Bitcoin Forum

Note the important correction.


My father is a former West Coast division head attorney for Exxon. I appear to have inherited some of his high IQ ability to interpret the law.

I can't find anything in this document that specifically bans the bolded assumption.

This document is merely stating that Bitcoin will not be allowed to circulate widely as a currency to compete with RMB, because all volatility risk will remain outside the financial sector in the private parties and exchanges. It is very free market way of saying Bitcoin will not be backed by the government's system. There is nothing stopping businesses from accepting it, and converting it to RMB via a registered exchange.

The government will not likely clamp down on small scale acceptance, as it presents no credible threat to RMB. As we all see now, businesses are forced to convert to fiat immediately if they have significant expenses in fiat, i.e. Bitcoin presents no threat to fiat at the moment because of its volatility and the need for businesses to have fiat to pay their employees and operating expenses, etc..

Note small scale in China is big scale relative to current Bitcoin market size given the large population. Bitcoin is only in the tens of $billion range of market cap. Fiat finance is in the hundreds of $trillions. Bitcoin can grow immensely while still being small scale relative to fiat finance market size.

Whereas, (small) businesses could keep their profits in BTC, as easydns did (PenAndPaper username). Of course big businesses can't because the Bitcoin market cap is too small any way, besides big businesses are not into such risk.

The document is saying that non-financial entities must accept risk of holding BTC.

So this does not to stop the trajectory of Bitcoin in China. Exchanges can still operate and are not prevented from having a bank account to operate with. The document only bans financial institutions (and payment providers) from being market makers, underwriting, insurance, etc. In other words, all the risk and market making must be done by individuals and exchanges.

What they have done is simply kept Bitcoin in the free market-- the wild west.

This is an extremely bullish outcome. They have clarified that Bitcoin is legal for its small scale free market functions.

The Baidu thing is very suspicious. They accepted for a very small portion of their business which was misunderstood and caused a euphoria, then they dump when people misunderstand the ruling above, in order to create panic. Looks like some manipulators are getting rich on BTC pump & dump & rebuy on the dump.

So apparently 80% realize and up to 20% are willing to panic.

So this is how the concentration of ownership in Bitcoin possibly increases, as the weak hands pass it to the strong hands.

The Chinese should just say fuck you government we'll do what we want.
It's not like they can't trade in person or with an online escrow service.

No they didn't , you just imagining things because you hold BTC and its dropping so fast get back to reality they said its not a currency no way and currently banned for financial institutions , it shows you China may ban it at any given time without any given notice , virtual commodity ? what the hell that mean ...

Your retort is irrational, as I am sure all the No votes are. I have studied the ruling and analyzed what it legally says. Your paranoia does not agree with the reality of what the ruling says.

Pass your Bitcoins to strong hands who have sound logic and know how to read what the ruling actually says. And who understand that China is slowly liberalizing, while the west is slowing turning into a spy agency and capital controls prison. Note I have been a China critic over at http://mpettis.com, just find the posts with the avatar of Homer Simpson's small brain x-ray.

P.S. Actually I was holding no BTC (and never owned any) until today when someone sent me several to distribute to typhoon victims.

Mate no need to try hard its banned there period , no business will be willing to accept it as long as this is the Chinese gov tune , its banned mate , its not important if people can exchange it , who cares i can exchange socks with you does that give it value , whats the value if it cant be used as a currency ? it was $13 at the beginning of the year and nothing have changed we're going back there but it takes time , its definitely not worth the hype , just another WOW Gold or a store credit ...

Mate no need to try hard its banned there period , no business will be willing to accept it as long as this is the Chinese gov tune , its banned mate , its not important if people can exchange it , who cares i can exchange socks with you does that give it value , whats the value if it cant be used as a currency ? it was $13 at the beginning of the year and nothing have changed we're going back there but it takes time , its definitely not worth the hype , just another WOW Gold or a store credit ...

