Bitcoin Forum

https://i.imgur.com/o06vxl2.png

Today I saw announcement from foundationdevices about their new upcoming hardware wallet called Passport.
It is Open Source, Airgapped and made in Boston, USA with premium look and feel, so I expect to see premium price also ;D
Secure element, camera, AAA batteries and microSD port are included with support for major software wallets.

Website:
https://foundationdevices.com/

Specifications:
https://foundationdevices.com/passport/details/

FAQ:
https://foundationdevices.com/faqs/

What do you think about Passport and do you have any price predictions?  :D

The first thing that came into my dingbat little head when I saw this device was this:

https://i.imgur.com/ufnd0SN.jpg

The second thing I thought of was a first generation iPod, which I don't have a picture of.  Anyway, I wouldn't say the Passport is particularly elegant-looking, and I don't think it's necessarily as minimalistic as other HW wallets.  I do like the screen and I do like the physical buttons, but would I buy one of these?  Probably not. 

Why?  Because I think a Ledger Nano S or X can do everything the Passport can do and more, and both of those have track records of satisfied users (same for Trezor).  If I could buy one of these things for as much or less than a Keepkey, I might try it out--but I have a feeling the price point is going to be much higher.

@The Pharmacist, my first thought when I saw photo was same. I think I also had same phones in left and right in past :D.
Description of this wallet and wallet itself looks solid. But I imagine it's going to cost very expensive compared to other hardware wallets. $250 smallest price that I could imagine :D. Now I don't see any reasons why someone would need to replace their Ledger to this wallet.
BTW, I don't get, why camera is needed in hardware wallet?

So it can be fully "air gapped"... it'll be for scanning QR Codes etc... aside from the SDCard there is no other way for it to be able to read data in... it doesn't have BT or USB.

Agree with The Pharmacist here - this looks old fashioned. Even the menu screen looks like a late 90s MP3 player.

I'm also a little bit concerned by this phrase:

I can't find anything on their website to state if this is the only back up method, or if they also generate BIP39 seed phrases. I don't want my back up on an SD card, and I definitely don't want my back up to be in a format that is only recoverable with another Passport hardware wallet. We need more details about this.

I do like the fact that batteries are generic and replaceable, though.

Please don't tell me that Ledger is more elegant than Passport.  :D
People are starting to make Ledger cult in this forum, and don't get me wrong I do own Ledger wallet.
Ledger looks a like old USB drive you can get for 50 cents  ;D and don't let me start with their shity Ledger Live  :-\
and their recent leak and data breach: https://www.ledger.com/addressing-the-july-2020-e-commerce-and-marketing-data-breach

https://i.imgur.com/flFj6b6.jpg

I predict minimum price of $900  :D

That is interesting part that I missed. Building it myself from scratch and ten times cheaper just because I can  ;D

Yeah, I am sure firmware update (if they have it) will be available from microSD.

Yeah, Ledger is similar to cheap USB drive, but I don't think it's bad, I don't think that hardware wallet needs fancy design. Ledger is little, light, compact and simple wallet. While Passport looks like big phone made 20 years ago. I think that with current technologies, they were able to make device smaller and more compact.

Might be, I wouldn't be surprised at all :D.

I thought it was a company to redesign the old phones and make them Airgapped, I didn't expect it to be their design, it's so strange.
There is not a lot of information but the comparisons made seem childish.
I did not see how these devices will be charged, and I believe that only dollar support will not bring them a lot of profits.
Why do we need multiple signatures?

Coldcard old version

I won't (and didn't) tell you that, because I don't think either one is very elegant. 

Though I'm a fan of the Ledger, I wouldn't be a part of that cult.  I've had a few annoying problems with my Ledger, and it's far from perfect.  But as far as it looking like an old flash drive, I consider that a positive feature since it makes it much easier to hide.

Ledger Live isn't too bad in my experience, but just like the Ledger device itself it's got lots of room for improvement.  It's a good thing they keep updating LL.

You will have to manually remove the back cover and change your batteries or use rechargeable batteries that can be charged by a third party charger of yours. I see no other way since you cant connect the device to anything.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but at least people still use USB drives. Nobody has owned a phone which looks like the Passport for 15+ years. And yes, Ledger Live is bad, which is why most people use Electrum as the interface instead. :P

Don't get me wrong - I like the airgapped designed, and I like their commitment to being open sourced (although no links to their GitHub yet), I just don't see myself carrying such a device around with me. Perhaps I would use it as a hardware wallet that stays at home.

They won't be. They used standard AAA batteries, so you just replace them when they run out.

---

I also wonder if they are reading this thread. At some point since my earlier post less than 12 hours ago showing concern about their back up methods, the page I linked (https://foundationdevices.com/passport/details/) has been updated to include that back ups are available via "standard 24 word seed". Good to know it will be BIP39 compatible.

Lots of potential positives about this wallet, I just personally find the physical design a bit of a sticking point.

Wrong.
I still use phone like that and there is nothing wrong it. Working great.
If you like to be tracked everywhere with stupid smart phones go ahead :)

Lets look at the size of both devices:

1. 'Holly Grail' Ledger Nano X:
Size 72mm x 18.6mm x 11.75mm
2.83 x 0.73 x 0.46 inches

'Holly Grail' Ledger Nano S:
Size 56.95mm x 17.4mm x 9.1mm
0.71 x 0.35 x 3.86 inches

taken from holly grail website: ledger.com


2. Not elegant old phone style boring anti holly grail wallet Passport:

1.5 inches wide x 4 inches tall x 0.8 inches thin (3.8 cm x 10.2 cm x 2 cm)

taken from: foundationdevices.com


Are you even looking at numbers before you make an assumptions?
We are not talking about old Nokia brick phone here  ;D

So I could get more of a feel for the size involved, I plugged all the numbers in to here (along with an old Nokia phone for comparison): https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Nano-S-vs-Trezor-One-vs-Nano-X-vs-Passport-vs-Nokia-3310/1596053880559

The size is much closer to an old Nokia phone than it is to other common hardware wallets. That won't be an issue for many people, but for someone who is used to carrying around and concealing a hardware wallet no bigger than a USB stick or a credit card, it's a major sticking point. I can't slip it inside my wallet. I can't attach it to my keys. I can't even comfortably fit it in the pocket of some jeans alongside my wallet or phone.

Ok, I prefer size of Ledger wallet, but I'm not sure that size and design is such big issue. How many of you are taking hardware wallets with yourself? Because personally, my Ledger never left my home. Offcourse, there is people who spend their Bitcoins in physical stores, but I doubt that many of them are using hardware wallets for it. Most likely that mobile wallets is their choice.

https://i.imgur.com/ikLWAKb.png
Oh I also added dollar bill just to compare size, and Nokia 3310 is not old brick exactly.
You also need to open your Ledger wallet so in reality it is double the size when you use it.


Yes you can, and you can easily get your data hacked and sold on internet and dark web.
And why would you ever carry your fortune with you all the time?
People lose keys and cheap USB drives very easy from jeans, or some girl can stole them from your pocket if you look to much in her tits  ;D

Sorry for messing with your Ledger worship gang, but somebody has to.  :D

Exactly.
I never carry it with myself or on my keys

You seem to be forgetting the golden rule of "use cases"... which, as I was quite fond of telling my ex, is "Everyone is NOT you!" :P

Simply because you don't see a need for X or you don't want to do Y with your device... doesn't mean nobody else does. I've travelled (internationally) with my ledger before... a small USB key like device barely gets a 2nd look from customs officials when you're travelling with a laptop and have 2 other similar looking USB keys in your bagetc... and having access to "emergency funds" when away from home for 3-4 weeks is useful... especially when your missus likes to shop up a storm! :P ::)

And I'm not sure why you seem to think that everyone here "worships" the Ledger... I like it, but as someone else mentioned, it's far from perfect... but then, so is my Trezor... and Electrum... and Mycelium... and Bitcoin Core for that matter... but I still use all of them and would be happy to recommend any of them depending on the use case.

The size when I'm using it is fairly irrelevant since I also have to have my laptop open to use it. It's the size when I'm trying to inconspicuously carry it around with me that concerns me.

I don't. The majority of my holdings are on various encrypted airgapped wallets or paper wallets. However, I would rarely put more than $50 on a mobile wallet, so if I'm out and about or traveling and anticipate the need to use bitcoin, then I want a small hardware wallet I can easily carry with me.

I am very much not a part of a Ledger worship gang. I like their devices, I hate their software interface, and now have major concerns regarding their attitudes towards customer privacy.

As I said above, that's entirely up to you and so you may love the Passport. As someone who does carry a hardware wallet around, this device does not fulfill the criteria I need it to. Each to their own.

One more member of this Ledger cult
Can anything bad be said about Ledger hardware wallet or not?
Does everything happening with Ledger needs to be justified?

AGAIN, I do own Ledger wallet but I do not worship it.
Yes Ledger is small and I can crush it if I step on it very easy.

Smart phones are getting bigger and bigger but most of people buy them more and more.
Old Nokia phone is smaller than modern smartphones people carry everyday.

https://i.imgur.com/szzw9gx.png
https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Nano-S-vs-Trezor-One-vs-Nano-X-vs-Passport-vs-Nokia-3310/1596053880559#/

Ok, that is honest answer.
I expected to see more criticism from other people regarding Ledger, and not just putting things under the carpet (not talking about you in specific, but in general).

The ColdCard people are not real happy with them at the moment:

https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1288860345864527874

I'm kind of torn about it. Part of me is thinking it's OSS people can do what they want you released it that way.
The other part is yeah, if you are making money from someones code or plan to make money from someones code although you might not owe them money you should be contributing something.

-Dave

Hardware wallet war saga continues  :D
Open source means open source and anyone can use your code...and it seems they are now thinking of using new creative commons license.

Reply from Foundation:
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1288980273791741952

One more interesting thing is that Passport team previously worked for Obelisk and selling miners:
https://www.bbb.org/us/ma/boston/profile/virtual-currency/obelisk-inc-0021-439541/complaints
https://twitter.com/zachherbert/status/1288504731988570120

It would appear that you didn't read anything I wrote except for the "I like it" part... so therefore I am part of this so-called "Ledger Cult" ::) ::) ::)

Instead of deciding what you think I think of Ledger, lets try reading what I actually wrote:
Yep, obviously I'm the Ledger Cult Leader ::) ::) ::)


Obviously, there are lots of "bad things"™ that can be said about it... the buttons feel flimsy... entering PINs/Passphrases is problematic... the screen can't display all the data at once... their native software has a ton of issues... and some of their UI/UX decisions are just terribad, imo... adding all these shitcoins and shittokens instead of providing some "proper" features etc. Having said that, I can understand why they chose that path.


I'm not even sure what you mean by this? ???

Justified by whom? Ledger? The "cult members"? Their detractors? ???

Well, this is something what I don't like at all. When I'm looking for new phone, I try to find something what would be not too big for me because I need phone, not a tablet. For me it's not comfortable to use big phone with one hand or put it to my pocket. But offcourse, everyone has their own preferences.
BTW, I'm not sure where do you see so called "Ledger cult" here? Because I don't see anyone here praising that Ledger is perfect and that they aren't making mistakes.

You can try as much as you want but you can't find small smartphone anymore, they are all big and larger than Nokia phone shown before.
So I don't understand people want to have miniature hardware wallet and big smart phones  ::)

I won't go more offtopic but there are some people here who are in love with their Ledger hardware wallet   :P  and I won't name them.
If there are some mistakes and flaws people should expose them here, that is why forum exists.

Looks like work is progressing on this. They tweeted an image of the prototype cases the other day:

Obviously it's just about impossible to tell from that one image but it looks a bit like really cheap plastic in that shot.
Probably just the way the picture was taken.

Link to twitter picture: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ef9YjYTXkAIXVrp?format=jpg&name=large

-Dave

They may not be as small as before, but there are some that are quite small (twice the size of today's standard sizes).
PalmPhone - 3.3-inch display (https://www.androidauthority.com/palm-phone-hands-on-931360/) or even smaller Unihertz Atom - 2.45-inch display (https://www.androidauthority.com/unihertz-atom-review-936593/)


I’ve never hidden that I own Ledger HW, but that doesn’t mean I’m in some cult as you constantly imply it - nor is anyone else overly aggressive in defending that company. Every omission and vulnerability should be made public and discussed - but no big dramas should be made about some things that are not critical. In my opinion, Ledger has definitely gone in the wrong direction, and there is no doubt about it - but there is no documented case of someone being hacked because a vulnerability, which is the most important thing for me as a user.

