Print Page - Andreas Antonopoulos says to stop using paper wallets, do you agree?

Paper wallets are fine, but most people don't know how to use it properly. For the sake of simplicity, I'm answering from the POV that both HD and single address paper wallets are the same.

I skimmed through the video, so forgive me if I got any of it wrong. Cold storage are offline methods of storing the keys, but it doesn't guarantee any degree of security, or at least without the user intentionally practicing good security habits (generation, and spending namely). I've long advocated for most people to use hardware wallets, because they are designed to be secure. They are convenient in the sense that they dumb down the security for most, to the point for which it is harder to make common mistakes which can compromise the security.

If you can correctly and securely establish your own air-gapped wallet, then sure, you should use it by all means. That eliminates the costs going into it and also the degree of trust into the device and the manufacturer. However, if you know that you might unintentionally make any mistakes which can compromise your security, or if you're unsure about what attack vectors that you're trying to guard against (and if you can eliminate them effectively), then please use a hardware wallet.

Personally, I've used a RPi as an air-gapped wallet for quite a while but the hassle of it doesn't really appeal to me, though I know I can properly generate and use the cold storage. I opted for a well-known and transparent hardware wallet and have never looked back since.

None of his arguments against paper wallets scare me. He basically says you have to trust a hardware wallet.
It's a hell of a lot more complicated to create and use a paper wallet on a proper air gapped system though, but once in a while I swing on a dedicated laptop for it. I also have a dedicated printer, without Wifi or LAN.

Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses? I've seen countless people enter their mnemonic seed into a phishing website. I've seen even more people lose their funds because they left them on an exchange. Paper wallets aren't perfect, but they serve a purpose.
I've used paper wallets as a very easy giveaway, and some of the receivers still hodl it. The total value at the time was less than the price of a hardware wallet, which makes a paper wallet the best solution in that case.

I wouldn't tell anyone to stop using any type of wallets, just as long as they understand what are the advantages and disadvantages of each wallet type (that could include even custodial wallets). For example a paper wallet generated on a website is never secure or a hardware wallet that can be exploited can lead to losses. So you can never that one method is better than the other IMO.

When comparing hardware wallets with paper wallets I would consider two facts.
1) If the user is new and doesn't want to or can not spend time learning and creating a secure wallet, the hardware wallet for them is a good option. They just have to pay some money to buy them.
2) If the user is going to regularly access the wallet, using hardware wallet is more convenient than using a paper wallet. Also if paper wallet was chosen a HD one should be created instead of a single key.

Personally since I didn't like paying for my bitcoin wallet, I created my own cold storage using a USB disk and a Linux OS and Electrum with paper backups. I wouldn't call it outdated either.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 08:51:45 AM

Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses?

Not really a fair comparison. How could a paper do that?

Consider this scenario:
You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?

Although Andreas is advocating for the use of hardware wallets (I think he even mentioned ColdCard in the video), the point is to stop using individual private keys and back them up. Too many mistakes have happened that have caused people to lose money by not making a proper backup of their private key, using bad software solutions that send change to a different address whose private key you don't have, etc. Instead of that use HD wallets and forget about single keys. Hardware wallets happen to be a good compromise between security and simplicity.

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2022, 09:29:38 AM

Besides hacks to HD wallet databases ( why companies can’t seem to properly secure their servers with encryption like Signal /telegram have I still don’t understand, shouldn’t there be encryption code out there everyone could utilize, or would that expose the encryption and make it useless?) are there any other big security risks with them? Could Trezor /ColdCards etc secretly build in some sort of attack that would enable them to steal coins somehow? Perhaps a highly technical employee plans to go rogue with a few million so they build it in and steal before anyone notices…Maybe this is a silly question but this stuff is Chinese to me. Appreciate y’all !

~~Signal and Telegram are not encryption, neither are they used to secure data. They are messaging applications.~~
Nevermind, might've misunderstood it. They operate on a need-to-know basis, messages are encrypted from end-to-end.

The hardware wallet company needs your personal data, or else your hardware wallet will never reach you. Unlike passwords, which allows for websites to only store hashed and salted database, you cannot store an encrypted shipping address (without it being decrypted at some point in time), because that is useless. At some point in time, your shipping data will be made known to the company and that is the time frame for which it can be compromised. Problem being, certain company was found to have stored the data for longer than necessary (ie. after the device is shipped).

Sure, hardware wallets can definitely do this. Use a flawed RNG at any point in time when you're using your device. This is why independent audits and having their firmware being open source are necessary. The way most hardware wallet is designed makes it such that it is difficult to embed malicious codes without changing the chips themselves, ColdCard for example does a check on the firmware on every boot and its bootloader only takes in signed firmware.

Still, there is a certain level of trust which can really never be eliminated. I'd probably still support a well-known manufacturer though.

Quote from: Pmalek on January 02, 2022, 09:25:25 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 08:51:45 AM

Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses?

Not really a fair comparison. How could a paper do that?

Exactly, that's my point :)

Quote

Consider this scenario:
You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?

Everybody has a printer, nobody cares about it, and nobody is going to hit you on the head with a $5 wrench to ask you about your printer. But just in case, you can pick one up at a store, wear a mask inside, and pay in cash.

Quote

Too many mistakes have happened that have caused people to lose money by not making a proper backup of their private key, using bad software solutions that send change to a different address whose private key you don't have, etc. Instead of that use HD wallets and forget about single keys. Hardware wallets happen to be a good compromise between security and simplicity.

That's all true, but doesn't mean paper wallets can't be used in certain cases. In fact, it works just as well as it did 10 years ago, and that's the beauty of paper wallets: it will still work the same decades later.

Quote from: ranochigo on January 02, 2022, 09:45:49 AM

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2022, 09:29:38 AM

Could Trezor /ColdCards etc secretly build in some sort of attack that would enable them to steal coins somehow? Perhaps a highly technical employee plans to go rogue with a few million so they build it in and steal before anyone notices…

Sure, hardware wallets can definitely do this. Use a flawed RNG at any point in time when you're using your device. This is why independent audits and having their firmware being open source are necessary. The way most hardware wallet is designed makes it such that it is difficult to embed malicious codes without changing the chips themselves, ColdCard for example does a check on the firmware on every boot and its bootloader only takes in signed firmware.

Still, there is a certain level of trust which can really never be eliminated. I'd probably still support a well-known manufacturer though.

Independent audit/open source firmware could reduce the risks. But rogue firmware update (e.g. forcing fixed k value on ECDSA during signing transaction) signed/released by rouge employee is theoretically possible.

While a cypherpunk myself; and a fan of fully trusted setups, generating seeds with own entropy and stuff like that, I think Andreas is speaking to the 99% of the crowd who probably aren't even on this forum and would 9 times out of 10 mess up a paper wallet.

If you know what you are doing and you use a setup like Loyce (with dedicated offline printer and computer) and such, go for it - there will be less trust involved.

But the majority of people will create a paper wallet probably with the online version of a potentially malicious site (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5249129.0) and screenshot the seed; thus making it heaps more secure for them to just use a hardware wallet.

To be honest, people can be phished into giving away their seed more easily when it's printed on paper as well, compared to hardware wallets that either only show it once during creation of the wallet or have to be dug out of a deep menu that gives a person time to second-guess what they are actually about to do. HW wallets could even implement features like time-locks before showing the seed and display a support email address or the like (though I haven't seen that done yet) if there are any questions from the customer, for example.

Never talk in absolutes.
Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.

People in general have gotten used to banks / brokerage houses / and so on keeping their money somewhat safe. Now that we have to take some responsibility to keep our funds safe there will always be "a better way to do it" but everyone will do what works for them, not what is "better" since what works for me might not work for you.

Also, keep in mind you still see how at times the failures of this. There are news items popping up about how people bought an old house and while renovating it found cash / gold / other expensive items in the walls. At times the home had passed thought several owners before it was found. Guess that secure method did not work out well for the person who did it.....

-Dave

As Andreas says at 0:43, in this video he is talking about a single key paper wallet, which is essentially a piece of paper containing a single private key and single address. I tend to agree with him here; such wallets are outdated. I have several wallets which I would refer to as a paper wallet, that is, a wallet which is generated on an airgapped device using a live OS, stored only on paper, and then all digital traces of the wallet are destroyed. However, all my such wallets are HD wallets, which involve me writing down a seed phrase, maybe a passphrase if I'm using one (on separate paper), and noting the first handful of addresses with which to receive coins. This avoids all the issues with single key paper wallets, such as making mistakes when handling individual private keys, privacy implications of reusing the same address, losing change, and so on. It also allows me to bypass using a printer altogether and hand writing the seed phrase and passphrase instead of printing the private key.

