PoW vs PoS

[mindrust]

True, it's actually one of the solutions used to make energy more friendly, making it a POS. but it will lose the hallmark of bitcoin itself. Bitcoin is already famous for the POW system, where there are hundreds of mining rigs from one office to mine it, it will be very difficult to change that system, miners will be disappointed.

They were disappointed with ETH too and yet that didn't stop ETH from making a new ATH. Miners are just paid slaves of the network. If people approve the changes, miners will have to accept it. Otherwise they'll mine an empty chain just like they are doing with bcash. Remember how they all didn't want segwit and they approved it anyway.

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[bitgolden]

if POS consumes less energy, then wouldn't it be a good idea for Bitcoin to transition to a POS algorithm?

In my understanding Mr.Satoshi Nakamotto developed only POW and all other algorithms are derived version of Satoshi's idea and not proven against mass transactions and double spending. So, I guess that we cannot expect bitcoin to be adopting a new algorithm for any reasons. Personally I have good opinion on POS algorithm as all the money required for mining are not moving away from the ecosystem but being spent within ecosystem which will definitely get more value for a coin.

We cannot underestimate Mr.Satoshi Nakamotto's works hence at first hand I guess we cannot dream about getting into POS algorithm for simple reasons. Probably bitcoin may opt for hybrid mining thing like both POW and POS and the block rewards to be split to both kind of miners in extreme conditions like POW needs some modifications.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The good thing about PoS coins is that you can earn income from them, which isn't the case with bitcoin.

How's that? It's not immediate, but you do earn bitcoins if you already have bitcoins, if you think about it. If those owned bitcoins allow you to purchase mining equipment and you're willing to pay electricity for those ASICs, then you've essentially created new bitcoins by owning bitcoins.

In PoS, one creates coins just because they prove they own coins. But, isn't the same thing with bitcoin, after all? Isn't computational power translated into cost which can be paid with bitcoins?

Many, biasedly, skip this.

bitcoin has a real cost of creation via the mining hardware. much like golds underlying cost is in gold mining costs

I've had this discussion with you in the past and you repeat this very mistake. The cost DOES NOT mean the minimum market value in bitcoin and thus, it is wrong to compare it with gold. Gold costs a specific amount of monetary units to be extracted from the ground and the buyer has to pay those at least so that it can be profitable for the seller. But, bitcoin DOES NOT have this specific amount. It's the way people evaluate bitcoin that determines the minimum cost of it.

And that's because no matter the effort, every 10 minutes, 6.25 BTC will be inserted into circulation. The demand and the miners' profit increase analogously. (ceteris paribus)

[franky1]

bitcoin has a real cost of creation via the mining hardware. much like golds underlying cost is in gold mining costs

I've had this discussion with you in the past and you repeat this very mistake. The cost DOES NOT mean the minimum market value in bitcoin and thus,

and it seems after having many conversations.. your thinking about minimum market value as if its talking about active daily price (because you used the word market)

maybe if you read the analogies you will detach your mindset from the PRICE. and take the word price out of your mind. put it on paper then throw away the paper.

read what i actualy said. its not the retail/spot price of the market. its the underlying value cost.
such as say the hidden cost of mining gold. or of the farming cost of fruit, veg, dairy

lets use dairy/veg as it seems you dont understand the gold concept
again forget the retail price customers pay at the grocery store. snap that grocery store price tag image out of your mind and burn it. please.

now think about the cost the farmer charges the retailer..
now think of the lowest price the retailer MIGHT charge if there was an over supply and little demand..

again not the active current price they charge a customer.. but the lowest charge they would dare sell at if supply was high and demand was near zero. and i mean complete bottom charge just to break even of their own cost of acquisition

they still would not give food away for free but the ultimate discount they would ever offer .. thats the underlying value... its a number all supermarkets secretly have.. but something you will mostly never see on a pricetag a customer gets to see

its not the markets daily hi-low.. its what some refer to as 'the new bottom' the the new zero.

the underlying value is a value line in a sandwich filling of all aspects that load up along with supply and demand speculation where the social drama and emotional decisions is the top piece of bread.

if your still after many conversations and many reminders and analogies only seeing the PRICE as a single number. and not the layers of what build up the price.
.. well its time you stop having conversations and start doing research.