Relax, this is the cool thing about Bitcoin - no one can ban it as long as he/she cannot ban the internet :)

If the IRS and criminal law enforcement (via the NSA) knows that you sent a spend transaction on a coin because they correlated your IP address using one of the many reasons I stated above that a user can fail to hide their IP address even with Tor and/or a VPN, they can come to you and say, "please provide records of whom you purchased from and who you sold to, so we can verify which transactions on this coin are yours. If you failed to keep proper records as required by law, we can only assume you may have been sending transactions to yourself ever since this coin was mined until the present time, so you've owned this coin since its creation until now".

Thus now you are responsible for all gains and all criminal activity on the coin, until you can prove you did not send transactions to yourself by showing whom you bought from and sold to.

You don't seem to understand that "I don't know" is not a valid defense. That defense means you own all history until the present on the coin.

They won't "knock the crap out him". They will send him a tax bill for the entire coin's history and put him in jail for any criminal activity on the coin. You can bet it won't take many examples like this for people to demand complete identification of the seller before buying and of the buyer before selling a Bitcoin.

I am continually amazed that people haven't realized this. The Bitcoin developers know this. Go to the CoinJoin thread which was started by Bitcoin developer gmaxell.

The Chinese government sees bitcoin (and gold) as means to undercut the US world reserve currency. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" as it were.

Rest assured, if the CNY was on top, they'd go for bitcoins throat in a heartbeat.

What is China then supposed to do with all their dollars?

Did China just legalize Bitcoin, clarify regulation, for its free market use?

Well there are a lot of cameras and police in China, but yeah the government probably realizes it better to regulate the exchanges (require identification) than force people to go to the underground economy.

There is a huge Shadow banking underground finance economy in China. China knows that in order to take its place as the new center of the financial world by 2033, it must liberalize its financial industry.

This ruling appears to be right in line with China achieving its goal.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/15/chinas-reform-push-for-2020/

http://i1.wp.com/armstrongeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/worldeconomy.jpg?resize=584%2C413 (click link above to see this image if it doesn't appear)

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/15/china-a-new-era/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/23/china-the-dollar/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/armstrongeconomics-the-assent-of-china-the-new-face-of-china-1-25-2011.pdf

No country will give up its absolute power over the issuance of money. That would mean politicians, banksters, and taipans would have to give up their power. Never will be (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984), not unless we decapitate them with technology. And Bitcoin can't be it, it doesn't have anonymity.

china not only legalized bitcoins 100% they put it outside their tight currency controls!!! which is actually a REALLY REALLY good thing for today. there are many people who don't understand china and many people who can't quite grasp how good this news is for now! china treating it as a commodity for the time being is really great! now it will go on to surpass gold in terms of value. see you at the moon

Bitcoin cant become currency for your stated reason. The majority of bitcoiners believe it will.

I agree with the bolded statement (in part). However no cryptocurrency will ever be anonymous and thus become currency. If somebody has a hugely successful business and no transactions are shown in yuan (at his local bank account) (or any other government currency) it will be obvious that he is using cryptocurrencies instead of yuan.

EDIT: I believe bitcoins price will collapse as I dont see Bitcoin being used as a store of value (or as a currency as explained above).

Now for transfers it is not cheap if you take into account the spread! So where exactly is the value??? I dont see it.

Creating and selling digital works, such as computer code or object designs downloaded and output on a 3D printer, could in theory be entirely anonymous.

I have to disagree. Its not great as treating it as a commodity (with capital gains taxes for example) will mean that it wont become a dominant medium of exchange.
Now for transfers it is not cheap if you take into account the spread! So where exactly is the value??? I dont see it.

It may not be dominant but it will still be a medium. I think BTC won't replace fiat completely but it will continue to exist.

Let's say you are a freelancer, a constructor, writer, artist - btc will allow you to get paid for your services without registering a business. Your private details won't be sold by a bank to some advert agency, they won't monitor your income, won't track your investments like they already do. Currently the government knows where you work, buy your food, how much you earn, your credit rates. With btc you are the captain of your own ship. I know people who took credit in foreign currency and it suddenly went up, so now they are completely screwed as the interest rates take 60% of their income. There are still people in this world who want to be independent. I would love to be able to just trade with people, like in the old days - you had a silver or gold coin and you could exchange it for some goods or services without big brother watching from above.

