Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Hardware => Topic started by: HagssFIN on March 29, 2019, 07:03:45 AM



Title: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: HagssFIN on March 29, 2019, 07:03:45 AM
Great news guys,
Canaan steps up in the power efficiency game with the new Avalon A10 series. :)

Twitter post:
https://twitter.com/canaanio/status/1111513725733724160

Quote from: Canaan Creative
We are honored to announce that Avalon A10 series is coming now!

The new A10 is a brand new miner equipped with high Hash-rate at 31 TH/S and low power consumption efficiency at 56W/T.

Any enquiry, please contact at pr@canaan-creative.com
#avalon2019 #mining #A10
@CanaanInc1

https://i.imgur.com/Wg62Ly6.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/Wg62Ly6.jpg)


Title: Re: Avalon 10 series announced
Post by: Steamtyme on March 29, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
That's awesome. I've been hoping they would come out with something. They aren't the best claimed numbers, but they are back in top contention.

Really excited to see the offering, though they may miss it with only a couple days left in the month. Great find Hagss, I'm beginning to think I need twitter to find anything out.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: frodocooper on March 29, 2019, 11:34:14 AM
I wish they didn't go with integrated PSUs. I don't trust anything other than server PSUs to deliver that amount of power without being electrical and fire hazards.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: HagssFIN on March 29, 2019, 12:11:50 PM
Yeah,
there will be a huge amount of good external psus which people can't use with their miners no more.

It seems that the 5-pin comm port, two of them, are still there in the front panel.
I like that they keep the idea of having a Rasp Pi controlling multiple miners.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 29, 2019, 12:23:24 PM
They came up with the two tube  two fan stack for cooling  pcb board is shorter easier to cool them off.  Similar to bitmain, I am hoping the gear has proper down clock the A841 had good down clock ability.  While the a851 and a921 did not.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: clgrissom3 on March 29, 2019, 12:32:05 PM
I hope they get back to having true specs again.  Up until the A921, Avalons always seemed to do better than their advertised specs.  The A921 was disappointing on that front.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on March 29, 2019, 02:28:44 PM
I wish they didn't go with integrated PSUs. I don't trust anything other than server PSUs to deliver that amount of power without being electrical and fire hazards.
Ja. However, the integrated PSU's are a large part of the better efficiencies we are seeing from the new miners so that will remain the trend.

Even the best switching regulator designs are only pushing 98% Pin > Pout eff. More common is around 94% or less so using the PSU itself to set the voltage sent to the strings of chips saves several percent power eff per-board vs using 2 stages eg AC > 12V > hash board voltage regulators > chip strings.

Another bonus is that using more chips in each string allowing the higher voltages reduces the voltage differences that can appear across each chip in the string making it easier for tuning to find a stable operating voltage.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on March 29, 2019, 02:36:45 PM
Nice, I saw this last night during my drunken twitter ranting. Waiting to hear from Liliy on pricing.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 29, 2019, 02:55:09 PM
Nice, I saw this last night during my drunken twitter ranting. Waiting to hear from Liliy on pricing.

I was going to have some vanilla vodka last night I passed it by. ;D

If this does 31th at 56 watts a th it will do 1736 watts.

The real key to it having value is the down clock  say 27th at  45 watts = 1215 watts  or maybe 25th at 45 watts = 1125 watts

I could order 50 of these and replace the entire farm at Clifton.

50 x 1125 = 56.25 kwatts  
50 x  25th = 1250 th

and I would still have 18 L3+ units.

I now have  570th  at  50kwatts
and 18 L3+ units

I am eager to find out if these are good.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on March 29, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
... I am eager to find out if these are good.

Ditto. After the 921' performing so disappointingly Canaan better pull a hat out of a rabbit ;) to get their reputation back. Perhaps offer some discount to those of us who bought the A921's?


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 29, 2019, 03:27:46 PM
I purchased 1 A921

And I tested 2 A851's    Both were Simply not good in efficiency and no clocks were helpful

I have always like dealing with Steve and Lilly  they even sent my partner buysolar to China back in 2018.

We can use a good avalon miner again.  Fingers crossed that it works well.

I could then write Avalon 1021 rocks on my logo  ;D


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: sidehack on March 29, 2019, 03:49:23 PM
I've been wondering since the SP3x days how long it was going to take people to realize long tubes don't cool very well. Looks like more than just Bitmain are noticing.

Fuzzy, I'd be surprised if the main regulators on most recent miners hit 94% and above. High voltage is good for high efficiency, but 45A in a single phase really isn't, considering two of the main sources of loss in a buck increase with current squared.

