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Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

It doesn't "STEAL" money from you, just imbalances it in the long run.

You still get your equal share of the shares/50 block reward, the issue is say you have a new pool at only a Gh/s, you could get billions of shares and never get a block, then you finally get a block, and the 10 people who were mining on that pool get 50 to split! you all get basically a % of the reward as your shares over total shares. BUT, that 50 could take months, so your percent might be the same as with a big pool but look how many hours it took to get there?

Now forward to a big pool (deepbit for example) which has so much hash power that they get say half of the 10min block solves since people keep saying they're about half the total strength. Theres more total shares, but you still have equal percent and they happen way more frequently so you're getting a very tight coin over time earnings.

If you look at a pool hopper 'cluster' that drops in on that little small pool in the first example, your little 1Gh/s makes a few shares chugging along, and the 10Gh/s that just dropped in makes 10x the shares you do. They leave at say 90% of the time it will take to get a block (in hindsight, they wouldn't really know how long it'd take). They own like 90% of 90% of the block. But wait, now your poor little networks back where it started, you'll take months and months to get a block, by then your little 10% might make it back up to 30% of the total shares. BAM, you solve block, oh look, you spent the same months and months to get there as that first month, but now you only get 20coins instead of 50, that one person gets 30 'for free' for a few hours of heavy mining on your pool while he's off doing the same on other pools. Now instead of a low time to coin ratio you had taking forever with your slow network, now it's even WORSE of earnings.

Also I see this is why people flock to a big pool like Slush/Deepbit, because the speed they solve blocks squeezes every drop out of your shares. But basically, yes hopping in one way or another depending on your twisted view of the definition 'steals' money from you.

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

I mine at a proportional pool which is not being hopped "for a reason", "because they are fucking with us" (according to the pyhopper readme) so I don't care in the slightest  ;D

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

Okay, so then say EVERYONE decides to cutting their risk of losses and now 100% of miners pool-hop. Every pool will stay at a crawl until the whole swarm runs to it, then we solve a block from the collective spike of over 50%, now we have two issues, A: we're back where we started with everyone getting equal proportion and would be just as fine if nobody was dicks and poolhopped, and B: you have the 50% issue of giving control to a split of more pools in round-robin fashion, leaving more room for one of the many pool owners to 'hack' the blockchain.

The need to poolhop is being spurred on BY the poolhopping.


(oh look I can bold too, my statements must mean more!)

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

It's simple, really.

If pool-hopping results in more income, and you're not providing more shares (more assistance in finding a block...you know, more WORK) you're getting something for NOTHING.
That "something" has to be taken from somebody else -- but the only "somebody else's" are the other miners on that pool, who are all contributing shares (work).
So those who make extra money by pool hopping are getting money that WOULD HAVE GONE TO OTHER MINERS. Hence the low-tech term, "stealing".

And no, hoppers aren't putting in their "valuable time" to "optimize" their operation. Not all work is productive.

If I spend an hour optimizing Poclbm, or cooling my rigs/increasing my overclock rates, THAT is productive. I get more hashrate, and more shares -- more WORK is done. My machines can do more WORK because they're more efficient.

The argument of the pool-hoppers is like saying I can compare 2 hours of actual work for a client with 1 hour of goofing off and 1 hour of carefully falsifying records, etc. so I get paid for 2 hours.
No, even though the results are comparable, there is no comparison!
I'm sure the boss would rather pay me 2 hour for 2 hours' work, than 2 hours for 1 hours' work and 1 hours' work falsifying documents.

The pool hoppers would say, "It doesn't matter. You did 2 hours worth of work either way, and you got your 2 hours pay". In fact, they'd say it would be even better to spend 1 hour working, 1 hour falsifying records, and get paid for THREE hours. When confronted with the immoral nature of that transaction, they'd claim to be "optimizing" their work day.

I'm sure bank robbers put in some "work" to pull off their heists as well -- but sorry, that work can't ever be claimed.

When you do useless "work" -- whether it be "casing the joint", noting when your neighbors are home, taking pictures of the bank's security systems -- or fine-tuning your pool hopping operation -- no one owes you any recompense for such work. Your spending time in that manner is your own problem. You might as well have watched TV for all the time spent doing such activities.

Vladimir, how do you feel about people who have stopped mining now BTC is in the $6-7 range, who WILL return when it is in the $9-10 range?

How about people that hop onto these alternative currencies when the diff is low and profit is high and then come back to btc when it is no longer the case?

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/

i lol'd

sooner or later, the hoppers will somehow adapt to new hopping-prevention techniques.