Any larger business is well known by local government. Having customers is a public act (now it depends on the number obviously, but any medium sized business is well know in the area). They will knock on your door and say: We know you have sold product and services. Your local bank account doesnt show transactions in our government currencies. Care to explain? What? You are using cryptocurrencies. Well we will put you in prison for life or execute you. See how easy it is? Again transactions are the tax base (thats why bank accounts are not anonymous, they want to calculate your profit!).

Now nobody will be safe from these controls. What you have a car? How did you earn money for that car? Cant show it in your transactions with your bank in local currencies? Death penality! See how that works? They go after the small guy as well, so nobody is safe. And you assumed bitcoin is 100% anonymous which it is not (remember all the personal details you gave the exchange).

So I dont see anybody using bitcoin as a medium of exchange in a significant way because they would have to pay taxes on every transaction. Then anonymity is lost. If you dont pay taxes you end up in jail.

No cryptocurrencies cant be anonymous (not bitcoin not altcoins). Businesses are always public. If you have lots of customers you have to show lots of profit.

They will execute you if this is the case.

Firstly, you can sell in the internet just like they do with miners or anything else these days. Secondly do you really think they will put half of the population in prison or as you say execute? In the EU they wanted to enforce ACTA last year and people didn't allow it. People have the power to change what they don't like.

Secondly do you really think they will put half of the population in prison or as you say execute? In the EU they wanted to enforce ACTA last year and people didn't allow it. People have the power to change what they don't like.

You assume the future is one of very popular monoliths.

I've been building a different future. One where we will build zillion different tweaks to each app, each a different programmer and vendor.

Also the only reason a popular software item couldn't be sold anonymously, is the receiving address is conspicuous. Then everyone could be watching for spends on that address and trying to correlate who owns that address.

Yet if the spender remains anonymous, the conspicuous address doesn't reveal identity.


They can't execute if they don't know the identity.

So bitcoin or cryptocurrencies only have value if your particular vision of the future materializes? Laughing out loudly!

Again even if we have very small businesses (which goes against the best company gaining ground and increasing in size in a competitive market, see google, facebook) you still have the problem.

For exampe: You have a nice house and a car. Thats in the real world now Antony! Not in your software cryptocurrency world. Where did you get that house? How did you finance that car? Cant show how you did via your bank account in government currency? Off to jail with your sorry ass! Get how that works? Every single individual who lives inside the territory of that government can be controlled in this manner! In does not matter if in future businesses will be smaller (which is a real stretch anyways).

I bought the house and car with the portion of my income I reveal and paid tax on.

You haven't made a point yet. Keep trying.

Fail. If I cant use the portion of my income to buy stuff I want it effectively is worth nothing.

Again if you have customers Anony and you cant show where all your profit went you will go off to prison. Your business does not have to be a monoliths society!!! Small and medium sized businesses are also under attack.

Wow you are really stubborn.

I already told you that I can declare the portion of my income that I want to justify my tangible assets.

And the rest of my earnings I can spend anonymously on other virtual goods to increase my empire of knowledge.

I am not stubborn. I just think you are wrong. Actually answer my points.

You basically said: Ohh the wealth I dont disclose is not useless as I can buy virtual goods! Again thats not very convincing as most people like to buy goods in the real world: Food (largest percentage of income for poorer families), property, transport, education, hardware (laptops), vacation.

Also: A business with customers has to explain where its money went that it received. Get that in your head. Your argument: Ohh you assume that we will be a monolith society. Firstly, yes I continue to believe that businesses will compete and the most successful will be the largest. You fail to make a point why this wont be the case. Even if we have lots of medium sized business they will have to explain where the money went that customers obviously are spending.

Try again.

Sry but extremly brief reply and you did not address my points. Bitcoin cant be a media of exchange as you have to pay taxes on every transaction. If you dont pay taxes you go to jail. I dont know how it is in your country, but thats how it works normally. Now you can say that people will risk going to jail, but I dont see that coming any time soon.

I provided a link in the prior post for you to educate yourself.