Unless their PSUs are built very cleverly, going to an integrated PSU with no board-level regulation probably means all boards run at the same voltage. If that's so, the entire machine, instead of an individual board, has to run at the level of its weakest chip. If they do have separate independently-controlled rails per board though, that's pretty sweet.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: fccs on March 29, 2019, 03:55:23 PM
I love canaans products the most, this is kind of another let down though.  Considering the m20 and bitmain now with the s17 are hitting essentially 30w/th numbers which is double in efficiency than this.  I prefer canaan for reliability and I love the daisy chain setup but ugh.  Unless the price is really low I don't see these selling much sadly


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on March 29, 2019, 03:59:54 PM
Specs are pretty close to the s15 and better than the m10. If they're shipping now it's well timed release.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 29, 2019, 04:17:09 PM
well  lets see:

m20 is 48th  at 2200 watts = 45.8 watts   not 30 watts  these have been mentioned on pangolin
m20 is 72th  at 3300 watts =  45.8 watts  not 30 watts

s17 is ? the 30/j = a number for the chip  maybe just maybe they do 40 watts on low and 45 watts on high as a unit

a1021 is 31 th at  1736 watts = 56 watts  certainly not 30 watts

the key is  does it down clock  to 25th at 1125 = 45 watts

if you can go to 45 watts  it still has value.

if it is like the A921 and A851  where down clocks suck it will be a loser

All three units avalon whatsminer and bitmain  have yet to be demoed so what's the watts per th is not sure as of now.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Artemis3 on March 29, 2019, 04:35:35 PM
https://i.imgur.com/Wg62Ly6.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/Wg62Ly6.jpg)

Don't you think they added the (minimum 50W/T) inside their ad for a reason? Perhaps they already tested it and could not get any better efficiency from them? 50W/T is pretty good in my opinion. Bitmain's S17 is probably 45ish but they claim 35... Only a third party review can tell.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 29, 2019, 06:16:52 PM
It is important for miners to know watts per th on this gear so

I contacted Steve of canaan for a demo to review.

Quote
Re: New A10
Friday, March 29, 2019 12:22 PM
From:
"PHILIP A......" <philipa......@ yahoo . com>
To:
"PHILIP A......" <philipa......@ yahoo . com> "Steven M....." <steve @ canaan . io>
Cc:
"PHILIP A......" <PHILIPMA1957 @  . com>

--------------------------------------------
Hi Steve,

I read about Canaan getting an A1021
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5125803.msg50361384#msg50361384
https://twitter.com/canaanio/status/1111513725733724160
If you have a demo available I would love to do a youtube on it.
Best regards,

Philip Arcario

philipma1957 of bitcointalk.org

My goal is to show:
S17
M20
A1021
in youtube videos as soon as I can get the gear.  It will help miners pick what is best.

Ugh on this:

https://blokforge.com/product/canaan-avalon-a10-31th-s-bitcoin-miner/

1550 usd a miner not going to work at this price  Does Say TBD

https://i.imgur.com/JknKLP3.png (https://i.imgur.com/JknKLP3.png)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: fanatic26_ on March 29, 2019, 09:36:20 PM
I wish they didn't go with integrated PSUs. I don't trust anything other than server PSUs to deliver that amount of power without being electrical and fire hazards.

I dont know about the new Avalons but many of the new units including Bitmains use 20v internal rails, 12v PSUs just wouldnt power the miner properly. Its not that they are trying to force us into their PSUs, they are just a requirement for the unit to function.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 30, 2019, 12:20:05 AM
so far

8 m10 psus
1 s15 psu
1 t15 psu
1 inno t2turbo

all fancy dancy built ins and no boom.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: frodocooper on March 30, 2019, 01:12:02 AM
... all fancy dancy built ins and no boom.

Not yet, at least. But sarcheer's M10's PSU did try to put on an early Fourth of July fireworks display (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4737927.msg50228184#msg50228184).

I find these PSUs' general lack of safety certifications disturbing.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: fccs on March 30, 2019, 03:53:42 AM
Yea at $1500 the m10 was a fricken better buy for half that LOL.  The hell are they thinking??


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Artemis3 on March 30, 2019, 03:41:24 PM
Yea at $1500 the m10 was a fricken better buy for half that LOL.  The hell are they thinking??

Canaan should revise their price structure to remain competitive, they have been pricier even back with 7xx models. One would think skipping controllers on each unit would net them some price advantage but no. Its nice to have costumer satisfaction and quality parts, but the market inevitable goes towards the lowest price per hash.

And i wanted to see those mining TVs and wifi routers too...


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on March 30, 2019, 04:09:19 PM
Not yet, at least. But sarcheer's M10's PSU did try to put on an early Fourth of July fireworks display (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4737927.msg50228184#msg50228184).

I find these PSUs' general lack of safety certifications disturbing.

Legit point.

I actually could come up with another.  Both the S17 pro and the M20 v1  should pull 3000-3400 watts

most of my 30/24 amp pdus  are fused at 15 amps a plug  which is 3600  borderline number for a piece of gear pulling 3400 watts.



Edit

I Got a hold of steve of canaan.  I will be getting one of these.

No info other then soon. ;D

But steve is pretty much as good as gold.  I will post back when he fills me in.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on April 01, 2019, 01:02:39 PM
Faboo! It will be very interesting to see how the A10's do as I'd love to pick up a couple to replace the 2 remaining power-hungry 921's I still have running.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: mgoz on April 01, 2019, 04:36:49 PM
I just don't see many of these selling when efficiency is pretty much the same as S15 and the S15 is obsolete in a week, assuming Bitmain's release date is not just a pre-sale. If Bitmain ends up being a pre-sale, then they may have a small chance as an alternative to S15, however the pricing needs to be more inline with Bitmain. I just sold my 921's. I don't even want to talk about ROI on 821/841. These units were worthless in less than a year unless you have free power and 921 was really not much more efficient than two 8 series with efficiency firmware.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 01, 2019, 04:51:02 PM
I just don't see many of these selling when efficiency is pretty much the same as S15 and the S15 is obsolete in a week, assuming Bitmain's release date is not just a pre-sale. If Bitmain ends up being a pre-sale, then they may have a small chance as an alternative to S15, however the pricing needs to be more inline with Bitmain. I just sold my 921's. I don't even want to talk about ROI on 821/841. These units were worthless in less than a year unless you have free power and 921 was really not much more efficient than two 8 series with efficiency firmware.

