Let's finally remove Locked and Self Mod topics from the Marketplace

[TECSHARE]

This has been discussed adnauseum. You aren't the first one to think this is just an oh so simple fix. It is not. Just because you personally don't have a valid use for locked and self moderated topics doesn't mean they should be removed. Its like saying well since I own a car we don't need sidewalks because I can drive everywhere, and fuck everyone who walks or rides a bike. I don't know if you noticed, but this place is full of trolls and the mods are not always snappy to take action (if they even care to). Self moderated and locked topics serve the purpose of allowing people to have simple sales threads uninterrupted by trolls and bored morons.

One common example is any time you list a gift card, even at cost, there are always 100 cunts demanding you sell it under cost because there are 500 people selling stolen gift cards and they think that is the going rate. This is just one example. These features were put there for a reason. You need to find another solution to these issues other than just stripping features one by one because you personally don't find them useful.

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[PrimeNumber7]

I understand why someone might want to use a self moderated thread to stop trolls from harassing you. This will usually be one or two people and this would be clear to someone looking at the deletion counter. If I see that 30 posts from even 2-3 people were deleted, I would write this off as being harassed by a few trolls after doing a little research to confirm there are no scam accusations unresolved.

I would welcome your enlightenment if you explained why you believe a locked, self moderated thread would be a good way to handle a sales thread.

[Sharon121212]

From this thread where theymos brought up the self moderated topic option

In most sections, you now have the option of marking topics self-moderated when creating them. In self-moderated topics, the OP can delete replies. The option for enabling this is under "additional options". Topics cannot be converted to self-moderated topics after creation.

There are no rules to self-moderation. In self-moderated threads, replies belong to the OP. In other threads, replies belong to the respondents individually. Think carefully about whether you want to reply to a self-moderated topic, as your post may not be given due respect.

Tell me if there are any bugs. If this ends up not working out well, I might remove it.

Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152876.0

You would say it was to was to effect positively the reply a post that is self moderated can get. But IMO(stand to be corrected) I don't think at that scam and fraud on the part of the OP was in major consideration.  It was just to create a healthy thread for the OP who has the ultimate power in the thread.
As the forum was then is not the same as it is now. We get to see more members with scam intentions and that option is like giving them a leverage to carry out there activities.
Although the intents of the self moderated topic option is good, If it can be looked into and some little changes made in some areas. Then it would be very much guided

[akamit]

I don’t like self moderated topics anywhere. They’re open to manipulation & dishonesty.

I know there are situations where it can be seen as a positive to have them but if it was up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I’d do away with them altogether.

Just a personal preference, don’t shoot the messenger

I always make sales threads with self-moderation enabled because of three reasons mainly,

• Prevent sales trash
• Prevent spam & shitposting for the sake of sig
• Prevent others to promote his/her products/services in my threads

It's not to manipulate or because of dishonesty, I always make OP as transparent as possible, even after that someone gets an issue then they are always welcome to create a thread against me in rep board (if I have deleted anyone's post from my threads for trying to manipulate or for being dishonest).

For example, yesterday someone posted to promote his service in my thread and I have deleted that right away.

I'm posting this to say that self-moderated option is needed in every board for any reason, but what I don't like about this option to be available for newbies and jr.members.
They really don't have anything to lose. If their account gets tagged then they will create a new one with no time and will start scamming again or do whatever their bad intention is.

[Sutters Mill]

I'm in no way denying the benefits that people may find in using these threads, I just think it's a small number within the marketplace. I also am not expecting Mods to begin identifying and fighting scams. I decided to look at it this way, Are they a net positive in the Marketplace?

Probably a net negative imho if we're talking just the marketplace. It seems to be used majorly by scammers in there. Maybe admins should look at other alternatives. What about only certain ranks can self-moderate threads in the marketplace??? Is there any reason to allow brand new Newbie Members to be able to do so especially when most of them are scammers??? I don't think that would be huge inconvenience to new users and I'd say the majority of new users utilizing the feature will just be scammers in the first place. Maybe make users earn the right to self-moderation??? Perhaps make it so you have to be a Member and up. Not so easy to get your account to Member status but anyone can create a new disposable Newbie account which they will abandon if it gets red tagged. Scammers may be less inclined to waste their precious Member accounts and the ten merit it takes to be one.
 

