Bitcoin Forum

First some short explanation, and then the questions.

If I bought stocks, bonds or fiat currencies I hold securities by which those who put them on the market, have the liability to me. Stocks are put on the market by companies. Bonds by corporations and governments. Fiat currencies by banking system and borrowers. By putting their securities on the market, the said entities essentially borrowed capital from the market, which is why they have the liability to return it back. This happens when they withdraw securities from the market. So if I am a market participant holding their securities, the capital is returned to me when companies buyback stocks or liquidate the business, when corporations or governments pay me bond's face value, and when the banking system and borrowers sell me the seized collaterals or goods, services or labour to get currency units for liquidating the issued loans. Numbers in this case only represent the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is not a security. Its issuer/issuers have no liability to withdraw bitcoins from the market, and in the process, return the capital to bitcoin holders. So if I hold bitcoin, I basically hold number for being number. I hold a product similar to gold, a picture, wheat or crude oil. People buy these products for what they are, for their intrinsic value. And unlike with securities, once people bought them, no entity has the liability to buy them back in the future. So, the only way people can benefit from them is by utilizing their intrinsic value. But, here a crucial problem arises regarding bitcoin.

Gold I can utilize for jewelry, electronics, dentistry and so on, a picture for pleasing my aesthetic senses, wheat for making all sorts of foods, crude oil for manufacturing everything from plastic to petroleum. Besides, a single unit of these products is pretty cheap. However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, and shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number. To watch it like a picture is watched. When I sell bitcoin to other people, the new holders can also just watch a number on the screen. So, essentially no human being on Earth is capable to do anything after purchasing bitcoin, but to watch a number. Obviously, watching a number is not as aesthetically pleasing as watching a picture of a beautiful girl or a sunset.

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

Looking at some of your previous threads ( "Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People", "Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino" and "Bitcoin Exists Only in Satoshi's Imagination" ), you are not potential bitcoin buyer, so no point really getting into any sort of argument with you, your mind is set. Or to quote Satoshi, "If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry."

Sure I am a potential buyer. But only if someone providers a rational answer to my questions.

That what you're talking about is not utilizing but trading. Everything can be traded. The question is why would one pay an enormous amount of money for a single unit of a product that has an extremely low utilization capacity?

Ah, the classic unit bias problem that has been talked about thousands of times now. This is why I'm an advocate for using lower denominations like sats — to get the newbs away from the likes of XRP and get in on bitcoin.

It's like saying: "why buy a 1kg gold bar if it's only 1 gold bar?"

Because gold is a boomer asset and has performed bad throughout the years, a sunset picture is highly illiquid, crude oil has a very unknown supply inflation(like gold), etc etc. But hey, if you want to invest in these stuff, then go for it!

"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry." - Someone someone.

If you would want to read a little more, you'd know that gold's utility cannot explain its high price. Its price is derived from scarcity and hoarding, not so much from its utility.
Just go and ask your government why is your country keeping (hoarding) gold. Is it for its electric properties, is it that they want to make jewelry, or it's because it's scarce?

But you don't care about this, since your aim is to... I don't know, troll, or scare newbies, or something like this.

Ah, and that is your problem right there:  "so low a utilization capacity".

You can't see its utilizations, for some reason unknown to us,  or you don't seem to have the capacity to see the capacities within bitcoin.  And for this reason alone you may never accept any price for a bitcoin, let alone 40k, 50k, etc.  A simple deduction.

The rest of us see many reasons, utilizations of bitcoin, and so it is easy for us to see that a price of $37,000 is not all that much.

Bullshit. There is no answer that will satisfy you, even if Satoshi himself comes here and answers all your questions. As I said, your mind is set and it giving any sort of pro bitcoin argument would be a total waste of time.

a pretty good choice, because there are indeed some things we need to do and we avoid.
when asking questions and explaining anything related to bitcoin it would be great but with a note to those who really want to know and at least have thoughts of buying.
but explaining to people who don't like all forms of bitcoin even if an explanation is done logically and uses data and facts it will only be in vain because they certainly will not accept it

There are thousands of posts on this forum that can answer all your questions, so the only question is do you want to invest your time in learning something about Bitcoin or will you spend your whole life looking for rational answers to why you should invest in Bitcoin or not? People like you find it hard or almost impossible to explain why Bitcoin has value for me and some other people, and for you it's just number 1 worth $37 000 which you compare to a picture of a sunset that is really worth a few $ because any child can paint that on a piece of paper with an ordinary pencil.

You do not take into account the uniqueness, cryptography technology, proof of work, decentralization and everything that makes Bitcoin valuable in the eyes of every investor. I won't tell you to invest in Bitcoin, I'm not a financial expert and I don't want to play with anyone's money, but I can give you free advice - take paper and colored pencils, draw a sunset and save yourself a few dollars, and then try to sell that same drawing for $37 000. If you succeed in this, you will understand why Bitcoin has value ;)

The problem with you is that you do not want to buy bitcoins and therefore find a way to satisfy your mind with lame excuses. After buying bitcoin, you can watch that your wealth will grow as the bitcoin price increases over time. Buying any other commodity or assets will not benefit you as much as bitcoin.
Better you go and watch your girlfriend and stop wasting your time on this forum.

You don't have to bother looking for difficult answers, because the point is to look at the usefulness of an item and the value it contains over time. If you own 1 Bitcoin today with a goal of 10 years into the future, it's not only a huge benefit but rather a part of maintaining sustainable adoption. But would you be interested if you really don't have the taste and intention to know the aesthetic value and advantages of Bitcoin.

You are now just describing things. I know what gold, a picture or crude oil is. What I am asking is this. One ounce of gold, in jewelry for e.g., or watching a sunset picture, has much higher utility value than watching number "1" on the screen of a mobile phone. Because that's all the utility you get after purchasing bitcoin - you are able to watch a number on the screen. Yet, one has to pay $37,000 to for this. And only $1,800 or a couple of bucks for the former.

So, why would I pay an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch number "1" on the screen?

---

If it is easier for you, try to view my questions as rhetorical.

i know you are thinking you are just buying a "number 1" and watching it. but you are not
you are ignoring its utility..

you are acting as if a bank note is just a serial number which you just watch and see the amount of loaves of bread it can buy deminish each year. where all you want to talk about is the serial number vs bread loaf value.


firstly its utility is not just "number 1"
deflationary
unlike bank notes that can print endlessly meaning inflation allows you to buy less bread per $10 bank note per year/decade. bitcoin supply halves every 4 years meaning less NEW coins every 4 years where that equates to deflation which means people would sell more loaves of bread for less coin as time goes on

remittance
you dont need to go to western union and explain why you are sending $38k to your relative in another country, with bitcoin you just make a transaction without having to explain who you are or the other person or the reason for the transfer.
its a currency without the banks. i can buy pizza, rent, a car, and hundreds of thousands of other things without needing to disclose bank details or reasons for payment.

monitoring
unlike bank accounts(like remittance) that need ID and question purpose of transactions. there is also no flagging of spending over 0.3btc(~$10k). you can send as little or as much as you like. no questions asked

security
unlike bank accounts where banks can seize funds, as long as your the only private key holder of the 'number 1' only you can move it. there is no chargeback scamming. no fractional reserve. no 90day refund policy. . once its moved. its moved, end of.
also unlike art, oil,wheat. where you are stuck with flame risking asset, which if it burns its gone.
all you need to store is the private key for security. you can store your private key in multiple safe places, in multiple forms. where as art is a single instance which doesnt like fire.

supply.
unlike gold that was said to have a 190k tonne cap. and now with asteroid mining in near future that cap has evaporated. bitcoin will only have (actually less than) 21million 'number 1'.

yes its not like commodity. (wheat,oil, gold) where its a raw material used to make other products
yes its not like a stock/share(value of company holding)

its an asset. like collectables, currencies.
yes its not an attractive collectable asset like jewellery or art. but here is the thing, its a asset currency. with better utility than fiat currencies

most of the aesthetic features of collectable assets do not convert the aesthetics feature into the market price.
take gold.
if it cost only $2 to mine gold in a back yard using only a spoon and a coffee filter. the market would speculate only at $2-$5
however because it costs over $900 to mine gold, the market speculates between $900-$2k

yes there are many factors that change the 'demand' decision of valuing it nearer the $900 or nearer the $2k speculative price inside the value window. where some of those decision might be based on desire/aesthetics/etc. but the aesthetics dont affect the $900-$2k window.

you have to understand the underlying value window.

bitcoin sits at around $35k-$85k value window today due to the cheapest mining cost vs the most expensive mining cost today.
iceland/kazahkstan($35k)       bermuda/german($85k)

lets say in america
hobby miners mining in residential area's have a mining cost of $51k
industrial asic farm mining has a mining cost of $41k

so right now. the speculative price for americans make it more desirable to buy it for $38k today, rather then slowly accumulate it from mining at more cost($41k-$51k)
china, kazahkstan, iceland prefer to mine...  germany, japan, europe, america prefer to buy

most of bitcoins volatile PRICE within the value window. is not based on aesthetics. its based on the acquisition value of whats cheapest way to get bitcoin.
where by the reason people want it vary based on its utility,security, features as a asset currency. and where bitcoin is more deflationary than golds 'asset' class investment market.

inshort. when asteroid miners bring tonnes of gold back in 2040, golds value will DROP. because tonnes of extra gold per year is occurring more then earth mining. (earth mining per year 3tonne ->asteroid mining 100tonne per starship load)
yet bitcoins production would be 32x less than todays rate(6.25 -> 0.1953125 per block)

You're just describing bitcoin. You can describing it from now until eternity, but after I pay $37,000 for it, I am still only able to watch number "1" on the screen. That's all the utility I get for paying such an enormous amount of money. Your descriptions mean nothing to me. They cannot change facts. These descriptions are essentially just psychological rationalizations of those who bought bitcoin blindly, without checking what they are actually buying.

Regarding, a bank note. It's a security by which a banking system has liability to it's holder, just like a stock and a bond certificates are securities by which their issuers have such liability. As such they have nothing to do with bitcoin. No entity has liability to you when you hold bitcoin.

you can cry about how you just see a bank note serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of bank notes

you can cry about how you just see a share certificate serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of shares

you can cry about how you just see a stock certificate serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of stocks.

..
so the real question is
why are you seeing beyond a bank notes serial number?? and trying to find a bank notes utility. but ignorantly and arrogantly trying too hard to only see a txid and think its the only thing you can do

I am not crying. I am stating the facts that securities are utilized at the time of their withdrawal from the market by providing their holders the capital that the issuers of securities were liable to return. I am also stating that bitcoin is not a security. So the only possible way anyone can utilize bitcoin is by watching a number on a screen. What I am asking is why would I pay $37,000 for watching number "1" on the screen. So, it's pretty simple.

dont watch the txid.
dont watch a bank note serial number.

you pretend all you can do is look at a number for bitcoin. but thats just as naively as me saying all i can do is look at a bank note serial number.

if you think bitcoin is just a number as you would have to then think a bank note is just a number. you would realise there is more to it in both cases than a number

if all you can see is a txid or a bank note serial number, then you are looking at the wrong thing. so stop looking at it. take your eyes off of it and realise the other things you can do with bitcoin and bank notes.

by the way. banks are not liable to you for $10
if you lose a bank note, a bank wont compensate you

if $10 bank note can buy you 4 loaves of bread, but banks push inflation to only be 2 loaves of bread at retail for $10. the bank will not give you 4 loaves when you surrender $10 to the bank.
the most they will do is give you a crisp $10 in replacement for the rank, sticky, dirty old $10.
they wont even give you 2 compensatory loaves if you show them a retail receipt of 2 loaves for $10

what you are buying is not the txid or the serial number. what you are buying is a unit of measure that can be used to buy/spend/keep/invest.

with a bank note i guarantee you in 20 years time you can buy LESS bread with it. and no bank will compensate you for the missing bread
with bitcoin i guarantee you in 20 years time you can buy MORE bread with it.

as for liability.
with bank notes. the moment you receive $10 income. your suppose to declare 20%($2) of it as tax. meaning your at an instant 20% loss of value

with bank notes. when you receive $10 as a loan. your suppose to pay back $11 in 2 years (5% interest).

you are never going to get 4 loaf value with a bank note. the banks do not owe you anything.

I think nothing. I am just saying what I see. I see that issuers of the securities return holders the capital at the securities withdrawal. That's the purpose of the securities. That's how they are utilized. At their puting on the market the capital is borrowed, and at their withdrawal the capital is returned.

Given that bitcoin is not a security one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen. The bitcoin system exists only to provide the holders with this "watching" and to transfer it between people. First the miners invest electricity to make the system running, and the system rewards them by giving them the ability to watch a number on the screen. Then, they sell this "watching" to someone else. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it. I am simply asking why would I pay so much money for something like that?

This is true.


This is also true.


It has been explained to you multiple times now that this is false.  Either you are being intentionally obtuse and ignoring the explanations, or you suffer from poor reading comprehension.  You can say it over and over and over (and you have), but repeating it doesn't make it true, nor does ignoring the forms of value that have been explained to you.


They do not.  The smallest spendable value of bitcoin is currently valued by the market at $0.037. You certainly can by multiple spendable units of it if you want to (just like you can buy miltiple paintings, or multiple ounces of gold)

Why does it look like you trailed off a bit at the end and almost veered into the world of NFT's when talking about buying images? When you own a share of a company (aka a stock) the company is not liable to pay anything back to you, that is not how it works. If the company does well, it brings in a profit and uses that money to fund growth and/or pay out dividends to the owners of shares. You could put it back on the open market and somebody might buy it from you for a higher or lower amount than you bought it. If a company buys back shares, it is similar to a dividend payment, because they are reducing the pool of shares available and pushing up the price of every remaining share in theory. Bonds are different again, as they are debts of a company - you will get the capital amount back and be paid an interest rate until the company pays it off. Bitcoin, arguably like every other currency, only has value because people are willing to use it as a store of value and it has a convenient trading purpose.

It's been years and people still compare physical and digital goods and say that physical ones must have higher value because you can hold them and sometimes turn them into something else, just like you can turn gold into jewelry.
Wake up OP, people have been paying a lot of money in various fiat currencies for domain names, online accounts, game items, even pixels! Times when you needed a person to vouch for an item for it to be valuable are long gone and never coming back.

I don't care about explanations but utilization of a product that has price of $37,000. If I pay the price the only utilization I can get is watching number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. That's the only truth. No explanation can change it.

No need to always be aesthetic if you want to buy something. But if you really want to buy it based on aesthetic value, can you turn your mind to another side of "aesthetic"? By looking at your Bitcoin value that cents by cents increasing?
I am not thinking of taking Bitcoin as seen as aesthetic, I see it as money, where I can use it for currency (if available in some merchants) and also use it for investment digitally.
It is about mindset, if you buy something by only seeing the value of it physically, don't go to Bitcoin.
But if you buy something by seeing the value inside of it and for investment,buy Bitcoin
If you are doubtful, don't buy Bitcoin
If you are sure enough, buy Bitcoin

so to summarise

topic creator says he has a couple questions...
.. explains that he only sees a number, only wants to look at a number, and asks us why he is doing it.

he does not want any answer about other things he can look at or think about or use bitcoin for.
he just wants to see a number and why he should think that staring at a number is worth $39k

he basically wants us to explain his narrow sighted view.

again we explain why bitcoin is not just a number, but he again has no interest in knowing what bitcoin is, he just wants to know why a number is something to look at.

in short.
he is not asking questions. not wanting answers. he just wants to be as pedantic as someone that collects bank notes that have a prefix 'A' in the serial number, not wanting to know how money works or what a bank note can be used for, he just wants to know about why 'A' serial numbers have value, and why staring at a serial number for 16 hours a day brings it value(facepalm)

lets leave him to stare endlessly. and maybe he will get bored one day, and decide he is ready to learn what things can be used for and what actually brings it value beyond his non-blinking gazes

So, what's the difference with fiat? last year I didn't use paper money too much, I just use my debit card everywhere I need to purchase anything, So, on my debit card, I can see just number and when I pay only the digits are changed. I don't have to face any problem buying/selling stuff with these numbers.


It is not any fact right? (comparison Bitcoin vs Gold) are made by ordinary people, it is not anything proven matter, people like to compare worthy things with Gold.
And you have to pay a lot of money to buy a single unit cause the demand is high perhaps the supply is low.



Bitcoin is not made for watching it to get pleasure, It is made for making the transaction system easier & faster without 3rd party interaction.

Look at the title of this topic. I am a buyer, a potential buyer. And I am asking, why should I pay so much money if the only utility I get after the purchase, is the ability to watch number "1" on the screen? Watching numbers has some minimum aesthetic value. But if I want such a value I could just press the key on my keyboard, get the number I like and enjoy it. So, why would I pay the current price of $38,398 to get the same utility? I see no rational answers here. Moreover, in comparison to number 1, the number 0.00000001 has more aesthetic value and is quantitatively richer, given it has more pixels. Yet, it costs only $0.00038. On the other hand, the number 10,000,000 is aesthetically and pixelatically similar to number 0.00000001, but it costs $383,980,000.

So this is not like numbers in the case of the securities, where a particular number only represents the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return. This is not like in the case of gold, where a particular number only represents the quantity of this metal. In bitcoin system, people are literally purchasing numbers for being numbers. Like pictures are purchased for being pictures. Miners are spending ton of electricity only to get numbers. That's craziness never seen in human history.

People get rich by buying arts all the time. It all depends on your expectations. Lots of people became rich by buying bitcoin before. Why do you think it would be different for you? Yes you can become rich buy buying a NFT too, if you are lucky.


But these numbers are of limited supply. Only 21 million of them is available. If every millionaire wanted one, they couldn't get it. And they all want it. Look at Michael Saylor, Elon Musk etc...

You should panic because there isn't enough bitcoins for everybody on earth. So start buying right fucking now and maybe you can get your full piece before your funeral.

What the heck is utility value you are talking about? How do we measure this utility value and what units of measurement are there to express this utility? It is merely an ephemeral concept that doesn't make any sense at all since different people will value different things differently and that so-called value or utility value will vary significantly from one person to another. Moreover, there is no way to measure this value, it cannot be aggregated, subtracted, added, or divided. There is no reference system exist to measure the degree of utility. Even if we could measure it, it would be pointless to do that anyway because we are talking about bitcoin, which is a pure form of money. Unlike other goods, money is only useful when exchanged for something, it has no value by itself. So, money is only demanded because of its monetary use cases, and if there are other use cases such as industrial or ethical, that only distorts its functions and results in more complicated economic calculations. People buy bitcoin not because it has some questionable utility value that cannot be measured, but because bitcoin is the only money that is both decentralized and digital, money that is far superior to gold in terms of monetary characteristics.

I have a counter-question for you. Why does a loaf of bread costs less than a diamond despite the fact that a loaf of bread has a higher utility value since it allows humans to eat and survive, whereas diamonds do nothing useful to humans?

If that's the only thing you can think of doing with monetary sovereignty, that would seem to imply a lack imagination on your part.  If you can't see the value in censorship resistant money, you probably don't understand it well enough yet.  I'm of the view that you should possess a thorough understanding of something before you invest in it.  As such, I'd suggest Bitcoin may not be the right investment for you.

Weak troll is weak.

I gotta interfere:


A loaf of bread is more useful than diamond for humans probably but it is also not as rare. Diamond is rare af and it is far from being useless.

The thing that I am getting when purchasing bitcoin is a number. Numbers are not limited in supply, but infinite. Just because someone wrote a software with limited number of numbers doesn't make numbers limited like gold or diamonds are limited. Every idiot can write a software that puts numbers into a database and shows them on the screen. In whatever amount they want.

I am not interested in reasons why people buy bitcoin. Nor why they value same things differently. I am interested in something pretty simple. I see the ask price on the market, currently around $38,0000, and I am asking why should I pay that price if the only utility value I get is the ability to watch number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. You see how simple it is? I don't care about other people. I care only about the product that costs like a brand new car. With a car I have the ability to do lot of things. With bitcoin the only ability I have is the ability to watch number on the screen. So, why should I pay the price? I am not a blind buyer and I don't buy things just because people put prices on them. I am a rational buyer and I check what I am buying. So, can you provide a rational answer?

Now everybody can yes but nobody could do it until 2008. Bitcoin was the first to do this and it isn't just a database. It is a distributed database which updates itself in every 10 mins. Nocoiner boomers like you will never be convinced so I agree with the second post in this thread.

