Andreas Antonopoulos says to stop using paper wallets, do you agree?

[buwaytress]

Been a while since I watched his recent stuff, long time admirer here, but didn't know he'd be pushing a hardware wallet -- never mind that.

I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.

But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.

Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.

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[vapourminer]

I see quite often how beginners who did a bit of googling decided that paper wallet is the safest option and plan to create one of those "print out your private key" wallet types from the early days. I completely agree that they are outdated because writing down your seed is better in everything. It doesn't require you to have a trusted printer, because you can write it with pen and paper, it doesn't have a problem with change addresses, it's a bit more resilient to damage, it's much more convenient for sending BTC.

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

seeds are better now but i used straight up paper wallets back in the day and as long as you know what you were doing they work.

that being said i had an awful few minutes once when i swept a paper wallet wrong and almost donated the change to the miners. luckily the change went back to the original addy in my case. but it sucked waiting lol

[LoyceV]

that being said i had an awful few minutes once when i swept a paper wallet wrong and almost donated the change to the miners. luckily the change went back to the original addy in my case. but it sucked waiting lol

After offline signing, I always verify the raw transaction (on a different device) before broadcasting. Being paranoid works

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.

In another video, he answered when someone asked him what is a best wallet. He answered that the best wallet depends on each person and at different time. A good wallet today can be worse than others in future. I think his answer is solid. Paper wallet is good, hardware wallet is good and depends on each person, with different budget and knowledge to use it.

Bitcoin Q&A: How Do I Choose a Wallet?

But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.

I think it is main objectives of his Youtube channel.

[dkbit98]

I was about to say: whether paper or hardware - you're always gonna have a paper or steel backup anyway; so hiding / protecting a seed always needs to be done, no matter which method you use.

This is true, but you would be surprised how many (dumb) people don't have backup phrase on paper, and they ae only depending on hardware wallet device to keep everything.
Difference is that you are writing backup yourself with your own hand or metal tools, and for paper wallet printer is doing all the work.

Actually, one scenario comes to mind where the person has a backed-up hardware wallet without ever writing it on paper / exposing it to potential spy cameras or anything like that. That's with a device like the Foundation Passport. It allows you to insert a microSD card, back the device up to the card and even do it to multiple cards.

Physical backup on paper/metal is almost always better than any using digital backup like microSD cards even if they are encrypted, but it's not a bad idea to have multiple options in case one of them fails.
I think that Coldcard and Bitbox02 hardware wallets are doing something similar like Passport with SD card backup.

The idea about SeedSigner is not mainly for creating paper wallets (in my opinion) but allowing you to also sign transactions (hence the name) while keeping the wallet / seed itself actually offline. It has a camera which can temporarily import the seed through QR code into RAM so it's wiped when power is plugged.

Seedsigner is a nice idea, but problem is that Raspberry Pi Zero and all components for making is hard to find know because of supply chain issue, or it's more expensive to buy.

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also 

[n0nce]

Actually, one scenario comes to mind where the person has a backed-up hardware wallet without ever writing it on paper / exposing it to potential spy cameras or anything like that. That's with a device like the Foundation Passport. It allows you to insert a microSD card, back the device up to the card and even do it to multiple cards.

Physical backup on paper/metal is almost always better than any using digital backup like microSD cards even if they are encrypted, but it's not a bad idea to have multiple options in case one of them fails.
I think that Coldcard and Bitbox02 hardware wallets are doing something similar like Passport with SD card backup.

I agree; paper is better than an SD card, since in laminated condition it can withstand humidity and heat without issues, also magnetic fields and stuff like that, while an SD card is an electronic device, so it has more potential to fail. I find it cheaper and even more durable to backup with steel washers though, than buying a laminating machine if you don't have one already. Not sure if those no-heat laminating kits are any good though.

The Coldcard and both BitBox 01 and 02 allow for SD card backups as well.
I reckon it's still much better than no backup at all (for anyone too lazy to write 12 words on a piece of paper and maybe laminating it).

The idea about SeedSigner is not mainly for creating paper wallets (in my opinion) but allowing you to also sign transactions (hence the name) while keeping the wallet / seed itself actually offline. It has a camera which can temporarily import the seed through QR code into RAM so it's wiped when power is plugged.

