Bitcoin Forum

I will not be polluting with off topic messages the CM campaign. I will try to move this discussion to this topic. Let's see if it works

Edit: I don't want to talk about CM here. This is why i created a new tpoppic. This is topic is for 1BTC= 1 BTC  discussion .  Post your CM related replies in its topic.

---

I think the main problem with this discussion is that the statement is not only 1 BTC = 1 BTC

Because in the context where it was discussed, it is like
1 BTC in 2018 = 1 BTC in 2021

This is false. Time is a variable which you cannot ignore.

Let's compare with some other assets, that we do not like so much, like Apple Stocks.

Is 1 apple stock 2006 = 1 apple stock in 2021?

The dividends were much lower in 2006. The perspective of the company was completelty different: Smartphones didn't even existed!!

You can also try to think this is a different context:
Is 1 glass of water in London = 1 Glass of water in Saara desert?

If 1 BTC in 2013 = 1 BTC in 2021, you are completely ignoring demand and supply laws, all the development of the bitcoin network since 2013 and so on.

Back in 2012, when any teenager could just turn on his computer and go to school and come back with 10 BTC after a days. Are those 10 BTC back in 2012 = 10 BTC today??
This is completetly false. In 2012 those bitcoins were almost worthless. Now to get 10 btc you need to work all your life and put your life savings in it (for most people).

I'm not sure what that means. 1 BTC will be equal to 1 BTC. How could it be otherwise?

Well, it you dont read you will never know.
I am always impressed with the ability spammers have to ignore texts and write without reading

Some guys value BTC as is while others looking on the fiat value of it. This topic doesn't need further argument because we are talking about business here. In the end, The owner will be the one who will decide what will benefit him the most. And I believe who will consider the fiat value for payment unless he has allocated BTC funds for the campaign for this year.

Of course 1BTC = 1BTC but let's be honest, the fiat value of BTC is what we are valued in BTC the most.

In simple logical terms

1 BTC = 1 BTC

It will always be a fact, but once you have added the "when" question is where it's going to differ.

It's just like yourself. Most of the self-help books tell you that you should be better than who you were yesterday. And now we have been seeing the "better version" of BTC yet during the present time, and it's going to be better in the future or this time is the best. We will never know. It will always boil that people have a different opinion of whether what a certain thing is, and right now, the focus is on BTC.

One person could say it's 1 BTC for them, but 1 BTC is equal to the fiat value for other people, making total sense because some people invested in BTC with its Fiat Value and not its own value, which is 1 BTC.

So maybe we could categorize the members as

1 BTC = 1 BTC (Early adopter and didn't invest a lot/any fiat money)
1 BTC = Fiat Value (Adopter and invested a significant amount of fiat)
1 BTC ≈ Fiat/BTC (morphed vice versa into either believer of 1 BTC or the Fiat Amount)

I'm like this symbol "≈" Sometimes I would like more value with my BTC. Sometimes, I'm just accumulating more and more BTC. It depends for sure for everyone else. 

Most things change their value over time, so the time variable does play a role in what is probably the ultimate question: what can you obtain with that bitcoin in the past/present/future.

Some things acquire more value over time whilst others depreciate:

1 car 10 years ago = 1 car now. Conceptually, if you still have the same car, the functionality of the car may persist, but the value, or what you can obtain were you to sell the car now, is way different. Time has it’s weight (as well as usage, replacement availability, deterioration, and other factors thar play a role).

1 million dollars 10 years ago is 1 million dollars today, but thanks to brrr and inflation, the things you can now purchase way less than back then. You can stare at the stacks of dollars, you’ll still have the same amount, but time plays in role in devaluating its value.

1 bitcoin 10 years ago (well, a bit under 10 years really) is still 1 bitcoin today, but whilst (just under) ten years ago you could barely buy a chewing gum with one, today you can renew your car for example.

1 bitcoin on your balance is still one bitcoin today, but it’s purchasing power has changed over time. Normally, one does not stare at the balance on its own per se, but compares it with it’s purchasing power, be it in fiat or in bitcoin.