"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry." -satoshi, the almighty

Have fun staying poor.

Without explanations, discipline and willingness to learn, you may not be able to understand the utilization.  :(

Everything's a number nowadays. What's the difference with Bitcoin: This number can't be censored by anyone. Everyone is forced to accept it's true. This feature is what makes it electronic cash. If you fail to understand this fact, you justifiably complain that there's nothing legitimate behind it.

It's not about what I understand, it's about what I get. After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen. If I sell bitcoin to someone else, they also get the same ability. No human being can get anything after purchasing bitcoin, except this ability. So it's not like in the case of securities where people get the ability to recive the capital at the security withdrawal from the market. It's not like in the case of gold where people get the ability to use gold for jewelry, electronics  and so on. It's literally the ability to watch a number on the screen.

And of course it's not that only today everything is numbers. It was always like that. Numbers always existed. It's not Satoshi that invented them. The point is that numbers have always been just an axillary means to mathematically express the quantity of something. In the case of securities to express the quantity of capital that security issues borrowed and are liable to return. In the case of gold, the quantity of this metal. When I am buying 10,000 EUR I am not buying number "10,0000". Rather, I am buying the ability to recive a specific amoun of capital at the withdrawal of EUR units, wich is at loans liquidation/repayment. When I am buying two ounces of gold I am not buying number "2", but the ability to utilize gold for jewelry and other purposes. On the other hand, when people are buying one bitcoin they are literally buying number "1". And the only ability they have is to watch that number like pictures are watched. I am simply asking why would I buy something like that from people? Why would I gave them an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch a number?

But, you're not supposed to look your screen. You're supposed to use it as a currency. Haven't you yet acknowledged that this is the only purpose of its existence? It doesn't have any intrinsic value. It's only meant to be traded.

You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable.

I'm trying to look things the way you do and I think you're just closed-minded.

I think also that Op has his mind closed on bitcoin but the reflection he sees through blockchain is enough of conviction for him or that even in bank transaction, there is a mirror reflection on his alert. Bitcoin is more modernized and monitized system that has gave financial power to individual people to trade and hodl P2P. No point of convincing to Op.

Well, if two individuals exchanged a car and a grain of sand, they agreed that a grain of sand is money, and it instantly gained monetary value.  Everything can be money, even numbers, that is crypto. But that's not the point. The point is, why would I gave my car for a grain of sand? Why would I gave my car for number 1? Why would I gave 150,000 kWh of energy for the same number? A car and 150,000 kWh of energy, in comparison to a grain of sand or digital number 1, have an enormously higher utilization capacity. I am simply asking why would a rational buyer ever agree to such an irrational exchange of utilization capacities?

Why will you give your car for a million dollars in cash? Because people accept it as a currency. Because, you'll afterwards go to another person who's willing to trade their goods for your dollars. Simple economics where societies develop mediums of exchange.

Same happens with Bitcoin. It meets the conditions to be considered currency. It was designed by humans only for that purpose. What's so hard to understand about that?

Because with a million dollars, either cash or digital, I get the ability to recive capital at the dollar withdrawal from the market, which is at loans repayments/liquidations. Dollar is a security. Securities are shares in capital that the security issues borrowed and have the liability to return. Bitcoin on the other hand is not a security. It is literally a number. You can consider whatever you want, but bitcoin will still be only a number. Hence the question.

You're gravely mistaken if you think that this is an exclusive feature of the dollar. It can happen to every currency. You still don't answer to my question, though. You said that you can multiply your dollars, but this doesn't answer on why you would trade your car with some pieces of paper.

the reason why people view things as a medium of exchange is not just an agreement to give it value. its not 'lets pick a random number and agree'

its based on the value before it at the current and previous acquisition that gives it the current value

if it cost me $35k to mine bitcoin(cheapest on planet). then that is my bottomline value. i wont sell at a loss
if it cost me a days labour(say $80min-wage) to collect a rare stone. thats its min value. i wont sell at a loss

is someone else can get the same thing cheaper. so be it let them get it cheaper from that someone else. (early adopter that acquired it for under $35k)
but if majority of active traders all had a minimum above a certain level. then no one would value it for less than the minimum and so thats the minimum anyone can value it at.

some countries like US hobby miners on residential electric prices and no access to wholesale price asics. have a $51k mining value for obtaining bitcoin. but see they can get bitcoin for $39k on a open market. so thats what they do. they buy it for $39k
or they might be lucky to get it from a kazahkstan o-t-c trade privately for $37k. and so they do, they buy it for $37k

but right now no one is willing to sell for just $2, so the bottom value is not $2. its more above the $35k as bottom.

the speculation above the $35k minimum then becomes numerous factors, the need, desire effects. the convenience of acquiring it via this way(market) vs other ways(o-t-c/mining).
then other features are decided on the 'need' such as transferring value without bank middlemen asking questions or putting value limits on transfers.immutable transfer (no chargebacks), sole private key ownership (avoids middlemen asset seizure) and many things that make bitcoin  a better currency feature wise to bank notes

which then has the speculative price that can be volatile above the $35k bottomline
EG germany/bermuda wont mine as their costs are $80k plus right now, so they are more then happy to buy for $39k, they are ecstatic, getting a coin at half the cost of mining it.
kazahkstan can mine if for $35k so some dont see $39k as exceptional value. but some see the convenience of just buying in 10 minutes 1btc which would normally take them weeks to mine enough satoshi's to get 1btc for $35k. so convenience makes some still willing to buy for $39k
america are happy to buy too. as their mining costs are over $40k, though some existing US industrial asic farms at $41k cost, think its inconvenient to shut down their asics temporarily to just buy. so they temporarily still mine and hedge the risk by mining to accumulate because they know the price will rise to cover it later.

bitcoins $35k value, $39k price are not just randomly chosen out of thin air.
medium of exchange value is not just suddenly $10bank note is worth 4 loaves of bread.
its calculated by many assumptions. such as a baker taking 45minutes cooking time plus 10 minutes prep labour and 80c of ingredients for 4 loaves. means he wont sell bread for less than a $10 bank note

a baker does not just pick a random price and say, ok ill take this number today. he will take value that meets or exceeds his cost

Simple answer: you don't. Someone else will. Case closed.


Are you really saying that a grain of sand has no utilization capacity? That's just mind-blowing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand#Uses


That's the economy. Stop worrying about things you don't understand.

Is that what Bitcoin really is to you? Have you gotten to know Bitcoin a little more deeply? What do you think is the reason why Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-currency? That, despite of a strong resistance from all directions, heavy criticisms, extreme labels, and so on. Do you think in buying Bitcoin people only buy a number registered and kept in the blockchain? Have you heard of any decentralized money? Have you heard of a tamper-proof, censor-proof, borderless currency? Have you heard of a currency whose supply is fixed, hard-coded, in the system?

Anyway, for argument’s sake, people give value to anything under the sun. It’s all about agreement. If a community agrees among themselves that this unique kind of leaf or that shiny kind of stone has value and could be used as a currency, it will have value. You have to take note that people worship a tree, a stone, or whatever.

I am not trading it with some pieces of paper but with security that give me the right to recive capital that the security issuers borrowed at security puting on the market. The higher a number on paper the more capital, that is utility value, will I receive at security withdrawal from the market. You must educate yourself how securities work to be able to understand what I am talking about. But here that's not the point given bitcoin is not a security. Bitcoin is literally a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it?

---

Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-number because people accepted whatever ask the sellers put on the market. I am not accepting it because I am a rational buyer. I am checking what I am buying. That's why I asked the questions.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

a $10 bank note is a security of what???
if you take it to a bank. what do you expect in exchange??
at best they will swap a dirty, tatty crumpled bank note for a crisp bank note. 1:1


if you lose a $10 bank note, a bank wont just re-reimburse you/compensate you for the hole in your pocket.

a bank note is no longer backed by gold.
if anything it can be considered backed by copper/nickel that puts a $10 bank note at relative exchange of about $20 worth of scrap metal pennies and 5c coins. but the inconvenience of holding such weight and counting coins when doing purchases means people dont like to accept 1000 pennies for a $10 value purchase even if they can scrap the 1000 pennies for $20 later.

when loans are taken out. its printing money(from nothing). where the receiver has to pay it back + interest
this then causes your $10 bank note to not be worth $10 value. because the moment it circulates. and you receive it as income from work. you are suppose to give $2(20%) of your income to the government in taxes. meaning your instantly at a 20% value loss, only able to buy $8 worth of goods.

if you take out a mortgage for $100k your basically going to have to give back $110k on a 2 year loan(5% interest per year)
so that $100k is also less than $100k value. because you need to do 130% labour to pay tax(20%) on new income and then pay it off with the remainder income+interest(10%).

what do you seriously expect bank notes to secure, what liability is it you are describing that banks have to you.

is not a "whatever ask the seller put" its actually the seller deciding what his costs were and what he can expect to sell for.
its where the buyer can look for different ways to obtain bitcoin away from the market and decide if the market price is near value or premium compared to other acquisition methods(otc/mining/scamming)

as for your need to explain how YOU see "liability/security"
take the Zimbabwean dollar.(1980-2009) it hyper inflated. and the government did not protect it at the 1:1 rate against the US $
in the end people had trillion Z$ worth less than a loaf of bread

I don't know what you're trading it with, but when I buy a car I give these:


The fact that you can use it to buy securities, bonds, investment funds etc. does not make it anything beyond a currency. This is all it is. And it has value, because your government says so. If you found another way to make your transactions, then you'd have found out another currency. This is Bitcoin. And since it's entirely possible to buy any type of titles with a currency, you can do with Bitcoin too.

Bank notes or numbers on my banking account secure the capital that I invested in them because the borrowers are forced, via collateral, to use these notes or numbers to repay their loans. Here you have video explaining that: https://youtu.be/p37Wg6h2PJ4

Or: https://youtu.be/aBl-O_3g_58

---

Yes, these euro units secure that you will recive the capital from the banking system and borrowers at the withdrawal of these units from the market. Check the videos linked above. You have two different approaches explaining this.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Winning and non-winning lottery tickets may be one of the worst ways to analogize USD with Bitcoin. May I assume you've made it?

This video gives a horrible example of how these two currencies differentiate. You keep using these buzzwords (e.g., “numbers”, “redeemable numbers” etc.) to achieve what exactly? Yes, any form of IOU is redeemable, congratulations for figuring this out.

The video doesn't explain why Bitcoin is meaningless. It just says that it's not redeemable, which is not true. Redeemable means that it can be exchanged for goods, services or money. Both assets and liabilities (IOUs) are redeemable.

You're repeatedly having false syllogisms. False conclusions.

ok you love the phrases "number 1" and "security" "liability"

but what is a bank note secured against.
saying a bank note is backed by another bank note is not security. its just a promise to swap crumpled paper for crisp paper 1:1
it doesnt protect against inflation or loss

it especially does not secure your value that in 30 years you can still buy the same amount of bread as now.
heck zimbabwe went through 4 different bank notes and each time within years it lost value very very very quickly
so much so that zimbabwe just gave up on its own currency and now people use Us/euro currency.

the zimbabwe dollar did not secure anything and citizens of zimbabwe did not get compensated for the banking faults

a zimbabwe dollar being backed only by another zimbabwe dollar does not protect the zimbabwe dollar

..

if you expanded it out a bit, that $10 is worth 1000 copper pennies valued at $20 scrap price.
but then bitcoin can be exchanged for an altcoin or other assets

if you expanded out a bit you could say that 7.25 us dollars is secured against minimum wage law. meaning even someone on the lowest paid job will get atleast 7.50 of bank money for their hours labour.

but then you will have to realise that right now:
bitcoins most efficient work per btc is $35k
bitcoins least efficient work per btc is $85k

but here is the thing.
bitcoin is not a random TXID with an output number which has a randomly chosen price of no value.

bitcoins value window is between $35k-$85k as explained before. in multiple ways in different posts
the price sits within the value window.

the value window is the backed value based on the cost.
much like how copper has a acquisition cost. gold has an acquisition cost.

where it varies in price depending on different factors that vary the price within their respective value windows

 

There's nothing false. Redeemable means able to be bought back by the issuer. It doesn't mean able to be traded. If I buy a government bond on the market I didn't redeem that bond. Only the government can do that by paying me the face value of the bond. I see that you lack basic knowledge about finance. That's why you have all these misconceptions about fiat currencies. No, fiat currencies are not numbers. They are securities. Bitcoin is a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it? Try to answer this question instead of makings false claims about securities.

So, why would I pay $38,000 only to get the ability to watch number 1 on the screen?

ok.. this guy is being arrogently ignorant.

last time, just for fun

you are not buying the ability to watch a number.

you are buying a medium of exchange that has many features and benefits that has a cost.
that cost is somewhere between $35-$85k right now

depending on how available it is for you to get, either o-t-c, market or mining. is a deciding factor of convenience, ability and time it requires to get 1btc for the different methods.

EG if you live in kazahkstan you could probably find a way to get it for $37k instead of the market price of $39k
EG if you live in germany you wont want to get it from mining at $80k+, so instead prefer the market price of $39k

but no where, no place, no way can you get bitcoin for $2 . so the value of bitcoin is not $2
near everyone is willing to sell for atleast $35k. and make profit if they sell for more.

its not like there are 2 people rolling 14,000 dice each where by they both get a random number. of meaningless. each. and then agree on a middle.

instead its based on acquisition costs. that value between a current value window of $35k-$85k where diffferent regions have different price points. where some can buy it real cheap vs other places where its at a bit of a premium to other methods of acquiring

the reason they want it in the first place is a multitude of reasons.
the way that its a currency that offers different features that banks dont
the way that its a currency that offers different less restrictions than banks do
how you can hand it to another owner without needing to explain reasons
how you can buy things with it
how you can be the sole controller of transfers
how it is irreversible
how its immutable
how it does not rely on government involvement
how its deflationary, to hedge against inflation
you can treat it like a 'trust' without having to get a solicitor/lawyer to draw up 'trust documents'
you can use it like an off-shore tax shelter. store value without having to do any banking shuffling
keep it as a pension pot or assign it as inheritance without having to do complex Will's or contracts
.. and so on


here is the thing though..
take zimbabwe..
having a 1trillion Z$ is redeemable for??
nothing now

people in zimbabwe dont even use zimbabwe dollar. it broke. its finito

in the 1900's a US $10 bank note could buy 75 loaves of bread.
i guarantee you if you handed in a $10 bank note they would not redeem it for something that can buy you 75 loaves of bread
they have not secured value, they are not liable to you for 75 loaves of bread per $10 bank note

all you would get is another more crisp fresh smelling $10 note. which can only buy you the same 4 bread loaf value as today
if you hold it for 10 years. i guarantee you, you wont be able to buy more then 3 loaves of bread with it.

at best/worse you might decide to accept 1000 copper heavy coins. hoping to sell it for scrap for equivalent of 8 loaves of value(at best) but thats with the hassle of then trying to get someone to convert the scrap metal for value equivalent to loaves of bread, at scrap metal value

but government/banks are not securing value or liable to you for the 75 loaf value of the past.
nor are they securing or made liable to always give you 4 loaves of bread value for bank notes held today, in the future

the serial number of a trillion zimbabwe dollar bank note you admire so much as 'security' is worth not even a square millimetre of a single sheet of toilet paper.. meaning a trillion Zdollar bank note is not even worth wiping your ass with it.


yet 1btc (of many) that i got in 2012, which could get me 3loaves of bread, can now get me 15,600 loaves of bread.
because deflation is better than inflation.

i also used some coin to do trades, to secure funds for pension, some inheritance to nephews, and to pass funds through customs without having to hold a debit card or paper cash on me when travelling.. heck it even paid for the ticket and hotel...
i also paid rent with it, bought food with it. furniture and loads of other things,

heck a couple evenings a week, when people complain that my words are not grammatically precise, is because of a nice bottle of whiskey paid for in btc

In a similar way, blockchain secure all the bitcoin transactions. The bank notes can be printed by the government making its value less with more increase in supply but in case of bitcoin, its value will keep on increasing because of its limited supply. Think if you hold 1000$ in dollar and 1000$ in bitcoin (which you call numbers) from 2010, you would have become millionaire by now. This is the potential of bitcoin which you are repeatedly ignoring.

Hahaha. It is actually you who is being arrogently ignorant.

The fact is this. After buying bitcoin I literally am only able to watch a number. There's nothing to eat, wear, drink, drive ... There's nothing to use as jewelry or energy. There's no entity with the liability to return me the capital I invested in it. There's only a number that I am able to watch.

Now, you can call this ability "a medium of exchange" or "currency". You can say it has many features and benefits. You can talk about availability, irreversibility, immutability, costs of mining, someone's profit, inflation, deflation, government, pension ... whatever. But still, after paying $38,000 I am only able to watch a number on the screen. That's all I got. I cannot redeem that number at the issuer. I cannot use it for consumption. I cannot use it as an intermediate good. Nothing. All I can do is to watch it like pictures are watched. No matter how many fancy concepts you mention. No matter how many fancy words you use. No matter what you say and do, this fact won't change.

So, I am not interested in your philosophical rants. The only thing I am interested in is the answer to a simple question: why would I pay $38,000 only to be able to watch number on the screen?

Why would I care for someone's transactions? Why would I fantasize about being a millionaire? I only asked two simple questions. Can you answer them please?

You keep thinking in terms of government's bonds. Stop it. The videos you've mentioned have no relation with the questions you're making here. You're asking “why would I want to buy a number”, I'm telling you that this number can be used to exchange stuff; it's a medium of exchange. There are people who find it useful. Focus on this statement.

No, it also means able to be traded:

By the same reasoning, gold is also a dead rock. Yes, you can make jewelry, but what's the point of jewelry if you don't care about shiny necklaces? What if you don't care about electronics? What if you don't care about medicine and dentistry? Guess what: Some people do.

Same goes for Bitcoin. Some people are satisfied by using it as a currency, because it has perfect characteristics. The fact that you're seeing it just as a number doesn't make that false. Do we agree that if two individuals find it satisfactory, it instantly gains value? (Whether that's personal or market value)

To sell it for $100k? What kind of a dumb question is this? Are you stewpid? You talk all that crap about finance and you don't know the basics of finance which is buying low and selling high? Read a book you ignorant fool.

Stock Investing For Dummies Cheat Sheet (https://www.dummies.com/article/business-careers-money/personal-finance/investing/investment-vehicles/stocks/stock-investing-for-dummies-cheat-sheet-208092)

Well, this is exactly what I am doing. Trying to exchange stuff. You want $38,000 dollars from me. And what you offer me in return is the ability to watch number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. I am asking why would I gave you that much money for such an ability. Your answer is because this number is amedium of exchange. This is pretty irrational answer given that "a medium of exchange" is just a generic phrase. It's like asking a salesman about the box that has $10,000 price on it, and he answers: : that's a product. "A product" is just a generic phrase. The same thing is saying that something is "money", "currency", "digital gold", whatever. What I want to know is what utilization capacity will I get for my dollars? Dollars, which gave me the right to collaterals, goods, services, or labour of the borrowers, as explained in the above linked videos. So, we are trying to exchange stuff. And I am asking you: what utilization capacity do you offer me for my dollars? What is your answer?

Why are some people paying 1 million for a bugatti if they can have an audi cheaper? Why do they pay more for a lambo that uses audi parts than for an audi? Why people pay more for a bitcoin where they could have bitcoin cash for cheaper? Think about it.

You demand answers to be pushed down your throat instead of using your brain and coming up with them by yourself.

i dont think he wants answers about what give bitcoin value or what bitcoin does.
i think maybe he just wants a good reason why its in his interest to sit and stare at the bitcoin price non stop for a few years.
maybe he is not yet ready to actually understand what bitcoin can do and be used for.

he just wants a reason to give to his relatives, when asked by his relatives "why are you staring at the price all day"

i remember years ago i had days of just watching the price volatility rock up and down.
but atleast i learned in like 20 seconds to think beyond the price ups and downs of a 'number 1' to actually see the reasons behind everything which then made it worth watching 'number 1'. 2012 was a great learning experience for me.. bitcoin has more sides and facets to it than ordinary financial understanding, terminology and usecases.
 just a shame he is not at this point of wanting to learn more

I already gave it to you. You're getting the ability to use a currency. Just like when you give $1 for €0.88. Bitcoin is a currency with specific characteristics. Some evaluate it because of these.

