Thoughts about Passport hardware wallet

[dkbit98]

Today I saw announcement from foundationdevices about their new upcoming hardware wallet called Passport.
It is Open Source, Airgapped and made in Boston, USA with premium look and feel, so I expect to see premium price also
Secure element, camera, AAA batteries and microSD port are included with support for major software wallets.

Website:
https://foundationdevices.com/

Specifications:
https://foundationdevices.com/passport/details/

FAQ:
https://foundationdevices.com/faqs/

What do you think about Passport and do you have any price predictions?  

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[The Sceptical Chymist]

The first thing that came into my dingbat little head when I saw this device was this:



The second thing I thought of was a first generation iPod, which I don't have a picture of.  Anyway, I wouldn't say the Passport is particularly elegant-looking, and I don't think it's necessarily as minimalistic as other HW wallets.  I do like the screen and I do like the physical buttons, but would I buy one of these?  Probably not. 

Why?  Because I think a Ledger Nano S or X can do everything the Passport can do and more, and both of those have track records of satisfied users (same for Trezor).  If I could buy one of these things for as much or less than a Keepkey, I might try it out--but I have a feeling the price point is going to be much higher.

[LTU_btc]

@The Pharmacist, my first thought when I saw photo was same. I think I also had same phones in left and right in past .
Description of this wallet and wallet itself looks solid. But I imagine it's going to cost very expensive compared to other hardware wallets. $250 smallest price that I could imagine . Now I don't see any reasons why someone would need to replace their Ledger to this wallet.
BTW, I don't get, why camera is needed in hardware wallet?

[HCP]

BTW, I don't get, why camera is needed in hardware wallet?

So it can be fully "air gapped"... it'll be for scanning QR Codes etc... aside from the SDCard there is no other way for it to be able to read data in... it doesn't have BT or USB.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Agree with The Pharmacist here - this looks old fashioned. Even the menu screen looks like a late 90s MP3 player.

I'm also a little bit concerned by this phrase:

Seed-less backups via encrypted microSD card (included with purchase).

I can't find anything on their website to state if this is the only back up method, or if they also generate BIP39 seed phrases. I don't want my back up on an SD card, and I definitely don't want my back up to be in a format that is only recoverable with another Passport hardware wallet. We need more details about this.

I do like the fact that batteries are generic and replaceable, though.

[dkbit98]

Because I think a Ledger Nano S or X can do everything the Passport can do and more, and both of those have track records of satisfied users

Please don't tell me that Ledger is more elegant than Passport.  
People are starting to make Ledger cult in this forum, and don't get me wrong I do own Ledger wallet.
Ledger looks a like old USB drive you can get for 50 cents   and don't let me start with their shity Ledger Live  
and their recent leak and data breach: https://www.ledger.com/addressing-the-july-2020-e-commerce-and-marketing-data-breach

But I imagine it's going to cost very expensive compared to other hardware wallets. $250 smallest price that I could imagine .

I predict minimum price of $900  

[dkbit98]

You can even build a Passport yourself, from scratch!

That is interesting part that I missed. Building it myself from scratch and ten times cheaper just because I can  

Now i wonder how do we update the firmware? From microSD?

Yeah, I am sure firmware update (if they have it) will be available from microSD.

[LTU_btc]

Please don't tell me that Ledger is more elegant than Passport.  
People are starting to make Ledger cult in this forum, and don't get me wrong I do own Ledger wallet.
Ledger looks a like old USB drive you can get for 50 cents   and don't let me start with their shity Ledger Live  
and their recent leak and data breach: https://www.ledger.com/addressing-the-july-2020-e-commerce-and-marketing-data-breach

Yeah, Ledger is similar to cheap USB drive, but I don't think it's bad, I don't think that hardware wallet needs fancy design. Ledger is little, light, compact and simple wallet. While Passport looks like big phone made 20 years ago. I think that with current technologies, they were able to make device smaller and more compact.

I predict minimum price of $900  

Might be, I wouldn't be surprised at all .

[hugeblack]

I thought it was a company to redesign the old phones and make them Airgapped, I didn't expect it to be their design, it's so strange.
There is not a lot of information but the comparisons made seem childish.
I did not see how these devices will be charged, and I believe that only dollar support will not bring them a lot of profits.
Why do we need multiple signatures?

