Bitcoin Forum

I see only positive outcome from a new Lightning Network (sub)section in the forum (or maybe Layer 2 Protocols section to include the others like Liquid as well) you can call it also Off-chain section.
This seems to be the future for small and instant payments, and now it's a good time to move all the new projects using LN or other L2P to it's own place.

What you guys think?

Edit: There is another earlier request  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5209227.0)from DaveF for such board.

And one before that  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5151200.msg51363546#msg51363546)from BitCryptex

i think it's a very good idea :)
the question is whether a subforum should be set up or whether a meaningful structure should be considered to classify the threads.
but as a first step a simple separation would not be a mistake. the threads will be more and more in the future.

Where would you place it ? Because most of the `Bitcoin >` subsections can arguably be `Lightning >` subsections too (Development, discussion, technical support, projects, etc..). And since LN is part of Bitcoin I'm not sure about making the distinction.

However I'm in favor of having another place to discuss all-things-lightning than https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.0 which keeps growing  :)

I actually posted about this before back in December:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5209227 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5209227)

So yeah, you got my vote for it.
There are many threads that go in many different directions because there are so many topics within the LN to discuss it's easy to get sidetracked.

Having them all in one section where it's no big deal to post another thread and not worry about it getting buried would be great.

-Dave

I think the reason for adding a new section is that there is enough posts/topics  to create it.
There are not many topics related to the lightning network and therefore I do not think it necessary to establish that board. Maybe later there may be enough posts.

The best place is beginners & help and technical boards.

Actually, I requested the Lightning Network board (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5151200.msg51363546#msg51363546) back in June 2019. Obviously, I still support this idea. Most of the LN related discussion is currently being held in my FAQ thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.msg51615708#msg51615708) which makes it hard to find useful information for people who don't check it every time someone posts in it. 'Off-chain' or 'Layer 2' board would be great to have.

Lightning network is technically not a part of Bitcoin, it is an off-chain transaction model that can support blockchain-based cryptocurrency. It has been heavily linked with bitcoin, but the Bitcoin network can function without it (and so for a long while, considering the LN whitepaper was releases in 2015) and also the LN can be operated on other blockchains apart from that of Bitcoin.

LN is an emerging network and could be the solution to the scalability problem of Bitcoin, and it's discussion would become more relevant on the forum, it would be a good idea to have a specific board for such discussions, and I also like the idea of making an off chain section, as this could encourage more research and possibly better solutions.

Thanks, you guys make it so easy to quote myself:

It grows at a rate of ~1 post per day.  :P

Right now at least with LN topics being found in several different boards more people can be exposed to it. If all of these topics are to be corralled into one place, mostly only those who know what they're looking for will learn of the section and visit it, especially if it was to be a child-board of Dev & Tech.

edit: if it's common for newcomers to closely look through all boards and child-boards (at least those seen on the front page), then perhaps an opposite case could be made.

It would be beneficial to have all Lighting related stuff in one section. Few months ago when I started doing a bit more research into lighting I turned to google since browsing the forum was rather unsatisfying.

If it was up to me I would call it "Layer 2 Protocols" as mentioned in the OP since it allows inclusion of other solutions, probably even some that don't exists today.

Yes.. come on @theymos make it happen dude. If we have subs for shitcoins and fucking pajeet bounties then the least you can do is set one up for LN.. come on dude what’s more important for bitcoin LN or pajeets earning $0.001 for sharing a tweet to 8 followers?

I totally sustain the idea of having a separate board for LN; furthermore, not just LN, but also other Layer 2 Protocols. So this should include, but not be limited to, Liquid, Rootstock, Drivechain or Elements.


Regarding the board now: in Romania we have a saying - the smart one builds in the summer a sleigh and in the winter a carriage. What I mean is that if a special board would be created, this sholdn't be addressed (named) only to LN. Other solutions exist or are proposed already; some may become a real product; besides, in the future others will rise.

Regarding the place of the new board, I would suggest to be placed inside Bitcoin Discussion, and not inside Dev & Tech. Most of newbies and many others don't visit that section, considering it too technical. But Bitcoin Discussion is way more frequented.

I'm in. I've had a Lightning Network link in my signature for a few weeks/months now with my experimental LN lending thread and more recently a lender's discussion thread. You're welcome to check them out & I'm not adverse to reopening the lending thread if there's a genuine increase in people wanting to test out the various wallets (Blue seems to be out in front unless Éclair fixes some inherent issues)

A lot of people seem to think that it is the blockchain that gives Bitoin its value, but it is the developed Bitcoin economy that give it security and value.The miners nodes and wallet holders provide security and basic use,but real growth id coming from the associated services such as brokers, exchanges, and derivatives traders. The 10 minute block generation average time will stop Bitcoin itself becoming a volume payment service in the global markets,but the centralised side chains lile Lightning can provide this service. I believe they are essential for Bitcoins growth in the future, and therefore it would be useful to have a discussion board for them. Not just for Lightning,but for all of the side chains. It could be a child board for Bitcoin discussion.