Interesting. But it seems all/most 1btc will always worth almost thesame price at any given time. 1btc that was worth few dollars many years ago will still be worth almost thesame as any other 1btc today, just as it was worth almost thesame as all/most available 1btc many years ago.

I firstly read the title and thought that you'd try to stand up for the opposite. Thankfully, I read your post and it was exactly what I wanted to say. Bitcoins are not always equally evaluated over time! For the same reason why the dollar is not equally evaluated with the dollar back in 1930. It had much more value back then, because of the basic ecomonic rules. (Demand and supply)

1 BTC in 2010 is not 1 BTC in 2020 in terms of value. Back in 2010 you could buy two pizzas with 10000 bitcoins, today you can buy some millions of pizzas. This over-enthusiastic question of the bitcoin geeks has to stop. One bitcoin is one bitcoin, only as units.

I mentioned the bitcoin geeks, because it seems that on this forum some ranks like VIP (https://bitcointalk.org/donate.html) still have the same price just like 10 years ago, which is caused by their faulty philosophy.

I will admit that I only glanced at the replies, but I think people who said that 1 BTC = 1 BTC were thinking that Chipmixer may see it that way, considering it's a Bitcoin business. They didn't change payment rates even when basically every other campaign switched to USD equivalents when Bitcoin reached its old ATH of ~20k, so it's possible that they stand their ground again now. Under that context, where fiat is not taken into equation, 1 BTC absolutely does equal 1 BTC. The obvious flaw in this assumption is that Chipmixer's costumers likely do not see things the same way, so they're probably earning less BTC-wise.

Under your context of 1 BTC being paid out in 2018 vs 1 BTC being paid out in 2021, you're absolutely correct. There shouldn't even be an explanation for this, it's definitely a lot more valuable now.

Either way, I'm pretty sure no one on the thread actually believes that rates must be kept as is just because 1 BTC = 1 BTC lol; that was probably just wishful thinking and not an actual argument. Only extreme purists really ignore Bitcoin's fiat value.

Every individual makes a good point but our thought and belief about 1BTC = 1BTC which is different are what causing the misconception. However, to get to the bottom of this issue we have to start with what causes this argument or else everything we said will be mistreatment.
The ChipMixer campaign participants that said 1BTC = 1BTC said that because the least chip the company offer is constantly 0.001BTC no matter the price of BTC in the market, it demonstrates the company itself accepted the idea of 1BTC = 1BTC

In my opinion, one Bitcoin is always one Bitcoin, if the CM team does not have any problem with their payment, then why those of us who do not work in the CM campaign have so many headaches!
Those who work in the campaign and the campaign manager will keep the rights to discuss about these additional payments.
Did they ask us for help to fix their problem?

I've seen, People are always jealous of the participants of the CM campaign, and have been trying to reduce their payments.

You're comparing the value of Bitcoin to different metrics. In the context of Bitcoin, if you solely compare in terms of BTC, there is no way it won't hold true because 1 BTC IS equal to 1BTC. Time cannot be a suitable metric. If the price of Bitcoin is the same from 10 years ago to this day, would you say that 1BTC in 13/1/2011 is equal to 1BTC in 13/1/2021? Yes. Because the price and thus it's utility would be the same (people can still buy BTC at $0.1), even though it has been a decade. You're not measuring Bitcoin in terms of the time but you're measuring it in terms of it's fiat value.

Same as the argument from a business perspective. If I paid 10k BTC for a pizza, I'll contribute millions to their profits instantly but purchasing it back in 2010 would be just a normal day for the company. The only reason is because Bitcoin's main comparison is with fiat. 1 BTC in 2011 is not equal to 1 BTC in 2021, not because of Segwit, not because it has been 10 years but because the utility of having a Bitcoin has increased immensely, which is because it's almost always pegged to fiat which has seen an exponential increase.

Well, no.. even if the price were the same in 2010 and 2020 in usd value, there is a 2% inflation per year of usd.

