Bitcoin Forum

I know Bitcoin is running on a proof of work consensus algorithm. Recently I discovered proof of stake by reading up a bit on Cardano and Ethereum's 2.0 plans.

What is the difference between these two, how does POS reduce the energy required to mine a block transaction and are either of these more secure than the other? Basically what are the pros and cons of each.

Also if POS consumes less energy, then wouldn't it be a good idea for Bitcoin to transition to a POS algorithm?

PoS works by people staking their coin. . no intense computation needing superior hardware
it creates no value. there is no 'cost' in mining. people can put their stake in. and later take it out. no loss

this makes altcoins with PoS have no underlying value in its coin creation. thus reliant on value from the features of what that coin can do/be used for after the creation to keep the coin active/alive.

bitcoin has a real cost of creation via the mining hardware. much like golds underlying cost is in gold mining costs.

because it costs $10's of thousands in electric/hardware to make just one bitcoin. (more precisely hundreds of thousands per 6.25 reward) that gives bitcoin a baseline value. which no one wants to sell below. thus giving bitcoin a good actual store of value.
yes there is the vapour/speculative/bubble premium ontop thats volatile. but thats the same with gold

golds underlying cost value is like $1k and the rest of the 'premium' that makes up the combined 'spot' price is the speculative supply/demand, hype

the only reason people want PoS is because the fantasy of profit for nothing. or no-loss profit. but the thing about PoS is if a coin was successful and everyone was using it. eventually the slicing up of the reward being split between everyone involved would leave everyone with nothing. thus majority lose interest

PoS is just a fantasy of getting rich for free. whereby it only really works by pump and dumping the coin to keep it viable and entertaining enough to avoid just turning into a zero utility coin.

because the amount of blocks are limited a viable coin would end up with people having to syndicate their stake into a group of people. much like how bitcoin mines in groups. thus again making it no different and having the same competition. but with an PoS altcoin its a fight to the bottom rather than with bitcoin which is a fight to the top

bitcoins mining method is more secure then PoS and the more hardware competition to mine = stronger hashing which cant be undone as cheap. bitcoins security grows.  cost grow. meaning base value grows.

altcoin PoS security does not grow. no matter how much is staked. and if it got popular. there would end up being more people wishing to break an altcoin for quick riches rather than stick to the rule. PoS only survives by having a small userbase of stakers and just enough enticement and fantasy to keep it active.

basically the more that use bitcoin the stronger it gets.. the more that use PoS altcoins the weaker it gets. but it requires enough peters to pay pauls so that the early stakers can leave, but have enough later stakers to keep the fantasy alive.

PoS is not a thing you want to use for something as big as bitcoin.

Welcome to the community, I suggest you read the following threads below regarding the PoW vs PoS arguments it's pros and cons:

• POW vs. POS (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3789535.0)
• PoW vs PoS- Proof-of-Stake Might be the Winner here (Save the Environment) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5056705.0)
• PoW vs PoS (Decentralized) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5197995.0)
• PoW and PoS; Pros and Cons (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5324025.0)

What you have just explained has made me wonder about something. Do you think that the rise in electricity prices that is happening in many parts of the world, especially where it is being mined the most now like the US, is going to affect the price of Bitcoin? It should, I'd say, even though we are in a bull market I guess it is another factor that will push the price up.

In my own humble view, I think that the rise of electricity prices will not have considerable push-up effect on the price of BTC...the price is always determined by the market forces so it can go up and go down anytime and sometimes for no reason at all. Now, having said that, the electricity prices can affect mainly the profits that can be gained from Bitcoin mining just like any other business as this is a major expense. Right now, the USA has gained the top hand in BTC mining and not anymore China...this can certainly be exerting more demand for power and there is that talk to exploit wasted energy so they can be converted to cash rather than just have them released to the environment.

put it this way. chinese mining at say 140exa hash had a $20k underlying value.. meaning no one dares sell below $20k unless foolishly making a bug in their trade bot.

now majority of mining maybe outside of china. the lowest cost value is already higher. so say america is majority the average underlying value is about $37k

meaning thats the new 'bottom' and toughest resistance to break that no one will dare sell below
so its not just hash power but also yes electrical price. slowly making the min price ever to be seen again be on a rise. supporting the price from ever going below a certain value.
the only time this bottom value support can decline is if hashrate declines

my and pokers conversations about VALUE. is not about PRICE

again gold VALUE is ~$1k whilst the SPOT PRICE is like $1.8k

market forces (speculation hype, pump and dump bubble) is the PRICE determiner..

but the underlying VALUE is the determiner of the LOW where people stop selling down. you know the ultimate bottom.

electric and hash power does not determine the mid(active/spot) or any ATH(all time high) as again for emphasis thats the market speculation premium layer of volatility.

but the underlying value is the low

imagine it like farming fruit. it costs a farmer 20cents to grow an apple but the retail price for a customer is 60cents.
the price can swing up and down from the 60cents but will never go below 20 cents because thats the price the farmer costs it at to sell to supermarkets.. and supermarkets are not stupid enough to sell at a loss.

so whilst retail PRICE is market determined. value COST is cost determined.

have a nice day

I see. Wow this makes a lot of sense. POS doesn't provide the inherent value that POW does. So coins like Cardano are solely regulated by supply and demand.

But how does POS actually validate a transaction? Bitcoin miners have to solve the puzzle, but POS miners just have lots of the coin??

And this won't happen to bitcoin because the miners are controlling the value of the coin. makes sense.

Thanks for the links. Helped a lot :)

Bitcoin is PoW, it is in the whitepaper. However, if everybody agrees, yes bitcoin may switch to PoS as well but I don't think it is going to happen. Some people say PoS is not as safe as PoW and we still don't know if this is right. Eth and cardano doing well so far. So maybe, the hesitations might be baseless.

The truth is that shitcoins such as ETH have massive premines (72 million Ether to be exact) and are centralized. The centralized authority wants to take advantage of the "get paid just because you own something" feature of PoS and switch to it. They are also aware that their shitcoin is losing its hype and slowly miners are leaving it behind specially as it dumps and mining becomes less and less profitable and in PoW when you lose miners you lose security and soon enough these shitcoins will be filled with 51% attacks every day.

So they sell PoS as a "solution" to their naive users by using fake arguments such as "low electricity cost" while ignoring all the serious flaws in PoS.

You already answered your own question, the keyword was "many" (although it is only some countries) not all. Miners will migrate to places where they can freely and cheaply mine and there are many countries with very low electricity cost, low tax, cheap labor, better climate and are friendly to bitcoin.

The more coins you have staked, the greater your chances to mine the next block. Your mining power or potential to validate blocks is determined on how much of the native token you already own and have put up for staking.

You can find plenty of articles on the subject if you google "how are transactions confirmed in POS coins" or some combination like that. 

It is certainly never going to happen, maybe in another lifetime or metaverse, not this one  ;)


Time will tell, PoS hasn't been fully implemented on ETH network. As for Cardano, no one is sure how things would be if the network had huge transaction volumes.

The rest of the other PoS experiments dubbed Ethereum killers in the previous bull run like EOS, TRON are already leaving below expectations in terms of market value

Why wouldn't it happen? If enough consensus raises, anything can happen.

Most of the major updates weren't in the whitepaper and they happened anyway.

You know what they say, never say never.

If PoW becomes unsustainable, I am pretty sure PoS will be the next step but that's one big if.

It's not just some countries, there are miners spread practically all over the world, if you mean that only in some countries there is a significant percentage of miners, I would agree.

And I would qualify the second part of what you say as well. The migration of miners from China mainly to the US was not because in the US electricity was cheaper than in China, it was because of a political issue. Since then, the price of energy there has been rising in the US. I suppose some will be considering going elsewhere if it continues to rise, but there are many factors to take into account:

1) Moving mining has a monetary and time cost, as well as an effect on the market. When the miners left China many had to sell Bitcoins they had been holding and there was a downturn in the market.
2) They cannot move to a place where the energy is cheaper but there is legal insecurity that makes it possible for the government of the day to prohibit mining in a few months, in addition to confiscating equipment and other measures.
3) The remaining countries with relatively cheap energy are either because they have a lot of nuclear power plants or because they do not comply with the CO2 emission agreements, and there are fewer and fewer of these available, especially if we take into account that they have to meet other requirements, such as legal certainty, etc.

I say this because with your sentence it seems that it is an easy thing, that if energy becomes expensive they leave and that's it, and first it is not so easy, and second it also has a cost, for themselves and for the market.