   The new gear only has value to those with cheap power running s9s.

 They are stated to do 56 watts a th and 50 watts minimum.
So lets say they down clock to 26th at 50 watts  that is better then the s15
and if you need to wait till july to get an s17 these are a decent replacement for s9's.

I have 20 s9's  on cheap power I plan to replace them with something better.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on April 01, 2019, 05:09:58 PM
Well it will be 60 unit MOQ to import, still waiting on pricing.

I'm thinking 900-1k/unit pricing so about 1.3k to import per unit to the US. So $1500 from a reseller in the US isn't absurd at all. Not ideal considering new gear on the horizon coming but no the worst either.

Pending Canaan's ideal margin I would personally like to see somewhere around 700/unit as even with MOQ tariffs would price this out about $1k referencing our pricing matrix.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 01, 2019, 05:41:05 PM
Well it will be 60 unit MOQ to import, still waiting on pricing.

I'm thinking 900-1k/unit pricing so about 1.3k to import per unit to the US. So $1500 from a reseller in the US isn't absurd at all. Not ideal considering new gear on the horizon coming but no the worst either.

Pending Canaan's ideal margin I would personally like to see somewhere around 700/unit as even with MOQ tariffs would price this out about $1k referencing our pricing matrix.

   Those prices are simply too high.  They won't sell  in the USA at 1500.

 I did see blokforge mention 1550 but as TBD


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: mgoz on April 01, 2019, 05:44:14 PM
So lets say they down clock to 26th at 50 watts  that is better then the s15

Will be interesting to see if you can get those numbers downclocking. I ran my S15 in low power mode for a few days when I first got it in December and it was around 18TH/s @ 50W/TH. Even if you can get those numbers with A10, efficiency is pretty much the same as S15 and Bitmain already beat them to market 4 months ago. It's good if you have older gear and can't get an S15 or S17, but looks like it may already be old gear by the time you can get one. I'm considering selling my S15 before the prices of those plummet.  They need to price it better than S15 for it to be worth it.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Steamtyme on April 01, 2019, 05:55:35 PM
When I check the Blokforge link, it shows 1199$ USD.

They do still state pricing and shipping is TBA. I'm  not sure if that's because the site picks up that I'm in Canada, as I know it displays to cover tarrifs or lack thereof depending.

They may have a price point in mind but I think to move these quickly they will need to come in low. There are just to many unknowns for them with the Bitmain, and MicroBT releases that are coming.

I am interested to see if this goes the route of say a 1021 then a 1041 following a few months later.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 01, 2019, 06:13:41 PM
well  that changed from 1550 TBD 2 days ago.  or maybe  my 1550 is still up let me check

usa price is 1550

too bad  freaking trump is killing sales in the USA.

https://i.imgur.com/h3uKt2X.png (https://i.imgur.com/h3uKt2X.png)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: sarcheer on April 01, 2019, 07:11:12 PM
When I check the Blokforge link, it shows 1199$ USD.

They do still state pricing and shipping is TBA. I'm  not sure if that's because the site picks up that I'm in Canada, as I know it displays to cover tarrifs or lack thereof depending.

They may have a price point in mind but I think to move these quickly they will need to come in low. There are just to many unknowns for them with the Bitmain, and MicroBT releases that are coming.

I am interested to see if this goes the route of say a 1021 then a 1041 following a few months later.

I got screwed over pretty badly by the last order of 741's getting canceled by Canaan and then having my order changed to an 821. I agreed to that change, thinking I was getting the best of the next generation of miners, only to have the 841 come over very shortly thereafter at a much, much better price. I'll never do a preorder in general or buy the *21/first set of a new gen from Canaan again.

I did the above ordering through minerwarez (glad to see them have virtually nothing for sale after the treatment from them) and was promised by them we would be receiving a "special gift" as a thank you for putting up with the delays and getting screwed by the immediately dropped price for those who did not preorder. Never received anything and my inquiries were ignored. To be clear, I blame the distributor for this entirely.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: mgoz on April 01, 2019, 08:24:14 PM
I'll never do a preorder in general or buy the *21/first set of a new gen from Canaan again.

Same. I paid almost $3k for an 821 pre-order. Blokforge at least gave out some coupons when the 841 came out cheaper. I had all first batches of 8 series and none of them were even close to ROI and that's before even subtracting electric costs. Only benefit was a tax deduction.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 01, 2019, 08:29:37 PM
There was a 3-4 week space in time that the A841 was a decent price.  Maybe Feb or march of 2018

Then bitmain just dropped prices on the s9 and s9i and s9j selling unit after unit of gear.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: rifleman74 on April 01, 2019, 08:55:20 PM
Those 821's are good write-off's at least for me tax-wise this year.  Other than that, yep no more pre-orders for me.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: StevenMosher on April 02, 2019, 04:14:22 AM
Well Lily and I are back in charge of setting Specs and  firmware requirements!