His arguments regarding hardware wallets are also correct, though. For the vast majority of users, a hardware wallet will be a much better option than an airgapped device, since they do not have the technical knowledge or skills to properly set up an airgapped device. No reason you can't combine the two though, if you really want to use a paper wallet. Take your hardware wallet, generate a new seed phrase, write it down, get the first address to send some coins to, and then wipe your hardware wallet. You now effectively have an HD paper wallet.

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2022, 08:06:09 AM

He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?

I saw this video few days ago and I would somehow agree with him that average users, and tiktok generation should better stop using and generating paper wallets because they are obsolete.
There is nothing wrong if you already have some old paper wallet, and you can use it just fine, but it's much better to have option for easy generating of new addresses, that is impossible to do on paper wallets.
If I had to choose between open source hardware wallet and paper wallets, I would always choose hardware wallet option.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 08:51:45 AM

Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses? I've seen countless people enter their mnemonic seed into a phishing website. I've seen even more people lose their funds because they left them on an exchange. Paper wallets aren't perfect, but they serve a purpose.

Remember when one of those online website generating paper wallets got compromised, and I think that even you (correct me if I am wrong) had to change recommendations for using that website?
Thousands and maybe millions of people used that website that had a flaw, meaning that information was leaked, and who knows how many people used that website incorrectly while being online.
No company or face behind them, so you can't really blame them like you can blame ledger and owners from French village.

Quote from: n0nce on January 02, 2022, 11:44:44 AM

Even people on this forum would mess up paper wallets, and I guess people could still ride a horse today if they want, but most of them still opted out for driving a car that is faster.
You could die in some accident using any of this options, but you have airbags and seatbelts in cars so it's more likely you would survive a car crash.
It's similar thing with paper wallets and ''faster'' hardware wallets, but I guess you still have to secure your PAPER/metal backup even for hardware wallets :D

Quote from: DaveF on January 02, 2022, 01:09:36 PM

The issue with that is many people advocate “it’s not a big deal keeping my coins on several exchanges, it makes things so easy for me”. That’s called being lazy and dumb. Coinbase is the biggest and most convenient exchange /storage.but..corrupt as all fuck. Most people store their money at Chase or Bank of America because it’s convenient for them. That’s also stupid and lazy. For one they are massively corrupt, and two you earn jack shit storing money with them, if not losing. The best option, regardless of convenience is storing money on an online bank such as Ally. They aren’t corrupt like the big banks and offer a .5% interest rate vs like .001% at Chase/Wells etc. As a financial advisor I hear the “it’s what’s convenient for me” all the time and it’s one of the biggest mistakes people make and it often costs them dearly ..so respectfully convenience shouldn’t be involved in anything financial if it’s not best. If a new best arrives, then make changes!

Cold storage is the only acceptable way to store any sizable amount of coins long term & convenience should play next to no role in this. We know this is best, whether hardware or paper. Hardware offers safety paper doesn’t and vice versa so convenience here is acceptable.

The problem wasn’t the storage of money in the house, it is once again laziness and ignorance. Had they made a proper trust/will ..this wouldn’t have happened.

Quote from: DaveF on January 02, 2022, 01:09:36 PM

I agree. However, which group do you think is bigger? Those who know how to go about using paper wallets or those who could mess it up somehow? You might not even belong to either of those groups, but you just don't want to commit to the task of creating such solutions.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 02, 2022, 02:13:06 PM

Exactly! I have to quote myself here:

Quote from: Pmalek on January 02, 2022, 08:25:01 AM

He is saying that it is not needed to keep track of individual private keys (on paper, steel or otherwise) and their addresses in today's age of recovery phrases. When Bitcoin was still in its beginning, it didn't have 12/24 word recovery phrases. Now it does and we use HD wallets. Why make backups of a single private key when you can take note of the recovery phrase and back up every private key that can be derived from it.

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 02, 2022, 02:20:51 PM

There is nothing wrong if you already have some old paper wallet, and you can use it just fine, but it's much better to have option for easy generating of new addresses, that is impossible to do on paper wallets.

With single key paper wallets, sure. With HD paper wallets, it's as easy as having a watch only wallet with your master public key on your computer.

Quote from: Pmalek on January 02, 2022, 02:54:27 PM

However, which group do you think is bigger?

Clearly the group of those who do not have the technical knowledge required to safely set up and use a paper wallet far outnumber the group of those who do. But I agree that saying that no one should ever use a paper wallet because most people can't use it safely is wrong. Most people can't fly a plane safely or perform surgery safely - doesn't mean those things should be off limits for everyone.

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2022, 02:22:30 PM

They aren’t corrupt like the big banks and offer a .5% interest rate vs like .001% at Chase/Wells etc.

Off topic, but any interest rate below inflation means you are losing money. Whether you are losing 4.5% or 5% per year is pretty academical.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 10:00:39 AM

Quote from: Pmalek on January 02, 2022, 09:25:25 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 08:51:45 AM

Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses?

Not really a fair comparison. How could a paper do that?

Exactly, that's my point :)

Quote

Some printers have features that do not work well with printing confidential information. For example, some printers will save the last n pages it has printed so the user can easily reprint something they spilled coffee on. Sure, you can probably disable this feature, but it is one more thing you need to worry about.

Quote from: DaveF on January 02, 2022, 01:09:36 PM

Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.

The thing about paper wallets is that it really never makes logical sense to use one. In all cases, the potential risks involved in using a paper wallet include all risks involved in using a wallet stored in digital format and include additional risks not involved in storing a wallet in digital format.

For example, when you generate your private keys, you must rely upon the RNG of your OS. This is true regardless of whether you are creating a paper wallet or a wallet that will be stored on a USB drive. If you are creating a paper wallet, you must expose your private key to any "eyes" (including cameras) that can see in the room you are in. If you are creating a wallet that will be stored on a USB drive, you never need to expose the private keys to "eyes looking in the room".

While you are storing your paper wallet, if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera (they can also take the actual paper wallet, however there may be some situations in which an adversary can see the paper wallet, but cannot remove it). With a wallet stored on a USB drive, an adversary would need to connect the USB drive to a computer, or other equipment in order to make a copy (or they can remove it, if possible). If there is any encryption applied to a paper wallet, the exact same encryption can be applied to a wallet being stored on a USB drive.

When you spend any coin stored on a paper wallet, you again will need to expose the private keys to the "eyes looking in the room", and again this is not the case for a wallet being stored on a USB drive.

If you were to replace "USB drive" with "Hardware Wallet" above, you would have incrementally greater security because HW wallets generally have a "cool-down" period in between unsuccessful attempts to use the HW wallet.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 02, 2022, 08:39:26 PM

My assumption is that a cheap black and white laser printer doesn't store anything after I cut it's power. But if you're really worried about that, make sure the printer never leaves your house. Or encrypt the wallet before printing.

Quote

the potential risks involved in using a paper wallet include all risks involved in using a wallet stored in digital format and include additional risks not involved in storing a wallet in digital format.

I can think of a few risks from storing digital data. I trust paper much more than anything digital when it comes to (for example):

Magnets
Aging/Reliability
Accidentally connecting it to the internet
Hiding
Moisture (when laminated)
Static electricity
Physical damage

Quote

when you generate your private keys, you must rely upon the RNG of your OS

I can think of several ways to add random data which doesn't rely on that OS.

Quote

If you are creating a paper wallet, you must expose your private key to any "eyes" (including cameras) that can see in the room you are in.

It's generally wise not to do anything confidential when anyone or any device can see you.

Quote

if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera (they can also take the actual paper wallet

Fold it, staple it, tape it, laminate it, mount it on the wall, hide it... How is this different than writing down the mnemonic to your hardware wallet?

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 10:15:57 PM

It's generally wise not to do anything confidential when anyone or any device can see you.

if you dont trust your own family in your own home. maybe you should get a divorce and get your kids sent away to be adopted.(joke)

seems some are a little too paranoid in their own homes.
heres the thing though. with all the old school definition of paper wallet and the paranoid requirements of printed said paper wallet in complete privacy away from family.... what still remains is that you then have to hide said paper away from family. and put a hammer to your PC and printer to stop family from checking your document history later
(kind of overboard)

and for the rest of your life, not keep the paperwallet at home.. because you dont trust family to not find it a day, week, month later laying around the house.

the only real advice, without the paranoid 'over-fearing' scare tactics is:
to not do it on someone elses device, EG in a public library.
to not make a single paper wallet with significant amounts on it

if a burglar was to break into your house. they are not going to spend hours trying to look on your PC for fingerprints of if you are a bitcoiner. it takes too long
burglars dont rummage through all your letters and paperwork. it takes too long
they are simply going to steal your wifes jewellery. or your car keys and be out your house in under 5 minutes

no burglar bothers to look at printer cache data on the printers chip. they have a crowbar, not a device with hacker tools.
no burglar bothers to spend months trying to brute force your PC password.

they are more then likely going to factory reset your PC without going into your files to avoid any 'trace my pc' software pinging their location. and then selling the PC to a pawn shop

the real world fear is not your coins being stolen. but your access to your device/wallet being taken where the coins end up 'burned' via lost keys

Quote from: desmodiAN on January 02, 2022, 03:28:38 PM

For most people in crypto he is right.
For some very careful and technical trained and social aware people, the paper wallet style might still be an option (Also i recommend steel engraved word lists)

Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
Whatever instruction they follow, they have no idea what is safe. They ll likely loose their coins when dealing with paper wallets.

