Bitcoin Forum

The video explains how Bitcoin turns your ownership into membership, which is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate.

https://youtu.be/dVIXcnbpRMg

Seriously! Other day I saw the same with just a different title.


What is your problem? Same video in another post:

WTF!

If you think your fiat is better than bitcoin then go and give your ass to the FED so that they can put a green dildo in your ass. Or you are getting paid by Ver, Craig and co to spread nonsense about Bitcoin. Get the fuck out of the forum you moron.

It is different video that takes into account points from previous discussion. The points that were misrepresented in the earlier video. Telling the truth is not being moron, but the act of educating people.

So, it is a newly created video.
I hope you will get a lot of views by posting it here. But I doubt that.

The speaker also has not much power to talk. I cannot even feel it.  ;D

Fraudulent schemes?
Come on. You won't even see it in the market if it is proved.
Then why do companies create their own coin which is in the likeness of bitcoin?
Does that mean they are also fraudelent schemes?

She is just talking about physical ownership here and we cannot go that far since it ain't on the question anymore right?

Explaining bitcoin and crypto to a video creator would be like explaining internet to a 70yr old.

Oy vey, bitcoin is a scam, a scheme! C'mon, goy!

I buy Gold and I'm into gold holding association, a golden member of the gold community.
I buy Bitcoin and I'm into bitcoin hodling association, a platinum member of bitcoin community.
You complain and is into critics association, a member in a community who does not appreciate one another.

The video is comparing the different asset classes, namely:

• stocks
• vehicles
• fiat money

The thing is, bitcoin is in a different asset class, hence you really can't conclude that bitcoin is automatically a fraudelent scheme just because bitcoin doesn't posses a certain characteristic these three have. Why? Because these three are assets in a centralized ecosystem. Bitcoin is obviously in a decentralized ecosystem, so obviously it really can't be "backed" by a physical asset because it would completely defeat the purpose of being decentralized.

Oh and also, when you posses the private keys of a bitcoin wallet, you hold the rights to a digital asset that can be used borderlessly, without needing anyone's permission.

And don't get me started on how scammy the current financial system is.

Discussion?
You whole talk is Bank to borrow from FED and then invest into things, make money and then repay the debt to FED.

No FED, no bank then no economy; the world economy gone which means the entire world is living in the mercy of these group of people's wish. Slavery is in your blood. Go and lick the ass of those fat butts.

One thing is right came from you that I thought all the videos are the same and I was wrong. I had to look them all and wasted my precise time in it knowing nothing new.

Companies that create their own coins, that is, digital certificates of membership, and then sell them, engage in fraudulent schemes. All fraudulent schemes are based on turning ownership into membership. Prior to investing into them, you are the holder of ownership certificates. After the investment, you become the holder of membership certificates that grant you zero ownership rights. This is the definition of a scam.

Bitcoin is a certificate of membership that grants you zero ownership rights. Try to disprove this simple sentence.

If you buy gold than you own gold - an actual property. If you would represented this gold with a certificate, then you would hold certificate of ownership. If you would trade this certificate to a bitcoin holder and thus, transfer your ownership rights to this holder, you would become the holder of membership certificate(Bitcoin) that grants you zero ownership rights. Simply put, you would gave your gold as a gift to the Bitcoin holder.

Membership is not an asset. Ownership is an asset. Also, being able or having right to transfer membership doesn't magically turn this membership into ownership.

Aren't we allowed to participate in the market by selling and buying BTC? That's ownership rights. Just like digital cash in forex market, they buy and sell currencies.  

Of course you wouldn't accept any explanation about that. You're not the only person who is confused about BTC. But you can always talk to yourself if nothing that is presented to you won't get into your mind.

Another thread with the same topic just like what i saw on the other thread.
OP, is either paid to post this or trying to get some attention to push their agenda against bitcoin.
It's clear that someone doesn't completely understand what is bitcoin.

Stop it with the "membership" bullshit. You're literally the only critic(besides the video creator, assuming it's not you) I've heard that's criticism is that "bitcoin is membership" or something. If you think digital asset  = membership then I don't know what to say. Seriously critics are getting worse and worse by the daily; and I thought Nouriel Roubini was bad.

