[VIDEO]The Nasty Secret of Bitcoin Exposed

[Beparanf]

What a lot of rubbish and the video is terrible quality too just like the content.

If you don't like bitcoin go somewhere else.  No one is forcing you to take part it's your own free will and choice.

Finding ways to put btc price down again, so he'll be able to buy at low price. The normal scheme of some newbie accounts from old crypto or bitcoin users to circulate FUD. Those who don't trust yet bitcoin enough can be fooled by some videos and negative threads but not those who already put their time researching and investing in it.

[antikvark]

What a lot of rubbish and the video is terrible quality too just like the content.

If you don't like bitcoin go somewhere else.  No one is forcing you to take part it's your own free will and choice.

Finding ways to put btc price down again, so he'll be able to buy at low price. The normal scheme of some newbie accounts from old crypto or bitcoin users to circulate FUD. Those who don't trust yet bitcoin enough can be fooled by some videos and negative threads but not those who already put their time researching and investing in it.

Screaming FUD every time someone tells the truth about Bitcoin won't make this truth go away.

[Fundamentals Of]

The video explains how Bitcoin turns your ownership into membership, which is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate.

https://youtu.be/C5RplXYwCyY

Do you know what is fraudulent here? It is this thing you are doing that is fraudulent.

And you claim to be educating people? Come on, you are the one who needs it. Isn't it obvious?

And talking about ownership, Bitcoin offers it 100%. Of course for as long as you do not save it somewhere else beyond your control such as exchange wallets.

Basically what could happen is that, since bitcoin is providing people with absolute freedome to the market and their own funds, people could choose to either be free or to be like what the member means by OP. You actually have the total control over your private keys and trasactions but turns out to be controlled by the market becauae most of the time, we got influenced by the fear of lossing profit. In the first place you just need to be firm and steady, being affected like this post from OP is one example of being manipulated and lost of freedom if entertained.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to your faith or belief in Bitcoin. If you are doubting that this technology will achieve something someday you might end up being swayed by the rise and fall of prices which is being influenced to a certain extent by the whales. But if you are in the belief that Bitcoin is going to be conquering the world of currency, then you will not mind the temporary price fluctuations.

[DannyHamilton]

Bitcoin is not a money system as money systems transfer either goods (commodities) or entitlements. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a system for transferring digital membership certificates. Membership certificates are not money.

You seem to be using a definition of "money" that is different than most.

Most people would agree that:

Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment. Any item or verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered as money.

Using this, far more common, understanding of money... Bitcoin is a money system.

[antikvark]

Bitcoin is not a money system as money systems transfer either goods (commodities) or entitlements. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a system for transferring digital membership certificates. Membership certificates are not money.

You seem to be using a definition of "money" that is different than most.

Most people would agree that:

Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment. Any item or verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered as money.

Using this, far more common, understanding of money... Bitcoin is a money system.

Yes, money is any item or verifiable record...but record of ownership, and not record of membership. Characters on a membership card of a local soccer club are also "verifiable record", but are not money. Of course everyone is free to view them as money and trade their property for them, but that's irrational as they are worthless. P.S. The video is edited so you can check the new version that has more details.

[DannyHamilton]

Yes, money is any item or verifiable record...but record of ownership

Nope.  Not verifiable record of ownership.

Any verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular socio-economic context.

everyone is free to view them as money and trade their property for them, but that's irrational as they are worthless.

It isn't worthless if it is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  All commodities (such as gold) or anything else that has "ownership" are also worthless if nobody is willing to accept them as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  Value is an intrinsically human concept.  If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

Regardless, A Bitcoin private key is proof of "ownership" and not "membership".  It is possible to "own" rights to value, which is what a private key provides.

[Thekool1s]

Value is an intrinsically human concept. If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

This is something he has failed to wrap his head around... he just doesn't get it... It's all about human subjectivity. The only reason the FIAT/Gold etc is "valuable" is because of collective human subjectivity, which I mentioned in one of my replies... Once you take that out there is no such thing as "Value".

[antikvark]

Yes, money is any item or verifiable record...but record of ownership

Nope.  Not verifiable record of ownership.

Any verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, in a particular socio-economic context.

everyone is free to view them as money and trade their property for them, but that's irrational as they are worthless.

It isn't worthless if it is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  All commodities (such as gold) or anything else that has "ownership" are also worthless if nobody is willing to accept them as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.  Value is an intrinsically human concept.  If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

Regardless, A Bitcoin private key is proof of "ownership" and not "membership".  It is possible to "own" rights to value, which is what a private key provides.

Verifiable means capable of being proven as true or real.

A record is a series of characters.

The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.

Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.

Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment his/her entire savings into it. But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community. And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder. That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

[cabron]

Value is an intrinsically human concept. If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

This is something he has failed to wrap his head around... he just doesn't get it... It's all about human subjectivity. The only reason the FIAT/Gold etc is "valuable" is because of collective human subjectivity, which I mentioned in one of my replies... Once you take that out there is no such thing as "Value".

He doesn't understand that even fiat is also base to its intrinsic value. The amount we put is what we assume to be its price til someone else bids for the new price. 

I don't understand how he got this membership idea but I can only assume he is from an investment scam which is why is is very used to this membership cards.

[antikvark]

Value is an intrinsically human concept. If humans desire something (membership, ownership, or something else entirely) then it has value.  If humans do not desire it, then it does not have value.

This is something he has failed to wrap his head around... he just doesn't get it... It's all about human subjectivity. The only reason the FIAT/Gold etc is "valuable" is because of collective human subjectivity, which I mentioned in one of my replies... Once you take that out there is no such thing as "Value".

He doesn't understand that even fiat is also base to its intrinsic value. The amount we put is what we assume to be its price til someone else bids for the new price. 

I don't understand how he got this membership idea but I can only assume he is from an investment scam which is why is is very used to this membership cards.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.

When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property. Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders. In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02. Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders. But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.

[d5000]

If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment his/her entire savings into it. But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community. And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder. That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

If the purpose of Bitcoin was that buyers "benefit" from it simply by hodling it, then it has ponzi-like characteristics.

But that isn't the case. Bitcoin was designed as "peer to peer cash". The ultimate goal of those that follow Satoshi's original principles is that BTC eventually should enter a stable state, where there is no need for "new members" to enter the system, because it's not used for speculation but for trading goods and services, with an independent money circulation taking place in the Bitcoin ecosystem. In this scenario, the Bitcoin price should stay relatively stable.

And here we come to the question of "utility". If we reach the situation where the Bitcoin price is stable, how can people benefit from entering the Bitcoin ecosystem? Simply because it may have characteristics that are superior of other kinds of money. For example, you can simply send money from one country to another. You can get basic privacy (not a perfect one, but better than most non-crypto competitors). You don't depend from single private entities, like with PayPal and friends. And many people do already use Bitcoin to remove their dependancy of the government issued currency of a badly managed country like Venezuela. In the future, we can add that eventually it may become one of the most accepted forms of money. We don't know, but isn't impossible.

[antikvark]

If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment his/her entire savings into it. But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community. And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder. That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

If the purpose of Bitcoin was that buyers "benefit" from it simply by hodling it, then it has ponzi-like characteristics.

But that isn't the case. Bitcoin was designed as "peer to peer cash". The ultimate goal of those that follow Satoshi's original principles is that BTC eventually should enter a stable state, where there is no need for "new members" to enter the system, because it's not used for speculation but for trading goods and services, with an independent money circulation taking place in the Bitcoin ecosystem. In this scenario, the Bitcoin price should stay relatively stable.

And here we come to the question of "utility". If we reach the situation where the Bitcoin price is stable, how can people benefit from entering the Bitcoin ecosystem? Simply because it may have characteristics that are superior of other kinds of money. For example, you can simply send money from one country to another. You can get basic privacy (not a perfect one, but better than most non-crypto competitors). You don't depend from single private entities, like with PayPal and friends. And many people do already use Bitcoin to remove their dependancy of the government issued currency of a badly managed country like Venezuela. In the future, we can add that eventually it may become one of the most accepted forms of money. We don't know, but isn't impossible.

Ponzi-like characteristics do not reside in "holding" an instrument. You can "hold" stock or bond certificates (records) but that won't make them ponzi-like. Ponzi-like characteristics reside in the inability of a holder(scheme member) to benefit from his/her instrument unless the new member voluntarily chooses to buy it. Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it. This is because no one is obligated to trade his/her goods or services for bitcoin. On the other hand, in the case of dollars for e.g., borrowers are obligated to repay their loans and thus obligated to trade their goods and services to dollar holders. If they default on these obligations and fail in such trades, the banks will foreclose their property that was pledged as collateral and sell it to dollar holders. This is because the created dollars are the liability of the banks, and they are as such recorded in their balance sheets. To put it differently, dollars are records (digital or paper) that grant their holders the entitlements. The same is true for bonds, or stocks - they grant their holders the entitlements. Bitcoin doesn't grant its holders the entitlements, which is why these holders can benefit only from the entitlements (dollars for e.g.) or need-satisfying goods that are brought by new members. And that's the definition of a ponzi-like scheme.

[DannyHamilton]

The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.

Only because it is not "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."  The fact that it is not money has nothing to do with whether it is a record of ownership or not.

Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.

That "thing" that money is a record of is "value".  It doesn't need to be (and typically isn't) a physical object.  In nearly all modern cases, money is simply a verifiable record of control over value.

Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders control over a quantity of bitcoin has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment invest his/her entire savings into it.

FTFY

But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community.

Not true at all.  That bitcoin can be exchanged with other members of the Bitcoin community for anything else of value.  Bitcoin does not require "new members" at all.

And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

No. There are a lot of different fraudulent schemes.  The one thing they all have in common is that they depend on fraud. That is true regardless of whether the person/people operating the scheme are acquiring bitcoin, USD, gold, silver, real estate, or anything else of value.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.

Bitcoin doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.

That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

No.  The benefit comes from the fact that it is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."

If you are holding gold (unless you are manufacturing something with it), the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept that gold. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

If you are holding USD, the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept those USD. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.

And when a record is created in order to verify the fact that you have control over something that is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts," we talk about Money.

When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property.

And when someone hands you a $100 USD bill, this is not because you came into possession of some property either. 

Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders.

No.  The record is created because you have been given control over some value.

In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02.

No.  In the beginning, bitcoin didn't have value.  Just like in the beginning gold didn't have value.  Then eventually humans decided that bitcoin was useful and they began to desire it.  This gave it value.  Just like humans eventually decided that gold was useful and they began to desire it, which gave it value.  The most popularly known early transaction was 10,000 BTC for 2 large pizzas.  Assuming an approximate cost of $15 per pizza, this would imply that the early value that humans attributed to bitcoin was $0.003 (not $0.02).

Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders.

Clearly you fail to understand the basic concepts of supply and demand.

But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.

What is certain is that you have strong opinions that don't line up with reality.

[d5000]

Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it. [...]
Bitcoin doesn't grant its holders the entitlements, which is why these holders can benefit only from the entitlements (dollars for e.g.) or need-satisfying goods that are brought by new members.

Nope! Read my post again, particularly the last part.

If you define that a "benefit" only can occur if there is a price increase, then you're right, then you need new members (or more precisely: more "value" flowing into the system, be it "new" people "buying" BTC, people that already hold BTC "buying" more BTC or people "trading" it for goods and services). But again, my point is: Bitcoin doesn't depend on a price increase.

As I wrote, the goal of Bitcoin is to become "peer-to-peer cash". This can only happen if it enters a period of relatively stable BTC price, and that Bitcoin isn't traded primarily to fiat, but to goods and services. Then a circulation emerges where value is flowing from member to member, like it flows in the current fiat-based economy, or in barter systems, which are the best medium to compare Bitcoin to. In this phase, an increase of the value flowing into the system wouldn't be needed anymore, nor are new members purchasing it.

Where you're right is that nobody can guarantee that this will ever happen, while Fiat provides some guarantees like you correctly state (but look at cases like Venezuela, where fiat is regarded inferior than Bitcoin in it's worst bear markets). This is the risk if you buy Bitcoin today - it may simply fail, because it doesn't have an easily calculable "intrinsic" value.

However, there is also a chance that the "stable period" could happen at much higher prices than today. And that's why people are buying Bitcoin now and speculating to get rich.

[antikvark]

The following sentence: "The Earth is round", is a series of characters capable of being proven true. But is not money.

Only because it is not "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."  The fact that it is not money has nothing to do with whether it is a record of ownership or not.

Money is a thing (ownership) which is represented with a record. It is something outside the record.

That "thing" that money is a record of is "value".  It doesn't need to be (and typically isn't) a physical object.  In nearly all modern cases, money is simply a verifiable record of control over value.

Finally, human concepts can be extremely irrational. If membership in the community of Bitcoin holders control over a quantity of bitcoin has "value" to someone he/she is free to investment invest his/her entire savings into it.

FTFY

But he/she won't be able to benefit until a new member enters the community.

Not true at all.  That bitcoin can be exchanged with other members of the Bitcoin community for anything else of value.  Bitcoin does not require "new members" at all.

And this is exactly how all fraudulent schemes operate. And that's why they all eventually collapse.

No. There are a lot of different fraudulent schemes.  The one thing they all have in common is that they depend on fraud. That is true regardless of whether the person/people operating the scheme are acquiring bitcoin, USD, gold, silver, real estate, or anything else of value.

Money is something that doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.

Bitcoin doesn't require the addition of a new member to be able to provide benefit to its holder.

That is because the benefit comes from the entitlement or utility that is behind money.

No.  The benefit comes from the fact that it is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts."

If you are holding gold (unless you are manufacturing something with it), the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept that gold. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

If you are holding USD, the only benefit you receive is that someone else is willing to accept those USD. You can't eat it. You can't drink it. It isn't providing you shelter or entertainment. The only benefit it is providing you is the value that it carries due to the willingness of others to accept it as payment.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you came into the possession of some property, we talk about ownership record.

When a record is created in order to verify the fact that you joined some group, we talk about membership record.