Self mod topics have been historically effective at curbing shitposts - at least on my threads. So I don't agree with your message messenger. If you were in Sparta, you'd be at the bottom of a well now 

We’re not in Sparta though are we. We’re adult males living in the present day, not some fantasy film shit.

Sparta was real.

Not all of us here are males.

That film was no shit.

Not all of us are adults.

Sparta may have been real but that film was mostly fantasy.

[Steamtyme]

So another way of giving SOME users an advantage over the others like DT and most merited members? Why? Other members have no right to use the marketplace of bitcointalk and prevent spam?

Maybe you think or see a ton of threads I miss where legit users are in need of this feature. Feel free to point them out. The point of this topic was not to dismiss the idea, but bring the discussion centered around this point to one place for review and discussion. Who's to say getting whitelisted wouldn't be a painless process, is the unknown of how the system rolls out enough reason to discredit it before it's trialed?

Moderators don't remove posts that appear "harassing", "trolling", "personal attacks" and so on. Even doxxing is allow and only SPAM posts are deleted so no point of the @bold.

They do remove off-topic. Most are also smart enough to distinguish when someone is only attempting to appear on-topic.

The scamming problem is a problem the DT members deal with. If you find anything fishy, report to them.

Not going to go to deep into DT as that tends to derail a discussion. The problem there is it's a rotating system, or is designed to become one. In this case you might need to encourage the multiple tags, or continuously seek a new DT to tag an account if the last one is no longer on the list. Again not a solution just a band-aid.

This has been discussed adnauseum. You aren't the first one to think this is just an oh so simple fix.

Feel free to point me to any of the threads that had an indepth discussion about this, and reasoning behind the decision to keep it in place. I looked and couldn't find it. I never stated that I recently had the most original thought and simplest of fixes. I don't get the comparison to sidewalks maybe that works for some but I think we can find enough examples within the marketplace to have this discussion like below.

One common example is any time you list a gift card, even at cost, there are always 100 cunts demanding you sell it under cost because there are 500 people selling stolen gift cards and they think that is the going rate. This is just one example. These features were put there for a reason. You need to find another solution to these issues other than just stripping features one by one because you personally don't find them useful.

You're right so again for this person who wants to sell their giftcard. Might be helpful if these "cunts" didn't have 500 locked/selfMod topics to compare against for a price cut. That might be more helpful for that person as opposed to lumping them in the same group and forcing them to hide in one of these topics, cutting off open communication with legit buyers to avoid the trolls.

Again I would see this as a case to be made for it being a feature that one could be whitelisted for.

So for anyone opposed to this feel free to bring your ideas to the table. This is a discussion and I welcome all opinions and input, I just don't feel the "That's how it's always been" to be a compelling reason to not try or explore other options.

I always make sales threads with self-moderation enabled because of three reasons mainly,
~snip~

And given your history and use of the system you would be someone that would look to be whitelisted. I envision a pinned topic where people can post seeking to be whitelisted, might be congested at first but after the initial launch would die down considerably.

[TECSHARE]

So another way of giving SOME users an advantage over the others like DT and most merited members? Why? Other members have no right to use the marketplace of bitcointalk and prevent spam?

Maybe you think or see a ton of threads I miss where legit users are in need of this feature. Feel free to point them out. The point of this topic was not to dismiss the idea, but bring the discussion centered around this point to one place for review and discussion. Who's to say getting whitelisted wouldn't be a painless process, is the unknown of how the system rolls out enough reason to discredit it before it's trialed?

Moderators don't remove posts that appear "harassing", "trolling", "personal attacks" and so on. Even doxxing is allow and only SPAM posts are deleted so no point of the @bold.

They do remove off-topic. Most are also smart enough to distinguish when someone is only attempting to appear on-topic.

The scamming problem is a problem the DT members deal with. If you find anything fishy, report to them.

Not going to go to deep into DT as that tends to derail a discussion. The problem there is it's a rotating system, or is designed to become one. In this case you might need to encourage the multiple tags, or continuously seek a new DT to tag an account if the last one is no longer on the list. Again not a solution just a band-aid.

This has been discussed adnauseum. You aren't the first one to think this is just an oh so simple fix.

