Bitcoin Forum

I know this has been kicked around a few times, but I couldn't find a solid discussion around it and reasoning behind keeping this feature available to all. I've only seen a handful of threads that don't appear to be scammy by nature using either of these features in the Marketplace. When I say locked topics I'm only referring to being able to toggle the feature for bumping. I'm not even proposing an outright elimination of the feature, this could be a feature some users could be whitelisted for by Admins or Marketplace Mods. A good example of a whitelistable account might be brokers maintaining a large amount of items in 1 thread.

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems the bad far outweighs the good by keeping these features available for everyone, considering it's the go to move for Newbie accounts looking for a quick score. The few users who feel their topic will be spammed or they may be harassed can make use of the "report to moderator" function. The rest of the threads will be open to have reasonable questions asked and discussion to take place on this forum, considering this is where the Ads are placed. It will still depend on members to ask the right questions but I think there are plenty out there that patrol and will do just that.

There have in the past been concerns as well around these features empowering and protecting the potential scams themselves. They can spread false information about escrows gear and anything they really want with little recourse available. There is no way apart from leaving feedback and hoping people believe it or are not convinced it's frivolous through whatever means of contact these people use. I get it that it's still up to people to do their due diligence and they should catch these tricks, but unfortunately a lot of us learn the hard way. It's an unfortunate by product of the protections certain banks and cards have afforded us.

With the recent steps to display a warning based on DT trust to logged out users. I'm hoping we can take further steps to improve the Marketplace through transparency, functionality and safety.

I don’t like self moderated topics anywhere. They’re open to manipulation & dishonesty.

I know there are situations where it can be seen as a positive to have them but if it was up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I’d do away with them altogether.

Just a personal preference, don’t shoot the messenger :)

I think self mod is a positive but the posts should remain viewable by at least some as an option, so they dont display as part of the discussion but as an option are revealable on request.    Obviously if this is possible the participants on the thread can call out any bad action to deceive but it also gives OP the ability to remove rubbish and OT posts from the flow of conversation


I saw that recently and thought it should be displayed as clearly for everyone, on new accounts that start threads at least

Self mod topics have been historically effective at curbing shitposts - at least on my threads. So I don't agree with your message messenger. If you were in Sparta, you'd be at the bottom of a well now  ::) ::)

To be honest, very less people's using self moderated thread to prevent spam. Most of use self moderated thread for manipulation. On the other hand, one of main scammy activity is, "sell on lock thread". Those users try to sell by locked thread that means there is something wrong, and personally I believe that kind of behaviour is one of symptom of scam.

However, I am not fan of self moderated thread but it would change based on user rank. Self moderated thread should be disable below full member rank.

^^ Thats a good compromise, someone known to the forum should have far more ability and discretion then somebody who only just appeared and is far more likely to operate in a way outside forum rules as they are not even taking part in discussions for much time.

What positive are you talking about? That self moderated thread prevent spamming, right? Oh, please come on. If spam were the issue the posts could be deleted. But the evil about such threads is that they stiffen freedom of speech. I think this causes more harm than good.

Same;  You get one person with a wrong conception or stick up their butt and end up with 3 pages of useless posts that are far off topic.... usually if I delete posts on my few self-moderated threads, I will leave a quote reference chain where it ended and delete the rest.... see my xmr-stak thread for a prime example.


However;


I do agree that self moderated threads do not belong in the marketplace section.


Anyone complaining of "freedom of speech"  look into the TOS agreement you said yes to when you signed up.   Second;  this is a privately owned website;  not a public one..... don't act as if it is such.

I agree self-moderated topics can serve a purpose outside of the Marketplace. There was an initiative a while back where some members created all topics this way. The idea was they were going to reduce the workload on the Mods by deleting Spam and off-topic themselves. Whether you agree with them or not in discussion threads is up to you, and you can choose to post there accordingly.

The purpose of this thread is only in relation to Marketplace sections.
I disagree anyone has the capacity to use it properly or abuse it, irregardless of rank. That's why I like the idea of needing to be whitelisted. The requirement might be your account needs to have enough substance a Mod can make a determination on whether you need it or not; or if it's a net benefit to allow someone to use it.

