Bitcoin Forum

It is prohibited to use these services in their ToS, and so how can I avoid being found selling btc with them? I know about chargebacks and so, but I am interested about how people get banned(and how to escape it) in these platforms, though in case someone makes chargeback against you, administration can learn that you sell btc. Maybe you have a story to tell?

Only things I can think of is telling your buyer not to send additional message with transfer and do as few trades as you can on account, but I need your advice.

So you're the one selling BTC? Isn't it risky for you as you are the one making an irreversible payment? Do you have any successful deal in the past? What payment gateway you used?

As for me, if you really want to avoid their terms, then refrain using them and start thinking of an alternative. Maybe used a crypto exchange with fiat deposit feature or just stick with your regular customers so you will be sure that somehow no reports of chargebacks against you. Meetups would be nice but only for small amounts and just around your local.


It will work but still, it can't guarantee you that it won't give you a problem someday.

That's pretty much it. If no description is left on the transaction, there is no way they could know what the transactions are about. If you're going to deal with large amounts frequently though, then you may want to rethink about using these payment methods.

I'm not sure about Skrill and Neteller tho, because I've seen multiple exchange platforms using them, pretty sure they wouldn't risk their merchant accounts If it was against the TOS. I've used Paybis for instance, multiple times and I didn't have any issues on Skrill so far.

Just try to do transactions related to cryptocurrency as minimally as possible. The best thing you can really do is just to leave messages blank and don't say anything in transfers if you're doing things via PayPal transfer via either Goods and Services or Friends and Family, but at the end of the day it's really not ideal to buy or sell BTC with PayPal as it's extremely easy for people to chargeback. Your account can also potentially be limited if the funds you're receiving are obtained fraudulently with PayPal.

Don't act like a red alarm, be quiet just like regular user. Personally I have never had problem with skrill: https://www.skrill.com/transfer-money/skrill-cryptocurrency/
Can't say anything about neteller because I have never used them but have done some btc/paypal exchanges regularly and never had any problem. You have to find someone whom you'll trust in such situation and believe that that person won't use chargeback option and will be fair with you. That's why it's usually hard for newbies to exchange their paypal funds in bitcoin.

Concerning their ToS about them not allowing or being against cryptocurrency transactions, you're pretty much fine if you don't trade PayPal <-> crypto like every hour or so. I've been trading PayPal <-> crypto through big traders outside Bitcointalk for a while already, and I'm pretty much fine. If you get caught, I don't think it's unbannable, but as far as I know they'd still let you access your PayPal funds(but you'd need to withdraw the funds to your bank account).

Concerning chargebacks, all you can do is to trade with reputable sellers/buyers if you're the one selling the coins. That's pretty much all you can do.

I'm beginner trader on paxful, I've had successful trades for low amounts already, and I don't have buyers which I can trust totally. But deals were all successful nevertheless

There are already some methods(and good platforms like bisq) which are very good for sellers because of their irreversability and other factors, but unfortunately people don't use them often. Honestly majority of buyers prefer to use only worst payment methods like paypal, and centralized exchanges, which impose a lot of restrictions and drawbacks.

If the one buying btc from you by any chance mentions crypto/btc related term in the note, your account can be frozen. This happened with many people who dealt on localbitcoins who mentioned crypto trade to be on a safe side but the account got frozen. My Skrill account was frozen for the same reason but they reopened it giving me a warning.

Avoiding anything related to crypto science while writing the remarks of payment will keep you secure but when you want to report something about your transaction you maybe asked why you did traction in which case you will get caught that is why you always have to deal with trusted person.

definitely use neteller and skrill is the worst choice anyone can make, they give you no warning and they don't allow you to withdraw your funds from the account ... they immediately lock your account and ask you for a lot of documents so that the person can reactivate the account again . in my case it was a big headache that I had with neteller and skril and see that I only used it once a week and it was very small values and everything was cool and I didn't break TOS from them and my account was verified for years but they blocked my account and still asked me for my bank statements in English, asked for proof of income, passport and proof of residence

It's possible these services are exchanging information about their users, maybe with any of the custodial cryptocurrency services asking for KYC.


Don't they prevent you from withdrawing your coins if you buy or deposit it with them?

That's correct[1]. You are only allowed to sell the coins back to them. I don't see any reason to use their crypto services.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/azv5pz/do_not_use_skrillcom_for_exchanging_bitcoin_they/

If there is a particular significance for your Paypal, then I wouldn't even recommend you using it for transactions related to crypto.

There's absolutely no doubt that their ToS is extremely anti-crypto and draconian, but at the end of the day it's up to them to set those standards and enforce them - not us. And if you're using your paypal for your business and can't risk a ban or limit, then just don't use it.