The Lightning Network is not centralized. You're probably worried about large hubs overtaking the majority of the network in the future. I am not going to discuss it here further. There's already a long, separate thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3378014.0) which covers this topic (and a lot of other things ::)).

My bad - I'm such a long term believer in Bitcoin that I haven't been able to bring myself to spend any yet.

Centralised or not, I still think it would be useful to have a board to discuss these fast payment side chains, I know I need to find out how to accept payments through Lightning.

That's the beauty of it: a centralized payment provider can offer centralized LN payments, but they're compatible with anyone who runs his own node at home.

Definitely!

The information is now scattered all over the forum. Easy solution: install a custodial wallet (BlueWallet, Wallet of Satoshi). Slightly less easy solution: install a wallet that lets you open a channel (Eclair). Full learning curve: install your own node.

As far as I see, all people involved in this topic agreed on the necessity of such board. What is needed to have it (to convince theymos)?

Theymos has his own vision so something like this to happen, we need really to convince him that is the best for us and the forum and won't cause any problems for thme newbies. I've seen this before in another cases.

I already can point out the mod for the section - BitCryptex if he agrees of course :)

My Zap and Eclair wallets can't connect to any addresses ending in "onion" so there is actual two halves of the LN with probably a small number of connections between the two.

Maps already have clusters of bigger nodes, so it'd look something like that perhaps with a few strands trailing off to yet more clusters.

the only way to convince him to add a new board is to show that there are a lot of new topics in another board that are are for example pushing the discussions that are related to that board down.
for example right now there are 6 LN topics in last 5 pages of Development & Technical Discussion board (6 out of 200).
3 out of 200 in beginners and help board's last 5 pages.
2 out of 200 in bitcoin discussion board's last 5 pages.
2 out of 200 in Bitcoin Technical Support board's last 5 pages.

i don't think these stats warrant a new board.

It shows that there is interest in the topic, and it is spread across several boards at a variety of levels. I believe that there will be more posts about Lightning, and associated projects, if they had their own home, and I would probably be one. In my opinion, Lightning is an important project for the unbanked, and others seeking an alternative to cash. It offers them a way to build a small savings account that is free from the fiat system

There's four lightning network threads in the lending section too.

Perhaps if there was a Lightning board, then we could persuade someone from lightning to post on it. After all, some guy called Satoshi Nakamoto used to post here, and wasn't he something to do with Bitcoin in its early days? :)

Exactly this. The twelfth page (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.220) of the FAQ thread is a good example of that. Most of the questions asked there could be divided into separate threads.


Sure.

Great, I hope this will be a good example why we need a separate section, but as i said before is not needed to be a  designated section only for Lighting Network it can cover the other Layer 2 Protocols.

Bump!

Bump acknowledged.  I'm still sympathetic to the idea, but I think now isn't the right time.  A few thoughts come to mind as to why.  To get the aforementioned out of the way, as others have already commented, there may not be enough content to warrant a separate board yet.  

Beyond that, my primary concern is that, while many of us may be eager to see increased Lightning adoption, it's also not something that should be rushed.  I wouldn't want people to come away with the impression that just because it has it's own subforum that somehow means it's "production ready" and all set to go for mainstream adoption.  People could conceivably treat it like an official endorsement or seal of approval that the floodgates are open for the masses.  It might sound silly, but I feel like people often forget that Bitcoin itself is still, in fact, beta software.  

Lastly, the Development & Technical sub has a more strict policy on trolls than other parts of the board and it's fair to say that topics about LN always seem to attract "the usual suspects" who like to either derail the topic or fill it with FUD, so I'd rather see LN discussed there, where such behaviour isn't tolerated (inb4 oMg cEnSoRsHiPs!).

Personally, I'd say give it another year or so.  There's no doubt in my mind we'll have such a section at some point, but not quite yet.

Bump.


In the past year, a few user-friendly Lightning wallets, like BlueWallet (https://bluewallet.io/), Strike (https://beta.strike.me/) and Phoenix Wallet (https://phoenix.acinq.co/), emerged and have been since then improved. The first two require hardly any extra knowledge from the user who doesn't even need to manage their own channels. Both Kraken (https://blog.kraken.com/post/7225/a-need-for-speed-kraken-to-launch-bitcoin-lightning-%E2%9A%A1%EF%B8%8F-integration-in-2021/#oo) and OKEx (https://www.okex.com/academy/en/okex-to-integrate-the-bitcoin-lightning-network-enabling-cheaper-and-faster-transactions-for-users) announced they they are going to introduce Lightning deposits/withdrawals this year. This might give the mainstream adoption a push.