Proof of Work                                        Proof of Stake

Proof of Work secures the                Proof of Stake is a
network and generates new             consensus mechanism
coins as rewards.                               that locks up crypto to
                                                              secure the network. It
                                                              ensure only legitimate
                                                              transactions are added
                                                              the block.

It is powered by peer operated        Validators lockup the
nodes around the world with no     crypto. They're then
central authority.                                chosen at random to
                                                              verify transactions and
                                                              receive associated fees

POW requires miners to use            In POS miners dedicate
hardware resources to secure        their crypto to secure
the network.                                       the network.

POW is high energy consuming.     More projects are now
Bitcoin blockchain is upon POW.    following POS.


Source : Google Search (https://www.google.co.in)

The thing with PoS is, it promotes hoarding and lets the few people with huge number of coins control the blockchain. It requires little to no electricity in generating a block, yes, but the security of the network lies on the hands of the few people having tons of coins on their disposal. For PoW, complicated mathematical algorithms ensure that the network's security is always at its prime, and in order to beat the algorithms in place and rewrite even a small portion of the blockchain, one must have spent an immense amount of resources (electricity, time, and money) before they can achieve it.

Bitcoin IMO will not switch to such an algorithm any time soon. It will still keep PoW as it remains to be the most ideal algorithm in terms of security for bitcoin.

Bitcoin too is doing fine with PoW, it ensures security and robustness of BTC blockchain. The issue of too much power consumption by bitcoin is as old as hills and IMO its just over hyped. Eth has not switched over to PoS yet as,
Altair, Ethereum 2.0’s first hard fork, is expected to come into effect by the end of the month —  the point where the original proof-of-work Ethereum blockchain will transition to Ethereum 2.0’s proof-of-stake consensus mechanism. Source (https://www.businessinsider.in/investment/news/ethereum-altair-hard-fork-threatens-competitive-advantage-of-solana-cardano-and-others/articleshow/86863524.cms)

Whether its PoW or PoS, they both are same way of climbing the same mountain. As PoW is centralized along miners that can afford expensive mining equipment and electricity bills, in PoS those who can stake huge amount of coins will grab the major share of mining.

That's also what I am starting to think lately. Why waste so much electricity when you can just have the same security with PoS? If the issue is centralization, there it is already here with the miners. One way or another there will always somebody/some entity will control the majority of the chain. You can't really prevent this.

Research what a Perpetual Motion Machine is, that’s what Proof of Stake truly is. Plus the mere possibility of considering that Proof of Stake could replace Proof of Work, is someone who has not truly taken the time to understand how Bitcoin’s incentive structure works, and WHY it works.

PoW vs PoS thread number 5234, same arguments
Peercoin the oldest PoS coin is a dead fish in the water
Blackcoin  (https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/blackcoin/) the oldest PoW->PoS is even worse currently trading at $0.06 with an all time high of over $1
If someone wants to prove his stake he was able to do so for the last few hundred years, just needs to buy some shares and he is proving his stake

Peercoin has been staking since 2012 at a 1% reward.
What does it mean in real life, well it inflated at over 3% (average 3.11% past 7 years, from 2014) that is even worse than fiat.

Year	Total Supply	New Coins	Inflation	new % per year
2012	15094912	15094912		100%
2013	20982872	5887960	22,77%	39,01%
2014	21971814	988942	3,82%	6,55%
2015	22867470	895656	3,46%	5,93%
2016	23738826	871356	3,37%	5,77%
2017	24544131	805305	3,11%	5,33%
2018	25116222	572091	2,21%	3,79%
2019	25854837	738615	2,86%	4,89%
2020	26634490	779653	2.93%	5,17%

Bitcoin halves supply every 4 years so energie consumption halves with it as unprofitable miners are forced to shut down.
Bitcoin now at about 1,6% coin emission rate, 0,8% next halving......

Its not like that PoS doesn't take any energy. So while it may not be a PMM, they surely are centralized when it comes to being crypto. All of this talk about "validators" happens because ultimately, you need computing power to bundle transactions into blocks and propagate them. That is why all the so-called "PoS nodes" have requirements like 64 GB RAM, Multi-core processors etc etc. A lot of them are even permissioned in the sense that you have to contact some central authority to run the nodes.

I see them not as cryptocurrencies but simple blockchain based databases that are run by certain corporations. Whenever transactions rise, the corporation simply buys up more cloud servers or just set up dedicated hardware of their own. Quite clearly, the people who want to use smart-contracts for lending and borrowing don't mind this as long as they get returns fuelled by speculation and Bitcoin's bullrun.

PoS has a market now and i think it'll have a purpose until regulation reins them in and only Banks can run these services. Bitcoin's PoW ensures that it just remains to be money and the only truly uncensorable exchange medium on the internet.

Proof of Stake works in a different manner than Proof of Work. Yes it is a much efficient energy-wise and a much faster system for large-scale cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, but it would also require the consensus of multiple computation systems that will be unified under one single server. If everyone would be willing to chip in some of their computational power and unify it through the cloud, then proof of stake would work. Proof Of Work eliminates the middle man by allocating a dedicated computational system where transactions will be facilitated, this is of course only applicable for small forms of cryptocurrency with little potential for scalability. When the last bitcoin is mined/bought, it would be harder for everyone to facilitate transactions more so afford them because the system will be overloaded and as a countermeasure, will charge higher fees and would slow the process down for the rest in queue. The thing about POS is it ensures efficiency of service and the price of each transaction which in theory should work, especially for coins with high potentials for scalability like bitcoin and ethereum, with these two being the most common victims of the shortcomings POW has.

Blockchain has trilemma in terms of scalability, security and decentralisation. If we talk about PoW, then it has performed well under the umbrella of BTC. It has scalability issues but its secure and ensures decentralisation of btc. While we have yet to see PoS working under a decentralized coin like Ethereum.
After the last btc will be mined, there will be a fee that will be paid to miners as reward. Like I said PoW has scalability issues but still with this issue btc manage to grab over 1 trillion usd cap. I m very much sure PoW can manage the load after last btc is mined as its tested under extreme load.

It is like saying "if enough consensus gathers we will censor bitcoin"!
There are certain principles in bitcoin that will never change, one of the most important ones is security which will be removed if PoS replaces PoW.
All you could say is that if PoW becomes problematic a new but better algorithm will replace it but it definitely won't be PoS.

I still haven't seen any proof of this apart from what the news sites said and a single study with unverifiable data. I'm not saying this is or isn't true, but we simply have no evidence.

US isn't so friendly to bitcoin either. I'm sure that if it continues to grow and specially start threatening US dollar they will start cracking down hard.

It wasn't since then though. US and Europe have been having some energy problems and with increasing gas prices the electricity cost has been rising for some time now.
In fact this is one of many reasons why I have trouble believing that Chinese miners moved from Asia (that has a lot of countries with super cheap electricity and friendly to bitcoin) to US (that has higher electricity price that is increasing and is not as positive towards bitcoin).

Nobody "had to" sell bitcoin, and it wasn't miners. It was traders and weak hands and they panic sold which is part of market manipulation that happens every now and then for different reasons!

Let bitcoin be used in a couple of big international trades replacing USD and the US miners will see what "legal insecurity" really means when they get raided in the name of "national security" ;D

The key difference between Proof of Work and Proof of Stake consensus is that miners in PoW are to confirm transactions and add to blockchain this way they get rewards while validators in PoS are to lock up (stake) their coins and they get reward for this in coins that they stake. The more you stake, the more you earn. And in terms of PoW, who has solved the problem first gets rewards.

The key difference between Proof of Work and Proof of Stake
Proof of Work = miners are like a notary witness a transaction and sign it
Proof of Stake = is like banks, money transmitters, receiving a payment and routing it to the receiver ('touch' it for a split second)

You are forgetting countries such as Russia or Kazakhstan. Some miners surely migrated there as we can see from the increase in hashrate in those territories. It's closer to them than USA is and presents a decent alternative.

Packing up and leaving the country and the continent to go to the US to mine Bitcoin isn't as straightforward as many think. They are people with families and children who live and work in China. It's not that easy to leave all that behind. You need to purchase or rent a location from where you will mine in a brand-new country with unfamiliar laws and language (maybe). The equipment that consists of thousands of miners has to be packed up and shipped overseas. This is also expensive and requires additional paperwork and time.