You could not buy the same stuff with 1 bTC at 2010 and 1 btc in 2020 even if the btc price in  usd were the same. You would lose about 20% real value. ;)

You cannot compare assets in time that way.
Well, you can, but you will get wrong results.

100 usd in 2010 is not the same as 100 usd now. Simple as that. This is why we have interest rates, inflation, etc..

Honestly, it is too hard to prove that 1 BTC is not equal to 1 BTC mathematically, or in truth, it is impossible to prove that they are not equal.  

1 BTC is always equal to 1 BTC just because it increases in value over time doesn't mean  1 BTC ≠ 1 BTC.

1 BTC way back 2009 is still equal to the 1 BTC of 2021 unless they had changed its satoshi equivalent.

But when it comes to valuation, the value of 1 BTC way back years ago is not equal to the value of 1 BTC today.

the equation should be 1 xBTC ≠ 1 yBTC where x and y is the valuation of BTC on its specified year and not just the plain 1 BTC ≠  1 BTC.

That was just my thought, I got your point @OP but the presented equation seems to make a misunderstanding.

Ripping the context gained from the subsequent paragraph:

---

Like I mention, the only reason it's brought up is to push some opinionated conjecture as fact. Likewise, when you push your semantic context onto the proposition, you transform the actual contents of the sentence. I don't like it when my sentences are strawmanned to use in someone else's argument. :)

You can say the phrase to multiple people and they'll have their own interpretation of the tautology. Some users may use '1 BTC = 1 BTC' in their arguments to add credence to false claims, like attempting to get a higher (fiat) value for a transaction, or some users may use '1 BTC = 1 BTC' to argue about the lack of central authority governing Bitcoin's supply. That's it. They are meaningless statements that are self-evident.

---

People arguing to keep the ChipMixer payments at their current rates who are trying to get a bigger paycheck, they know that the campaign should decrease the rates and probably want the discussion about it to stop. It's logical, though a bit too smarmy. Contractors don't have the stability to say, "go ahead," when they could be booted from their 'job' at any time.

It cannot be otherwise! You are right.

1 BTC = 1 BTC

is the same as

$1 = $1

This is known as fungibility, in economics ...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility

Excerpt;

"In economics, fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are essentially interchangeable, and each of its parts is indistinguishable from another part."

...

- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5285158.msg55494083#msg55494083

The main argument for Bitcoin being somewhat non-fungible usually revolves around coin origin e.g. are historical coins potentially more valuable over tainted coins etc.,

"1 BTC = 1 BTC" emerged, IIRC, as a commentary on/response to fiat-obsessed bitcoin speculators who only cared about fiat value.

if you are a true bitcoin believer then BTC is the proper unit of account---never any kind of fiat money. fiat money is just a temporary reference. purchasing power is not and never was the definition of a bitcoin, nor should it ever be.

1 BTC = 1/21,000,000th of the max monetary supply, period. if that's not how you're oriented, then you're still stuck in the old paradigm, and you don't value bitcoin as an economy unto itself.


i just think all the open speculation lacks tact. it feels icky. people with common sense understand the underlying economics and can reasonably expect what's gonna happen, but i just don't see the point in making some public spectacle out of CM's business decisions. that's why the discussion should cease and why the service thread should be cleaned up IMO.

1 btc is 1 btc why change its value in accordance to fiat currency? 1btc from 2018 is still the same 1 btc in 2021. The only difference is its market price. Why do you want to distinguish btc on 2018 and 2021? It will just make life more difficult.  We are just creating a problem in a situation where it could be simply solve. Anyway, what matter here is that btc takes another leap of its development towards aknowledgement being one of the decentralized digital currency. Btc is trending globally especially we have reach another milestone on its market.

You're right. Wrong choice of word, price should be adjusted for inflation. The rest of the argument should hold true still.

You're still measuring Bitcoin in terms of it's utility as a currency. 100 USD in 2010 is the same as 100 USD now. Sure, you can't get the same amount of marginal utility but it doesn't change the fact that the numerical value is the same.