Seedsigner is a nice idea, but problem is that Raspberry Pi Zero and all components for making is hard to find know because of supply chain issue, or it's more expensive to buy.

That's a pity, I didn't know RaspberryPi people are also affected. Maybe just need to wait for restocks? Even before the global supply chain issues in the last years, they ran out of stock from time to time, since they had kind of fixed (I think two-weekly) reshipments.

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also 

To be honest, I don't think this is a fair comparison. I wouldn't classify a hardware wallet as a 'newer, better successor', but rather a 'new, but different' type of seed storage, parallel to the purely paper-based storage format.
Even to the point where pure long-term storage isn't safer using a hardware wallet at all, since you'll end up with a paper backup anyway, which is susceptible to the same risks that a pure paper wallet would be. You're adding tech, but still keeping the seed on paper, so for pure storage there's no 'improvement' unlike car vs horse.
I would argue that it's more convenient and safer (less room for mistakes) to spend coins when kept on a hardware wallet though, and also that the seed generation is safer for most people when they use a hardware wallet.

[LoyceV]

thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works

Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also  

To be honest, I don't think this is a fair comparison.

While we're on the analogy of transportation, I'll add mine: paper wallets are like walking. It worked thousands of years ago, and it will work thousands of years from now. Even though there are risks involved, and even though there are much more modern and faster systems available, walking is the one thing that will always be around while many of the much newer systems (like stagecoaches) have long disappeared.

[Wind_FURY]

Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.

I don't understand. Could you explain why the existence of encrypted digital keys should make you feel more secure and comfortable especially considering the fact that they are practically useless without the secret key that is required to decrypt them? The problem with the decryption key is that you can't make it encrypted because it is pointless from a security perspective, you also don't want it on digital media because that only increases an attack surface. In short, having created more digital copies of your keys, you also must keep more physical copies of your keys to access your digital ones. The more backups you create, the more likely you will lose access to one of them, which may result in losses.

We’re talking about a paper wallet generated in an air-gapped computer. Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated. To back up your private keys, print them, write them down, or copy them in a text file stored in USB, then encrypt them in case someone finds/steals the USB.

[mindrust]

He probably means those famous paper wallet generating websites. If you make your own paper wallets yourself using a trusted wallet like electrum or core, I don't think there is any harm doing so. A paper wallet is just a paper which keeps your private keys and nothing else. You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet. That's how I imagine a paper wallet whenever I hear it.

[LoyceV]

You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet.

Writing down private keys is prone to mistakes. I've seen people lose their funds because they can't decipher their own handwriting.

[DireWolfM14]

I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper.  He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.  

I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however.  Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases.  Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.

[DeathAngel]

I’ve only ever used paper wallets in 2014 & 2015 when I was a newbie. I don’t use them now & don’t plan to ever again. Just stick with Trezor & you won’t go far wrong. They have a long history of good service & impenetrable security.

[Wind_FURY]

I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper.  He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.  

I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however.  Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases.  Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.

Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated.

The issue here is that having a completely air-gapped device is not necessarily a straightforward thing to achieve. There is a degree of technical knowledge required and should really require the physical removal of hardware. Many people don't do this though, and simply turn off their WiFi or Bluetooth, which isn't really airgapped but many people think it is. You should format the device and install a brand new clean and verified open source OS, but again, many people just use Windows and some don't even format it at all. There is a risk that you accidentally re-enable some piece of connectivity in the future and completely ruin your airgap.

Meanwhile, a piece of paper is a piece of paper. There is no middle ground and no room to compromise. It is always offline.

Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.

Genuine question: Has he ever recommended a specific brand of hardware wallet? I'm not aware that he has, and if not, then it would be an incredibly ineffective campaign for any specific hardware wallet manufacturer to promote users buying any hardware wallet.