Regardless of the audience, claiming that paper wallets are obsolete is pretty misleading. In fact it is more misleading if the audience is at beginners level or doesn't understand much. They should be educated on why and when a paper wallet is insecure or doesn't provide the functionality that you would want (single private key compared to HD wallets). And more importantly they should be told about what they can do to improve that.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 02, 2022, 08:39:26 PM

Some printers have features that do not work well with printing confidential information.

So don't use a printer at all, or only use it to print out information which is not a security risk, such as your addresses, xpubs, or QR codes of the same. Write down the seed phrase instead.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 02, 2022, 08:39:26 PM

For example, when you generate your private keys, you must rely upon the RNG of your OS.

So create entropy manually by flipping a coin.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 02, 2022, 08:39:26 PM

If you are creating a paper wallet, you must expose your private key to any "eyes" (including cameras) that can see in the room you are in.

So close the curtains, put some tape over your laptop camera, and leave your phone in another room.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 02, 2022, 08:39:26 PM

While you are storing your paper wallet, if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera.

So use one or more passphrases.

All of these supposed "weaknesses" of paper wallets are weaknesses of every wallet which you back up your seed phrase on paper. By creating a wallet, backing it up on paper, and then destroying the electronic copy, then I am only removing some vectors of attack.

Quote from: franky1 on January 03, 2022, 12:34:18 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 10:15:57 PM

It's generally wise not to do anything confidential when anyone or any device can see you.

if you dont trust your own family in your own home. maybe you should get a divorce and get your kids sent away to be adopted.(joke)

My kids are young, I don't want them around when handling sensitive stuff because they're distracting.

Quote

seems some are a little too paranoid in their own homes.

With many listening devices equipped with cameras in the house, I don't think you can be too paranoid.

Quote

put a hammer to your PC and printer to stop family from checking your document history later

A live Linux DVD and dumb printer solve all this.

Quote

and for the rest of your life, not keep the paperwallet at home.. because you dont trust family to not find it a day, week, month later laying around the house.

How is this different when storing 24 seed words to a hardware wallet?

Quote

the only real advice, without the paranoid 'over-fearing' scare tactics is:
to not do it on someone elses device, EG in a public library.
to not make a single paper wallet with significant amounts on it

You forgot one: Don't use Windows (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5190626.msg52680459#msg52680459).

Quote

the real world fear is not your coins being stolen. but your access to your device/wallet being taken where the coins end up 'burned' via lost keys

That's a perfect use case for paper wallets, they're much easier to copy than hardware.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 10:15:57 PM

I don't know if anyone saw what SeedSigner is doing for manually backing up wallets with QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.
This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.
This QR code for example contains twelve word seed phrase, and entering this code will import your seed words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1-PqTNx1vc

Quote from: franky1 on January 03, 2022, 12:34:18 AM

and for the rest of your life, not keep the paperwallet at home.. because you dont trust family to not find it a day, week, month later laying around the house.

It's more likely that even if your family finds your paper wallet they won't know how to use it, or if you used bad printer they wont find anything because ink palled like we see in those thermal receipt printers all the time.

Quote from: pooya87 on January 03, 2022, 04:43:06 AM

He was talking for years and educating people why paper wallets shouldn't be used my masses anymore, and this is not his first video about that subject.
It's easy to find all his previous videos and I am sure you will find that he explained several times what you are talking about.

The thing is Andreas is likely aiming this statement towards the masses, rather than those that are technically sound. While I do agree you shouldn't be speaking in absolutes, to be honest with the goal being getting average users with no technical background comfortable with Bitcoin, its best to offer advice which is the least technical, while still offering a good standard of security. I get what Andreas is trying to say, I wouldn't go as far as this statement, and instead would say that there are definitely more secure ways to secure your Bitcoin than x, however this usually requires some sort of technical know how, and has the potential for pitfalls which could ultimately lead to less secure storage despite being conventionally better.

Though, that doesn't have the same ring to it does it? His advice is sound, he isn't ruling out the use of paper wallets completely, only to those that don't quite understand the technical sides, the pros, and the cons of using one. Paper wallets are usually as secure as the person generating them.

Ultimately, our goal as a community should be providing as many people as possible with the freedom to choose what they want to do with their money, and by making Bitcoin less complex we will achieve that goal a little easier than if it was overly complex.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 03, 2022, 05:58:34 PM

You need a device that tells you which fields to make black. And you'll need another device to verify the QR-code actually works.

You can use open source SeedSigner (raspberry Pi zero), that is ONE device not two, but I was just giving example of how this can be done.
Similar thing can be done in software level on any offline computer.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 03, 2022, 05:58:34 PM

Quote

not by some machine you need to trust that ink will survive long enough without fading.

I trust my toner will last for centuries, and I don't think a black pen/marker can improve that.

Not a chance toner can last centuries.
They all have expiration dates, and printed ink is guaranteed to fade much faster than that, especially if you filled toner yourself or you kept it in bad air conditions.
Printer is also machine right? And your computer is also a machine, so you need two machines to print your paper wallet, that could leave memory history of you doing that, both in computer and in memory of printer.

Quote from: Welsh on January 03, 2022, 04:28:51 PM

however this usually requires some sort of technical know how, and has the potential for pitfalls which could ultimately lead to less secure storage despite being conventionally better.

Absolutely agree. Part of the problem here is not just having the knowledge required to avoid such pitfalls, but also having enough knowledge to realize that you don't possess such knowledge. We see time and again plenty of newbies on this forum who think that unplugging their Ethernet cable or turning off their WiFi means they can do whatever they like on their computer in complete safety. If you don't have the knowledge to safely create an airgapped wallet, the danger is you don't have the knowledge to realize that either. Perhaps Andreas' method of just saying "Never use a paper wallet" isn't so bad after all, rather than saying only use one if you can do x, y, and z, and newbies thinking they know how to do that. If you say "Never use a paper wallet" then this applies to the vast majority of users, and the few who know how to do so safely will also know they can safely ignore such statements.

Quote from: Welsh on January 03, 2022, 04:28:51 PM

Ultimately, our goal as a community should be providing as many people as possible with the freedom to choose what they want to do with their money

But at the same time we should be steering newbies away from risky solutions such as creating their own paper wallets or using custodial closed source web wallets.

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 03, 2022, 02:15:53 PM

I don't know if anyone saw what SeedSigner is doing for manually backing up wallets with QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.

I fail to see a single benefit of doing this over writing down a seed phrase. You first have to generate the seed phrase anyway, you are trusting additional hardware and software to generate the QR code, it is time consuming, the potential for making an error is huge in comparison to a seed phrase, it is incredibly difficult (if not impossible?) to use a metal plate if you prefer that over paper, it is time consuming and error prone to duplicate, and trying to figure out/brute force a mistake will be exponentially harder than doing the same for a seed phrase. What is the use case here?

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 02, 2022, 03:07:04 PM

Off topic, but any interest rate below inflation means you are losing money. Whether you are losing 4.5% or 5% per year is pretty academical.

I have this conversation all day every day with my clients, I’m like a parrot. My point was though don’t just always opt for what’s easiest, but take the time and do what’s best.

Moral of the story - proper paper wallet , if can guarantee proper creation and it’s safely (which might be technically impossible ) is best. Hardware however has enough advantage it’s deemed a viable alternative.

Andreas should have been more specific in his video, I don’t like how he framed it all.

My bad mods - this felt like a hard topic to know where to place.

Edit & thx again to all who contributed here, you all are always helping me and it’s very much appreciated!

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 03, 2022, 02:15:53 PM

You are right but still it would be a lot better to clarify in this video or use the annotation thingy in youtube to direct to other videos. Some newcomers may not watch every video of his and only see this one and never learn more than this.