The main argument surrounding those who are arguing that that doesn't hold true in the thread is about how spending a smaller amount of Bitcoins would've probably made no difference in the campaign. It'd be wrong to say that they were arguing from the POV of how much 1BTC can bring. Of course you'll reap more benefit from 1BTC now than 1BTC 10 years ago.

Even if you don't peg Bitcoin into fiat, isn't the 1 BTC = 1 BTC issue still wrong? Assuming that we're only going to talk about BTC itself (no pegging into fiat, or anything else), just the fact that the supply has increased let's say from 5 years ago, to the latest, is enough to say that it isn't equal right? And not to mention that there's also a lot of other factors that have influenced it. Or am I doing something wrong here? I'm assuming we're talking about the "value" of Bitcoin, and not the "numerical" one, since hell no matter how many arguments I can make, a numerical number 1 would always be 1 no matter what.

As pooya87 correctly pointed out, in the purely bitcoin context one bitcoin is always equal to another bitcoin. What that means is that on a protocol level, there is no difference between satoshis from 2010 and satoshis from nowadays (yes, there are no any bitcoins there, everything is measured in satoshis). So, we can safely assert that 1 BTC is always 1 BTC, no matter what outside conditions are because bitcoin doesn't really care what humans think about it and how it is valuable to them. That also applies to the fungibility of bitcoin, bitcoin units are indistinguishable, one bitcoin can be easily interchanged with another.

However, when it comes to the physical world, where humans are living and constantly interacting with each other, bitcoin becomes not so fungible. Yes, bitcoins are still equal, but some of them more equal than others. For example, now it takes more time and effort to obtain 1 BTC than it was back in the day. Given that time to humans is the most scarce and valuable asset, the more time we spend to achieve something, the more valuable it becomes. The value of bitcoin can be measured by the time we invested in it. In that sense, the bitcoin of the past is not equal to the bitcoin of the present. Another example of inequality in the value of equal units is again the fungibility of bitcoin. Newly mined bitcoins are worth more because they have no "criminal" history of transactions and can be barely pegged to your identity.

I think the main issue that raises this discussion is that people still don't consider bitcoin a currency and also because bitcoin price is rising A LOT over the long time. If the rise were small and if they thought of it as a currency this discussion would have never taken place in first place.

If you think about it, you will never hear anyone make the same arguments about fiat even though $1 (2008) =/= $1 (2021) since it has lost a lot of its value due to inflation. But since USD is considered a currency and the inflation rate is not huge and even if it were (like some other fiat currencies) it is something we are used to after decades of inflation.

From a financial point of view,1 BTC from 2021 is NOT equal to 1 BTC from the past years.The BTC price is different and the BTC market is different,compared with all the previous years.
From a technical point of view,1BTC=1BTC,because Bitcoin Core wasn't divided or forked(I'm not counting BCH,BSV and all the forked altcoins/shitcoins,that claim to be Bitcoin)and the total BTC supply didn't change.
I think that most of the people are making the mistake of mixing the financial with the technical side of Bitcoin.

OP, 1 BTC IS 1 BTC. Fiat value doesn’t exist in the blockchain, BUT outside the blockchain, we need to value it in fiat just to know how much purchasing power your Bitcoin has in the real world, nothing else.

Whether you consider it a currency or not, when its value gets doubled within a week, you can't really state that. I hate to say that but since most of the people see it as an investment, it is mostly an investment.

The inflation rate is huge, but that's not the problem. The problem with inflation comes when you want to save money. Making day-to-day transactions with the dollar isn't bad, because you're living the rates.

Inflation doesn't hurt the currency short-term. It hurts it long-term, that's why none saves on the dollar. But as I explained above, if most people were seeing dollar as an investment, it wouldn't be a currency at all.

Actually regular people do acknowledge that $1 today is not the same as $1 in the past, this is why when someone writes an article about comparing prices with the past, they use inflation adjustment. People just assume that on a scale of 1-15 years the difference is not big enough to complicate their calculations with inflation adjustment.

With Bitcoin this just happens to a much greater extent, its price more than tripled in recent months, and in context of Chipmixer, there's something like x35 increase since the start of the campaign. It's absolutely normal to question whether these payment rates are sustainable.

