Bitcoin Forum

I gave heaps of Casascius One-bitcoin physical coins away back in the day and also a small no. of 'silver tens'. Now with the new ATHs, in larger numbers than ever before, friends are coming back to me asking for help in selling* part of their Bitcoin, and this time, including one of the silver tens. To-date over the years, having not had much joy in selling the physical coins, I have helped my friends peel them and securely move the various coins from them to hardware wallets then to exchange (which was also the fate of mine when I lived off my bitcoin until I ran out in 2014/15!)

But now, having heard rumours of prices that may be obtained for them, here's me logging back into an account I thought I'd erased in order to see whether there is genuine interest.

The loaded Casascius Silver 10 Bitcoin piece with Gold ₿ is going to be auctioned in a 10 day auction after the new year and in the meantime, getting it graded for physical condition as well as good photos and giving time to think of ways of reaching potential buyers so we've got as best chance at the auction being a true price discovery. Currently, the idea is to have a starting price of 10.05 btc and to have a 12.5 btc reserve, below which the seller will have the option to decline.

In the event that it doesn't reach the reserve and the owner declines the highest below-reserve bid, her plan is to peel it in order to frame and keep the physical coin herself.

Regarding the Casascius brass 1s, I know of four coins straight that my friends would sell and likely more if the price was right so I will start by auctioning the first of those in the next days.

As for background, these were all bought by me directly from Mike Caldwell in the few months after I joined this forum (the date of which you can check out).

It's strange to be posting here again after so many years so greetings to anyone who remembers me from back then  :D

*as an aside, the experiment - which was part of the purpose of giving so many away - was to see if being given some, owning some, would pique their interest such that people decided to learn about this amazing technology / phenomenon and discover its wonders as I had. The outcome of the experiment is that hardly anyone did to-date. They know as little about it now as they did then and are only interested in getting some money for it. That aspect is slightly disappointing but not that I gave them away because I know had I not given them away, I would likely have spent them myself anyway so at least it is my friends that are benefiting from the btc, not whoever the strangers are who may be currently selling or hodling those I sold ;D

Edit 2: Largely re-written to reflect where we've got to after some very useful feedback below and in PMs.

I’ll be very interested to see what happens with the 10 !!!

I am shopping for a silver gilt loaded 1 casascius coin. Please PM me

OK,

Thank you for your interest, both here and more substantially, by PM.

So far, it is mainly the silver ten that has attracted interest - hence changing the Subject. However, nobody has offered a price yet.

So what I propose to do, once I get some photos, is to hold a ****non-binding auction****** to discover a price someone would be willing to pay then to ask the owner if that is enough for her to be prepared to let it go loaded (as opposed to peeling it for the crypto value and keeping the physical peeled coin).

In the meantime, there are still the ones... :)

*****N.B. PLEASE NOTE IT IS NO LONGER MY INTENTION (AS PER THE EDITED POST ABOVE AND PER LATER POSTS) TO GO FOR A NON-BINDING AUCTION

First, I am interested in the 10 price dependent.

Second, a non binding auction sounds like a huge waste of time and Internet.  Not enough people will bid, knowing it is non binding, to get a true reflection of the market price.  Tell your friend to either do a WTS with the price she is willing to accept or to put on her big girl pants and do an auction starting at loaded value.

Thank you too for your interest although I think your assessment is a bit harsh! As far as I recollect, it is normal, for instance in car auctions in the UK that the seller after the auction but before payment can withdraw. They just have to pay the auctioneer and they lose some credibility. I know from experience it's a downer for the 'winning' bidder but it's just life!

From ebay.com "A non-binding bid is a bid that shows a buyer's interest in purchasing an item, but it doesn't create a formal contract between the buyer and the seller. All bids made in the Real Estate and eBay Motors vehicles categories are considered non-binding."

I'm not saying we should just accept the standards of other auction processes but clearly, if it's standard practice for certain high-value item categories for ebay, I'm not entirely out on a limb here. We're talking about a lot of money here so I don't think it is unreasonable that both parties after the auction have a day or two to be sure they're happy before proceeding. If that is unacceptable to you then I'm sorry but that is what I will try. If people don't bid because it's non-binding and there's hardly anything over face-value offered then it's their loss. The owner will get to go with Plan A - which is to peel it and use it.

The point is you will not get a REAL assessment because it's not a REAL auction, plain and simple.  ....and having an auction where either party can consider it "non binding" is absolutely ridiculous.  As LC said, a waste of time and internet.