Feel free to point me to any of the threads that had an indepth discussion about this, and reasoning behind the decision to keep it in place. I looked and couldn't find it. I never stated that I recently had the most original thought and simplest of fixes. I don't get the comparison to sidewalks maybe that works for some but I think we can find enough examples within the marketplace to have this discussion like below.

One common example is any time you list a gift card, even at cost, there are always 100 cunts demanding you sell it under cost because there are 500 people selling stolen gift cards and they think that is the going rate. This is just one example. These features were put there for a reason. You need to find another solution to these issues other than just stripping features one by one because you personally don't find them useful.

You're right so again for this person who wants to sell their giftcard. Might be helpful if these "cunts" didn't have 500 locked/selfMod topics to compare against for a price cut. That might be more helpful for that person as opposed to lumping them in the same group and forcing them to hide in one of these topics, cutting off open communication with legit buyers to avoid the trolls.

Again I would see this as a case to be made for it being a feature that one could be whitelisted for.

So for anyone opposed to this feel free to bring your ideas to the table. This is a discussion and I welcome all opinions and input, I just don't feel the "That's how it's always been" to be a compelling reason to not try or explore other options.

I always make sales threads with self-moderation enabled because of three reasons mainly,
~snip~

And given your history and use of the system you would be someone that would look to be whitelisted. I envision a pinned topic where people can post seeking to be whitelisted, might be congested at first but after the initial launch would die down considerably.

Moderators are often slow to act and have very little incentive to clean up everyone's marketplace threads. This was in fact part of the reason it was implemented in the first place to allow users to police their own sales threads and free up moderators for more pressing matters. You don't see a ton of people advocating for this feature BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE IT. What would be the point of being like "OH HEY I just wanted to make a post voicing my support for the existing system we already have! its great thank you!" /end thread. ?

I don't have time to do your research for you sorry. Just take my word this has been discussed over and over and over again. Or don't and actually spend the time yourself to dig those threads up. I have no reason to lie about this. This has been a debate since day one of self moderated threads and even before in some contexts. Removing self moderated/locked threads is not going to get rid of fraudulent gift cards or other fraud. It existed before self moderated threads and it will continue to exist no matter what features you strip from the contributing members of this forum.

This hasn't just "been how it always has been", I was around before self moderated and locked topics and market place, and it sucked having to constantly beg moderators who often don't give a fuck about your ability to make a sale ignore your reports perpetually and having every thread shit on with people either posting their own products for sale, trolling, trying to brow beat the price down, or saying stupid shit like "oh Wallmart has it cheaper here "LINK". Nothing is stopping you from negative rating abusers of these features or making threads in scam accusations.

[bolinao]

So anyone below a certain rank is automatically a scammer.

Got it.

Pretty much, I'd say 99% of newbie sellers using a locked self moderated thread to "sell" stuff are scammers.

And for those defending locked threads in the digital goods section how about posting some here that are not scam threads. I'll be waiting.

[TECSHARE]

So anyone below a certain rank is automatically a scammer.

Got it.

Pretty much, I'd say 99% of newbie sellers using a locked self moderated thread to "sell" stuff are scammers.

And for those defending locked threads in the digital goods section how about posting some here that are not scam threads. I'll be waiting.

I wouldn't be completely opposed to restricting self moderated/locked threads in marketplace for newbies only. It doesn't take very long to rank up. The problem is then they will just rank up and continue anyways so... just basically a slightly higher barrier of entry.

[bolinao]

I wouldn't be completely opposed to restricting self moderated/locked threads in marketplace for newbies only. It doesn't take very long to rank up. The problem is then they will just rank up and continue anyways so... just basically a slightly higher barrier of entry.

But it will make it a lot harder for them, good discussion here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2929216.0

[legendster]

So anyone below a certain rank is automatically a scammer.

Got it.

Pretty much, I'd say 99% of newbie sellers using a locked self moderated thread to "sell" stuff are scammers.

And for those defending locked threads in the digital goods section how about posting some here that are not scam threads. I'll be waiting.

That's because you are now in a time and era of this forum where the majority of the new accounts getting created are just the same old scammers recycling the same old concept.

If you have a problem with a self mod thread then open a scam accusation. There is and should be no excuse for laziness.

I come from a time on this forum where the majority of newbie accounts were real.

And you're talking about 99%? How about those 1%? You're essentially asking for cockblocking genuine people, those same people might just turn around and make bitcoingarden their home - and really get fucked there or head to Bitcoinpub.

