if this keeps up.
As for Nvidia, they are more interested in AI and datacenters, and self driving tech,etc.
They had so much time and cant come up with a better gpu miner. Bitmain and others have done so.

The price is not $800 anymore. Last I checked it was like $2000.

Keep in mind this. If they were willing to sell at $800, imagine how cheap it was for them to produce them in the first place. Cost to manufacture was maybe $200-$400 or so.

Since it's so cheap and uses little power. They can have millions of them mining in some private farm somewhere.

Exactly. They can sell it at 800 usd if they wanted to and there is profit built in it. They just decided not to. Look at how cheap L3+ once was, 450 USD. Last year it was as high as 2k usd. And usually around 1.3k-1.6k usd. They can possible sell E3 for 500-600 USD if they wanted to and skyrocket eth difficulty. But they are going for high margin profits on the E3 at the moment it seems.

Honestly, i can`t wait for this to become a reality.

GPU miners are like the banks and corps that need govt bailout because their business model is trash

whine whine welfare, protect only my marxist interests and block others from joining the markets..
 :P

they would just write the software so one 10,000 sol asic simulates 14 miners at 700 sols and connects to 14 pools. or 14 different workers at the same pool.

kinda like a 14 core cpu. each string of asic chips works as a different worker on its own.

or is this limited sols per ip or something.. unless you get dozens of internet addys/lines that would make farms useless and gpu sales would tank anyway as each person will only buy one gpu per algo. a few 8 or whatever gpu rigs to cover a couple dozen algos and youre done.

maybe im interpreting this wrong.

since mining was designed around being able to do things as fast as possible..... no way to really limit mining speed I can think of except for a time check/counter being mixed in with the mining code as to change the value of the result obtained from said hash based on the time to calculate;  plus or minus a percentage.  Before you hash, you salt the input with a timestamp.  Then, you salt it with a ratio of the outbound result with another timestamp.    Apply the "salt" as you would a TLS handshake....  and verify the validity of a result the same way as any other; via the stratum and network nodes verifying and sharing the same clock specs and +/- error.

If the network detects too high of a result coming from a certain node;  that node will get penalized on the network somehow.... TBD....

There are methods though... but flat out putting a "speedlimit" on people will only convince them to find ways to break up their hash and have it seemingly spread across multiple sources....  IF you make anti-pool code;  people will just set up a million smaller miners.... etc.  Gotta think past all that.

Lol ... You have no concept of what decentralization means.

decentralizing isn't people hoarding hundreds of video cards - -this can be the solution to the centralization of hoarding GPUs

You have a weird idea of a solution to hoarding GPU's....by making ASIC's made by 1 - 3 companies, who also own the largest mining pools, of which those who can afford the high entry point $1500-$2000 minimum for one machine.  That leaves a small number of individuals/corporations.

I have 2 ASIC's and 2 GPU rigs and the ROI on each is night and day.   You need volume with ASIC's to be profitable.  ASIC's are like the amazon and walmarts.   It is about quantity.  I'm not saying you can't be profitable with ASIC's and those who by 1st generations are generally those who ROI on the ASIC's.

GPU is decentralized because pretty much anyone can get into the game with 1 GPU and scale up over time.  With ASIC's....you literally have all your coins in 1 basket and if that coin is forked, well you are forked too.

Very interesting point of view about ASICs

https://blog.sia.tech/the-state-of-cryptocurrency-mining-538004a37f9b

what if an algo or new stuff (whatever it may be called) is created that it hashes by rendering-> the kind of work where GPUs excel over ASICs and FPGAs...

Rendering is really not that much different from hashing different algos.

Even if there was a similiar algo like that, it would still be possible to create an ASIC.

After Sha256 got ASICs, Scrypt was created by the Litecoin dev as a way to keep it GPU mineable only.

I think it was more intensive than Sha256 but a few years later ASICs came out for that too.

Same with Dashcoin which was based on the X11 algo which was also suppose to be ASIC resistant.

So Equihash and DaggerHash are no different.

I mean like it has to be processed with a "certain" graphics work (like a secret sauce) involved in the computation..not exactly rendering..

doing stuff where GPU's excel...

a) can be merged - mix mix

b) can be separate - a security measure, like "do this stuff first" before hashing....that "stuff" is like something that may or may not be relevant to hashing but only serves as a security like a lock, where the graphics card have to produce a "key" ->the key is something that a GPU can produce but FPGAs and ASICs cannot...or something only GPUs can produce easily but others cannot.

.......what do GPUs do when playing games? maybe that's where we can find the secret sauce..

Decentralizing is when every miner download full blockchain and store it on their machine.
How we know more then 99% miner not doing that, more then 90 mine to the exchange directly

The only difference is that the DaggerHash is more GPU resistant.

Seems like the x16r variable algorithm chain should make it pretty difficult to make an asic for it.

Still possible but unlikely.

Makes raven seem like a decent project. ZEC is about the same as far as profitability goes right now. Seems the manipulators pulled all of their sell walls on Kraken for ZEC. It will be interesting to se how far it climbs before they crash it again.

Seems like it will be a good time to sell ZEC if you have it just before it lists on Gemini

Bro kraken isnt even on top 15 places with how many zec are being trade on some exchange,that wall you saw doesnt make any difference.If you want to do ta do it on exchange with most volume
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/zcash/#markets

zec is only pumping bc its added to gemini

I imagine that they look similar across most exchanges. The people moving big enough money to manipulate are on all of them simultaneously. The only way it works.

I don’t have time to be on all of them but they only deviate so much from one another to collectively determine market price at a given point in time.

The consensus seems to be anticipation of Gemini. ZEC has been hammered over the past couple of months after being relatively consistent with the change in percent value from one day to the next relative to the other major coins.

I still have some hashing power on ZEC. Once this z9 comes in I will have more. I will run it until I cannot anymore. Hopefully it does fork though. Has been a great GPU coin.

Please keep in mind that all of the following are ASICs(with different capabilities): Intel, AMD and ARM CPUs, Nvidia and AMD GPUs, FPGAs, DSPs... anything actually.
And there's nothing special about GPU - it just allows for some (massive comparing to CPU) parallel calculations(SIMD/MIMD) has some fast RAM nearby and is more flexible than dedicated mining ASICs. However ASIC can be built as flexible as you desire providing there's a justified need.

The current modus operandi of ASIC makers is not "highly efficient and sustainable", which is generally understandable as it's hard to operate planing long term while the silicon process keep shrinking, and blockchain is exploding at the same time.
Hopefully they will do better now when more competition arrives... First we'll need to see if it will actually make the mining hw generally more available.
Interesting thing though: it probably will only seemingly reduce "exclusiveness" of mining and improve decentralization ... as it will reduce mining profits and thus force only the most optimized operations to be profitable...