They might acknowledge it passingly, with one of those, "in my day I could buy x with y; back in my day a dollar bought you," mentions without the deeper lifestyle changes. I still know of some people that believe the US Dollar is still backed completely by gold.

The rampant consumerist materialism that has infiltrated the masses through cultivated corporate propaganda continues to peddle people towards useless shit while their wages decrease: how great to get a 2% raise when your savings asset underperforms a magnitude above that. How many people saw the stimulus coming and thought about diverting liquid savings into alternate assets to prevent depreciation?

I think it could be easy.

As you all know here, there can be only 21.000.000 BTC in the world. So it was predetermined by the creator. But it seems to me that the turnover will be less than this figure.

And here's why I think so:
- By now, many people have lost access to their wallets\coins forever, i.e. some % of BTC have already been taken out of circulation.
- It should be added that some people in the future will also lose access to their wallets\coins for various reasons. Unforeseen circumstances happen in life and there are many such examples. This, in turn, further increases % of irretrievably lost BTC.
- Most of BTC mined by Satoshi is stored on he's wallet. Most likely, if Satoshi doesn't return, then this part of the coins is also lost forever.

So it turns out that there will never be  21.000.000 BTC in circulation. Their maximum possible number is already less than this figure and will only decrease over the years, which will add even more value to BTC.

1 BTC not = 1 BTC. Value of 1 BTC above 1 BTC.

I ask you to understand and forgive if somewhere I expressed myself put it not quite right and correct me or add what I may miss.

Updated: here's a recent example (- 7,002 Bitcoin. Most likely forever too)- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5308918.msg56081551#msg56081551

The Chipmixer discussion went that high that even cz_binance left his opinion on that 1btc=1btc.
With this rates I have the feeling that he might be part of the signature campaign :P
Since I cannot embed tweets here, here's a pic.
https://i.imgur.com/nrHatwf.png
Source> https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1349215711453880321

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/56254109/envy-envy-everywhere.jpg

Yes, why would anyone compare btc from the past few years where in fact it started I guess @ 1$ per btc? 1$ btc vs 40k$ btc is still 1 btc the only thing that matters is that before only little know about bitcoin and utilize it compare now that many are utilizing bitcoin making it as an asset of investment form. So, 1btc is 1 btc nothing less nothing more. Hopefully, I could get 1 btc in the future with the help of the forum. Well, I am only just wishing it who knows one day!

The price is always the price.

1 BTC = 1 BTC


$1 = $1

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/411/867/6c2.jpg

...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/411/868/64d.jpg

Word.

::)

About the statement that 1 BTC = 1 BTC

• It is constantly right over the whole lifespan of bitcoin.
• Only price of bitcoin in fiat changes over time. The changes can come from one of two sides or both of them: price of bitcoin increases or bailout of government-backed fiats that change over time and different by fiat to fiat.
• The fact so far is: people change from use bitcoin for their bitcoin transactions to smaller units of bitcoin such as satoshi.

---

• Will Bitcoin fall to zero? Be woke with changes of No. of BTC with $ 1 million (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288360.0)
• Bitcoin: An Unprecedented Experiment in Fair Distribution (https://coinmetrics.io/bitcoin-an-unprecedented-experiment-in-fair-distribution/)

My main point here is the time variable, and the scarcity.

1 BTC 2010 = 1 BTC 2021?

It is not.

Anyone could mine 50 BTC at 2010 with less than 100 USD. You just had to bought an old laptop, mine for a few hours, and you would get a full block reward.

How much does it cost to get 50 BTC nowadays? You would need to mine almost 8 blocks alone. How much would take cost? Probably something close to 1 million dollars of equipment and eletricity?

Bitcoin is now more scarce than it was in 2010. As it is more scarce now than in 2018.

1 BTC in 2010 = 1  BTC in 2020 is the same as saying 1 glass of water in london = 1 glass of water in the Saara Desert. It is not!

This basic economics. Supply and demand.