Same thing with bitcoin, it's an actual property, it's just not backed by something physical.

antikvark, if you want a serious discussion about that topic, please respond to the arguments I made in the other thread in this post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5216248.msg53605524#msg53605524) and this other answer (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5216248.msg53607845#msg53607845).

To summarize these posts in a short paragraph, if you're too lazy to read the posts: Bitcoin isn't a fraud because it does not promise any return. A Bitcoin bull may be a fraudster if he promises you a return, but this bull isn't Bitcoin. Bitcoin works perfectly with a stable price where no additional influx of money is necessary, so contrary to ponzis and pyramid schemes it won't collapse (Arguments are thoroughly explained in the other posts).

An act of giving one thing and receiving another in return is called exchange, and not ownership. Sure you can exchange your membership certificates. That's the whole point of bitcoin scam - to exchange membership for ownership. That's how scam organizers benefit from it.

Being against Bitcoin means refusing to exchange your ownership for membership. What's wrong with refusing to do something, and explaining reasons behind this? Especially is you see that membership if falsely presented to the public as membership?

The vast majority of people are not exchanging gold for Bitcoin. They are exchanging control over fiat currency (such as USD) for control over Bitcoin.  If control over fiat is "ownership", then it seems to me that control over bitcoin is "ownership" in the same way.

You don't put names on your wallet, its a jibberish alphanumeric wallet and not even linked to someone named with a real name which we can consider a membership. You won't sign your name and fill up a form to own BTC that you can consider then a member. We don't have that. No one organized it which is why its decentralize and worth $8K right now. And governments today accepted it. So much for being scam.

Bitcoin membership is the fact of being a member of a group that gave up their ownership in exchange for digital or paper bitcoin certificates which grant zero ownership rights. Hence, there is no better word for this than membership.

Sure that Bitcoin is a property if a dozen of memory bytes or paper is a property. By certificate I mean paper that verifies the fact that you own property. Gold is property, while a gold certificate is a paper that verifies the existence of this property and displays its quantity and other info.

Gave up their ownership? It's literally just a change of what asset they have ownership in. From the ownership of fiat, to ownership of bitcoin. You could use that "membership" argument with literally almost anything.

That's actually one of the strengths of bitcoin. To prove ownership you don't need a printed piece of paper. Instead, you prove ownership by signing messages using certain addresses, or by making a certain transaction.

It seems you really hate bitcoin, but strangely a bitcoin hater is in the bitcoin forum community, Your place should not be here, I'm sure almost all crypto users know the risks, it is their choice, if you don't like it you can leave because no one will care about your words.

Do you know what is fraudulent here? It is this thing you are doing that is fraudulent.

And you claim to be educating people? Come on, you are the one who needs it. Isn't it obvious?

And talking about ownership, Bitcoin offers it 100%. Of course for as long as you do not save it somewhere else beyond your control such as exchange wallets.

Yes they gave up their ownership. Either of entitlements (rights to non-monetary repayments in the case of FIAT for e.g.) or need-satisfying goods, commodities, etc. After that, they only have membership. This membership grants zero entitlements, it grants zero ownership rights, and the only way they can benefit is if new investor voluntarily transfers his/her ownership to them by entering into the scheme - which is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate.

Regarding the last paragraph, you talk nonsense. As a Bitcoin holder you own nothing. Bitcoin is a certificate that proves membership not ownership. Dollar is a certificate that proves ownership - of rights to non-monetary repayments. A bond is a certificate that proves ownership - of rights to interest (the coupon) and to repayment of the principal at the maturity date. A stock is a certificate that proves ownership - of rights to a share in a company's profitability or liquidation value.  Bitcoin is not such certificate, it proves zero ownership rights. It is just a digital (sometimes paper) certificate of membership in a modern-day fraudulent scheme.

Basically what could happen is that, since bitcoin is providing people with absolute freedome to the market and their own funds, people could choose to either be free or to be like what the member means by OP. You actually have the total control over your private keys and trasactions but turns out to be controlled by the market becauae most of the time, we got influenced by the fear of lossing profit. In the first place you just need to be firm and steady, being affected like this post from OP is one example of being manipulated and lost of freedom if entertained.