I think you mentioned Nokia 3310 before,
That phone is smaller than most smartphones today, and I shoed image comparison.
I can always dig out brick from 1980 and say, here it is.

This thing is ugly as hell.
But i guess it could be a good device for people who don't want to spend more than a few bucks.

Considering all the parts are pretty cheap, the whole device shouldn't cost more than ~20$.

And the good thing is, it won't ever be stolen since it looks like a 20y old mobile  ;D ;D

There is no way this wallet will be $20, and I would like to see you make one yourself.
It has camera and removable batteries, and it will be airgapped.
Maybe add few more zeroes for correct pricing sir   ;D

Judging by their twitter account prototype is released:
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1296852586398654465

And that's its strong suit in my opinion. Personally I don't care how good-looking a device looks if I'm going to use it for security purposes, and I wouldn't use a glamorous hardware wallet if it turns out to be insecure. I like how the Passport can't be connected to anything, because people have made spying devices shaped in a USB port and that makes me feel slightly paranoid because however unrealistic it may be (emphasis on unrealistic) I still worry that USB hardware wallets like Ledger might be modified by someone to steal coins.

And also the buttons on the Passport are very big and easy to press, it's slightly easier to press the correct physical buttons than ones on the screen like on Trezor, which is especially important if you're typing a password, and a certain number of incorrect tries wipes the device.

You're wrong again, my previous post is the first in this thread - I didn't make any comparisons or mention the Nokia 3310. Also, if we compare  Unihertz Atom (96 * 45 * 18 mm) with Nokia 3310 (113 mm × 48 mm × 22 mm) it is clear that this smartphone is almost identical to the old dummy phones like Nokia 33/3210.

---

And as for this new model of hardware wallet, I think that regardless of the look and price, there will always be those who will buy it - but somehow it does not seem to me that they will have much success. Many models have appeared over the years, but have failed to impose themselves in a market that is mainly focused on the two main manufacturers. Given all their problems, it's a little strange to me that no one is trying (at least seriously) to enter the market with some competing hardware wallet model - Passport definitely doesn't seem like that to me.

---

Or those children's toys that imitate mobile phones and make various sounds - which means that the ideal place to hide this device is right in the box with children's toys🐱‍💻

Who the fuck knows about Unihertz Atom?
Only you probably, as I never heard about it like most people.
What phone do you have? Is it Unihertz Atom??  ;D

And whats up with that 'wrong again' attitude?

o_e_l_e_o posted that comparison link before (not you personally mr. Right)

The removable battery is not proprietary or even similar to a phone's battery, though. It simply uses 2x standard AAA batteries. If anything, that should make it cheaper than using a more expensive rechargeable battery.

Until your child decides to dunk it in their juice, take it in the bath, or leave it outside in the rain. :P

Yeah, and I stand by that. As someone who likes to carry a hardware wallet around in their pocket, a device which is 8 times larger in volume than the Nano S or the Trezor One does not fit my use case. But hey, YMMV.

You obviously have some other problems besides imagining various cults and very negative reactions if someone unequivocally proves to you that you are wrong. First you claim that there are no smartphones the size of the Nokia 3310 - and I'll show you at least 2 such models that can be found by anyone who knows how to use the Internet.

Secondly if you claim that I wrote something then be sure that it is so, I am no Mr. Right - but neither am I o_e_l_e_o  or any other member - at least people in the crypto world should pay attention to details.

Without going further into the OT for me this discussion is over.

I am not scared to write what I think unlike some people.
And I do make mistakes.

Atleast you filled your signature quote mr.Right  ::)
Adios

If it is not a high resolution camera, the cam itself only costs ~1$. That's more than enough for a camera module to scan QR codes.
The batteries are not included i'd guess. And the connectors for the battery are like a few cents.

The hardware cost of the device is definitely way below 10$.




This 20 year old mobile (a.k.a. "new" hardware wallet) also has interfaces to exploit vulnerabilities: The SD slot and the camera (yes, parsing data from a QR code can create vulnerabilities).
It's not like it is unhackable.

Make it for $10 bucks, maybe you get rich.
We can also make a bet and see who will predict correct price for this device.

Trezor is also cheap to make, but they sell it for higher value because they want to make profit and not charity.


Nope.  ;D

I'm guessing the microSD card can be taken out and replaced, although I don't see a practical reason for doing that unless the entire hardware wallet state is stored on it. It could also be that the whole wallet OS is stored on it too, no details about that were given by the website however. They say the hardware is open but what really defines open hardware? An open hardware device sounds like skilled people will be able to reverse engineer the software running it, for the software must also be open for some open hardware to run on it, because by reason software that is proprietary and closed to the vendors making the hardware wallet can't be ran on open hardware.

All that sounds needlessly abstract and there has to be a standard to measure open hardware by. At least to me, someone showcasing open hardware feels like end users can build their own device with similar components from scratch, or at least having the ability to replace every single part inside (like software). No obscure screws or gluing that is not available in retail markets.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think open hardware is inherently safer than conventional hardware, if someone can figure out all the signals sent to pins that make the device do different internal functions. Specifically, someone could build an SD card that sends a different encrypted private key belonging to a hacker when a read for that private key file is queued by the OS, and that's doable since the SD card ultimately handles reading and writing data.

It wouldn't be able to silently replace the private key file at write time with its own (stealing private keys) because the encryption happens in the memory module not in the SD card, so some attack vectors are thwarted but only as long as you can't control the piece of hardware that's responsible for the operation you want to tamper with. Now if someone also replaced the memory in open hardware with a malicious one that retains the private keys unencrypted when the device is trying to encrypt them to save to disk, then stealing the private key becomes possible, just take out the SD card and connect it somewhere else to copy the private key.

And that's just one of several attack vectors that open up by controlling a second component. So eventually, again assuming "open hardware" means people can build a lookalike or replace parts inside, the more components you can replace, the more parts of the device you control which means more security holes pop up, and thinking about security holes in the sense of real holes in a wall, if you keep drilling holes in the wall the whole wall will be gone, and if you have control of replacing over all hardware parts, the entire security system collapses.

Same thing applies to the camera, or any other hardware part for that matter, if someone can replace the camera with one that's programmed to change all QR codes into a set of predefined QR codes corresponding to hacker addresses and transactions.

Without going off topic I'll also mention that both an open CPU architecture, ARM cortex, and closed ones, Intel and AMD, were all vulnerable to a hardware flaw called Spectre that controls hardware how I described it above. And nobody even had to replace hardware parts for the flaw to get in, it was accidentally included in the hardware design. So both "open hardware" and closed hardware are both vulnerable to design errors.

---

The Passport doesn't feel like open hardware at all, because all we can see right now are a list of parts inside and some specifications. Every device has those.

FAQ says it will be $299

https://foundationdevices.com/faqs/?v=7516fd43adaa

Nice find. They hide it deep in FAQ page.
I would never pay this much for any hardware wallet, especially something new like Passport,
but maybe other smarter members will take a challenge and make it 10 times cheaper, and I may buy from them,
but they probably never held soldering iron in their hands.

That's... a deal breaker.  Especially considering this is supposed to be open hardware that you can build yourself, then what justifies the big price tag?

Research, development... production costs of making what will no doubt be a limited run of essentially bespoke devices (even if they are built using "open" hardware).

There is always a fairly significant amount of time, effort and money spent on bringing a product to market... My guess is that they're just trying to recover these costs. Sadly, in a market that has two well established leaders which are already at significantly lower price points, it is going to be difficult for them to sell many units.

Imagine if Apple/Samsung were selling $500 flagship smartphones... and Google/OnePlus showed up with a $1000 smartphone... because that's pretty much what the Passport folks are attempting to do here :-\

Making it worse is that most of the OS is coming from ColdCard and so is a large amount of the hardware design. Yes, they still have to do a lot of work / tweaks but they already know what and how things work, they just have to tweak it to what they want.

Hoping the price drops before release.

-Dave

Ye.. that's a scam.
This device isn't even close to being worth 100$. That's a rip-off.




Not really.
It is more like: We have well known brands having flag ship smartphones for 500$, then a new brand no one knows brings out a new smartphone with the same specs and an outdated appearance, demanding 2000$.
That's an absolutely exorbitant price.

Make it for 10 bucks like you said you can.  :P

I learned math in school so I can count.
Coldcard wallet, as original product is also not so cheap like Trezor or Ledger.
Old calculator style is also not modern and attractive, and it's current price for Coldcard™ Mk3 is $119.97
Is that also a scam?   ::)

It's easy to say imagination price for any product including Passport, but real facts are different.


I would not buy it even if they drop the price, but my prediction is that price can only rise, as presale prices are often lower then regular price.

What the individual parts are actually worth is a meaningless metric really... Personally, I don't think iPhones and Galaxy S20's are worth USD$1000... and their internal components are definitely not worth that much... but the companies think that enough consumers think they are, and based on the retail sales volumes, enough consumers do think they are! :-\

Is it a "scam"?... no, of course it isn't... Companies are free to charge whatever they like for their products, no one is forcing you to buy it. As long as it is a hardware wallet that delivers all the promised specs/features, then it's not a scam... arguably, it is "over-priced"... but it's not a scam ::)

Having said that, I just don't see enough of a value proposition for this device to be worth $299... especially when you stack it up against competing devices like coldcard, trezor, ledger etc... which are less than half the price.

Some updates and images from Passport wallet.

Copper-plated interior frame:
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1319682611384639492

Forged from zinc-alloy:
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1316750097821114369

Video showing navigation menu:
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1317142594326040582

Passport wallet release sneak peak unboxing and testing video for their wallet:
https://youtu.be/_PacNqlz2Co?t=153

I am not sure how they are going to work with firmware updates in future, because Colcard wallet is not open source anymore and they switched to Commons license, so nobody can use their code anymore.

As of now it looks like they have not changed their license on the github page: https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/blob/master/LICENSE
Going with a bit of snark here but if Passport keeps their price @ $299. they probably will not have to worry because they are not going to sell that many.

It's big and expensive. Nice concept but I can't see them moving many at that price. $199 or $149 would be better.

Just my view.

-Dave

That is their old license, and now they have new CC Commons Clause license:
https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/blob/master/COPYING-CC

I agree price is higher, but they use more quality materials than ColdCard and everything is made in US.

On the price / quality thing. Yes...with a but or no...with a however.
It's a security device not thing to be displayed. It is probably going to be kept in a safe / locked cabinet / whatever. So is it better then just a cheap ugly piece of plastic?
So yeah the better quality materials have an advantage but it's still more then 2.5X the price.
Made in USA vs. Made is Canada it's all the same more or less. And I say this as an American. It's not like it's coming from the 3rd world.

As for the license, I wonder if you could argue that since the old one is still up there it's still valid.
Would probably be an interesting court case.

-Dave

Bit of a necro bump here, but I was looking for another post and saw this one.
Checked the https://foundationdevices.com/ site and saw that they are shipping.
BUT they say ship in 7 - 10 days from order, so they might be 3D printing the cases as needed.

Anybody out there order one? As I said a few post up at $299 I am way to cheap to get one.

-Dave

I also don't plan on buying one for $300, but I did see this video a couple weeks back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2zWGCCF8mo

It's a bit drawn out and could use some much better editing, but it gives you a good idea of how the device works. I quite like the validation process of scanning a QR code from their website with the device and then entering validation words, but I'm not sure how easy something like that would be to spoof or bypass. It has a boot counter, which is cool.

However, I really don't like that its standard back up is to a SD card, with the advice to store the decryption key for this back up in a password manager, all the while saying that writing down your seed phrase is only for "experienced users".

Shipping and customs would be expensive for me, but I would order one of this devices if I lived in United States or Canada, just for testing and comparing with other hardware wallets.
Passport is very similar with Colcard wallet, it uses their modified open source code and they have exact same secure element ATECC608A.
I even heard they gave away some free devices for testing and posting video reviews.