No it's not. No one makes much usage of one empty box to give $10,000 for it.

And yet, that's the only answer. The only purpose of Bitcoin's existence is because it helps us make transactions in a different way.

You'll be able to use an internet currency that is censorship resistant, borderless, fast and online 24/7/365.

It seems like you're just anti bitcoin and or you simply don't understand what it is and or how it works.  Bitcoin is not the same thing as gold, or wheat or crude oil or a shutter stock photo etc.  These are all entirely different things that do different things. Bitcoin by nature is a currency ( yes it does have other aspects ) and it's a virtual currency that has tremendous upside for the technology it is based off of. 

It's really as simple as that.

to antithesis:
emphasis on a different way.
where there are many many features and benefits already listed in this topic that you(antithesis) are purposefully ignoring.

the many ways have already been explained multiple times by multiple people.
take a few days away from the keyboard and rid your self of the "number 1" limited view. then actually research and see what bitcoin can actually do differently than fiat.

we have already gave you many hints, now its your turn to find your own answers

heres some highlights


its not just a number that sits on your phone. its actually a medium of exchange meaning you can do things with it and use it as a currency or asset.

heck some people have actually implanted private keys into 2 layers of painting canvas and then painted a picture on the top layer, and then sold the art which displays the public address.. whereby to claim the value people need to destroy the art. or preserve the art to preserve the key

heck some people have actually implanted private keys into physical coins whereby breaking the physical coin is needed to reveal the private key. so preserving the physical coin preserves the value on the private key.

so if you want to make your bitcoin value "attractive" and physical.. you can

you will be surprised what you can do with bitcoin beyond just "seeing a number 1"

^ Yes.
Because since you are a potential buyer, I believe there is nothing more you need to ask for since it is your initiative to research and dig deeper to know more about it before you decided to buy it and here is from Satoshi saying, "If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry". Simply as that. We don't have much time for those people who had to feel anti-BTC to argue with them, instead, encourage them to see what is the better future the BTC has.

Well, people are buying a Bugatti because they are able to utilize it. That's why cars exist in the the market in the first place. Because they have utilization capacity - they are able to be driven. The price then depends on how big this capacity is. So, people are not buying cars because they are tradable. Everything on the market is tradable by definition. And everything that is tradable is by definition means of exchange. You can't say: "a Bugatti costs $1M because it's tradable". That's stupid. It's the utilization capacity that matters. This is true for everything that is in the market. When buyers are checking a product they basically check its utilization capacity.

Utilization capacity of a security is how much value will the last holder of a security get from the issuer at the security withdrawal from the market. If for e.g. a bond issuer offers $1,000 face value that's the utilization capacity and the market price will be around that level. No one will pay you $1M for a bond with $1,0000 face value.

We know that bitcoin issuer/issuers don't withdraw bitcoin from the market to give something to the last bitcoin holders. So, bitcoin has zero utilization capacity in that sense. Bitcoin is not a security like bonds, stocks or fiat currencies are. Which means that bitcoin must have utilization capacity the same as economic goods have. And in bitcoin, this utilization capacity is the ability to be watched on the screen. It is not the ability to be driven, eaten, turned into energy or jewelry, etc. It's simply the ability to be watched. What I am asking is why would I pay $38,000 for that? People in this topic are ignoring this question. But instead, they repeat, in various ways, that bitcoin has generic feature of all things that exist on the market, that it is "tradable", that it is a "means of exchange", etc. Or they say bitcoin is easy to store and transfer. Well, a needle is tradable the same as a Bugatti. The needle is easier to store and transfer than a Bugatti. But would you trade the latter for the former? So, what I am interested to know is why would I give you a Bugatti for a needle? Why would I give you a thing with a huge utilization capacity for a thing with immensely small utilization capacity? Why would I give you a Bugatti for number "50"? Can you answer the question?

Open your online banking app and you will see the same useless numbers which are also of intangible nature, cannot be eaten, driven, turned into jewelry, etc. These numbers are nothing more than pixels on a screen. You don't need them actually because they by themselves have zero "utilization capacity." However, you for some reason keep buying them and keep going to your job to earn more useless digits. The real reason is that you don't want money, you want products, goods, services, things of real utilization capacity, which the only way to acquire is with useless digits you previously earned with blood and sweat. Bitcoin is no different from any other money in this regard, it is useless as a product but still can be exchanged for real products. The only reason people wish to buy bitcoin is that it has a greater potential than fiat money to be exchanged for more goods and services in the future. If you for some reason don't want to wait, if you don't want to defer consumption for the sake of more consumption in the future, you don't need Bitcoin, just keep using fiat money that is perfectly designed for immediate gratification of your needs. It's all about your preferences and your mindset.

I don't deny that there are a lot of people nowadays who simply accepted the price the sellers put. Many in the Bitcoin community nowadays are sheep. They don't really know enough about Bitcoin. They just know that there are people who made the careful study and concluded that the future of Bitcoin is bright. And the price has offered a sort of a testament for it. Because of this, they also want to own Bitcoin. Not a few among us simply joined the bandwagon.

But I don't want to compare you with them. I want to compare you with those who made a thorough study of Bitcoin and arrived at a conclusion that the technology is simply radically amazing. Billions are poured into Bitcoin after a serious scrutiny of its features. Perhaps you might want to wonder why they have a different conclusion.

This is true.

This is also true. Cars exist solely for this reason.

This is half true. The price is determined by lot of things, such as the price of their productive factors, the technological improvements, the need for driving from the consumers' side.

Correct, but some things are easier to trade than others. For instance, it's far easier to transport a million dollars worth of gold than a million dollars worth of cars. Gold is easier to cut into smaller pieces, it's durable and fungible. I'd prefer paying me in gold rather than in cars.

It's stupid because it's not designed to be traded. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to buy such car, just to trade it. It's not utilized for trade, but for driving.

You still haven't answered me why would I want these green pieces of paper. According to you, they don't have utility as they're designed only to be exchanged for goods and services.

They're valuable because they're used as currency. It's a measure of utility. Monopoly banknotes have not the same value, because they aren't accepted in the same way. But, they both are pieces of paper.

Of course and some do. Some don't want BTC, they are willing to exchange it for any other currency or product. However, I don't think withdraw is the correct verb to describe this.

Again, neither fiat currencies are. Securities, bonds and stocks happen on an already existent currency. Stocks aren't EUR, but they can be exchanged for it. Same can happen with Bitcoin, gold, rocks and salt as long as the buyer and the seller come into an agreement.

No, it's not. This is just you who's constantly thinking closed-mindedly. It can neither be driven or eaten. That doesn't make it non-utilizable.

I've already told it to you two times. You're paying any amount of dollars to use a currency that is different in character.

I explained above why this is false.

You're not going to trade 1 needle for 1 Bugatti. You're going to look up the price of 1 needle and the price of 1 Bugatti. If we assume that 1 Buggati costs $1,000,000 and 1 needle $0.01, then whether you give me 100,000,000 needles or 1 Buggati, they have the same market value.

Numbers on my bank account are not useless because banks and borrowers are liable to use them to liquidate the isued loans. Every number in someone's bank account is someone else's loan. And loans need to be payd. The banks, via borrowers, withdraw numbers from people's banking accounts literally every minute and in that way pay the last number holders goods, services or labour of the borrowers. With new loans numbers are put back on people's accounts and the whole process repeats itself. Bitcoins are never withdrawan from people's accounts by the issuer. They always exist in people's accounts/wallets. Meaning, bitcoin circulates in the market like gold. But unlike gold, it's literally useless. All people can do with it is watching it on the screen in the form of a number. So, I am still waiting for the answer to my questions. Why would I pay you $38,000 for watching a number on the screen.

You're generally not interested into admitting you're wrong. You can't accept another mindset. I wasn't interested into talking to such person, but hey, at least I tried.

When I come to a store, I am not there to "admit" something. I am there to ask a salesman about a particular product to find out whether the price on the product is reasonable. Here, I also ask about a product - bitcoin. And your answer is: "You're paying any amount of dollars to use a currency that is different in character."

Which is as stupid as the following answer by salesman: "You're paying any amount of dollars to use a product that is different in character."

We're not a store here, sir. We're making dialogue. We're not obligated to assist you.

Yes, that's my answer. That's the main reason people use Bitcoin. The fact that you don't like this answer doesn't make it not true. Allow me to tell you that not every person thinks exactly as you do.

Okay. That means they are so useless that you even can't control them and claim ownership over useless digits that are supposed to represent your purchasing power but represents only your gradual impoverishment. Loans that are paid in useless tokens are also useless numbers used to finance uncontrollable consumption and useless projects that add nothing useful to this world. This all is a result of the availability of cheap credit in fiat tokens conjured out of thin air by bureaucrats and corrupted politicians. I think you are a perfect example of a person who doesn't care he is being robbed by bankers and therefore he doesn't care there is an alternative and a way to opt-out, a person with high time-preference who value neither their own time nor other's and instead is wasting it on things that don't make any sense.

Please, don't answer since I am not interested in this discussion anymore.

car dealerships dont secure a car whereby a dealership is obligated to buy back the car when it is no longer drivable.

also all cars drive, but why buy a bughatti when you can buy a audi..

bitcoin is not just A number or A method of transport(value transfer). it has many other features that make it better than other methods of transport(value transfer).

you keep neglecting to see the features that make it better and just want to make this basic argument

'why buy a bughatti that just sits in my garage where the dealership wont give me anything if it stops running'
you are ignoring that a bughatti can drive. you are ignoring that a bughatti can do things faster easier then other vehicles. just to argue that a bughatti is just a object to look at in your garage that has no security and no function

I came here because here are the people that know bitcoin just like in a store there's a salesman that knows the products he sells. And when I ask this salesman about a particular product I am not interested why people buy or sell this product, but what is this product and what will I actually get after buying it. So if you are unable to answer my questions then simply don't reply. I am not interested in your sophistry.

but YOU are the one that is not listening to the sales men when they explain its features that are different to other things.
you just say "its a product on a bench" repeatedly, not wanting to accept its utility and function and benefits beyond "a product"

if i showed you a fiat analog phone, a crypto smartphone you wont want to hear about the different things they can do.
you dont even want to admit they are phones. you just say "its a product"

I'm very able of replying to your questions. You're just perpetually denying them, because they're not favoring you. You've spared so much time to create videos explaining why Bitcoin is meaningless and therefore, you want to be biased towards it.

You people are the problem. You are unable to answer what is bitcoin and what I actually get after buying it. You are using generic words like "currency", "product", "medium of exchange". What is a currency? Well, a word. What is definition of a word currency? Well, a group of words. What you must show is not words, but actual thing that I can benefit from. For e.g. a fiat currency is an actual debt. When that debt is paid I as a fiat currency holder recieve actual goods, services or labour from the borrowers. So, numbers on by banking account are an actual debt. What are numbers in your bitcoin wallet? Ownership of what will I actually get after becoming the holder of these numbers?

---

If bitcoin is not meaningless than you are able to answer what do I actually become the owner of after purchasing bitcoin?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Of course, people are the problem. You're right and everyone else is wrong. You can't understand that something which is not tangible can be utilized. The answer you're looking is on the main page of Bitcoin's wiki:


If you haven't got it, yet, you're problematic.

ill expand more
censorship resistant,
 - no bank/government can stop bitcoin transaction due to some social political racism or just wanting to be a bother
borderless
 - as long as there is internet, bitcoin can be sent and received anywhere  
fast
 - instant zero-confirm, and average confirm settlement in 10-30mins
online 24/7/365.
 - no downtime
 - no bank/office opening hours
 - no 'down for maintenance' server loss time
the way that its a currency that offers different features that banks dont
 - no ID required to get a private key to store value with
 - no need to explain why you are transacting
 - no need to link phone number to get calls to check with you that its you
 - complete settlement in ~10mins. unlike visa that can be 48 hours
 - no 180 day fund reversal policy (chargeback)
 - instant payment if you accept zero-confirm
 - visa requires you to reveal your spending secret, (long number, expiry, cvv number, name on card)
     - meaning once they have it they can keep withdrawing, multiple times
     - yet bitcoin signatures are unique to each transaction meaning they can only claim what is offered in that one transaction, once
the way that its a currency that offers different less restrictions than banks do
 - no $500 ATM limit
 - no $1000 limit, before being monitored by AML
 - no $10,000 limit before being monitored by AML and tax office
how you can buy things with it
 - hundreds of thousands of retailers/businesses
how you can be the sole controller of transfers
 - private key storage in multiple different ways
how it is irreversible
 - no refund, chargeback that can remove funds without your consent
how its immutable
 - once confirmed its your and only yours
how it does not rely on government involvement
 - no central entity controls the accounting nor decides whats valid/rejectable
how its deflationary, to hedge against inflation
 - buy more loaves of bread in long term future
you can treat it like a 'trust' without having to get a solicitor/lawyer to draw up 'trust documents'
 - just send funds to an address. done
 - use multisig if you want, say 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 people to chair the trust
you can use it like an off-shore tax shelter. store value without having to do any banking shuffling
 - just send funds to an address. done
keep it as a pension pot
 - just send funds to an address. done
assign it as inheritance without having to do complex Will's or contracts
- set a lock on the value that expires at childs X birthday. give him the private key knowing he cant spend until X date

and thats just the simple average joe benefits.

Who cares what you're interested in or not? This is an open platform, and everybody is entitled to share their opinions. If you want everyone to agree with you, build your own goddamn dictatorship.

Although people have given their opinions, you refuse to accept them (for whatever reason) and are trying to impose your own opinion on them. Why is that? Why are you really here?

Guys, stop it now,  :D
I just read the Op and got that the OP is coming here to do a debate, learning is not his main focus.

Kind information, when you people are busy doing debate, in the meantime I'm busy with speculation and buying at the dip.

This controversy is nothing new, it has been debated since the beginning of Bitcoin and will continue to be so in the future.

In where Nocoiners just see nothing but a number, Bitcoiners can see the entire future.  :)

I am sorry as i am unable to answer your questions. The fact is that you do not want to know the reasons/benefit of holding bitcoins so that's why you feel strange seeing bitcoin value grow in the wallet by just staring at it for years and years.

Also there are so many people trying to answer you but you keep on arguing with them without having an intention to agree with their point of view. If you are not willing to understand anything, then what's the point in asking the question ?

Of course, you people are the problem. Because I opened this topic for specific questions, and you are all ignoring them. Instead you are talking about completely irrelevant things. I am not asking about your personal opinions on bitcoin and what bitcoin means to you personally. You have other topics for that purpose. I am not asking how fast I can sell, that is, transfer bitcoin to someone else. Or whatever it's tangible or not. I am not asking about your opinions on me. You are constantly attacking my character. I am simply asking, what actual thing will I get for my money? The ownership of what will I have after purchasing bitcoin? With stocks, I have the ownership of a company. With bonds or fiat currencies I have the ownership of debt. Debt is real. There are actual people that must give me money, good, services or labour to settle the debt. So, what actual thing do I own by holding bitcoin?

You cannot live off of future that you created in your imagination. But only off of what you own. Bitconers hold numbers and own nothing.

To be perfectly honest, anyone who is using Bitcoin purely as a speculative asset and leaves their funds on a custodial exchange doesn't really own anything, in practice.  Is that the point you're not-so-subtly trying to get at?

On the other hand, those who use Bitcoin in the way it was intended to be used will have ownership of space in the ledger.  This in turn grants them financial freedom and independence, which some might argue you can't put a price on.  But you clearly don't care about that, so again, Bitcoin probably isn't the right investment for you.

If you value aesthetics above freedom, I'm sure some morally bankrupt opportunist will be more than happy to sell you some worthless NFTs.  That market exists solely to cater to those "on your level".    :P

I have read the entire thread. Based on all the above, I believe the OP is right and somewhat misunderstood here.

I believe this somewhat summarizes his entire assertion:

Antithesis, I think your thesis is correct. A buyer (or "investor", if you will) gets nothing when they purchase Bitcoins other than numbers in some database with specific properties. That is an absolute fact that is impossible to refute.

How can people live off of "a space in the ledger"? How's that better than pleasing aesthetic senses with a beautiful picture? Btw, I am free. I don't need a space in a database to have freedom.

I've never spoken for my personal opinions towards Bitcoin in this thread. Actually, I challenge you to quote me wherever (you think) I did. Those things I've told you are facts.

Money is debt. You measure this debt in money. Fiat currencies are money, because they're considered by people as currencies. Two individuals could setup their own ledger which would contain their own transactions, in simple “numbers” as you say.

For instance, me and DooMAD. We could create a ledger that starts with 10,000 monetary units and deal by using this as a medium of exchange. Say DooMAD gave me a bar of chocolate, I signed in the ledger that I now own 10 less and he owns 10 more. If more people liked this ledger, it could be considered money. Yes, they're just numbers, but it's a lot easier to transfer the equivalent of ten Teslas by writing down some additional lines, if we're both agreeing on a value, than by transferring the actual vehicles. Therefore, it satisfies for this purpose.

But, that's what I've been telling him for the past page. The problem is that he can't understand that it's a wrong conclusion to consider something meaningless just because it's a number in some database... It satisfies one job. Therefore it has at least one purpose of existence.

an object is just atoms
a sound is just vibrations
a digital number is just pulses of electrons

level up thinking:
atoms can be useful for many things. create and do many things
vibrations can be affect many things. create and do many things
an electron can do many things.

in the right formations
atoms can become life, technology, products, the universe
vibrations can become an alert, a spoken word, music, ultrasound imaging
electrons can become heat, movement, different objects, energy, electronic signals, code, software

if you just want to see things as a number, you might as well see your phone as an atom

Yes, I have read all your comments. I believe you understand the topic well and offer good arguments. However, I do not believe it is necessary to convince the OP of the usefulness or the value of such a system. It seems to me that OP has an understanding of economics, so I agree that he has the right to state his position on the matter. Clearly, Antithesis believes that the benefits of cryptocurrencies are questionable, and I think we should accept this as his subjective opinion and not try to convince him otherwise.

---

Antithesis, you're right here. People cannot live off of or otherwise utilize "a space in the ledger" or "numbers in a database". All they can do is keep the numbers to themselves indefinitely or give them to someone else.

Money is not debt because gold can be money but is not debt. A bond is debt. Fiat currency is debt. When borrowers are granted loans(dollars) and use them to collect goods, services and labour from the market, they are in debt to the market. They owe the market (dollar holders) goods, services and labour.  And they owe the banks the dollars. Then the banks force them(via collaterals) to withdraw dollars to liquidate theirs loans. So they return the goods, services and labour to the market and in that way get the dollars. Now they owe nothing to the market but they owe the banks the dollars. Finally, they pay the banks the dollars and their monetary debt is settled. So fiat currencies are debt not because they are considered debt by people, but because actual people owe something to other actual people. What you "consider" is simply your state of mind and has nothing to do with reality.

So, when I hold fiat currencies I own debt. When you hold bitcoin you own a number in a database. Why would I trade you my ownership of debt for a number? Because you gave it a fancy name?

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise.
Because no one in the world can guarantee you'll be able to go the opposite direction in the future, so all that's left is just a number in a database which has no intrinsic value.

And now one fun question: when you enter a ponzi scheme, you hold scheme membership, but what you own?

There's a hereby misuse of the word “subjective”. I don't accept this as subjective. And as a wise man once said:

Excuse me for this and thank you for correcting me. Yes, not all forms of money are debt. Money is debt only within the modern financial system. Say for instance, your bank account's balance. That's debt, from the bank's side, to you. You can transfer this debt to others and therefore, make it money without withdrawing it.

Yes, everything you described about the debt system is correct. But, debt doesn't change the situation. When I accept to get paid by your debt, I'm supposed to receive my dollars at some point in the future or transfer this debt to someone who will receive those dollars in the future. If you promised to return me monopoly banknotes, that'd also be debt, but I'd refuse, 'cause people don't accept those. I accept to provide you services and sell you products in exchange for pieces of paper or debt of those pieces, because there's a government who's forced their usage.

Anyway, we're not going to ever agree on the debt thing. So here's my question, is it reasonable for some people to not want to deal with debt? What's the problem if two individuals want to accomplish a purchase by the way I described?

Don't open up new topics in the same thread. Let's cover one at a time.