Trying to get super finegrain control of the power comsumption of machines so that freq can be set and reset on the fly.
In testing on the 841/851   should  migrate  easily.  

On the  10 series there will be TWO  options:

1.  Option with "intgrated" PSU.  basically this means a PSu with I2C control. There will be no PMU. Upside, miner controls
     the PSU and  you dont have to worry about your PSU burning up the PMU ( if the PSU supplies too low of a voltage for ex)
2.  Option for  regular PSU.  The hash rate will take a little hit.

Also the AUC is  gone.  Machines  daisy chain via  internet connection.   more details follow

and now for some really exciting news....

Just open sourced  the 851

http://ehash.org/


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 02, 2019, 09:55:19 AM
Hi Steve, long time no see :)
Seen these A10s testing on my pool today - must be close to ready ... :D


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 02, 2019, 01:35:25 PM
I wake up to see btc at 4750 usd and Steve of Canaan with new gear.

Good news indeed.

No auc also good news. So Ethernet to Ethernet to rasp pi?


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Steamtyme on April 02, 2019, 02:09:04 PM
~snip~

I've missed this direct from the team type of information. Looking forward to seeing the new design in action.

Did Canaan move away from the Rasp Pi for a controller? I don't recall where but there was someone here talking about a different controller model. Not sure if it was just a regional thing or not. Two different options regarding the PSU's is great, I had resigned myself to having to get models with a built in. Say you buy option 1 and the PSU dies, is it easily converted to accept a regular PSU moving forward? Or would someone need to order a replacement from Canaan?


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: HagssFIN on April 03, 2019, 01:51:20 PM
Very cool indeed to see Steve posting here again. :)

The AvalonMiner 10 product page is now available.

Link: https://canaan.io/product/avalonminer-10/ (https://canaan.io/product/avalonminer-10/)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: sarcheer on April 03, 2019, 02:00:39 PM
Just noticed, this is using 16nm chips!

Quote from the product page:

240 x A3205 Third Gen 16nm ASIC


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Biffa on April 03, 2019, 02:48:59 PM
Have we worked out that these are standalone devices? i.e. if you just buy one A10 then you don't need anything else? Just http to the management interface on the miner itself?

Does that mean that if you have the choice of running them individually, each unit plugged into a switch ala most other miners out there, or you can just have one plugged into the network and all the others daisy chained off that one miner via rj45 cables?


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on April 03, 2019, 02:59:21 PM
good question. However, the pics do not show any RJ45 jacks - only the I2C ones. Then again, we know Canaan is rather, um, 'iffy' with their pics.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Steamtyme on April 03, 2019, 03:26:24 PM
Just noticed, this is using 16nm chips!

Hmmmm, that would be interesting to see them go back. Maybe they noticed MicroBT's results. I think it's more likely whoever made the product information page slipped up a little. In the past it's generally a copy past of older hardware then they edit it with the new specs. We'll just have to wait on Steven to come back and enlighten us a bit.

Biffa-

I think there will still be need for the controller, not positive. For the networking I believe that you will be using the rj45 cables in place of the AUC cables. So only 1 device whether that be the PI/Controller is connected to the router/switch, then the rest are connected in the same fashion as previous models just a different cable.

I could be wrong but that's my understanding of the info given. I'm interested to hear more from Steven on this, it's all pretty cool. Especially the option to have a built in PSU or not.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on April 03, 2019, 03:46:50 PM
Just based on the price speculation I'm thinking controller is built in but will have daisy chain maybe like GMO designs with cat cables? Hopefully we'll get some more insights soon.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 03, 2019, 08:55:46 PM
... and some info that no one already knows :)
It's AB (overt of course)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on April 04, 2019, 04:14:33 AM
We got solid confirm on pricing. Thanks to everyone from Canaan we've been talking with lately.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 08, 2019, 07:11:36 AM
... and some info that no one already knows :)
It's AB (overt of course)
... and I checked one mining on the pool, it was getting 31.89TH/s for an hour of shares.
(advertised rate is 31+TH/s)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: fccs on April 08, 2019, 11:41:38 PM
Canaan makes great hardware no doubt.  This just.. simply is priced too high for what it is unfortunately.  Please keep in mind the m10 was under $800 not too long ago and had better specs than this asic.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 09, 2019, 12:05:59 AM
Canaan makes great hardware no doubt.  This just.. simply is priced too high for what it is unfortunately.  Please keep in mind the m10 was under $800 not too long ago and had better specs than this asic.

it may be a bit more efficient somewhere I saw 50 watts a th as best number and the m10 was more like 58 watts a th at best number.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 09, 2019, 12:07:11 AM
Canaan makes great hardware no doubt.  This just.. simply is priced too high for what it is unfortunately.  Please keep in mind the m10 was under $800 not too long ago and had better specs than this asic.
No the M10 didn't.

Simple math:
The M10 is around 71W/Th in normal running mode 31/34TH
Better than 71W/Th was only gained by lowering the hash rate.

The A10 claimed specs are 56W/Th in normal running mode 31TH
No idea how good these will be with a lower hash rate - but the Avalon it's possible for full control of the Freq/Volt from the web page.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: fccs on April 09, 2019, 12:10:58 AM
No the M10 didn't.