[erikalui]

Maybe you think or see a ton of threads I miss where legit users are in need of this feature. Feel free to point them out. The point of this topic was not to dismiss the idea, but bring the discussion centered around this point to one place for review and discussion. Who's to say getting whitelisted wouldn't be a painless process, is the unknown of how the system rolls out enough reason to discredit it before it's trialed?

I was a newbie when I tried to sell my gift cards and mostly all users who posted on the thread derailed my thread and asked me to sell my genuine gift cards at a huge discount as they were getting carded gift cards for that rate. To stop all these unnecessary demotivating comments, I made all my threads self-moderated ones. Example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=928753.5

Whitelisting is just giving privilege to one user and not to the other which is unfair. One forum had such feature for premium members and it was highly unfair to others who have not established themselves on a forum.

They do remove off-topic. Most are also smart enough to distinguish when someone is only attempting to appear on-topic.

None of the comments I reported in my thread were considered off-topic and hence not removed. They troll you to an extent that you feel like giving your product for free. The self-moderated feature is a blessing in disguise for me.

[JaredKaragen]

Maybe you think or see a ton of threads I miss where legit users are in need of this feature. Feel free to point them out. The point of this topic was not to dismiss the idea, but bring the discussion centered around this point to one place for review and discussion. Who's to say getting whitelisted wouldn't be a painless process, is the unknown of how the system rolls out enough reason to discredit it before it's trialed?

I was a newbie when I tried to sell my gift cards and mostly all users who posted on the thread derailed my thread and asked me to sell my genuine gift cards at a huge discount as they were getting carded gift cards for that rate. To stop all these unnecessary demotivating comments, I made all my threads self-moderated ones. Example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=928753.5

Whitelisting is just giving privilege to one user and not to the other which is unfair. One forum had such feature for premium members and it was highly unfair to others who have not established themselves on a forum.

They do remove off-topic. Most are also smart enough to distinguish when someone is only attempting to appear on-topic.

None of the comments I reported in my thread were considered off-topic and hence not removed. They troll you to an extent that you feel like giving your product for free. The self-moderated feature is a blessing in disguise for me.

This is exactly my point.

You can end up with one or a hundred posts from someone who is mistaken, but intent on proving you are [insert slander or illogical nonsense here]; and when they are proved wrong;  silence from them and a huge tarnished poop stain left behind on the thread that didn't need to be there in the first place; and that kind of crap may drive people to click away without even seeing after all of those comments was information showing that poster was 100% unfounded/untrue.

A few times I have removed shitposts that seemed on topic;  but like a broken AI was trying to guess as to how to comment on the thread.......   I never regretted any of those deletions, and have never received a PM for it as well.

[akamit]

Whitelisting is just giving privilege to one user and not to the other which is unfair.

I really want self-moderate option to be disabled for newbies and Jr. Members only (I'm referring to the marketplace scams at least). There is another reason which I'm not mentioning here.
Because if a newbie/junior account scams and get tagged then they just create another thread in seconds and continues the process every time.

I don't think it will be unfair for them because if they are a genuine trader then they will easily rank up to Member and will get the self-moderation privilege.
If they are honest, do genuine business, earns trust from the community then 11 Merits can be earned in a short time I guess. I think members here will support those genuine traders.

[STT]

it was highly unfair to others who have not established themselves on a forum.

Just sounds like normal life, if you arent known on this forum thats the way its going to be.    Stick around a while, take an interest and do some good business and its not that long a wait I hope.   I do think there isnt enough merits available to good new members who take part in the forum properly.   They have to get like 100 to step upto the next rank?   thats like asking toddlers to hop through giant footsteps, the scale required on that part is probably incorrect but having some process new people must go through is really correct.

The merit sources thing is a little bit too exclusive, thats my view obviously its down to Thermos what his vision is but if he wants all the ranks accessible I think the merit system requires more liquidity.   Maybe loosen it up a little but allow -merit, people would probably love that tbh like its a game :p

[sandy-is-fine]

So anyone below a certain rank is automatically a scammer.

Got it.

Pretty much, I'd say 99% of newbie sellers using a locked self moderated thread to "sell" stuff are scammers.

And for those defending locked threads in the digital goods section how about posting some here that are not scam threads. I'll be waiting.

