Bitcoin Forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyPNABZtHk

The first demonstrations of real Lightning Network payments for real goods and services are already there and we are still in beta phase. You can already go buy a (rather expensive) sandwich if you are lucky enough to live in Switzerland.

We are at year 0 of LN, imagine things in 5 to 10 years. We can meet in Switzerland by then when 1 BTC will buy us millions of sandwitches, and if other governments are jackasses enough to have banned Bitcoin, you already know in Switzerland there will be a Bitcoin-friendly haven for all of us to happily pay taxes there instead of being treated like criminals.

standard disclaimer

LN is a separate network that multiple coins will use.
currently bitcoiners are testing it. but remember LN is a separate network that locks peoples funds up.

even LN devs announce to use at own risk and only deposit amounts your willing to lose. as there are flaws and bugs
you may experience sudden signs of euphoria of making single transactions but to remain vigilant about the issues

meanwhile we should also concentrate on innovating the bitcoin network while other teams innovate a separate multi coin network called lightning.

lets not get too distracted by operations occuring on other networks as they are only side services that should remain voluntary to opt-in and not treated as the sole future feature that bitcoiners need

Even this Lightning Network looks pretty awesome and fast I still prefer the Bitcoin Network the one and only. :)
Damn that restaurant crypto payment system is awesome :o and it looks like the payment system of our future looks like that maybe three to five years from now, that payment system on that restaurant will be seen globally.
I hope that I can also see those kinds of restaurants in my country soon.  :)
The legendary "Satoshi Nakamoto" really changed the world! I think that he is really happy seeing his invention widely used by people all around the world.

I'm sorry for ignorance, what do you mean in multiple coins will be use? What exactly those coins? Is that altcoin? Ok, I didn't know this whole thing, that funds can be lock up without our knowledge. All I know that LN is what made the bitcoin transaction more faster than the usual and with the help of SegWit2x the blocks became larger.

Thanks for this, I should do my assignment later.

1. lightning is a separate network and needed bitcoin to change to be compatible with it.
other coins needed to do the same aswell. like litecoin
changes such as segwit bech32 addresses bitcoin (bc1q address) litecoin (ltc1q address) to easily identify the initial locked funds apart to then check the separate blockchains that the funds are truly locked when users of both are on the lightning network

2. you can spot that the "payments" inside LN are not true bitcoin or litecoin transactions because the decimals of the token representations are not 8 decimals.

3. the payment is not moving bitcoin. it is just a bunch of private agreements between parties of who owes who wat. the settlement and real bitcoin movement/confirmation happens later

i would continue to discuss the limitations, flaws and misunderstandings and over promises and under delivery of both segwit and LN but that usually causes a certain group of people to invade the topic to cause social distractions of insults and misdirections to try to confuse people while they keep adverting this other network as something great.
which is just social marketing. much like coinbase and circle do while they play around with multiple coins. but pretend they are bitcoin centric

but in short LN is not bitcoin. its a different network and is just grabbing fame and investment by socially talking about it in the same conversations as bitcoin
even the LN devs themselves are asking people to only use it at their own risk and be aware

it is probably best to use the testnet and use it to understand it for yourself and run lots of scenarios with it. as i feel if i say more this topic will get derailed with social politics

wow, that's really what i need to know. The article gave me more motivation to hold the BTC longer. You know, I have invested in BTC at 12k $ and now it's only half way down. I hope the bitcoin will be accepted and developed in more developed countries.

We're still far from mass application of the LN with real-world scenarios. Also, this doesn't mean that it'll do good for bitcoin since the Lightning Network is a third-party, off-chain solution anyways and it still requires 'trust' for you to deposit your money and hope everything goes well. The bitcoin network is already doing a great job in keeping the transaction costs at bay and confirmation times fast, the only problem I see is the number of places in which you can spend your coins freely.

no, you've been misinformed. LN is completely trustless.

LN channels are enforced by multisig contracts---there is no trusted third party involved. it is an off-chain solution (besides the on-chain transactions required to open and settle channels), and that's the reason why it can give us exponential scale. bitcoin's blockchain can't do that.

For me, that is beauty of cryptocurrency.
Speed-of-light transaction and low fee also. I really cannot wait until all governments in the world accept crypto payment for all stores and restaurants. Hope they will realize the true benefits of crypto.

trustless
1. you have to trust the factory who hands out transactions that are not broadcast as they are one layer separated from the other layer(learn Eltoo)
2. you have to trust that underneath the GUI the co-partner has not modified their node to play around
3. you have to trust that the autopilot feature is not just going to let routers raid everything you have

saying LN is trustless is like saying a webwallet is trustless (facepalm)
maybe best people actually use the testnet and try it as they wont risk real bitcoins if they are using testnet coins

this is why we are far away from mass adoption! simply because of all the false information that has being spread about lightning network. (figment already explained it). i keep seeing people either think too negative about LN thinking it is centralized, "third party", have no control,... or they think it is iron clad and without any problems and solves everything!

LN is simply a second layer on top of bitcoin that despite what franky insists is made for bitcoin which altcoins copied just as they have always been doing. it is not perfect and it is still in beta and it needs more usage to be tested more so that the problems are found and fixed.