and buy the way..
gold miners cost is not $1700.. so please.. do some research
gold miners cost is about $900.. they add on how much they want to profit.
then the smelter buys it below spot. the smelter has his own added value. and then it turns into a spot price.

gold is not sold for $900 right now.. go check google.
yet gold mining COST is not $1700 either

do you get it yet
its not about the gold market(spot) low of the day/week

its the underlying value of gold
you might see it occassionaly with the 'cash for gold' jewellers and scammy rip off merchants offering $900 to people for their jewellery as they try to buy gold cheap without having to do the hard mining. but they then sell the obtained gold for $1700 on the public market

..
now i hope you have finally got the concept.
PoS coins do not have this layer at the bottom filling of a sandwich. PoS has no cost. so PoS is purely speculative supply and demand

[pooya87]

~

You are wrong because you are thinking too much in terms of gold just because the word we use for both is the same ("to mine").

But what you are forgetting is that whether gold is worth one cent or a million dollar the cost to mine it is going to be the same simply because the process is the same.
However, this is not true about bitcoin. If bitcoin is worth one cent the cost of mining it is going to be proportional to that price, and if it is one million the cost of mining it will be higher to be proportional to one million dollar price.
This is one of the reasons that sets bitcoin apart from everything else. Bitcoin value is always defined by its utility and adoption. All you can say about mining is that it contributes a little to that value by providing security.

So you can't even begin to compare bitcoin's cost of mining with gold's and them create a correlation between bitcoin's value and that cost.

[franky1]

comedy gold

people really cannot see behind the retail prices of good. people cant understand there is more that makes up the price.

one guy argues bitcoin has not underlying cost and the price is 100% speculative emotion
one guy says the cost is the price

both wrong

if fresh pasturised milk was sold by the farmer at the same price the supermarket sold it to the customer then no one is profiting.

sorry but cost and price are not the same thing

have a nice day though

[TangentC]

I know Bitcoin is running on a proof of work consensus algorithm. Recently I discovered proof of stake by reading up a bit on Cardano and Ethereum's 2.0 plans.

What is the difference between these two, how does POS reduce the energy required to mine a block transaction and are either of these more secure than the other? Basically what are the pros and cons of each.

Also if POS consumes less energy, then wouldn't it be a good idea for Bitcoin to transition to a POS algorithm?

Yes , it would be, but bitcoin cult members can't grasp that, for some reason it destroys their dogma,
kind of the same way they refuse to do anything to improve onchain transaction capacity.

Asking that question here and you get a slanted one-sided replies, PoW good, PoS bad,
but if you want the truth look at coins such as Cardano and Algorand, PoS V3 blockchains,
their performance and cost & energy efficiently exceed bitcoin by leaps and bounds.

All one has to do is look at the majority of new coins and no one bothers with outdated Proof of Waste anymore.

Biggest question is how long can a Country or State, continue to support an ever growing PoW energy drain before their power grid collapses.
China wisely banned all Bitcoin PoW Mining to protect their power grid and their people,
Texas has foolishly taken up the slack, and could suffer a fatal power grid collaspe this winter thanks to being suckered into allowing Bitcoin PoW Mining.
You can monitor Texas power grid here: http://www.ercot.com/
Within 1 - 2 years, Texas will also be forced to decide save their power grid and their people, or rolling blackouts until the total grid failure occurs all for the sake of bitcoin PoW miners.

 

[BlackHatCoiner]

read what i actualy said. its not the retail/spot price of the market. its the underlying value cost.

I know what you said about underlying cost and I agree; I'm just telling you that you shouldn't compare gold or the groceries with bitcoin. When it comes to bitcoin, there's no underlying value. It's the demand that determines what the cost will be.

If the whole world adopted it, the demand would rise and so would the difficulty. If suddenly lots of us dumped it, the difficulty would drop as well. It's the difficulty of mining gold that determines its underlying value.

And the minimum market value IS the cost. I just used that term, because you keep saying “cost is not value” and that's confusing. There are lots kinds of values such as personal, market, intrinsic etc.

[Nhazwrath]

I know Bitcoin is running on a proof of work consensus algorithm. Recently I discovered proof of stake by reading up a bit on Cardano and Ethereum's 2.0 plans.