  More likely 99.999%.   I have intentionally lost $1 or $2 on a few of those threads just to prove to myself they are scams.  And they were.  Making an official "scam accusation" is fine and good but relatively meaningless.  Digital goods & accounts section users should have extreme limitations to who are allowed locked or self-moderated threads.  It is unfortunate but there are millions of examples in the "real world" of the good having to be inconvenienced due to the activity of a few bad.  IMO it should be # of post limited somehow.  Most scammers aren't going to make 100 shit posts just to be allowed to set up a locked scam for $20.  SURE, there are myriads of ways to get around any limitation but that goes for anything people want to steal or cheat.  Right now it's a free-for-all. 

Just my opinion ... and you know what "they" say about opinions!

[Steamtyme]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2929216.0 ~snip~

Thank you for that looks like I missed the last bump. It seems that these discussions tend to end with the idea of restringing these features to a rank as some feel they're going to be unnecessarily harassed.

I was a newbie when I tried to sell my gift cards and mostly all users who posted on the thread derailed my thread and asked me to sell my genuine gift cards at a huge discount as they were getting carded gift cards for that rate. To stop all these unnecessary demotivating comments, I made all my threads self-moderated ones. Example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=928753.5
None of the comments I reported in my thread were considered off-topic and hence not removed. They troll you to an extent that you feel like giving your product for free. The self-moderated feature is a blessing in disguise for me.

Sorry you felt that was a tough go at it to make a sale. I don't see that thread as overly problematic, but I can see how you might have felt that way. The topics in that thread weren't off topic, but some may have been reportable as repetitive or redundant.

Either way it was in rereading this thread, I realize most has been stuck on the self-mod feature. It feels like people feel they are losing a right or something. On that note it seems the happy medium between the 2 camps as being revoking the "privileged" from lower ranked accounts. I thn kany step even a small one should be at least tested. This would deliver a blow to many of the problem threads we see.

No one really seems to be talking about the other feature which I feel is more problematic overall. The ability to lock and unlock a topic. Does anyone have a legitimate case use for this in the Marketplace?

~snip~   They have to get like 100 to step upto the next rank?   thats like asking toddlers to hop through giant footsteps, the scale required on that part is probably incorrect but having some process new people must go through is really correct.

This was part of why I thought whitelisting individuals through an "Application Topic" would be useful. Merited or not a newbie could gain a reputation or show a need for the ability. Whatever the metric is I still feel even a small action might make it more difficult than logging in typing 250 characters or less to lay out the bait and hope to scam someone.

~snip~
I don't think it will be unfair for them because if they are a genuine trader then they will easily rank up to Member and will get the self-moderation privilege.
If they are honest, do genuine business, earns trust from the community then 11 Merits can be earned in a short time I guess. I think members here will support those genuine traders.

If there were restrictions put in place I have no doubt that there are many members who do patrol or transact in those sections that would merit a good sales thread. There are already a lot that get dispersed in sections like collectibles.

~snip~  It is unfortunate but there are millions of examples in the "real world" of the good having to be inconvenienced due to the activity of a few bad.  IMO it should be # of post limited somehow.  Most scammers aren't going to make 100 shit posts just to be allowed to set up a locked scam for $20.~snip~

I like this a lot, it at a minimum requires them to put in some effort and time which most aren't interested in doing. They will also be limited by the cooldown period as well at first. Having to earn the privilege to use these features seems like a good compromise.

[TECSHARE]

Locking and unlocking serves a similar purpose as the self moderated topics. Some times threads do not require any commentary from anyone and are intended to be little more than a public notice. I find both are legitimately valuable at times.

[Steamtyme]

Okay, Do you see both as being necessary? Considering they can be seen to serve a similar purpose or be utilized in similar fashion.  Care to weigh in on if you consider them to be a net positive? Individually and combined.

I'm also curious to hear what people think would benefit the Marketplace most if given the choice of removing one of these features.
For me it is the toggling of a locked thread. Taking this away doesn't make the threads disappear, but it does create more work to keep these scammy threads on or near Page 1.

[JaredKaragen]

What about the option for them to "archive" the "offending posts", and people on the page will have a button to view the page with archived posts where they were supposed to be;  but with a grey background or something obvious.


Might be a way to let people do what they want, and let the rest see what they don't want you to/have to see.

Ya know... transparency.   *chuckles*