^^ agree with your take because, i took time to read through reputation and scam section of the forum, and discovered that, many questionable accounts on reputation and scams accusation are more of high rank member accounts than lower accounts, so, it will be unfair to the lower class. In the light of the requirement, that wouldn't be fair either as there are likely to be favoritism from MODS, which could possibly result to another struggle between forum members and MOD in question. Let it be disable irrespective of ranks, thanks.

I don't see any harm a self moderated thread does I feel it should be encouraged across all baords including even meta. Lets observe the board in question (Marketplace boards and subboard) a self moderated thread helps to prevent off topic replies and sig spam reducing the workload on moderators. If you feel a self moderated thread will encourage scams then don't patronize goods or services started with a self moderated thread from a member you don't trust.

In as much as you want freedom of speech you still have to respect OP decisions. I do observe off topic replys on service thread that if a self moderated option was active it would had done the trick in deleting such irrelevant discussions. Self moderated thread helps prevent irrelevant discussions so it shouldn't be discouraged.

We’re not in Sparta though are we. We’re adult males living in the present day, not some fantasy film shit.

Whilst they can be abused they're also great for keeping trolls and spammers out of your own thread. If people don't like the moderation here (or lack thereof then they can moderate their own threads how they see fit). Mods rarely get involved with trolling or users just being annoying (and that is obviously completely subjective) so users should moderate their own threads and make up their own rules if they want. It others don't like it then they can either not post in those threads or create their own for censor free discussion. You can even self-moderate that one if you want and mod it how you like. Sure, there are lots of scammers taking advantage of it also but to me a self-modded and locked thread is a huge alarm bell and now we even have warnings for outside users if they're marked so I think people should just use their own initiative and protect themselves rather than relying on the forum to protect against scammers.


Staff don't moderate scams so that's what the feedback system is for.

I'm in no way denying the benefits that people may find in using these threads, I just think it's a small number within the marketplace. I also am not expecting Mods to begin identifying and fighting scams. I decided to look at it this way, Are they a net positive in the Marketplace?

Yes the feedback system has the potential to deal with warnings being placed, that only happens if someone in that users trust list gets there first and tags that thread as they see fit. This is all sideways from my main point though. I  just don't see the overall benefit to these being an option in the Marketplace.

Is there really any reason that the Marketplace can't evolve to provide a better (imo)  overall user experience without imposing rules. It could be seen with the same argument as not being able to edit posts in Auctions.

So anyone below a certain rank is automatically a scammer.

Got it.



Sparta was real.

Not all of us here are males.

That film was no shit.

Not all of us are adults.

Sound is like moderate thread by forum moderator. Who will be responsible if in case happen any scams from self moderated thread? if its whitelisted by forum moderators? Usually forum user will raise question why moderators approved this self moderated threads? But id its auto whitelisted based on rank then I don't think there will remain any space to raise question if anyone get scam. Because that time it will be a normal procedure.

I see no problem in having self-moderated threads anywhere on the forum but I agree with OP that locked threads should be removed from the marketplace. If a thread is locked immediately after the thread is started those threads should be removed since it is a big red flag.

A question to those who report a lot: What happens when you report a closed thread in the marketplace? How is your report treated?

Already discussed "n" number of times and as I already stated my reason here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5136150.msg51075164#msg51075164), I don't see a reason why self-moderated option should be disabled. The problem of having newbies or scammers on this forum is not a new one and it has also been discussed a billion times how to stop/prevent it but none has been implemented or even "considered".


So another way of giving SOME users an advantage over the others like DT and most merited members? Why? Other members have no right to use the marketplace of bitcointalk and prevent spam?




Moderators don't remove posts that appear "harassing", "trolling", "personal attacks" and so on. Even doxxing is allow and only SPAM posts are deleted so no point of the @bold.


The scamming problem is a problem the DT members deal with. If you find anything fishy, report to them.


Nothing new has been said here at all.