But from what I've heard/experienced there are several risk factors:

a)size of transaction, keep it small
b)sending as F&F often could lead to your account getting flagged, people suggest because of Paypal not earning fees
c)keeping a large balance. There is a $1k AUD Limit on the Australian paypal site before you are forced to get verified, not sure about the rest of the world.

I'm not very knowledgeable about the other 2 payment options, but from personal experience I've just found that when you use PayPal, you just need to avoid mentioning anything related to cryptocurrencies, and just send all payments as friends or family - this sucks because if you get scammed, there's no real way for you to get your money back (because if you mention cryptocurrency, they will basically just ignore your claim). There's also limits to size of transactions which may cause your account to be limited, personally, I cap myself at 500 USD per paypal transaction, and I've never had issues.

For skrill and neteller, from the look of this thread, I wouldn't recommend. Paypal definitely seems to be the popular option here.

I agree with you for PayPal, from what I've seen theres a 1,000 USD limit on transactions (so after you have more then 1,000 in your paypal balance, your account gets locked and you need to have ID before your able to use the account again), pretty easy to avoid, just make sure you spend/withdraw money from your PayPal.

Neteller is a no for me. Accounts randomally getting restricted, transactions getting stuck, shitty support - not sure why anyone would ever use that service.

Skrill, no idea, haven't used it before.

Guys, you realize it's not only about avoiding a block on Paypal etc, but also related to the crypto trading right?

OP, have you checked Transferwise? It seems they don't have any limit on the type of transactions. They just stated that they don't support sending cryptocurrency directly or indirectly, but it's still ambiguous.

With Paypal, even if the sender sends as 'friends&family' there are still 2 methods to make the chargeback.

@Kyraishi

I have been using Paypal since 2006, and I have already made several transfers (in or out) with 4 digit numbers, I have never had any problems like that. The only times they ask me to send my ID card (again, since I'm verified) is because they apply a directive from EU about AML. When we received +$2500 the same year, we need to provide our ID card,(only EU users ofc.).

And I find it stupid because every year, my name and my DOB are the same. ::)

@elda34b

TransferWise is out of the question, as PP it doesn't allow anything related to cryptos

I have tried using skrill, that is our medium of transaction when I trade my little amount of bitcoin in my friend from other country he uses it to send me the traded amound, I got a problem with my withdraw but their customer services is quite good! They assisted me throughout the process. I think they aren't phobited selling bitcoin? Because that is your source of fund. Maybe you can say that you gain your money thru online trading? You don't need to tell everything, because if you willl? You will be more suspicious.

I'm pretty sure Skrill doesn't prohibit crypto-related transactions on their platform because they actually allow you to add funds to your Skrill account using Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash according to their own FAQ (click for link (https://support.skrill.com/PAYMENTS/Deposits/1059769412/How-do-I-use-Bitcoin-and-Bitcoin-Cash-to-fund-my-Skrill-account.htm)). If you really want to say something about your transaction, just make it short (and don't say anything at all in the case of PayPal).

Since they don't allow you to withdraw cryptocurrencies as far as I understand, it wouldn't be surprising if they wanted to prevent people from doing crypto-to-skrill exchanges or if they put barriers to bar most of their customers from these kind of trades, because that would mean one party to the transaction could use cryptocurrencies as they see fit, and a lot of these companies are starting to become nosy how people spend their coins.

I recently got my account permanently restricted by Paypal with 1200$ inside, I think it's when your account activity peaks at a moment, and I think it was my fault I received almost 60 payments of the same amount while the activity of my account was very limited before. But what annoys me is that paypal is not at all receptive to explanations from my side and is like "shut up and wait for the 180 days to recover your money"

I sent an email where I threaten them with legal pursuits but I know very well that it is totally useless

That's because you likely have a fully verified account (verified bank account, verified passport, verified address), if you don't have this, they are a pain in the ass with your funds and will often either limit your account, or block the transaction. Pretty stupid tbh.

Yep, but the main issue here is that often crypto trading means a block on paypal. The best way to avoid this is to literally never mention the word crypto to paypal, and if they somehow manage to charge back a friends and family payment, you're screwed.

If PayPal has a very strict policy regarding crypto trading as everyone is saying, why would they allow merchants to have accounts related to crypto in that case? There are multiple reputable exchanges like Coinbase and Virwox that have been dealing with PP/BTC for a few years now and I haven't heard of anyone having his account blocked after using these services.

One doesn't exclude the other, they may trust a company like Coinbase which performs KYC on its users more than some random person/company.

Also, some banks don't allow their users to send money even to Coinbase or Bitstamp.

Bases on my experienced if you trade on unverified account many times, they are going to limit your account, I always make sure to as if they have a veried account before I make a transaction, another thing is using a VPN to access your account, do not log in to your account on unfamiliar device and location, they will ask you for verification if you still own that account, and of course transacting funds beyond your limit is another thing.

I often using paypal to buy / sell bitcoin.
Just sent to your seller/buyer as gift (as Family / Friend).
Don't fill the the message box. Sent!