Passport uses the same security model as Coldcard but introduces (1) integrated AAA batteries and (2) a camera for more convenient airgapped transactions.

Coldcard old version

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Please don't tell me that Ledger is more elegant than Passport.  

I won't (and didn't) tell you that, because I don't think either one is very elegant. 

People are starting to make Ledger cult in this forum, and don't get me wrong I do own Ledger wallet.
Ledger looks a like old USB drive you can get for 50 cents  and don't let me start with their shity Ledger Live 
and their recent leak and data breach: https://www.ledger.com/addressing-the-july-2020-e-commerce-and-marketing-data-breach

Though I'm a fan of the Ledger, I wouldn't be a part of that cult.  I've had a few annoying problems with my Ledger, and it's far from perfect.  But as far as it looking like an old flash drive, I consider that a positive feature since it makes it much easier to hide.

Ledger Live isn't too bad in my experience, but just like the Ledger device itself it's got lots of room for improvement.  It's a good thing they keep updating LL.

[Pmalek]

I did not see how these devices will be charged...

You will have to manually remove the back cover and change your batteries or use rechargeable batteries that can be charged by a third party charger of yours. I see no other way since you cant connect the device to anything.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Ledger looks a like old USB drive you can get for 50 cents   and don't let me start with their shity Ledger Live  

I wouldn't disagree with that, but at least people still use USB drives. Nobody has owned a phone which looks like the Passport for 15+ years. And yes, Ledger Live is bad, which is why most people use Electrum as the interface instead.

Don't get me wrong - I like the airgapped designed, and I like their commitment to being open sourced (although no links to their GitHub yet), I just don't see myself carrying such a device around with me. Perhaps I would use it as a hardware wallet that stays at home.

I did not see how these devices will be charged

They won't be. They used standard AAA batteries, so you just replace them when they run out.


I also wonder if they are reading this thread. At some point since my earlier post less than 12 hours ago showing concern about their back up methods, the page I linked (https://foundationdevices.com/passport/details/) has been updated to include that back ups are available via "standard 24 word seed". Good to know it will be BIP39 compatible.

Lots of potential positives about this wallet, I just personally find the physical design a bit of a sticking point.

[dkbit98]

Nobody has owned a phone which looks like the Passport for 15+ years.

Wrong.
I still use phone like that and there is nothing wrong it. Working great.
If you like to be tracked everywhere with stupid smart phones go ahead

Lets look at the size of both devices:

1. 'Holly Grail' Ledger Nano X:
Size 72mm x 18.6mm x 11.75mm
2.83 x 0.73 x 0.46 inches

'Holly Grail' Ledger Nano S:
Size 56.95mm x 17.4mm x 9.1mm
0.71 x 0.35 x 3.86 inches

taken from holly grail website: ledger.com


2. Not elegant old phone style boring anti holly grail wallet Passport:

1.5 inches wide x 4 inches tall x 0.8 inches thin (3.8 cm x 10.2 cm x 2 cm)

taken from: foundationdevices.com


Are you even looking at numbers before you make an assumptions?
We are not talking about old Nokia brick phone here  

[o_e_l_e_o]

So I could get more of a feel for the size involved, I plugged all the numbers in to here (along with an old Nokia phone for comparison): https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Nano-S-vs-Trezor-One-vs-Nano-X-vs-Passport-vs-Nokia-3310/1596053880559

The size is much closer to an old Nokia phone than it is to other common hardware wallets. That won't be an issue for many people, but for someone who is used to carrying around and concealing a hardware wallet no bigger than a USB stick or a credit card, it's a major sticking point. I can't slip it inside my wallet. I can't attach it to my keys. I can't even comfortably fit it in the pocket of some jeans alongside my wallet or phone.

[LTU_btc]

Ok, I prefer size of Ledger wallet, but I'm not sure that size and design is such big issue. How many of you are taking hardware wallets with yourself? Because personally, my Ledger never left my home. Offcourse, there is people who spend their Bitcoins in physical stores, but I doubt that many of them are using hardware wallets for it. Most likely that mobile wallets is their choice.