Passport hardware wallet by Foundation Devices is now one of the five hardware wallets (Trezor One, Trezor Model T, Bitbox02, KeyKey) that are reproducible when tested by WalletScrutiny.
Even Coldcard still isn't reproducible, and Passport code is based on Coldcard firmware but they created new repository and made some code changes (it would be interesting to compare two repositories).
Passport has been audited by Keylabs (https://foundationdevices.com/security/) and there is bug bounty program if you find any bugs in their firmware or software

Latest Passport firmware version is  v1.0.6 and only thing that is stopping me to buy one of this nokia-like devices is price of $299 :/
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/releases

https://i.imgur.com/X7vax73.jpg

You can read full report and analysis in this link:
https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/passport/

I had forgotten all about this wallet, and I thank you for bumping this thread--in particular for showing the image with the "I do not consent to the search of this device" sticker, which I had to look for on EFF's website.  I love that, though I don't know what legal weight, if any, it carries as a statement to LEOs.  I also wasn't aware of the existence of EFF or much about the Free Software Foundation but bookmarked both of their sites to look at later.

But yeah, for as ugly-looking a wallet as this one is (it looks uglier to me than the first time I posted in this thread), the price is just way too steep.  By a factor of around 3, I'd say.  If it was going for $100 or less and I needed a hardware wallet or a crypto collectible, I might consider it if I had the extra money.  But $299?  Hell no.

It does seem expensive compared with other hardware wallets... but if it really does what it says on the tin, then it's a fairly decent solution.

It really does have some nice features, but given that I already have 3 or 4 hardware wallets, I can't really justify the $299 price tag just for a couple of "nice to have, but not essential" features :-\

Maybe if Bitcoin moons to $100k I'll splash out for shits and giggles ;)

I always liked small electronic devices even before hardware wallets, and bunch of those devices are just collecting dust and maybe I used them only few times in my life.
This reminds me about one funny 2020 tweet from Jameson Lopp regarding possible problem with his hardware wallets collection :D,
but having multiple hardware wallets can be used for improving security with multisig, and one device will die sooner or later so you always have replacement ready.

https://i.imgur.com/fokG1tS.jpg
https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1288173904637435904

I agree with what @ETFbitcoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5265233.msg57723068#msg57723068) said, but another reason ^{[apart from being overpriced - IMO, it's worth around $150 at most]} why only a few people have bought it so far, has to be because of its limited cryptocurrency support ^{[personally, I only use BTCitcoin but that's not the case with a lot of users out there]}.

---

Does anybody know what's the "surprise gift (https://foundationdevices.com/passport/details/)" that's included on the FE ones?

---

Just found out it comes with an interesting ^{[probably not for everyone out there, but it brings back good old memories]} "secret (https://youtu.be/bqQYqaaC6_s?t=449)" menu.

I think this could be free Bitcoin whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto looking like a passport  (I hope Faketoshi won't sue them for this :D), but I am not sure if that is actual surprise gift.
There are some QR codes in package coming in package so it could be some free sats or it's just links for Foundation website.

https://i.imgur.com/GduIgCR.jpg

Yeah, I saw that hidden famous retro game that every old Nokia user knows ;)

How did I know it was going to be "Snake" before I even clicked on the link? :D :D :D

Probably because the device looks like an old Nokia phone :P ::)


And honestly... I'm kinda proud of myself for NOT having a collection like Jameson... I've been soooo restrained with hardware wallets. I've had shopping carts all loaded up and got to checkout and was like "No! I don't need another one" hahaha.

But why? Every extra piece of code has the potential to cause a bug or present a vulnerability. Why add in gimmicks like a snake game which no one is ever going to use?

You were right ^{[it's a nice touch]}... Found a podcast ^{[by their CEO - Zach Herbert]} that confirms what's actually the surprise gift:

• Link (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s8-e5-zach-herbert-on-foundation-devices-passport/id1451766883?i=1000513984394) ^{[skip to 1:00:50]}

:D

There might be more ^{[link (https://twitter.com/ptaranat/status/1395472906163994628)]}, but not sure how reliable it is.

To justify the price tag?
Something to do while waiting for your transaction to confirm?
It really is an old Nokia under it all?

Seriously, in something like this if the code is not needed, you don't put it in. The last thing you want in something that is supposed to be all about security, is stuff that is not related to security.

Yes is cool but, so not needed.

-Dave

That guy says he worked on the project for a while. Don't see what his motivation would be to make something like that up.

On further examination, there is indeed an entire page on their GitHub which codes for this Tetris game: https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/blob/b26d45bdeb240a7f631037b71c149f57f1d8c5fc/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules/stacking_sats.py

It also screams of unprofessionalism to me. You want people to store thousands or even millions of dollars worth of cryptocurrency on your device, but then you say "Lol, we made it play Snake and Tetris! Next update we'll add Frogger too!" Get that bloatware off the device, get the code down to the minimum required to function to minimize any attack surface, and focus on developing your security features instead of implementing stupid games.

What other stupid "hidden features" have they included?

Idea was probably to hide the fact that you are using hardware wallet, and I actually like the idea of hiding hardware wallet with fake game console or phone device, but maybe they should add two alternative version of firmware, one clean and other with games included.

I know one more hardware wallet called ledger that are adding bunch of shit features with fake dex swap exchanges, supporting bunch of altcoins, they had multiple leaks, they proven their unprofessionalism to everyone, and people still buy that junk.

I think you know very well that coins are not actually stored on that device, only keys are.

If the device looked like a Nintendo Switch or a modern phone, then that idea might have some merit. But the device looks nothing like either of them, and says "Foundation" across the back, so any attacker can discover what it really is with 5 seconds and a Google search.

Don't know why you are bringing Ledger in to this, but none of that is in any Ledger firmware. Don't want to use any altcoins? Then don't install those apps. Don't want to use their exchanges service? Then don't use Ledger Live. None of that presents an attack surface to their hardware wallets. Hiding "features" on the device is a bad start. Hiding completely pointless features like Tetris on the device is just plain stupid.

My point is the same.

I am still using old style phone and it's working perfectly fine, looks similar with Passport wallet.

Do you know what exactly is hidden in ledger firmware? Could be backdoor or hidden spyware.
You don't know because it is closed source, and I mentioned it as a prime example of unprofessionalism in hardware wallets (1 million leaked customer data).

Similar, sure, but different enough to arouse suspicion. No phone from that era had a camera, and no phone is powered by 2x AAA batteries. It might pass a cursory glance, but a 5 second inspection will reveal to any thief the device is not a phone.

And I never said otherwise. I've made my feelings regarding Ledger and their database leak well known, but their mistakes don't given other hardware wallet companies a free pass to do what they like. The fact remains that including completely unnecessary code on a hardware wallet device poses unnecessary security risks.

I concur... you cannot argue the fact that adding unnecessary code means that you are adding unnecessary risk.

Sure, hide snake in your graphical calculator or the control panel on your fridge or something... but a device that is meant to be a security device should really include only the bare minimum required to perform the desired tasks.

I don't see how hidden games enable one to manage their crypto holdings securely ::)

Nobody said that games make crypto holdings more secure, but adding support for bunch of altcoins in hardware wallet is much worse, especially if you are not using them, because they need to be constantly updated.
All hardware wallets that are not proving Bitcoin only firmware are way less secure than having Passport wallet with games, and as far as I know only ColdCard, Trezor, Keystone and Bitbox02 have BTC only firmware available.
I remember example of hackers being able to steal your Bitcoin from ledger wallet because of flaw with some of their forked altcoin app isolation bypass:
https://monokh.com/posts/ledger-app-isolation-bypass

I remember this issue and it was much more severe than what Ledger was ready to admit.
However, if you scroll down on that report you shared to the section that describes the "Attack methods", you will see some examples how that vulnerability could have been used in practice.

They say:

Invited by whom? You shouldn't trust and use dubious services and websites whether it's about crypto or anything else or accept invites and click on links from people you don't know. Unless you fiddle around with such things, you would have been safe from the attack.

I am not sure what exactly is meant with this. Maybe it's about connecting your Ledger hardware to a DEX. This is in my opinion the most dangerous attack method. If you had to connect to an unpopular exchange for whatever reason and they had ways to steal your bitcoin.

Whoever is involved in crypto should know by now where and how to download the official software, what phishing is, and how to check the authenticity of what they just downloaded. That's now possible to do with Ledger Live (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5355418.0) as well. ;D Don't fall for fake apps and your bitcoins will stay safe. 

It's directly connected with firmware of ledger device, there are even some shitcoins not even supported by ledger live app and you can use them with ledger.
Do you use your smartphone that can store bunch of games, applications, maybe crypto wallets, google or iPhone tracking with other stuff, and do you also consider it unprofessional?

Yes, it's much more risky and dangerous supporting bunch of shitcoins than adding some game.
Please tell me one scenario were someone will use this game to steal your coins or keys, when we know that Passport (like Coldcard) have no cables and it's never connected with your computer or internet in any way.

Reminds me of when I got a Game Boy emulator running on my 1st or maybe 2nd generation (I can't really remember) iPod back in the day. :P

The Passport device has not been extensively pen tested like Ledger or Trezor devices have been, so there is no way as of yet of knowing if that is true.

Because that is what a smartphone is meant to do. The whole point of a smartphone is to be multi-purpose and do near enough anything you want it do. The whole point of a hardware wallet is to do one thing and one thing only.

Who knows? The device hasn't been tested yet. Airgapped cold storage is never connected with the internet in any way, and yet it is not invulnerable to attacks.

It's fine if you want to use Bitcoin only... I can understand that, as I'm not a huge fan of altcoins either. Unfortunately, they're not going to go away... the values on coinmarketcap make that plainly obvious. The top 90+ coins all have marketcaps over $1 Billion dollars.

People are going to want to use these coins. So, as a commercial operator, your choices are:

1. Offer support (and hopefully put dev resources into making them secure as opposed to coding up unnecessary games) and potentially gain a customer.
or
2. Don't offer support and potentially lose a customer to your competitor.

Also, I suspect that the vast majority of altcoins supported are actually just ERC20 tokens anyway.


It's entirely plausible that a glitch in the game code (such as entering a specific key combo or achieving a high enough score to cause an overflow etc) could result in an attacker achieving something equivalent to "root" access on the device.

Is this actually possible... who knows? The point is, that adding "fun" hidden easter eggs like this, is not necessary... the dev effort would be much better spent ensuring that the "necessary" code is secure.

No they are not meant to be used only for one thing, same like airgapped computers are not meant only for one thing.
You can use many hardware wallets as password managers or similar like yubikey device for signing on websites in more secure way.

They are using well tested mostly Coldcard open source code that is audited, and I think they have bounty (https://foundationdevices.com/security/) reward program for hacking them and finding bugs, so everyone is welcomed to do it. Go for it :)

Might also help to get the price down a but if they weren't paying devs to code, test, and implement games. :P

Which falls under their one purpose of securely storing and allowing you to safely interact with private keys, passwords, or codes. Not for playing games.

I don't disagree that adding altcoin support is risky too. Every new piece of code you put on the device poses a security risk. But altcoin code at least serves a purpose (even if it is a purpose I don't care for), and even better if it is entirely optional to install it in the first place. Pre-installed games are risky bloatware.

That is not exactly one purpose mixing private keys with password manager and logging on websites, and airgapped computers are by your definition even less secure because they all have games and other ''bloatware'' installed, and smartphone is even less secure so you should never use it again.
Anyone can find much more bugs in airgapped linux OS full of all kinds of software, yet people use it all the time with Electrum wallet, and they can play a game if the want.
Hardware wallets are just mini computers not some miracle devices with one strict use case.

If you choose an OS which is filled with bloatware and start installing games on your airgapped computer, then yes, it is much less secure.

Yes, smartphones are far less secure, which is why they are classed as hot wallets. A smartphone is poor benchmark for comparing a hardware wallet to, though.

If you want a wallet which can play games, store arbitrary data, display pictures, whatever, then that's absolutely your choice. There are plenty of devices on the market to choose from. But you can't possibly argue that putting games on a hardware wallet is a good use of time nor that doing so is 100% risk free.