I have no idea. If I had to guess, I'd say: one new experience and a valuable (even if pricey) life lesson. ;)

Although I'm not sure if the "Ponzi scheme" is the correct description. According to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme), the Ponzi scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. Those key characteristics do not seem to be present in cryptocurrencies as far as I know.

money can be many things.. it has been many things in the past.
from stones, tulips, gold, sea shells, notched sticks, silver, copper, nickel
but those things do not always stay as money

money is the common use medium of large communities or nations, while its actively used commonly
for instance a copper pipe is not money. but a copper coin with a legitimate design is money

currency is anything used in trade. but money has to be the main recognised, active and current form of currency.

EG if i went to america with a UK £10 bank note.. knowing its money in the UK.. when i go to america.. they will not accept it as money. they accept dollar as their money.

even though £10, gold, btc are currencies. btc is not mainstream to be nationwide world wide money in the real world, but btc is money in the bitcoin community.

EG
a SDR is money between the IMF and national banks. but SDR is not money at the citizen level

It can be, but in this day and age, it no longer is.  

Gold is now an asset which you can trade in for fiat.  You can't (in any practical sense) go to any retailer and try to spend a troy ounce on your desired goods or services.  I'd love to see the look on the cashier's face if you tried, though.  And what form would you be expecting your change in?  Maybe think it through and get back to us, yeah?

It's almost as though there were a niche that needed to be filled where there was demand for a form of money which shared some of the qualities of gold, such as scarcity, but in a form which is more easily portable, divisible and secure... If only such a thing existed...  ::)

But no, here we are amidst one of the greatest technological achievements of the last 50 years and we are listening to some jack-off making farcical comments about how they can only watch numbers on a screen.  You go right ahead and stick with your luddite money and your antiquated notions of value.  Best of luck to you.

So, let me get this straight. By holding fiat money I have the ownership of debt. And with ownership of debt, I have the following guarantee that, in for e.g. five years, the borrowers will return me the things (goods, services, labour) that I can live off of: a) bank capital b) loan contracts c) borrowers collaterals d) legal enforceability

By holding bitcoin, I have the ownership of a number(monopoly money), and faith that in five years, unknown people will voluntarily trade me things that I can live off of for monopoly money.

And you are trying to convince me that the second deal is better than the first? And all that because someone gave fancy name to monopoly money and because a crypto community and people like franky1 write poems about it?

I meant ponzi in terms of ownership. Crypto holder owns a record in a ledger. Ponzi membership holder also owns a record in some ledger, which verifies his membership. So in both cases holders own nothing they can live off of. But only records. And both holders have faith that someone will voluntarily enter the system so they can exist it, given that no one can live off of records.

1. holding fiat money promises you nothing. a bank note does not earn you interest. infact each year you lose value holding fiat.
    the longer you hold onto a bank note, the less you can buy with it
    also, if you deposit banknotes into a bank. you are giving in your bank note in exchange to allow them to fractional reserve it to create new loans where they might pay you 0.01% of their profits if you leave it with them for a year, but even this is far below inflation, so your still losing

2. bitcoin in 2009 had like a penny of true cost of creation value. where people liked it because it had features that were different to bank notes. it had a purpose/function/benefit/utility(things you ignore). this incentivised more people to want it.(2010+) and so the competition to create it(mining) increased the cost of creating it. which then translated to the market value of acquiring without mining it to increase.

if bitcoin changed where it became useless as a currency. offering nothing better than other currencies where majority of people stopped using it. thus impacting the mining cost, where( instead of $35k-$85k to mine(now)) it became like $2 to mine, then the market rate would come down to a value window of $2-$5.. instead of the current cost,utility cost value window of $35k-$85k

once you understand the cost/value window. your question then becomes why would anyone pay $70k if it can be acquired by some means for atleast $35k(price within a value window)

Of course there are no promises behind fiat money, promises are worthless. Behind fiat there are contracts, collaterals and legal enforceability. That's why I know that the borrowers will always be forced to trade me the things that I can live off of for my fiat. They will always need fiat for their loan repayments. Fiat=loans(debt).

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin. When people are driven by greed, because the prices go up, this faith based deal looks great. But at some point greed will turn into fear, and then you will learn the hard way what it means to base your business on faith. And none of the poems about bitcoin, blockchain, revolution and freedom will save you. No one can live off of database entries. And why would anyone give you a car for a faith based entity? Think about that.

nope. fiat contracts are not about the debt. no one owes you anything. you holding a bank note is not some security to some laon somewhere that someone owes you.
take a bank note to a bank. they wont give you bread loaf value for the bank note. all they do is give you a crisp new copy of the same note., to replace the crumpled, dirty copy.

if you hand in a bank note as a desposit. your bank note then forms a contract where the bank can use your collateral to fractional reserve future debt where the bank profits on the returns. and if your lucky you might get 0.01% for letting them use your bank note you no longer hold(while its in their custody).

check out the zimbabwe dollar. no one had security, the government were not liable to honour value.
once tax and min wage laws were no longer measured in Z$ people stopped using it

the only thing that makes fiat useful (where by it has no other benefits) is because of tax/minimum wage laws that force it into utility.
if people had the choice they would not want to use fiat because the moment they receive it, they have lost value.
either via tax or inflation.

people would prefer to use something deflationary, where just holding it independently increases the value over time.
if it was not for tax/min wage laws, no one would use fiat (its why zimbabwe dollar is now dead, its why people dont use euro's in america)

american dollar is only viable in america because of tax/min wage laws forcing utility. it has nothing to do with any dreamed up liable value or security promise. because there is no liability/security promise.

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get.. dont say promises security liability. actually explain what you would get in return. the us government removed the gold standard 50 years ago.. you are not promised gold anymore
a UK bank notes says now it "promises to pay the bearer the sum of 5 pounds" .. not 5lb of silver... just £5:£5 meaning they only now promise to swap a crumpled piece of paper for a crisp piece of paper..

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get?
the only answers would be:
a crisp new bank note swap for crumpled note. meaning no difference.
a bag of heavy copper coins that might (scrap rate) get you more value, but no one likes to handle them so the effort outweight the value, so they would probably see its coins and swap at face value 1:1 not scrap value.

imagine if bitcoin also made a promise of: it promises you pay the bearer of 1btc, the sum of 1btc or 100,000,000
would you think this was a meaningful promise.. or just a way to clean up its taint(dirtiness)

..
anyway a bank note is not worth the value its printed on.
yet bitcoin has an underlying value of ~$35k(eastern europe/west asia) $85k(expensive countries)

the price is currently near good value world wide, exceptionally good value for those in expensive countries. they can buy it 2-3x cheaper then they can mine it
yes when bitcoin was ~$70k it was 2-3x value and seen as a premium for most and seen as only just good value for expensive countries. but its much better than the dollars 26x devaluation

I have one simple question for you: if a borrower has a loan contact in dollars and is forced via collateral to liquidate it, and I hold these dollars, how will the borrower get the dollars?

Btw, dollars are recorded in the accounting books of the banks as their liability. If the borrower fails to trade their goods, services or labour with me, the bank will seize their property and sell it to me. Because the bank has liability to me. It has to liquidate the open loan with my dollars because the loan is issued in dollars.

Finally, there's no difference between "dollar note" and "dollar deposit". It's is just that the first is the bank's liability written on paper media, while the second is the bank's liability written on digital media. Today, in the age of the internet, people prefer the second.

Advice: stop reading conspiracy theories about the banks.

Maybe some people don't want to be part of a fraudulent, built-to-corrupt system where their money is inflated as there's demand for new loans. Maybe some people just want to use something that leaves room for questioning; that its usage is not forced to satisfy ones' interests; that provides free speech and freedom of choice.

There's a difference between trusting a system and having faith to a system: No one forces you the latter. You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

So, you would rather trade your car, house and bike to anonymous people for a number. And then have faith that in five years other anonymous people will voluntarily give you the equivalence of your things? You would rather do that, than to have a guarantee in the capital of the banks, the loan contacts/collaterals of the borrowers and legal enforceability that the equivalence of your things will be returned? All that because some people in the banking system are corrupted? And because borrowers are "forced" to return you the equivalence of your things?

You know that no one can live off of numbers written on bank notes, bank accounts or blockchain. That's why the banking system ensures those who invested in bank notes or bank deposit, get back the goods, services and labour from the borrowers who at the loans issuing received those things. That's the purpose of collaterals and loan repayment. With loan repayments, the borrowers pay the debt in numbers to the banks and the debt in goods, services and labour to holders of bank notes or bank deposits. So, the banking system protects you, it ensures that you get back the things you can live off of. In the bitcoin system, all you have is faith that you will get your things back. Without other people voluntarily giving you something you are left only with a number. And now the crucial question: once you have voluntarily traded me your house for a mere number, why would I give you the house back? Or other things in the equivalent value?

however bitcoin is an investment asset that has a future. It's very difficult to convince people to buy bitcoin if they don't really understand btc, because only as people who know the world of technology will understand how in the future technology will rule the world. I think gold is more valuable for people who don't understand the world of future technology.

If it satisfies all those people, then yeah, they'll definitely want it in the future. You said it correctly, there's belief. Belief that people will still evaluate it. It's a free market, so there's uncertainty.

You don't mention the downsides, though. The banking system isn't a green meadow. I'll be using a currency that is constantly devaluated by the banks. As said by franky, your money will sooner or later lose value due to inflation, whether you're guaranteed in the capitals or not. The less the required reserve, the more my money can lose value through loans in the long term.

Well, I don't like that. I want a hedge to inflation.

I think an adage is needed;
Despite our disagreements, I proved you wrong. It's very meaningful for some people. You don't agree, because you want us to do it with your way.

Although this is a highly simplified description, you are basically right. This is exactly what all Bitcoin investors have been doing for years. Just as with the Wal-Marts and Macy's of the 1980s and 1990s, people are realizing they can get huge returns by investing in penny stocks (yes, even the internet one) and hoping to strike it rich. Unfortunately, while the Wal-Marts of the 1980s and 1990s had sensible rules around securities and protecting investors, those rules are totally absent in the cryptocurrency industry. It is completely unregulated, and the only way to prove that you have been in compliance is to use the coin's blockchain. So even though many penny stocks were fraudulent or otherwise had other problems, investors could use the SEC to settle disputes and do their due diligence. Cryptocurrencies have no such tools and no such oversight.

But that doesn't mean that every cryptocurrency is a scam or that all are a scam. Like penny stocks, not every blockchain project is a bubble that is destined to pop. There are legitimate ICOs out there and legitimate blockchain projects. The technology that runs Bitcoin and Ethereum is enormously promising. The financial benefits to using a blockchain technology to secure transactions are, in my opinion, clear. For example, Bitcoin's great strength is that it is widely used and accepted worldwide as a means of payment, and is highly protected by a large number of miners, which makes it much harder to hack or double spend. I think people will continue to invest in legitimate technology projects and blockchain projects that have real utility. Just as people continue to invest in the stock market and expect good returns, I think investors will continue to buy into cryptocurrencies.

I would rather have the guarantee that in 10 years I will have 90 percent of the equivalence of my house back, than faith in anonymous people. For me, 10 percent inflation in 10 years is not a problem. Although I never keep my money for so long. How do you know that in 10 years people will give you even 1 percent the value of your house that you traded for bitcoin today?

You cannot compare crypto and stocks. In stocks you have the ownership of capital. And you can live off of capital. In crypto all you have is ownership of a number. And off of number you cannot live.

@the people trying to have a normal conversation with @Anthises, you might wanna check this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5228148.0) to see who are you dealing with. He is a known troll from various forms that comes every once in a while and spread his bullshit, hoping that some people will swallow his bait and try to have a conversation with him while he has no intentions whatsoever to listen other side. His mind was set long time ago, he just comes here to troll.

Maybe not, but that's the closest thing we have since there's never been anything like it before. By the same measure, we can't compare it to numbers in an excel spreadsheet either, right? Because, obviously, it has some value (at least for now) whereas the numbers in excel are pretty much worthless.


Yes, but that's poor people thinking. Each investment comes with certain risks; the question is how much risk you are willing to take. In the case of cryptocurrencies, history has shown that the risk has certainly paid off, but it is definitely not for the fainthearted.  :D

Btw, what do you mean, "I never keep my money for so long"? What do you do with it, if it's not a secret?


The truth is, we can't. No one can. That's the fun part.  ;D

But, you don't. That's the funny part. No one tells you that you'll have that 90% in 10 years in the same way no one tells me that people won't use Bitcoin in 10 years. There's uncertainty, but I bet for the latter.

I don't think there's one. Initial coin offering isn't fair distribution, so in my opinion, it already starts illegitimately.

There's no value in numbers. Just because you traded your house for a number doesn't make number valuable. Value is in the things that you can live off of.

What do I do with my banking numbers? I invest them either in the ownership of capital(stocks) or in contracts for difference(CFD), betting on the prices of various market instruments, even bitcoin. Be aware that bitcoin CFD is not a number, but a contract with a broker to pay me the difference in the settlement price between the open and closing trades. I would never buy an actual bitcoin because this is like giving your things for free to someone.

Loan contracts, the capital of the banking system and collaterals of the borrowers tell me that I'll have that 90% in 10 years.

The world is full of such people who are only good at throwing negativity around them. These should be ignored because their contribution to society is zero. Just let their poor ego consume themselves.

Nope. It may tell you the amount of dollars you'll have, but not their future purchasing power.


At this point, I don't think there's a point to discuss with you. I spoke with some valid facts, you considered them invalid. You've stuck on the “just a number”. By the same reasoning, a Tesla is “just a car”, a pizza is “just food” and you “just a human being”. Well, sorry, but some people understand the world differently than you do.

Purchasing power is just a concept. Useless concept. You cannot compare dollars from 1930s with the ones that are in circulation today. The loans from 1930s have long been paid off. Today's dollars are maybe from the loans that were issued last week. So you are comparing apples and oranges.

And how will I compare 2022's dollars with 2032's? You're contradicting yourself.

Not via purchasing power.

Okay, so you playing stupid now? Don't make things up to fit your needs.
In simple terms, value is the market price of something (or its monetary worth, according to the most-common definition).

value noun
val·​ue | \ ˈval-(ˌ)yü  \

Definition of value
1: the monetary worth of something : MARKET PRICE
2: a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
3: relative worth, utility, or importance
4: something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable
5: a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

funny part is..
antithesis thinks he can live off of shares. he thinks he can buy a pizza using shares..
.. good thing i have btc, i can buy pizza with btc.

while he starves himself investing in shares, i will feed myself using btc

Maybe he even tried to live off of the sunset pictures? I hope they weren't lead-based oil paints (which would actually explain some things).

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/lead/health.html

That's language, semantics, definitions. The fact is that people can live off of capital. Off of numbers in a database, they cannot. No matter how someone define words this fact won't change.

I think nothing. I have opinions on nothing. I am simply stating facts: off of capital people can live. Off of numbers no one can. Btw, we are not discussing whether you can buy or sell something. We are discussing that when you hold fiat money the whole banking system protects you by ensuring that the borrowers provide you the things you can live off of. That stocks are the ownership of such things. And that crypto/ bitcoin is the ownership of things no human being on Earth can live off of. Nor anyone in bitcoin system protects you like banks do.

Yes, people can live off of sunset picture because it pleases their aesthetic senses

It's advisable to mention that there are many kinds of value, e.g., personal value, intrinsic value, market value. Value should not be unconsciously translated to price.

They can neither eat the shares. There has to be a supposed agreement between the parties, whether that's legally enforced or not. You don't like that. You've invested your time to create these videos that you've become biased. You keep thinking of Bitcoin as a number in a database, but you don't comprehend that it helps some people's lives.

Maybe that's the problem with you. You don't believe that people can live all by themselves. You remind me of this:

That's a hasty generalization. One can live from a variety of numbers in the database, but what matters is what those numbers represent.
You keep arguing with flawed, deceptive, and false arguments that can easily be proven wrong.


This must be the stupidest thing I've read today.

Sharers are not intended to be eaten but to prove the ownership of capital. Bitcoin proves the ownership of numbers. That's the point.

Why is it that you view me as a problem? I am here to state facts. The real problem is with you people. You gave up things you can live off of, or you give up membership in banking system that ensures you get such things back, only to be members of the system where you hold numbers. The demonstrate the stupidity of this system consider the following example. Let's say you are the richest person on Earth and you have land, buildings, machines,.... all over the world. Now let's assume you trade literally all that, including food, for all the bitcoins in existence. After that you are the owner of a number "19,000,000". Let's assume no one in the market is interested in buying these numbers any more. What can you do with "19,000,000? Let's say you get hungry and need something to eat. The guy next to you has pizza. You offer him your number, and he responds: "pizza I can eat. With your number I can do nothing. I'll pass the deal."  And now what? Is there something like banking system to ensure you get back the things you can live off of? No. Is there any capital that you own to produce such things? No. So where's all the bitcoin value that you people are talking about? Where's the freedom, if now you have to work only to get food, only to meet your basic needs? You literally have nothing. Do you now get what does it mean having protection in the banking system or in capital? Or are you still going to make excuses for the system of number holders?

Neither is Bitcoin intended to be observed in your screen. Also, both are capital if two individuals say so.

I think I was clear enough when I implied that I don't trust the banking system for living. That I trust something which promotes principles proportional to my character, such as free speech, freedom of choice and free markets. Understand that people may have different socio-political beliefs.

Let's assume you're the owner of a number $40,000,000,000. But, no one wants those anymore, because the socio-political regime is overthrown. What can you do with $40,000,000,000, which can be inflated anytime by the way in contrast with your 19,000,000 BTC.

If we're going to take completely hypothetical scenarios, be my guest.

Number $40,000,000,000 is not created by a regime, but by the banking system, via granting loans and protecting them with the collaterals of the borrowers. So, if no one on the market wants those numbers anymore, borrowers are forced to use them. Otherwise the banking system will seize their collaterals and trade it with me, given banks are liable to liquidate the open loans.

Regarding bitcoin and what is intended for. Off of intentions you cannot live.

no no and no
thats not the banks charter, thats not the banks contract. thats not the banks job

if you go to a bank they dont give you bread. they just ask for your crumpled bank notes. and give you back crisp bank notes for the same number(if you meet their conditions).

'savings accounts' is where you give them crumpled bank notes. and they store the number in another form(electronic). they dont need to keep X% of paper bank notes on hand at any time, but some do.
meaning to stop bank runs of everyone asking for a withdrawal at once. they limit, question or delay requests.
its why ATM's have limits of $500. its why if you do more then 6 bank note withdrawals a month from a savings account the banks charge you for it.
they question the reasons if the amount is above a certain level. they say you have to make a pre-arranged request taking days to finalise if its above a certain level. to pressure and give you headaches to not withdraw it all in one go.

banks in america are not obligated to instantly pay you on your demand. the charter actually does the opposite. it allows the banks to delay, limit or deny instant demands

savings account is NOT where they "USE" your deposit amount as a loan to someone else. instead they have a separate charter where a charter allows a bank to 'create new money' for the person getting a loan as a separate charter (nothing to do with your savings account terms and conditions.) based on how much volume a bank holds.