And when a record is created in order to verify the fact that you have control over something that is "generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts," we talk about Money.

When a record is created in the blockchain, this is not because you came into the possession of some property.

And when someone hands you a $100 USD bill, this is not because you came into possession of some property either.  

Instead, this record is created because you joined the group of Bitcoin holders.

No.  The record is created because you have been given control over some value.

In the beginning, membership entrance fee - that granted you one membership stake, was $0.02.

No.  In the beginning, bitcoin didn't have value.  Just like in the beginning gold didn't have value.  Then eventually humans decided that bitcoin was useful and they began to desire it.  This gave it value.  Just like humans eventually decided that gold was useful and they began to desire it, which gave it value.  The most popularly known early transaction was 10,000 BTC for 2 large pizzas.  Assuming an approximate cost of $15 per pizza, this would imply that the early value that humans attributed to bitcoin was $0.003 (not $0.02).

Today it is $8.500. Why membership in this group became so expensive is mystery given that membership grants nothing to stakeholders.

Clearly you fail to understand the basic concepts of supply and demand.

But what is certain is that this is the largest fraudulent scheme in the history of mankind.

What is certain is that you have strong opinions that don't line up with reality.

There is no need for these red-herring comments. You won't change reality with them. The reality is this. Paper or digital records, such as dollars, bonds and stocks, grant monetary or non-monetary benefits to their holders. They grant interest or divided to their holders when in circulation. And they grant non-monetary repayments,  principal, and liquidation value when their issuers take them out of circulation - dollars when borrowers reply their loans, bonds at maturity date, and stocks when a company goes out of business. Bitcoin grants their holders zero interest or divided when in circulation. Bitcoin is never taken out of circulation by its issuer. So,  Bitcoin is a worthless record in an infinite circulation chain that can provide benefit to it's holders only and only when someone exchanges it for either, the above mentioned benefit providing records, or actual, tangible, goods or services. And this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme dressed up in a new(digital) uniform. That's the reality. You can accept it or you can keep writing red-herring comments.

[DannyHamilton]

this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme

You keep using this word.  This word does not mean what you seem to think it means.

A Ponzi can not operate if nobody new is recruited.  Its very existence depends on a continuous flow of new participants.

Bitcoin does not need any new participants at all.  The existing participants can pay each other with bitcoin and it will operate just fine.

[antikvark]

this is exactly how all ponzi-like schemes operate. Bitcoins is simply a classical ponzi-like scheme

You keep using this word.  This word does not mean what you seem to think it means.

A Ponzi can not operate if nobody new is recruited.  Its very existence depends on a continuous flow of new participants.

Bitcoin does not need any new participants at all.  The existing participants can pay each other with bitcoin and it will operate just fine.

What's the difference between new participants funding existing participants, and existing participants funding existing participants? There is none. In both cases, participants are not paid by scheme organizers or scheme's economic activity but from funds brought by the participants themselves.

[d5000]

scheme organizers

Who are these "scheme organizers"? The devs? The core team? The first investors? There is no such thing in Bitcoin.

scheme's economic activity

The "scheme's economic activity" is exactly what you describe as ...

funds brought by the participants themselves.

... because Bitcoin is most similar to a barter community. It works only if it's used. But it doesn't need "new participants" nor growing value flowing in (as you seem to begin to acknowledge ).

[antikvark]

scheme organizers

Who are these "scheme organizers"? The devs? The core team? The first investors? There is no such thing in Bitcoin.

scheme's economic activity

The "scheme's economic activity" is exactly what you describe as ...

funds brought by the participants themselves.

... because Bitcoin is most similar to a barter community. It works only if it's used. But it doesn't need "new participants" nor growing value flowing in (as you seem to begin to acknowledge ).

Irrelevant points. In the bitcoin scheme, investors are paid from funds that came from the pockets of other bitcoin investors. That's Ponzi-like.

Scheme organizers are miners. They issue new bitcoins, but pay nothing to bitcoin holders. In legitimate investments, issuers of an instrument pay its holders monetary or non-monetary value, as I have explained above. In the bitcoin scheme, miners pay nothing to bitcoin holders, which is why these holders can be paid only from funds of other bitcoin investors, like in classical ponzi-like schemes.

[Slow death]

Everyone should get the Real, Physical Bitcoin shown below that can not be hacked, and is actually YOURS

and what would be the price to acquire this physical bitcoin? in my case in addition to having to pay the price of the physical bitcoin, I would have to pay the DHL for this physical bitcoin to arrive safely in my country and not take a long time to arrive and I would still have to pay my country's customs and still in my country i would have to pay a fee to take this physical bitcoin, not to mention that in my country it takes hours to be attended when the person is going to take anything from abroad.

instead of just allowing you to be a member of the Titanic....

titanic member