What is the difference between these two, how does POS reduce the energy required to mine a block transaction and are either of these more secure than the other? Basically what are the pros and cons of each.

Also if POS consumes less energy, then wouldn't it be a good idea for Bitcoin to transition to a POS algorithm?

Yes , it would be, but bitcoin cult members can't grasp that, for some reason it destroys their dogma,
kind of the same way they refuse to do anything to improve onchain transaction capacity.

Asking that question here and you get a slanted one-sided replies, PoW good, PoS bad,
but if you want the truth look at coins such as Cardano and Algorand, PoS V3 blockchains,
their performance and cost & energy efficiently exceed bitcoin by leaps and bounds.

All one has to do is look at the majority of new coins and no one bothers with outdated Proof of Waste anymore.

Biggest question is how long can a Country or State, continue to support an ever growing PoW energy drain before their power grid collapses.
China wisely banned all Bitcoin PoW Mining to protect their power grid and their people,
Texas has foolishly taken up the slack, and could suffer a fatal power grid collaspe this winter thanks to being suckered into allowing Bitcoin PoW Mining.
You can monitor Texas power grid here: http://www.ercot.com/
Within 1 - 2 years, Texas will also be forced to decide save their power grid and their people, or rolling blackouts until the total grid failure occurs all for the sake of bitcoin PoW miners.

 

There's alot of fud and lies in your statements.  Do you happen to be affiliated with the state of china perhaps?   The attempt to frame bitcoin as a cult is number 1 the lie about china banning bitcoin to save power grids is 2.  if Texas has a power grid issue with the large scale miners you would think something would be said Prior to them setting up eh? lots of Private grids in Texas.  They are weird like that letting the free market decide.

Which is what bitcoin does.  Free market.   Coins like cardano are based on things that haven't even been invented yet.  Like common sense oracles(currently no such thing) how can you create a contract about a job to rake a lawn is 1 the oracle doesn't know what a lawn is.  2 what its supposed to look like or if the jobs done correctly to satisfaction.  its totally subjective to human perceptions.  thus a very limited coin imho.

[yhiaali3]

The most important thing that distinguishes POW from POS is network security as well as decentralization. The POW that Bitcoin operates on is the most secure and more decentralized and the more hashing power the more secure the network and this makes it very difficult to hack, but at the same time this makes the transaction take longer and the fees are higher. .
As for POS, I think its main advantage is lower costs, which makes fees lower and transactions faster, but the network security is much lower and there is a risk of the network becoming centralized if the largest share is concentrated in the hands of a few groups.

[superbotolo]

What you have just explained has made me wonder about something. Do you think that the rise in electricity prices that is happening in many parts of the world, especially where it is being mined the most now like the US, is going to affect the price of Bitcoin? It should, I'd say, even though we are in a bull market I guess it is another factor that will push the price up.

put it this way. chinese mining at say 140exa hash had a $20k underlying value.. meaning no one dares sell below $20k unless foolishly making a bug in their trade bot.

now majority of mining maybe outside of china. the lowest cost value is already higher. so say america is majority the average underlying value is about $37k

meaning thats the new 'bottom' and toughest resistance to break that no one will dare sell below
so its not just hash power but also yes electrical price. slowly making the min price ever to be seen again be on a rise. supporting the price from ever going below a certain value.
the only time this bottom value support can decline is if hashrate declines

Mmm, is this really the case? It could also be that if mining value becomes lower than BTC value, then some miners will stop mining. Miners stopping mining will reduce the protocol's difficulty, which will make mining value easier to meet.

[franky1]

Mmm, is this really the case? It could also be that if mining value becomes lower than BTC value, then some miners will stop mining. Miners stopping mining will reduce the protocol's difficulty, which will make mining value easier to meet.

there are many layers involved.

but there gets to a point where those remaining miners have a bigger slice and decide they want to keep that bigger slice by expanding hashrate because they can afford to upgrade to keep the bigger slice. which then plateau's/levels out a dip to a new bottom that is non zero

in both the market and mining. there is a limbo area where seller become buyers. and lack of hash competition becomes upgrading hash

[TangentC]

I know Bitcoin is running on a proof of work consensus algorithm. Recently I discovered proof of stake by reading up a bit on Cardano and Ethereum's 2.0 plans.