Blockchain cannot be mined without the real world. Without electricity and equiment there is no mining. Without mining there is no bitcoin.
You cannot remove the blockchain from the context it is inserted. This is what PoW is about:  physics, electricity, equipment, energy.

---

It is sad to see almost all replies are talking about campaign payrates, I though this topic could move away from that, which is almost a philosophic discussion...

When we are in campaign discussion, people go off-topic about 1BTC=1 BTC or whatever.
When we come to a new topic for off-topic discussion, people talk about campaign lol

;D Haha. If you don't report off topic posts, let it be.

No. You are conflating other economic factors and externalities such as;

Opportunity cost
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Sunk cost
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

Paradox of value
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value

Externality
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

Inflation
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

etc.,

Again, Bitcoin is Fungible.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility

1 BTC = 1 BTC

$1 = $1

1 Pizza = 1 Pizza

That is the answer here.

1BTC can't equal 1BTC even in a span of just 24h.....

Lest we wouldn't be having the green +(so and so percent) or the red -( so and so percent) on the 24hr price change charts....
Am I making a sense

No. The market moves up and down because Bitcoin is fungible.

1 BTC = 1 BTC

See above post.

...

Which one is heavier ? A ton of feathers or a ton of lead ? ...

I dont think this has anything to do with fungibily.
1 btc = 1 btc as long as both are in the same time.

All btc In 2018 have the same value, which is not the same as that same btc (or any other) in 2021.

Usd is also fungible,
 1 usd 1830 = 1 usd 2021?
This makes no sense at all.

Maybe you live in a decent country where inflation rate is controlled and you may never had the opportunity to think about it.

But people from developing countries understand this very well.  Money value varies over time.
In brazil we lived more than 100% inflation per month. Interest rates are real here.

1 brl today is not the same as 1 brl tomorrow.  Eventhough Everyone will accept any brl today and tomorrow,  the same coin is different over time.

This is not about fungibility

What he said^

People are, one jealous(which is understandable), and two, trying to farm impressions either by trying to support CM participants, or trying to bring in points against them.

Let CM handle its business, and I think I can speak for everyone in CM campaign when I say, whatever decision they make; it won't affect us. Because we care more about life than how much we get paid weekly by CM. Sole reason why you don't see any CM participant farm and make 50 posts every consecutive week.

As for the point of 1 BTC= 1 BTC, from a normal person point of view: they only care about its fiat value.

Chipmixer as a business uses btc as its main forefront, but they would still have to deal in fiat for most of their business operations/payments. So it is really only up to how they think and NOT how we think.

1 BTC = 1 BTC all the time but their purchasing power was/is /will be changing all the time as well.

In 2010

2 Pizzas were bough using 10000 bitcoins

In 2017 you bought 1300+ Pizzas with 1 bitcoin

in 2021 you can buy 2600+ Pizzas with 1 bitcoin.

If the answer was to depend on the context of the argument then 1BTC = 1BTC regardless of the previous and current price of the market or the coin unit since the conpany in the subject operations are also based in crypto not fiat currency.

The company was the long existing tumbler in terms of campaign and services even when some tumbler site have problems with the authorities and security vulnerabilities they kept their services intact certainly they can afford it but the decision is theirs not ours.

Totally agree with this. I haven't even bothered to participate in this BTC-pegged-to-USD debate. At least that's how I view it as.

Generally when you are the elephant in the room you tend to get the most attention from humans, who don't even look dwarf-sized in comparison to elephants. That's kind of how I view signature campaigns and Chipmixer.


https://i.imgflip.com/4tq7st.jpg

Jokes aside, 1BTC = 1BTC is already a mathematically proven axiom about self-equality. There's not much more to debate about that except for people's theorems based on this axiom (or its contradiction). There is a certain writing style you need to learn just to write down proofs of math theories. The beauty of it is that it does not allow opinions about theories to be included, so just the facts are left for you to process. :)

I will close this topic, as it became a discussion whether cm should or not increase/decrease pay rates and what do people think about it. This wasn't the idea when I created this topic, but most replies were about it.