Here is an example below, I think also not allowing a brand new account these privileges would help.    The very basic scam which I presume works enough times, is he asks for payment first and delivers zero.

To me the main danger comes from the brand new account with no history, similar things happen on twitter with crypto addresses as part of it.   When I first signed upto the forum we posted in the newbies section and otherwise read only in the other parts of the forum, then after a while you learnt a bit and could post.  Now day 1 there is a burden of dealing with the immediate risk of accounts with no history to them.
A newbie should at least require an advocate to co sign a new thread ?

I proposed not very long ago that a good solution would be to not allow someone to actively try to sell or buy publicly when their thread is locked.

Someone could obviously still sell via PM, but they would be advertising that their trades are finished or on hold.

This has been discussed adnauseum. You aren't the first one to think this is just an oh so simple fix. It is not. Just because you personally don't have a valid use for locked and self moderated topics doesn't mean they should be removed. Its like saying well since I own a car we don't need sidewalks because I can drive everywhere, and fuck everyone who walks or rides a bike. I don't know if you noticed, but this place is full of trolls and the mods are not always snappy to take action (if they even care to). Self moderated and locked topics serve the purpose of allowing people to have simple sales threads uninterrupted by trolls and bored morons.

One common example is any time you list a gift card, even at cost, there are always 100 cunts demanding you sell it under cost because there are 500 people selling stolen gift cards and they think that is the going rate. This is just one example. These features were put there for a reason. You need to find another solution to these issues other than just stripping features one by one because you personally don't find them useful.

I understand why someone might want to use a self moderated thread to stop trolls from harassing you. This will usually be one or two people and this would be clear to someone looking at the deletion counter. If I see that 30 posts from even 2-3 people were deleted, I would write this off as being harassed by a few trolls after doing a little research to confirm there are no scam accusations unresolved.

I would welcome your enlightenment if you explained why you believe a locked, self moderated thread would be a good way to handle a sales thread.

From this thread where theymos brought up the self moderated topic option Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152876.0

You would say it was to was to effect positively the reply a post that is self moderated can get. But IMO(stand to be corrected) I don't think at that scam and fraud on the part of the OP was in major consideration.  It was just to create a healthy thread for the OP who has the ultimate power in the thread.
As the forum was then is not the same as it is now. We get to see more members with scam intentions and that option is like giving them a leverage to carry out there activities.
Although the intents of the self moderated topic option is good, If it can be looked into and some little changes made in some areas. Then it would be very much guided

I always make sales threads with self-moderation enabled because of three reasons mainly,

• Prevent sales trash
• Prevent spam & shitposting for the sake of sig
• Prevent others to promote his/her products/services in my threads

It's not to manipulate or because of dishonesty, I always make OP as transparent as possible, even after that someone gets an issue then they are always welcome to create a thread against me in rep board (if I have deleted anyone's post from my threads for trying to manipulate or for being dishonest).

For example, yesterday someone posted to promote his service in my thread and I have deleted that right away.

I'm posting this to say that self-moderated option is needed in every board for any reason, but what I don't like about this option to be available for newbies and jr.members.
They really don't have anything to lose. If their account gets tagged then they will create a new one with no time and will start scamming again or do whatever their bad intention is.

Probably a net negative imho if we're talking just the marketplace. It seems to be used majorly by scammers in there. Maybe admins should look at other alternatives. What about only certain ranks can self-moderate threads in the marketplace??? Is there any reason to allow brand new Newbie Members to be able to do so especially when most of them are scammers??? I don't think that would be huge inconvenience to new users and I'd say the majority of new users utilizing the feature will just be scammers in the first place. Maybe make users earn the right to self-moderation??? Perhaps make it so you have to be a Member and up. Not so easy to get your account to Member status but anyone can create a new disposable Newbie account which they will abandon if it gets red tagged. Scammers may be less inclined to waste their precious Member accounts and the ten merit it takes to be one.
 

Sparta may have been real but that film was mostly fantasy.