It looks like the activity in "The Lightning Network FAQ (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.0)" thread, which is often used to ask various LN related questions, has slightly decreased recently, but it seems that the LN is more and more often brought up (https://ninjastic.space/search?content=Lightning) across different boards.

I guess it's my turn to bump this thread - there's a core group in the Forum that are advocates of the Bitcoin Lightning Network and have been asked from time to time why our various threads are in this or that thread ...

So, as the title of this thread asks:

Don't you guys think it's time for LN to have it's own (sub)section now?

I still think 90% of the posts will be from "Mr Millisats (https://ninjastic.space/search?after_date=2017-04-01T17%3A30%3A51&author=franky1&before_date=2021-04-07T17%3A30%3A51&content=millisats)" himself, but if you want to contend with that freakshow, then on your head be it. 

franky1 already got banned (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5192937.0) from the "Development & Technical Discussion" section, so I guess it would be only a matter of time in the Lightning/2nd layer board.

I think this is a very valid point.

Traditionally, the need for a new sub is measured by how many threads on a topic are on the first few pages in their existing sub. A better measure might be similar to when a new local sub is created when the one megathread for the local community gets too big.

The LN megathread is currently 37 pages, and it appears that posts tend to occur there in bursts. I would ask if it is common for posts to get "lost" that might otherwise get responded to because there are too many other posts?

Was for it over a year ago, still think it's a good idea now.
There is a large amount of LN discussion elsewhere on the internet, but here it's just in a few threads.
With a dedicated sub section I really think that it will have a lot more activity.

-Dave

Getting more activity depends on more people asking questions about it, and so far we are not seeing that.

mprep already said he's not going to add another section unless their topics fill most of the page of a board. I can count the number of LN topics on page 1 of Dev&Tech board on one hand.

But still, it still surprises me how few people know about LN in general. When I mention it in an unrelated conversation, some ask if it's some kind of alt currency while others think it's an unofficial bitcoin fork.

I believe that a dedicated LN subsection would greatly contribute to a better understanding of LN protocol.

Hello.

Obviously that, with the increasing demand for knowledge and people using LN, and also Liquid (not me though), I think it makes all sense to have a dedicated forum (or sub-forum) for 2-layer solutions. And then maybe, do something like there is for bitcoin. A technical child, a projects child, etc etc.

I think there is plenty material, for 2-layer solutions, to have their own forum.

Also, it would make it better for searches and for narrowing the places where you need to search.

So, yes, it makes all sense, IMO, to have a dedicated area for 2-layer solutions.

I would agree.  It should be for all 2-layer solutions though.  I don't like this idea that Lightning is somehow special and more deserving than any other scaling solution put forth by anyone else.  It should be grouped in with similar projects and not viewed as an extension of Bitcoin that is somehow more special because of what team is behind it.

Putting it on Bitcoin Wiki better suits that objective.

I guess it happened a few times, but I think it's more common for the LN related threads to be scattered across various boards. Here's a list that I put together:

2021
Bitcoin Discussion: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5308220.msg56061451#msg56061451), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5305762.msg55992753#msg55992753), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5320169.msg56439044#msg56439044), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5323433.msg56549133#msg56549133)
Development & Technical Discussion: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5323297.msg56545288#msg56545288), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5322184.msg56508532#msg56508532), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5315079.msg56279703#msg56279703), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5311939.msg56174127#msg56174127), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5316735.msg56330182#msg56330182)
Wallet Software: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5307675.msg56046328#msg56046328), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5308304.msg56063989#msg56063989), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5310916.msg56142516#msg56142516), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5324563.msg56588597#msg56588597), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5325974.msg56633359#msg56633359)
Electrum: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5305623.msg55989224#msg55989224), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5306067.msg56000563#msg56000563), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5306336.msg56006206#msg56006206), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5306662.msg56015501#msg56015501), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5306930.msg56022904#msg56022904), 6 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5320518.msg56451610#msg56451610), 7 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5329718.msg56752057#msg56752057), 8 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5329999.msg56762881#msg56762881), 9 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5329818.msg56755947#msg56755947), 10 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5329809.msg56755763#msg56755763)
Bitcoin Technical Support: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5314145.msg56254985#msg56254985), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5308964.msg56082706#msg56082706), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5311035.msg56145147#msg56145147)
Beginners & Help: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5322169.msg56508174#msg56508174)