EG say a bank has $100billion savings account deposit balance on its books.
a bank has to hold $10bill as bank notes.
but can create upto $90bill of new money
this mean while all savings account balance still appears as $100bill digitally.  loan accounts of other customers can go upto $90b digitally. and the bank has $10b in bank notes physically ($200b savings'balance'+loan 'balance'+paper bank notes)

they are not actually giving away your savings balance to a loan recipient. a loan recipient is not liable to you.
your deposit balance still appears as $100b even when 90bill loans are created
if a loan defaults. it does not affect the savings account holder. it just means the bank loses out on its potential future profit from the terms of the $90m loan allotment

anyway
the bank can do many things with the $90m separate loan allotment amount
1. split up and offer parts of this $90b loan allotment to other customers in the forms of bank branded overdraft, bank branded credit, or bank branded mortgages

2. sell part of the allotment to other companies. for a small percentage so that (non savings deposit) credit companies can offer credit/mortgages to their customers

..
there are a few other charter details. like its not exactly $90bill a year they can offer out in one go. its more complex. EG like if they want to allocate $90bill over a 30 year mortgage period. they can only offer out $3billion per year. so that it all sums up that if all mortgages are paid in full  over time it equates back to the $90b allotment
..
anyway. this $90b is not the savings account security/property/liability.... its the banks liability/property

a savings account owner cannot walk upto a person that got a loan and say "give me my money back, its mine"
its not theirs.. the loanee has a contract with the bank. not the savings account customer.

its not a Loanee   <->  savings account depositor contract

its not a Loanee   <->bank<->  savings account depositor contract

the closest visualisation is
                                                   ┌>treasury                
loanee <->credit bank subsidiary<->private insurance
                                                  └>bank
the loanee has a contract with the credit bank subsidiary
separately. different contract
the credit bank subsidiary has a contract to pay insurance on the loan allotment.(private company)
the credit bank subsidiary has a contract to pay tax on the loan allotment.(treasury)
the bank gets to keep the rest
..    
separately.                    ┌<bank        
saver <->deposit bank<->FDIC
separately. different contract
the BANK has to pay insurance on the deposit allotment.(FDIC)

a saver has a contract with deposit bank
a loanee has a contract with credit bank subsidiary
but a saver does not have a contract with a credit bank subsidiary

---

because a bank is offering its product to subsidiary which offer to loanee's... the loanee needs to pay THE BANK(indirectly) in the future.
so imagine all collected up(paid in full) $100bill loans returned in a year
the bank subsidiary gets $5b
out of that the bank subsidiary has to pay
800m-1.2b to the treasury
2b to the private company
the bank keeps 2.8b-3.2b (its less because the subsidiary also keeps profit)

then separately to entice/ incentivise savings depositors to not "bank run"/withdraw.. the bank may offer its $100b depositors
60m-810m (0.06%-0.81%)
then separately to entice/ incentivise savings depositors to not "bank run"/withdraw.. the bank insures depositors by paying the FDIC
830m(0.83%) (for a $250k cap per customer)

where by the bank keeps 1.16b-2.13b out of the 5bill loan interest returned via the subsiduary

..
your savings account is not secured against a loan. it has nothing to do with a loan.
your savings account is insured for 'upto' $250k
meaning if you have $1m
a. spread over 4 accounts($250k each)
the $1m will be insured
b. in one account($1m in 1 account)
the FDIC will only honour $250k.. and the rest of your $750k is lost if bank failed

it has nothing to do with any contract with loans
a savings account is not contracted to a loanee, not secured by a loanee. not liable to a loanee

obviously the bank only makes profits from loans. and thus can only afford to pay depositor insurance by doing loans.
but that does not mean a deposit/bank note is securitised/contracted/linked to a loan. there is no contracted obligation between a bank note/deposit account balance to a loanee

a loanee does not owe the depositor anything. because the savings account balance does not disappear when loans are made.
the loanee does not 'get' funds of a savings account. they are separate balances

where by as said at the start. a bank with 100b in deposits .. will have a combined loan, deposit balance and bank note of $200bill

---

---

with all that said..
BANK BALANCE in a deposit account is insured by upto $250k per account
but guess what.
in the 2008 financial crisis. the FDIC did not want to let banks fail to then have to pay out the insurance.
no one was able to file claims to activate the insurance clause.
even if it was activated. the funds go to the bank. not the citizen
(thus the insurance is meaningless as its never used)

what actually happened in 2008 was the treasury 'printed' its own money and gave it to the banks.
so now the banks have the value.
the treasury is now in debt by trillions. and its now the people that owe the treasury, in tax, to attempt to draw down the national debt.
yep the bank is getting tax from people. (meaning their $100b deposits are now worth $80b(20% tax)) the treasury then pays banks that bought the bonds a small % of the $1trill 'quantitative easing'/bail out. so again the banks are making profit while peoples money is becoming worth-less and worth .. less

your bank note is not insured.
your bank deposit balance probably will never activate its insurance clause
instead, government will just create debt which its citizens have to pay back, even if they personally didnt ask for a loan.

if you want an explanation of this process i can give it. but i think i have wrote enough for now.

Consider quote a part of my message and not the entire message. It'd be less annoying.

Which is regulated by the regime. I can't setup a federal reserve system as that'd be illegal. It's legal for the banks, because the government says so.

I'm taking an example where they haven't borrowed anything. I own every cent of all the banks and I'm ready to lend to anyone who'll ask for new loans. This is what you're doing too with the BTC.

If they haven't borrowed anything then you have zero $ numbers on the market.

Regarding the first. Cars are also regulated by the regime, houses also. Ever heard of construction-related laws? But what that has to do with our discussion? What is your point? I am simply saying that in bitcoin all you have is faith in unknown people. You hope that once you give up the things you can live off of, these people will voluntarily return you the equivalence of such things. With fiat you have the whole banking system and legal enforceability to ensure you get such things back. In what universe is the former better than the latter? How rational is to think that a complete stranger will just voluntarily give you a car for a worthless number just because, in the past you also voluntarily gave your car for such a number? How long do you think this system can last?

Look, I'm not one of those super pro Bitcoin evangelists that say Bitcoin is everything and then some. It's definitely got its limitations but you're really not being creative if you think you can't use Bitcoin for anything other than to hold and look at (I don't even open my wallet to look at it, I just know roughly how much it holds and then only see its amount every now and then when I'm adding to it).

I've never owned gold before (to use the example you used) but that's less because I wasn't interested and more because of access. Now if you had gold right now, tell me how soon do you think you'd be able to use it for the specifics you mentioned? How soon and how easily would you be able to find a buyer to liquidate your gold too, in the specific amount you had?

With Bitcoin, I could do all this in mere minutes, either directly with my BTC or selling it right away to someone local (also in mere minutes), if I needed to:
- pay for bills
- make a purchase
- send emergency money
- convert my assets

I want aesthetics? In my last post before this, I explained how I bought a pretty gold-plated wallet to store a bit for someone to hold and admire (again, not my thing but hey, whatever rocks your Bitcoin boat).

The whole point of this topic is the question why would I buy bitcoin in the first place and why would I pay the ask price, and not whether I can sell it.

Who needs an entire universe?  I can name countries as adequate examples:

Bolivia, Bosnia, Georgia, Nicaragua, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, etc.  

Legal enforceability did nothing to stop their national currencies failing.  You were not able to live off those currencies.  They all became worthless due to hyperinflation.

I asked you a simple question yesterday: a borrower is obligated to pay his dollar loan, and I have dollars, either deposit or notes. How will he get the dollars, that is, worthless numbers? "Protection" that I am talking about means the banking system forces the borrowers to trade me goods, services and labour for worthless numbers. It has nothing to do with the things you are describing.

screw it i wont wait for antithesis to rattle off "fiat is secure/liable to loans"

ill explain the insurance
imagine all us banks had a combined $1.48trill of savings deposited
$1,148,000,000,000 ($3580 (https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-savings-account-balance/)  X 328m pop)

pets say there are 10 main banks.
and lets imagine
9 banks had $116.44b deposited (+104b loan allocation) each
1 bank had $100b (+90b loan allocation)

and lets say its this 1 bank of $100b that was going to fail(just not yet, they simple sent the warning).

account depositors are not guaranteed to get a cheque sent out within 2 days of the bank failing.

the bank cannot just put its hand up and say to the FDIC "i give up, pay our customers"

first the failing bank need to find its own ways to 'make money' to cover any losses. this usually means going to other banks direct and asking for loans to cover deposits. to then separately be able to create its own contracts to its own loanees to try to get profit to pay back the failing banks loan to the other banks

if this fails and the other banks refuse to loan to the failing bank.. then the failing bank can approach the FDIC.. as a last resort

the government can instead
'bail out' the bank (via treasury(aka tax))
sell the bank to one or more of the other 9 banks
and if both those fail.. then third option is that deposit account holders can get a cheque via the FDIC insurance
but this third option NEVER happened in 2008

what actually occured in a couple examples of 2008 was:
A) the treasury would create a contract(bond) offering $105b back over 7 years for $100b upfront ($15bill each year for 7 years)
this contract(bond) allows the 9 banks to buy up some of those bonds. where the 9 banks collectively can use their ~loan allotment. to 'print'  collectively $100b. where the treasury then hands that $100b to the failing bank. to become viable again.
leaving the treasury with 0 for itself. meaning it has to charge more tax on citizens to find $15b a year to pay the 9 banks back

B) the FDIC organised with the 9 other banks to take on the deposit accounts of the failing bank
where by if evenly split, each of the 9 banks became:
9 banks had $127.55b deposited (+114b loan allocation)

im over simplifying here
but the point is
the dollar is not as secure as you think
the chances of you actually getting a viable cheque from the FDIC in the mail is not really a feature that is used.
what actually happens is just digital shifting of 1:1 numbers from one bank to another

the bank or the FDIC will not hand you bread if a bank fails.
firstly bank deposits of 1148 are not worth 1148, because people pay tax, meaning even before you get to spend your bank balance your already at a loss of 20% meaning(229.6b) means the buying power(value) people have was become 918.4b of 1148b
yep if your employer says you have a salary of $1,148 a month. you can only spend $918.4 of it because the taxman took his cut

then if a bank fails:
(ignoring how the 20% tax is spent and just for simplicity say it just re-enters population deposits later via public spending)
because now the government need $244.6b to cover usual public spending(229.6) and the $15b loan payment
thats a change from 20% tax to 21.4% (1..4%($15b) goes to the banks not back to population)
after the bailout becomes
y1 903.4 of 1148 because now the government need $244.6b to cover public spending(229.6) and the $15b loan payment
y2 888.4 of 1148
y3 873.4 of 1148
y4 858.4 of 1148
y5 858.4 of 1148
y6 843.4 of 1148
y7 828.4 of 1148

meaning a 8.7% of deposits bailout(1148-100) causes inflation of 10.86% (100/828.4 x 918.4) over 7 years

where by the 'banks' have a combined balance sheet of
$1148b deposited +1027b loan allocation + 114.8 bank note =2289.8 on the books(in circulation)
but people can only spend 828.4 of value = 37.157% VALUE of that combined circulation

if that 2.29 trillion on the bank books(in circulation) could be 916billlion bread loaf value pre bailout (2.29t / $2.50 a loaf)

meaning. you are not going to get combined full population cheques for 916b bread loafs if the dollar failed (2.296t (all $ in circulation))
meaning. you are not going to get combined full population cheques for 459b bread loafs if the dollar failed (1.148t (just deposit balance))
you are not guaranteed a cheque for combined full population of just value of 331b bread loaf if the dollar fails (828.4b value of deposits)

peoples 'money' they can actually spend post bailout would still APPEAR as 1.148t still in bank deposits but:
 only buy 331billion bread loaf value even though there is 2.29t 'in combined circulation'
 only buy 331billion bread loaf value even though the deposits alone was 459b bread before the bailout

you are not going to get a cheque. instead going to get a new account for combined population 1148 deposit accounts with a different bank. where everyone can only enough deposit/cash to maybe buy 331b bread loaves, instead of 459b if the bank fail didnt happen

in short.
account balance swapped 1:1 from failed bank to viable banks. but the value of that 1148b deposit has declined to 828.4b spending power after tax.

---

and thats why in 1900 a $1 could buy 26x more things than a $1 can buy now. because the insurance does not work to protect value. governments and banks even avoid using the insurance, to instead make people more unvalued.

I think that this just shows how ignorant and ill-informed you really are. Bitcoin numbers are nothing but proof of capital ownership.
How do you define capital, anyway?

---

The problem is that the OP probably does not even know where those countries are on the world map, let alone be familiar with their monetary systems. And hyperinflation may as well be science fiction to him.

you as a dollar holder are not obligated to give him your dollar for him to pay it back to the bank
you as a dollar holder are not contracted with him to request dollar from him to settle the banks debt
you as a dollar holder are not secured to receive a dollar from him when he pays the bank
if he fails to pay and the bank gets in trouble. your not guaranteed a $10 cheque from the government insurance

the bank does not use your dollar to pay him in a loan. thus he does not owe you.
banks CREATE new money for loans, not swap old money around

he can pay the bank via many means. but that contract is between him and the bank. not you
he can go abroad. and work on an african gold mine. and get paid euros. and a euro bank can convert that to dollars to pay his loan..
meaning never interacting with you, meaning he does not need to touch a dollar to repay

he can become a bitcoin miner, mine some rewards and go to an exchange and then pay off the bank loan.. again nothing do to with you
he can get a job or manufacture something, charge payment in many forms or such. again nothing to do with you.

---

maybe big numbers are too big to imagine.. lets simplify it

if you have $10 bank note. there is no insurance. if you lose it or have it stolen banks wont reimburse you. its your loss

if you deposit it. the bank keeps $1 bank note in a vault. puts $10 into a digital balance,.
and separately due to a contract THE BANK has with government and other private banks. the bank can also create another balance account for someone else for another $9 (meaning upto $30 in circulation in different forms)
.. this loan creation charter is not a contract between you and the bank. nor you and the government nor you and the borrower

your bank note has no contract where by you are part of the $10 deposit balance + $1 bank note vault part
your bank note has no contract where by you are part of the $10 deposit balance + $1 bank note + $9 loan account part

your bank agreement is that you put in 10, you can get out 10
crumpled note 10:10 crisp note.. that is all (and in many cases they can charge you for that service)
...
lets say from this separate $9 allotment 2 people (a, b) takes a loan for $5 and $4 respectively.
a. interest is 5% meaning after a year he pays THE BANK  $5.25
b. interest is 5% meaning after a year he pays THE BANK  $4.20

the bank cancels out the $5 and $4(that was in circulation) so that it can reuse it as $9 for new loans
and the bank keeps the $0.45
with this though.
the bank owes another private bank insurer an insurance premium on the $9 allotment(separate from deposits) its allowed to play with
the bank has also obligations with the FDIC to pay an insurance premium on deposits
the bank also wants to pay you something for not withdrawing your deposit.
but these 3 things are not contracts with you.

these three things do not bind you to the loan account via the 3 contract path.
they are separate contracts for separate services the bank has with separate entities
banks are not obligated to pay you interest. they can change the terms of accounts conditions as they please
its why banks used to be generous with a 5% incentive a couple decades ago but now only pay silly 0.05%
you have no security/guarantee of getting interest. because the agreement allows them to change the terms
..
to incentivise you to not withdraw your 10 the bank will put limits on daily spending. charge you if you spend too much, too often,  and also offer a bit of a bonus if you keep it in for a year(if they chose to)

this is not security to you. this is just a way that if they can keep your money. it allows them to profit with the new balance in the other account they created(out of nothing)

if the bank was to fail. the government wont send you a cheque instantly for $10 or send 4 loaves of bread(value rate at deposit)
what they do instead is shift the failed banks accounts to other banks. so you simple get Bank A 10:10 bank B

whereby the cost of the swap ends up that your buying power diminishes from 4 loaves of bread to less loaves of bread.

the 2008 banking crises shown millions of people lost out directly and all americans value diminished due to the inflation caused by the bailout

if $10 could buy you 5 loaves of bread in 2008.. i can guarantee you now. withdrawing $10 now wont get you 5 loaves now. and i guarantee you you wont get 4 loaves in the near future. and also.. if your bank fails. the chances of you filing a claim to get a FDIC cheque is super small. they would prefer to get the country to pay more tax and just shift balance sheets around to other banks. than pay out the insurance

so dont think that you will get a guaranteed cheque from the FDIC if your bank fails.
and dont think you can still buy 4 loaves(todays value) with your future $10 in a different bank account that took over yours

Once they pay their loans, the debt is repaid, but the money supply remains the same. Isn't it? Anyway, I think we're missing the point here. You're asking me why wouldn't I want the dollar, I'm telling you that it's constantly inflated from the near-zero limit of required reserve. You then ask me why would I want a currency that is used by anonymous people, I'm telling you that it's a hedge to inflation.

You asked why would a person buy Bitcoin; you've already gathered a lot of answers. Why can't you admit there are valid?

Their definition would definitely contain the following: Is there a law which will enforce you to use it? That's capital.

But I'm telling you in my answer why you would buy Bitcoin (as opposed to gold, as one of the examples you gave).

Since we're not going to discuss whether or not gold or Bitcoin would be more "valuable", how easily you can USE it (or in the case of gold, stocks, or oil or any other type of security, to liquidate it) actually becomes a very valid reason to buy Bitcoin.

As I mentioned, I couldn't even easily buy gold even if I wanted to. I also probably wouldn't easily be able to buy most types of securities because of my own rather flexible (even vague) nationality and jurisdiction. Possibly harder for others living in other jurisdictions. None of this matters in the case of Bitcoin.

I'll give one very present use case fleeing war refugees who have to survive weeks at sea -- why would they preserve their wealth with gold, wheat, oil, or sunset picture which they have no means of transporting or protecting on a long dangerous journey (not to mention finding someone to buy it off them), when they could instead ensure if they were to arrive at their destination of refuge/asylum, Bitcoin?

Irrelevant. All dollars come on the market by borrowers collecting goods, services and labour from people and all dollars are withdrawn from the market by borrowers returning these things to people. It all functions only because the banks force borrowers to repay their loans. In other words, the banks protect people. Your rants are irrelevant in that regard.

The following remain purposely unanswered.

bitcoin comes with a base value window due to its mining cost(variable due to regional cost differences). where no one wants to mine at a loss and so no one tries selling at a loss
the acquirer than has his acquisition costs and he too does not want to make a loss

the market price sits somewhere between the cheap/premium value window

bank loans have NO upfront cost. banks literally print the money out of no where.
banks then ask for it back plus X% extra, where the literally destroy the capital returned(to re allot themselves with loan capacity for future loans) and keep just the x% they use the x% to cover the banks costs from other services they offer

a loan being made has no contract with anyone else but the borrower and the bank
a borrower does not owe anything to the general population. all he owes is the bank

when you set up a savings deposit account.. there is no mention, no term or condition that mentions your funds being contracted out to a loan.

the funds of the loan are not general population funds redistributed

Two people can trade house for a grain of sand. That doesn't make the latter valuable but one of the people irrational.

Bitcoin is created out of thin air via simple program function. No mining is going on. After POW, the program simply pays you with a worthless number. I, as a buyer am asking why would I give you anything for it? I don't care how much electricity you spend to provide POW. That's your problem.

Regarding fiat, you keep talking about irrelevant things and ignore the only important one.

The grain of sand example again. This discussion has got to the point where it restarts. It's a loop. You call irrational people who evaluate differently than you do, because they may have a different treatment.

Welcome to my troll list.

I absolutely agree with what this guy is saying. At this point, its just basically a troll who is not interested in investing in Bitcoin anyway.

If you have made up your mind, then thats that. Or perhaps you are having self doubts when it comes to finally buying in? A lot of people like that finally decide to buy Bitcoin and panic sell when things go downwards. They push the blame on Bitcoin, instead of having a bad mental state that they produced themselves. And all that bitterness just gathers and becomes larger when Bitcoin goes up without them, again.

The original poster does not seem serious about investing. No point in giving him advice for basic questions that can easily be googled.

Also, he will find so many reasons why he will not buy bitcoin if he is not really into btc. But if you want to get a hold of btc, whether small or big investments, there's no reason for anyone to convince him because him alone can do the research about btc or crypto. We are already in this digital age where basically you can educate yourself by simple google search. Much better if no one is convincing you because at the end of the day, it is your money and it is your responsibility to take care of your assets.

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise. But your problem is that you keep asking the same questions over and over again. What do you hope to accomplish with this topic?


It's just your opinion. What you find irrelevant may not be irrelevant to others. Try to be a little more open-minded.

bitcoin is created out of a complex program function that costs alot of electricity to compute, people want to get paid for that complex and expensive work

regards to fiat. you keep talking about irrelevant and non existent securities and liabilities, where you think you are owed or guaranteed something. i showed you that you are not owed anything bar a service of swapping a crumbled note on deposit for a crisp note on withdrawal, where the banks can charge you for this service.
borrowers do not owe you anything, your value is not given to borrowers

no one got a FDIC cheque in the post when the banks failed in 2008
what they got was their value was devalued and now paying extra tax or getting less public services due to banks failing in 2008.