Someone wants to enter the history of the development of the crypto currency as a famous story with the purchase of pizza. Now it will be the purchase of sandwiches in Switzerland for bitcoin using a network of lightning. In order for such a purchase to go down in history, it is necessary that after the introduction of the network of lightning, the price of bitcoin increases as much as after the purchase of pizza. Is it possible?

It's amazing to see how fast and far these technologies have come. Soon, platforms like Lightning and the new Everitoken platform will be able to do so much more for our everyday lives!

seems the promotion machine is on full steam.. give any network a bitcoin sticker and suddenly.....

P.S do you think rootstock, ripple and Bakkt are "bitcoin layers"..
dont hit reply so quickly. take time to research

(hint LN will see litecoin on the same network as bitcoin)

it's way too early to say that network topology is limited to hub-and-spoke and that the protocol is therefore prone to censorship. that's FUD. if transactions can't be routed, they can always be settled on-chain---that's why we have bitcoin miners.

would you mind elaborating on the second and third points and/or pointing to some research on these supposed vulnerabilities?


web wallets = literally depositing bitcoins with a trusted third party. how is that comparable?


that's actually great. what's the problem?

this video shows a good way and signs for crypto world, hope someday my country will have a store like that soon.

I trust that I can likewise observe those sorts of eateries in my nation soon. The amazing "Satoshi Nakamoto" extremely changed the world! I believe that he is extremely glad seeing his innovation generally utilized by individuals all around the globe.

But users can close and broadcast the latest state of their channels in the blockchain in the form of a regular on-chain transaction.

No one is saying that Lightning is doing on-chain transactions, frank. Plus no one is saying that Lightning will replace on-chain transactions because we need on-chain transactions to open and close Lightning channels in the first place.

This is wonderful and I expect to see this in a near future in most countries.

However, as others stated, it's risky to be used on main net, you also wrote it's beta. I wish to hear there are no known bugs/flaws anymore and it's safe for whoever wants to use it. That's the next big step to achieve.

Lightning network is needed to solve all the pitfall of bitcoin. The bch variant will not be needed if LN can help with instant transactions and low fees. Also it will help other coins if they can upgrade their code to run on LN. Once implemented crypto can go mainstream

its moving,slowly being accepted and integrated, it still needs time!

We are seeing a new protocol to be implemented in the infrastructure of bitcoin and the thing went really smooth from there. So that is the new layer everyone is talking about: LN.
Nothing will be the same and we can consider again the Bitcoin like a form of payment with zero or so-like fee and start using everyday situation like it was meant to be at the Satoshi's days.
You can purchase any sort of good and start paying in crypto not only such an investment thing like house, horses and cars ( and they had been doing this ) but also a cup of coffee and a beer.
It's coming guys !

it is good to see that despite all the drama that has been going on, the lightning network development and adoption is still pretty much ongoing in a strong manner.
i am counting the days for the time when the first exchange starts opening up its first LN channel and allows bitcoin deposits through LN.

Here it is! The future is near.

We are waiting for when large fast food will take bitcoin as a means of payment. This will spur the market to new growth and more people will learn about crypto-currencies

He's upset about the Lightning Network because it's essentially a bunch of IOUs, which, he is arguing, is not Bitcoin anymore. I do get where he's coming from.

But yeah, I personally think it's a welcome improvement. It's a potential game changer and it's optional, so even the most hardcore purists can ignore its existence. Lightning is essentially just an option to replace hot wallets at the end of the day, and I'm sure people will still keep a vast majority of their funds on-chain anyway.

they aren't really IOUs though. that implies trust and custody. in LN, the trust aspect has been eliminated by the use of multi-sig contracts. they are some sort of "bitcoin substitute" but there is no trust involved.

and literally, the entire point of bitcoin was to eliminate third party trust. the "banking layer" analogy is dishonest, and the "it's not bitcoin" attitude is moot since no third party trust is introduced.


lightning isn't exactly replacing hot wallets IMO. lightning = hot wallets. it's impossible to use LN without keeping your private keys online. that's by far the biggest problem, and why i will only ever use it in a limited capacity.

you might want to research the latest concepts of fortknox "factories"
you might want to research playing with payment iou's that have tokens of 12 decimals not 8 decimals "millisats"
you might want to research the payment iou's are not moving funds from A to Z. but instead AB have one account and theres an IOU contract of 12decimals in that channel.
B then has a separate account with C and theres an IOU of 12 decimals in that channel
C then has a separate account with D and theres an IOU of 12 decimals in that channel
D then has a separate account with E and theres an IOU of 12 decimals in that channel
and so on all the way to Z

and for A to make a payment to Z
A signs a 12decimal IOU with B
separately and in a different account
B signs a 12decimal IOU with C
separately and in a different account
and so on.

and as long as everyone on the route is online and has funds locked up as collateral in a factory they all agree on their individual IOU's of 12 decimals in the channels
later and separately a different contract that contains 12 decimal values can be be sent back to the factory when closing a channel. to then negotiate a 8decimal contract to exit fortknox and get back onchain usable funds. or renegotiate another set of 12 decimal iou's to reopen new channels. thus reducing the amount of onchain transactions just to close and reopen channels.

yea i hear people twist it to say its good to keep funds locked into fortknox "factories".
but without actually innovating bitcoins blockchain. fortknox owners will try to persuade people that its easier faster and cheaper to exit fortnox via altcoins.

like the gold banking era
gold in.. nickel and brass coins out. and fortknox keeps the gold

The lightening network has kept  doing its best to make bitcoin and cryptocurrency and its making a lot of sense. this is a very good news about its development and progress. i am happy we will see a better bitcoin and cryptocurency with this technology. 