[dkbit98]

Oh I also added dollar bill just to compare size, and Nokia 3310 is not old brick exactly.
You also need to open your Ledger wallet so in reality it is double the size when you use it.

The size is much closer to an old Nokia phone than it is to other common hardware wallets. That won't be an issue for many people, but for someone who is used to carrying around and concealing a hardware wallet no bigger than a USB stick or a credit card, it's a major sticking point. I can't slip it inside my wallet. I can't attach it to my keys. I can't even comfortably fit it in the pocket of some jeans alongside my wallet or phone.

Yes you can, and you can easily get your data hacked and sold on internet and dark web.
And why would you ever carry your fortune with you all the time?
People lose keys and cheap USB drives very easy from jeans, or some girl can stole them from your pocket if you look to much in her tits  

Sorry for messing with your Ledger worship gang, but somebody has to.  

Ok, I prefer size of Ledger wallet, but I'm not sure that size and design is such big issue. How many of you are taking hardware wallets with yourself? Because personally, my Ledger never left my home. Offcourse, there is people who spend their Bitcoins in physical stores, but I doubt that many of them are using hardware wallets for it. Most likely that mobile wallets is their choice.

Exactly.
I never carry it with myself or on my keys

[HCP]

You seem to be forgetting the golden rule of "use cases"... which, as I was quite fond of telling my ex, is "Everyone is NOT you!"

Simply because you don't see a need for X or you don't want to do Y with your device... doesn't mean nobody else does. I've travelled (internationally) with my ledger before... a small USB key like device barely gets a 2nd look from customs officials when you're travelling with a laptop and have 2 other similar looking USB keys in your bagetc... and having access to "emergency funds" when away from home for 3-4 weeks is useful... especially when your missus likes to shop up a storm!

And I'm not sure why you seem to think that everyone here "worships" the Ledger... I like it, but as someone else mentioned, it's far from perfect... but then, so is my Trezor... and Electrum... and Mycelium... and Bitcoin Core for that matter... but I still use all of them and would be happy to recommend any of them depending on the use case.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You also need to open your Ledger wallet so in reality it is double the size when you use it.

The size when I'm using it is fairly irrelevant since I also have to have my laptop open to use it. It's the size when I'm trying to inconspicuously carry it around with me that concerns me.

And why would you ever carry your fortune with you all the time?

I don't. The majority of my holdings are on various encrypted airgapped wallets or paper wallets. However, I would rarely put more than $50 on a mobile wallet, so if I'm out and about or traveling and anticipate the need to use bitcoin, then I want a small hardware wallet I can easily carry with me.

Sorry for messing with your Ledger worship gang, but somebody has to.

I am very much not a part of a Ledger worship gang. I like their devices, I hate their software interface, and now have major concerns regarding their attitudes towards customer privacy.

I never carry it with myself or on my keys

As I said above, that's entirely up to you and so you may love the Passport. As someone who does carry a hardware wallet around, this device does not fulfill the criteria I need it to. Each to their own.

[dkbit98]

...

One more member of this Ledger cult
Can anything bad be said about Ledger hardware wallet or not?
Does everything happening with Ledger needs to be justified?

AGAIN, I do own Ledger wallet but I do not worship it.
Yes Ledger is small and I can crush it if I step on it very easy.

Smart phones are getting bigger and bigger but most of people buy them more and more.
Old Nokia phone is smaller than modern smartphones people carry everyday.


https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Nano-S-vs-Trezor-One-vs-Nano-X-vs-Passport-vs-Nokia-3310/1596053880559#/

I am very much not a part of a Ledger worship gang. I like their devices, I hate their software interface, and now have major concerns regarding their attitudes towards customer privacy.

Ok, that is honest answer.
I expected to see more criticism from other people regarding Ledger, and not just putting things under the carpet (not talking about you in specific, but in general).

[DaveF]

The ColdCard people are not real happy with them at the moment:

https://twitter.com/nvk/status/1288860345864527874

I'm kind of torn about it. Part of me is thinking it's OSS people can do what they want you released it that way.
The other part is yeah, if you are making money from someones code or plan to make money from someones code although you might not owe them money you should be contributing something.

-Dave