Very good points indeed.
Another important factor that has been overlooked is that the US-China relations are terrible, they are even speaking of world war 3 these days! Why would Chinese miners migrate to US in this situation when there are closer countries some of which are China's allies.

as for the shift in price.

imagine it this way

take it as a percentage
say 40% was in china at $0.04
say 10% was in khazahkstan at $0.05
say 20% was in america was at $0.12
say 30% was in europe was at $0.18

the average would be 9.9cents per %
now lets take out china

say 40% was in khazahkstan at $0.05
say 30% was in america was at $0.12
say 30% was in europe was at $0.18

the average would be 11cents per %
so although this is demo numbers and % per region is not accurate(random demo numbers). it just demonstrates the average is now 11cent

what you actually find out is this though
instead of 40% (chinese) willing to sell coin based on a low cost of $0.04% . meaning 40% would sell bitcoin real cheap if the price was to crash.
now its a situation of in this demo only 30% willing to sell at the next price point as the MINIMUM anyone willing to sell

so the situation is simple. if we imagine that the thousands of asics needed to mine in china led to say a combined cost of hardware, facility, labour of say $20k. ($4k being electric)

khazahkstan would become the next lowest cost. whereby facility, labour hardware is $22 and electric $5k makes the lowest cost mining now $27k instead of $24k

and as said instead of china 40% willing to at worse case sell down to $24k..
the newer situation in this demo. now has the lowest sentiment now being only 30% wanting to sell down to $27k worse case

Good point! Still, it's important to always make a distinction between the people and the governments. The relationships between those in power are bad, but unfortunately, it's the little guy who suffers the consequences. Those appointed to make decisions impose sanctions that don't affect them that much.

The averagely intelligent and educated American don't see the Chinese people as their enemies, and vice versa. Negative thoughts are born when your existence and job security is threatened. Based on recent events, Chinese miners can't and shouldn't have positive things to say about the actions of their government.   

actual relations with china are not bad at all. its the media perception thats bad.
did you know that while media news were screaming that china is an enemy. THOUSANDS of businesses were shaking hands with china.
yep right now this second there are mcdonalds, kfc, nike, and pepsi and thousands of brands happily working in china. the media perception does not like US business going to china, but they cant stop it. so instead media presents china as a bad place to go to. yet business sees a new customer base of 1.3 billion people and if they can just earn $10 per person they can earn $13billion from china.

US media has been screaming WW3 with china for longer then most of us have been alive. yet everyday we all trade and work with the chinese.


large asic farms can afford to move. its the residential hobby miners that are stuck. they are the ones told to just stay in place but shut down and stop working in mining coin

Part of the problem here is the assumption that energy usage Is the problem.   That is the re framing the question by people who want to continue to control all money.  < Thats a complicated topic by itself.  Most people wont even see it due to the fact that they just repeat the question.  Once you are just repeating the question you've lost control of the topic. 

POS systems are inherently centralized systems.  Thus very few people are in control of the system.  The less people in control those systems means the human factor which is inherently flawed will at some point cause it to break or corrupt in some manner. 

POW systems tend to be A Lot less centralized and the human factor Tends to be less of a problem.  But its not a perfected system. Case in point would be Vitaliks reversal of a large transaction a few years ago. Despite ETH being POW Vitalik has centralized control. He doesn't exercise it but its there. The fact that its there proves that the human corruption faction is Very possible with ETH.  ETH moving to POS simply increases that problem.

Bitcoin Has No single person or small group able to do such a thing, thus its value.  At some point in the future due to Pareto distribution problems there will be in my opinion too few people in control of bitcoins processing power thus it might as well be centralized.  But that day hasn't arrived and cannot be worried about a problem that hasn't occurred yet.

I am very sure lots of people smarter then me are thinking about this problem.

bitcoin mining does not have a centralisation problem

take antpool which for half a decade was smeared as being "china" truth is antpool as 3 stratums. one china, one american one european. so china cant exactly just shut antpool down.
all antpool need to do is change its website/server. a 2 second job, and business as usual if authorities came knocking.

as for mining farms. they suffer from what is known as facility limit. they can only house a certain amount of asics per building. again no pain for them. they can have several buildings. even less pain the buildings dont even have to be at same location. they can simply remote control which 'work' to sent to each building no matter the location.

as for the pareto problem. bitcoin is different. although the top 3 pools have most the hashpower. the hashpower is not all their own. its users voluntarily linking to that pool. and users if they see their pool getting to 50% most see their 'slice' of the reward get thinner and thinner.  and so they pool jump

there is however a 'class divide' problem
where home hobby miners with 1-3 asics due to residential limits on electric circuits. and affordability of only a couple low efficiency asics (s9) mean that their daily income per kwh is less than say a mining farm

this is also shown as a divide because say for instance an s9 at 14thash. vs an s19pro at 110thash has a 8x efficiency of hashes for only 2.5x of electric draw... the hardware price however is not in the 3-8x area.

it costs more then 8x price of a s9 which prices people out of gaining in the electric efficiency
.


lastly. as for the PRICE.
people keep forgetting the bitcoin price is never and has never been based on all coins in circulation.
most(all currently) price movements are not movements caused by people having to own a whole bitcoin to put that whole bitcoin on a orderbook to sell at the whole bitcoin price just to trigger a movement.
instead people are making orders of 0.001($60) and making the price move a bit at a time. so the price does not need whales with hundreds of bitcoins
yes it would be good to have all the whales put in 'beached whale' orders(walls) at sat $55k so that no matter how many sellers want to sell they will never devour a $55k wall
but my point is the bitcoin price is not based on masses of coin

It currently doesn't,  I totally acknowledge that it may never be a problem.  But Humanity is the one buying and selling thus the reality of the Pareto distribution says otherwise.

As @Dave already mentioned in the first posts there are already many topics about POS and POW and in these topics, you can easily understand the difference between these two but if you want to have a real short definition let's say the pow algorithm works whenever you mine the coins using physical miner devices or your personal computer and in this method any miner should stay online during mining to get the clocks confined while in pos you won't need any devices and not even a simple computer, you coins are mining for you and you will earn more share if you have more coins for staking, Tron can be one good example of pos coins.

I disagree with that first statement, since there's essentially the same "intrinsic value" for both PoW and PoS coins, which is what you wrote in your second statement, i.e., they're worth whatever people are willing to pay for them based on various factors.  I don't buy that whole "bitcoin is backed up by all the work and electricity involved in their creation" argument.  I never did, because it makes no sense to me.

The good thing about PoS coins is that you can earn income from them, which isn't the case with bitcoin.  And a few of them are useful for their smart contract functionality and so forth.  The main problem I see with them in terms of their utility as currency is that people are incentivized to hold them and not spend them--and that also isn't true for bitcoin.

You have to admit, PoW coins do use up a lot of electricity, even if it's a small amount compared to other things.  I happen to like the idea of being able to mint new coins simply by running a wallet, but I'm also aware that that particular feature can lead to centralization of the coin if the majority of them are in the hands of whales. 

You are completely changing the discussion. I'm not talking about a franchise with a huge chain everywhere deciding whether to open a new shop in another country.

We are talking about a small business known as bitcoin miners that have a dozen options in front of them to migrate from China to one of them. I'm saying that for such miners there are lots of much better options available compared to US for many reasons that I mentioned earlier one of which was political relations.

Otherwise you are right about other stuff, China has US economy by the balls and talks of WW3 is a joke mainly because US military has been a joke for at least 60 years. :D

Pow will give every share of computing power an equal opportunity to become the master of the Bitcoin system.

maybe if you take a break. sit back and relax for like 30 minutes and realise.. PRICE IS NOT VALUE

many people think the only thing that exists in life is the price. one point of measure. one level..
however this is not true.

the PRICE is made up of layers. like a sandwich

PoS is a meatless lettuce and tomato sandwhich...
PoW is a BLT of bacon lettuce and tomato

yes both have lettuce and tomato. but your missing out on the bacon
the underlying value is the bacon..
the lettuce and tomato is the supply demand sentiment

imagine gold. as explained before.. the cost of the diggers, the labour, the diesel the sluice machines the licences of water/land rights. all form an undeniable underlying cost.
however treasury bank notes. have no real cost. its like a quarter of a penny to print a piece of paper smaller then a post card

notice the difference
yes a $2k bank note and a $2k gold nugget both have the same PRICE. but their values are different.
people would rather have the nugget. as the paper bank notes price wont be as good in 20 years as a nugget

a bank note in 20 years will buy less loaves of bread than a nugget would

take anything. fruit. bread.. dont ever look at it as just the retail price.. learn and understand the wholesale price the manufacturing cost. then you will start to see if different items are being sold at excessive profit or at good value. never judge value based on retail price but based on how much they are skimming off customers from the underlying cost

POW has the best security available but comes with certain tradeoffs as you've mentioned. Even POS has its own benefits and shortcomings. A POW chain is very expensive to run and that's why even ethereum is going POS mode soon. Why I don't like longer transaction finality and high tx fees, I do like the security and level of decentralization achieved on Bitcoin compared to other chains where users delegate to validators.