However, even if the security portion of the discussion is removed, it's still an issue because every time you install something / add something there is another chance for something to go wrong.

There may be no security issues with the snake game. But what about an edge case where if you play for longer then 'x' time or have some stupid high score then there is a memory storage issue that can cause data corruption.

-Dave

So, I just read through this thread since I find the Foundation Passport very interesting.
I will state my thoughts and opinions as requested per the topic's title and am happy to discuss!

First of all, big elephant in the room: design. It's polarizing, I get it. I do like the design and all devices I have used / tested so far had some bigger or smaller drawbacks. I like that it's larger, that it has a larger screen and easy input method and normal batteries, which also increase the size. It's also not as large as it seems from pictures, when you see it in a video in someone's hand.

I do agree that this is not the best thing to carry around every day! :D
If that's your use case, feel free to use something slimmer.
I'd also like to add to the 'portability debate' that a person can have more than 1 hardware wallet.
Like a Trezor Model T on the go in their pocket, a BitBox02 in a safe and a Passport in the desk drawer.

Debate vs ColdCard: when publishing hardware and software with a license that allows to reuse it commercially, don't bitch around when someone actually does it. If you put it all out open source to allow for white-box audits, but don't want to allow people to use it, use the right license. I also think the whole community can benefit from multiple devices using a similar codebase: analysis results of one device help to find bugs on all devices using the same / similar code and both teams can work together at ironing out bugs and security flaws. That's kind of the spirit of open source, but the CC guys don't seem to get it.

Extra bloat code: I would really like to see the option to get this device without the games. I still think a wallet with multi-coin support is less secure than a Bitcoin-only device with a little game. It will be harder to induce bugs that somehow lead to a practical vuln which puts funds as risk through a game rather than through the implementations of tons of shitty coins' software. For example, the game will most probably never do any calls to the secure element and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, I don't want a device storing part of my wealth to play games, have tons of code for hundreds of insecure shitcoins that I will never touch and act as a 2FA device. Who would want to plugin their wallet daily, be potentially hacked via USB, to log into websites? Use a dedicated device or a 2FA app.

Security: Since ColdCard has been around for a while and lots of code is taken from it (as I explained earlier) this brings the nice benefit of giving some confidence about the reused code, that that 'should be fine'. Of course, it remains to be seen if the new components and alterations to CC codebase are all good and secure. It's nice that it uses the (imo) best security chip out there, that also the other big competitors use.

Materials: It seems much better built than the ~100-200€ stuff I tested so far (various Trezors, Ledgers, both BitBoxes). I am not sure how the screen holds up, but for example BitBox02 scratches up like there's no tomorrow. And I handle mine like a baby (or better).

Price: 300$ is a lot of money, but competitors like BitBox02 cost 120€, Trezor Model T 160€ - without camera, with small screen, no metal parts. I'm sure there is a market for the Passport, despite the price. People buy a piece of steel for 65€ from ShiftCrypto to backup their seed phrase, and even much more for the same thing in a 'premium package' (which I think is what Foundation Devices are going for as well) when getting a backup kit from CryptoTag (https://cryptotag.io/products/). The Passport literally costs less than the highest-end CryptoTag, fwiw. Yes, you can accomplish the same thing with a 10$ hardware store run.

In conclusion, yes, it's expensive and the game bloat is a disappointment. I'm looking for alternatives though that offer:
* All open source hardware + software but with a good security chip
* Airgapped operation (ColdCard has no camera..)
* Preferably battery operated
* Bitcoin only

Lol, me too, and right now I have a habit of buying thumb drives I don't really need, since I have everything I'll ever need backed up on one single USB drive.  I just think they're cool, and so are HW wallets.  I'd probably start collecting them if I had money to spare.  As it is, I don't splurge on thumb drives all that often, but each one is something I don't really need.  I've also kept every cell phone I've ever had (and posted a pic of one of them earlier in this thread), and they're kind of neat to look at once in a while.

I've had the coinkite website bookmarked for a long time and have been meaning to buy a ColdCard wallet, and I'd even be interested in a Passport, too if I had the money and it was priced right.  I still think it's ugly, but so is that cellphone I have from 2001.

Note: I missed your post and am only replying to it now since I saw your link back to this thread in your recent post in the ColdCard thread.

This is obviously the case of developers ego being hurt and they saw a threat of someone making potentially better product that would hurt their business model.
Imagine if Satoshi changed the Bitcoin license when first forks appeared...oh wait that is why we have Craig Faketoshi Wright for changing btc whitepaper licenses.
I think that passport devs even found some bug in coldcard code and reported it, that is perfectly normal in open source space.
Coldcard looks like a cheap plastic calculator and nobody can tell me that it looks better than passport device, but than again you should not buy hardware wallets for their looks.

I would personally not give $300 + shipping from America for passport wallet, but I would like to play with it (not actual games) and test it how it works.

Don't get me talking about my other ''revolutionary'' devices I never use, like electric lemon juicers and food blenders  :P
I have collection of old mobile phones and I still think that most new smartphones are big ugly bricks and surveillance tracking devices, and that is not just my opinion.

I didn’t know about that, but that’s exactly what I would find so great if we could have different hardware wallets from different brands helping each other to create the best, most secure firmware! Like the Linux kernel that various distros are based on.

I must say, sure, looks shouldn’t be too much up the priority list for a hw wallet, but one thing I value a lot is build quality. I do like the BitBox02 for example but damn, that screen scratches super fast. There are vastly different types of plastic and they clearly chose a very soft one. If I can pay more and get a more durable device I say it’s worth it, but I have yet to see something about build quality of the Passport screen. However the inside is out of metal fwiw.

I’m very tempted to get one to test out as well. They have distributors in various countries and I might trust those especially with the supply chain validation process done during setup.
The price is not such a big issue for me. If I’ll get it, I’ll make sure to post an honest extensive review here.

Regarding collecting; I do have some important old devices myself, it’s cool to even hold an iPhone 4 in your hand again after a few years. With that said, I agree that most modern phones are way too large and heavy. Really do go ahead and compare your smartphone with an older mobile, they’re much more portable. Since Android is getting more and more Google shitshow by the day, and Apple is all closed off (no way to install foss directly from GitHub for example), I’m tempted to go back to a dumb phone and use computers / laptops for internet related things.
Sometimes I think it’s actually healthier not to have internet access when out of office / home in general, but thay’s another topic. (Do we have such a topic here? Would be happy to talk more about it.)

Passport wallet sold all their foundation edition devices, but they now have special discount if preordering now for $199, and you should receive your device around February 2022.
This is a nice $100 discount and good chance for anyone who planned to buy this wallet, offer is limited for only 2500 devices and they plan to introduce some improvements and firmware updates:
https://foundationdevices.com/2021/11/passport-founders-edition-is-sold-out/

Damn, I guess that's what happens to early adopters ;D Paid the full price, eh, at least this way I didn't have to wait ::)
Review will come when I find more time. Still need to try some aspects like multisig.

To be honest, 21% discount on 200 bucks would put a second Passport extremely closely to a BitBox'es price. I might for real get a second one, but it depends on what has been improved and what not. I would e.g. like to carry the Passport around daily but the screen will probably scratch too fast (it already has a few ones - more about this in my future review).

Oh no, I don't like that felling when I see a good discount for something I (just) purchased in full price  ;D

Same here, I also have a few devices ready for some testing and reviews, but I need time and some extra motivational push for writing something with meaning.
I don't want to turn into secret agent jerry007 8)

Top secret advice to avoid scratches, never take of protective foil from devices, or you could just buy those old nokia phone protective cases.
Maybe even write some feedback to Passport developers to make improvements for next version.

Exactly! :) ::) Also, who would have thought that they'd release a new version shortly after selling a mere 1000 units of version one. However, innovation and improvements are also always good to see. And I like that they give that 21% discount. I wouldn't get v2 for 200, but for ~170 I might get it, e.g. to store somewhere else for multisig and stuff like that.

Who's jerry007?

It came without such foil though :o Nokia case actually sounds like a good idea, but keep in mind the Passport is way smaller than it always looks. It's really tiny; many people criticizing it being large and bulky clearly haven't seen it besides other items or even tried it in person. So it might be too loose in such a phone case.

jerry007 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1152036) is one of the members of my personal ignore list club ;D

Yeah I know, I was joking about that and I saw size comparison picture with other hardware wallets last year.
Paradox is that today smartphones are usually bigger than early mobile phones, and they track your every move much better.

https://i.imgur.com/ikLWAKb.png

I still think it's too high a price point. But that's just me. I know I'm cheap. And don't get me wrong I Will never say a business should not make as much money as they can for as long as they can. But that does not mean they are going to get my money.

I also don't like the power requirements, and don't get the entire power draw thing, from https://support.foundationdevices.com/user-manual/batteries:


I can run a cold card and others that require power with a 9V to USB adapter for almost as long and it's uses any old 9V.
The $170 edition of the Kobo comes with the rechargeable batter pack.
And so on. Sounds like they are either pimping for Enegizer or messed up the power requirements.

-Dave

Let's compare Passport current $199 preorder price with other popular hardware wallets.
Trezor Model T is around $200 depending on your location, they announced possible shortage of devices soon, and it doesn't have secure element chip.
Ledger devices are around $70 and $135 plus shipping, but I would never buy this closed source titanic hardware wallet.
Coldcard Mk3 is still around $130 but it's not open source anymore, and it will be deprecated soon and stop production because Mk4 is coming out soon, and I am sure it will be more expensive.
Cobo is now rebranded to Keystone and price is around $170 and Bitbox02 wallet is around $135, so I think that Passport price is decent and nobody is forcing you to use Energizer batteries.

You keep saying that Coldcard is not open source, it is; it's just not FREE open source. They have a github and it can be reproduced.
You can change it to whatever you like, you just can't sell it. I can download it and see what it does, I can compile it and see it's the same as what they are giving as a bin file and I can change what I want and give it to whomever I want. I just can't sell it.

And it's not just the energizer thing for the power it's the entire way they are doing it. The entire "designed to work with lithium AAA" is just bad power configuration. And "If using rechargeable, constant voltage lithium AAAs, Passport's battery indicator may not be accurate." So they can't figure out battery management in the most basic way? My cheap ass $39 discount store wireless door monitor could do that. 

For less money Keystone come with a rechargeable battery and a fingerprint sensor and a big screen for us older people :-). For even less money you can get the base model that does not have the rechargeable battery / fingerprint sensor.

I'm not at all saying that Passport is a bad product. Just that asking $200 for it seems a bit high.

-Dave

Open source has nothing to do with reproducibility and I can find you a bunch of open source and wallets files that can't be reproduced, even some well known OS wallets can't be reproduced.
Definition is clear, you can find it on Open Source Initiative website and CC aka Common Clause that is NOT open source license:
Please read this sources:
https://opensource.org/osd and https://commonsclause.com/

Dude let me tell you something, most batteries starting from AA to ones you can find in electric cars are Lithium based.
And that 9V hack thing you are doing with Coldcard wallet is only possible with Coldpower adapter that you need to buy from them for $25  :P

Yeah Keystone has a nice big screen and it's expected to be little cheaper when it's 100% made in China, compared to Passport that is manufacture in United States.
If you like stuff made in China, go for it, and with current inflation and money printing in US, $200 already worth much less than last year and it will probably be much worse in near future.

I agree; $200 is maybe 'a bit high' but not too high in my opinion. $300 was too high though, but I'm still happy with the device ;D
I'll talk about pricing and battery issues in my review (sry for postponing it all the times - busy around here). I use AAA's from the discounter and they indeed only hold for like 3h with screen on full brightness (it's not very bright). It seems weird that it pulls so much power, but I've not owned other battery-powered hardware wallets so far. From an electrical engineering standpoint though, I don't understand where all that power is going. It's not like it was doing super-heavy computations; I was just stamping my seed backup directly from the words on the screen since I'm paranoid that if I write them on paper and use the paper to do the backup I have a) 1 extra step where something can be copied wrongly and b) the paper may be reassembled and stuff, so I'd have to burn it and I didn't feel like doing that either ::)
Around 2h of stamping the backup and another hour of playing around with it and it was pretty much empty (ballpark numbers).