To be fair A.A. is not the only case that calls paper wallets "obsolete and unsafe" we have bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet) that is doing the same thing. At least the wiki, it was in 2018 that they finally added the seed phrase line (which still isn't enough IMO).

I'll let you all know my personal thoughts on Papers Wallets.

I believe they are a fundamental part of the history of Bitcoin and cripto-curreny itself, back in the day (I have read) they were the most secure way to store one's Bitcoins, they served a purpose, even thought they had their disadvantages like any other type of Bitcoin Storage.

Time passed, the community evolved and so did the methods of storage and I personally believe that anyone who is holding more than a few hundreds of bucks should get a good, open source Hardware wallet instead printing a Paper Wallet. Of course, I am not saying we should dispose of Paper wallets completely, just because something is "old" or "obsolete" does not mean people need to stay away from it. To this day, there are people that enjoy old cars, old computers, old games, old safes...etc.

So if anyone wants to have their paper wallet, that's ok.
But please do not make it your main wallet with all your satoshis, keep it away from liquids and your pockes, so it will not end up within the washing machine.

Quote from: riso2015 on January 04, 2022, 02:10:03 AM

everyone who sees it must be very easy to steal it

Then keep it hidden.

Quote from: riso2015 on January 04, 2022, 02:10:03 AM

pieces of paper are also easily damaged, flammable and easily exposed to water

As are hardware wallets or computers. Also things like humidity, extremes of temperature, impacts, etc., will damage electronics far easier than they will damage paper.

Quote from: Hispo on January 04, 2022, 05:24:22 AM

keep it away from liquids and your pockes, so it will not end up within the washing machine.

To follow on from the previous point: You should never find yourself in the situation where damage or loss of a single object will result in complete loss of your funds. With almost all electronic wallets, we back them up on to paper, so if the computer/phone/hardware wallet in question is damaged or lost, we can recover our coins. The same should be the case with paper wallets or any other offline wallets. You should have a minimum of two copies of your paper wallet stored in separate locations, so if one does end up being damaged you can recover from the other one.

This is just basic computing knowledge. Always have back ups of important data.

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2022, 08:06:09 AM

Was just having the convo of safest storage methods with some buddies and an hour later this popped up on my YouTube - https://youtu.be/iNHVbDtUL0E

I’m having a hard time understanding if he means for the general public/ non experts (me) or even for someone like himself or Gmaxwell , for example ? I had always been taught that paper wallets are the purest form of cold storage. He’s advocating for hardware wallets (even over a correctly established air-gapped pc) , but there are sone risks they pose that paper does not, right? He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?

As always appreciate any insight you Mr Robots can provide!

A paper wallet generated from an air-gapped computer, and the private keys secured properly is I believe just as safe and secure as a hardware wallet. I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.

Personally, I respect the opinion of Andreas Antonopoulos because I learned a lot about Bitcoin from his educational videos, podcasts, and books. He is known for his unique ability to explain very complex technical stuff in a language understandable for a complete newbie like I was three years ago. But I don't think I completely agree with Andreas on the question regarding paper wallets because I think it is not paper wallets that became obsolete, it is the very definition of paper wallets that is no longer suitable for the current reality. From my point of view, there is no any difference between a backup of sensitive information handwritten on a piece of paper that gives access to my funds and the same sensitive information, but that was printed on a piece of paper as a QR-code or something. The only difference is in technology that was used to present information, but I don't think it matters. If I write a book by my hand, it is still be considered a book but not a backup of it. Both a paper bitcoin wallet and a backup of a bitcoin wallet are the same thing and should be treated equally. Both require certain knowledge and skill to create securely, both give access to funds, both can be written down or printed as QR-codes. By saying you must not use paper wallets, you also mean you shouldn't have physical copies of your keys, which is obviously wrong.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 04, 2022, 08:40:13 AM

I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.

I would not recommend this. By doing this, you have negated the primary benefit of a paper wallet, in that it is completely non digital. This is no longer a paper wallet - rather it is an encrypted software wallet with a paper back up.

Quote from: witcher_sense on January 04, 2022, 08:55:25 AM

it is the very definition of paper wallets that is no longer suitable for the current reality.

Agreed. The terminology is what is confusing people here. Andreas is using paper wallet to refer to "classic" paper wallets, which are a print out of a single private key and address, and I would agree that such wallets are outdated and expose the user to a number of unnecessary risks which I've talked about in a previous post. The current use of the term paper wallet refers far more broadly to any wallet which is stored solely physically and with no digital copies. The paper wallets I use are seed phrases hand written on paper, but I've also seen people use the term paper wallet to refer to seed phrases stamped on to steel plates with no electronic wallet.

Quote from: franky1 on January 03, 2022, 12:34:18 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on January 02, 2022, 10:15:57 PM

if you dont trust your own family in your own home. maybe you should get a divorce and get your kids sent away to be adopted.(joke)

My kids are young, I don't want them around when handling sensitive stuff because they're distracting.

I know that you were joking, but children can get you into trouble unintentionally. LoyceV mentioned one way that can happen. They distract you from your work because you have to pay attention that they don't fall down and injure themselves or they don't destroy something of value.

Let me give you another example. When kids get to a certain age, they start making up stories and innocent lies as their imagination starts running wild. What seems cute, can become troublesome. My friend's little pooper loves playing with me. We wrestle and he pushes me around and it's all fun. Recently, he has started "lying" and making up stories how other people hit him. Sounds cute? Maybe. It's not that cute being asked by the kindergarten teacher if you hit your children. That happened to my friend because his boy was letting his imagination run wild in front of everyone. He also told his teacher that his dad's friend (me) kicked him in the head and body-slammed him to the floor. ;D

If your kids figure out that you are doing something on your computer with Bitcoin and money, that crazy imagination can come alive again and you never know who might be listening or be interested in their stories.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 04, 2022, 09:52:34 AM

Andreas is using paper wallet to refer to "classic" paper wallets, which are a print out of a single private key and address, and I would agree that such wallets are outdated and expose the user to a number of unnecessary risks which I've talked about in a previous post.

And Andreas explained that in the beginning of his video. Because of that, he isn't wrong when he says that (single-key) paper wallets are obsolete and there are better ways to secure your Bitcoin.

Quote from: Pmalek on January 04, 2022, 01:32:31 PM

My kids are young

You messed up the quote.

Quote

Let me give you another example. When kids get to a certain age, they start making up stories and innocent lies as their imagination starts running wild. What seems cute, can become troublesome. My friend's little pooper loves playing with me. We wrestle and he pushes me around and it's all fun. Recently, he has started "lying" and making up stories how other people hit him. Sounds cute? Maybe. It's not that cute being asked by the kindergarten teacher if you hit your children. That happened to my friend because his boy was letting his imagination run wild in front of everyone. He also told his teacher that his dad's friend (me) kicked him in the head and body-slammed him to the floor. ;D

I'm fully aware of this risk, and things that used to be innocent just a few years ago can be suspicious now. I've had my fair share of it already.

Quote

If your kids figure out that you are doing something on your computer with Bitcoin and money, that crazy imagination can come alive again and you never know who might be listening or be interested in their stories.

Because of OPSEC, we use a codeword at home for "Bitcoin" instead of calling it Bitcoin. As much as I like promoting Bitcoin, I don't want the kids to talk about it at school.

Quote from: riso2015 on January 04, 2022, 02:10:03 AM

andreas antonopoulus said to stop using paper wallets, paper wallets are cold storage, our wallets are stored offline, many people say paper wallets are the safest wallets, but personally I agree with andreas antonopoulus, because there are so many risks involved we face if we use a paper wallet, everyone who sees it must be very easy to steal it, pieces of paper are also easily damaged, flammable and easily exposed to water, so I agree with andreas' opinion, I will leave the old method and I prefer to use the new method ..

I do agree if we only have a wallet wrote on the paper and we don't have any other forms of the wallet, it will be risky.
The safest way to save the seed phrase is remembering the words, but it's hard if we have a lot of wallets and usually crypto investors have many wallets to seperate their investment.
Other way i imagine, saving the phrase into a voice note and save it somewhere, if it tracked by the hackers it's quite hard to detect that if the audio files is the key.

Quote from: sirminesalot on January 04, 2022, 04:56:15 PM

I do agree if we only have a wallet wrote on the paper and we don't have any other forms of the wallet, it will be risky.

Paper can be damaged by water, fire, acid and more things. Quality of print is important too. People can use alternatives like laminate, metal sheet, etc. to store private key. Whaterver method is, you should make sure it is safe enough against physical damages. I agree that paper is bad in this aspect.