---

.. getting back to bitcoin because you pretend to want to know how the value is established

its not actually just 2 people wanting it and they both pick a random number and find a middle ground

its actually where those that have coin know the cost of their acquisition. and they will refuse to sell at a loss, obviously

if they fresh mined the coin in 2010. the difficulty of the math was cheap. meaning it had a $0.01 to $0.10 cost depending on electric costs around the world

ok ill make some things simple
in say 2010. imagine there were 120 people mining bitcoin at the same time.
lets say in fairness to randomness. each person had equal strength computers so all had the same equal chance
30 machines in china,
30 machines in america,
30 machines in the UK,
30 machines in germany,

because there are only ~6 blocks an hour. it takes a 20 hour period to cover each person getting their chance hit.

meaning they are using 20 hours of electric to get 50coins in 2010
in china at 4cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 2cent an hour and $0.40 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=0.8c/coin
in america at 12cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 6cent an hour and $1.20 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=2.4c/coin
in the UK at 18cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 9cent an hour and $1.80 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=3.6c/coin
in germany at 38cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 19cent an hour and $3.80 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=7.6c/coin

so around the world people could mine for between the value window of 0.8c-7.6c per coin

now lets imagine no one wants to sell their coin at a loss
germany wont make an offer for less than 8cent
the UK wont make an offer for less than 4cent
america  wont make an offer for less than 3cent
china wont make an offer for less than 1cent

lets say america tried to sell it for 10cents. .. no one is buying because everyone on the planet can mine for under 8cent. so no deal
then say america tried to sell it for 9cents. .. no one is buying because everyone on the planet can mine for under 8cent. so no deal
then say america tried to sell it for 8cents. .. someone in germany cant be bothered mining so takes the slight premium. so 8cent. deal

now what happens is people start to see it has a price.
and people in china can see they can 8x their cost. so they start using 4x machines
and people in america can see they can 3.3x their cost. so they start using 2x machines
and people in america can see they can 2.2x their cost. so they start using 1.5x machines
people in germany are breaking even so they dont bother adding more machines


now the landscape of machines is
120 machines in china,
60 machines in america,
45 machines in the UK,
30 machines in germany,
totalling 255 machines, meaning 42hours 30minutes for fairness chance for all

so costs are now
in china 1.7c/coin
in america 5.1c/coin
in the UK 7.6c/coin
in germany 16.2c/coin

china, america, the UK can still sell at 8cent and make a profit.
but now germany stop mining because the market is cheaper to buy than it is to mine.
so germany just buy coin. buying up all the coin at 8c available
because germany are willing to buy for anything below their mining cost of 16c. and germany are high demand. america pushes up its price to 9c, 10cent to see where the demand dips

lets say it plateaus at 14cent
now because the market has a value window of 1.7cent-17 cent. but the ATH is 14cent
because china can make 8x again they again 4x their machines, america 2.5x its machines and UK dont expand its machines
germany doesnt mine this week, they just buy coin, as its easier and cheaper
machines in china, become 480
machines in america, become 150
machines in the UK, stay at 45
totalling 675 machines meaning 112.5 hours mining for each to have a chance

so costs are now
in china 2.25c/coin
in america 6.75c/coin
in the UK 10.125c/coin

in germany if they were to mine it would cost them 21cent
so the value window is now 2.25c-21.37c

imagine all american coins got sold at 14cent. and demand is depleting because germans had enough
UK and china try selling coins at 14cent.and as they run out of the coins they hoarded all week. the price also depletes due to filling depleting demand, so say the price settles down to 11cent
its still between the 2-21c value window. but the price inside that window is not as much as the 14cent ATH

because china can still 3x and make a profit at 11cen. china 2x their machines. but the UK dont bother mining this week, america doesnt add more
machines in china, become 960
machines in america, stays at 150
taking 185 hours for each machine to have a chance hit

china 3.7c/coin (its not 4.5c thanks to UK dropping out and US not multiplying  )
america 11.1c/coin (thanks to UK dropping but no thanks to china for doubling up )
because the price is 11cent and america cost is 11.6cent. they buy instead of expand machines.
the price rises to 12cent

if uk mined 16.6c
if germany mined 35c

now the market has any left over german buyers still wanting more coin
UK still wants coin
so UK and germany buy coin.

if the price rises to new ATH UK starts mining again.
news hits the media about bitcoin and now new speculators that dont know the complexities of mining just want to buy coin. so the price moves up to above 20cent. UK starts mining again. and the price moves forward. as does the mining cost.  which then brings up the value window

---

pre-empting your repeated questions:
why are they buying it?... because it has a cost. which some regions find it cheaper to buy it rather then mine it
why are they buying it? because bitcoin does something banks dont do the same way.
why are they buying it? it offers lots of features and benefits banks cant offer.

Therefore not everyone understands and invests in Bitcoin because it takes a good understanding of Bitcoin itself so that we know the pluses and advantages over other investments. People who invest in Bitcoin or other cryptos must dare to act and be responsible for the assets that they have and not everyone can do it well. I think Bitcoin investment is preferable to other investments if we can manage it well and for security issues so far Bitcoin is safe if we can store it well. so it all depends on each individual to utilize Bitcoin how to get profit.

not just mining, not just exchange buying. other ways are for instance become a merchant

if you have 1btc at $41k
and you know a dropshipper(wholesaler) who accepts btc.
buy 41000 t-shirts at 0.00002439 each ($1)
set up a BTC t-shirt site
selling shirts for profit 0.00012195 each ($5)
if you only sell 8200 t-shirt. you break even and get your 1btc back
if you sell all 41,000 t-shirt. you get 5btc  x5

if you dont like t-shirt and dont have $41k to spare, but do have $4.1k and prefer to sell coffee
with 0.1btc find a coffee wholesaler where 0.1btc buys you 20,500 cups of coffee
meaning cost 0.00000488 per cup (20cent per spoonful)
set up a cafe. selling coffee
selling it at  0.00004880 per cup ($2 per coffee)

even if you sell only 10% (2050 cups) you break even to get your 0.1btc back
if you sell all coffee supply (20500 cups) you break even to get your 1btc x10

Yes, people can behave irrational and stupid when driven by greed or fear. This is known phenomenon. Giving a house for a grain of sand is a stupid behavior. Giving a house for a number as well. The same is true for giving your debt ownership (fiat) for a place in a database. Here, I was asking you people why would I do that, why would I make irrational or stupid trades. And still, I got no answer. That's because no one can provide rational explanation for a behavior based on greed or fear.

It's not about convincing me of anything. I am simply asking you for a rational reason to accept offers in the bitcoin market. I don't buy on greed nor sell on fear. I don't trade blindly. With CFDs I am betting on the price based on supply/demand areas on charts. But that's buying contracts from a broker. Bitcoin is not a contract. Bitcoin is only a number in a database that my wallet application reads and shows on the screen of my mobile phone. Why should I buy a number? Why would I pay a specific price for it? Why $38,000 and not $0.0001? If someone would offer me a bond with $1,000 face value and maturity in two years for $800, I would buy it. The reason is obvious. But what is the reason for buying a number "1" for $38,000? "You shouldn't buy it" is not an answer. If you sell bitcoin on the market you should be able to explain why this product is worth the price. Except if you bought it blindly, with no rational reason, and now you are selling it blindly. Then of course you are unable to provide a rational answer.

That's completely besides the point. The point is that people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of. While a number is not. Numbers are worthless. Currently people buy these numbers blindly, because they are driven by greed, so miners are able to sell them. But what will happen when things turn around?

Regarding fiat currencies. You are ignoring the fact that fiat currency units are just an evidence in the process where borrowers borrow and return goods, services and labour(valuable things). In bitcoin system these things are not borrowed and returned but given for free(for worthless numbers). After people did that, they have faith someone will give them the equivalence of valuable things as well. Bitcoin is simply an evidence of people who live in this faith.

It is a bad comparison on the grounds that in the example of a grain of sand you are exchanging something that is abundant and widely available for a precious good, whereas, in the case of bitcoin, you are exchanging something scarce and hard to obtain for the same precious house. It is true that only irrational people would exchange a valuable thing for something they could get for free. Apparently, you can't believe and understand that something like bitcoin, "a number," can be scarce and valuable, and you are calling other people greedy, stupid or irrational because you can't understand why they keep exchanging valuable things for something you consider worthless. Either you are defending your ego because you can't admit that other people are smarter than you or you are smarter than millions of people who mistakenly believe that digital scarce decentralized money is not nonsense and that the only justification for the existence of traditional money is that governments have managed to coerce people to use costlessly-printed money in their transactions. In either case, you have no choice but to accept the fact that bitcoin is used and seen as money by other people. No matter how smart or stupid those people that have chosen bitcoin, bitcoin will stay and will function as intended because it doesn't even care what people think about it. You either buy it or ignore and resist it while you can.

Bitcoin is simply a name given to a number in a "digital box" that Satoshi designed. In the same way, you can design a physical box, put a limited number of grains of sand in it, give these grains a fancy name, mark them somehow to be unique and voilà, your grains are scares. No, they are not. The same is true for numbers.

Also, scarcity is referred to things people can live off of. From numbers in a database no one can.

Of course, you can create your own cryptocurrency and give it whatever name, but it won't in any way affect bitcoin or make it less scarce or significant. Yes, bitcoin, like any other software, is merely a set of zeroes and ones that behave in a certain way and perform certain functions, but these numbers differ from any other numbers because they stay inside the bitcoin system which has value only because people consider it valuable. If people stop considering bitcoin a valuable thing, they won't be investing their time, money, and effort to interact with it. It will become worthless, like any other thing should people stop deeming it valuable. What you need to do before trying to convince people that bitcoin is not valuable is you need to learn more about bitcoin, understand how and why it works, how so-called scarcity is achieved, how it is even possible, why people may want to put their money in it, why miners spend a valuable thing that everyone can live off of to obtain numbers that don't make sense and then you should convince yourself that everything you have learned about bitcoin can't work in the real world and is against all economic laws. Only when you have spent thousands of hours learning about every aspect of bitcoin, can you start to criticize it adequately without employing questionable analogies. There is no other way, no one can convince you to buy bitcoin until you convince yourself. This is an absolutely voluntary system.

lets word things in your language. maybe you will see the point then

people (so called employees) spend a ton of muscle energy only to get a serial number. energy is a valuable resource people can live off
people (so called goldsmiths) spend a ton of fuel only to get a bunch of atoms. energy is a valuable resource people can live off
now lets repeat your example
people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of

regarding bitcoin
you are ignoring the fact that bitcoin is just evidence of complex mining where acquirers use valuable things(electricity). in fiat, bank notes are not created at a cost, they are evidence of 0cost creation..
in fiat these things are not mined, but given for free. after people get that, they have to give it back at extra cost to themselves(muscle energy) so banks can profit. banks work on faith that people will pay back more for something that cost nothing

We can make a system where grains of sand stay only inside that system. But they are still grains of sand and thus, abundant in quality. In the same sense, bitcoin is still a number and numbers are infinite in quality. Btw, I am not criticizing bitcoin. It would be stupid to criticize a number. I am criticizing irrational human behavior.


Well, you can use whatever semantic tricks you want, but off of certain arrangements of atoms people can live. Off off others they cannot. A certain systems(banking) are designed to return people arrangements of atoms they can live off of. Others(crypto) are not. You cannot change reality via language.

Like I said, you simply cannot criticize adequately something you fail to grasp due to your lack of knowledge, even if that "something" is someone's behavior that you for whatever reason consider irrational. If you don't understand the difference between the numbers inside the system and outside the system, and if you don't understand how the design of the system works and how it makes numbers scarce, then go and find out. If you think bitcoin is abundant like sand, then go and dump the market with unlimited bitcoins printed out of thin air. The problem is you can't get these special numbers that are inside the system for free, you must pay for them. Unlike sand that exists in abundance outside the box, bitcoin doesn't and can only be obtained through hard work.

Hahaha, you are really funny with this endless excuses for irrational behavior. If I set a rule that you can obtain a grain of sand inside my system only through hard work, then by definition you can't get it for free. But, it is still a grain and grains are abundant in quantity. Giving a house for a grain of sand or for a number just because they are inside someone's system, is a textbook example of irrational behavior. Imagine, I put a gram of gold into a system that I designed and I convince you that instead of $50, this in now worth $50K. All because it is inside my magic system and as such scarce. Hahaha.

Even if that's the case, the grain of sand gains market value if hundreds of millions of people find it utilizable. You can't deny that a group of people actually use Bitcoin, whether they're irrational or not.

So, it just became meaningful, you're wrong and case's closed.

That's a lie. Emphasis mine;


And yet, you keep making the same kind of witless questions.

First, this is solely your opinion, diamonds are scarce, but we don't need them to live, and second, I can live with Bitcoin.

But, it ain't just a number. I can't create bitcoins by drawing numbers in a paper. You're becoming a laughing stock.

---

You can't comprehend that money is beyond debt. You only want to prove us all wrong, because a “number in a database” sounds too moron to be traded with fiat currency. Well, guess what: It's not. People like you, who are conservative and not creative enough, can't see what's Bitcoin. Please allow the others to think otherwise, thanks.

As for irrationality, you're the most irrational and obtuse person in this room, as far as I can tell.

How more excuses are you ready to produce to rationalize irrational behavior? You are completely ignoring the crucial point I am making and just repeat irrelevant generic phrases. Replacing a capital based system with a faith based system is irrational behavior. In a banking system, once you trade things you can live off of, you are protected with the capital (collaterals) of the borrowers to be able to return those things. If you replace that system with bitcoin system you are left only with faith that people will voluntarily return you the said things. You behave irrationally because you believe you will get more than you invested. But this believe is also irrational because this is not the system of stocks where capital is used to create new value. Bitcoin system doesn't create new value but only redistributes what is already there. So you can make profit only like in ponzi schemes. Entering into faith based system only for that reason is irrational.

Since you are trolling, you'll ignore all the evidences in the world, no matter how good it is, aren't you?  ::)

I feel somewhat sorry for all these people who ignored the "don't feed the troll" rule and tried to answer you nicely.
However, if you go with this... tone, you may end up with no people to answer this... little game.

Evidence for what?

PoS coins have no creation cost. so those would actually follow your idea that its just a number(like fiat) where it has no cration cost, but gains value by people finding labour/goods to make swaps with it

but PoW coins actually have a cost that comes with its creation. and due to other features and benefits, they have utility too

fiat does not have the 'borrowers liability/security' you think it does. you are owed nothing when you hold a bank note

bank notes value does not come from its creation. but from someone else working to then give it value after creation in exchange for goods/services.
thus a simple medium of exchange with no underlying backing(Pos coins and fiat)

bitcoin has underlying backing right from its creation, which is then strengthened by the work to add more confirmations. and also new confirms when its being spent.

then.. it becomes used as a medium of exchange ontop of that where people swap labour, goods for it(like fiat)
so bitcoin has more to it than fiat does


i have bitcoin from 2012, and to undo the proof of its creation. it requires ~510,000 blocks to be undone to remove trace of my coin. and then another >510,000blocks to be rebuilt ontop to legalise that change into existence by overtaking the network
it costs over $240k to make ONE block right now.. or taking the cost over the last 10 years
meaning it costs $5,691,784,177,413.87 to do that

i can destroy proof of your bank notes existence with a match, and your bank wont just give you another. you have no security

now if you want to think they are just number.. try it
take a bank note out of your pocket. and put it beside your screen
then find a random bitcoin on your screen...

try and destroy the bitcoin, then light your bank note on fire... see which one survives and which one can be destroyed

You can keep ignoring that you are in a zero-sum and faith based system which you can exist only if someone voluntarily enters it. Whatever misinformation about the banks you repeat, whatever you say about PoW or bitcoin the fact will stay that entering such system is irrational behavior. That's also the reason why you are unable to provide a rational answer to my questions from OP.

YOU are ignoring that bitcoin has a cost in its creation and acquisition

and there is a HUGE cost in trying to destroy if from existence.

need a match to figure out which one has no security?

Bitcoin has zero cost in creation. It's created by a mere program function.

I suggest you test that assertion by creating one.

None, unless you think what I'm doing is irrational.

I'm very sure I don't ignore your point. I've understood what you're trying to say and I'm explaining you that there's another way to see things in life.

This is just your opinion.

I'm protected by the collaterals, but who's gonna protect me from inflation?

Wrong. I don't believe people will ever give me things voluntarily. I'll have to pay them in our agreed currency.

I never said that, you made it up. All I said is that it's a hedge to inflation and I like it as a concept. It fits my character.

Exchanging stuff using Bitcoin does create new value, as it contributes to division of labour. (Which in continuance, creates value)

But, Bitcoin is not such scheme, because:

---

But, cost has nothing to do with the utility. Just because there's a cost in the procedure of extracting something from the ground doesn't make it useful.

Banks supposedly consider both the same, whether it's a bank note or a promise of a bank note. When you own a $100 bill, you can redeem it for a $100 worth liability. So, I'd say that you can actually “buy” other people's debt with cash, again if we consider that banks consider both the same. Therefore, you're indirectly owed if you hold their money.

No need to comment the example you've given... No one's gonna redo the work for the last 510,000 blocks. Ever heard of the $5 wrench attack?

Sorry, but yes. I consider your explanations irrational. For e.g. you answered that the reason I should buy bitcoin is because I am "getting the ability to use a currency." The word "use" obviously means "to sell it". This is irrational for the following reason: everything that is bought on the market is in the same time sold. So your answer is basically a tautology: you should buy a product because in that way you are getting the ability to sell it. No shit, Sherlock. I didn't know that. lol

"Another why to see things" can also be irrational. I've explained why replacing capital based system for faith based system is irrational. In short, If you trade things you can live off of, for the ones you cannot live off of, and after that, the only possible way to get the first things back is if some unknown person voluntarily decides to do so, that's irrational. You can call this "another why to see things", but it is irrational.

Then you say: ". I don't believe people will ever give me things voluntarily. I'll have to pay them in our agreed currency." But the agreement is obviously voluntary. People are not liable to return you the things you can live off of once you bought bitcoin. That's the whole point.

But yet, it's the only product that can be cut into millions of pieces with a click, transferred from one part of the planet to the other in seconds, be easily verified, resistant to censorship and completely durable. So, I assume that if lots of people think same like I do, that it does look like a currency, then I see no reason on not using it likewise. Call it belief.

What's so bad if we want to deal with it?

Good, that's a feature. It's a feature of free market. You still deny that you don't know your future purchasing power whether there are collaterals or not. You've only focused that, on paper, you'll own an amount.

(You used the word “voluntary” vaguely)

Simple. It's a scarce product. There are only 21 million bitcoins and if you can get a full bitcoin then you're gonna be amongst the 1% at some point in your life.

It could go to zero but it is more probable it will go to a million before that

No matter how you cut or transfer bitcoin, your answer is still a tautology. And if the only reason you trade things you can live off of for BTC is because you can sell BTC based on faith, that reason is irrational.