"A non-binding bid"?!  
That won't work around here.  :D

Fix it...start a legit auction.  ::)

Here's the thing though, this isn't a car auction in the UK nor is it ebay.  While you may not find a list of rules there are some general unwritten rules most everyone uses.  There is no section on "non binding bids" as that is stupid as fuck and no one here does it.  You are free to set up your auction with non binding bids but I guarantee you the people who can afford to pay 12+ btc for your friend's coin will not be bidding in a non binding auction.

OK, I hear you. You with your high activity, merit and trust scores are clearly representative of the views around here.

Nevertheless, the rarer the item, the less idea one can have of how much of the potential market I would be reaching here. If I'm auctioning a mid-priced common item on ebay, I can start at zero and be confident the market will find me a fair price. I haven't been able find examples of recent prior sales to get an idea of its worth. Furthermore, I have no idea what proportion of the number of views this thread has had is potentially interested and has the means to pay this kind of money. I do get your criticism of my proposal but can also see that a binding auction could end up being an expensive way of finding out there's hardly any demand (or that those potentially interested don't hang out here frequently enough to participate).

For you who have spoken, clearly you're not interested in a non-binding auction and as I said, I suspect you speak for more than yourselves. But if it were a complete 'waste of time and internet' then it wouldn't be the norm in how Ebay works for certain high-value item categories. I accept it isn't the modus operandi around here but that doesn't make it pointless. I don't have the photos yet but at present I'm inclined to proceed anyway in the way I have proposed and anyone is free to refrain from participating if you feel that strongly about it.

If the coin is in mint state, I reckon she could get 12-13 btc. If it is in a state other than mint state it would be worth less depending on the condition.  The very first thing that needs to happen is some quality high res photos.

If she wants the money soon, put on the big girl pants and run a 10-14 day auction starting at 10 btc.  No bullshit hidden reserve.  No non binding bids.  I would imagine she gets 12-13 btc for the coin with this method.  Now before you run off and start this auction, you need to figure out how you are going to actually complete this transaction.  This is not a throw it in a box and give it to Tom at the local post office type of sale.  Honestly, your friend would benefit greatly from enlisting help from one of the several trusted users here who offer services to handle such transactions.  

If she can wait, list it for sale here at 13 btc firm and wait.

Thank you very much for your valued feedback on this. I shall pass on about high-res photos and will ask her to do daylight and multiple-angles so any scratches show up. If someone would like to PM me with any offers of assistance with it along with what you would want for your services, that would be greatly appreciated. I had already reached out to minerjones who from a little research appears to have a good reputation here and who has offered to escrow - should there be a sale. Re. transport / handover, I had assumed the buyer would be happy to fly to London to pick it up in person but I'm open to other ideas.

I will admit that your 'stupid idea' comment had me determined not to be bullied into doing it your way and your 'guarantee' that nobody would participate had me suspicious the regulars here may be playing some back-channel dubious practices during auctions behind the scenes to dupe the newbies into selling too cheap. But your constructive post is helping me toward doing things in a more conventional way for selling here. We'll see. I'll see where we are tomorrow.

I'll echo LC's comments about non-binding not being useful. If participants don't have skin in the game, the results won't be tied to reality. Look at how people treat free bets or play tokens vs. real money in gambling apps.

I agree a non binding Auction is a waste of time.

I don't think you always have to start the Auction at peel value though. Start at the absolute minimum you would accept for the coin, and see what happens. If its too much for everyone it doesn't sell, which is fine. If one person is willing you get that price, or maybe lots of people want it and it goes up.

All that being said, only a crazy person would post a 10BTC Silver Cas. Meet up, with someone who can tell a fake, in a secure location, is the only way it could possibly work IMHO. I passed on a 5BTC Cas/Lealana hybrid recently that sold for peel value, purely because it's way too much uninsured value to post ( you can't insure physical bitcoin).

Thanks for your feedback all. Helpful in taking small reasoned steps toward something that will work for all.

OK, so here's the plan:

We've found a way of taking out the urgency, that being that someone will lend her what she is intending to sell at today's prices to be repaid in btc whenever the physical coin is sold (or if it's peeled).

So we're thinking maybe a 10 day auction after the new year and in the meantime, getting it graded for physical condition as well as good photos and giving time to think of ways of reaching potential buyers so we've got as best chance at it being a true price discovery.

After consideration, we've abandoned the non-binding auction idea and instead will start at 10.05 and have a non-hidden 12.5 btc reserve, below which the seller will have the option to decline.

Re. sending by mail, I had expected for the silver ten that the buyer would be prepared to fly to London to pick it up. However, it has also been suggested that a trusted courier from here could do the flying if the buyer doesn't want to. All worth considering beforehand, thanks, and now we've bought some time to work out those details in advance.