Maybe you think or see a ton of threads I miss where legit users are in need of this feature. Feel free to point them out. The point of this topic was not to dismiss the idea, but bring the discussion centered around this point to one place for review and discussion. Who's to say getting whitelisted wouldn't be a painless process, is the unknown of how the system rolls out enough reason to discredit it before it's trialed?

They do remove off-topic. Most are also smart enough to distinguish when someone is only attempting to appear on-topic.
Not going to go to deep into DT as that tends to derail a discussion. The problem there is it's a rotating system, or is designed to become one. In this case you might need to encourage the multiple tags, or continuously seek a new DT to tag an account if the last one is no longer on the list. Again not a solution just a band-aid.


Feel free to point me to any of the threads that had an indepth discussion about this, and reasoning behind the decision to keep it in place. I looked and couldn't find it. I never stated that I recently had the most original thought and simplest of fixes. I don't get the comparison to sidewalks maybe that works for some but I think we can find enough examples within the marketplace to have this discussion like below.
You're right so again for this person who wants to sell their giftcard. Might be helpful if these "cunts" didn't have 500 locked/selfMod topics to compare against for a price cut. That might be more helpful for that person as opposed to lumping them in the same group and forcing them to hide in one of these topics, cutting off open communication with legit buyers to avoid the trolls.

Again I would see this as a case to be made for it being a feature that one could be whitelisted for.

So for anyone opposed to this feel free to bring your ideas to the table. This is a discussion and I welcome all opinions and input, I just don't feel the "That's how it's always been" to be a compelling reason to not try or explore other options.

And given your history and use of the system you would be someone that would look to be whitelisted. I envision a pinned topic where people can post seeking to be whitelisted, might be congested at first but after the initial launch would die down considerably.

Moderators are often slow to act and have very little incentive to clean up everyone's marketplace threads. This was in fact part of the reason it was implemented in the first place to allow users to police their own sales threads and free up moderators for more pressing matters. You don't see a ton of people advocating for this feature BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE IT. What would be the point of being like "OH HEY I just wanted to make a post voicing my support for the existing system we already have! its great thank you!" /end thread. ?

I don't have time to do your research for you sorry. Just take my word this has been discussed over and over and over again. Or don't and actually spend the time yourself to dig those threads up. I have no reason to lie about this. This has been a debate since day one of self moderated threads and even before in some contexts. Removing self moderated/locked threads is not going to get rid of fraudulent gift cards or other fraud. It existed before self moderated threads and it will continue to exist no matter what features you strip from the contributing members of this forum.

This hasn't just "been how it always has been", I was around before self moderated and locked topics and market place, and it sucked having to constantly beg moderators who often don't give a fuck about your ability to make a sale ignore your reports perpetually and having every thread shit on with people either posting their own products for sale, trolling, trying to brow beat the price down, or saying stupid shit like "oh Wallmart has it cheaper here "LINK". Nothing is stopping you from negative rating abusers of these features or making threads in scam accusations.

Pretty much, I'd say 99% of newbie sellers using a locked self moderated thread to "sell" stuff are scammers.

And for those defending locked threads in the digital goods section how about posting some here that are not scam threads. I'll be waiting.

I wouldn't be completely opposed to restricting self moderated/locked threads in marketplace for newbies only. It doesn't take very long to rank up. The problem is then they will just rank up and continue anyways so... just basically a slightly higher barrier of entry.

But it will make it a lot harder for them, good discussion here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2929216.0

That's because you are now in a time and era of this forum where the majority of the new accounts getting created are just the same old scammers recycling the same old concept.

If you have a problem with a self mod thread then open a scam accusation. There is and should be no excuse for laziness.

I come from a time on this forum where the majority of newbie accounts were real.

And you're talking about 99%? How about those 1%? You're essentially asking for cockblocking genuine people, those same people might just turn around and make bitcoingarden their home - and really get fucked there or head to Bitcoinpub.

I was a newbie when I tried to sell my gift cards and mostly all users who posted on the thread derailed my thread and asked me to sell my genuine gift cards at a huge discount as they were getting carded gift cards for that rate. To stop all these unnecessary demotivating comments, I made all my threads self-moderated ones. Example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=928753.5

Whitelisting is just giving privilege to one user and not to the other which is unfair. One forum had such feature for premium members and it was highly unfair to others who have not established themselves on a forum.