They were disappointed with ETH too and yet that didn't stop ETH from making a new ATH. Miners are just paid slaves of the network. If people approve the changes, miners will have to accept it. Otherwise they'll mine an empty chain just like they are doing with bcash. Remember how they all didn't want segwit and they approved it anyway.

In my understanding Mr.Satoshi Nakamotto developed only POW and all other algorithms are derived version of Satoshi's idea and not proven against mass transactions and double spending. So, I guess that we cannot expect bitcoin to be adopting a new algorithm for any reasons. Personally I have good opinion on POS algorithm as all the money required for mining are not moving away from the ecosystem but being spent within ecosystem which will definitely get more value for a coin.

We cannot underestimate Mr.Satoshi Nakamotto's works hence at first hand I guess we cannot dream about getting into POS algorithm for simple reasons. Probably bitcoin may opt for hybrid mining thing like both POW and POS and the block rewards to be split to both kind of miners in extreme conditions like POW needs some modifications.

How's that? It's not immediate, but you do earn bitcoins if you already have bitcoins, if you think about it. If those owned bitcoins allow you to purchase mining equipment and you're willing to pay electricity for those ASICs, then you've essentially created new bitcoins by owning bitcoins.

In PoS, one creates coins just because they prove they own coins. But, isn't the same thing with bitcoin, after all? Isn't computational power translated into cost which can be paid with bitcoins?

Many, biasedly, skip this.

I've had this discussion with you in the past and you repeat this very mistake. The cost DOES NOT mean the minimum market value in bitcoin and thus, it is wrong to compare it with gold. Gold costs a specific amount of monetary units to be extracted from the ground and the buyer has to pay those at least so that it can be profitable for the seller. But, bitcoin DOES NOT have this specific amount. It's the way people evaluate bitcoin that determines the minimum cost of it.

And that's because no matter the effort, every 10 minutes, 6.25 BTC will be inserted into circulation. The demand and the miners' profit increase analogously. (ceteris paribus)

and it seems after having many conversations.. your thinking about minimum market value as if its talking about active daily price (because you used the word market)

maybe if you read the analogies you will detach your mindset from the PRICE. and take the word price out of your mind. put it on paper then throw away the paper.

read what i actualy said. its not the retail/spot price of the market. its the underlying value cost.
such as say the hidden cost of mining gold. or of the farming cost of fruit, veg, dairy

lets use dairy/veg as it seems you dont understand the gold concept
again forget the retail price customers pay at the grocery store. snap that grocery store price tag image out of your mind and burn it. please.

now think about the cost the farmer charges the retailer..
now think of the lowest price the retailer MIGHT charge if there was an over supply and little demand..

again not the active current price they charge a customer.. but the lowest charge they would dare sell at if supply was high and demand was near zero. and i mean complete bottom charge just to break even of their own cost of acquisition

they still would not give food away for free but the ultimate discount they would ever offer .. thats the underlying value... its a number all supermarkets secretly have.. but something you will mostly never see on a pricetag a customer gets to see

its not the markets daily hi-low.. its what some refer to as 'the new bottom' the the new zero.

the underlying value is a value line in a sandwich filling of all aspects that load up along with supply and demand speculation where the social drama and emotional decisions is the top piece of bread.

if your still after many conversations and many reminders and analogies only seeing the PRICE as a single number. and not the layers of what build up the price.
.. well its time you stop having conversations and start doing research.

and buy the way..
gold miners cost is not $1700.. so please.. do some research
gold miners cost is about $900.. they add on how much they want to profit.
then the smelter buys it below spot. the smelter has his own added value. and then it turns into a spot price.

gold is not sold for $900 right now.. go check google.
yet gold mining COST is not $1700 either

do you get it yet
its not about the gold market(spot) low of the day/week

its the underlying value of gold
you might see it occassionaly with the 'cash for gold' jewellers and scammy rip off merchants offering $900 to people for their jewellery as they try to buy gold cheap without having to do the hard mining. but they then sell the obtained gold for $1700 on the public market

..
now i hope you have finally got the concept.
PoS coins do not have this layer at the bottom filling of a sandwich. PoS has no cost. so PoS is purely speculative supply and demand

You are wrong because you are thinking too much in terms of gold just because the word we use for both is the same ("to mine").

But what you are forgetting is that whether gold is worth one cent or a million dollar the cost to mine it is going to be the same simply because the process is the same.
However, this is not true about bitcoin. If bitcoin is worth one cent the cost of mining it is going to be proportional to that price, and if it is one million the cost of mining it will be higher to be proportional to one million dollar price.
This is one of the reasons that sets bitcoin apart from everything else. Bitcoin value is always defined by its utility and adoption. All you can say about mining is that it contributes a little to that value by providing security.

So you can't even begin to compare bitcoin's cost of mining with gold's and them create a correlation between bitcoin's value and that cost.

comedy gold

people really cannot see behind the retail prices of good. people cant understand there is more that makes up the price.

one guy argues bitcoin has not underlying cost and the price is 100% speculative emotion
one guy says the cost is the price

both wrong

if fresh pasturised milk was sold by the farmer at the same price the supermarket sold it to the customer then no one is profiting.

sorry but cost and price are not the same thing

have a nice day though

Yes , it would be, but bitcoin cult members can't grasp that, for some reason it destroys their dogma,
kind of the same way they refuse to do anything to improve onchain transaction capacity.

Asking that question here and you get a slanted one-sided replies, PoW good, PoS bad,
but if you want the truth look at coins such as Cardano and Algorand, PoS V3 blockchains,
their performance and cost & energy efficiently exceed bitcoin by leaps and bounds.

All one has to do is look at the majority of new coins and no one bothers with outdated Proof of Waste anymore.

Biggest question is how long can a Country or State, continue to support an ever growing PoW energy drain before their power grid collapses.
China wisely banned all Bitcoin PoW Mining to protect their power grid and their people,
Texas has foolishly taken up the slack, and could suffer a fatal power grid collaspe this winter thanks to being suckered into allowing Bitcoin PoW Mining.
You can monitor Texas power grid here: http://www.ercot.com/
Within 1 - 2 years, Texas will also be forced to decide save their power grid and their people, or rolling blackouts until the total grid failure occurs all for the sake of bitcoin PoW miners.

 8)

I know what you said about underlying cost and I agree; I'm just telling you that you shouldn't compare gold or the groceries with bitcoin. When it comes to bitcoin, there's no underlying value. It's the demand that determines what the cost will be.

If the whole world adopted it, the demand would rise and so would the difficulty. If suddenly lots of us dumped it, the difficulty would drop as well. It's the difficulty of mining gold that determines its underlying value.

And the minimum market value IS the cost. I just used that term, because you keep saying “cost is not value” and that's confusing. There are lots kinds of values such as personal, market, intrinsic etc.

There's alot of fud and lies in your statements.  Do you happen to be affiliated with the state of china perhaps?   The attempt to frame bitcoin as a cult is number 1 the lie about china banning bitcoin to save power grids is 2.  if Texas has a power grid issue with the large scale miners you would think something would be said Prior to them setting up eh? lots of Private grids in Texas.  They are weird like that letting the free market decide.

Which is what bitcoin does.  Free market.   Coins like cardano are based on things that haven't even been invented yet.  Like common sense oracles(currently no such thing) how can you create a contract about a job to rake a lawn is 1 the oracle doesn't know what a lawn is.  2 what its supposed to look like or if the jobs done correctly to satisfaction.  its totally subjective to human perceptions.  thus a very limited coin imho.

The most important thing that distinguishes POW from POS is network security as well as decentralization. The POW that Bitcoin operates on is the most secure and more decentralized and the more hashing power the more secure the network and this makes it very difficult to hack, but at the same time this makes the transaction take longer and the fees are higher. .
As for POS, I think its main advantage is lower costs, which makes fees lower and transactions faster, but the network security is much lower and there is a risk of the network becoming centralized if the largest share is concentrated in the hands of a few groups.

Mmm, is this really the case? It could also be that if mining value becomes lower than BTC value, then some miners will stop mining. Miners stopping mining will reduce the protocol's difficulty, which will make mining value easier to meet.

there are many layers involved.

but there gets to a point where those remaining miners have a bigger slice and decide they want to keep that bigger slice by expanding hashrate because they can afford to upgrade to keep the bigger slice. which then plateau's/levels out a dip to a new bottom that is non zero

in both the market and mining. there is a limbo area where seller become buyers. and lack of hash competition becomes upgrading hash

Not Fud, it is Fact.  :)
https://gizmodo.com/a-chinese-province-could-ban-bitcoin-mining-to-cut-down-1846397717

Bitcoin miners fled to Texas & Kazakhstan.
https://forkast.news/headlines/kazakhstans-power-shortages-crypto-miners-scramble/

Kazakhstan does not have the energy reserves of Texas so their power grid drama will play out sooner.