Just use your real ip, verified account, and maybe withdraw some cash from your paypal 1 - 2 times per month.
So more likely normal person.

The simple way to avoid getting banned is to not do what they disallowed on their platform and for you to accept their TOS means you have signed away your liberty as they can ban you anytime they so wish. If anyone should even give you an approach to break the rule and get away with it, it will only work in a while and you put yourself in more risk because these companies carry out routine audit which they won't inform you of commencement and unfortunately for you, it might be at the time when you are now comfortable, majority of your funds are there, you are closing deals, customers are beginning to trust your services, they will gladly activate their punishment for breaking their rule.

I think it's more related to the fact that you aren't actually using PayPal to sell crypto. The selling crypto to fiat part happens on Coinbase, where after that Coinbase credits your account with whatever the value was of your transaction. All you are doing is basically request a withdrawal of the fiat in your balance to have it be withdrawn to your PayPal account.

Additionally, they might have whitelisted Coinbase's PayPal accounts just so that they aren't flagged falsely.

It's far different from people legit using PayPal to settle crypto (including mining hardware) buys/sales. This is against PayPal's terms and they flat out will block your account for that.

@1Referee

I think different. Coinbase isn't a Paypal customer but a partner so it's a lot different and that's how they get away with Paypal ToS.
Do you remember when it started it was for the US citizens only. If Coinbase was just another customer the feature would be already available in all countries Paypal support.

As for Virwox, it's because people aren't buying bitcoins directly, they're buying Lindens. They then buy bitcoins and it becomes of out Paypal scope

A lot of banks don't like dealing with crypto-currencies, and PayPal's much the same. Pretty risky business to perform crypto trades via it because the buyer protection that is advertised is gone the second you mention BTC.

I'm going to recommend just dealing with Bank transfers, those are irreversible and you won't need to deal with the kyc or charge back bullshit other companies have

Irreversible transactions and banks don't go well together. I can make something up so that the bank is on my side to undo the initial transaction, especially when I say that I got scammed by a crypto company.

Banks generally don't like crypto companies, which means that you have something to exploit here. Miners are quite expensive, especially in larger quantities, so the incentive to pull off a scam is there.

Never underestimate scammers. They will find a way to make it happen as long as the money on the line is worth it. It has been happening outside the crypto world for decades, so why wouldn't it happen here?

Depends on the banking system, often if the funds are cleared, the most the scammer can do is file a police report or contact their bank, and your bank might freeze the money. The banks might ask for evidence from both sides, if neither side provides strong enough evidence then things might have to be settled in court.

see, bank transfer has still advantage
funds maybe get frozen for some time in very rare cases but you have chance to clarify in court
in paypal decides on your money paypal crew
i never can understand how paypal got legally such rights, thats the reason i never dare to hold there more than 100$

 

have same question always, how strict is paypal and skrill policy regarding crypto trading?
really have had no time to read 100 pages A4 of TOS
btw bitcoin is here product  lets say paypal and skrill dont allow BTC trade, then they are illegal here because they offer service
to buy goods online but at same time they dont allow to do that ::)  ironic isnt it

Yes, that was exactly my point, as far as reversible/online legacy fiat payments go, bank transfers are among the safest. With PP, Venmo, neteller and similar you have to raise your prices accordingly because the risk is significantly higher that you'll lose money.

That is true actually, my bad, there where examples of unauthorized transactions at my bank and it was fairly easy for me to get the money back, and only took a couple of weeks.

There's actually no real way I can think of where you are fully secure then, except cash trades and cash deposits, which are 100 percent irreversible, banks really do make things difficult for crypto.

I have friends who got limited, because of using tor, and VPN using VPN is a big no no, and if they found out that you are engaged in buying and selling Crypto currency, you will also get limited, Paypal is monitoring all the activities of their clients, so be aware of this and avoid, breaking their TOS and their rules, so you'll have a good standing in Paypal, I think Skrill and Netteller Implemented the same rule.

I doubt that still works these days.

Another aspect that people forget is that in most cases it's not a direct bank to bank transfer, but more like; your bank to intermediary bank, to possibly another intermediary bank, to the actual destination bank.

I read about an awful lot of complaints locally of people who wired money to an actual scammer, therefore filed a legit scam report, but the bank and the police department usually don't act unless the amounts are crazy high. With that in mind, I wish anyone good luck trying to request a fraudulent charge back or file a scam report.

No bank will cooperate with your fake scam report if they aren't even willing to help you with actual proof. On top of that, who do you think they believe, a multi billion dollar company with tens of thousands of satisfied customers, or you?  ::)

It depends on the country, but if you hire a lawyer and take things to court, chances are the bank will freeze the money, and you'll eventually get it. Of course it has to be a legitimate claim, it won't work if someone's trying to commit chargeback fraud.