None of the comments I reported in my thread were considered off-topic and hence not removed. They troll you to an extent that you feel like giving your product for free. The self-moderated feature is a blessing in disguise for me.

This is exactly my point.

You can end up with one or a hundred posts from someone who is mistaken, but intent on proving you are [insert slander or illogical nonsense here]; and when they are proved wrong;  silence from them and a huge tarnished poop stain left behind on the thread that didn't need to be there in the first place; and that kind of crap may drive people to click away without even seeing after all of those comments was information showing that poster was 100% unfounded/untrue.

A few times I have removed shitposts that seemed on topic;  but like a broken AI was trying to guess as to how to comment on the thread.......   I never regretted any of those deletions, and have never received a PM for it as well.

I really want self-moderate option to be disabled for newbies and Jr. Members only (I'm referring to the marketplace scams at least). There is another reason which I'm not mentioning here.
Because if a newbie/junior account scams and get tagged then they just create another thread in seconds and continues the process every time.

I don't think it will be unfair for them because if they are a genuine trader then they will easily rank up to Member and will get the self-moderation privilege.
If they are honest, do genuine business, earns trust from the community then 11 Merits can be earned in a short time I guess. I think members here will support those genuine traders.

Just sounds like normal life, if you arent known on this forum thats the way its going to be.    Stick around a while, take an interest and do some good business and its not that long a wait I hope.   I do think there isnt enough merits available to good new members who take part in the forum properly.   They have to get like 100 to step upto the next rank?   thats like asking toddlers to hop through giant footsteps, the scale required on that part is probably incorrect but having some process new people must go through is really correct.

The merit sources thing is a little bit too exclusive, thats my view obviously its down to Thermos what his vision is but if he wants all the ranks accessible I think the merit system requires more liquidity.   Maybe loosen it up a little but allow -merit, people would probably love that tbh like its a game :p

  More likely 99.999%.   I have intentionally lost $1 or $2 on a few of those threads just to prove to myself they are scams.  And they were.  Making an official "scam accusation" is fine and good but relatively meaningless.  Digital goods & accounts section users should have extreme limitations to who are allowed locked or self-moderated threads.  It is unfortunate but there are millions of examples in the "real world" of the good having to be inconvenienced due to the activity of a few bad.  IMO it should be # of post limited somehow.  Most scammers aren't going to make 100 shit posts just to be allowed to set up a locked scam for $20.  SURE, there are myriads of ways to get around any limitation but that goes for anything people want to steal or cheat.  Right now it's a free-for-all. 

Just my opinion ... and you know what "they" say about opinions!

Thank you for that looks like I missed the last bump. It seems that these discussions tend to end with the idea of restringing these features to a rank as some feel they're going to be unnecessarily harassed.

Sorry you felt that was a tough go at it to make a sale. I don't see that thread as overly problematic, but I can see how you might have felt that way. The topics in that thread weren't off topic, but some may have been reportable as repetitive or redundant.

Either way it was in rereading this thread, I realize most has been stuck on the self-mod feature. It feels like people feel they are losing a right or something. On that note it seems the happy medium between the 2 camps as being revoking the "privileged" from lower ranked accounts. I thn kany step even a small one should be at least tested. This would deliver a blow to many of the problem threads we see.

No one really seems to be talking about the other feature which I feel is more problematic overall. The ability to lock and unlock a topic. Does anyone have a legitimate case use for this in the Marketplace?

This was part of why I thought whitelisting individuals through an "Application Topic" would be useful. Merited or not a newbie could gain a reputation or show a need for the ability. Whatever the metric is I still feel even a small action might make it more difficult than logging in typing 250 characters or less to lay out the bait and hope to scam someone.

If there were restrictions put in place I have no doubt that there are many members who do patrol or transact in those sections that would merit a good sales thread. There are already a lot that get dispersed in sections like collectibles.