"Future purchasing power" is irrelevant. I care only that I'll own things I can live off of. Whether this is minus a few percent doesn't bother me. Inflation is less of a problem than a faith.
I already addressed this scarcity myth. "To the moon" prophecy I would rather not comment.

the silly thing is..

now even blackhatcoiner has turned into copying antithesis flip flop of ignorance..

when asking about the value(economic) and values(features and utility) of bitcoin
        i give examples of utility and features (values)
    but then the question becomes 'but its just a number made of nothing with no cost...' (value)
        so then i explain the cost of the creation(value)
    but then question flips to but the cost is not explaining the utility.. (values)
repeat infinity loop

ill let the flip flip in and out of their loop of  asking for and ignoring value values, or values value game
they can break their own inifinity loops when they get bored of their game

---

funny part is that both antithesis and blackhatcoiner are thinking that bitcoin has no value.
both thinking its just 2 people agreeing on a medium and setting some randomly chosen number of value to assign it.

ignoring the acquisition value of the holder and his loss of utility values by giving it up as his bases of him setting up his sell price/offer.
EG if its very complicated to acquire it again in the future. im less likely to give it up in a sell or swap for goods. thus i will only sell/swap for goods if conditions are right to account for the utility value i might lose by no longer having it.
EG i wont buy a house because although a house appreciates in value every 10 years, bitcoin appreciates in value in 4 years.
EG i can sell the same house in 10 years. but trying to get the same amount of btc in 10 years would require alot more expense, effort to get back to same state as 10 years prior. so id rather keep the btc until i decide i no longer have use of it
(plus other features and benefits of use, listed in prior pages)
.
the buyer can see how easy/hard it is to acquire(mining, market, offering labour, goods) and decide how much premium value its worth to acquire if its harder to acquire by other means
EG a buyer might pay a premium on 'local bitcoins' because he can acquire it easier without kyc of markets(exchanges)
EG a buyer might pay a premium on the market because its faster and less of a headache than trying to mine it

its not 2 people dipping their hand into a hat and playing a raffle of random numbers to find an agreed price. there is more to the decision of value then just thinking up some nonsense random number

---

as for saying that banks have security to give $10 bank note for $10 bank note. its not an insurance against fire, theft, loss.
burn a bank note and see if a bank will reimburse you,, they wont. they have no insurance or liability to protect you in that way.
all you get a a crisp bank note if you hand them a crumpled but complete bank note. and they can charge you for it.
thats all you get

---

the problem with their theory that bitcoin does not have this same promise.. is that bitcoin does. thats how payment systems work.. input output contract of a transaction is the promise of the swap of one utxo for another utxo

banks and bitcoin do not promise they will exchange a bank note or btc for a fixed bread loaf value.

they just take a unit and give you a unit of the same form. thats not fixed value security with bank fiat because if you held a bank note from 2009 (5 bread loaf value) you wont get 5 bread loaves for it now. (inflation  is now 4 loaves)
banks have no security against inflation, no fixed value promise.

however bitcoin has proven that bitcoin from 2009 are worth more now(deflation)

value is more secure in bitcoin then it is with fiat
deflation is better than inflation

---

a pick pocket does not even need a wrench to steal a bank note.

imagine i had a bank note in my left back pocket. and my bitcoin app on my phone on my right back pocket.
and a pick pocket takes both.. without a wrench

i have totally lost the bank note. but i can retrieve my bitcoin.
because my phone is passcoded. and i have a backup key.

which is more secure.. bitcoin
..

then try to actually destroy all proof of the existence of my coin. you need more then a wrench to do that, yet i can just light a match to destroy all proof of your bank notes existance

which is more secure.. bitcoin

It's not my flip flop of ignorance. It's your flip flop of semantics. But I know how to end this quickly: if bitcoin has value, then answer what can you do with it without other people? If you need other people for bitcoin to have value then the value is not in bitcoin but other people. So, what it is? What has value? Bitcoin or other people? If the latter, who is liable to do something so you can utilize value. If the former, how do you utilize bitcoin for your benefit without other people?

out of the many many features and utilities. you specifically asked about the features and utility without the need of other people.
so..
i can hold it much like you can hold a bank note.

but the better use of holding bitcoin is that i can back it up so that if i lose one copy of the key i can retrieve it elsewhere.
if you lose your bank note.. its gone.. and nobody accepts a copy of a bank note (counterfeit)

if i cant trust keeping a paper key safe. i can secure it in many ways.
bitcoin does not need middle men custodians to secure bitcoin..
bank notes need banks to hold it to protect it against fear of loss by giving it to them in custody

bitcoin does not need insurance against bank failure, the decentralised nature means it doesnt need banks, nor insurance
if bank notes were secure by themself there would be no need for bank custody. and no need for FDIC or bailouts.

bitcoin secures itself so no need for custodians or insurance
banks need insurance but even when banks fail the insurance is not invoked. elitists prefer other methods which cause customer value loss just to prevent other elitist loss(the FDIC didnt pay out because they couldnt. thats why the tax payers bailed out the banks instead)

i do not need someones else signature or authorisation to pay them. they do not have to be awake when i pay them.
with a bank note you have to give it to them, meet them
with a bank account the bank has to phone you to ensure you are the real person making the transfer. and are limited to how much you can transfer without question

i can move bitcoin to another wallet i own without limit or restriction or permission or question
try and move bank money from a bank account into your wallet. ATM limits are $500, bank teller limits are $1000 before being questioned, delayed, limited

i dont even need to use the blockchain to move bitcoin.
i can pass someone a private key. a passphase seed. i can make a QR code or even a cryptic artwork. heck i can put the key into a physical coin or engrave it into metal. i can pass around bitcoin in many ways.

if you wanted to send bank notes internationally, even by postal service. even they have limits and insurances because they cannot guarantee it.
bitcoin doesnt need limits or insurance. it just works

if you wanted to set up a trust requiring majority vote (eg 3 of 5) you dont NEED a lawyer/solicitor or notary or bank manager to set it up.

other features/utility
heck if i know a person well i can think up 12 words they know well too. put bitcoin onto that associated address and just say some encrypted message via a private message app like
"what type of guitar did your dad play" -acoustic
"what did your sister want to do for a job" -actress
"what did you ask me for on your birthday" -apology

heck you can even have fun with it. like offer some out as a competition/prize. testing peoples knowledge where the first person to get all answers right wins
like
"what was first bought with 10,000btc" - pizza
"whats the pseudonym of bitcoins inventor" - satoshi
"what do ignorant people like antithesis think bitcoin is" - number
and so on
you dont even need them to reply to you to win, they can take it by themselves
 

---

now here is the thing.
even though bitcoin does not NEED custodians to protect it from loss (copy keys in many ways)
even though bitcoin does not NEED co-signing authorisation

these features are available for bitcoin as a choice. so if you WANT to have a co-signer. you can. if you want to put it into custody you can. but with bitcoin you dont NEED to

Bravo! Finally! That's what  I wanted to hear.

So, I can just copy/past the entire bitcoin system, give my coins the same name and I have all the features and utility you mentioned without the need of other people.

Why then would I pay even a dime for these features and utilities? Moreover, I can have as many coins as I like. Why would I pay $40K for a single coin if I can have the whole package for free?

if you created your own altcoin.

you would then need to make that altcoin work. need to mine it so that blocks are produced.
because you are just one person. with one cell phone. your altcoin wont make blocks for a long while. it would take months and years for all them missing blocks to trigger difficulty drops sufficiently enough for your cell phone to start mining a block successfully and frequently, so that you can make a payment to yourself or someone else.

by that point if you could get someone to be part of your network. they too could mine. and they would then value the altcoin based on how easy it is to acquire your altcoin by different means.

so if you were trying to offer your altcoin to them for $40k. they would decline because they are at a cellphone mining speed too, meaning 0.01c to mine fresh coin. so why would they want your $40k coin, when they can mine on your altcoin network for much less
because they may not want to go through the effort of mining they might go upto 0.02c or they may think about making their own altcoin and see the time and effort so they may go upto 0.03c, keck they might offer you 0.04c rather than 0.01c to another altcoin making person who doesnt have the same features. because the features(you copied from bitcoin) have more utility then someone elses altcoin missing the features.
but its the combination of features and costs of utility that build up a valuation..
..
now do you see why i mentioned the mining value stuff many posts ago.
now do you see why i mentioned the ease of use factor many posts ago
now do you see why i mentioned the features many posts ago
now do you see why i mentioned the benefits many posts ago
now do you see why i mentioned the utility many posts ago

its a combination of all factors

your altcoin might have the same features of protocol. but it lacks other features, like its acceptance by retailers like its mining cost, like its ease of use, even things like your altcoin is only mined by 1-2 entities meaning the centralisation risk of it is high, making it less appealing

right now there are dozens of ripped off altcoins copying bitcoins same protocol. depending on a combination of many factors that make them atleast viable to be used by some and not used by others, and the cost associated with it differ depending on different mining costs. and also the ease of use with others and retailers make some of those rip offs vary in price. some from as little as a penny. some for a few hundred dollars. but none come close to genuine bitcoins value because bitcoin can do more then what the rip offs can

EG
they/you are not buying the serial number of a bank note.

if you had a bank note and decided to copy it(counterfeit) retailers wont accept it. if then you try to convince someone to accept it, they would have to evaluate the cost of your photocopy vs their own ability to photocopy. and their own risk of retail acceptance. and in the end they might offer you a penny for your counterfeit bank note.

or they would look at a genuine medium of exchange that has actual costs involved and ease of spending. and just use that one
even if the ease of use the genuine medium of exchange comes at a higher cost. because of its utility and features that make it better than the issues, headaches and risks of your silly altcoin/counterfeit bank note

Wait, wait wait!!! Hold your horses. You said "without the need of other people". And now, you are talking about "someone", "them", "they", "offer"... So, you are contradicting yourself. But that's OK. In that way you proved my point nicely. Thanks.

 Without other people voluntarily doing something for you, your bitcoin is worth less than a dust particle. On the other hand, in my fiat system, other people are forced by the banks to do something for me - give me things I can live off of, so they get notes or deposits for their loan repayments.

So replacing the latter system for the former is irrational behavior. That was the whole point of this topic.

Again, what's irrational and what's not is not down to you to decide.

What if I told you that it's irrational to not care about inflation? What if I told you that I do care if it's minus a “few” percent?

Because you can't. Setting up your own altcoin means you're outside Bitcoin, where everybody agrees. You still haven't acknowledged that Bitcoin is worth so much, because of consensus (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Consensus). You can't comprehend that this is what people evaluate and not numbers in a database.

I am not deciding what's irrational and what's not, the logical syllogisms do that.

To not care about small inflation is not irrational because costs of maintaining physical assets are much higher. Also assets like vehicles are worth less with time. What is really irrational is to replace a system where someone is liable to give you things you can live off of and where this liability is secured with physical assets, for a system where you have only faith that unknown people will voluntarily give you such things.

Regarding the last point. It is irrelevant what is consensus of people. That's just something that is going on in their minds. What is relevant are things people can live off of.

There's no point to continue this further as you lack understanding of what's consensus while you're abusing vocabulary at the same time. I quit.

Consensus is still faith, and not capital. It's like in ponzi schemes. When people voluntarily invest into the scheme there's a consensus by definition. But there no capital off of which current investors (holders) can return their funds. They have only faith that new investors will voluntarily enter the scheme and bring in the funds.

YOU were the one that only wanted to know about just a few features that can still happen 'without the need of other people'

and i explained those few features and how they had certain level of value.. obviously if you expand out the other features you want to ignore. you might start seeing the other things that add to the combination of value

like i said there is more to it then that, there is a combination of a multitude of features and utility
because all currencies work if other people are involved. you know, you need someone to spend,swap,pay, transfer with.. ofcourse bitcoin is no different and works better the more that use it.. thats how currencies work.
and a good currency is one that not just is mass adopted. but also one that offers lots of feature that make people happy to use it.. WITHOUT FORCE

bitcoin is more then a currency.
there is bitcoin ("btc") the currency
there is bitcoin ("BITCOIN") the payment protocol
there is bitcoin ("Bitcoin") the brand of the network

but here is the thing BITCOIN does not need other people to co-sign my btc over. i can be the sole signee and only i can move btc assigned to me. so that has value to me.

the valuation of my btc within Bitcoin is also based on my acquisition cost of 2012 ($6/btc) meaning if i was wanting to sell all my btc. (i have enough) i could pull down the market price substantially and still be making a profit.
but i dont want to sell my btc below certain levels i decided by myself. and no one if forcing me into a price/value decision

other people like miners in germany or those that bought at the market ATH of $69k have higher acquisition costs so they wont want to sell at a loss. they are happy to buy at $40k because their other methods of acquiring btc are high right now

EG miners in china 2020 and in kazahkstan 2022 are mining cheaper than the market price, so their acquisition costs are less then the market price so becasue they have costs to pay like electricity, they are happy to sell at $40k.
where as it costs ~$43k+ to mine in america. so some are mining to acquire coin to hoard, hedging against inflation due to Bitcoins deflationary nature. and some are buying because its easier to buy than mine and cheaper right now.

some mine for long term hoarding, even at a premium because they want to protect the network. but the network does not rely on any single person to centrally decide on all things Bitcoin.
Bitcoin can run if there were 1 people mining 5 people mining or 1.5million people mining.
the more that mine the better and more secure the network is. and people are willing to pay for that security compared to a silly crappy altcoin you might rip off where only you are mining with your cell phone

we all have our reasons not to sell too cheap, and those reasons are independant of each other.

fiat on the other hand does force people into accepting bank notes at a value. and pretends to protect people but refuses to invoke those protections when banks fail. banks would rather make people lose value for the bank note they hold,

the market price is not some random number displayed on a market. its made up of lots of independent decisions happening.
it only looks random because randomness is the ignorance of wanting to learn, inability to know all the variables that culminate to get the value.. (your problem)

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if you could mine gold in your back yard for nothing more then $2 of cost. you could make alot of profit and if you could hoard enough gold you could affect the gold market rate.
if everyone could mine that cheap everyone could sell for cheap and that would affect the market rate where people eventually are seeing the market with a $2-$5 value window based on the other features and benefits

gold would not remain at $900-$2k window if everyone could mine it for $2

the reason gold is at over $900, and btc is at over $35k is because a alot of independent reasons of alot of choices. based on actual decisions. of lots of factors including cost. its not randomness(well for you it is, because you refuse to understand the variables involves)

You may quit but the op keep on posting and will stand on his vague arguments.  I tried to convenience him earlier but all my efforts went in vain because he is not willing to understand anything and he is not willing to accept any other point of view other than his own.

Unfortunately topic has become so prolonged without any property conclusion.

So you're still ranting on about bitcoin now that you have proved my point that without other people voluntarily entering into the bitcoin system, your bitcoin and all of its features are completely worthless. So, other people's inputs into the system is what has value, not bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a modern, that is, digital means for generating returns for earlier investors with funds taken from later investors. The scheme is global and it lasts longer than the previous ones. That's bitcoin in a nutshell. A good old ponzi-like scheme masked as a currency.

in 2009. without a market price. without a economic value. people still thought bitcoin was worthy(feature and benefits).
they were willing to use their time and electric to use bitcoin.

people were developing it and transacting between each other.
the economic value increased the more people seen the features and benefits. even before there was an economic value.

by the way you are not forced to buy 1btc at $40k
you can if you wanted acquire 0.001 btc $40

no one is forcing you to hand over $40k in a lump
unlike shares where you can only buy whole shares. or stocks only in certain size allocations.

you can still use bitcoin even without paying $40k lump

with bitcoin you are not forced into a system which treats its users badly by devaluing it.
(fiat does force people to use fiat, where the value does devalue)

a ponzi scheme is just a scam where a central party takes money in, makes promises of small interest payments  and tries to avoid people escaping.
a ponzi scheme pretends to offer you interest but reality is you lose value.. fiat is a legally accepted ponzi.
bitcoin is the opposite. its not a ponzi. it hedges against the fiat game

there is no central money stash. no manager.

bitcoin does not offer interest payments. it does not force people to stay in, it does not restrict value movement out.
you are not forced to only move out of bitcoin via a central party
people use bitcoin because it has many features fiat does not offer.

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your whole premiss is the false assumption where you think something cannot have values(utility) unless it has value(price)
where in your mind. if government did not force that $7.50 was the minimum value for 1 hours labour(min wage laws) then no one would use dollar

yet bitcoin had values(utility) before it had value(price) and also that value(price) increases with many factors that different people find as their reasons to use and value bitcoin, without force or limitation

Take all the people that are currently holding bitcoin and spend the electricity to mine it and assume that from now on no person enters the system by investing funds. What all those holders and miners can do with all the beautiful features of bitcoin, with their payment protocols, network, etc. Well, they can send each other numbers. That's all. And off of numbers non of them can live. Every group of people can create such a system for sending numbers. It's nothing more but a primitive email-like system. So, the so-called "bitcoin value" is nothing but funds that are brought it by new investors. The funds these investors put into the pockets of existing bitcoin holders is what is called "bitcoin value". And this is a nonsense of a highe order. Value in some financial system is the capital or debt inside that system that the investors are becoming the owners of. From this capital or debt the investors can profit without new investor entering the system. In bitcoin system you hold numbers and own nothing. So, like I've already said, bitcoin is nothing but a ponzi-like scheme for funds redistribution. Given holders own neither capital nor debt, bitcoin is neither currency nor asset. It's neither money nor commodity. It's just a faith based scheme for sending numbers and redistributing what is already there.

I've concluded that sometimes in life, you don't have to convince people. You just have to let them say whatever they please. Those who have formed a biased opinion towards a phenomenon are dead ducks. However, it's quite annoying when I observe their willingness to make others stop due to their conservative behavior.

I get that you may trust the banking system, but when you want to prove that such innovation is completely meaningless and make every person who uses it look crazy, that says a lot. Fortunately, no one takes this topic seriously. I tried my best. I'd advice franky to stop talking as there's no point; you're just wasting your time.

If "Why should I buy it?" is a valid question, then, "You shouldn't buy it" is also a valid answer. Whether you like it or don't like it is up to you. Keep in mind, though, that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

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I already said that a few days ago. Why do you keep repeating the same arguments incessantly? This discussion seems to be going round and round.

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There is no point in trivializing something you don't understand. You may easily come to wrong conclusions when you use your ignorance as an argument. Bitcoin bears absolutely no resemblance to an email system and there is no point in comparing them. Read the Bitcoin whitepaper if you are interested in understanding its technical aspect.

funny part is
take all the people that are holding bank notes and spend time working to get banknotes and assume that from now on no person enters fiat by buying bank notes.

well then people are now holding colourful toilet paper (zimbabwe dollar)

..
here is the thing though.
before people had a market place to "invest" in bitcoin. people were using bitcoin.
mining happened for 2 years before there was a proper investment market.
people were sharing coin with each other. and using it.

heck. if you just let a few people want to use it for spending. people will. Laszlo in 2010 got pizza for bitcoin, yep before there was an "investment" exchange way of getting bitcoin, people found value in it and utility.
alpaca socks, bitcoin cupcakes.
in the first month of january there were a few people mining, buy mid 2009 there were a few dozen buy the end of 2009 there were many many dozens of people mining and using it.

so if you think that bitcoin is just "investing" to hold. your again ignoring the utility

"You shouldn't buy it" is not a valid answer for someone who sells it. It's a logical contradiction to say for e g. "you shouldn't buy my iPhone", but in the same time selling that iPhone on the market. I guess that in the past you were selling your bitcoin, so if someone would have ask you the question, saying "you shouldn't buy it" is not a valid response.

Why do I keep repeating the same arguments incessantly? For two reasons:

A)"Repetitio est mater studiorum"
B) Because people like franky1 are keep repeating the same misinformation, especially about banking system.

Finally, saying that bitcoin bears no resemblance to an email system is like saying that vehicles bear no resemblance to airplanes. Of course, they don't, but they do the same thing: carry people or goods from one place to another. Likewise, both bitcoin system and email system carry data from one person to another. Bitcoin system is capable to carry only numbers, so it's basically a primitive email system.

You are wrong, agan. If we take all the people that are holding bank notes and spend time working to get banknotes and assume that from now on, no new investor enters the system,  the borrowers, who are part of the system, would via loan repayments simply return the holders the things they can live off of, and the system would cease to exist. In the bitcoin system, such things can be brought only by new investors. So, without them, all you would have is an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a primitive email system where people send each other numbers.

you have the things wrong here.

EG say you are a holder of a bank note.
every minute of each day some borrower somewhere is rapaying a BANK

but what are you getting? what have you gained in that minute, in that day, month, year.?. NOTHING
there is no:
"the borrowers, who are part of the system, would via loan repayments simply return the holders the things they can live off of,"
for people holding a bank note.

people live off things like bread.. you get no bread from a borrower or a bank
each year the purchasing power of a bank note becomes less, not more

having a bank note from 2008 means you could have went to a retailer and traded your bank note for 5 loaves, but now, trading with a retailer you will only get 4 loaves.

the loan thing, you obsess but dont understand, has not gained you anything.
because its a contract between the loanee and the bank.

the loanee is 'borrowing(taking with promise to give back) the banks created value. not a previous bank note holding person
because there is no contract between a loanee and a person holding a bank note

as for saying bitcoin can only be bought by new investors. you are wrong
i can accumilate coin without others. its called mining. i dont need constant "new investors" to exist to use bitcoin or to trade bitcoin. theres a term you are ignoring called circulation. where current people holding can swap value with each other. and do so in many ways. its not just "buying" or "investing" its not to do with market exchange investing.

you can offer labour, goods, services, ingame artifacts, plane tickets, traintickets, coffee, you name it.

I am getting services from a guy that has loan. He provides me services, I pay him in bank notes and he uses them for his loan repayments. That's the purpose of fiat currency system: investing in debt ownership and getting stuff from the borrowers so they can settle their monetary debt to the banks and non-monerary debt to fiat currency holders. So, there's no need for new investors to enter into the system. The borrowers, the banks and the holders are the only three necessary party for the system operation. In bitcoin, without new investors the operation of the system boils down to an infinite loop of nonsensical activity where miners are spending a ton of electricity to maintain a network where people send each other numbers.