Wow,calm down dude.People have different opinions.Maybe the OP isn't a FUDster or BSV supporter.
I wouldn't watch those videos,because I don't think that I will learn something new from the anti-bitcoin theorists.However,we have to respect the opinions of other people,despite the fact,that we disagree with them.

Yes thats correct we have to respect each others decision because we have different perspectives in life and also we have different opinions and knowledge. As a human we often ask questions if we dont know aboit a particular thing and also we are tend to answer questions if we know the answer. Respect is must coz in order for you to be respected by others you also have to respect others.

It doesn't necessarily mean that just because Bitcoin doesn't have physical attribute and doesn't have that certificate of ownership, that makes Bitcoin as a fraudulent scheme. Those assets that were mentioned in the video are a physical asset. And Bitcoin is different from them. Bitcoin can be considered as intangible asset, doesn't have physical substance but a person holding it has a control over it. (Whether he'll use it or store it). It has a value that can bring a future benefit to the holder/owner. It doesn't always have to have a certificate of ownership just to say you own it because Bitcoin is different.

This is not any secret and it is not required to expose. Every bitcoin holders know that physically the bitcoin has no meaning. It is not regulated by a single person or a team. It is well established now and fundamentally there is a huge difference between fiat and bitcoin. In the video you have tried to compare it with Ponzi schemes but Ponzi is not open-source and it is totally regulated a person or team as the members got engaged into the team the total amount of the scheme got rise and only the owner of the company have all the rights on the money. 

I totally agree with you. Bitcoin is providing people with absolute freedom with regards to ownership of their property. Before investing into Bitcoin they were the property owners. After the investment they are the holders of digital membership coins, completely free of any property.

What a lot of rubbish and the video is terrible quality too just like the content.

If you don't like bitcoin go somewhere else.  No one is forcing you to take part it's your own free will and choice.

You can also say that membership card of your local sports club is "intangible asset". But that's just semantics. If membership doesn't grant you specific monetary or non-monetary entitlements, then it is completely worthless, it's just symbolic. Bitcoin is like that. It is a digital membership card that grants you zero entitlements, and as such it is worthless. Calling it asset won't magically change this. An asset is either certificate that grants specific entitlements (rights), be it, bond, stock, Fiat, CFD, future contract, patent,... or tangible good. Membership cards, membership coins, or membership certificates are not assets - they are just means to verify that you are a member of some group or a community.

The video simply proved that Ponzi and Bitcoin operate on the same principle of turning ownership into membership.

If haters can't even distance themselves from Bitcoin because it's too interesting to keep following its progress, you know Bitcoin is doing something right. :)

In the end, most of the people trying to discredit Bitcoin are simply attempting to get the price to drop. They either want to buy lower, or they think they missed a huge opportunity years ago and now they don't want to see others who did buy in early do well. It's not too late to buy today peeps. Nothing sucks more than missing out once again if you don't start accumulating.

USD is a one-way ticket South. Bitcoin is a one-way ticket North. You can choose.

What membership? Do you get a gold membership when you buy gold, or an euro membership when you buy €? Schemes need you to bring others to invest, with bitcoin you don't care if your neighbor gets in or not. It would benefit them, but its their problem if they want or not to buy, and bitcoin certainly doesn't care, it does NOT depend in the inflow of money from people buying it.

Bitcoin price is a simple free market result, it is useful enough to the group of people that own it, because they perceive it so, and that's what truly defines value. This can change at anytime and this is what fluctuation reflects. Over a decade, however, it has been gaining.

It puts Bitcoin in a negative light, all of these are all false, there's nothing secret on Bitcoin on how it is being used it's just tell us that Bitcoin is useless when it is not, the creator of this video is so ignorant, he is creating FUDS his two videos are all against Bitcoin, well what you can expect, you cannot please everybody he is ten years late to destroy Bitcoin.