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

fiduciary duty? lol by doing what forcing people to mine when it isnt profitable?.... oh i know switch off prop, despite a majority of their users want prop.. right?


remind me not to ask you for legal advice. There is no way any pool op will see any legal issue off of this, now you are just being histrionic as that is completely ridiculous. And very few pools charge a fee. There is no way you actually believe that crap, or you need to look up the law a bit more carefully. And their is zero deception, people get paid their shares just as the forumla says, no where does any pool guarantee a total hash rate. Does your pool guarantee a total hash rate?


people like you would ban selling off a stock when the share value starts to drop next to nil and then buying back stocks when they think the share value will  rise again.

It's math my friend, you can get pissed at the pool op for having prop despite their users actually want it, but when 50(myshares/totalshares) no longer makes sense to me, it no longer makes sense to me. Just like for some people money spent generating bitcoins> BTC to USD exchange rate, no longer makes sense, they stop mining and start buying. Other people, like the namecoiners are perfectly happy chugging away at 4 times diff

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

shouts one of the most well known hoppers on this forum... :D :D  If everyone leaves hopper friendly pools but hoppers you guys are kinda screwed arent you?  You will end up mining like everyone else for a fair and ethical payout you deserve instead of exploiting the system for your own benefit at the expense of others.

While it hasn't happened yet, i guess my avatar is still relevant.

'Share shopping' is still theft from the people that keep mining on long blocks.
Even slush and tycho admitted this months & months ago and created countermeasures.

Without them the hopping method becomes impossible.
So you are directly dependent on people mining there for more than 43% of a block duration 24/7.

If not 'theft', how can you say it's not at the least, taking advantage of the stupid and gullible?
That's definitely not illegal, but it will eventually disillusion many new miners when they realize their earnings are 30-40% less than expected.

Maybe a better word is embezzlement of shared funds (even if through 'legit' means).

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

The main reason a proportional pool is not hopped is that the pool op is not trustworthy - for example having a rule that hopping is ok if you make a donation, and then changing this before informing anyone. Or IP banning some users without notification or even banning their accounts.

In fact, the 'proportional pools not mined for a reason' are often ones that full time miners shouldn't use. If I mined full time, I'd be leery of a pool op who I couldn't trust.

You can argue about what hopping is (theft, fraud, efficiency, fun, etc) but one thing is true in the long run:

If you are mining in pool that is favored by hoppers because of its payout system, and you are not hoping, you are making less money.

So if you are not a hopper, leave the hopped pool or make less money.  

Well, that is right of course, but how you gonna determine that trust? The only way to be certain is if you personally know the operator, otherwise. you can't trust anyone. So if you can't trust anyone you might as well swallow the bait and hope for the best, which is what I am doing.

obviously, no one is going to be convinced of the other side's opinion on hopping. both sides bring up valid points, but i don't see any legal evidence to backup the claims of fraud, deception, or theft. it's just different interpretations of math. as stated by a previous post, it is more an issue of taking advantage of those not aware of certain facts about hopping, which is not illegal. why is it the responsibility of the pool to provide such information about hopping? a pool tells you its payment method which is all you need to know. information about hopping and how it works on different payout methods is freely available. heck, there are even mathematical papers written on it referred to earlier in the thread. where is the intentional deception, the fraud? is it in the pool not telling you that their pool is susceptible to hopping? this information is not hidden by the pool; it simply requires you to do a minimal amount of research. maybe if the pool didn't tell you the payment method you could claim fraud but all the math is open for anyone to see. it is the responsibility of the miner to choose their pool, and if they choose poorly because they failed to inform themselves of certain facts it remains the miner's decision and the miner's responsibility. i mine where i choose to because i can, because there are no restrictions as to how, when or where i mine. i believe that is a great asset of bitcoin.

You could use the "not mined for a reason" section in the bH readme. That's a good indicator of prop pools I where I wouldn't trust the operator.

Why this topic again? Neither side is going to listen to the other.


This is the only statement in this whole thread worth saying.

It says not hooped, and does in fact state it is "a nice pool to mine at" in the readme

But I looked in the readme and didn't see anything about pools there, and I looked at the wiki and while it's changed a bit since I last looked there's nothing about 'nice pool to mine at'. Can you post a link? I'm not doubting you, just want a look at the context.

Nada, people would try to hop it "just because"

Really? You think people would waste hashes on a pool 'just because'? Hmmm. Pool hopping. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

ok I admit I don't... I'm out  :-[  :-X

PPLNS, if implemented correctly, is hopping-proof, you can't gain anything from hopping it.
SMPPS is not hopping-proof but you can only decrease your variance by using it to hop, not increase your expectation. But I agree, I expect that when proportional dies, SMPPS will be the new proportional.
You may try lie-in-wait until oblivious shares are implemented.