What I don't like about Keystone is that it's so large to be honest, so that's purely subjective. I don't really mind if Passport was made in China as long as it was flashed after being shipped to the US and it has the build verification procedure during setup. Also that it's probably running a full OS like Android (or is it not? it looks like it visually..) poses a larger attack surface than something with a lighter firmware.

It reminds me on smartphones, it is bigger than other wallets and I can criticize all hardware wallets, they all have some flaws including Keystone and Passport, but I think they are both good devices.
After checking the size of Keystone 112mm x 65mm x 18mm I see that it's almost the same size as old Nokia phone 3310 with 112mm x 65mm x 18mm.
You can see size comparison with other hardware wallets here:
https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Nano-S-vs-Trezor-One-vs-Nano-X-vs-Passport-vs-Nokia-3310/15960538824512262

Yeah, that is really what I don't get. I wonder if they have the camera always running or something. In theory it does not matter since how long are you REALLY running it for. But it makes you wonder where the power is going. As I said I have a remote door monitor with a 6" color screen that runs for easily a day if I forget to turn it off when I leave. Yes it's 4 AA and not 2 AAA but it's also is powering a RF receiver and a much bigger screen.


Nah, that's just marketing from them. It's been a while but you used to see 9V and 4AA and a whole bunch of other adapters to 5V USB chargers in airport shops. They were not rare and no idea if they still exist, but they were there and common a few years ago. I probably still have a few from the mid 200x years buried someplace. Since phones have become such power hogs it's not like you can actually get any charge from that stuff anymore.
Edit to add: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265402692187 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/393455399062
For the people who want to go fully offgrid: https://www.ebay.com/itm/193570338681

-Dave

Solar battery chargers are also a great option to have, they are cheap, portable and you are can use them even in cases when there is no electricity.

I saw on Passport github page they are working on improving some issues with battery power in batch2 release, so maybe that will also reduce power usage.
Things that use most power in Passport device are main STM chip, secure element chip, LCD display and camera, but maybe it's something related with firmware.
Boards are divided in three parts, Main board (Processor and secure element) Camera board and Battery board (North and South), so maybe they could do better optimization for battery board.

It's probably the secret 5G transmitter that is sending all your private keys to Bill Gates so he can fund the NWO :P

/s


Seriously tho, that seems like pretty poor battery life... that's somewhat unfortunate for a $200 device.

New updates and improvements are coming in batch2 of Passport wallet with improved electromechanical design that is 16% thinner.
Some people complained that screen was easy to scratch, maybe even n0nce was one of them, so batch2 will be switching to glass with hardness of 8H, that is often used as tempered glass screen protection for smartphones.
This will protect from scratches and it will be bonded with display for better clarity.
Documentation is now moved to new website with setup guide, faq, etc:
https://docs.foundationdevices.com/

I did a few basic measurements; it seems it's not actually pulling a ton of power (though it should be possible to get that down as well), but the main issue is that the unit stops functioning when the batteries drop below I believe something like 1.3V.

Still having to write up the whole review; it will all be in there when I get to it.

So it's not actually draining the full 1.5V in a couple hours, it's draining 0.2 and not booting up after that. It makes you wonder if they even have a decent boost circuit at all or just running 3.3V electronics off 2 batteries LOL :D

I did contact them about the screen indeed; and reviewers didn't mention it at all so it may be possible they listened to my feedback which would be sick. On one hand I'm a bit disappointed a second version comes so quick and such a big discount, but on the other hand I'm excited they listen to customer feedback so much and improve many things in a short time.
(Looking at Ledger Nano S, which is many years old and still the best Ledger device for example ;))

They have all schematics for their device released in public on their github page so  you can check out what exactly they are using:
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-electronics

Maybe you should contact Passport developers and ask them for free replacement and batch2 version for testing, or they can provide you just with screen replacement ;)
Improved device will not going to be released before February 2022 so you still have time for application.

Mmm it does have regulators. https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-electronics/blob/master/Main%20Board/Documentation/Schematic%20Print/SCH_FD-JL-PCB-MB_E1.PDF
Still weird, that the device completely stops working when the battery still has like 90% of the energy in it. On the other hand, I've never designed anything around AA / AAA batteries myself, maybe it's much different from using rechargeable ones. But those, you can drive down to very low voltages and still boost easily to something your project can still use and run.

Hahah, I mean $200 with the discount code would already be a good deal but I guess maybe I can get a 'review sample'.
On batch 1 I really wanted to buy it with my own money to give a completely unbiased review. But v2, eh, maybe. I'd buy it anyway, as is visible from my post history where I already said I was going to get one ;)

That probably explains why they advise using "1.5V Constant Voltage" rechargeable batteries (https://support.foundationdevices.com/user-manual/batteries)... A lot of the "long life" rechargeable batteries often run below 1.5V, which seems likely to cause issues with this device. :-\

Hopefully this is something they can rectify moving forward.

Yup, I remember last time I used rechargeable AA's they were 1.3V-ish when fully charged. I mean, anyone with the time and knowledge can read the old and new schematics and probably see if the situation will be better right off the bat. In my opinion, there has to be something seriously wrong if the boost circuit needs more than 2.6V to work; lots of products (e.g. your phone) are able to drain batteries to a minimum while still functioning, so I see no reason why this shouldn't work for Passport. It's great when products have open hardware; this kind of issue should be spottable from 'looking at it'.

Yeah, don't be like ledger making stuff closed source and hiding everything like a snake and then wondering wtf they have so much problems along the way.
Seriously, you should contact Passport Foundation devices and write your suggestion for improving power management, I have a feeling you will get new device for free  :D
I don't know if you played snake on your device, but you could tell them to make clean version without games and they could also join bitcointalk forum.

I mean it seems they did already improve the power management didn't they? When I find the time, I'll try to compare old and new schematics and see if the improvements that I can spot 'statically' look good. Regarding 'free'; I decided to not ask for a review sample or anything, but I will be getting the Founders Edition discount, even though I ordered through a (official) reseller, hence it didn't arrive automatically. Also, only orders directly from Foundation are eligible for that discount, one thing to keep in mind for anyone reading here.. :)

Suggesting to offer a fw without shenanigans is a good idea, I will forward it, as well as the idea of creating a bitcointalk profile! Do note though, that I don't have any special contact with them or anything, I can just email their support staff.
So I would actually encourage if multiple people suggested this (especially the option to install a 'clean' fw, similar to Shift Crypto's 'Bitcoin only Firmware') via E-Mail. More messages means more interest = better chance of this happening. And it's also something easy to do, even for FE devices.

I am not sure is power management is changed and I didn't study schematics.
All I know is that they changed size of device making it thinner and they improved glass making it better and less scratchable.

Let's see how powerful and convincing you are, because it's more likely they will listen someone who actually owns their Passport device, and not some tech freak like me ;)

I just dug around a bit and found out the slimmer design seems to be due to switching to Li-Ion batteries.

To be honest, I really like it when wallets run on AA / AAA batteries since you find those literally anywhere in the world. I would definitely prefer batteries where possible, since that would still allow me to choose to go rechargeable by buying rechargeable AA / AAA's if I really want.

I'm confident they'll listen to any constructive criticism from anyone in the community and not just existing customers - at least I hope they do; that's what I'd do... :)

And this is a great idea for a start-up: to release a hardware wallet in a phone case  :).  I mean, phone mimicry. Can release a device under the guise of a chinese phone with a similar design to old phones. When asked what it is?, it will be possible to answer that this is just a telephone and will save you from unnecessary inquiries.

As you can see from the picture, wallet Passport is already close to it.

I don't know if you noticed one more update from Passport Foundation that is less important, they are rebranding with new triangle style logo (three chords arranged in a circle), so don't get confused about that.
New batch2 devices will probably have this new logo, and they explained new mission they have in their latest blog post.
Selling 1000 devices for first year is not bad at all, but it can't really be compared with thousands or millions of devices sold by other HW manufacturers.

https://i.imgur.com/3NWPYJq.jpg
https://foundationdevices.com/2021/12/foundations-new-logo-and-mission/

Regardless of the story behind their new logo, personally, I prefer the previous one more...

• While I was reading through the same blog post, the following part caught my attention:
  
  
  • Quote from: https://foundationdevices.com/2021/12/foundations-new-logo-and-mission/
    But over the coming months and years we’ll release a suite of hardware and software that makes it easy to become a sovereign individual.
    It's either some accessories or a knock-down version of Passport ^{[I hope it's the latter, so I can get my hands on one of them]}.

---

It appears they'll be adding support for Taproot soon:

I don't really care what logo they are using, it's how device works that is more important, but ledger also changed their logo recently so it must be a new trend  ;)

I think they are working on creating new Passport branded smartphones, laptops and OS that are privacy oriented, like we saw with Pinephone, Pinebook, CalyxOS, GrapheneOS, etc.
It's just my speculation, but I guess they will have problems with making any new hardware devices because if the chip shortages continue.

Yeah I saw that, it's about time after ledger and trezor did it, and they are also planning of adding dice roll entropy seed verification in 2022, maybe something similar like Coldcard and Keystone are doing.

To be honest, seeing more Linux-based smartphones would be great. Some more players / competition in that field is needed.
If it's just their own take of such an OS for existing Linux phones, it would still be interesting to see what they come up with!

In my mind, it's also possible they'll first release some smaller 'gadget' type accessories when talking about 'hardware' - that can be a very vague thing, like steel backup plates and other backup items. I got this idea from what ShiftCrypto started doing a good while ago now.

ShiftCrypto Ultimate Backup bundle (https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/ultimate-backup-bundle-31/)

I am seeing several mainstream Linux operating system constantly working on mobile version OS, so I think it's possible but road will not be easy and you can bet that phones will not work perfectly.
I never owner pinephone (I would like to have one) and I never tested installing Linux on some old phone so I don't know how it works in daily life.

I saw them asking on their community channels for feedback what would people want to see next device/gadget coming from, and yeah it's possible they will just add metal plates,
or maybe they will piss off Coinkite and Coldcard again and make their own version of Opendime or Blockclock.
I think it's important to have some cheap banknote option for Bitcoin like Opendime, Satodime or Tangem.
It's going to be fun and interesting watching reaction of NVK after that  :D

https://i.imgur.com/vKY2VlE.jpg

No it wasn't, but I noticed one other hardware wallet that really has Tetris game called Stacking Stats and I am bringing some screenshots for the first time.
Available also in same device secret menu are Snakamoto game, Internet Browser (not real) and Screenshots  :D
I expect this extra features to be removed in next generation Passport, it's time for more serious approach if they want to survive new kid on the Block (ex Square) hardware wallet from Jack Dorsey.
Other competition is also not sleeping and they are getting serious, but I think that ledger is now in self destruction mode.

https://i.imgur.com/xKcXTwW.jpg
https://twitter.com/gq0/status/1481513688720891905

Block released a hardware wallet? Can't find anything about this topic tbh.

It's not released yet, but I am following news about that and I saw that Jack Block posted job offerings for people to work in multiple cities across United States (San Francisco, New York, etc).
Hardware Wallet Business Lead (https://jobs.smartrecruiters.com/Square/743999776548446-hardware-wallet-business-lead);  Global Fulfillment & Logistics Lead, Hardware Wallet (https://jobs.smartrecruiters.com/Square/743999797505237-global-fulfillment-logistics-lead-hardware-wallet), and few more but I can't find links for them anymore.

Back on the Passport wallet topic...they are preparing some BIG changes for batch2 and they say more information will be revealed in February.

Interesting! Someone said Block builds good hardware or something like that; aren't they just an 'umbrella' company for Square, CashApp and TIDAL? What did they build so far? (TIDAL LN payments eta wen @jack)

Regarding Passport, my review is finally done :) It's possible I'll add a few points here and there and if you have open questions, feel free to comment or direct message me and I'll check those things out & add them to the review.