2020
Bitcoin Discussion: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5266907.msg54940969#msg54940969), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5303979.msg55942979#msg55942979), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5290025.msg55606094#msg55606094), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5285009.msg55471419#msg55471419), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5280912.msg55342373#msg55342373), 6 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5278007.msg55257199#msg55257199), 7 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5254580.msg54593568#msg54593568), 8 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5272319.msg55091787#msg55091787), 9 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5267544.msg54960090#msg54960090), 10 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5256191.msg54635419#msg54635419), 11 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5245194.msg54344474#msg54344474), 12 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5222154.msg53744833#msg53744833), 13 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5214643.msg53512157#msg53512157)
Development & Technical Discussion: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5305421.msg55984932#msg55984932), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5217699.msg53607838#msg53607838), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5305227.msg55980721#msg55980721), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5292691.msg55666091#msg55666091), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5266897.msg54940573#msg54940573), 6 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5256042.msg54631535#msg54631535), 7 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5217198.msg53593062#msg53593062)
Electrum: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5259973.msg54732922#msg54732922), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5279653.msg55304056#msg55304056), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5278780.msg55280196#msg55280196), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5272965.msg55111283#msg55111283), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5271384.msg55066823#msg55066823), 6 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5269912.msg55025815#msg55025815)
Wallet Software: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5250677.msg54488992#msg54488992), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5272590.msg55101624#msg55101624), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5248537.msg54432983#msg54432983)
Bitcoin Technical Support: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286474.msg55512213#msg55512213), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5287756.msg55550444#msg55550444), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5287161.msg55532824#msg55532824), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5281894.msg55374401#msg55374401), 5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5272590.msg55100597#msg55100597), 6 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5271587.msg55072555#msg55072555), 7 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5243174.msg54289534#msg54289534)
Beginners & Help: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5276985.msg55227614#msg55227614), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5275451.msg55184649#msg55184649), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5216722.msg53577702#msg53577702)
Altcoin Discussion: 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5274368.msg55155201#msg55155201)

What about the Mycelium (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=231.0) section then? There doesn't seem to be much activity and yet it exists. Was there any particular reason why it was created?

So to give a better perspective, 25 threads over 13+ weeks this year compared with 11 threads in Mycelium's dedicated child-board over the same period of time.


I don't know what's the current popularity ranking of Bitcoin wallets, or mobile Bitcoin wallets, but at one point (~2013-2016) Mycelium was the most popular mobile Bitcoin wallet, and a very popular one altogether even when compared with desktop wallets. There are more wallets now, a lot of people use exchanges as wallets anyway, and bitcointalk also competes for attention with other Internet venues, so all of these factors influence why that section isn't very active.

There is still an Armory sub, and there hasn't been any commits to their public GitHub repo (https://github.com/goatpig/BitcoinArmory/commits/master) in over two years, and there are issues without discussion from over a year ago, making me believe the devs have all but abandoned the project.

The cost of keeping a sub open is low, and there are a lot of existing threads in both the Armory and Mycellium subs that people can search and review. The development of wallet software has improved over the years, and there are not the same amount of bugs there were five years ago, so users of wallet software largely don't have problems running the various wallet software.

It's not abandoned, check out other branches: https://github.com/goatpig/BitcoinArmory/branches/all, especially the development branch: https://github.com/goatpig/BitcoinArmory/commits/dev

Also: https://github.com/goatpig/BitcoinArmory/issues/657 It's just that only one person is working on it, probably with more important stuff on his mind day to day.


Yes. Mycelium's popularity also stems from the fact that it was easy to use and 'just worked'. I found mobile Electrum to be very buggy when trying it out years ago.

Ahh, you're right. It is interesting there would be so much activity on the dev branch, and no merges into production after so long.

I think the deterministic generation of addresses, the standardization of derivation paths, and of seeds has made it easier to develop wallet software and has made it not as big of a deal if there are problems with the software because the consumer's money will be safe as long as the software can calculate the addresses correctly.

The above principles are important if LN is going to be successful. LN wallet software needs to have a good mechanism for not losing the latest channel state, and associated transactions if it will be successful.

Once again, IMO, it's kind of a loop.
There are other places to talk about LN and things. So, I can post here, and possibly get a reply or 2. Or I can post in a discord discussion and get a lot more responses.
So, I don't post something about LN here, someone else does not post something about LN here, because we can get it answered elsewhere. And people say "we don't need a separate place for it in the forum" because there are not that many people posting about it.

-Dave

If you have something interesting to say about LN, or perhaps you have found a solution to something that you believe other people may have problems with, it might be good to post about it in one of the LN threads anyway.

BTW, which discord channel can you recommend for LN-related discussions?

I am not aware of any Discord servers, but I have been in this Telegram channel (https://t.me/lightning_network) for quite some time now. It is surprisingly active, but not on-topic all the time.


I think that you might have missed his point. I missed some LN threads, which I could have answered, because I mostly browse "Development & Technical Discussion" and "Bitcoin Technical Support" boards. If there was a dedicated section then there might be a higher chance of getting accurate answers just like you could get them on some LN related Discord/Telegram channel.