Quote

The safest way to save the seed phrase is remembering the words, but it's hard if we have a lot of wallets and usually crypto investors have many wallets to seperate their investment.

Lots of things to remember so our memory has its limits. I don't believe that you can remember private keys or seeds if you don't think of it 1 or 2 months. In addition, what if you suddenly get some health issues that cause memory loss. It will be the end and you will lose your Bitcoin. No one can help you to recover your memory.

Quote

Other way i imagine, saving the phrase into a voice note and save it somewhere, if it tracked by the hackers it's quite hard to detect that if the audio files is the key.

It is a first time I know about this approach.

Quote from: pooya87 on January 04, 2022, 05:05:03 AM

To be fair A.A. is not the only case that calls paper wallets "obsolete and unsafe" we have bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet) that is doing the same thing. At least the wiki, it was in 2018 that they finally added the seed phrase line (which still isn't enough IMO).

I am sure that more security experts would agree with that statement, and Trezor developers are even calling paper wallet a relic of the past, a suitable name I would say.
I don't use my old VHS and DVD player anymore, but I guess they could still work just fine for watching movies, even if it's not so easy to find new VHS tapes :)

Let's not assume ourselves that we know what is better and more secure in regards to paper wallets.
There are so many risks for plebs creating paper wallet that I can't count them all, but main risk is with internet browsers that must be used for generating paper wallet.
I know some people who generated their paper wallets on normal computer with internet connection, using their every day browser.
There is no newbie warning on bitaddress.org website to download page and use offline generation... that is a big red alert and just waiting to be exploited by someone.

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 04, 2022, 08:56:08 PM

Trezor developers are even calling paper wallet a relic of the past

They gain customers if people believe that, so I can't help but think they might be biased.

Quote

I know some people who generated their paper wallets on normal computer with internet connection, using their every day browser.

There are also people who fall for phishing emails and give away their hardware wallet seed. That doesn't make the system bad, it makes the users dumb.

Quote

There is no newbie warning on bitaddress.org website to download page and use offline generation...

There's a link to the GitHub Repository (http://), and indeed the site recommending blockchain.info is a bit outdated. Legacy addresses aren't that modern either, so you could argue the entire site is a relic of the past. But I also appreciate just keeping it up, and people should learn not to do things without understanding it, especially when it comes to Bitcoin.
I'll quote eddie13 for this:

Quote from: eddie13 on August 06, 2021, 12:30:31 AM

Should never have put the temporary illusion of safety above personal liberty..

I'm all for warning Newbies, but I sure hope we don't reach the "don't put your cat in the microwave" level of warnings.

The funny thing is: paper wallets were amongst the first wallets I've used, and it's the only wallet type from that time I still trust. But only if I made it myself, of course ;)

Quote from: LoyceV on January 03, 2022, 10:03:02 AM

Quote

the real world fear is not your coins being stolen. but your access to your device/wallet being taken where the coins end up 'burned' via lost keys

That's a perfect use case for paper wallets, they're much easier to copy than hardware.

I was about to say: whether paper or hardware - you're always gonna have a paper or steel backup anyway; so hiding / protecting a seed always needs to be done, no matter which method you use.
I wouldn't say it's easier to copy a hardware wallet's seed than a paper wallet's seed; it's the exact same thing to be honest.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 03, 2022, 10:01:49 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 02, 2022, 08:39:26 PM

While you are storing your paper wallet, if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera.

Actually, one scenario comes to mind where the person has a backed-up hardware wallet without ever writing it on paper / exposing it to potential spy cameras or anything like that. That's with a device like the Foundation Passport. It allows you to insert a microSD card, back the device up to the card and even do it to multiple cards. You can then either just keep the cards and never plug them in unless needed or mount one right away to read the seed and write it to paper. However, it would be smarter to write it off the device's screen, since the computer could be infected and the seed stolen as soon as the card is inserted.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 03, 2022, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 03, 2022, 02:15:53 PM

QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.
This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.

That's a terrible system :P It's far more work than just entering the 12 seed words, and it's far less reliable than using a cheap old laser printer.

The idea about SeedSigner is not mainly for creating paper wallets (in my opinion) but allowing you to also sign transactions (hence the name) while keeping the wallet / seed itself actually offline. It has a camera which can temporarily import the seed through QR code into RAM so it's wiped when power is plugged.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 04, 2022, 09:52:34 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 04, 2022, 08:40:13 AM

I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.

Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.

Plus for real safety and security, especially if someone HODLs millions in Bitcoin, use general computer hardware. Owning a hardware wallet makes you a target.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 05, 2022, 07:21:17 AM

Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.

I don't understand. Could you explain why the existence of encrypted digital keys should make you feel more secure and comfortable especially considering the fact that they are practically useless without the secret key that is required to decrypt them? The problem with the decryption key is that you can't make it encrypted because it is pointless from a security perspective, you also don't want it on digital media because that only increases an attack surface. In short, having created more digital copies of your keys, you also must keep more physical copies of your keys to access your digital ones. The more backups you create, the more likely you will lose access to one of them, which may result in losses.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 05, 2022, 07:21:17 AM

I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.

That's fine for you, if you think that is your best method of securely backing things up and doing so fits your threat model. However, I personally still wouldn't recommend it. As we've discussed in this thread, there is no one right answer here.

Although you definitely cannot call such a set up a paper wallet anymore. That is a digital wallet with paper back ups.

Quote from: witcher_sense on January 05, 2022, 10:55:52 AM

If I have my encrypted seed phrase stored digitally, and the decryption key written on paper, then someone needs to compromise two things to access my coins, as opposed to just one thing if my seed phrase is simply written or printed on paper directly. I would still recommend against storing your seed phrase digitally though, since you are still trusting the hardware you use, the encryption software, that you aren't leaving behind unencrypted traces, that there is no malware spying on the process, etc.

If you want your wallet to require the compromise of two things rather rather just one, then either use an additional complex passphrase, or use a multi-sig set up, with all the relevant data stored on separate pieces of paper in separate locations.

Been a while since I watched his recent stuff, long time admirer here, but didn't know he'd be pushing a hardware wallet -- never mind that.

I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.

But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.

Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on January 04, 2022, 11:53:20 PM

I see quite often how beginners who did a bit of googling decided that paper wallet is the safest option and plan to create one of those "print out your private key" wallet types from the early days. I completely agree that they are outdated because writing down your seed is better in everything. It doesn't require you to have a trusted printer, because you can write it with pen and paper, it doesn't have a problem with change addresses, it's a bit more resilient to damage, it's much more convenient for sending BTC.

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

seeds are better now but i used straight up paper wallets back in the day and as long as you know what you were doing they work.

that being said i had an awful few minutes once when i swept a paper wallet wrong and almost donated the change to the miners. luckily the change went back to the original addy in my case. but it sucked waiting lol

Quote from: buwaytress on January 05, 2022, 01:08:39 PM

I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.

In another video, he answered when someone asked him what is a best wallet. He answered that the best wallet depends on each person and at different time. A good wallet today can be worse than others in future. I think his answer is solid. Paper wallet is good, hardware wallet is good and depends on each person, with different budget and knowledge to use it.

Bitcoin Q&A: How Do I Choose a Wallet? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6b62sEpsY&t=15s)

Quote

But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.

I think it is main objectives of his Youtube channel.

Quote from: n0nce on January 04, 2022, 11:31:35 PM

I was about to say: whether paper or hardware - you're always gonna have a paper or steel backup anyway; so hiding / protecting a seed always needs to be done, no matter which method you use.

This is true, but you would be surprised how many (dumb) people don't have backup phrase on paper, and they ae only depending on hardware wallet device to keep everything. :D
Difference is that you are writing backup yourself with your own hand or metal tools, and for paper wallet printer is doing all the work.

Quote from: n0nce on January 04, 2022, 11:31:35 PM

Physical backup on paper/metal is almost always better than any using digital backup like microSD cards even if they are encrypted, but it's not a bad idea to have multiple options in case one of them fails.
I think that Coldcard and Bitbox02 hardware wallets are doing something similar like Passport with SD card backup.

Quote from: n0nce on January 04, 2022, 11:31:35 PM

Seedsigner is a nice idea, but problem is that Raspberry Pi Zero and all components for making is hard to find know because of supply chain issue, or it's more expensive to buy.

Quote from: vapourminer on January 05, 2022, 02:29:55 PM

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also :D

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 05, 2022, 06:04:40 PM

Quote from: n0nce on January 04, 2022, 11:31:35 PM

I agree; paper is better than an SD card, since in laminated condition it can withstand humidity and heat without issues, also magnetic fields and stuff like that, while an SD card is an electronic device, so it has more potential to fail. I find it cheaper and even more durable to backup with steel washers though, than buying a laminating machine if you don't have one already. Not sure if those no-heat laminating kits are any good though.