Simple math:
The M10 is around 71W/Th in normal running mode 31/34TH

The A10 claimed specs are 56W/Th in normal running mode 31TH

My bad, and my m10 never runs 71w/th lmao.  It's def more like 60w-65/th- and literally half the price... shipped.  So... m10 avg is like 65w/th (normal power) and 33th at $780 shipped vs 56w/th (normal power assuming) 31th $1500 + shipping.  Like.. seriously.  I mean hey, if people are willing to pay literally double the price for.. a little less power used then more power to them.  On paper though that sounds like a absolutely absurd idea.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 09, 2019, 12:35:14 AM
My bad, and my m10 never runs 71w/th lmao.  It's def more like 60w-65/th- and literally half the price... shipped.  So... m10 avg is like 65w/th (normal power) and 33th at $780 shipped vs 56w/th (normal power assuming) 31th $1500 + shipping.  Like.. seriously.  I mean hey, if people are willing to pay literally double the price for.. a little less power used then more power to them.  On paper though that sounds like a absolutely absurd idea.

Yes, you made a case about the cost already, not sure why you are repeating it, but you stated "and had better specs than this asic."
Which is what I was correcting.

... though I will add that Canaan has the best record for reliability and support ...


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: fccs on April 09, 2019, 12:41:50 AM
Yes, you made a case about the cost already, not sure why you are repeating it, but you stated "and had better specs than this asic."
Which is what I was correcting.

... though I will add that Canaan has the best record for reliability and support ...

Will def agree on that.  Not that I have any any issues at all with my m10's but just in general.  Canaans reliability I know for years to be well.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on April 09, 2019, 02:20:02 AM
A10 at stock spec is best over s15, m10, m10s. Pricing at 1.2k on canaan's site is pretty on par with the way this market is now. I believe the July release is the only barrier to making it a no brainer.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 09, 2019, 02:40:58 AM
A10 at stock spec is best over s15, m10, m10s. Pricing at 1.2k on canaan's site is pretty on par with the way this market is now. I believe the July release is the only barrier to making it a no brainer.

S15 is  60 high 50 low ------- cant buy it
m10 is 69 high 59 low ------- cant buy it
a1021 is supposed to be   56 high 50 low

I will get at least

 1 A1021
 1 s17  maybe the cheapest model
 1 m20 72 th on order

evaluate all three  and decide which one I will get a lot of.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Thetaj on April 09, 2019, 10:19:49 AM
I might just get 12 of these guys instead of the S17, gonna wait and see for another month


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Artemis3 on April 11, 2019, 06:07:41 PM
Just noticed, this is using 16nm chips!

Quote from the product page:

240 x A3205 Third Gen 16nm ASIC

Very well, i hope, really that they also plan to come with a 12nm part and 7nm part. MicroBT is good competition but more is netter.

I'm not very sure $1200 for 31T will look very enticing vs, say. 33T for $785 (especially with that tax in the US), but lets see who makes the first independent review, maybe its quiet or can be made more efficient.

https://canaan.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/A10-mainpage2.jpg (https://canaan.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/A10-mainpage2.jpg)

Model NameAvalonMiner 10
Hash Rate31TH/s,-5%~+5%
Power Consumption1736 Watts,-5%~+15%(On Wall)
(Minimum, Variant power consumption at different temperature and speed)
Power Efficiency56J/TH,-5%~+15%
Power Supply Input176~264V AC 50~60Hz 7.5~10A
Chips240 x A3205 Third Gen 16nm ASIC
Smart ControllerCanaan Kendryte K210 Artificial Intelligence SOC
ConnectionRJ45, Up to 254 Miners(theory) Daisy-Chain Connection
Operating Temperature-10℃~35℃
Air-intake Temperature-10℃~35℃
Cooling2 x 12038 FAN
Noise70db (Typical)
Net Dimensions190mm x 190mm x 292mm
Net Weight7.9kg

I know they might just want to sound "advanced" and all, but that description is kinda scary. AI System On Chip? What else does that thing do besides handling the Asics?

PS: Repost per request of moderator.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: StevenMosher on April 15, 2019, 01:07:58 PM
Have we worked out that these are standalone devices? i.e. if you just buy one A10 then you don't need anything else? Just http to the management interface on the miner itself?

Does that mean that if you have the choice of running them individually, each unit plugged into a switch ala most other miners out there, or you can just have one plugged into the network and all the others daisy chained off that one miner via rj45 cables?

A miner consists of 2 hash boards and a  MMU.  the PMU is gone. The MMU ( miner management unit ) has two  versions, and this will quickly transition to 1 version.

The first version uses the old style rasb pi  to AUC.  My best estimate is that only a few machines will be built in that style.

In parallel we are finalizing test on a new style MMU  that has  RJ45  instead of the old 5 pin connector. with this version, the PI will be gone, the AUC will be gone and machines will daisy chain over ethernet. no real limit on how many you can chain..

This MMU is up and working, final gerber released and so  mass pro will switch over  ASAP.  If you get a AUC  version, we will probably have a  replacement MMU ( with RJ45)  to upgrade. I ordered the parts to do this.



I know they might just want to sound "advanced" and all, but that description is kinda scary. AI System On Chip? What else does that thing do besides handling the Asics?

The  AI chip is here

https://kendryte.com/

https://kendryte.com/downloads/

it's not scary.



... and I checked one mining on the pool, it was getting 31.89TH/s for an hour of shares.
(advertised rate is 31+TH/s)

I was running at 38TH earlier today  at 40C in the enviromental test lab. fun times.