What is the difference between these two, how does POS reduce the energy required to mine a block transaction and are either of these more secure than the other? Basically what are the pros and cons of each.

Also if POS consumes less energy, then wouldn't it be a good idea for Bitcoin to transition to a POS algorithm?

Yes , it would be, but bitcoin cult members can't grasp that, for some reason it destroys their dogma,
kind of the same way they refuse to do anything to improve onchain transaction capacity.

Asking that question here and you get a slanted one-sided replies, PoW good, PoS bad,
but if you want the truth look at coins such as Cardano and Algorand, PoS V3 blockchains,
their performance and cost & energy efficiently exceed bitcoin by leaps and bounds.

All one has to do is look at the majority of new coins and no one bothers with outdated Proof of Waste anymore.

Biggest question is how long can a Country or State, continue to support an ever growing PoW energy drain before their power grid collapses.
China wisely banned all Bitcoin PoW Mining to protect their power grid and their people,
Texas has foolishly taken up the slack, and could suffer a fatal power grid collaspe this winter thanks to being suckered into allowing Bitcoin PoW Mining.
You can monitor Texas power grid here: http://www.ercot.com/
Within 1 - 2 years, Texas will also be forced to decide save their power grid and their people, or rolling blackouts until the total grid failure occurs all for the sake of bitcoin PoW miners.

 

There's alot of fud and lies in your statements.  Do you happen to be affiliated with the state of china perhaps?   The attempt to frame bitcoin as a cult is number 1 the lie about china banning bitcoin to save power grids is 2.  if Texas has a power grid issue with the large scale miners you would think something would be said Prior to them setting up eh? lots of Private grids in Texas.  They are weird like that letting the free market decide.

Not Fud, it is Fact.  
https://gizmodo.com/a-chinese-province-could-ban-bitcoin-mining-to-cut-down-1846397717

Over the past decade,
bitcoin has put increasing stress on the largely coal-powered grid of China’s Inner Mongolia.
Now, the province is clamping down.
Late last week, province officials announced plans to ban all new bitcoin and other cryptocurrency mining ventures and quickly phase out existing activity in order to
reduce electricity consumption.

Bitcoin miners fled to Texas & Kazakhstan.
https://forkast.news/headlines/kazakhstans-power-shortages-crypto-miners-scramble/

Kazakhstan — one of the popular destinations for Chinese crypto miners as they look for more regulation-friendly shores
— continues to face power shortages, with its national grid operator last week rationing power after some failures occurred in a few power units.

the power consumption demand in some parts of Kazakhstan has overrun the power generation volume
“due to the sharp increase in consumption by the digital mining consumers (over 1,000 MW) and higher number of emergencies at power plants.”

Kazakhstan does not have the energy reserves of Texas so their power grid drama will play out sooner.

Watch the news and the power grids for any country or state dumb enough to welcome the energy draining bitcoin miners over the next year,
rolling blackouts don't lie.

 


FYI:
If you think Bitcoin PoW energy waste is not a problem,
If you think Bitcoin lack of onchain transaction capacity is not a problem.
Your are in the Bitcoin Cult. 
https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/bitcoin-isnt-dead-but-it-is-a-cult-1183b4d2318f
https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857
https://adamcaudill.com/2018/06/21/bitcoin-is-a-cult/
https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/nobel-prize-winning-economist-calls-bitcoin-a-cult/

The most important thing that distinguishes POW from POS is network security as well as decentralization. The POW that Bitcoin operates on is the most secure and more decentralized and the more hashing power the more secure the network and this makes it very difficult to hack, but at the same time this makes the transaction take longer and the fees are higher. .
As for POS, I think its main advantage is lower costs, which makes fees lower and transactions faster, but the network security is much lower and there is a risk of the network becoming centralized if the largest share is concentrated in the hands of a few groups.

Bitcoin decentralized, Nope.
The Top 4 btc mining pool operators control over 61% of all of bitcoin hashrate, looks centralized to me.  
A mere collusion of 4 people is all that is required to doublespend on the bitcoin.

While Cardano has over 670 active staking pools, now that looks decentralized and more secure.  

With a PoS coins any owner can join a pool and stake their coins and participate in the network security.