The Coldcard and both BitBox 01 and 02 allow for SD card backups as well.
I reckon it's still much better than no backup at all (for anyone too lazy to write 12 words on a piece of paper and maybe laminating it).

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 05, 2022, 06:04:40 PM

Quote from: n0nce on January 04, 2022, 11:31:35 PM

Seedsigner is a nice idea, but problem is that Raspberry Pi Zero and all components for making is hard to find know because of supply chain issue, or it's more expensive to buy.

That's a pity, I didn't know RaspberryPi people are also affected. Maybe just need to wait for restocks? Even before the global supply chain issues in the last years, they ran out of stock from time to time, since they had kind of fixed (I think two-weekly) reshipments.

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 05, 2022, 06:04:40 PM

Quote from: vapourminer on January 05, 2022, 02:29:55 PM

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also :D

To be honest, I don't think this is a fair comparison. I wouldn't classify a hardware wallet as a 'newer, better successor', but rather a 'new, but different' type of seed storage, parallel to the purely paper-based storage format.
Even to the point where pure long-term storage isn't safer using a hardware wallet at all, since you'll end up with a paper backup anyway, which is susceptible to the same risks that a pure paper wallet would be. You're adding tech, but still keeping the seed on paper, so for pure storage there's no 'improvement' unlike car vs horse.
I would argue that it's more convenient and safer (less room for mistakes) to spend coins when kept on a hardware wallet though, and also that the seed generation is safer for most people when they use a hardware wallet.

Quote from: n0nce on January 05, 2022, 06:31:11 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on January 05, 2022, 06:04:40 PM

Quote from: vapourminer on January 05, 2022, 02:29:55 PM

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also :D

To be honest, I don't think this is a fair comparison.

While we're on the analogy of transportation, I'll add mine: paper wallets are like walking. It worked thousands of years ago, and it will work thousands of years from now. Even though there are risks involved, and even though there are much more modern and faster systems available, walking is the one thing that will always be around while many of the much newer systems (like stagecoaches) have long disappeared.

Quote from: witcher_sense on January 05, 2022, 10:55:52 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 05, 2022, 07:21:17 AM

We’re talking about a paper wallet generated in an air-gapped computer. Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated. To back up your private keys, print them, write them down, or copy them in a text file stored in USB, then encrypt them in case someone finds/steals the USB.

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 06, 2022, 04:13:29 PM

I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper. He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.

I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.

Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 06, 2022, 06:10:05 AM

Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated.

The issue here is that having a completely air-gapped device is not necessarily a straightforward thing to achieve. There is a degree of technical knowledge required and should really require the physical removal of hardware. Many people don't do this though, and simply turn off their WiFi or Bluetooth, which isn't really airgapped but many people think it is. You should format the device and install a brand new clean and verified open source OS, but again, many people just use Windows and some don't even format it at all. There is a risk that you accidentally re-enable some piece of connectivity in the future and completely ruin your airgap.

Meanwhile, a piece of paper is a piece of paper. There is no middle ground and no room to compromise. It is always offline.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 07, 2022, 10:52:41 AM

Genuine question: Has he ever recommended a specific brand of hardware wallet? I'm not aware that he has, and if not, then it would be an incredibly ineffective campaign for any specific hardware wallet manufacturer to promote users buying any hardware wallet.

if a paper wallet requires an airgaped PC, a printer. .. its not a paper wallet
a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.

andrea's scare tactics using "bitnotes" which require airgapped computer and printer. still doesnt shake me with fear of my paper and pen "paperwallet" nor does his scare tactic inspire me to buy a hardware wallet.

though a hardware wallet is secure in regards to the privkey. by having them only display a gui via a webbrowser extension app, or a app you download from things like trezor.ioa dds an element of risk. EG trojans/browser plug-ins/extensions that can replace browser text fields 'payment address' with a scammers address.

heck. someone can hack the trezor site and replace the 'trezor suite web app' with a hacked web extension. and thus the hacked extension can write its own transactions but display a false transaction it wants the user to see

so a hardware wallet still has the same risk when it comes time to spend value, and also just checking for balance updates(new confirmed transactions)

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 06, 2022, 04:13:29 PM

Like I mentioned previously, he seems to be catering for the masses by using a blanket statement for the less technically minded which to be honest isn't a bad idea at all. I wish he was a little more clear that paper wallets aren't exactly a bad idea, and are just as secure, and maybe even more secure in certain instances, but does require some sort of proficiency, and understanding to secure well. Whereas, most hardware wallets protect from the common pitfalls, and are easier, while being decently secure to just plug, and play.

Obviously, there's still things that can go wrong, but I get the idea hes trying to push out there. Its time we start looking for as much adoption as possible, and making Bitcoin less complex, and therefore more accessible to the general user is how we would go about achieving that.

Quote from: Welsh on January 07, 2022, 01:23:47 PM

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 06, 2022, 04:13:29 PM

You bring up a good point about security. Properly stored and protected paper wallets are about as secure as you can get, and paper is among the best media for archival purposes. Andreas kind of glossed over the methods for storing seeds, yet for the masses, paper is one of the more practical methods of doing so. Most people won't have access to, or skills to use fancy equipment to make steel backups, and the steel products to store seeds can often be prohibitively expensive for many.

As for single private-keys that are printed out for storage or use of bitcoin, I tend to agree with him that there are better options. Personally I find single keys to be the best method of giving bitcoin as a gift in physical form, whether just a piece of paper or a DIY coin. I'll still be using them for those purposes from time to time.

Quote from: buwaytress on January 05, 2022, 01:08:39 PM

Same thing with me. The first detailed article/book or whatever you want to call in that I ever read was Andreas's Mastering Bitcoin book. Now at the time I didn't realize that it was really geared towards coders, but there was still enough in there to learn a good amount about bitcoin. I hold Andreas in a really high regard, but of late I've started to kind of question the way he approaches certain topics. He did a very poor job here explaining paper wallets and the difference between them and hardware. He should have been much more specific.

Quote from: mindrust on January 06, 2022, 06:19:05 AM

He probably means those famous paper wallet generating websites. If you make your own paper wallets yourself using a trusted wallet like electrum or core, I don't think there is any harm doing so. A paper wallet is just a paper which keeps your private keys and nothing else. You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet. That's how I imagine a paper wallet whenever I hear it.

It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.

It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites. For the record, even legit websites like bitaddress.org are not safe to generate private keys on, because the HTML can be manipulated by an Inspect Element or something like that.

Electrum and Core are too complicated for just generating a paper wallet, for newbies.

Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve - already rat-proof, not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that - and, unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed. Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.

Quote from: NotATether on January 07, 2022, 03:58:46 PM

I already don't like the word "install": it should work from a Live Linux CD. But even if someone would create it, there's a lot of trust required to boot your computer with that CD and trust the software to do what it says.

Quote from: NotATether on January 07, 2022, 03:58:46 PM

Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve

According to this website (https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/longevity-recordable-cds-dvds.html), CD-Rs last anywhere from 5 to >100 years. I wouldn't risk my funds on them.

Quote

not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that

A laminator is much cheaper and much better against water than a safe.

Quote

unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed.

How is shredding a CD-R easier than just burning a piece of paper?

Quote

Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.

CD shredders are more expensive than paper shredders.

Please fasten your flame retardant suit, because I'm going to have to nitpick your statements here:

Quote from: NotATether on January 07, 2022, 03:58:46 PM

If someone wanted a single key Electrum would probably be the easiest tool to use, there's no reason not to. The Ian Coleman tool can be used as well, and allows you to enter your own entropy. There's no reason not to use an HD wallet to extract a single key.

Quote from: NotATether on January 07, 2022, 03:58:46 PM

Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve - already rat-proof, not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that - and, unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed. Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.

Again, I beg to differ. When properly stored paper can survive for thousands of years, and there's plenty of proof (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_documents) of that. The archival resilience of CDs, on the other hand is only theoretical, and CDs require equipment that is slowly going obsolete. Even if they don't go away all together, their use will diminish to the point that the equipment to read them will become somewhat expensive.

As for destroying the unneeded used keys, once it's served it's usefulness paper is easily destroyed with nothing more expensive than a match. I could probably snap a CD into a few pieces with my bare hands, but I don't think my mother could. She would certainly need a $5 wrench. :P

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 07, 2022, 12:27:14 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 06, 2022, 06:10:05 AM

Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated.

Technical knowledge, or having none of it is not the debate is all about. It was the feasibility, and security of the method of digital back ups of keys generated from air-gapped computer hardware.