No, because having a commodity (an actual good) or entitlement to something (non-monetary repayments derived from euro loans) is called ownership. On the other hand, just having a certificate, a card, or a record (paper or digital), without having some actual good or entitlement, is called membership. Of course, the owners of gold and euro can form a club or a community, and name it by the thing they own, but that would just mean they have both the ownership and the membership.


I aggre, Bitcoin price is of simple free market result, but so was the tulip price during the Duch Tulip Mania.

And of course, people don't own Bitcoin. They hold it, as Bitcoin is only a record and not a good or an entitlement.

If telling the truth about Bitcoin puts it in a negative light, then it follows that Bitcoin is a negative thing. And, there's nothing false in the video, as Bitcoin indeed turns ownership into membership, which is how all fraudulent schemes operate.

Bitcoin is not a money system as money systems transfer either goods (commodities) or entitlements. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a system for transferring digital membership certificates. Membership certificates are not money.

Finding ways to put btc price down again, so he'll be able to buy at low price. The normal scheme of some newbie accounts from old crypto or bitcoin users to circulate FUD. Those who don't trust yet bitcoin enough can be fooled by some videos and negative threads but not those who already put their time researching and investing in it.

Screaming FUD every time someone tells the truth about Bitcoin won't make this truth go away.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to your faith or belief in Bitcoin. If you are doubting that this technology will achieve something someday you might end up being swayed by the rise and fall of prices which is being influenced to a certain extent by the whales. But if you are in the belief that Bitcoin is going to be conquering the world of currency, then you will not mind the temporary price fluctuations.

You seem to be using a definition of "money" that is different than most.

Most people would agree that:

Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment. Any item or verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered as money.

Using this, far more common, understanding of money... Bitcoin is a money system.

Yes, money is any item or verifiable record...but record of ownership, and not record of membership. Characters on a membership card of a local soccer club are also "verifiable record", but are not money. Of course everyone is free to view them as money and trade their property for them, but that's irrational as they are worthless. P.S. The video is edited so you can check the new version that has more details.

Nope.  Not verifiable record of ownership.

Any verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular socio-economic context.


It isn't worthless if it is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  All commodities (such as gold) or anything else that has "ownership" are also worthless if nobody is willing to accept them as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  Value is an intrinsically human concept.  If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

Regardless, A Bitcoin private key is proof of "ownership" and not "membership".  It is possible to "own" rights to value, which is what a private key provides.

This is something he has failed to wrap his head around... he just doesn't get it... It's all about human subjectivity. The only reason the FIAT/Gold etc is "valuable" is because of collective human subjectivity, which I mentioned in one of my replies... Once you take that out there is no such thing as "Value".

Verifiable means capable of being proven as true or real.

A record is a series of characters.

The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.

Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.

Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment his/her entire savings into it. But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community. And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder. That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

He doesn't understand that even fiat is also base to its intrinsic value. The amount we put is what we assume to be its price til someone else bids for the new price. 

I don't understand how he got this membership idea but I can only assume he is from an investment scam which is why is is very used to this membership cards.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.

When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property. Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders. In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02. Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders. But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.

If the purpose of Bitcoin was that buyers "benefit" from it simply by hodling it, then it has ponzi-like characteristics.

But that isn't the case. Bitcoin was designed as "peer to peer cash". The ultimate goal of those that follow Satoshi's original principles is that BTC eventually should enter a stable state, where there is no need for "new members" to enter the system, because it's not used for speculation but for trading goods and services, with an independent money circulation taking place in the Bitcoin ecosystem. In this scenario, the Bitcoin price should stay relatively stable.

And here we come to the question of "utility". If we reach the situation where the Bitcoin price is stable, how can people benefit from entering the Bitcoin ecosystem? Simply because it may have characteristics that are superior of other kinds of money. For example, you can simply send money from one country to another. You can get basic privacy (not a perfect one, but better than most non-crypto competitors). You don't depend from single private entities, like with PayPal and friends. And many people do already use Bitcoin to remove their dependancy of the government issued currency of a badly managed country like Venezuela. In the future, we can add that eventually it may become one of the most accepted forms of money. We don't know, but isn't impossible.