Square just rebranded and changed name to Block, and it's true about quality hardware they make, working on point of sale solutions they had to make POS hardware and accessories for that.
You can check on their website devices like Square Terminal, Square Reader for cards, Square Register and Stand, they even have Registers and complete kits available.
They obviously know how to make hardware, and Block wallet will be just one more in this list.
Checkout their website:
https://squareup.com/us/en/hardware

I am checking that out right now, and I will comment later :)

Oh that's cool, definitely going to check it tomorrow! I wasn't aware of the fact Square was making so much hardware already. Competition is the best way for development / progress. ;)

Cool, thanks in advance! It got quite long, I admit, and I even wanted to put in even more stuff ::)

One more preview image posted for upcoming Passport hardware wallet batch2, and this time we are checking it from the inside and looking at pcb.
Passport is using the same micro processor model STM32H753 ARM Cortex, and usb-c port is used only for power charging of lithium ion battery.
I couldn't identify from posted images if they are still using old ATECC608A secure element or they switched to something new, maybe updated version ATECC608B.
Packaging is also updated, but I am not interested in that honestly speaking.

https://i.imgur.com/jBvnvuF.jpg
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1501707701910450181

Hey, the version 2 was revealed earlier today!
https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1501943486450323457/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNft7w_UcAQqZ5F?format=jpg&name=largehttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNft7wxVgAAyZp8?format=jpg&name=large

It looks fine to me. A bit aggressive / flashy honestly, but I think I can live with it.
Would have preferred the old design 1:1 just thinner. Especially since with the thinner size and better battery, I might use this as a real daily-driver, so any inconspicuousness would have been appreciated.

IPS screen sounds good; also interesting they give you a microSD adapter for both types of phone OSes as well as seemingly put in a lot of work into a phone app so that you can set the wallet up and even update it completely without computer.

While this seems unnecessary for most of us here, it's actually going to be great for many people who just don't own a computer. It's not even really about money, but I do know people who simply don't need and wouldn't use a PC; they have e.g. an iPad to watch movies in bed and a phone for everyday usage. They don't sit in forums for hours, write code or long essays, so they don't need a PC. :D
I am also not sure why you would use the SD over QR for transactions, when using a phone, but I guess it's cool that they include that adapter so you can update the wallet with your phone. It might even come in handy if you're traveling light and want to install a critical security update quickly.

I am checking it right now and it looks cool to me, only one thing I don't like is they kept old 608a secure element that has some small security issues, compared to improved 608b version.
They said this issues are not affecting anything related with functions of hardware wallet, but I think they had problem with supply chain and 608b version is out of stock.

It's interesting they are shipping wallet together with Industrial-grade microSD card (much better than regular SD cards) and adapters for iOS and Android.
Included battery and power cable are normal thing, but I am interested to hear review and comparison with older device.

IPS is much better for eyes and it's better than regular display, but you probably won't use hardware wallet non-stop. :)
Whats more important is ultra-hard glass on top of screen so it should be much better than in old device and harder to scratch... still better to get some protection cover.
I see they released new Envoy app that is also open source, but I would prefer to use well known wallets instead, and wait to see if Envoy has some big bugs.

This is one of the few things I actually don't like about it... It's overkill and considering what the nature of the product in question is, I would've preferred a TN screen instead ^{[in a way, it could've acted as a privacy screen protector]}.

Does anybody know if the highlighted part means their app ^[Envoy] comes with a built-in TX accelerator or it's just a feature like RBF and CPFP?

Me gusta :)

---

For what it's worth, I really like the design of their Batch 2!

The v1 also came with the industrial microSD. I think I mentioned it in my review.
Comparison will come as a second review once I get mine and have some time to test it out.

I know, but honestly the old one wasn't great. It was totally fine for even daily transactions for sure, but just saying I do appreciate the upgrade! Definitely looking forward to that glass screen, let's see how it will be in real life.

I'm also pretty interested to look at the code; if they use trusted / well-known libraries and if so, which ones, or if it's all in-house, etc....

I don't understand; you mean 'screen protector' in the sense of that it doesn't have great viewing angles so people can't peer from the side? I don't see this as an issue on such a small screen (having used it) and you don't even notice the bad viewing angles at all. So I don't think the reason for going IPS was to make it readable from a shallow angle of view, moreso for just a better image. I'm not sure it's easy enough to see on pictures or online videos, but the v1 screen was pretty dim and in general the image was a bit weird. Not sure how to describe it really. It looks like this image here, which appears to be a render from their website, but this gradient from a grey to a light grey / white background is there as well as the small little squiggly lines all over the screen (zoom in).
https://foundationdevices.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/FD-1842_V05_WebsiteRender_01_7-10-2020.73_edit-scaled.jpg

No idea. Don't think the app or code are released yet; when they are, I'll try with the v1.

Honestly, absolute must-have for me and I think anyone else that's running their own node.

Interesting! ;) I mean I think I'll get accustomed to it. I just tend to prefer more plain, low-key designs; in general from a company perspective, it's also a less risky choice. In the end it comes down to the features, usability and security to be honest.

Yes, I believe you interpret the first part correctly, but I wasn't implying that they went with an IPS screen because of its great viewing angles... I've read a few comments/blog posts in the past about users who travel with a hardware wallet and I've personally seen a couple of users that were using certain hardware wallets in a public place ^[SMH], so a screen with bad viewing angles would've been better for such users ^{[I do know such situations probably doesn't apply to most of us, but still]} and on top of that, it could've been cheaper ^{[I guess I really want its price to come down, so I can afford it]}.

I totally agree with the latter part ^{[IMO, the upcoming version justifies its premium price tag, as opposed to the previous version]}.

Best option for me would be using something like e-ink display like one used in ebook readers.
You don't really need bright colors and bling for bitcoin wallet, and it would spend much less power than other alternatives.
I am honestly surprised no hardware wallet used eInk display so far, except maybe some M5Stack Esp32 devices.

Great thing about Foundation Passport is they release everything as open source including software and hardware, so you could ask them for .stl files and make your own custom design.
Quality probably won't be good as one that arrives from factory, and I am not sure how easy is to disassemble everything and put it all back together.
One more good thing about new Passport batch2 is they are using standard batteries used for old Nokia phones, exact model is BL-5C 1200mAh Rechargeable Battery.
You can buy one of this batteries everywhere online or in local electronics shop for around $10  :)

I have a number of questions:

Is it possible to buy only Passport batch2 on their website?
As I noticed, this model is not with e-ink. Foundation refused to use e-ink?

What happened to the previous version? Removed from production?

Isn't the SD slot a weak link that allows to download malware? Can attackers use it?

In general, there is a positive impression of this device. The idea of replacing AAA batteries with a rechargeable battery turned out to be good and allowed to reduce the thickness of HW. Why e-ink was removed is a question for me. The ability to customize the display would be a good idea.
I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me. Thx.

Right, makes sense. I mean I'd avoid using one in public spaces in general, just like I don't take $100 bills out of my wallet in public and wave them around. But honestly, compared to a phone or tablet screen, where someone could look from moderately far away distances, these screens are tiny. Unless you're literally within a crowd of people, I doubt anyone can see what's on that stamp-sized screen even if it had the best display technology in the world.

Regarding price, I think I could get some kind of 'referral code' which you could use to get a discount, but I thought about it before and decided against it so not to bias my opinion / review, since I'd get a very small amount ($10) in BTC as well (Ambassador Program (https://foundationdevices.com/ambassador/)).
I might reconsider for your guys' benefits and just give them e.g. the UA donation address to pay out to. On the other hand, they'll only pay out quarterly, and by June I really hope this war will be over... Anyhow, if you've got an idea (other charity) let me know. :)
Would be a price of $189 with the discount which seems totally fair to me, since e.g. much worse build quality BitBox02 costs ~$150 and Trezor Model T costs ~$240ish.

E-Ink isn't perfect (who would've thought ;)), and that's the reason why we don't see it on lots of consumer devices. The really good, quickly refreshing ones, with little to no artifacts, cost a lot of money and are used in high-end eBook readers. The small form-factor ones are mostly for tinkering, so even if you got the budget, it's hard to get your hands on a high-quality one in the size that Foundation would need.

Interestingly, there was a phone that popped up recently which uses an eInk and it seems like it's very very bad (Mudita (https://store.mudita.com/mudita-pure-minimalist-phone)) from the first reviews.

You're right, that 'bright colours and bling' aren't needed, which is why the v1 Passport had a monochrome screen. One thing to consider with Foundation is that they always try to get components without closed-source microprocessors embedded within them. It's easily possible that eInk screen modules just only come with such chips inside them, but that's now just speculation on my part. Maybe just ask them on Twitter; they seem to be very interactive and open there.

That's a good point! Maybe it will also be in their GitHub; then the chassis could be 3D printed with resin with any (single) colour one likes. It would give a basically perfectly smooth finish.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of this choice; I'll probably get two or three probably to leave in the backpack and car so to always have one handy when needed on the go.

Yes, it's not produced anymore, it was a one-time run of 1000 units. However resellers such as BTCdirect (https://shop.btcdirect.eu/en-gb/products/passport/) still have the v1 in stock if you prefer that. It is usually recommended to buy this sort of stuff directly from manufacturers though.

For my thoughts on this see above; if there's more interest in the topic, contact Foundation directly.

Try it! :P No honestly; it shouldn't. You can update the device via SD card, so there's a chance of trying to update it with a malicious firmware. However, it won't pass the cryptographic checks that the wallet performs on that firmware file, so you'd need to find an exploitable bug in the verification function (or maybe glitch the hardware during the process) to either skip the verification completely or to trick it into accepting an unsigned firmware file.

Not sure if this is what you are looking, but there is a Croatian company called Inkplate  (https://inkplate.io/)that apparently designs large e-inc displays based on open-source software and hardware. Whether or not all hardware components are completely open-source is not something I can answer though. But based on the items in their shop (https://e-radionica.com/en/inkplate.html), they only sell larger displays.

Only if you contact them and ask if they have some leftovers, but I don't understand why would you use inferior device with known issues (battery, screen scratches...)

Nobody is refusing anything about e-ink display and Foundation never mentioned them, this was just my idea and suggestion.

Try to break it and infect with malware, than post results here.
It's similar like Coldcard hardware wallet that was never hacked in this way.

I didn't know eink display are expensive, but I remember sawing this Mudita phone last year and I think it's way overpriced.
I like the idea for phone like this that is open source and with minimalist design, but it needs more work.
You can pretend to use phone and talk with Passport wallet  :D

I am pretty sure a few $ should suffice for such a screen and should fit within a $200 Bitcoin wallet manufacturer budget.
Yeah that phone is super overpriced; they also seem to go mostly for 'minimalism' and 'low SAR' etc instead of going mainly for open-source (though that's one of its features). It's off-topic, but was the only high-end device (at least price-wise) that came to mind which has a small eInk screen.

Yep, Passport definitely has a factor of plausible deniability / concealment in plain sight built-in!

New updated page was released for Passport hardware wallet Batch2 on foundation website, and I have to say that it looks amazing!  :o
Hands down best looking hardware wallet in my opinion, that is air-gapped and open source on both software and hardware level.
I can't wait for review and comparison with older version from one of 2500 proud owners.

https://images2.imgbox.com/36/ba/GJi4fpv2_o.gif
https://foundationdevices.com/passport/

It does it look batch2 has grown in size compared with older version, dimensions are 1.54'' x 4.36'' x 0.76'' (39mm x 110.8mm x 19.2mm) but it became slimmer.
Comparing that with older Passport devices, nokia phone, and with few other popular hardware wallets in link below:
https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Nano-S-vs-Trezor-One-vs-Nano-X-vs-Passport-vs-Nokia-3310-vs-Passport-2/1647439742683

Thanks, it does look cool in this picture. :D I will make sure to review and compare it; you won't miss it!
The size comparison is interesting. Thinner profile will definitely make it easier to carry in a pocket. I can't wait to get mine!
I'm thinking about grabbing one of those ambassador codes (https://foundationdevices.com/ambassador/) so you guys can get a $10 discount, as I saw a few interested folks who still find $200 too steep. On the other hand, it shouldn't influence my review, so I might do it after the review, maybe donate the $10 that I'd get for referring or something like that. What do you think?

In some ways, it reminds me of the Vertu Signature series phones, so I really like its design + most of its features.