There are governments that interfere more and less. I happen to live where they steal more than 50% of your income if you add income tax, vat and property tax.
You seem to be a person who lives obeying the rules enforced by the "authorities" and don't want any changes. They tell you to pay taxes - you pay, then the taxes grow and you still pay, then they make you borrow in the banks so you can be their debt slave but you won't protest because that's how the system works, right?
Do you really think a system that enforces taxes anywhere it can is just? I am not against all taxes, people should give something to the community, but income tax is among the most unjust, it punishes people for being smart and creative so the ones that have bigger gains have to contribute more - this is ridiculous. Governments write in their constitutions that all men are equal, and yet they are not equally taxed, where's the logic in that. But this is going off topic.

I gave porc a link to read (see "empire of knowledge" upthread), so he can get the answers to his questions. Yet he refuses to read it. So there is nothing more to say.

Sad to see his ignorance is causing him to give up and bend over to (expose his anal hole to) the collective (ass fscking) hell coming.

Where is the fight in stoic men these days?

No I dont believe that taxes are just. But the reality is that most people do and pay obidiently. Thats why government has power in the first place. Again cryptocurrencies wont bring down government.

In the linked thread I provided to you, the point is made by CoinCube, that my thesis can not be summarized. You will actually have to read.

Those brief replies ;)

But they can allow you to get some goods and services anonymously. Let's say you write a program or create a website for someone and get paid in BTC, he has a broken pipe and pays a plumber to fix it with these btc, the plumber buys a used phone from his friend again with btc. Wouldn't that work? I'm not talking about big businesses employing thousands of people. I'm talking about John selling Judy his silver coin collection. Why the hell not use BTC for that?

You fail. I have made two very simple arguments and you cant disprove them in one post despite your numerous attempts. Linking an article and expecting me to read it is ridiculous, as anybody must be able to refute these points in one post if they can be refuted.

Now you must already realize that for 1) large businesses 2) medium sized businesses 3) small businesses bitcoin is out of the question.

Sorry I told you already the linked thread can't be summarized.

Please don't make repeat the same thing over and over again.

You dont have to summarize the linked thread.

You have to address my arguments in one simple post

In the linked thread I provided to you, the point is made by CoinCube, that my thesis can not be summarized. You will actually have to read.

Sorry sometimes knowledge can fit into a "sound bite".

This isn't a political contest. You either want to learn or you don't. I can't make that decision for you.

Sry but your thread is about the fact that in future its about software and knowledge and not capital.

Fact is:

1) We need food...

I dont really care.

Read the linked thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0) again. You missed the point.

Food will become such a incredibly small percentage of knowledge workers' expenses, like a grain of sand.


Put some Vaseline in your anus so it won't be too painful.

Now you must already realize that for 1) large businesses 2) medium sized businesses 3) small businesses bitcoin is out of the question.

For the transactions you speak of we have two problems.

1) You have to show how you make a living (plumber). If you have stuff that cant be afforded with the income you show, governments will pursue you and put you in jail.

2) If you decide to buy virtual goods then these goods cant come from any small, medium sized or large business. Most virtual services are free anyways.

3) If wealth can only be spend on virtual goods than that wealth is useless if its significant (again if you have 2 million and can only spend it on virtual goods from tiny companies then these 2 million are useless). Rather pay taxes and be able to buy real stuff.

4) Most people wont risk going to jail if they only safe small amounts.

Summarize the point you fool.

4) They won't put anyone in jail if BTC becomes big. If you can't fight them join them ;)

1) You think there are people driving around the town, entering people's houses and checking what stuff they got inside to tax them? Never heard bout that...
2) Escrow isn't free, data recovery as well, and try to get a good website or house project made for free.
3) 7 billion people doing 1% of their trades in BTC seems significant enough for me
4) They won't put anyone in jail if BTC becomes big. If you can't fight them join them ;)
And as for the power of the internet - the piratebay guys are enjoying their freedom. Somehow your jail and execution talk doesn't scare me.

2) Excrow... ever heard of cash. Thinking that cash is less anonymous than bitcoin is totally off base.

Amazing the point is right there above.  ::)

I guess you haven't considered direct connection to the brain then all your physical assets seem real but they are not. Even sex.

Or disposable assets that our 3D printers can print at will.

But still that isn't the point. You would need to actually not be stubborn and take time to read and digest.