;)

Ponzi-like characteristics do not reside in "holding" an instrument. You can "hold" stock or bond certificates (records) but that won't make them ponzi-like. Ponzi-like characteristics reside in the inability of a holder(scheme member) to benefit from his/her instrument unless the new member voluntarily chooses to buy it. Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it. This is because no one is obligated to trade his/her goods or services for bitcoin. On the other hand, in the case of dollars for e.g., borrowers are obligated to repay their loans and thus obligated to trade their goods and services to dollar holders. If they default on these obligations and fail in such trades, the banks will foreclose their property that was pledged as collateral and sell it to dollar holders. This is because the created dollars are the liability of the banks, and they are as such recorded in their balance sheets. To put it differently, dollars are records (digital or paper) that grant their holders the entitlements. The same is true for bonds, or stocks - they grant their holders the entitlements. Bitcoin doesn't grant its holders the entitlements, which is why these holders can benefit only from the entitlements (dollars for e.g.) or need-satisfying goods that are brought by new members. And that's the definition of a ponzi-like scheme.

Only because it is not "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."  The fact that it is not money has nothing to do with whether it is a record of ownership or not.


That "thing" that money is a record of is "value".  It doesn't need to be (and typically isn't) a physical object.  In nearly all modern cases, money is simply a verifiable record of control over value.


FTFY


Not true at all.  That bitcoin can be exchanged with other members of the Bitcoin community for anything else of value.  Bitcoin does not require "new members" at all.


No. There are a lot of different fraudulent schemes.  The one thing they all have in common is that they depend on fraud. That is true regardless of whether the person/people operating the scheme are acquiring bitcoin, USD, gold, silver, real estate, or anything else of value.


Bitcoin doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.


No.  The benefit comes from the fact that it is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."

If you are holding gold (unless you are manufacturing something with it), the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept that gold. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

If you are holding USD, the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept those USD. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.


And when a record is created in order to verify the fact that you have control over something that is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts," we talk about Money.


And when someone hands you a $100 USD bill, this is not because you came into possession of some property either. 


No.  The record is created because you have been given control over some value.


No.  In the beginning, bitcoin didn't have value.  Just like in the beginning gold didn't have value.  Then eventually humans decided that bitcoin was useful and they began to desire it.  This gave it value.  Just like humans eventually decided that gold was useful and they began to desire it, which gave it value.  The most popularly known early transaction was 10,000 BTC for 2 large pizzas.  Assuming an approximate cost of $15 per pizza, this would imply that the early value that humans attributed to bitcoin was $0.003 (not $0.02).


Clearly you fail to understand the basic concepts of supply and demand.


What is certain is that you have strong opinions that don't line up with reality.

Nope! Read my post again, particularly the last part.

If you define that a "benefit" only can occur if there is a price increase, then you're right, then you need new members (or more precisely: more "value" flowing into the system, be it "new" people "buying" BTC, people that already hold BTC "buying" more BTC or people "trading" it for goods and services). But again, my point is: Bitcoin doesn't depend on a price increase.

As I wrote, the goal of Bitcoin is to become "peer-to-peer cash". This can only happen if it enters a period of relatively stable BTC price, and that Bitcoin isn't traded primarily to fiat, but to goods and services. Then a circulation emerges where value is flowing from member to member, like it flows in the current fiat-based economy, or in barter systems, which are the best medium to compare Bitcoin to. In this phase, an increase of the value flowing into the system wouldn't be needed anymore, nor are new members purchasing it.

Where you're right is that nobody can guarantee that this will ever happen, while Fiat provides some guarantees like you correctly state (but look at cases like Venezuela, where fiat is regarded inferior than Bitcoin in it's worst bear markets). This is the risk if you buy Bitcoin today - it may simply fail, because it doesn't have an easily calculable "intrinsic" value.

However, there is also a chance that the "stable period" could happen at much higher prices than today. And that's why people are buying Bitcoin now and speculating to get rich.