I was under the impression that Batch 2 was a lot thinner than the previous version, but it looks like I was wrong ^{[a bit strange]}.

If you're referring to me because of our previous conversation, honestly, $190 is still a lot for me ^{[due to other expenses]}, but I appreciate the kind gesture :)

Indeed, it's 19mm vs 24mm roughly (I measured the v1 thickness right now). Not as much as expected; looked thinner due to smaller footprint I guess.

I think it was you and dkbit98 I was thinking about, yes. :) Alright!

Yes, it really looks a lot thinner in the pictures, but I wouldn't ignore the almost 5mm difference (according to your measurements). It appears that the official dimensions of the previous version were not entirely accurate, as a thickness of only 20 mm was mentioned.

Although it still resembles the old NOKIA brick phone, I like the new design. It is also nice that the new model uses a removable battery that utilizes the Nokia BL-5C form factor, which simplifies the purchase of replacement batteries.

All in all, I would say that this is my favorite hardware wallet right now (although I would prefer a price near $100).

I think this is a good decision, and you can even earn few sats when people read your honest review and use your code.
There is nothing wrong about unless it's pure shilling, like people are doing on youtube for ledger and trezor all the time.
Do you know how much are shipping costs for Passport batch2?

Maybe they changed something along the way, but I remember we took official dimensions long time ago when I did size comparison with other deviecs back in 2020.
I think they have some twitter giveaway so you can try your luck winning one of the batch2 device for 0$ ;)

Interesting that it was specified as 20mm, that was definitely wrong! :D

Honestly, it's a lot of money, but you can't expect a 'price near $100' for this. Besides the fact that they're still much smaller than the likes of Trezor and Ledger (economy of scale), their component costs are higher and they also build the devices in the U.S. - I was honestly surprised they could slash $100 off the old price.
Let's not forget big, well-known Trezor brand (though I do like their products) sells a small USB wallet for 225€. ;)

Nah, I don't want to earn off of a review or anything like that to be honest. It's not much money anyway and it can lead people to false conclusions. For example, I did criticize the v1 a good bit; if I end up really enjoying the v2 and hand out a referral code, someone could think I only changed opinion to refer many users and make a lot of money. So I would need to be conservative with any praises, even if I genuinely enjoy it, to make sure such a conclusion doesn't happen. This would bias me either way or another, so I prefer to stick to no referrals.

It shows during checkout based on your location, if I remember correctly!

Regarding dimensions again; it's possible they measured on the edge or so, since the device does't 'lay flat'. I measured the thickest spot (right in the centre of the device).

Shipping isn't cheap. I started filling out the information with fake details until the costs were displayed. The fee to ship the device to an address in Zagreb, Croatia is $40. I got the same costs for an address in Germany and Serbia as well. I though that's the fee for sending it to Europe, so I tried South America but the exact same costs pop up for an Argentinian address, for example. 

I am sure you will find some things that you don't like in all devices including Passport batch2, at least I can  :D
I am now reading Passport Ambassador program and I don't see anything wrong in giving anyone $10 discount while you would also get $10.
You are not forcing anyone to buy this wallet, and it's not like you will become rich doing this, but you never know  :D

I can confirm that, and it's not cheap but they are sending it from United States so I can understand.
Maybe they should open some shop in Europe or add some official resellers to reduce shipping cost, customs and deliver times.
I am not sure how much other hardware wallets charge for shipping directly from their official stores, but I can find those devices locally much easier.

UPDATE:
I found out there are three resellers from Europe, BTC Direct, Cryptomaan and Eventus sistemi from Slovenia (nearest location), but none of them is selling Passport Bathc2 yet.
https://foundationdevices.com/resellers/

BTC Direct and Cryptomaan are basically the same site. The first one is meant for the UK, and the second one is for customers from Belgium and the Netherlands. Notice the similarities in the design and layout of the two sites.

Another thing that caught my eye is the difference in price between BTC Direct/Cryptomaan and their Malaysia-based reseller Martview (https://www.martview.com/crypto/products/crypto-hardware-wallet).
BTC Direct and Cryptomaan sell the HW for €329,95 each, while Martview has it listed for $299. Quite a significant difference when you think about it. Martview ships the devices from China, and the cheapest shipping costs to the EU are around €9. But you also have to take into account the import tax most probably.   

For as much as I would love to see this, I guess that they still need to grow a bit more before venturing into Europe (and beyond). The good thing about the company - besides the open source product and all - is the fact that they are trying to have an organic grow rather than reaching for the stars only to fall short on the arrival - and this is mainly explained by the fact that they have very limited batch productions (1000 units of the first one and 2500 units on the second one). If this page is correct[1] they've already managed to fund a total of $2.8 million where $2.5 million came just from their second round of investments[2], and it actually got a bunch of investors interested, which is good! I assume they won't go into European markets even in version 3, but I'm really eager to see their strategic roadmap whenever they decide to announce it.

At that price range - 329,95 € - it still makes sense to buy from those resellers, at least to my country, instead of risking importing the product and then having it stuck in a endless loops of custom procedures (and costs!). Simulating an order with dummy data on BTCDirect.eu I was being quoted a total price of 334,95 € for the first batch of devices. If I instead opted for ordering it from the United States - assuming shipping costs and taxes were the same for the first edition device - here's the comparison of "estimated" prices:

	Country	USA
Device value	267.32 €	271 €
Taxes	62.63 €	75 €
Shipping	5.00 €	36 €
Total	334.95 €	382 €

We're talking about a 50 € difference on a device that ends up costing almost 340 € so every bit of saving helps. As a final remark I would be really interested in trying out the product but at that price point its just unsustainable to me (at least for now). Glad that n0nce will eventually make a review of it!  ;)

---

[1]https://angel.co/company/foundationdevices/funding (https://angel.co/company/foundationdevices/funding)
[2]https://foundationdevices.com/2021/06/announcing-our-seed-raise/ (https://foundationdevices.com/2021/06/announcing-our-seed-raise/)

Yeah I know Foundation is still small company, but I don't want them to ever become so big ^(shit) like ledger :P
From what I heard, it looks like they do have plans for expanding and making more devices and models in future.

It is a big difference and saved money, but I am wondering what's going to happen with prices of batch2.
You never know what happens next, maybe n0nce becomes new official reseller for Europe :D
Maybe even Passport developers notice more activity and traffic coming from Bitcointalk forum and they send us few models for free testing and review.

You heard it correctly I might say, he did stated that on this interview[1] - they believe that BTC adoption will hit a milestone this decade and mentioned the idea of making an open source phone for example and some "kind of node" (I gotta admit that he wasn't so clear on what kind of options they would develop on this front).
If we look at it, the EU stores are not selling the device that high (considering the base USA price). My expectation is that they are perhaps earning a bit less than 50 € as profit - which isn't something that huge considering the amount of work that they may be facing in importing the devices to their country. The base problem is the same when comparing a country outside USA and USA itself - the devices are just a tad too much expensive for the average bitcoin joe. It's a fact that these kind of devices aren't meant for them - especially the first few generations of Passport devices - but it does make it difficult for the company to expand without further investment rounds. As a side note, if anyone is interested in knowing more about Foundation as a company, I really advise you to hear the interview that I've posted. It gives an insight of the vision of Foundation CEO and how he sees the company going forward and where the development of BTC stands at the moment.
Interesting, I though that n0nce was from USA. Then yeah, for sure we have a potential reseller, his review was better than some reviews I've seen on Youtube!

PS: Zack Herbert uses (and recommends) - or at least used during 2020 - Passport as a hardware wallet[2]!

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[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFLte6GbCys&t=1051s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFLte6GbCys&t=1051s)
[2]https://youtu.be/DFLte6GbCys?t=1643 (https://youtu.be/DFLte6GbCys?t=1643)

Passport Batch 2 using Microchip 608a secure element and BitBox02 ATECC608B?

Does Passport have a "dual chip" security concept like BitBox02 too?

https://shiftcrypto.ch/bitbox02/security-features/ (https://shiftcrypto.ch/bitbox02/security-features/)

Passport batch 2 hardware wallet is using same chips like previous batch_one device, that is ATECC608A + STM32H753.
STM32 is general purpose microchip, ATECC608A is secure element used for storing seed phrases, and ATECC608B secure element is just improved version with security fixes.
As far as I know only BitBox02 hardware wallet is using B version of that secure element in combination with microchip ATSAMD51J20A.
To conclude, both hardware wallets are using dual-chip security concept, like most other hardware wallets available today that use secure elements.

Thanks for your answer.

https://shiftcrypto.ch/blog/content/images/2021/06/bb02security-01.png



However, BitBox02 does not trust the secure element and therefore does not store any important information there, such as the seed. So far I only know the BitBox that has such a method. For example, the ledger stores the seed in the secure element.
Maybe I expressed myself wrong or maybe I didn't understand it correctly.

Ah I see now what you wanted to say, they are using different method by encrypting seed words on main microprocessor and they use secure element for key derivation and for random number generator.
Some people would argue that this is inferior model compared to other hardware wallets, because RNG number generator is not really random and if encryption is broken seed words can be easier broken on main processor.
I would much ratter generate my own seed words offline using dices and then import them in Bitbox02 wallet, instead of thrusting some chip to do it for me.

Many thanks for your response.

What can you say about this criticism regarding air-gapped hardware wallet?. I'd appreciate it if you could say something about that.

I saw what Bitbox wrote about air-gapped hardware wallet and it looks like a lame explanation to me.
Just because they don't use this model doesn't mean this is bad, and they didn't really invent warm water with using Trezor code and adding secure element.
I could find many things that I don't like with their USB based device, like touch screen buttons, bad screen, etc.
For me air-gapped devices with QR codes are far superior compared to standard USB signing devices.

New real life images and videos are posted for Passport bath2 device from Bitcoin 2022 Miami Conference, and I have to say that screen is much better, and device overall looks great.
I would personally prefer to have all black color both front and back, but I think Foundation will release some protection skins or cases that can be replaced easily.
One thing I hope is they removed extra junk code and made it only as optional install.

https://i.ibb.co/S7q5T14/img295c9ea9958b4350bca47858df0fc584.gif
https://twitter.com/Marketsbylili/status/1511833505600315396

I hope they do, especially for the back cover ^{[judging by how light reflects its surface, it seems slippery to me and it's not just because of the textured design (it's a bit "more noticeable on this (https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1512069989334802432)" one)]}.
^{- AFAICR, that wasn't the case with the previous version.}

Same here ^{[assuming that you're referring to the secret menu/hidden games]}.

Have any of you pre-ordered the Batch 2 model? Maybe @n0nce? Found your review really great and detailed.

Yeah, I did, beginning of 2022, nothing arrived so far. I believe it was pushed back once or twice. Hopefully it comes in April.
Thanks for your feedback; similar stuff with comparison to v1 is definitely planned!

This time I'll probably also leverage the fact of owning 2 of these to experiment and review the multisig feature. Apparently some wallets that advertise it, don't deliver, but from what I've seen, Passport handles it nicely. Don't trust, verify, though!

Sorry for being the one to break it to you n0nce, but it seems like it will pushed back further than April according to the recent tweets made by the official Twitter account[1]:
If you go over to their twitter thread you'll see that the reasons for delaying are mostly related to sourcing their materials (both related to the wallet and packaging) - this is also aggravated by the zero-Covid strategy on China[2]. I estimate that if everything runs smoothly they may be able to start shipping early/mid June...

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[1]https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1515055087705595915 (https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1515055087705595915)
[2]https://www.bbc.com/news/59882774 (https://www.bbc.com/news/59882774)

Oh, that's unfortunate, but thanks for making me aware of it.. :) I'm a bit surprised that they didn't anticipate more lockdowns and global supply issues and chose to give a highly optimistic ETA of February. Honestly, better give a later ETA and maybe ship earlier than expected instead of the other way round.

Foundation Devices is only making their second product, so I can somehow excuse the fact they went with preorders again. But I must say, as the space progresses, this practice can quickly get you into a sort of loop, where you announce a product and it seems revolutionary and unique, but in the time you spend developing and making it, the competition might surpass you and you end up shipping a product that is at or below 'status quo'.