Plus it can be debated that HODLers, newbies or not, of self-sovereign money SHOULD learn many of the technical methods to store their wealth securely.

Quote

Meanwhile, a piece of paper is a piece of paper. There is no middle ground and no room to compromise. It is always offline.

My USB back ups are always offline too.

Quote

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 07, 2022, 10:52:41 AM

I respect him, but tin-foil hats on, he will. 8)

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 07, 2022, 03:33:01 PM

Most people won't have access to, or skills to use fancy equipment to make steel backups, and the steel products to store seeds can often be prohibitively expensive for many.

I've said multiple times before that all my paper wallets and paper back ups are on paper and I generally don't use steel or metal back ups. Yes, paper is cheaper, easier to work with, etc., but the main reason is this: I have redundancy. You should never have a single back up of anything, particularly not your seed phrase or bitcoin wallets. A minimum of two back ups in two separate locations is necessary. Now, what are the chances that a paper wallet in my house is destroyed in a fire and a duplicate paper wallet stored in safe deposit box at a bank in another city is also destroyed at the same time? Vanishingly small.

If you like metal back ups, then use them, and I accept they have some significant advantages over paper. But metal back ups are still not 100% guaranteed to be readable or even still be there when you come back to them. Two separate paper back ups is more secure than a single metal back up.

Quote from: NotATether on January 07, 2022, 03:58:46 PM

It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.

There is this tool from user Coding Enthusiast which will turn coin flipping entropy in to a seed phrase or private key: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5373505.0. It doesn't go as far as generating addresses, though.

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 07, 2022, 08:57:33 PM

I could probably snap a CD into a few pieces with my bare hands, but I don't think my mother could. She would certainly need a $5 wrench.

I would not be happy with one or two large snaps across a CD to know for sure that data could not be recovered from that CD. If you don't have a shredder, I'd be taking a blowtorch to it.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 07, 2022, 12:27:14 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 07, 2022, 10:52:41 AM

It didn't sound like shilling to me, but in the video linked by ChiBitCTy in the OP when Andreas suggested hardware wallets he did mention Cold Card by name. He was commenting that the Cold Card allows one to enter his own entropy when generating a seed. Again, it didn't sound like shilling, more like commenting that a particular hardware wallet offers a fairly unique feature.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 08, 2022, 08:44:27 AM

I'd be taking a blowtorch to it.

"There are very few problems in this world that can't be solved with a gallon of diesel and a match."
- "Burner" (a retired Navy Seal I used to know.)

Quote from: n0nce on January 08, 2022, 02:02:53 PM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 08, 2022, 08:44:27 AM

If you like metal back ups, then use them, and I accept they have some significant advantages over paper. But metal back ups are still not 100% guaranteed to be readable or even still be there when you come back to them. Two separate paper back ups is more secure than a single metal back up.

How about 2 metal backups? :D
I reckon the only advantage of paper vs metal is that it's cheaper, so you can make more of them. But 2 backups should suffice for most scenarios and the biggest investment is the letter stamps which you only need to buy once. I think you can do 2 washer backups (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5363596.0) for around 5€ / $5 with a 24-pack of washers (stamp a word on each side, so 12 washers per backup for 24 word seeds), two screws and two nuts.

Steel will make good backups, but not all steel washers are the same, you still need to chose the right materials. Washers, nuts, and bolts better be stainless (which is a bit more expensive) if you want them to survive fire or flooding. Galvanized (zinc) or other coatings (tin, nickel) often found on washers will melt long before the steel does in a house fire, and could fill all your stampings making them illegible. If your backups are exposed to caustic compounds during a flood, the coatings on your washers could corrode or oxidize, again leaving you with illegible stampings. Steel isn't the panacea that some want to make it, and could lead many to a false sense of security.

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 07, 2022, 08:57:33 PM

I can't really trust the Ian Coleman tool anymore, there are way too many fake copies hovering around google search. (I once had a scare when the iancoleman.io website had a bunch of misspellings/mispronunciations in the title, making me think that it was compromised).

Sure, electrum might be the easiest tool that currently exists for obtaining a single key. But is it more efficient than, say, bitaddress or iancoleman? At those places, all you have to do is click on a Generate button - no wallet creation is required.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 07, 2022, 06:13:39 PM

Quote

unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed.

How is shredding a CD-R easier than just burning a piece of paper?

Quote

CD shredders are more expensive than paper shredders.

I was thinking more in line of just smashing the CD-R like Direwolf. No words on whether the result is recoverable, as the disk sectors run circularly around the disk.

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on January 08, 2022, 04:37:18 PM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 07, 2022, 12:27:14 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 07, 2022, 10:52:41 AM

He is truly that good in the art of shilling, without shilling. It’s like Joe Rogan, he finds his opportunities in his show to talk about the products he shills without shilling them, making the shill look more authentic, natural, and believable. 8)

Quote from: n0nce on January 08, 2022, 02:02:53 PM

How about 2 metal backups?

Certainly preferable to one metal back up.

Here's another thing to think about, though: Let's think of some of the things that steel protects against which paper won't - catastrophic fires, corrosion, etc. If my house has suffered some kind of devastating fire or explosion, or is now underwater, or has somehow had gallons of a corrosive substance dumped on to it, which of the following is more likely? I spend potentially days manually sifting through rubble and debris looking for my back up, or I simply go and retrieve my second back up? I might not even be allowed to enter the area due to safety concerns, or indeed able to enter the area if there is severe flooding, for example. Hell, maybe I want my back up to be destroyed so it doesn't wash up on a street somewhere for someone else to find or be found by a first responder.

It's all about your individual threat model, but multiple paper back ups work just fine.

Quote from: NotATether on January 09, 2022, 04:19:09 AM

I can't really trust the Ian Coleman tool anymore, there are way too many fake copies hovering around google search.

Don't use Google is the first step here, since it allows scammers to pay to boost their sites to the the top of your search results. But also, download it from GitHub and verify it against the hashes provided which are signed with Ian Coleman's PGP key.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 09, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: n0nce on January 08, 2022, 02:02:53 PM

How about 2 metal backups?

Quote from: NotATether on January 09, 2022, 04:19:09 AM

I can't really trust the Ian Coleman tool anymore, there are way too many fake copies hovering around google search.

Don't use Google is the first step here, since it allows scammers to pay to boost their sites to the the top of your search results. But also, download it from GitHub and verify it against the hashes provided which are signed with Ian Coleman's PGP key.

THAT’s another one of those basic technical things that Bitcoin users/plebs like me are REQUIRED to learn, or lose your coins, and learn the hard way. The likelihood of getting hacked might be small, but not learning the technical “inconveniences” will make attack vectors against you bigger.

Quote from: remotemass on January 09, 2022, 04:44:14 AM

There is at least one use case where I would consider using them: to explain to others about bitcoin key-pairs.

I have never used a paper wallet before but I read about HD wallets, keys and addresses to understand all these. If someone wants to know more about bitcoin, this can be explained in HD wallets because the child private keys and child public keys are paired with the addresses, while the child private key can be used as backup.

As for me, it depends, but I would not recommend paper wallet generated on sites especially for newbies as a result of mnemonic or seed phrase which are just words and easy to backup if using HD wallet like Electrum.

If HD wallet can be used as a paper wallet by generating the seed phrase, keys and addresses offline on a secure and safe offline device while the seed phrase is properly backup in different locations safe from attackers and damages. I prefer this method which has been what I am using and very safe.

Quote from: NotATether on January 09, 2022, 04:19:09 AM

Sure, electrum might be the easiest tool that currently exists for obtaining a single key. But is it more efficient than, say, bitaddress or iancoleman? At those places, all you have to do is click on a Generate button - no wallet creation is required.

All that is required is for people to know how to safely generate a single key wallet, multiple individual single keys can be generated on Electrum with their corresponding addresses but BIP38 encryption is not possible using Electrum if that option is needed. In my opinion, I see all methods to be very easy for a technical person that knows about it very well if not making any mistake.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 04, 2022, 08:05:36 AM

Quote from: Hispo on January 04, 2022, 05:24:22 AM

-snip-

Right, as I said it is just my personal opinion and I still believe paper wallets are okey for users who know what they are doing.
If we think a bit about it, we could say HW are paper wallets with an easier way to spend/send funds.

As you say, the important part of cold storage is the backup of the seeds, with that taken care of, most of the cons of any method are quite covered.

Quote from: Hispo on January 17, 2022, 12:42:55 AM

Right, as I said it is just my personal opinion and I still believe paper wallets are okey for users who know what they are doing.