Watch the news and the power grids for any country or state dumb enough to welcome the energy draining bitcoin miners over the next year,
rolling blackouts don't lie.

 8)


FYI:
If you think Bitcoin PoW energy waste is not a problem,
If you think Bitcoin lack of onchain transaction capacity is not a problem.
Your are in the Bitcoin Cult. 
https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/bitcoin-isnt-dead-but-it-is-a-cult-1183b4d2318f
https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857
https://adamcaudill.com/2018/06/21/bitcoin-is-a-cult/
https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/nobel-prize-winning-economist-calls-bitcoin-a-cult/

---

Bitcoin decentralized, Nope.
The Top 4 btc mining pool operators control over 61% of all of bitcoin hashrate, looks centralized to me.  ;)
A mere collusion of 4 people is all that is required to doublespend on the bitcoin.

While Cardano has over 670 active staking pools, now that looks decentralized and more secure.  :)

With a PoS coins any owner can join a pool and stake their coins and participate in the network security.

With PoW, you are at the mercy of the top 4 pool operating overlords, which is ok, if you like being a slave to whims of those 4 people.

PoW is slavery for the masses &  PoS is Freedom , choose according to your true nature.
 

Another newbie bagholder who thinks centralized premined shitcoins are better than bitcoin even though technology and statistics say otherwise :D

The statistics say China used 7,510 terawatt hours before banning bitcoin mining (from 2020) and is now in 2021 China is using 8,230 terawatt hours after banning bitcoin mining.
Such protection, much wow.

And less than 1% of the Cardano users, hold over 50% of the coins. Yeah, you don't have centralized problems, but you have another pimp above your head; your wealth distribution sucks.

But, no! Keep saying cliché phrases about freedom and slavery that sensitize us.

With PoW, you're at the mercy of the pool that incentivizes you the most. There are not only 4, just like there are many pools in PoS.

LOL, V3 blockchains, more like blockchain version 653

If you think everycoin not bitcoin is a shitcoin, then you are a bitcoin cult member.   8)

---

Exactly what a slave would say.
The rest of the pools are irrelevant since the top 4 mining pool overlords can 51% attack at a moment's notice.

Freemen want to take part in securing their blockchain, slaves want the rich to it.
LOL, it bothers me not that the truth might be a trigger word for you.  :)

Classic bagholder response.

Every altcoin I have ever branded as a shitcoin has been a project that I have looked into, sometimes even checked the code and when I see they lack basic principles such as decentralization, security, immutability, fair distribution (one way to know this is checking their premine), utility, innovation, etc. then they are automatically considered as a shitcoin.

Slogans and fud that you push do not make for reality.  It only attempts to warp reality.  The china fud with electricity is rather amusing attempt on your part due to the fact that china is known for lying about well....everything really and, has a 4,000 year history of doing so.  Following this logic you can easily see how you would believe everyone else's fud to push whatever coin they currently have,   I've already pointed out Cardanos critical flaw which is currently unsolvable.  Its betting on AI to catch up and solve the problem.  but I doubt that will happen.  even if it does the fact its designed to be centralized means its has built in corruption problems.

I do think bitcoins future hashrate has a pareto distro problem.  It currently does not.  Where in the future it has this problem is unknowable at this time.

Well, every cryptocurrency, besides Monero, that I've dived into was much worse than Bitcoin, so yeah I'll support Bitcoin instead. No need to label it. I'm not into a cult. There's no leader either way.

It's not as easy as you say it is. If they'll ever want to reverse a transaction, the miners will know it. It's down to the miners' decision if their attack is going to succeed or not. The miners receive headers which include the height. Thus, a pool can't attack if the miners are unaware of it.

But, again, same thing happens with Cardano. As I said, less than 1% of the ADA users, hold the majority of the coins. What makes you think it's more resistant to a 51% attack?

Cardano has no critical flaw, but if you feel it is so critical then you should crash cardano to prove your point.
Forgive me for not holding my breath.  :D

PoW future is not unknowable, it is right in everyone face, just those who for personal financial interest refuse to see it.
PoW is designed to use energy in a competition to earn more than the other competitors.

The huge design flaw and the reason PoW is a technical dead end, their is no limit to the energy required for their competition,
meaning at some point, the PoW miners are not only competing with each other , but also complete against every other person that uses energy.
Your family for example use energy to heat / cool their homes, once bitcoin miners are willing to pay more for the energy than your family,
the price of energy will increase to the point the Bitcoin miners can still afford but your family can't.
But the competition between the miners will eventually reach the point the power grids can no longer sustain them , and the power grids collapse.
Bitcoin PoW Miners are after all nothing but greed in physical form.
Endless Greed not only destroys others , but in the end it destroys the miners as well.

https://forkast.news/headlines/kazakhstans-power-shortages-crypto-miners-scramble/
I imagine the people that are suffering rolling blackouts in Kazakhstan, wish that it was fud and not their reality.

Update:
https://compassmining.io/education/kazakhstans-power-shortage-outage-bitcoin-mining/
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/kazakhstan-rations-power-after-coal-fired-plant-outages-2021-10-15/
https://eurasianet.org/kazakhstan-to-restrict-crypto-miners-amid-power-shortages
*The only real question is how long before Kazakhstan bans PoW based bitcoin to protect their people and power grid. *

PoW is a winner-take-all-let-the-rest-of-the-world-be-damned algorithm .
Which in the end there will be no winners.

PoS is a cooperative secured network, which requires user join forces to secure the network , at the same time, uses less energy per household than an xbox.

But believe what you like, you have ~2 years before the truth can no longer be hid , even by the cult mentality,
no lights, no heat, no ac, will do what the most profound logical argument can't, it will snap you out of the bitcoin cult mentality.
 8)

---

The Leader of Bitcoin is the Bitcoin Dev Team : Blockstream, that has limited the onchain transaction capacity of btc and put out the most of the repeated nonsense.
And the majority of bitcoin cultist regurgitate every false hood they proclaim.
https://www.bitcoinminershashrate.com/cbdc-exploration-organized-by-a-group-of-central-banks/

You should actually study Proof of Stake, you would learn alot.
(Go search Cardano or Algorand resources for information, it will enlighten you as to the truth.)
https://www.algorand.com/resources/blog/silvio-micali-lex-fridman-algorand-and-the-blockchain-trilemma

For one thing
Proof of Work miners have fixed % of domination equals to their hashrates.
Four PoW Pool operators have dominated over 51% for over 4 years now.

Proof of Stake domination fluctuates with every coin staked, meaning a pool that has 51% control until they stake,
dominance immediately drops after staking, no longer maintaining 51%. Some PoS coins even ban staking for a given time frame after a stake occurs.

No Proof of Stake pools can maintain 51% domination of a chain due to their staking % always in flux.

While a PoW network can be 51% attacked , basically forever,  that can never happen with PoS.
It also means the most deadly 51% freeze attack where all new blocks or transactions are blocked from the chain in PoW , that PoS is totally immune from. ;)

Nothing can be said in the defense of Proof of Stake to make it not a Perpetual Motion Machine. All of them require check points, because of possible attack vectors like Nothing at Stake attacks. Those developers are free to experiment, free to say and believe “it’s better than POW”, but a weakness like that should never ever be in Bitcoin.

Nope. Again, there's no leader in bitcoin and by that I mean an entity that affects it in such an intensive way, that if Blockstream moved to another cryptocurrency, the bitcoin community would follow likewise. This kind of leadership exists in Ethereum for example, where Vitalik decided that the community should abandon Ethereum Classic's chain and most of them did.

Bitcoin suffers the least from this type of weakness due to its significant ideology.

I will, sometime in the future, as I haven't studied a lot those two and I'm in favor of not having a biased opinion towards altcoins, but I've seen enough to have my disagreements for some.

+1

I've seen enough in this forum alone to know not everyone's a Blockstream fanboy, and enough in outside sources to know Blockstream fans aren't actually really Bitcoin users themselves.

For example, sure, I thought ther satellite service was cool at some point but no Lightning user I know (yeah I don't know many) flocked to Blockstream's iteration.

And they know full well too they don't wield the same influence Ethereum's core dev did (do). Only need to look back to 2017 to see what happens when someone or a group of powerful people believe they could convince the community of users to go one way and one way only.