1) Yes. If you report low taxes but live a good lifestyle the tax man is coming after you.
2) Excrow... ever heard of cash. Thinking that cash is less anonymous than bitcoin is totally off base.
3) why 1%? You give no reason.. if most businesses dont accept it nobody will want your bitcoins
4) It wont become big as large, medium and small businesses wont accept it.

You were doing good but that part of your argument isn't logical.

Sry but I feel like talking to a wall here.

1) Your all knowing tax man knows how much I spent on my household appliances and that I'm having fun with whores every night. He must be a god :O
2) Not excrow but escrow. Try paying someone living in another town with cash - you are planning to mail it to him, right?
3) I said 1% to pick the smallest number so you won't go "why 50%? nobody pays 50% for virtual goods and services". It can be even more but 1 could be enough.
4) They will, it's just a matter of time. There are many possiblilities one of which is BTC functioning along fiat, so you could freely exchange it and pay your taxes with fiat.

1) Firstly bitcoins are not anonymous (if you want to buy them via an exchange the exchange demands personal information which it will hand out to governments.) Secondly you keep assuming that maybe when bitcoin ever becomes anonymous (how?) it might be used for a fringe purporse instead of cash. Why? Why not use cash to buy household appliances and whores. Again its much more cumbersome to use bitcoin. Also you dont explain how the business selling you household appliances will evade taxes via bitcoin.

Most people will not want to evade taxes.

2) Again if this guy is operating a small/ medium/ larger business he will need to pay taxes. Having customers is a public act; if you buy stuff with profits that are physical this is true also for the software entrepreneur. How do you know what business he is operating and if he is going to report tax?

3) Again why would anybody use bitcoin for fringe small time transaction and not cash? Yes if you buy something from him and he lives in another city. But how will you know about him? Via websites offering products? Public and therefore not anonymous for the person selling these products via the web.

Serious and competent businesses dont evade taxes. Nobody wants to risk jail time.

4) No that would assume governments loosing the money monopoly. You have not addressed my points concerning small, medium and large businesses and tax controls.

Oh crap another thread wasted by somebody trying to argue with AnnoyMint.
ps.
You,  Panda! , out of the way:)

Your retort is irrational, as I am sure all the No votes are. I have studied the ruling and analyzed what it legally says. Your paranoia does not agree with the reality of what the ruling says.

Pass your Bitcoins to strong hands who have sound logic and know how to read what the ruling actually says. And who understand that China is slowly liberalizing, while the west is slowing turning into a spy agency and capital controls prison. Note I have been a China critic over at http://mpettis.com, just find the posts with the avatar of Homer Simpson's small brain x-ray.

P.S. Actually I was holding no BTC (and never owned any) until today when someone sent me several to distribute to typhoon victims.

1) So you think the government will create special divisions for checking the profits people made on btc based on their exchange balance? I find that improbable. And what if someone kept btc in his wallet for years and never converted to fiat? How would you trace him? Don't forget that Ulbricht managed to prosper until he made a mistake of placing his site code on some software forum. Most of the dealers who sold on his site weren't captured. And we are talking about drug dealing and big profits. The system can't even deal with that, how will it deal with Joe sending his son money without reporting it to the higher power?

Everyone I know would prefer to avoid income tax as it is unjust. I also know a lot of people who do not report their side jobs. Look what happened in France when they increased the taxes.

2) Why would I care?

3) You really never used craigslist type sites? So you think someone will knock on your door and ask you if you've been doing gardening plumbing or whatever for John Doe because they saw him leaving you a message on some advert site? Give me a break :D What about TOR network?

4)They will lose it anyway, you can't print money forever.

Converting bitcoins to dollars increases transaction costs enormously.

Again I am making all of these points to show you that bitcoin will never be mainstream. Not even 1% of the economy. Tiny! Get it?

Want to take over, big brother? Lead the way!

If the bold part is your point I can only laugh.

Please "analyze what it legally says", aside from the translations you provided, which state that it should not be treated like a currency, and can not be used as a currency, but rather as a speculation vehicle at their own risk.