With PoW, you are at the mercy of the top 4 pool operating overlords, which is ok, if you like being a slave to whims of those 4 people.

PoW is slavery for the masses &  PoS is Freedom , choose according to your true nature.
 

[pooya87]

but if you want the truth look at coins such as Cardano and Algorand, PoS V3 blockchains,
their performance and cost & energy efficiently exceed bitcoin by leaps and bounds.

Another newbie bagholder who thinks centralized premined shitcoins are better than bitcoin even though technology and statistics say otherwise

China wisely banned all Bitcoin PoW Mining to protect their power grid and their people,
Texas has foolishly taken up the slack, and could suffer a fatal power grid collaspe this winter thanks to

The statistics say China used 7,510 terawatt hours before banning bitcoin mining (from 2020) and is now in 2021 China is using 8,230 terawatt hours after banning bitcoin mining.
Such protection, much wow.

[BlackHatCoiner]

While Cardano has over 670 active staking pools, now that looks decentralized and more secure.  

And less than 1% of the Cardano users, hold over 50% of the coins. Yeah, you don't have centralized problems, but you have another pimp above your head; your wealth distribution sucks.

But, no! Keep saying cliché phrases about freedom and slavery that sensitize us.

With PoW, you are at the mercy of the top 4 pool operating overlords, which is ok, if you like being a slave to whims of those 4 people.

With PoW, you're at the mercy of the pool that incentivizes you the most. There are not only 4, just like there are many pools in PoS.

[Tash]

LOL, V3 blockchains, more like blockchain version 653

[TangentC]

bitcoiner cult speak

If you think everycoin not bitcoin is a shitcoin, then you are a bitcoin cult member.  

With PoW, you're at the mercy of the pool that incentivizes you the most. There are not only 4, just like there are many pools in PoS.

Exactly what a slave would say.
The rest of the pools are irrelevant since the top 4 mining pool overlords can 51% attack at a moment's notice.

Freemen want to take part in securing their blockchain, slaves want the rich to it.
LOL, it bothers me not that the truth might be a trigger word for you. 

[pooya87]

If you think everycoin not bitcoin is a shitcoin, then you are a bitcoin cult member.

Classic bagholder response.

Every altcoin I have ever branded as a shitcoin has been a project that I have looked into, sometimes even checked the code and when I see they lack basic principles such as decentralization, security, immutability, fair distribution (one way to know this is checking their premine), utility, innovation, etc. then they are automatically considered as a shitcoin.

[Nhazwrath]

I know Bitcoin is running on a proof of work consensus algorithm. Recently I discovered proof of stake by reading up a bit on Cardano and Ethereum's 2.0 plans.

What is the difference between these two, how does POS reduce the energy required to mine a block transaction and are either of these more secure than the other? Basically what are the pros and cons of each.

Also if POS consumes less energy, then wouldn't it be a good idea for Bitcoin to transition to a POS algorithm?

Yes , it would be, but bitcoin cult members can't grasp that, for some reason it destroys their dogma,
kind of the same way they refuse to do anything to improve onchain transaction capacity.

Asking that question here and you get a slanted one-sided replies, PoW good, PoS bad,
but if you want the truth look at coins such as Cardano and Algorand, PoS V3 blockchains,
their performance and cost & energy efficiently exceed bitcoin by leaps and bounds.

All one has to do is look at the majority of new coins and no one bothers with outdated Proof of Waste anymore.

Biggest question is how long can a Country or State, continue to support an ever growing PoW energy drain before their power grid collapses.
China wisely banned all Bitcoin PoW Mining to protect their power grid and their people,
Texas has foolishly taken up the slack, and could suffer a fatal power grid collaspe this winter thanks to being suckered into allowing Bitcoin PoW Mining.
You can monitor Texas power grid here: http://www.ercot.com/
Within 1 - 2 years, Texas will also be forced to decide save their power grid and their people, or rolling blackouts until the total grid failure occurs all for the sake of bitcoin PoW miners.

 

There's alot of fud and lies in your statements.  Do you happen to be affiliated with the state of china perhaps?   The attempt to frame bitcoin as a cult is number 1 the lie about china banning bitcoin to save power grids is 2.  if Texas has a power grid issue with the large scale miners you would think something would be said Prior to them setting up eh? lots of Private grids in Texas.  They are weird like that letting the free market decide.