It sounds interesting, I would like to see statistics in a year. I wonder how many sandwiches will be bought this way in a year.

That's kind of why I said "essentially." They're IOUs in a sense that everything is settled on-chain later.


I didn't say they were replacing hot wallets, I said they could replace them for some people. As in, a person has an option to use it or not. On-chain purists can choose to ignore it completely and keep their hot wallets completely on the blockchain.

thats really impressive, im really jealous i cant find that kind of restaurant in my country :( anyway this is what the cryptocurrency really need, all of coin need a function and real value, not only an assets that use for trading and investment. this is what people really want, blockchain and cryptocurrency technology that can be useful for them. I hope that with the emergence of this news, public and government confidence in crpytocurrency will increase, and in the future it can be accepted globally.

hmmm maybe the number of satoshi hes spend to buy a sandwich will be worth the price of one house in the future. lmao, lets see

This is great news, I believe that bitcoin in the future can destroy many coins-copies, the idea of which is just a cheap Commission.

Adoption is the key. With the help of LN, we'll see it more because it can be used as a currency while it's seen more as a store of value.

wow thats amazing, i think that is very good currency, and if the method have more popularity than bitcoin, i think bitcoin can beaten up by this method. and i think if it have more popularity, all people will use this lighting network for their currency and trade

that is cool but i think LN is best used for use cases where frequency is needed more than using it for buying a one time thing such as a sandwich. of course this is just a show of the powers of lightning network in real world applications but i think we need to see it be used in places such as exchanges and gambling sites, mixers and ...

Technically maybe yes, the Lightning Network works like a payment system of "IOUs". But of "IOUs" you have full control over, and a network that scales Bitcoin immensely more that will never be done on-chain.

Sorry franky1, development of Lightning is ongoing, and the network nodes, and users are increasing.

What an informative thread to read and the brain storming is getting tight. I love everything that I read though I'm just confuse what's the real thing and made me think more.


So this whole LN will be also be use by litecoin (sooner), so this mean bitcoin and litecoin will be sharing the network? Isn't that appropriate for bitcoin? I mean the transactions are more huge, even LN is faster, I think it will have some discrepancy.

That's actually impressive. With lightning Network being implemented in some small transactions like that, Bitcoin could possibly now become a currency that everyone wants. I'd imagine in a decade or so, cryptocurrency transactions would be sweet.

nothing against the LN continuing. but the constant advertising that its a bitcoin feature or bitcoins solution. while the devs and other less secure network promoters keep saying bitcoin cant scale and LN is needed.. is the issue.

LN should be thought of as what it really is. a separate network for multiple coins. that uses its own token of 12 decimals and a second party to co-authorise payments in channel payments, AND requiring the other parties in other channels along routes.. AND the destination to be all online to allow a payment of these 12 decimal tokens to occur faster than a bitcoin transaction would to random people.

but hey. lets hear the typical reply from other network advertisers. "if you dont like it F**k off" to another network

no

your locking your real funds(8 decimals) up with someone on the blockchain of either litecoin or bitcoin..(and other coins too)
and then in the separate network playing with 12decimal tokens that are faster. but are locked into transactions that need someone elses authority and being online to accept

as a separate service of convenience for a niche of people that have caluclated the benefits and risks and know its purpose. they can use it. but that does not mean we should waste years not re-innovating bitcoins network, purely because we should wait for LN

This is the reason why Bitcoin will not collapse and this is the reason for the country that should not ban Bitcoin because it would be detrimental to its own country. Restaurants in Switzerland have tried to attract foreign tourists to visit their country and of course what they will benefit is their own country.
I think other countries must be like a Swiss country that can accept Bitocin for the growth of its own country. for example with the payment of lightning networks for goods and services, which was carried out by the restaurant.

Lightning network is really good because it can process transactions faster than just using bitcoin.
If lightning network developers keep developing the network, i believe it will have a good scalability in the future.

I hope someone will save the video and re-upload it again in the next 10 years. Because we know there was someone who bought pizza with a lot of bitcoin. And I hope LN will be a supporter of bitcoin so crypto always lives.

I like hearing news like this because most likely news like this will strengthen and improve the price of bitcoin in various markets along with the increasing trust of people to use bitcoin especially with the new network that might overcome some of the main problems with the bitcoin transaction process.

I appreciate the honesty. But please take the gaslighting one step down.

Plus I agree that the Lightning Network is a software experiment that could fail. But give it a chance. The developers are trying their best on it.


Gaslighting, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting


Everyone is free to criticize, but not to the point of gaslighting.