Does china also say that their Yuan should not be treated like a currency, that purchases cannot be made with it like currency, and it is a speculation vehicle to be used at their own risk?

noun
1.
coins or banknotes that must be accepted if offered in payment of a debt.

Dude, Anonymint's Dad is a lawyer.  Get it? :-D

You were the only one without the ignore in two pages :), ruining the scenery.

Both answers are wrong because china haven't talked about bitcoin but about bitcoin as a currency and bitcoin as a commodity.

Doing my best ;)

Puting people who use btc in jail is not only illogical but also improbable. Prisons are full already  :)
Governments will have to one day recognize BTC if only enough people vote for it. We have democracy, right?

You make a fool of yourself for everyone to see.


Enjoy the ignor(ing)ant bliss.

china not only legalized bitcoins 100% they put it outside their tight currency controls!!! which is actually a REALLY REALLY good thing for today. there are many people who don't understand china and many people who can't quite grasp how good this news is for now! china treating it as a commodity for the time being is really great! now it will go on to surpass gold in terms of value. see you at the moon

Hope you don't mind if I quote you anonymously.

Also don't forget the raw milk fiasco in California in terms of the state micro-managing lives down to the private barter of healthy milk!

I don't see the article I read, the articles below mention a
variety of targets: painters, landscapers, etc.
http://boingboing.net/2013/09/19/sting-operations-on-people-ans.html
http://beforeitsnews.com/libertarian/2013/09/cslb-sting-operations-continue-to-defy-common-sense-2523954.html

Care to explain your logic?

The document implied Bitcoin is legal as a commodity for use in the free market, and indicated the regulation thereof. Thus agreeing with the title and poll question of this thread. I see no logic in your sentence.

China said bitcoin is illegal to use as a currency in the market to buy products or services thats why baidu removed it immediately after the notice.

So bitcoin is not legal or illegal in china. Its a commodity and and not a currency in China so your poll is wrong anyway.

Bobby Lee said nothing about the conversion of BTC to RMB then handing the RMB to merchant. And he said the demographics are 90% college educated and long-term investment, not for currency, so the following is irrelevant short and medium-term. He said we are developing the ecosystem with customers who are engineers.

The regulation did state that payment companies couldn't work with Bitcoin. The second speaker in your linked video said he expects such regulation to loosen as China loosens their overall RMB currency controls.


In theory merchants can accept RMB and the Bitcoin can be converted at the time of purchase same as for Bitpay. However, we must consider whether such a Bitpay for China would be an exchange or payment service. If you convert your BTC to RMB, then send the RMB as a payment, it seems like two separate functions and could be handled by two different companies interopting in real-time.

So you have an account at BTC China and an account at a payment provider. You link them and set them to interopt in real-time. Problem solved. Regulation adhered to. It is possible that your payment provider won't let you fund directly from an exchange, so your exchange pays the payment provider via a financial instruction, but there is no the reason the two of them can't do the accounting in real-time. Let's say instead the regulation require the customer to withdraw the money to a financial institution in the customer's name, then fund the payment provider. There is still no reason the accounting couldn't be done in real-time, assuming the customer has a balance in his/her account at the financial institution or the payment provider, the transaction could be paid out of that and then exchanged BTC could replish that balance. Or the payment provider can delay payment to the merchant and/or offer chargebacks.

Orthogonally, I am not clear whether barter trade is illegal in China. The statements at the links provided in this thread seem to think barter trade is illegal in China, but they have cited no laws of evidence that is so. Rather it seems there are massive underground economies in China, such as the Shadow banking.

Note that China did ban the use of virtual gaming currencies such as Q Coins for bartering for real goods. But they did not ban people from selling their virtual coins and obtaining RMB (http://horacexiong.com/?p=777). China wants to make sure it knows about and can control all movement of currency. Thus China should not have a problem with converting virtual currencies to RMB and then sending the RMB as payment.

China actually legalized Bitcoin trading as a commodity (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=360763.0).

The shorts are trying to talk down the price (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322058.msg3964988#msg3964988), so they buy in cheaper, but they don't appear to have the chart on their side (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322058.msg3932761#msg3932761).