It’s a narrative the troll-flat-Earthers of the community want to use to spread disinformation, and post as much of such FUD as they can to convince the newbies. Then what do they do? Sell to the newbies “the real and only true Bitcoin” BSV. Hahaha.

blockstreams only interest in bitcoin was to incept a few devs to edit bitcoin rules to allow a new transaction format, so that users can offramp away from bitcoin to use altnets..
altnets like liquid and LN(yep they exist)

the funny part is these blockstream people want to confuse the matter by saying anyone against blockstream must be an altcoin lover and should f**k off to some altcoin made by some scammer.
reality is those not liking blockstream are actually loyal to bitcoin(btc)
but not the group of devs that want to break bitcoin just to advertise highlight and garner users over to their altnets

(yea i expect the usual social drama queens to beat their chests and cry about how they have had this discussion so many times before and think they won before. yet history and post data shows they are just boring social queens that dont care about bitcoin(btc))

part of blockstreams business proposal is also to make bitcoin appear useless and userless to attempt to garner support for people to move over to these altnets due to 'faster payments' and 'cheaper payments'

the thing is though. these altnets do not have a network wide consensus of transaction audit. nor do they have a good independant store of account.

lastly although these altnets have no blockchain. no consensus, no network protocol. they want bitcoin to bend to the will of the altnets features rather then change the altnets feature to meet bitcoins.

Thank you for the information, franky1. Because Blockstream is “destroying the essence” of Bitcoin, which cryptocurrency is holding the real “Bitcoin essence”, that it deserves to be called the “real Bitcoin”? 8)

Another funny meme about Proof of Stake. Which is true, because the developers/implementors of such a network does have control over issuance, when to issue, how much to issue, and to which entities to issue.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEf-_p7VcAIT5nV?format=jpg&name=medium

there's always pros and cons between PoW and PoS and yes newest altcoin right know using Proof of Stake with reason "environmental friendly" but that was true, i have talk about this but this can be true if some bitcoin  node accept the concept of Pos maybe in future we will see PoS

Blockchain power consumption and climate impact is a big concern for many investors. The crypto industry thinks it has a solution in Proof of Stake, but how does it solve the problem and what are the tradeoffs compared to Bitcoin's Proof of Work?

Wanna know more about PoW vs PoS?
You can watch this video - https://youtu.be/Jk0XYmVzilM (https://youtu.be/Jk0XYmVzilM)

PoS has proven to be a failure

Cardano and other POS are premines and İCO,they are all centralized and Governments can crush them easily. Cardano rich list %1 owns %70 of all coins.
POW you trust decentralization, is secure with miners, in POS you trust to the wealthiest Validator.
POW is hard to ban,POS is easily censorable.
POW coins produced by hardware and electricity,POS is like FED,ecb printer machine brr...
POW is Satoshi Nakamoto choice ,POS is ico,premine and firm venture capitalists.

1. Satoshi is dead. Bitcoin mining has been centralized to just 4 mining pool operators for over 4 years.

2. All new coins are Proof of Stake, so PoW have already lost the war. Bitcoin users are just too stupid to know it yet.

3. China banned bitcoin mining easily, and so will the other countries in time. Miners can't draw more power than 20000 homes and expect to be able to hide.

4. Proof of Stake network nodes are impossible to stop and can easily move to another country within an hour.

* Have a Nice Day. *   :)
 

Despite what anyone tries telling you, Proof of Work is the superior method at the time being.  The question I always ask myself when it comes to certain types of cryptography questions is.."do the cypherpunks support it".  When it comes to Proof of Stake, from what I have seen, the vast majority of Cypherpunks do NOT support it.  (of course you can find all sorts of other good info here about it).

1. You don't know who Satoshi is to know if they are alive or not. And there are a dozen mining pools but it doesn't matter because pools don't own hashrate the miners do and there are far more miners than pools and they are spread around the globe which makes it decentralized.

2. It is obvious that nobody including the owners of the shitcoin is going to spend money on mining shitcoins so new coins choose something that is weaker and can be sustained without spending money by the centralized authority.

3. They are free to try. For every country that has banned bitcoin mining there are 50 other countries that have accepted bitcoin mining.

4. Any government or law enforcement can easily kick down the door of the Proof of Shitcoin networks and seize all their funds and gain full control of that shitcoin network.

1. You don't know what I know.  :)  
 He & She have been dead for over 3 years now.

2. LOL, When Ethereum & Cardano PoS networks Marketcap exceeds bitcoin proof of waste, the look on your face is going to be hilarious.  :D

3. Not working as well as you think. At some point , No country will allow bitcoin mining, because their energy waste threatens the entire power grid.
https://decrypt.co/87293/bitcoin-mining-kazakhstan-power-china-hash-rate-price


4. I can see you know nothing about PoS , if you think kicking down a door makes that big of a difference.
    Funny how you ignore that only 4 guys in bitcoin have doors that are worth kicking down.  :P

* PoS guys can hide their nodes , where you will never find their door, Proof of waste guys doors stick out like an energy wasting flare.*

If a PoS guy were so inclined , he could run his node on a laptop from a Van moving 24 hours a day, hiding his IP and using a cell network, and you never find him.
Your PoW losers asic miners can't do that.  8)

Don't feed the trolls!

Proof, proof, proof, proof.

This shows that you don't get it. And what will happen in a hypothetical scenario those two exceed the market cap of bitcoin? Does that mean they've succeeded? Was that it? Does it mean bitcoin has failed as a peer-to-peer currency?

However, I find it highly unlikely for both of them to ever exceed it.

Speculation & FUD.

Try News instead of fud.   ;)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-13/bitcoin-miners-fleeing-china-could-overload-siberia-s-power-grid

https://protos.com/bitcoin-miners-overload-kazakhstans-electricity-grid-forcing-rations/

  8)

But, that's FUD. News that contain fear, uncertainty and doubt.

So 2014 ish. Forum was flooded with the junk.

Newbies, a network under POS is a permissioned system. It’s NOT ideal for a “money”. The consensus mechanism depends on people holding the token, but how can they get some of the tokens? They need to buy/get it from a third party. It’s not a trustless, and permissionless way to distribute the currency.

This leaves out of the equation the fact that all kinds of technologies can and will improve, the power grids included. I have no idea whether Siberia a decent reference point for strong power grids that could truly suffer from overload. In fact, one day rising Bitcoin prices could even be an incentive for countries to improve their infrastructure.

Oh and by the way:
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/research%3A-bitcoin-consumes-less-than-half-the-energy-of-the-banking-or-gold-industries

Let me know when a Country bans banking because the bank threaten the destruction of it's power grid,
then you have an argument, until then you are just living in a delusion of a bitcoin cultist fantasy.  :)

How long must the protocol run for Bitcoin to prove itself as a multi-generational protocol for a “money”? No entity has stopped it, after the China FUD, the China Ban, the other FUDs/bans, all the false narratives. OR has dethroned it from being the cryptocurrency with the highest market value.

For those of you still too dense to realize that Proof of Waste is a Dead Tech.

https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/iceland-energy-crisis-limits-power-heavy-users-including-bitcoin-miners


Let the bitcoin cultist cries of FUD begin.  8)

FYI:
Funny how Iceland had no problems maintaining power before the bitcoin miners started sucking them dry.  ;)

On a more serious note :
Current day time temps in parts of iceland are as low as 7 degree Fahrenheit,
The Utility has to keep power to the people so they don't die from the cold.
Bitcoin PoW is just a waste of resources to the people of iceland.


FYI2:
https://www.icelandreview.com/news/icelanders-used-most-electricity-per-capita-in-2017/

It doesn’t change anything. Hahaha. Because some country wants to ban mining, suddenly Bitcoin mining is wasteful? What happened to Sybil Protection Mechanism? What happened to Byzantine Fault Tolerance? Isn’t issuance of the currency from the protocol itself important anymore?

they are not cutting current mining contracts. they are instead not accepting NEW mining companies moving in

this is because there was a mass migration of mining companies from asia to iceland.
dont blame the current icelandic miners. blame the asian miners wanting to move to iceland.

what you also find is that iceland dont just have power plants with only just enough capacity for today. they know it takes years/decades to build a power plant so their power plants are designed to have MORE capacity than the consumption requirements of the time of todays design. this is called a buffer/excess.

utility companies like having their plants at full capacity as that = full income. meaning they can get more profit to then invest in more expansion.

for years now big mining farms have been buying up the buffer/excess outside of the residential/industry production quota. thus not harming the residential/industrial supply, not causing brownouts.
what is happening more recently is the migration of many farms from china causing too much future demand that would exceed the FUTURE buffer/excess. and so they put a stop to FUTURE contracts of not yet made farms, whilst still honouring the current contracts of already set up farms.

the current settled farms will continue to mine and will continue to profit the utility company while the utility company then has more time to expand and build more power plants.