Honestly, I don't yet see much competition for the Passport lineup, but if you need over half a year to ship a product, out of which 4 months are 'unexpected delay', you better make sure this 'expectation vs reality gap' closes fast, before it bites you in the ass (by shipping 'old' feeling products due to too long lead times).

I could expect to see microchip shortage... but now we are starting to see metal cast and packaging material shortages, and from information I have from China, this is going super crazy levels, not going to end any time soon.
Main ports are closed in Shanghai and people are literally jumping out from their windows and committing suicides, because they don't have anything to eat and they are not allowed to go out.

Solution for Passport problem would be to decentralize more and make reserve options for most parts, when that is possible, and I am sure other countries can make some parts.
I see now that Passport is going to make packaging in United States, but in 2022 you need to have backup options for everything, and avoid single point of failure as much as possible.

Just a quick update - May 20th - regarding Batch 2 : Foundation estimates that they'll start assembly the first units in the first week of June[1]! Here's a more detailed information regarding materials availability and next steps:
It seems that my early estimates weren't all that bad... Looking forward for your review n0nce!

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[1]https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1527797590263226372 (https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1527797590263226372)

Thanks Rick for keeping us up to date! I think I've said it before, but I'm not happy with how they set their ETAs. It's already been like this with v1 and it hasn't improved on v2. They always set completely unrealistic ETAs and then have to push them back repeatedly. Why not just set a worst-case one and then maybe surprise customers with earlier delivery? Instead they've basically been saying 'delivery next month' since January. I'll get more into this with sources and whatnot in the review, though. This communication from them is really something I don't like.

I can't imagine it's helping their business in general.  I for one would have bought a mk3 if they had only announced the mk4 as "coming soon," but since they were taking reservations months ago I decided to wait. I imagine I'm not the only one.  The silly thing is I probably would have bought a mk4 eventually also.

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ETA: 10% off for Pizza day?  To hell with the wait, I placed the order.

You're probably on the wrong board; this is about Foundation Passport, not about ColdCard! ;D

Yesterday's wine.

Another quick update : It seems like some Twitter users have started receiving their orders[1][2]. Albeit the absence of updates from n0nce makes me think he/she hasn't received their notification, I hope that this update from Foundation[3] makes him/her happy:
We are one step closer for your review n0nce! Really excited to see if the improvements were the right ones or if this is really an upgrade versus the previous one. Have you managed to grab your "n0nce10" code from their Ambassadors program?  ;)

---

[1]https://nitter.net/BTCsessions/status/1550204596047360000 (https://nitter.net/BTCsessions/status/1550204596047360000)
[2]https://nitter.net/ShaneTrammel/status/1550315655815172096 (https://nitter.net/ShaneTrammel/status/1550315655815172096)
[3]https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1548937916923215872 (https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1548937916923215872)
[4]https://foundationdevices.com/ambassador/ (https://foundationdevices.com/ambassador/)

Thanks for the update! I haven't got mine yet, but even when I do get it, I will need a bit of time to unbox, review and compare to v1 of course.
I'm glad to hear that they are finally shipping. I also noticed that their Envoy application is now available, but I'm not sure what you guys think about this topic. Installing an application (binary), compiled, from an app store, that holds the xpub of your hardware wallet? There is no way of verifying it not breaching user privacy. It could easily do a one-off HTTP request, sending the xpub to Foundation.
I might find the time to have a look at their source code to at least check they don't have Google AdSense or other known spying frameworks in use, as I believe that's one of the biggest 'black boxes' in most mobile applications.

Edit: It uses Google Firebase. If I don't absolutely have to, I'd prefer to skip Envoy for now.

Glad to see the excitement.. ;) I decided for myself not to request any discount codes for now. Even if I value my objectivity, I can't be 100% sure that such rewards wouldn't influence my judgement, you know. Maybe thinking about it again after finishing the review, after it's all set in stone and whatnot, would make more sense.
On one hand I'd be glad to offer such a discount to interested buyers, but on the other hand I'd prefer not to get a reward for it, you know. Maybe I can tell them to make my code give $20 off to the customers and no reward for myself.

Which wallet do you use?

As wallet software, I use Bitcoin Core and Sparrow.
I don't really feel comfortable using something that I can't compile myself or at least check the binaries' hash and look at https://walletscrutiny.com/ to see if the available builds are actually reproducible (i.e. produced from the source code without modifications).

I just spotted our member MoparMiningLLC in the wild space of twiitter, he just received his own Passport batch2 wallet and he seems happy with it.
I guess he is the same guy on twitter and in bitcointalk, but the real question is when is n0nce finally going to receive his long waited package .
We are still waiting for news about that review ;)
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/MoparMining/status/1551771147175436289

What Bitcoin and LN wallets are you using and recommending for smartphones?

When they first introduced it, it had a lot of potential but they ruined it with such a decision ^{[second time in a row (after the node part (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382675.msg60538814#msg60538814))]}.

I guess that confirms I was wrong ^{[they "didn't" alter the foundation letters' color into black (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382675.msg60538814#msg60538814)]}, but while we're waiting for n0nce's review, I'd like to complain about their packaging:

• On their "unboxing video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUGTWWUlCgU) ^{[part one]}", I noticed only the outer box comes with a tamper-evident seal and the inner/main box is only bubble & shrink wrapped! I do know there's a way to check and verify if you've got the correct product, but this way of packaging still gives certain users a chance to figure out a non-detectable way to bypass such things in the future.

Unfortunately some custom offices open the sealed package. The device comes with or without firmware?

As of right now, honestly nothing. I will look into something simple, without tons of bloat introduced by suspicious (read: Google et. al) frameworks that I can compile myself, in the future.

Maybe also just going to make my own. I don't need lots of fancy features; just creating a PSBT from a Bitcoin address, a selected UTXO, an amount and a fee can't be that hard, right. Not even any USB protocol is needed; just QR code generation, reading the signed QR from a camera image and sending it to an Electrum node. Honestly that would be one of the simplest software programs I've ever written so I don't get why all these mobile apps overcomplicate it so much so that they need to resort to frameworks (yeah I'm not a fan of frameworks especially if they might phone home.. ::)).

I'm not sure how I feel about 'tamper evident packaging'. It can give a false sense of security, especially since such stickers can be got anywhere very cheaply; I believe even fake Ledger devices come with tamper evident seals. So I wouldn't put too much trust in solely such stickers; on the other hand, they cost nothing so adding one more may give a little extra protection for barely any cost at all.

Passport v1 came with firmware and I'm sure that v2 comes like that, too. But you can always go in and immediately flash a fresh image from Foundation's webpage or GitHub when you receive it. Mind you, the device only installs firmware signed by Foundation, so it's going to be pretty hard (read: almost impossible) for someone to casually replace the firmware on your Passport at the customs office.
Realistically, worst thing that can happen is that they open it, boot it, configure it, and write down (steal) your seed. However you would notice since after turning on you wouldn't see the usual setup. In such case you could trash it, or just format it and re-configure (getting a new seed).

I am not worried about tamper-evident seals at all.
This is just superficial stuff that can be replicated and it is not offering any real protection against anything, it's just providing false sense of security.

Sometimes I think that sole exitance for custom workers is to ruin and open sealed packages that are coming to customers :P
Every time I order something online, especially overseas, I am trying to find alternative way for shipping, maybe friend delivery or me traveling to better location to pick up package.
I would prefer to receive device without firmware install and do everything manually, but most likely you will need to update firmware soon anyway.

That would be cool to see :)
I am currently thinking about all the good apps we can use for smartphones, related with Bitcoin, and open source wallets are big part of this.
This is not to be used for holding big amount's of money, more like pocket money and something used for p2p trading in person.
One interesting thing I noticed recently is that Graphene OS with Pixel6 phone is using twelve words backup option and I think this could be BIP39 compatible but I am not sure.

I think these 9 reproducible apps from the Google PlayStore could be a good starting point for finding a nice Android wallet.
https://walletscrutiny.com/?verdict=reproducible&platform=android

As for iOS, as far as I know it is impossible to make a reproducible build land on the AppStore, since Apple re-builds the binaries themselves or something like that. But you could surely compile one of the open-source iOS apps yourself.
https://walletscrutiny.com/?verdict=nonverifiable&platform=iphone

However I don't know which ones support airgapped hardware wallets in either list. As I said, for very basic functionality, I may be able to throw something together in a weekend. But as of right now, I don't really have a need for it. I did plan to have one hardware wallet more intended for 'mobile use' (at first I thought Passport v1, then I decided to give that role to my batch 2 due to the battery issue), but especially with the still ongoing pandemic I just don't travel that much or use Bitcoin outside 'range' of a PC or laptop.

Another idea is stripping Envoy off Google stuff and compiling it yourself.
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/envoy/

Oh nice I didn't see that, so they released first version of Envoy app in public and it's out of beta testing?

I don't know if you heard anything about latest bug found in Coldcard mk4 wallet with their Virtual Disk, and since Passport wallet is forked from older Coldcard I am wondering if they are using anything similar.
Maybe  am naive to say this, but I think that Passport showed to be much less affected with serious bugs so far, but I am not saying they are perfect.

Apparently yes, I can see it on all major platforms, as well as the GitHub repo for the source code.
Apple AppStore: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/envoy-by-foundation/id1584811818
Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.foundationdevices.envoy
F-Droid: https://foundationdevices.com/fdroid/

I like how below the download links / badges (https://foundationdevices.com/download/), it says 'Or download directly on our Github (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/envoy/releases).'
I'm not sure how it works on iOS, but it seems you can download and install the .ipa file; I suppose it has to be sideloaded (signed with your Apple ID) using something like https://altstore.io/ (AltServer). On Android you can obviously install the .apk directly.

Actually I'm not sure it's even accurate to say they are forked from ColdCard. It appears to me that they are definitely using Trezor's crypto (so is ColdCard, as far as I know - first commit has mentions of using their crypto library (https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/tree/9f04ac1b885297627954b9a5c8ec390b02c3bc74)) and may have taken some ColdCard things here and there.
I remember that ColdCard was upset about Passport supposedly being a CC fork, but if I roughly compare the two projects' structures, they look very different. A quick diff over both projects (latest commits) also shows no single identical file - obviously, this would also be the case if Passport was based on CC and changed every single file between the fork and now.
I would find it a bit odd if ColdCard took Trezor code, but only the bits that are needed, and renamed everything not to leave any traces, but then Passport, supposedly built on CC code, adds back in the whole trezor firmware repo (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/tree/main/extmod/trezor-firmware).

The Makefiles also look very different, so even if it was forked from ColdCard, it has diverged so much that the same bugs might indeed not be present on Passport. But I wouldn't bet on it.. ;D

To answer your question about the Virtual Disk bug; one easy thing to check is looking for strings in both projects. We get a bunch of results in ColdCard repo (https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/search?q=virtual+disk), while Foundation's 6 results for the same query (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/search?q=virtual+disk) are entirely different. The feature does not seem present in Passport.
In code, it is often referred to as virtdisk (https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/search?q=virtdisk), a string which we do not find on Passport (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/search?q=virtdisk) at all. No matches in passport2 repo (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/search?q=virtdisk) either.

---

Unrelated; just read this from DaveF. I agree; so I checked in the code if Passport batch 2 still comes with unnecessary games.

Indeed, they removed the snake game from Passport batch 2 (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/search?q=snake).
We can also compare the same folder in both repos and notice that the other game, stacking_sats.py is gone too and the project generally looks much cleaner and smaller than batch 1.
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/tree/main/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/tree/main/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules

This was one of the main reasons why ColdCard developers changed their license from OpenSource to CommonClause.
I don't think they benefited at all from this, on contrary I think they are going to get less or no more contribution from developers outside ColdCard circle.
btw I heard that there is only one developer in Coldcard team, but I can't vouch for that...
I am not exactly sure how much people is working on Passport  wallet, but there are seven contributors so far.

Maybe they actually visited bitcointalk forum and found some criticism we made regarding those game bloatware found in first version of their device.
I can't exactly remember if some of their developers an created account here, but I think they did, correct me if I am wrong.

They did! I really appreciated it. I hope he chimed back in now and then to see what other feedback there was; he was last active a week ago, so I suspect he's a frequent reader of the forum. :)