Hmmmm, that would be interesting to see them go back. Maybe they noticed MicroBT's results. I think it's more likely whoever made the product information page slipped up a little. In the past it's generally a copy past of older hardware then they edit it with the new specs. We'll just have to wait on Steven to come back and enlighten us a bit.

Biffa-

I think there will still be need for the controller, not positive. For the networking I believe that you will be using the rj45 cables in place of the AUC cables. So only 1 device whether that be the PI/Controller is connected to the router/switch, then the rest are connected in the same fashion as previous models just a different cable.

I could be wrong but that's my understanding of the info given. I'm interested to hear more from Steven on this, it's all pretty cool. Especially the option to have a built in PSU or not.

Nope its 16nm  because the wafer cost per TH on yeilded die is lower on 16nm than 7nm.

No controller required in the RJ45  version, cgminer runs on the AI chip,  dual core  risc V.

I think the option with the non integrated PSU will probably rule the day, especially when folks figure out that if you have the right PSU, you can run it   above 31TH.. (31 TH is running about 1/2 the max clock) you'll take an effciiency hit that more than pays for itself at lower power prices.  

The purchasing decision and operating decisions become a bit more complex when you look at running the machine in max effciency mode ( say 24TH ) versus running it in max hash rate mode ( 38+ today) And how do I just put one number on the spec sheet? and then you have to factor in how efficiency changes with ambient temp.

Its almost like an AI problem. just kidding. But I do foresee customers who will now have fine grain control of the frequency that is tied to the actual operating conditions of their farm.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on April 15, 2019, 05:05:13 PM
This is a nice luxury to have you here Steve. Thanks for the info.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 15, 2019, 05:43:54 PM
... Its almost like an AI problem. just kidding. But I do foresee customers who will now have fine grain control of the frequency that is tied to the actual operating conditions of their farm.

Making this work well = key and very important to a lot of us.

yeah you will always have a guy with 10 + megawatts of 2 cent power that just runs the gear cranked.

But lots of us have multiple locations that need more efficient gear that is quiet. So having a unit that does both will be nice. I can't wait to get one to test out.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: HagssFIN on April 15, 2019, 08:13:41 PM
Thanks for sharing these details with us Steve!


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: StevenMosher on April 16, 2019, 01:01:07 AM
Thanks for sharing these details with us Steve!

I will email you some other stuff  that the mod deleted.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 16, 2019, 01:57:22 AM
I will email you some other stuff  that the mod deleted.

The mod here goes OCD on posts and edits and combines them all the time.
He gets paid by the forum for each change he does :P
You have no choice but to put up with it.

The info you posted is probably all combined in your last post.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 16, 2019, 01:59:28 AM
The mod here goes OCD on posts and edits and combines them all the time.
He gets paid by the forum for each change he does :P      << this is funny ;D
You have no choice but to put up with it.

The info you posted is probably all combined in your last post.

At mods  I just had to say I smiled a bit at the bolded line.

feel free to delete me ;D


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: HagssFIN on April 16, 2019, 07:39:10 AM
"The stuff" Steve mentioned sending earlier is video material from the A10 lab testing.

These videos are public at his YouTube channel,
so I'm comfortable sharing these here at the forum.

Really cool to see this process, and project going forward.

Enviromental test lab
https://youtu.be/17Yhi87A37k (https://youtu.be/17Yhi87A37k)

A10 test lab
https://youtu.be/j74U08QD36Y (https://youtu.be/j74U08QD36Y)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: StevenMosher on April 16, 2019, 08:04:01 AM
It was just a link to a youtube vid of the test at the enviromental lab. I emailed it to Matti.
its on my youtube channel.

Finalizing pricing now. It's rather difficult because most of the pricing is done on a  RMB per TH  basis in china. Irrespective of efficiency.

In short, the domestic market doesnt care about efficiency that much.

Lets  compare:

38  TH   @  2500  watts    .065J/GH    @ 3 cent power   =   $5.79  per day     2 years = 4226
31  TH   @  1800  watts    .058J/GH    @ 3 cent power   =    $4.89  per day.   2  years = 3569

Same machine:  same cost.  and everyone sells on RMB per TH.. well which   performance do you pick to price it?

Now compare M10

33  TH  @  1850 Watts    .056 J/GH    @ 3 cent power   = $5.26  Per day          2 years  = 3839

Now compare

33  TH  @  1850 Watts    .056 J/GH    @ 6 cent power   = $3.93  Per day          2 years  = 2868
38  TH   @  2500  watts    .065J/GH    @ 6 cent power   =   $3.99  per day       2 years =  2912

Of course guys here know how to do this math. The math on having a reliable system is harder. The math on how many machines actually deliver the promised spec ( or higher) is also harder to estimate. The math on reducing your number of network connections  because of daisy changing is probably easier.

So, its trivally true that the lower your power price the  more likely you are to trade efficiecny for hash rate. The vast major of huge customers are below  6 cents, all in. So they have to look at all the various modes the machine can run in. After seeing what Phillip was doing, I kinda pressed on engineering to make on the fly frequency changes a lot easier.  There is STILL a long way to go on what I would call proper specifications for systems: in particular I would like to see independent lab testing of machines and like to finally publish some hard data on how performance changes as a function of temperature. Who knows with a built in neural net asic maybe somebody will discover that the machine can learn to control itself. The clock cores already adaptively adjust  their clock rate as a function of DH.