There is no need for these red-herring comments. You won't change reality with them. The reality is this. Paper or digital records, such as dollars, bonds and stocks, grant monetary or non-monetary benefits to their holders. They grant interest or divided to their holders when in circulation. And they grant non-monetary repayments,  principal, and liquidation value when their issuers take them out of circulation - dollars when borrowers reply their loans, bonds at maturity date, and stocks when a company goes out of business. Bitcoin grants their holders zero interest or divided when in circulation. Bitcoin is never taken out of circulation by its issuer. So,  Bitcoin is a worthless record in an infinite circulation chain that can provide benefit to it's holders only and only when someone exchanges it for either, the above mentioned benefit providing records, or actual, tangible, goods or services. And this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme dressed up in a new(digital) uniform. That's the reality. You can accept it or you can keep writing red-herring comments.

You keep using this word.  This word does not mean what you seem to think it means.

A Ponzi can not operate if nobody new is recruited.  Its very existence depends on a continuous flow of new participants.

Bitcoin does not need any new participants at all.  The existing participants can pay each other with bitcoin and it will operate just fine.

What's the difference between new participants funding existing participants, and existing participants funding existing participants? There is none. In both cases, participants are not paid by scheme organizers or scheme's economic activity but from funds brought by the participants themselves.

Who are these "scheme organizers"? The devs? The core team? The first investors? There is no such thing in Bitcoin.

The "scheme's economic activity" is exactly what you describe as ...


... because Bitcoin is most similar to a barter community. It works only if it's used. But it doesn't need "new participants" nor growing value flowing in (as you seem to begin to acknowledge ;D ).

Irrelevant points. In the bitcoin scheme, investors are paid from funds that came from the pockets of other bitcoin investors. That's Ponzi-like.

Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins, but pay nothing to bitcoin holders. In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above. In the bitcoin scheme, miners pay nothing to bitcoin holders, which is why these holders can be paid only from funds of other bitcoin investors, like in classical ponzi-like schemes.

and what would be the price to acquire this physical bitcoin? in my case in addition to having to pay the price of the physical bitcoin, I would have to pay the DHL for this physical bitcoin to arrive safely in my country and not take a long time to arrive and I would still have to pay my country's customs and still in my country i would have to pay a fee to take this physical bitcoin, not to mention that in my country it takes hours to be attended when the person is going to take anything from abroad.


titanic member  ;D

THE VAST MAJORITY of people do NOT live in such a messed up country, with such dumb regulations.  So your complaints mean NOTHING to most people here.

VERY DISHONEST trying to infer that your special problems apply to everyone else, they do not...   Most of us know exactly how much an ounce of Physical BitCoin costs, about USD 1550.00....  You trying to say people do not know the price of an ounce of gold is a LIE, and once someone post lies, they lose all credibility.    In the end, what you say above will mean NOTHING when bitcoin goes down in price significantly, you will still lose your money just like everyone else.

I will remind you of this post next year, and see if you are still smiling....

Hard Facts

VERY DISHONEST of YOU trying to imply that there was ANYTHING in his post suggesting that this was a problem for anyone else in any other country.  He simply stated that these were issues that HE had to deal with.




It was YOU who DISHONESTLY suggested that YOUR special solution applies to "Everyone" else, and as you've already pointed out:

In ALL INVESTMENTS, funds are paid from the funds that come from the pockets of other investors.

If you buy gold at $1500 USD per ounce and then later sell it at $1550 USD per ounce...
It doesn't matter that you had "ownership" of that gold.  The fact still remains that your $50 profit per ounce CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.

If you buy land at $4000 USD per acre, and then later sell it at $4400 USD per acre...
It doesn't matter whether you had "ownership" of that land.  The fact still remains that your $400 profit per acre CAME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANOTHER INVESTOR.


Clearly, it isn't.


No. they don't.  They purchase the issued bitcoins (through the cost purchasing and operating the mining equipment), and then they sell the bitcoins to those that want them.


They pay bitcoins to the bitcoin purchasers.  As we've already established, Bitcoins have value.


With gold, the miner of the gold pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the gold. Then pays the gold (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the gold in exchange for local currency.

With Bitcoin, the miner of the Bitcoin pays local currency to acquire mining equipment. Then uses that mining equipment (along with operating costs) to acquire the Bitcoin. Then pays the Bitcoin (which has a value attributed to it by humans) to the purchaser of the Bitcoin in exchange for local currency.