Two years ago I
> read a NY Times article about extreme surveillance tactics by tax
> officials in Italy, they actually check receipts on all purchases and
> match them up to reported income.   This is the type of extreme monitoring
> of ALL CONSUMPTION PATTERNS required in Technocracy.

China said bitcoin is legal to trade as a commodity in online exchanges.
China said bitcoin is illegal to use as a currency in the market to buy products or services thats why baidu removed it immediately after the notice.
So bitcoin is not legal or illegal in china. Its a commodity and and not a currency in China so your poll is wrong anyway.

All of the analysis thus far and including my prior post, is myopic and ignores the ecosystem networking effects.

The Chinese will own 10s or 100s of $billions perhaps even $trillions of value stored in BTC. Do you really think the market is not going to respond and try to market something to that huge capital base?

For example, the Chinese could go on vacation abroad and spend their BTC.

Or they could buy and sell abroad over the internet, e.g. such as for their homes abroad or running business virtually abroad. Especially they become wealthy investing in BTC.

Also the anonymous altcoin comes along, they leverage their BTC into that.

China is desperate to grow the consumer share of their economy because as http://pettis.com has pointed out, their economy will collapse if they don't. Do you really think they will allow all that consumer business to go abroad? No. The wall is coming down. China is transforming.

Etc.....

China can't put the free market use of Bitcoin back in the bag.

Help me understand this China situation.

The Chinese government ruled that Bitcoin can not act as a currency?

Bitcoin cannot be used to purchase goods and services?

The exchanges can still operate but they cannot exchange for fiat because that is now illegal?

Haven't they just turned Bitcoin into Yu-Gi-Oh trading cards?

Correct. But they have also ruled that Chinese can sell BTC for RMB. And RMB can be used to pay as a currency.
 

Where? BTC can be spent by Chinese internationally without needing to be there. See my prior post immediately before yours.

Inside China, Chinese can sell BTC for RMB and hand over the RMB. I postulate this can even be done in real-time with the click of a button.


Incorrect. The exchanges can have bank accounts, the banks just can't directly deal in BTC.

The banks never see any BTC, they only see RMB. The exchanges see RMB and BTC.


Not even remotely close to that conclusion. Entirely opposite. Bitcoin is blasting off in China.

Well, if that's all true then I don't understand what everyone is worried about.

This article says Bitcoin can be used by businesses  ???

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Bitcoin-in-China-30222160.html

Indeed, the notice has not prevented companies like yesbtc, founded by an ex-VP from Tencent ($111bn market cap), from operating a platform that allows users to post merchandise for sale to denominate and guarantee those transactions.

After the release of the notice, yesbtc’s CEO Xin Tang was quoted saying that all bartering services are legal. In addition, numerous independent merchants are adding or or continuing to accept bitcoin as a form of payment.

At the time of writing, there are 320 products listed on Taobao (China’s largest e-commerce platform with transaction volume exceeding $140bn USD annually) that can be purchased with bitcoin.

Typing in ‘bitcoin payment’ will trigger common search terms as suggested by the Taobao search engine of ‘bitcoin payment sale’, ‘supports bitcoin payment’ or ‘Can [use] bitcoin to pay’. A search for ‘goods’ yields results ranging from wine to cell phone accessories, cosmetics, luxury bags and sex toys:

Bingo!

Good to see you all are starting to understand finally.


Yes and they will collect capital gains and/or VAT taxes on Bitcoin appreciation as an investment even if you are trying to use it as a currency (medium-of-exchange), thus it can not be a currency (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=351712.msg3979502#msg3979502).

But developers of altcoins will rise to the opportunity and create truly anonymous coins. Anoncoin isn't it. Bitcoin isn't it. I will soon publish a whitepaper to explain why.

In short, you need to understand that Chaum mix-nets (e.g. Tor) are vulnerable to timing attacks, and even honeypotting given only 3 hops. They NSA and spy agencies in each country are likely still able to track your identity much of the time. And VPNs are likely all controlled/backdoored/hacked/rooted by the NSA. And exchanging through mixers and altcoins does not obscure your IP address no matter how many times you do it. Also even across these proxies, your identity is tracked in other ways such as browser plugins trojans, cookies, patterns of internet uses such as favored search terms, facbook et al tracking the way you type (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=363852.msg3889591#msg3889591), etc..