Any way,   a few other updates.  machines will probably be built in a mix of with PSU  and W/O PSU. You can run the machine  with an integrated PSU ( it has voltage control over I2C)  or just attach your own PSU. And if you get it with the integrated PSU  you can always switch it.

Price on the website is  just a stand in price.  It will be below that once we start taking orders. While we have a bunch of machines in test, Lily and I want to get test results from the first  Trial run. You should see those system hit the pool any day now.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Steamtyme on April 16, 2019, 08:07:06 AM
Nice to see the miner up and running.

I kept waiting for them to update the miner status page, or for cut to an hour or later. Either way definitely promising, a big plus with summer coming is seeing them actually push the miner to 40C.

Nope its 16nm  because the wafer cost per TH on yeilded die is lower on 16nm than 7nm.
No controller required in the RJ45  version, cgminer runs on the AI chip,  dual core  risc V.
I think the option with the non integrated PSU will probably rule the day, especially when folks figure out that if you have the right PSU, you can run it   above 31TH.. (31 TH is running about 1/2 the max clock) you'll take an effciiency hit that more than pays for itself at lower power prices.  
The purchasing decision and operating decisions become a bit more complex when you look at running the machine in max effciency mode ( say 24TH ) versus running it in max hash rate mode ( 38+ today) And how do I just put one number on the spec sheet? and then you have to factor in how efficiency changes with ambient temp.
Its almost like an AI problem. just kidding. But I do foresee customers who will now have fine grain control of the frequency that is tied to the actual operating conditions of their farm.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reading this it's hard to tell what the anticipation is for the miner or the fun/interest of being able to tweak and adjust for your needs. Note to self don't dump the PSU's yet.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 16, 2019, 11:42:03 AM
After seeing what Phillip was doing, I kinda pressed on engineering to make on the fly frequency changes a lot easier.  There is STILL a long way to go on what I would call proper specifications for systems: in particular I would like to see independent lab testing of machines and like to finally publish some hard data on how performance changes as a function of temperature. Who knows with a built in neural net asic maybe somebody will discover that the machine can learn to control itself. The clock cores already adaptively adjust  their clock rate as a function of DH.

Yeah I worked out with the A741 a couple of years ago how to do the frequency via the "More Options" field - since you can put any cgminer settings in there (rather than having to login and change the init script)
I started doing the A741 heater back in 2017 since it was less power than my home heater :)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg19893916#msg19893916

As long as the options are in cgminer, it's not a problem to be able to change the settings, but of course a specific web page option to set it is more help for the less technical.
(and I failed dismally to get the A851 or A921 to do it last year when I got them from Canaan, since the stepping changed - so I didn't know til you released the code in Nov what the values where :P and by then it was summer again - winter coming up again soon, I'll get them out of the cupboard and try to get them to work as heaters also)

While we have a bunch of machines in test, Lily and I want to get test results from the first  Trial run. You should see those system hit the pool any day now.

The time I posted about it was to say "These really exist and they match the specs shown on the web sites" :)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5125803.msg50509226#msg50509226

If you have time, you can get one of the devs to message me per the usual channel, or send me a PM, to let me know when you do a faster test and I'll check out the individual miners and post the numbers.
(takes me a few minutes effort, I find a miner that was on before and after the hour, then do the calc on the shares it submitted for that hour, since their not individually reported on the pool, they all use the same worker name, which is ok of course)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: StevenMosher on April 17, 2019, 01:36:01 AM
Ok,  we only had an hour or two in the lab and the customer wanted to point the machines at their pool after we did our initial tests. We were in such a rush across beijing in traffic to get to the lab that I totally forgot about alerting you.

We were also surprised by getting 38TH as we predicted 37 based on the voltage setting of the PSU. There is even more headroom in frequency, ( say at least 33%) but we may hit cooling limits and we  hit the limits of the power strip when we pushed it beyond 2500.

I need to do some more structured tests and longer times at temperature, Needs some prep time and we will give you a heads up  when we head to the lab again.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on April 17, 2019, 02:00:56 AM
Ok,  we only had an hour or two in the lab and the customer wanted to point the machines at their pool after we did our initial tests. We were in such a rush across beijing in traffic to get to the lab that I totally forgot about alerting you.

We were also surprised by getting 38TH as we predicted 37 based on the voltage setting of the PSU. There is even more headroom in frequency, ( say at least 33%) but we may hit cooling limits and we  hit the limits of the power strip when we pushed it beyond 2500.

I need to do some more structured tests and longer times at temperature, Needs some prep time and we will give you a heads up  when we head to the lab again.

I can probably find them (in the logs) via the diff they were mining at and hopefully a full hour ... will reply once I've done that.

Edit: didn't find any single a10's with 30-40k work diff - so I guess they were chained miners?
Next time just tell me the time (+timezone) you ran them and how you chained them (1, 2, 3 etc) and I should be able to find the stats
(the share logs are eternal)
If you give one a different worker name than the default (e.g. canaan.38) then I'll be able to find it even easier :)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on April 18, 2019, 06:16:49 PM
Steve if you want me to "test" heat limits in my garage just let me know. ;)



Looks like canaan.io/shop updated.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 18, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Looks like canaan.io/shop updated.