I don't see a difference here.


You keep saying this, but saying it doesn't make it true.  You can say that black is white as many times as you like, it won't change the fact that you are wrong.  None of your examples, or explanations stand up to scrutiny.

That's besides the point. Gold is a commodity, and not record like Bitcoin, fiat, bonds and stocks. So, in the case of gold nobody has to pay anything to gold holder - as this holder already has tangible good. It's like buying a car - you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase a car. But when you invest into some project or paper/digital record, then you expect payment from project organizer or record issuer. In Ponzi, the payment is possible only from funds of other investors. In bitcoin also. And that's the point.

Regarding bitcoin issuers. It doesn't matter who issues bitcoin. What matters is that its holders are not paid by the issuers like in all legitimate investments, but by other bitcoin investors, like in Ponzi schemes.

No.  It isn't.  You want it to be, and you keep claiming that it is, but none of your statements on the matter stand up to scrutiny.  They sound great as a sound bite if you just declare them to be true and then move on hoping that nobody looks too closely, but with even a cursory look into the details of what you're saying the whole opinion falls apart.


Equally, Bitcoin is a digital good. It has value, and as such you don't expect payment from a seller when you purchase Bitcoins.


Not true.  When I use my USD to purchase Euro, or Peso, or Yen, or any other currency, I do not expect the issuer of that currency to pay me USD.

Bitcoin is not an investment into a "project". It is a money.  The exchange rate between Bitcoin and any other money may vary over time, and some people can take advantage of this varying exchange rate to profit (just like you could profit by taking advantage of variations between the exchange rate between USD and the Euro).  Anyone that expects some "issuer" to pay them for accepting Bitcoin has wildly misunderstood what Bitcoin is and how it works.


In ALL TRANSACTIONS, payment is only possible from funds of someone else paying you.  That's the DEFINITION OF A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION.

You seem to like to say:

"Look, someone paid someone, in a Ponzi people pay people, therefore it is a Ponzi!"

Then when someone points out that there are lots of reasons that people pay people, and that they are not all Ponzi, you respond with:

"Those examples are beside the point.  In those examples, someone paid someone and since they were paid it's ok.  But in Bitcoin someone pays someone, and in Ponzi someone pays someone, therefore Bitcoin is a Ponzi!"

It's circular nonsense that carries no meaning.  Yes, in a scam, a person is convinced to give another person something of value. That is NOT what makes it a scam.  People give other people things of value all the time in situations that are not a scam.  Until you can understand this, you aren't going to get anywhere in this conversation.


It does matter. It matters because NOBODY issues Bitcoin. Since nobody issues Bitcoin, there is nobody to operate a "Ponzi".  There is nobody to be a "Scheme Organizer" (which is who you claim should be paying someone).


One cannot be paid by someone that does not exist.  What matters is that holders should not expect to be paid by anyone for holding.  It is not an "investment" into a business.  It does not pay "dividends" or "interest".  It is an inflationary money that will eventually become deflationary.


There you go saying words again that don't make sense, and that are contradictory.

Hahaha, THAT is your point, that someone in North Korea or other really messed up country will have a hard time purchasing gold ???   When we give adivce, it never applies to evey person on the planet,  covering 99 % of people that read and use this forum is good enough.   How utterly DISHONEST and IRRELEVANT can you be ???    The fact that you must stretch so far shows how intellectually corrupt you are if you think this makes your point.   This is a huge red flag, and is a perfect example of the kind of person never to listen to.  Would you listen to an investment advisor from a bank that went to such dishonesty as to use examples that apply to almost no one ???

The VAST MAJORITY of people here do not have problems buying real gold if they want.  

So are you from North Korea, or just dishonest and trying to give a false impression to everyone here  🙈🙈🙈

Hard Facts

BTC is meant to be sent electronically, how do you send out that physical bitcoin gold worth 0.1?  Its an odd thing because I can't use sandpaper to divide it and give out the gold dust to someone worth 0.1.

If you look at BTC as currency it won't be ponzi because its suppose to be just a currency. The only reason why its value rises and fall is because of the market.