Even if you are one of the lucky few who manages to keep your anonymity assured by careful mix of the above methods, the point is the majority will not. And thus it is very simple for the government to make your anonymous coins practically unspendable and useless (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=360763.msg3872909#msg3872909). The government simply sends a tax bill and put criminal liability for all activity on a coin since mining until present, until those non-anonymous coins holders (or former holders) can provide the identity of whom they bought from and sold to.

Thus all users will become afraid and only accept coins and sell coins from those who provide their complete identity. Thus only a coin with widespread assured anonymity would be able to become a currency and remain immune to government control.

So clearly you can see that you never will have anonymity with Bitcoin nor any current altcoins. Thus Bitcoin and the current altcoins can never be currencies (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=351712.msg3979502#msg3979502) (unless the governments take them over somehow and make them legal tender), and the government will essentially control them.

Note one means anonymity I proposed thus far are a new way to do physical crypto-coins (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310859.msg3972962#msg3972962).

When are you all going to get a fscking clue!

The powers-that-be in all countries are pulling us towards a Technocracy where they will tax and track everything.

The lack of assured anonymity in current crypto-currencies is how they are able to accomplish this 666 tracking result.

Bitcoin is part of the plan to bring us to this tracking result. It is not our savior rather it was planted to suck us in.

It is up to us if we want to grab the moment, and make an anonymous crypto-currency that will defeat the global plan.

There is a very remote, alternative wildcard possibility. That a completely anonymous form of currency similar to but significantly improved from Bitcoin runs roughshod over China's capital controls and deposes the existing political system into chaos.

If these words end up prophetic it won't be coincidence but rather from sitting in the driver's seat and changing the world from thy keyboard.

     The real question now is why this move is in China's best interest.

P.S. I suspect the "No"  vote is composed of those who don't like what I have to say in other threads. Because I point out how stupid they are. This is an emotional vote, and they are entirely ignoring the logic of the question. These people deserve to perish.

  I voted no because the wording says both legalize bitcoin and clarify regulation. To legalize in extreme would be complete deregulation of all parties right to engage in business with bitcoin, just like legalizing cannabis for medical purposes means legalizing it, but also reaffirming that it is illegal for non-medical users. So since the question is so general, no is really the safer answer, although with a little more specificity yes is.

    Just saying, while insulting all of the no voters may make you feel good, it is probably unnecessary and unhelpful. However, thankfully this thread does contain some useful information if you can overlook the ridiculous ego battles.

Hey "No" voters, China still hasn't made it illegal to trade Bitcoin as a commodity. They haven't ruled that exchanges can't have bank accounts and thus users can still continue to send RMB in and out of exchanges.

Third party payment providers are not banks and they are not allowed to interact with exchanges, because the Central Bank can't track identities as efficiently through them as they can through the state-owned banks.

So how can you vote "No" given to "Did China just legalize Bitcoin, clarify regulation, for its free market use?" when I made it clear that "for its free market use" should be taken to mean as commodity and not as a legal tender.

Also I have documented that everything that is not legal tender is never currency in any country on earth, because capital gains and/or VAT taxes are due on changes in the value of non-legal tender when using them as a medium-of-exchange.

So what is in your tiny brains "No" voters? Are you just too lazy or stoopid or lacking the ability to do logic?

P.S. I suspect the "No"  vote is composed of those who don't like what I have to say in other threads. Because I point out how stupid they are. This is an emotional vote, and they are entirely ignoring the logic of the question. These people deserve to perish.

Why is China ground zero for mining when the ROI is not greater than holding BTC itself?

Because it is the way to get BTC without giving your identity and to side-step capital controls. You can sell these coins privately at a premium to those who need to circumvent capital controls. An underground economy develops. Yet who has access to those with ASICs farms which suck immense electricity? The elite! So they get to skirt the new law while the masses get sucked into AML and KYC.

Now imagine a CPU-only altcoin comes along with very strong anonymity. Checkmate to China's elite. Very good for China's masses.

It is coming soon.