In the meantime, I'm going to get some pics today of the first of the 1btc pieces and I'll see if at least one of these can be on auction in the next days, again with a something-over-face starting price and a tbd non-hidden reserve.

Thank you all for your interest. Even if it sounds like I'm not appreciating the browbeating I'm getting for my non-standard proposals, it's miles better than putting up a post and having no response at all (which I seem to recollect was the case in 2014 when I had a load that I would have happily sold for anything over face). I will update the OP with the latest decision.

Talking of grading, does anyone know which, if any, London grading / encapsulation services would be acceptable to potentially global bidders?

Sadly no UK grading houses are interested in physical cryptos (at least according to the last time I checked).

Thank you both, I spoke to Coin Grading Services this morning who said they no longer do authentication & encapsulation. I'll keep looking but my guess is we may need to just go with photos although I am open to suggestions.

I’m actually not a great fan of capsulation. I had it done for some actual coins in a collection I have, and I actually regret it. You lose the chance to hold these objects in your hand which is part of the joy of owning them.

Depends whether you are a fan of scuffs and tarnish on your coin ;)

But yes there is something special about the coin outside of its capsule, where you can see the finer details and really see the beauty of the gold plated rim (on the 2013 Gilt)

In my opinion the safety and security that comes from capsulation FAR outweighs this joy of fondling coins. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm literally cracking up at the fondling coins statement. Just sounded funny.
Just as a FYI, I like to do both. Fondle them until I get them to you for grading  :D :D
Cheers all!

Agree completely, i dont even consider purchasing ungraded, ok rarely lol

Interesting side-topic of the pros and cons of grading thanks. My tendency is to get it graded and encapsulated if I can find a way of doing it that is fairly straightforward because I understand the merit of that. Nevertheless, if it is too much of an issue, I'll sell it without. I was speaking to the owner who said she can only remember a few times when it came out of the openable capsule it came for the joy of feeling the coin in your hands (once was when I was visiting so I got that pleasure too). Some proper photos will be done but my guess if not strictly mint (as in handled with gloves etc), it won't be far off it. Buyer may then, if they wish, pursue encapsulation to ensure no deterioration.

Have a good weekend all, tf

I'd be interested in the 10btc, although not sure on the premium when thinking about it in terms of fiat. Will probably be hard (and not worth the risk) to sell even a 1btc Cas once BTC hits $100k+. On a side note, what is your recommended method to friends for sweeping the physical coins? Always like to hear about different methods. Thanks

Well don't worry by the time we get pics of any of these including the 10BTC, BTC might just be 100k  ;). As for sweeping here you go bud...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5274279.msg55152981#msg55152981

iBHK8

Interesting, thanks for sharing

That's funny  ;D  My apologies all. I was expecting some photos over the weekend but nothing*! I just passed on this message and they were suitably embarrassed by their inaction. Hopefully tomorrow! Thank you for your patience.

* I highly suspect had they spend a little less time chart-watching willing the price up (I know it well myself :D ), they might have gotten round to taking the photos!

Hi, thanks for your interest and sorry for my late response.
Regarding 'sweeping' or sending, it's something I've done many many times - for myself when they were low value but also more recently for friends.

I would agree with iBHK8 to use something like Ballet for the forked coins, 'airdropped' stuff etc.

However, I would first - cautiously and with very well considered steps beforehand - send your BTC to a hardware wallet address then only aftwerwards to go play with the BCH & small-fry other stuff.

I don't know if it's possible to 'sweep' without exposing the private keys online so the way I have talked people through doing it is with an out-of-the box £200 air-gapped (wifi off from first start-up) laptop with electrum installed on it from USB stick. Then with electrum also on your connected computer, you can set up watch-only wallet on that one, inputting the public key which will enable you, with the wallet able to read the blockchain, to prepare the transaction (the amount (max), the send-to address and the fee). Then you need to export the unsigned transaction and take it (either on USB or by QR code) to the air-gapped machine to import, sign and export again. You can then, with the signed transaction, input it back into the electrum on the connected machine and broadcast.

There are many variations on this theme with various degrees of security. It is essentially the same as safely spending from a paper wallet and you'll find many processes for that - some with illustrations etc. The critical thing is to remember is that until the signed transaction is broadcast and has been confirmed, you don't want there to have been *any way* the private key could be accessed by anyone (or some malware that will help itself to your funds). (Scanning the QR code to an app on your connected phone to sweep your BTC, for instance, can become a race between your legitimate app sending you the funds and malware on your phone sending them to someone else)!

Here is an excellent step by step video of what you just covered...completely agree to never have private key exposed to any hot wallet.