And what did people do before the introduction of such system? Weren't they developing mediums of exchange?

um no
you are not getting any bonus. deal, freebie, extra, or service.. you are PAYING someone. no matter what the currency is no matter if the the person selling you a service took out a loan or not. the service you are buying is the same, whether the service provider had a loan or not. you buying a service has nothing to do with loans


if you think people only work to pay off loans. where all employment and services are to cater to debt. then guess what. i am afraid to tell you that there are many many people that do not even take out loans. the reason they work or offer services has nothing to do with loans.
also those getting loans are not giving someone on demand a free service.

loans do not give bank notes value.

a person taking a loan out, is getting money created from nothing but the loan might buy them 100% of goods. if they spend it that day. but then they have to work 140% over time to repay the bank(including tax(20%) and interest(X%/year for X years))
so his 100% spend on day one costs him 140% later.. thus that 100% on day one is worth less value due to later cost, compared to if he just worked and saved up to get 100% without a loan.

loans cause inflation meaning if you wanted your lawn cut by a debtless gardener and a indebted gardener. the indebted gardener would charge you 140% as oppose to 100%. so a loan doesnt give you something. it actually costs you more. meaning you lose something.
if you offerd both gardeners $10. the one without debt will cut your grass for 1 hour. where as the indebt gardener would cut it for 43 minutes and want another $4 if you want a full hours gardening done for you.

also you as a separate person that is not part of a loan contract gets nothing from the loan when you hold a bank note.
and over tine because of inflation the value of your bank note depreciates too(you can buy 4 loaves of bread today but 3 loaves if you held onto the bank note untill 2030)

for the multitude of times. YOU DONT and YOU ARE NOT  "getting stuff from a borrower"
there is no contract between a person getting a loan and you as a bank note holder
there is no benefit, freebie, something you get from someone else having a loan

So we're just glossing over the part where it's not actually possible for everyone to repay their loans?  Bankruptcy is a necessary piece of the puzzle in fiat, because the system would cease to function and collapse if a certain percent of people didn't go bankrupt.  That's not an issue in our new economy.

And there is no "requirement" for new users to enter Bitcoin.  That's misinformation.  Bitcoin would continue to function perfectly adequately in the hypothetical scenario that no new users invested from this day forward.

If you can't make any honest arguments, perhaps it's because the system you're trying to defend is as corrupt as you are? 

It seems that you are so obsessed with bitcoin that you deny basic reality. Fiat money has purpose of settling debt to the banks given that all fiat is someone's loan. All paper fiat is debt owed to central banks by the commercial banks All digital fiat is debt owed to commercial banks  by individuals and companies. In the same time, all paper fiat is debt owed to holders by the central banks. And all digital fiat is debt owed to holders by commercial banks. If you don't believe me, check the accounting books of the commercial and central banks. So, fiat holders are debt owners. Their ownership is valuable because it has the ability to redeem the debt of the banks, individuals and companies. You don't need new investors to bring it the value to the holders. They already own value. In bitcoin system, without new investors all you have is numbers and an enormous spending of electricity to maintain the system where the only thing people can do is send each other these numbers. So, stop denying reality and spreading misinformation.

Translation: 
"Tools of subjugation and oppression are valuable to those in power.  Everyone should be grateful for the opportunity to march to the beat of the Bankster's drums.  It's downright unconscionable that any of you should want to adopt a system which cannot be used to control the masses in the same way fiat can."   ::)

If that's your idea of "value", you can keep it, thanks. 

Also, have you now abandoned all effort to maintain the pretense that you're interested in purchasing Bitcoin?  I get the sense that you're possibly not a fan of personal freedom and would happily attempt to talk people out of choosing it wherever you might be able to.  Fortunately, you're not very convincing.

What happened, Antithesis? Do we now choose whose mouth we want to shut? You respond only to what's interesting you, in this case franky, who, as always, keeps writing walls of text until he's proved right. Consider re-checking these:

The translation takes the cake.

We are talking about business here, not social oppression and conspiracy theories. In that sense, sure, I will keep my ownership of valuable resource that can be used for redeeming debt of individuals, companies and banks. This resource ensures that as long there's debt, these entities will trade me the things I can live off of. And that's not oppression. That's business. I am oppressing no one. It's not me who's responsible for someone's debt. I only invested in it.

You, on the other hand, are free to live in faith that someone will voluntarily give you things you can live off of for the number that you hold. But, that's nor business. That's utopia.

I tend to ignore off topic stuff.

Actually, the entire banking system, the way it currently works, is a conspiracy to humanity. It's not a business when one entity decides how's money gonna work. That's reign. Prior 1971, the gold standard was followed and every bank was following specific rules such as one note corresponded to a fixed amount of gold etc.

But, at the moment, this is really not the case. The government appears to have exceedingly much power to the economy of the society. The output of employment and inflation is down to their hands. When the state is inextricably linked with money, then the economy follows their behavior.

This is when some free market minds awoke.

That's pretty naive way of looking at things. It's not fiat monetary system that is a problem, but government. Government is the problem. It has monopoly on coercion. A corrupt government can destroy everything. In communism people were coerced out of their ownership on mere government fiat. Governments can do whatever they want because they have power.

But, you cannot solve this problem with monopoly money like bitcoin. Botcoin is just holding numbers and owning nothing. A modern ponzi like redistribution scheme. If you own nothing, there's nothing to be destroyed or taken away from you. If today the whole bitcoin system is shut down, nobody's ownership would be lost. Because by holding bitcoin people have the ownership of nothing. They gave up their ownership when entering the bitcoin scheme.

The only way to solve the problem is by keeping governments small and in check.

That's a pretty big IF. How exactly would someone go about doing that? Can you describe that fictional scenario in more detail?

Anything that you set up can be shut down. For whatever reason. It's not like bitcoin system is a deity.

But, you can't deny that the government must be involved. The system requires a central point of failure to work. It's designed to be corrupted at some point in the future. You're the one who sounds naive; if it's a theory that doesn't work in practice, it's a wrong theory.

Read what you're typing. Bitcoin, monopoly money? Then what's fiat that is exclusively possessed by the central banks? Also, you pretty much can. Bitcoin discriminates money and state. It promotes free trade and censorship-resistance.

Indeed. Bitcoin can't disappear currently, it's a science fiction scenario.

You don't understand how things work. Become disciplined and learn.

People are corrupted. All systems that manage ownership have people and thus, all such systems can be corrupted and pose a threat to someone's ownership. Welcome to the real world.

In bitcoin system there's no ownership. So, there's nothing to be managed by the people and there's nothing that can be under a threat.

Bitcoin is monopoly money simply because, the same as in the game of monopoly, by holding 'money' you own nothing. This is unlike in the world of grown-ups where by holding dollars, a deed, or a certificate of title you own debt, a building or a car.

And how would you go about doing that? As you introduced this premise, you should know how to answer such a simple question.

That's not a premise in an argument but a generic, true statement that needs no proof.

Great, Bitcoin isn't managed by an individual, that's all I'm saying.

There is, the bitcoins.

This is a false conclusion. Just because it isn't managed by individuals doesn't mean it can't be under a threat and oppositely.

I know that, down there, you know you're spitting nonsense.

So? Your record by which you own nothing is not managed by an individual. Point? Bitcoins are indeed ownership, but ownership of nothing. Just like money in the game of monopoly. You know, down there, I am stating facts.

You seem to be dodging the simple question. That's slightly to be expected isn't it?
A premise that cannot be proven as true cannot be a true statement. You commit a classic logical fallacy.

Like I've said, it's not a premise. It's a truism. If you set up something, you can shut it down. There's nothing to argue about.

As I said, it cannot be a truism if it cannot be proven. You failed to do it. Which is actually surprising, since true truisms shouldn't be hard to prove, right?

Again, I do own units of a system we, as individuals, evaluate, because we've accepted it as a currency. It's not like money of monopoly.

If you kill every person on Earth? Yeah, it'll sooner or later stop working.

Yes, but I am not going to do so.

You own nothing. You hold a number. That's why you need someone to enter the system, you need a new investor to transfer you the ownership of something. Without that all you can do is play an internet game with your community of holders where you send each other numbers. It's a digital game of a primitive, boring monopoly.

Yeah... I didn't think you would. So much for an argumentative discussion with you. If I remember correctly, we already did this dance a few years ago?


Why stop there? We could destroy an entire planet, or even an entire solar system... That should stop it, right?

If you want to discuss that water is wet and the sky is blue you should find someone else.

It'd destroy the implementation, yeah, but not the idea. Ideas are bulletproof.

Now, @Antithesis, I answered your questions, even though you weren't a potential Bitcoin buyer in the first place. You denied all of my answers 'cause you think they're irrational. Unfortunately, your mind was set before you submit this. So I guess, we'll have to agree we disagree.

While I can see the blue sky every morning, and feel the water wet every time I touch it, I've never experienced anybody stopping Bitcoin from the moment it was created. Yet, you claim that it is a truism, and that it needs no proof. How is that?

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Yeah, but we can't live off ideas, can we? ^{(assuming we survive the destruction of the solar system)} :D

I asked for rational reasons. Not excuses for entering the system. You're basically saying that I should trade my ownership of something for the ownership of nothing because you've accepted the record of the latter as a currency. Which is as nonsensical as saying: "I've traded my car for monopoly money because I've accepted it as a money." Or, I've traded my house for a record in a ponzi scheme because I've accepted this record as a bond. Well, in your imagination you can decide to accept whatever you want. But that's not doing business. That's trying to justify irrational behavior.
So, you've never experienced that financial schemes, where people hold the record of membership but own nothing, collapse? Interesting.

No, I haven't. Not like Bitcoin.
Have you? Could you name at least one? Since, as far as I know, there was nothing like Bitcoin before Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is just a means of luring people to trade their ownership of something for the ownership of nothing. This is simply the same old scheme dressed up in a new uniform. By entering the scheme the investors gave up their ownership of electricity, cars, houses, phones, debt, equity...whatever. Only to end up with a record in a ledger. That's nothing new. People have always been recorded in some way when joining such schemes. It's just that currently the ledger is digital and decentralized. Given that no one can live off of records in a ledger (decentralized or not), members desperately need new investors to exist the scheme. That's why in bitcoin you needed all that mantras about revolution, new internet, societal salvation, freedom... storytelling about the Moon... You have to lure people into the scheme somehow. Eventually people figure out what is going on and everything collapses.

This is true for every property. There's no stock holder I know who doesn't want new investors to enter the business. Same goes for every other tradable item. The more demand it has, the better it is for their pockets. This is true even for pension. If the youth stops working, the elders will stop earning and the system will collapse. The elders need newcomers.

I haven't seen you say that those are ponzis. None of those, including Bitcoin, is a ponzi scheme and I've already told you why (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5383892.msg59183718#msg59183718). Yes, there's faith that people will continue using Bitcoin, I don't disagree, but it has nothing to do with the ponzi narrative. It's how free markets work.

There's also faith that your system will continue working undisturbed, that there isn't going to be bankruptcy, that it won't corrupt, yet every fiat currency has lost most of its purchasing power overtime.

Or:

The level of your reality denial is stunning. Stock holder own capital. Capital is not nothing. Stop flogging a dead horse.

You first (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2239552.msg22598414#msg22598414).

i gotta laugh

there have been people that went to retail closing down sales and literally bought 100k of their branded plastic carrier bags, treating them as a collectable(after the brand was closed) by selling a few of them for $10 each, thus valuing their 'stock' at $1m even though the actual cost was just $1k

as long as you can pretend you are able to sell all products in a year at a given price you pretend exists. you can pretend anything as part of the inventory section of capital valuation.

..
take elon musk. supposedly he is worth over $1trillion.. but do you think he could ever be able to scrape together $1trillion in only 365 days if he was requested to.. no way will he be able to.

alot of people think bitcoins marketcap means something.. it doesnt
its just a multiplication of the current price of a coin multiplied by how many coins there are.  capital is not based on anything real. so dont think that 'capital' is meaningful. its not.. its just math.
same with any company, stock, share

Yes, people behave stupid. That's why we have ponzi-like schemes and market bubbles. But that's off topic. Here we talk about the fact that by holding bitcoin you own nothing. Regardless if price of a particular stock is hundred times above it's real value that fact won't change. And of course, marketcap of bitcoin is the stupidest concept in this whole fantasy kingdom. There's zero capital owned by bitcoin holders, so zero shares in capital multiplied by markt price gives zero.

Let's say what you just said was true for a moment. What's your solution? You expect everybody to sell their bitcoins? As you see it is not collapsing but getting only bigger.

Here is a good reason which'll make you buy: Just participate so you can also make money. You don't even have to buy a "whole" bitcoin to participate. You can use 1% of your wealth. Dump it when it becomes 2%. You will be risking only 1% of your total wealth.

No matter how many times you scream that "crypto has no value", "it is worthless" bla bla bla, the markets don't give af. The price tag for a coin is still $42k. You can either join, or you can cry all you want. Nobody really cares. If you are so sure about that crypto has no value, why don't you short it anyway?

Have fun staying poor.

Your entire statement here is based only on your opinion and has no foundation in facts. You cannot call that a truism. I asked you to explain the simple premise upon which you base your conclusion, but you can't even do that, instead you are deflecting and avoiding the simple question. Why is that?

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No. It's too late for him! He's been ranting the same shit (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2239552.msg22598414#msg22598414) since 2017. A smart man would have moved on by now, but apparently his head cannot fathom the concept of letting go of stuff and that he might be wrong.  ;D

Because they can't give you a valid answer. They're so sure it can be shut down, that they don't care how's going to happen. They're saying that Bitcoin is meaningless, I answered on why that's false, they denied it. They're saying that everyone can create bitcoins for free, I explained why this is also wrong, including phenomena like consensus, they also denied it. They're saying that Bitcoin is ponzi, I cleared up twice why that's a false assertion, but they disagree.

All these have been repeatedly told to them by everyone. They even disagree that two individuals can deal with their medium of exchange, outside this debt-based utopia. There's nothing left, admit you're biased towards it and that no one can change your mind...

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And yeah, it turns out they've being saying the same shit since 2017, under another pseudonym. No idea what they're trying to achieve.

My goal is not to change people's behavior. Once they invested in something, people are driven by fear or greed and no amount of rational arguments or facts can help them. My goal is simply to present the truth. How will people handle the truth it's up to them.
It's not my opinion that once you enter bitcoin system you own nothing. And it's not my opinion that all systems where you own nothing by being member, collapse eventually. The facts that the record of membership is currently digital, decentralized, traded on the market mean nothing. People eventually stop trading their ownership of something for a mere membership status.

Wrong. You can't own Bitcoin and "nothing" at the same time. That's an oxymoron. Whether it's something in digital or some other form is irrelevant. Whether you see any value in it or not is irrelevant as well. You obviously own "something" so your argument is invalid.


Based on what facts? As I have said before, there was nothing like Bitcoin before it, and that is an undeniable fact, so you cannot arbitrarily compare it to anything that existed before.


That's your opinion, and I accept it even if I don't agree with it. So when do you think this will happen? In five years? In fifty years? In our lifetimes? In ten generations? When the human race becomes extinct? When the sun becomes a supernova??

Well, you can use semantic tricks but that means nothing. Holding a record and owning something are two entirely different things. When you buy a stock you hold a record of name and quantity, but you own capital or equity. When you buy bitcoin you hold a record of name and number but own nothing. If I would write down my name and "1,000,000 ounces of gold" next to it, I would hold a record of name and number, but I would own nothing. You can write down whatever record you want. Either you or Satoshi. You can put that record on digital or paper media. But you would still own nothing. By buying bitcoin you gave up your ownership of something and become member of bitcoin community. Membership in this community is identified via numbers. Even if you buy all the membership identifications, you would still own nothing. You would simply be the holder of a number "18,000,000". And you're not even able to eat this. That is how this membership is worthless. Having all the bitcoins in the world, but not even being able to eat.

i eat food thanks to bitcoin.
i pay bills thanks to bitcoin.
i dont need to touch fiat to achieve this.

this case has been true for loads of people even as far back as 2010 when laszlo got pizza thanks to paying bitcoin in the frist example of bitcoin being used to buy real goods/services. laszlo did not need to touch fiat. he just needed to pay a bitcoin address some bitcoin, wait to open his front door and see a pizza delivery guy turn up
since then there are hundreds of thousands of merchants selling goods and services, millions of people using it to buy goods and services
millions of people using it for other uses too

the price of bitcoin in 2010 was: 10,000btc for ~$41 (1btc=~$0.0041c)
now its price is 1btc=~$41,000

the reason for the 10,000,000x cost of acquisition value difference is simple.
its become 10,000,000x more expensive to mine bitcoin

imagine it this way
114 cpu's were mining in 2010
114 cpu at a 90w electric consumption =10.26kw/h= 246.24kwh a day
at 12 cent/kw = $29.55 (combined mining cost for everyone to share 7200coin daily mined coins)
which is $0.0041c per btc acquisition value at american residential electric rate

imagine it this way
1.6m asics at $12k hardware cost each.  $19,200,000,000
which spread hardware over 2 years = hard ware cost $29,223.74/btc for hardware
then we calculate the electric
1.6m asics at 3.25kwh =5,200,000kw/h
at us residential rate of 12cent(as used above) = $624,000 an hour = $16,640/btc
hardware+electric=$45,863.74 cost to mine at home in america

meaning hobby bitcoin miners prefer to buy rather than mine right now

at K'stan industrial rate of 4cent = $208,000 an hour = $5,546.67/btc
hardware+electric=$34,770.41 cost to mine at a kazahkstan asic farm

meaning kazahkstan mining farms prefer to mine rather than buy

you can actually look up the electric rate of different countries and calculate the costs. and work out which countries prefer to buy or mine.

so calculating the economic value is actually easy.
as for the utility value(features) which people want to acquire it. there are many things you can do with bitcoin and many people have many reasons. its not just to hoard to hedge against inflation.

people can actually buy things with it. i dont mean just swap for fiat. i mean actually buy (goods and services) without needing to touch fiat in the process. people choose to use bitcoin as oppose to other mediums. because bitcoin has features that they cant get in other mediums

features such as not needing to apply for an account needing to submit their name, home address, social security numbers. they just create a public key. easy. free, no registration required.
they can send funds internationally far cheaper then international fiat wire transfer
the recipient doesnt need documented ID to receive funds
it can be used to set up 'trust funds' without lawyers

using a bank note, you cant make a trust without lawyers and bank managers authorisation. sure you can stick it under a mattress and tell your wife and kids to only use the bank note after your death. but thats emotional trust. not a ruled 'trust'.

in bitcoin you just set up a multisig. no registration required no documented ID, no lawyers

it can be used to do many other things(some listed many posts ago)

You eat food thanks to people that produced it and then gave it up for membership in bitcoin community. You pay bills thanks to people that are willing to trade their ownership for membership. Storing and transferring membership identifications in bitcoin community is possible because miners give up their ownership of electricity in order get the same identifications. Generally, a small piece of plastic or stiff paper is used to identify you are a member of a group, organization or community. Here, a digital number is used for that purpose. As the community members, you organize events, join on social media to talk about economics, conspiracy theories about the banks, and an utopian society. You think of yourselves as a superior to non-members. You live in an illusion that you own a revolutionary money or assets with supernatural features. You are dreaming of becoming rich. Your have feelings of being special, purposeful, taken care of, free. The latter reminds me of Visualize - Self-Realization Center Church, a philosophic and spiritual cult, led by Bret Stiles. (from the series The mentalist)

What you all have in common is that you were fooled into believing that you participated in an economic transaction. But you didn't. An economic transaction is the exchange of ownerships. You on the other hand exchanged ownership for membership. Basically you gave up something for nothing given the membership status grants you no benefits, unlike for e g. a club membership. The more things you gave up the higher is the rating in the community that you earned, that is, you got bigger number. In a nutshell, bitcoin is the good old method to transfer wealth from the masses to the few. It's just that it is dressed up in a new uniform.

So, stop with this endless rants of yours. You cannot fool anyone here.

Where's Antithesis when the Russians needed him the most?

I'm sure you've read and seen real successful people in Bitcoin, anyone who wants to know Bitcoin or who is directly involved with it, surely they know the true meaning of Bitcoin, there is no element of coercion for every human being to buy Bitcoin, you are sure to continue as for the opposite, don't do it.

and if he is really a potential buyer then he will never seek for too much answer or even that rational answer because for you to be called investing potentially meaning you have already idea of what is the market and what are the possibilities and yes you only need to trust that market and buy what you can afford to lose.
that is the ethics of investing in all fields and not only in Bitcoin and in altcoins but in all aspects .