[franky1]

if a paper wallet requires an airgaped PC, a printer. .. its not a paper wallet
a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.

andrea's scare tactics using "bitnotes" which require airgapped computer and printer. still doesnt shake me with fear of my paper and pen "paperwallet" nor does his scare tactic inspire me to buy a hardware wallet.

though a hardware wallet is secure in regards to the privkey. by having them only display a gui via a webbrowser extension app, or a app you download from things like trezor.ioa dds an element of risk. EG trojans/browser plug-ins/extensions that can replace browser text fields 'payment address' with a scammers address.

heck. someone can hack the trezor site and replace the 'trezor suite web app' with a hacked web extension. and thus the hacked extension can write its own transactions but display a false transaction it wants the user to see

so a hardware wallet still has the same risk when it comes time to spend value, and also just checking for balance updates(new confirmed transactions)

[LoyceV]

if a paper wallet requires an airgaped PC, a printer. .. its not a paper wallet
a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.

Creating a random private key (flipping coins) is easy, but how do you get a Bitcoin address without using a PC?

heck. someone can hack the trezor site and replace the 'trezor suite web app' with a hacked web extension. and thus the hacked extension can write its own transactions but display a false transaction it wants the user to see

You're not supposed to trust the transaction on your web extension, but instead you verify the transaction on the hardware wallet's display.

[Welsh]

I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper.  He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.  

I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however.  Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases.  Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.

Like I mentioned previously, he seems to be catering for the masses by using a blanket statement for the less technically minded which to be honest isn't a bad idea at all. I wish he was a little more clear that paper wallets aren't exactly a bad idea, and are just as secure, and maybe even more secure in certain instances, but does require some sort of proficiency, and understanding to secure well. Whereas, most hardware wallets protect from the common pitfalls, and are easier, while being decently secure to just plug, and play.

Obviously, there's still things that can go wrong, but I get the idea hes trying to push out there. Its time we start looking for as much adoption as possible, and making Bitcoin less complex, and therefore more accessible to the general user is how we would go about achieving that.

[DireWolfM14]

I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper.  He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.  

I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however.  Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases.  Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.

Like I mentioned previously, he seems to be catering for the masses by using a blanket statement for the less technically minded which to be honest isn't a bad idea at all. I wish he was a little more clear that paper wallets aren't exactly a bad idea, and are just as secure, and maybe even more secure in certain instances, but does require some sort of proficiency, and understanding to secure well. Whereas, most hardware wallets protect from the common pitfalls, and are easier, while being decently secure to just plug, and play.

Obviously, there's still things that can go wrong, but I get the idea hes trying to push out there. Its time we start looking for as much adoption as possible, and making Bitcoin less complex, and therefore more accessible to the general user is how we would go about achieving that.

You bring up a good point about security.  Properly stored and protected paper wallets are about as secure as you can get, and paper is among the best media for archival purposes.  Andreas kind of glossed over the methods for storing seeds, yet for the masses, paper is one of the more practical methods of doing so.  Most people won't have access to, or skills to use fancy equipment to make steel backups, and the steel products to store seeds can often be prohibitively expensive for many.

As for single private-keys that are printed out for storage or use of bitcoin, I tend to agree with him that there are better options.  Personally I find single keys to be the best method of giving bitcoin as a gift in physical form, whether just a piece of paper or a DIY coin.  I'll still be using them for those purposes from time to time.

[ChiBitCTy]

Been a while since I watched his recent stuff, long time admirer here, but didn't know he'd be pushing a hardware wallet -- never mind that.

I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.

But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.

Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.

Same thing with me.  The first detailed article/book or whatever you want to call in that I ever read was Andreas's Mastering Bitcoin book.  Now at the time I didn't realize that it was really geared towards coders, but there was still enough in there to learn a good amount about bitcoin.  I hold Andreas in a really high regard, but of late I've started to kind of question the way he approaches certain topics.  He did a very poor job here explaining paper wallets and the difference between them and hardware.  He should have been much more specific.

[NotATether]

He probably means those famous paper wallet generating websites. If you make your own paper wallets yourself using a trusted wallet like electrum or core, I don't think there is any harm doing so. A paper wallet is just a paper which keeps your private keys and nothing else. You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet. That's how I imagine a paper wallet whenever I hear it.

It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.

It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites. For the record, even legit websites like bitaddress.org are not safe to generate private keys on, because the HTML can be manipulated by an Inspect Element or something like that.

Electrum and Core are too complicated for just generating a paper wallet, for newbies.

Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve - already rat-proof, not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that - and, unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed. Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.