Get used to it because the forum will be increasingly flooded with topics like this from now on because a popular shitcoin with 72 million premine is trying to convince the plebs into thinking their switch from PoW to PoS is actually a good move that is going to save their shitcoin.

In your cult confusion, no one is talking about any other coin , only Shitcoins that Use Outdated Environmentally Harmful Proof of Waste Technology like Bitcoin.

Proof of Waste Technology is what is being banned.

https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2021/12/10/iceland-limits-electricity-crypto-mining/


Keep thinking Proof of Waste is not a problem.  :D

FYI:
Meanwhile in Texas :  8)
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2021/12/05/as-the-rest-of-texas-frets-about-power-outages-denton-adds-bitcoin-mining-to-the-grid/

I heard electricity usage from Christmas lights surges around this time of the year. I believe the anti-Christmas groups supported by anti-Christmas entities should start spreading disinformation, and social-engineering attacks before it’s too late to stop Santa.

Found a great article that explains why proof of stake isn't a consensus mechanism, but a cunning way for an electronic cash system to operate: Proof of stake is a scam and the people promoting it are scammers (https://yanmaani.github.io/proof-of-stake-is-a-scam-and-the-people-promoting-it-are-scammers/).

I hadn't thought of this “Nothing at Stake problem” he speaks of. In proof of work, there's a punishment to those who misbehave, but not in proof of stake. @TangentC, wanna give this a read and tell us where he's wrong?

Nice one the same applies to the brocken XRP

Nothing at Stake was a falsehood imagined by Greg Maxwell years ago.
Often repeated by those that have little understanding of how things really work.

Everyone that has researched proof of stake, knows N@S is nothing more than propaganda bullshit.
Which is why you see all the new coins ignore Proof of waste and use Proof of Stake.

Falsehoods in N@S are many and most of the time, different people even represent it in different ways,
the only consistent fact is all N@S believers are wrong.  :)

In the years , since the N@S myth was created , has Proof of Stake been decimated by it, Nope, because it is an lie.
In the years, since people have been warning that Proof of Work would be banned due to it waste,
China (formerly bitcoin's largest hash rate miner) has banned it and multiple other countries are talking about following suit.

So from the above you can see the reality is the banning of PoW is happening , and the N@S myth is nothing more than a lie for the unintelligent btc cult followers.  

 8)

---

Actually No,
The Ripple (XRP) network does not run with a proof-of-work (PoW) system or a proof-of-stake (PoS) system.
Instead, transactions rely on a consensus protocol in order to validate account balances and transactions on the system.

I know that, that junk is so good that they managed to permanently loose some of a nuke proof "blockchain", can not happen with bitcoin.
Even worse than PoS.

Actually if all of the bitcoin nodes keep doing that pruned node nonsense instead of running full nodes that hold all of the transactions from the Genesis block,
losing a large part of the bitcoin blockchain becomes a real issue in bitcoin's future.  :)

In PoS , Users have financial incentive to be full nodes, Thanks to Staking the Coins.  ;)
In PoW, their is no financial incentive to be a full node. IE: a major flaw in BTC as the blockchain grows.

In my opinion, @franky1, describing the cost of mining bitcoin, which is supposedly equal to about $ 10,000, confused the cost of production of one bitcoin with its price. The high cost of a product is its negative quality. In addition, it is precisely against such high costs for its production that Swedish regulators have recently come out, having turned to the countries of the European Union with a proposal to prohibit the mining of energy-consuming cryptocurrency with the PoW algorithm as part of the fight against global climate change. It is quite possible that such a proposal will be supported by other states.

Lol the climate change scam again where prominet  (https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/11/02/ursula-von-der-leyen-jet/)  politicians fly 50km instead using a car or heaven forbid a bus for common people.
Has gold mining also been discussed or is it essential for survival to wear jewelry?
What about a quatzillion banks have heating and aircon on all year round.
I guess without car racing we have nothing to eat tomorrow.
And transporting bottled water from China to Europe or US must be done just so you have variate in supermarket.
Is it needed to fill the page with that political nonsens, or is it your entirely
Bitcoin halves every 4 years so a lot of miners have to shut down, uneconomic.

I don't think this needs to be either/or. PoS has advantages over PoW, and energy savings are one example of this. Also, PoW as we see with bitcoin encourages the centralization of mining, since individuals can no longer mine for profit. In some ways, PoS is thus superior in its decentralization. However, I am a supporter and holder of bitcoin, and I believe it will remain the best form of digital gold for the foreseeable future.

What's N@S?

China's government haven't yet banned themselves. Do you seriously believe PoW will be forbidden by every location on Earth? It seems unrealistic, especially when the majority of the hash rate comes from renewable sources of energy.

At first, you say that XRP does not run with PoW neither with PoS. Afterwards, you use an “instead” and state that they rely on a consensus protocol. May I conclude you don't think PoW and PoS are consensus protocols?

And the storage becomes cheaper to possess... Besides, why should there be a financial incentive to run a full node? Running a full node is mostly a personal service and doesn't contribute to the network much.

ShortHand that has been used for years
N@S = Nothing at Stake

PoW will have to be banned by every country , no country has the resources to power 2 earths worth of energy drain.
Which is the problem with Geometric grow in energy waste and why PoW is doomed to be banned

XRP does not use PoW or PoS. Don't use your imagination to imply I said anything else.  

Because by having a financial incentive to run a full node, you guarantee that every transaction since the genesis block is attainable by anyone.
You seriously don't understand the value of Full Nodes.  I suggest you research them on your own, so you make more informed statements in the future.

Have you checked the carbon footprint of the current financial system (https://www.coindesk.com/whats-the-carbon-footprint-of-fiat-money)? You keep trying to convince us that PoW is so futile, but fail due to lack of valid arguments. You also choose to support PoS by degrading PoW. And I repeat:  It has a strong reliance on renewable sources in contrast with almost everything else. That's due to the incentive of the miners to get away their expenses.

In other words, the system incentivizes you to not harm the environment for the common good.

But, why should there be a financial reward for this? Isn't your business to want or not want to confirm you have the correct chain; to verify the transactions? The reward for your contribution is the privacy you gain. Why should you make others' fortune less scarce for this (mainly) personal procedure?

You know drinking the btc cultist kool-aid is making you a nutjob.  :-*

Keep ignoring the countries that ban Proof of Waste, it still will occur,
be sure and post when any country bans a Bank for threatening their power grid, until then realize your btc cult think is irrelevant in this reality.  :)

Why should miners make all of the money in Proof of Waste, when only the rich can be miners.
In Proof of Stake , everyone that participates in staking can secure and profit from the network.
In your Proof of Waste only rich elites that can afford muti-million $$$$ warehouses that waste energy with zero increase in btc performance or security,
if you prefer that , go ahead and slap a slave sticker on your back and wander the streets begging a rich person to be your master.  :P

 

i think i get it

tangentc is just jealous that some people work and put effort in and get rewarded for those efforts, and he just cant cope with not getting paid for doing nothing, so wants to fight and argue that bitcoin should change and reward leachers that dont offer anything to bitcoins security.

what he does not realise is in proof of stake, there is still only a set number of blocks made a day and only a set amount of reward per block. if a PoS coin actually became useful to a wide userbase, where the coin attained value. those 'stakes' no longer allow everyone to get paid.
(too many people fighting over limited slices of pie)

instead only a few hundred 'stakes' out of millions would get paid a day.
where those few hundred 'stakes' would be the ones with the highest value(rich/elite) stake in play.

leaving millions of average joe without a chance... basically the exchanges, with their cold store hoard would control the PoS coin network

thus creating the same paradigm tangentc cries about when he cries about the elitism of miners.

what he does not realise is that the elitism is not to do with asics or electric. its due to the popularity of the coin by having so many people wanting some, but so little opportunity to get some via the block creation process, whether it be pow or pos.

so far pos coins are crap coins so dont have much of a community to display this fight over the slices of pie. although some coins are showing that exchanges are doing alot of the block creation process and many small holders never get a chance.

if bitcoin did change to PoS, the elitism would not disappear. but what would disappear is bitcoins value.
after all if everyone could mine gold in their back yard for $1 using a spoon and a coffee filter, everyone would sell it for $2 to 2x profit. gold would not be worth over $1k.

bitcoins value is based on the acquisition costs. no one wants to sell at a loss.
pos coins have no 'cost' so anyone getting it would sell at any price. especially if everyone was able to get it for free.

but hey, tangentc does not care about value. nor security which would cost an attacker billions to fight to break the security. all he cares about is trying to get his hands on some free pie, no matter the consequence

PoW is supposed to create equal. People in favor of the coin could contribute computation to get rewarded. PoS works by people staking their coin, no need to buy hardware for mining.
Both of them had pros and cons, but in terms of energy consumption, POS is more environment friendly.