Securely Withdraw a Bitcoin Paper Wallet: Offline Signing with your air-gapped Phone via Electrum (https://youtu.be/-9kf9LMnJpI)

Thanks for your input on how you sweep the BTC then the forks afterwards once the most important BTC is swept and secured first! Can you or anyone else in here let me know their thoughts on that very risk you describe above regarding it's just a race to get your BTC off your phone and onto a HW wallet? I mean let's say I use Ballet or Coinomi what are the actual risks vs doing it the way you described above? I have no doubt your way is likely more secure but for any security experts in here how much more secure would that way be?

PS: Also at this very movement in time I'd have to go with Coinomi for the BTC as they allow you to set the fees and I'd obviously set them higher for the need for speed but even Coinomi's faster fees is much cheaper than Ballets one size/speed fits all unless they have updated this in their software allowing for us the owner of the Ballet cards to select which fees and how much speed we need a sweep done. Because I do feel Ballet would be more secure given the fact it's a more colder of a wallet than Coinomi just being a straight up hot wallet(a great one but still a hot wallet nonetheless). Would love any and all thoughts!


PS: Thanks for video Krogoth....will watch that soon as I want to learn as many ways as possible!
iBHK8

I tried to import/sweep a casascius on the ballet wallet app it didn't work for me. Exodus worked for me for the btc then I used coinomi to claim the forks

Coinomi as well here for forked coins...then to exchange to btc as well.

Yeah Coinomi I've found to be super easy and again it allows you to set the import/confirmation speed/fees. However I've also only ever used a Satori chip for my trials. I need to try this on some other items. Specifically Cas and BTCC as that's what I mainly hold. I'm a bit surprised that Ballet didn't work. Did you ever find out why it didn't work? What kind of errors you received etc...?

iBHK8

        The race against time he refers to is as follows...

        If for some reason you have a virus or malware specifically engineered to be able to copy your mnemonic or paper wallet...or and private key...then they can literally beat you to sweeping your coins before you do. So why take that chance when you can sign it safely offline first? Especially with a 10btc coin. Better safe than sorry

         There are also malwares that send your btc to a different address...they switch the addy at the end.

       https://www.zdnet.com/article/innfirat-malware-lurks-in-your-machine-to-steal-cryptocurrency-wallet-data/

        https://www.coindesk.com/malware-miners-torrents-passwords

        Here is a thread of a different way to carry any btc you plan on sending without actually having the btc on your hot wallet.
        I used to use this method when i met people in person and didnt want to carry the btc on my Mycelium wallet
      
         https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5106013.0

         Also make sure you download the real clean Electrum

         https://coingeek.com/hackers-steal-over-22-million-via-electrum-wallet/

        

Gotcha! Thanks Krogoth. Yeah I remember that thread you posted. Was an amazing post as usual. I've always wondered about this hence why I kinda set out to learn and continue to learn as software updates and changes came to our world. I want to know and learn as much as I can so I know in the event I have to peel I get what I own. I do need to run some other smaller random tests just so I can really be sure I know what's up etc....Will keep everyone posted if and when I do run some other tests other than a Satori and let the community here know the results step by step!

iBHK8

I input the cas mini key in the app import, and it just was stuck in sweeping mode. I then converted the mini key to a wif key on bitaddress and tried it that way as well, and it did the same thing no luck. On exodus it worked first try with the mini key. I have imported paper wallets on there no problem it works instantly maybe the app is in the process of being updated or something I'm not sure why it didn't work.

Interesting! I've never had any issues with either Ballet or Coinomi when sweeping. They both make it super easy. Not sure why that happened to you. Would love for others to give some of their feedback when they've swept. The more knowledgeable everyone is the better in that department.

I know I keep saying this but all I need now is for Ballet to allow the end user to select which fees they wish to pay upon sweeping/importing a private key. Coinomi allows for this feature whereas with Ballet it's one set fee and it's take it or leave it. If they changed that and allowed for us to be able to select low, economy, high and or a custom fee slider option I think Ballet would be the best way to go for quicker and smaller amounts no doubt. Possibly even larger amounts just depending on the person etc....

EDIT: After reading your message again I think the best way to go is to hook up Electrum to a Trezor or a Ledger(whichever you prefer or any other HW wallet out there) then once it's connected to Electrum sweep the BTC first and foremost. Then go back and use Ballet or Coinomi for the forks and rest that may or may not be sitting on that private key. Snagging the BTC is obviously paramount! I'm actually glad we all got into this discussion here again because I believe it's worth discussing from time to time. Sorry for hijacking the thread and good luck with the sale(s) Thoughtfan! I'm rooting for you and your friend!




iBHK8

I fear there may be a misunderstanding here of the process Krogoth and I are advocating. It is not my place to tell anyone what to do or not to do; nor what anyone's risk tolerance ought to be. And I'm going to risk sounding patronising here by getting a bit preachy in the hope you and / or others who see this don't jump into doing this stuff, get it wrong and get robbed.