To "hopping-prevention techniques", probably. To hopping-proof reward systems, no.

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

But Meni, that wouldn't be ethical.

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Of course. But as I've said elsewhere, I find hopping permissible since it could expedite the destruction of proportional pools, and the same applies here.

Don't leave us hangin'! How could hopping negatively affect full time miners at a PPLNS pool? Or are you leaving that for when section 4. is published?

EDIT: or do you mean if PPLNS is not correctly implemented at that pool?

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

See you at https://bitcoin.org.uk/

OK, let me try again:

+1 to this whole discussion. every miner should at least be aware of the problem.

imho Vladimir and the people on his side are right.

hoppers gets more of the cake while non-hoppers get less ---> stealing. I would not call the hoppers unethical, though but the pools that let it happen.

There's nothing to worry about. It's safe to mine in MMC. But I do not have complete knowledge of MMC's implementation so the people involved in it should discuss the specifics if they so wish.

Hmmm... the link doesnt work for me... maybe you can quote the important parts of the text ?

Out of curiosity... what would be the point of you hopping PPLNS or PPS variant pools (hypothetically speaking) ?

You could reduce your variance by hopping XXPPS (compared to a fulltime miner on XXPPS) making it closer to normal PPS but without a fee. You can look at it as either improving your variance or boosting your hashrate (compared to a fee'd straight PPS).

I will hope to enlighten you by using no fancy math. However, trolls gonna troll with their misinformation anyway.

The reduced earnings of full time miners would not be demonstrated by showing just one round. All shares per round will be paid equally per share to all miners.

It can be demonstrated as an example:

A miner has 2% of the total hash rate of the pool. That means the miner should make 1 BTC for every block solve. The miner mines a long block that took 3x difficulty. He submits 2% of the shares. The winnings are as expected, 2% of 50BTC = 1 BTC. The earnings per share are as expected (1/3 of the value they would have on an average round, since the round went so long).

So the last block took three times as long as average - variance will give us a matching lucky block 1/3 of difficulty for each unlucky block with 3x difficulty. In exact math you can't understand, for every round above the 90% percentile, we get a matching number of rounds below 10%. Our miner should expect 1 BTC from the short round also, and since it is short it makes up for the long round.

Now, lets say the pool size doubles just for the start of a round because an assload of hoppers jump on, when they know that the per-share reward will be high if a block is found early. Now the miner has only 1% of the hashrate of the pool. The block is found in 0.33x difficulty shares. Instead of 1 BTC for the short round, the miner gets 0.5 BTC. The earnings per share are as expected, but the miner was only able to submit half as many shares for the round as his hashrate would normally allow him. He gets shafted basically.

Over these two rounds, instead of 2 BTC he gets 1.5 BTC. The two rounds together were 3.33 the difficulty in shares, but the hoppers only significantly reduce the length of time the short round, so the two rounds together with hoppers at the start of each still take 3.0 the time. The full time miner makes less per time spent mining in the hopped pool.

The full time miner mines during unlucky rounds, and then the lucky rounds that would have made up for that time investment have hoppers stealing his expected earnings.

There is a profit motive for pool operators to turn a blind eye - it took a bit less time to solve the two blocks, so that means if the pool has a percentage fee or even an automatic donation percentage, it took less time for the pool op to earn those fees by encouraging pool hoppers to come over. This is a zero-sum gain across all pools though, because if hoppers couldn't hop anywhere, they would still have to mine somewhere.

Such a powerful rebuttal.

Foreword: I have no beef with you, I've never spoken to you and I've never had any reason to disrespect you. Remember that.

Dude, put down the crack pipe and clearly read what has actually been said.

Nothing has been given to a Japanese (< correct spelling btw) company, the site is simply being hosted by Mark.

Mark so happens to work for a Japanese company, that doesn't mean the company he works for owns the information.

Remember, Mark already had the access he has now before the whole CosbyCoin thing even happened.

I could go on about how much of a douche you're making yourself look like, but I won't because it's not really constructive.

Which is part of the problem, AFAIK it was never mentioned that Mark has access to any forum data.

By the way, do we know what kind of access he actually has? Can he host the site without having read access to people's PMs?

1.) You only had to ask the people involved, bro - they're human too you know :)

2.) If he supplies hosting for the site, think about it.

PS: what does it matter anyway? If you see some sort of problem with the way things are now, why don't you have a calm and constructive discussion with the owners of the site and try to organise something different?

Focus on the future, make a change and become the positive next step in the sites future history.