I like this a lot, it at a minimum requires them to put in some effort and time which most aren't interested in doing. They will also be limited by the cooldown period as well at first. Having to earn the privilege to use these features seems like a good compromise.

Locking and unlocking serves a similar purpose as the self moderated topics. Some times threads do not require any commentary from anyone and are intended to be little more than a public notice. I find both are legitimately valuable at times.

Okay, Do you see both as being necessary? Considering they can be seen to serve a similar purpose or be utilized in similar fashion.  Care to weigh in on if you consider them to be a net positive? Individually and combined.

I'm also curious to hear what people think would benefit the Marketplace most if given the choice of removing one of these features.
For me it is the toggling of a locked thread. Taking this away doesn't make the threads disappear, but it does create more work to keep these scammy threads on or near Page 1.

What about the option for them to "archive" the "offending posts", and people on the page will have a button to view the page with archived posts where they were supposed to be;  but with a grey background or something obvious.


Might be a way to let people do what they want, and let the rest see what they don't want you to/have to see.

Ya know... transparency.   *chuckles*

Yes I think they are both necessary and both are a net positive. Removing either of these features would not stop fraud it would just change the tactics. A fool and his money will always be parted.

If the two features serve the same purpose, why not allow only self moderated threads, and not the locking of an active marketplace thread?

The self moderated thread would provide a warning when many posts from many people have been deleted, and the locked thread will not. Sure scammers will adopt to new methods if one is neutralized, but this does not mean known methods should not be neutralized if it would not harm any one acting legitimately.

1. Similar /= Same
2. I explained the difference between the two above.
3. You can strip useful features for legitimate users all day and all that will result is less features and the fraud will continue as it always has. Removing features just because you personally do not find them useful is not a solution and will ONLY ultimately result in detriment to the legitimate user base.

You should not try to hyper regulate the marketplace, but some regulations can be good if the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks, and they do not unnecessarily restrict freedoms.

The two features are different, but they serve a similar purpose. In reality most using a transnational thread are not going to have the ability to do anything they could not previously do if the ability to have an active locked transaction thread is removed.

Your explanation for the need (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5146784.msg51218494#msg51218494) to keep the ability to have an active locked transaction thread is that no commentary is needed, and the threads purpose is to only serve as a notice to others. A user can achieve the same result via a self moderated thread with a note to not reply to the thread, and deleting any replies they get. Frankly, I have seen very few "public notice" threads, and I cannot recall the last one I have seen.

You should care about the integrity of the marketplace because if it is perceived to lack integrity, any reputation you have earned becomes worthless, and some people who might have traded with you could decide to not trade at all because they observed many other bad experiences.   

I have been using this forum just about 100 times longer than you have. Do you think I might have some insight here you do not? The result is not the same because it requires constant monitoring and post removal to achieve the same effect, therefore it does not in fact achieve the same result. Just because you don't see it or don't use it doesn't mean other users don't find it useful. Your lofty and ill defined "perceived lack of integrity" is just a creation of your own mind with no observable metric with which to even measure. Again having been trading here for nearly a decade I think I just might have some idea what I am talking about here.

How many people would you say have used how many locked threads to only "serve as a notice" to others in the past 6 months?

How many times have you been to the hospital in the past 6 months? Fuck I guess we can get rid of hospitals...

Stop trying to pass the cost of dumb shit lazy new users not doing due diligence onto the legitimate user base by stripping useful features. It is lazy, myopic, and will solve nothing.

I would not equate using the ability to keep an active thread locked to a hospital. Even if I was, I have not been to a hospital in the last 6 months, but many other people have. Likewise, I am not asking how many times you have used this feature, I am asking how many times anyone has used this feature in the last 6 months.

If 6 months is too short a timeframe, how many people would you estimate has ever used this feature for your stated purpose?

I am merely trying to gauge the cost of removing this feature. If there is some "observable metric" that shows the cost would be high, I would gladly admit my idea is not a good one.

I think no newbie should be able to lock a marketplace thread.

I don’t mind modded threads. Even by newbies.

This is my opinion on marketplace threads.

Other threads other opinions.