But above in this thread (here...


... as well as in this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5300639.msg55893024#msg55893024 )

...and, I suspect, in countless other threads and videos and books about the basics of Bitcoin, there are processes devised, tried and tested to handle and to use private keys securely. If dealing with anything more than what to you is 'loose change', I highly recommend not only following these processes but also taking the time and effort beforehand to understand what a transaction consists of; what is required to prepare a transaction, how most of the process can be separated from the vulnerable bit (i.e. its signing). Because once it is understood, you will be able to see why what may initially be a daunting many-step processes is necessary; you can follow the purpose of each step and where it belongs in the process; you can get a better appreciation of the design of Bitcoin and the transaction-creating process. And when it's safely done, when you did it, you can get the satisfaction not only of knowing that the funds are safe but also from knowing that, by following an understood step-by-step that you will have consolidated that knowledge by carrying it out yourself. And, as remote a chance as there may have been (see below) that the online machines were compromised, you will know that it was all done without there being a need for a 'hold-your-breath-and-hope' moment when there was a risk of losing the coins*. (The process of using a hardware wallet will also make more sense to you if you hadn't already gotten what that process consists of.)

/soap box rant

I think there may be confusion here arising out of a more generalised use of the word 'sweeping' i.e. 'to have moved the funds from a wallet' and the technical term (and the sweeping function in wallets). As far as I understand it, it is not possible to technically sweep a wallet without the wallet being able to ascertain the 'available balance' from the blockchain therefore not possible to do on an air-gapped machine which, by the processes recommended by those who understand, is the only place you want your private keys to be until the BTC balance is safely elsewhere.

Just to be clear, the use of a hardware wallet with Electrum (or with whatever software) is separate and outside the scope of this discussion (unless we extend it further  ;D ). For our purposes, all you need with respect to your hardware wallet (if that is to be the destination of the funds you're moving from the Casascius coin) is that you need a verified address for that wallet. In other words, your hardware wallet will be set up with its own seed words and you just need a destination address for that wallet in order to prepare the transaction that will be signed by the physical coin's private key.

The use of Electrum (for the on-line machine) with respect to moving the balance from the physical coin is as a 'watch only' wallet whereby when setting it up, instead of inputting private keys (as you would to restore a low-value wallet with some funds on), you input only the bitcoin address (the part that was visible prior to peeling the sticker off). This enables that wallet, once you've put in the destination address, to find the balance on the blockchain and figure out how much 'max' is in order to create the transaction that you'll be signing on the air-gapped wallet. But I think we're going round in circles by now. I don't think I have any more to add on this process that hasn't already been said or isn't in the resources Krogoth kindly linked to.

I think Krogoth answered that one well.


The risk is simply that malware on a connected machine could potentially use your private key to move your BTC to their address quicker than your sweeping process does.


You're now asking to quantify risk which is a whole other ballgame. The odds that this could happen vary enormously with each circumstance and would be very difficult, even for a security expert, to ascertain without knowing what devices / OS you're using, what else they're used for and since when, whether you use the same device (or accounts also associated with that device) to send communications relating to cryptocurrency, how good your opsec is etc. etc. Without knowing how big an 'I own crypto' bullseye sign you've digitally drawn on your back, it's impossible to tell what the odds are. But why take that risk if you have an opportunity both to carry out this process without taking that risk and in the process, to progress your learning of what this technology is about?


All good. At least this convo is keeping the thread alive while we're waiting for these photos  :D

*You may even find the process so satisfying that you want to go through it again using Electron Cash for BCH, Electrum SV for BSV before using the simple one-step process in Ballet or Coinomi for anything else.

Wow...okay let me first start off by thanking you and Krogoth for such detail. I honestly thought I had it all worked out prior to this and had spent quite a bit of time on this a while back just to try and learn how to construct a transaction, then be able to sweep or get the BTC off of it first then go back and retrieve any forks or airdropped coins that may be on that private key. However after reading this and letting it sink in more and more the more I'm realizing I have to do much more work here and I have to absolutely learn to be more secure because you're both 100% correct in the thinking of yeah sure you might be fine doing it the way I had learned so far but why take the risk if I don't have to and I can do it SO MUCH more securely. So thank you to the both of you and again good luck with your sale. No worries on the pics. The suspense is building plus I have some learning to do! Cheers and Happy Holidays to all!

iBHK8