So a 31th more efficient model
and a 33.5th less efficient model


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: ccgllc on April 19, 2019, 08:07:18 PM
Still... 56J/TH vs. BItmain's claim of ~40J/Th (29% less power).

Can't competitively buy anything compliments of the Trump Tax, and refuse to buy anything from Bitmain ever again, so guess I'll just have to wait for a power competitive product.  *sigh*


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Artemis3 on April 20, 2019, 01:54:20 PM
Still... 56J/TH vs. BItmain's claim of ~40J/Th (29% less power).

Can't competitively buy anything compliments of the Trump Tax, and refuse to buy anything from Bitmain ever again, so guess I'll just have to wait for a power competitive product.  *sigh*

There is also MicroBT (http://www.microbt.com/), and we have yet to see how much tweaking can the newer Canaan units take by downclocking. Price has always been a weakness for Canaan, but at least they are trying... I though Canaan was readying 7nm parts but their latest "A10" is still 16nm, hope is if they are brewing something new at 12nm or less like MicroBT is.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: philipma1957 on April 20, 2019, 02:53:54 PM
Right now  price works against them.  USA buyers get hit hard with trump tax  27.6%  and  the efficiency is only okay.

Paying 1500+  after trump tax and shipping is difficult.  

I hope to get one soon  to test.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: ccgllc on April 20, 2019, 06:07:35 PM
I guess the other way to think about this is relative to the previous generation S9s...

e.g.  An S9 running Bitmain firmware in Low Power Enhanced Mode pulls about 9.8TH at, oh, ~85J/TH...

That means your getting about 3X the performance at 56J/TH for about a 1/3rd less power.  At $1500, that is like paying $500 for an improved efficiency S9.  Relative to the ~$2K/S9 we were paying a year ago (ok, maybe plus a few months), that is quite the deal.  Looks like e-bay is selling S9s w/PSUs for ballpark $250.

Wonder what that works out to in power ROI?  Lets see, very rough math... assume $0.10/kwh, 850W/S9, so 2550 for 3 of them... x 24 x 30 = $183.50/month in power.  The avalon will save about a third, so call it $60/month vs (3) S9s, so a bit over a year to break even. 

Seems rather risky...  Of course, mining Bitcoin always has been.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on May 17, 2019, 01:25:29 PM
... I though Canaan was readying 7nm parts but their latest "A10" is still 16nm, hope is if they are brewing something new at 12nm or less like MicroBT is.
The A921 painfully proved to them that the 7nm node process is just not ready for prime time yet. Too expensive with results that are too variable and I expect it to remain so for at least another 6 months. With Microbt nailing it on the 16nm node Canaan made a wise choice taking a step back to 16nm for their A10.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: sarcheer on May 23, 2019, 06:06:44 PM
Have any of these shipped/appeared in the wild yet?


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Artemis3 on May 23, 2019, 06:34:57 PM
Have any of these shipped/appeared in the wild yet?

I'm also waiting for a full review, complete with: unboxing, web ui settings, power consumption, noise levels, tweaks for maximum efficiency and its respective parts disassembly :)

This is Cannan's first asicboost chip eh? My first immediate negatives would be: price, and the 30C max ambient temperature. Its a good positive that they would (finally) allow simple LAN cables to be used, greatly simplifying setup (but is this still controlled from elsewhere as usual?)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on May 23, 2019, 07:58:42 PM
A10 not slated for shipping till July.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: kano on May 24, 2019, 01:33:36 PM
A10 not slated for shipping till July.
That was what was stated in this thread back in April ... ...


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on May 27, 2019, 02:47:51 PM
Sure was but sarcheer's question was just a few days ago.



Looks like new orders for 1041 are shipping end of August now.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: PassThePopcorn on May 29, 2019, 06:46:12 PM
Soon... and that spelling ;D.

https://i.imgur.com/ggwxdeG.png (https://i.imgur.com/ggwxdeG.png)


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: minefarmbuy on May 30, 2019, 11:50:37 PM
Spelling is still better than my own.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: sarcheer on June 22, 2019, 05:03:27 AM
Just submitted an order through Blokforge for an A1041 shipping July 15-20 for $1891 w/ shipping. Will update when it arrives with unboxing/setup pics and info.


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: StevenMosher on June 24, 2019, 03:00:25 AM
I'm also waiting for a full review, complete with: unboxing, web ui settings, power consumption, noise levels, tweaks for maximum efficiency and its respective parts disassembly :)

This is Cannan's first asicboost chip eh? My first immediate negatives would be: price, and the 30C max ambient temperature. Its a good positive that they would (finally) allow simple LAN cables to be used, greatly simplifying setup (but is this still controlled from elsewhere as usual?)

haha  no not our first. It was in previous versions, just not exposed. but now that the patent issues are resolved...

machine operates up to 40C, been testing from -20 to 40C.

Controller is in the miner, on chip. Our AI chip runs cgminer


Title: Re: Avalon A10 series announced
Post by: Steamtyme on June 24, 2019, 09:43:48 PM
machine operates up to 40C, been testing from -20 to 40C.
Controller is in the miner, on chip. Our AI chip runs cgminer

Temps are good, for the summer months so that will be nice when it hits the high 30's here. Are you guys still planning on launching the Units without a built-in PSU? I haven't seen any come up available yet or did the idea get scrapped?