In term of security and safety, paper wallet is good. But what I am wondering is that if a new invention can give same security and safety but in an easier way by getting seed words instead of characters and numbers and in a way more addresses can be generated, why then not following the new invention. If known how paper wallet works and knowing the security risks, paper wallet still remain one of the safetest wallets. But just that it will not be hard for me to generate such wallet (but HD) using Electrum on airgapped device or even hardware wallet in a way to use it as a paper wallet by the seed phrase backup after I total delete the wallet.

Quote from: Hispo on January 17, 2022, 12:42:55 AM

If we think a bit about it, we could say HW are paper wallets with an easier way to spend/send funds.

No. There is so much difference between hardware wallet and paper wallet. There make up is also very different, paper wallets are not hierarchical deterministic (HD) wallet.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on January 17, 2022, 07:52:43 AM

what I am wondering is that if a new invention can give same security and safety but in an easier way by getting seed words instead of characters and numbers and in a way more addresses can be generated
~
it will not be hard for me to generate such wallet (but HD) using Electrum on airgapped device

It looks like you've answered your own question: there's no need for a new "invention" if you can do this already without having to trust new software.
It's trivially easy to create a new wallet seed in Electrum from an offline Tails OS (https://tails.boum.org/), and export 30 (or more) addresses with their private keys:

Code:

dizzy fury already cancel spread hedgehog excuse pottery cancel obey once tragic

bc1qrs6m7lqukmzxy4f2m8l242qz4yjw7jxtyddlg0	p2wpkh:KxJvBoFEQtisxtd8gjzSrjzaK65SW1ZXjfgg9ZxcDSFts1QPWuzc
bc1qu00ldg2fm3wppnjsezk602rmqzdtulhajfgv2u	p2wpkh:L3WirufaQxUcDYS5CYxXAHepYBRPjuiBATjUGCk7NPUQfH9RqoXG
bc1qy5fjgc55clqsja2nwnadgy5gx7u7pk43l2t3tn	p2wpkh:L5ZjfbiLTRqPsz2zMso2KRYCrPYbXqzVVuNjFSxDsRNnYZTw6hWQ
bc1qkekrcyxh09mqer0r3znq7phl0m4mv2xh2sslgp	p2wpkh:KyJ1pazKKzUBGTgX29gxFMgr5R6ZmEvyn6Q5UETAxydCgweUYQnk
bc1qqhy7ghvkchkwp7y8pmzlfv43ux662gmkugwecl	p2wpkh:L3vo9fGsBQoko9dPMMmf8AsyP94YvkQifrrFB1bG8FM74agNhKbN
bc1qm39hpxqdlp6srz3z8pc8v5drhe2xj87uqzccul	p2wpkh:Kz4vtikgeWPYp2oZ9kX7NHpgwEBribi19si8ad1KoEMEF5VDtG3N
bc1q4dgar73pzusj0lwpagz3dltacf7kat34w4v4z6	p2wpkh:Kyv84U61MxBzZUcUeje1chMT4DcJyFit9mTKof9JaahZSFU1knMG
bc1q8x2xzsn2tuknkgrjxq7mt226xlmhu52hnfq640	p2wpkh:KzBRHAbUjQQ2AbiFC5WWd7D1uqkG8W81dxyD8Wdufa73CEcQ6Dmm
bc1qewlg9ur40vtfavmdnsqhfcz8fn4qrhja4kh4ky	p2wpkh:KyqPSdtzG7KFbQuD3eZdyfMbJfGNFwi6yFFrWsDBrLEvcyvMDq86
bc1q4m6yek3eamhqyq8mknl9hdc3xjxs34rkrr63wg	p2wpkh:L5YFmWr16ne9NQdB33qP9aRmyFB97HPg4XzrkfTY7e1DwBDQDNGJ
bc1qfmur9mnsyld4kdfezsl4gyw34zvaj2r5j9dz2k	p2wpkh:KzXfvc5tpkBBJhTjeRWJ1TXLZSSxxBNu5jkP8wLfHgMs5vCEvrCo
bc1q3rxy3f4r25tayswryg2dfpy68j6amrf3z4pn0e	p2wpkh:KzoM9RKZhgpDeSmqFYbYQfFxD5mShion4SiX3G7mw29Z6yWwz29n
bc1q32tsv8pawjrz5mkpy485dyv7lmrhcnfnep5ygx	p2wpkh:KxuoJXREgT7AJkJXBHbcbiW4RyY4HrPx9B2nMrcqkVK7wVj4MTE6
bc1qr65vu0kpjvctjcg3ml8wct6f78lxakr5hnq6ls	p2wpkh:KzkmAgncgSaUoNrYxV2FheDw2TdJxEhg7HdW4UN8U2g4Jb2mTy2X
bc1qml9v6emx9yunsjltuc8ejcyg6chmuwgqlzwmmw	p2wpkh:L3SVrP2DRBoXyF72dsdYVnrrpXdhhJQc4obAJLAwVjxmD1ATcivP
bc1qhyep3ygvz5gfd4cnrvmen6p646ac48wdcfcy27	p2wpkh:L29FUDkFVZNZ5S52UZtt7EH8H8o8cCdf6QVrUmb9ZvPq6C7pZ2SK
bc1q86gyzn3mlaxnafyjah3up7c6x4nu0p5gdfusdy	p2wpkh:Kxjedvp3G5vL8MkmcngF4CY9vbDtKYbCRnHRJMPNpSarmCPYVmzH
bc1qyg4vp9a58w30qxamvjuvhcggjhgme6mzeywlj7	p2wpkh:L3SRSoAZJ28tuQTmqvNDrseHR86QXWsDRqXWu1TJqt7qHJodhUaY
bc1q07s79qw9g6tt9w7medrmls7dlzrpy8sapn09tl	p2wpkh:KwHPc8odkyJaBwoua3FqbBbZubamr5g9xbWfEyt4Vgo2kbkzockJ
bc1qfwhzl4ua37yd2ea3ft0swzdx4r253fuwh0cyxv	p2wpkh:KwfyE1RKn6jgdbLF94GHquYtFqhKzH1c49SsyBuqWqbvyp6X57KN
bc1q8wjam35pnpsx7stt587kc6k5fm7nlp5f8lthfy	p2wpkh:KxNx6cSK71hXt7rgTxhZwpRFtrpixAixY6XZEXcBBvZ99WkkXUfH
bc1q2aqc6rln4ujhgwjghyc2490htd2xx0lja4rxk9	p2wpkh:KzPZWj7PCFr3XNFhmgbxcvDaydAoGPRctnFdsReRnksNzHvUBiyf
bc1q59mmf5ex9auvwpw4nxhj6jnsl6dx57328ktp2j	p2wpkh:L39cU7GGfBCJxbVihePuShRScUFCohezUAxQsVtH4H1MSRPZ9u4R
bc1qgdg5rrekr8kcx3p0ptzvadldq4ln8ytalqrh5v	p2wpkh:Ky3iZKCm5VuPMwB24TTFJP6jpdeiMobrcZTeStUguLayYu659tUT
bc1q0tcvr0p3g4dsahhat8qs457h4qntynsmnk9d3t	p2wpkh:Kz3xKSvUzDDhGWJTcTS2Me5gM5S3LS9gCjsCvHCVNrAhWTmxWBiF
bc1qazepknw6njhgppv3haxtcfdnfc90v32jxr9tjy	p2wpkh:KxtL9cX3RL7wvZGSTTPLSFdvn8fY2YKyUtMpmxfU6kRc57G51Bzn
bc1qk42p2cx8easuf34tjaf8tgsfn5p67ms3dtummn	p2wpkh:L3SYpp2Ak2ooWEvWJZc5z79jGdGABQWAwNsYfea3w3gdTEbstByj
bc1qzgttzfsp4haz4nczn0sv7e27gmspj607t4z532	p2wpkh:L15vsQ2dQrtwCNZDzSfjpR3A4shpVwqEYhSRYpWjey9rff8wadEL
bc1qchrlru5pach7r0qpa7uyxq2uyl06enx34rg0wd	p2wpkh:Kwbn6ekMPeAce5RGLHiE3jtopE8PgdfesHgq63mvJqtrg1AkCMop
bc1qzkmc9d06976s9kncwj9xezc5rwylclxayp9c0c	p2wpkh:L4S13ELGzLa6D1jFQYxcZPp9NQCYaMDSuJ8gudkcSU9rLsMfXbEV

Print it and you have a paper wallet for which you only really need the first 12 words. Getting your printer to work may very well be the hardest part.
You can create QR-codes too, although I'm not sure if Tails comes with pre-installed software.

Disclaimer for really dumb people: don't use the addresses above :P

Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2022, 08:06:09 AM