When someone tries to have a dialogue with you, don't discourage them this way.

So is this all you have to say? Come on man, seriously.

A country? To ban a bank? Nah. Besides, banks are by nature, PoS. When did any government or bank announce their appreciation towards bitcoin during the last 13 years? And yet, it's #1. So, I guess the throng's opinion matters too.

I know people, more or less rich than I am who don't have money to stake the required amount and the yield return isn't that profitable at all. They mine bitcoin.

That's false. As I said, not every person has the required amount of money to stake. By the same reasoning, everyone can participate in mining too.

Says a supporter of a PoS cryptocurrency in which the 1% of its users own the majority of the coins. Yeah, that's not hierarchy at all. What to do? That's life.

That's complex.

And is that why he supports PoS?  :P

No Franky, you don't get it at all.

Your lack of research on the capabilities of Proof of Stake is showing.
1.  Proof of Stake coins transaction fees can be burned, thus as coin transactions increase, this will act as a way to lower the total # of coins.

* Note another one of PoW failings, is the day when no new PoW coins are created , transaction fees of PoW coins have to skyrocket to offset the lost rewards*
Just another reason why PoS is superior to PoW in the long run.

If you have not been an early adopter of Proof of Waste bitcoin, do you really think, you be pushing a product that wastes more energy than a country with no increase in performance or security. I include security, because the same 4 mining pool operators (Bitcoin weakest link) are all that is stopping a 51% attack no matter what bitcoin energy waste.
I think you be more honest that that, if you did not personally have a large financial skin in the game on the PoW bitcoin side.  ;)

---

 :D  
Tell all of the people too poor to own an ASIC warehouse, how they can make a profit mining bitcoin, and go into compete details so they can get as rich as Franky1.
Go ahead show them how many coins they can mine, but you might want to mention that the odds are they will lose money mining instead of earn, but dazzle away and create a new upper class elite, with the supposed mining btc and get rich shenanigans.  
* Not holding my breath. *

Not complex , accurate , you want rich elites to earn the rewards and the transaction fees and determine what transactions are included in the blockchain with no input from you whatsoever, sounds like a slave to me.

---

The current Proof of Waste system is doomed to failure, as no country can handle a continued geometric increase in energy waste on a biyearly basis.
So all countries will eventually ban bitcoin PoW mining,
and what happens next.....
Then finally BTC lack of development team, claims to have found a solution to the Proof of Waste Dilemma.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsoft-patent-application-crypto-mining-brain-waves

And that boys and girls is their plan to enslave your children's children for the next 10000 years.

Proof of Stake is the only shield against it.
Make your Choice , Freedom or Slavery, because the time of choice is almost here.  8)

Updated Future Defs:
PoW = Prisoners of Work
PoS = People of Sovereignty

This has nothing to do with the mechanism, but with the monetary policy. Take, for instance, Monero. It will have a steady inflation after a while.

Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.

How many times do I have to say this? Why don't you respond to it? Besides, I repeat:  The mining pools don't own the hash rate, it's the miners. The miners mine the block header, they're responsible for not allowing the pool to accomplish a 51% attack.

It increases in security. The performance shouldn't change.

Vice versa: Can't it be your pocket talking about PoS? Supposedly, we speak objectively for each side.

No, it wasn't accurate. It was pure irony and revealed a little bit of hate against bitcoiners.

You keep speaking for PoW, but haven't mention the downsides of your mechanism. Again, why can't this happen in PoS? Why aren't there elites?

Cute.

just because i talk generally about what most crap coins do. and you hav in mind your favourite crap coin that does something else but without realising im not psychic to know which crap coin you are favouring this week. does not mean i have not done my research. it just means i am not talking about your specific crap coin you have secretly in mind.

the transaction fee "burn" of your crapcoin is not a loss to miners. its a loss to people making transactions (normal users)
those staking coins to mine dont lose anything. its like a reserve. they vault their coin. sign a block, if they get to be the main signer they get the fresh mint coin, and even more then that they can take their stake out and keep that too.
generally speaking. though some crap coins dont just burn, but give the tx fees of all users to the miner that one as a bonus ontop of reward.

by having a PoS that burns users coins when they transact. the miner is getting minted coin. keeps his stake safe and now the network has less coin for users, making that miners coin more valued due to scarcity. without any cost to the miner.

so i can see why you love the idea of free money mining.. i see why you want effortless/workless/ lazy mining too.

but here is the thing. if a crap coin was to become popular. there would be less slices of the reward pie to share between miners. as there are only so many blocks and so many rewards to share between. so if a really popular crap coin had 1million miners, but was only making 200 blocks a day of 10 coins a block.. then 1million miners wont be elegantly split a daily slice of 0.002 each, instead the addresses with the most hoard will get most blocks meaning there will be some getting 10coins a block for multiple blocks. and hundreds of thousands of people getting nothing.

this then leads to those hundreds of thousands trying to pool their funds into an exchange wallet cold store and hope when the exchange wins a block due to large cold store hoard, the exchange will split the reward equally.

well i have not seen many, if any exchanges paying 'dividends', 'interest', rewards to its users just for letting an exchange hold their coin.. well not unless they are actually a ponzi..
so just dont expect to get free coin if your crap coin you favour was to become popular.
you are still going to end up with the same elitist problem you think bitcoin suffers from

and also, bad security, centralising funds. and crap value based on 100% speculation and not any real underlying cost

sorry but bitcoin has real value due to real cost. you know real work. real effort. and better security.
its alot easier to perform a chain re-org on a PoS coin than on bitcoin. the only reason you dont see it happen much on crap coins. is that they are crap and its just not even worth it.
thats PoS coins only advantage. staying so crap that no one wants to bother playing or messing with it

I can see the btc cultism is too thick for any reality to sink in.

So I shall leave you , to circle jerk yourselves in the pretense that useless geometrically growing energy waste is sustainable and anything not of your cult is crap.


 :D


FYI:
Just like your energy wasting bitcoin, your clueless btc cult wastes too much of another valuable resource my time.
So as the countries ban bitcoin, I shall now ban you from wasting my time with your cult drivel.

Good Day.
 8)

ok well you go ride your manual bicycle from the 1800's and avoid any fuel/electric means of transport.

if you want to fear businesses that pay for electric to allow utility companies to upgrade power plants, you go stay away from anything electrical. work by candlelight instead.

you do realise when electricity is produced. its supposed to be used. if its not used. then it is a waste. electricity is not supposed to be produced and then put into a box and stored in a trophy cupboard.

i bet your the guy that hates the idea of electric cars. wasting electric just to get people to between work and home.
you sound like the kind of guy that wants free social security money for staying at home doing nothing.

..
maybe you simply think that bitcoin is not efficient because your still stuck in the mindset of CPU mining and thinking that bitcoin is mined using CPU's where the quadrillions of hashes is from quadrillion inefficient 2012 CPU's. not realising its only 1.6million ASIC's which each use the same power as a normal house.

so while having the wrong impression that bitcoin mining is competing against 1.3 billion population of china's need for electric. its actually more like 0.2% of that same population, thus not really even on the same demand scale as what chinese people use in their daily lives.

but hey. when all chinese(1.3billion) all have 2 electric cars per household. maybe that should be the time you book yourself into a mental health ward before you stroke out in a panic attack. or worse, have a mental breakdown at home, and when rescued by emergency services they see your a hoarder, where your house is full of batteries, and your sat in the corner muttering "must save electric, must store it, must keep it, dont take my electric hoard"

meanwhile. the rest of us will get on with our lives and use electricity. and pay for it to allow power plants to get upgraded.. as thats its purpose. to use electricity.

LOL!

Good riddance to bad luggage. I guess my valid arguments shut your mouth? Anyway, please don't come back after a month or two, 'cause you trolls like doing this once in a while. If you want to leave this toxic-cult-looking place make it official, don't return as a know-it-all deliverer who refuses to constructively counterargue.

The same narrative repeated again. “Bitcoin POW is wasteful”, but in fact, POW the most ground-breaking part of the protocol. Cypherpunks before Bitcoin have tried to develop a censorship-resistant, decentralized currency. All failed because they lacked one elementary component = POW.