It seems you may need to work on your reading comprehension skills a bit.

My point was that you called someone dishonest for stating that THEY had a problem.  You claimed that they "infer that their special problems apply to everyone else", which they did not.  You tried to accuse them of lying and being dishonest (when they were not).

This already establishes you as a bully, and as a dishonest person.

But, even more so, you established yourself as a hypocrite. You did so by first actually claiming that something applies to "everyone" (which it did not) and then calling someone else "dishonest" for implying that something applied to everyone (which they did not.

Saying "Bitcoin is a digital gold" is like saying "Bitcoin is a digital car, or digital apple or digital pizza ...". Hence, just playing rhetorical games.

When you purchase Euro you expect to spend it since you cannot eat it or drink it. Hence you expect the non-monetary value. This value is provided by the borrowers prior to their loan payments, as explained in the video.

Financial transaction or paying with an instrument is not replying an instrument. I can pay you in bonds, stocks or dollars but bond, stock or dollar issuer is the one who repays these instruments. In bitcoin, its issuers don't repay it, which is why this repayment is possible only from funds of other bitcoin investors. To put it another way. Bitcoin is worthless since all value is brought by new investors. Just like in all ponzi-like schemes.

Not necessarily, it's also "barter-system-like". It is only Ponzi-like if the funds that have to be paid to the inverstors are necessarily higher (or of more value, if they're non-monetary) than the investments of the investors. According to your definition, every barter system (LETS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_exchange_trading_system)) which is not backed by fiat is also a Ponzi ;D (If you should claim that e.g. time banks are different because there seems to be a guarantee for a certain value measured in time - they aren't, because nobody is forced to accept the time bank currency, so exactly the same risks apply as in Bitcoin.)

They do pay a non-monetary value, "hashrate", which translates into network security and thus adds value to the network. And that's the point of Satoshi's proof-of-work model.

I never said digital gold.  It is you who is playing games.


Actually:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

Regardless, when you "purchase" Bitcoin (if you aren't trying to profit from the fluctuations in exchange rates) you expect to spend it.


And there you go once again talking in circles.

There’s nothing I haven’t seen people say about Bitcoin. I don’t really know what’s this guy is trying and I didn’t even stress myself with watching the video to the end, it doesn’t make sense for me to be watching because I’m still not going to believe whatever he has to say, as long as it’s not something good about Bitcoin but only to label it a scam.

First I have seen people say that Bitcoin Ponzi, that was the popular and I have also seen others try to explain it in other ways, all they are doing is just to make believe that Bitcoin is scam. So, I don’t have that time.

Yeah, I know where you are coming from and I agree. So FIAT, with its debt-ridden inflation and is only an I.O .U note is not a scam? Our Fiat money is only worth anything because we are forced to trust it. DIAMONDS, WHICH ARE JUST A PIECE OF ROCK, are only worth tons because it is marketed that way. So why is Bitcoin more of a fraud than these items I just mentioned? Whoever made this stupid video has an agenda or was paid by some whale to bring down the price of Bitcoin so noobs can sell it lol.  ;D ;D At least Bitcoin has a limited supply unlike the federal reserve pumping out dollars every time the banks want a bailout which the Taxpayers pay for and everyone else pays for because every time money is printed, we lose purchasing power. The biggest scam of all and Ponzi is FIAT. I'd rather park my money in Bitcoin than Fiat any day.

This discussion is completely pointless since it simply does not apply to Bitcoin. A "certificate of membership" is a term applied to shareholders. That simply does not apply to bitcoin and so the entire thing is invalid. You "earn" bitcoin through mining (just like you do with gold). Bitcoin has always been digital "cash" and nothing more than that. Sure people run around saying they're "investing" in it etc but that has nothing to do with how it comes to be created. Bitcoin and gold are backed by nothing. They come from "nothing" but the value people give it. Stocks come from assets of a company. Completely different things.

Now, if you want to apply the "fraud" claim etc to all the other coins out there that have done IPOs and the like, then you would probably be right as in that case the "company" is holding the "asset" and trading it for money. But when it comes to bitcoin and all the others that never did that sort of thing, the video and opinion is completely wrong.