Not Fud, it is Fact.  
https://gizmodo.com/a-chinese-province-could-ban-bitcoin-mining-to-cut-down-1846397717

Over the past decade,
bitcoin has put increasing stress on the largely coal-powered grid of China’s Inner Mongolia.
Now, the province is clamping down.
Late last week, province officials announced plans to ban all new bitcoin and other cryptocurrency mining ventures and quickly phase out existing activity in order to
reduce electricity consumption.

Bitcoin miners fled to Texas & Kazakhstan.
https://forkast.news/headlines/kazakhstans-power-shortages-crypto-miners-scramble/

Kazakhstan — one of the popular destinations for Chinese crypto miners as they look for more regulation-friendly shores
— continues to face power shortages, with its national grid operator last week rationing power after some failures occurred in a few power units.

the power consumption demand in some parts of Kazakhstan has overrun the power generation volume
“due to the sharp increase in consumption by the digital mining consumers (over 1,000 MW) and higher number of emergencies at power plants.”

Kazakhstan does not have the energy reserves of Texas so their power grid drama will play out sooner.

Watch the news and the power grids for any country or state dumb enough to welcome the energy draining bitcoin miners over the next year,
rolling blackouts don't lie.

 


FYI:
If you think Bitcoin PoW energy waste is not a problem,
If you think Bitcoin lack of onchain transaction capacity is not a problem.
Your are in the Bitcoin Cult. 
https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/bitcoin-isnt-dead-but-it-is-a-cult-1183b4d2318f
https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857
https://adamcaudill.com/2018/06/21/bitcoin-is-a-cult/
https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/nobel-prize-winning-economist-calls-bitcoin-a-cult/

The most important thing that distinguishes POW from POS is network security as well as decentralization. The POW that Bitcoin operates on is the most secure and more decentralized and the more hashing power the more secure the network and this makes it very difficult to hack, but at the same time this makes the transaction take longer and the fees are higher. .
As for POS, I think its main advantage is lower costs, which makes fees lower and transactions faster, but the network security is much lower and there is a risk of the network becoming centralized if the largest share is concentrated in the hands of a few groups.

Bitcoin decentralized, Nope.
The Top 4 btc mining pool operators control over 61% of all of bitcoin hashrate, looks centralized to me.  
A mere collusion of 4 people is all that is required to doublespend on the bitcoin.

While Cardano has over 670 active staking pools, now that looks decentralized and more secure.  

With a PoS coins any owner can join a pool and stake their coins and participate in the network security.

With PoW, you are at the mercy of the top 4 pool operating overlords, which is ok, if you like being a slave to whims of those 4 people.

PoW is slavery for the masses &  PoS is Freedom , choose according to your true nature.
 

Slogans and fud that you push do not make for reality.  It only attempts to warp reality.  The china fud with electricity is rather amusing attempt on your part due to the fact that china is known for lying about well....everything really and, has a 4,000 year history of doing so.  Following this logic you can easily see how you would believe everyone else's fud to push whatever coin they currently have,   I've already pointed out Cardanos critical flaw which is currently unsolvable.  Its betting on AI to catch up and solve the problem.  but I doubt that will happen.  even if it does the fact its designed to be centralized means its has built in corruption problems.

I do think bitcoins future hashrate has a pareto distro problem.  It currently does not.  Where in the future it has this problem is unknowable at this time.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If you think everycoin not bitcoin is a shitcoin, then you are a bitcoin cult member.

Well, every cryptocurrency, besides Monero, that I've dived into was much worse than Bitcoin, so yeah I'll support Bitcoin instead. No need to label it. I'm not into a cult. There's no leader either way.

The rest of the pools are irrelevant since the top 4 mining pool overlords can 51% attack at a moment's notice.

It's not as easy as you say it is. If they'll ever want to reverse a transaction, the miners will know it. It's down to the miners' decision if their attack is going to succeed or not. The miners receive headers which include the height. Thus, a pool can't attack if the miners are unaware of it.

But, again, same thing happens with Cardano. As I said, less than 1% of the ADA users, hold the majority of the coins. What makes you think it's more resistant to a 51% attack?