Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer?

[franky1]

Of course there are no promises behind fiat money, promises are worthless. Behind fiat there are contracts, collaterals and legal enforceability. That's why I know that the borrowers will always be forced to trade me the things that I can live off of for my fiat. They will always need fiat for their loan repayments. Fiat=loans(debt).

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin. When people are driven by greed, because the prices go up, this faith based deal looks great. But at some point greed will turn into fear, and then you will learn the hard way what it means to base your business on faith. And none of the poems about bitcoin, blockchain, revolution and freedom will save you. No one can live off of database entries.

nope. fiat contracts are not about the debt. no one owes you anything. you holding a bank note is not some security to some laon somewhere that someone owes you.
take a bank note to a bank. they wont give you bread loaf value for the bank note. all they do is give you a crisp new copy of the same note., to replace the crumpled, dirty copy.

if you hand in a bank note as a desposit. your bank note then forms a contract where the bank can use your collateral to fractional reserve future debt where the bank profits on the returns. and if your lucky you might get 0.01% for letting them use your bank note you no longer hold(while its in their custody).

check out the zimbabwe dollar. no one had security, the government were not liable to honour value.
once tax and min wage laws were no longer measured in Z$ people stopped using it

the only thing that makes fiat useful (where by it has no other benefits) is because of tax/minimum wage laws that force it into utility.
if people had the choice they would not want to use fiat because the moment they receive it, they have lost value.
either via tax or inflation.

people would prefer to use something deflationary, where just holding it independently increases the value over time.
if it was not for tax/min wage laws, no one would use fiat (its why zimbabwe dollar is now dead, its why people dont use euro's in america)

american dollar is only viable in america because of tax/min wage laws forcing utility. it has nothing to do with any dreamed up liable value or security promise. because there is no liability/security promise.

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get.. dont say promises security liability. actually explain what you would get in return. the us government removed the gold standard 50 years ago.. you are not promised gold anymore
a UK bank notes says now it "promises to pay the bearer the sum of 5 pounds" .. not 5lb of silver... just £5:£5 meaning they only now promise to swap a crumpled piece of paper for a crisp piece of paper..

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get?
the only answers would be:
a crisp new bank note swap for crumpled note. meaning no difference.
a bag of heavy copper coins that might (scrap rate) get you more value, but no one likes to handle them so the effort outweight the value, so they would probably see its coins and swap at face value 1:1 not scrap value.

imagine if bitcoin also made a promise of: it promises you pay the bearer of 1btc, the sum of 1btc or 100,000,000
would you think this was a meaningful promise.. or just a way to clean up its taint(dirtiness)

..
anyway a bank note is not worth the value its printed on.
yet bitcoin has an underlying value of ~$35k(eastern europe/west asia) $85k(expensive countries)

the price is currently near good value world wide, exceptionally good value for those in expensive countries. they can buy it 2-3x cheaper then they can mine it
yes when bitcoin was ~$70k it was 2-3x value and seen as a premium for most and seen as only just good value for expensive countries. but its much better than the dollars 26x devaluation

[Antithesis]

Of course there are no promises behind fiat money, promises are worthless. Behind fiat there are contracts, collaterals and legal enforceability. That's why I know that the borrowers will always be forced to trade me the things that I can live off of for my fiat. They will always need fiat for their loan repayments. Fiat=loans(debt).

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin. When people are driven by greed, because the prices go up, this faith based deal looks great. But at some point greed will turn into fear, and then you will learn the hard way what it means to base your business on faith. And none of the poems about bitcoin, blockchain, revolution and freedom will save you. No one can live off of database entries.

nope. fiat contracts are not about the debt. no one owes you anything. you holding a bank note is not some security to some laon somewhere that someone owes you.
take a bank note to a bank. they wont give you bread loaf value for the bank note. all they do is give you a crisp new copy of the same note., to replace the crumpled, dirty copy.

if you hand in a bank note as a desposit. your bank note then forms a contract where the bank can use your collateral to fractional reserve future debt where the bank profits on the returns. and if your lucky you might get 0.01% for letting them use your bank note you no longer hold(while its in their custody).

check out the zimbabwe dollar. no one had security, the government were not liable to honour value.
once tax and min wage laws were no longer measured in Z$ people stopped using it

the only thing that makes fiat useful (where by it has no other benefits) is because of tax/minimum wage laws that force it into utility.
if people had the choice they would not want to use fiat because the moment they receive it, they have lost value.
either via tax or inflation.

people would prefer to use something deflationary, where just holding it independently increases the value over time.
if it was not for tax/min wage laws, no one would use fiat (its why zimbabwe dollar is now dead, its why people dont use euro's in america)

american dollar is only viable in america because of tax/min wage laws forcing utility. it has nothing to do with any dreamed up liable value or security promise. because there is no liability/security promise.

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get.. dont say promises security liability. actually explain what you would get in return. the us government removed the gold standard 50 years ago.. you are not promised gold anymore
a UK bank notes says now it "promises to pay the bearer the sum of 5 pounds" .. not 5lb of silver... just £5:£5 meaning they only now promise to swap a crumpled piece of paper for a crisp piece of paper..

if something happened to the dollar. what do you think you would get?
the only answers would be:
a crisp new bank note swap for crumpled note. meaning no difference.
a bag of heavy copper coins that might (scrap rate) get you more value, but no one likes to handle them so the effort outweight the value, so they would probably see its coins and swap at face value 1:1 not scrap value.

a bank note is not worth the value its printed on.
yet bitcoin has an underlying value of ~$35k(eastern europe/west asia) $85k(expensive countries)

the price is currently near good value.
yes when bitcoin was ~$70k it was 2-3x value and seen as a premium. but its much better than the dollars 2-26x devalue

I have one simple question for you: if a borrower has a loan contact in dollars and is forced via collateral to liquidate it, and I hold these dollars, how will the borrower get the dollars?

Btw, dollars are recorded in the accounting books of the banks as their liability. If the borrower fails to trade their goods, services or labour with me, the bank will seize their property and sell it to me. Because the bank has liability to me. It has to liquidate the open loan with my dollars because the loan is issued in dollars.

Finally, there's no difference between "dollar note" and "dollar deposit". It's is just that the first is the bank's liability written on paper media, while the second is the bank's liability written on digital media. Today, in the age of the internet, people prefer the second.

Advice: stop reading conspiracy theories about the banks.

[BlackHatCoiner]

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin.

Maybe some people don't want to be part of a fraudulent, built-to-corrupt system where their money is inflated as there's demand for new loans. Maybe some people just want to use something that leaves room for questioning; that its usage is not forced to satisfy ones' interests; that provides free speech and freedom of choice.

There's a difference between trusting a system and having faith to a system: No one forces you the latter. You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

[Antithesis]

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin.

Maybe some people don't want to be part of a fraudulent, built-to-corrupt system where their money is inflated as there's demand for new loans. Maybe some people just want to use something that leaves room for questioning; that its usage is not forced to satisfy ones' interests; that provides free speech and freedom of choice.

There's a difference between trusting a system and having faith to a system: No one forces you the latter. You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

So, you would rather trade your car, house and bike to anonymous people for a number. And then have faith that in five years other anonymous people will voluntarily give you the equivalence of your things? You would rather do that, than to have a guarantee in the capital of the banks, the loan contacts/collaterals of the borrowers and legal enforceability that the equivalence of your things will be returned? All that because some people in the banking system are corrupted? And because borrowers are "forced" to return you the equivalence of your things?

You know that no one can live off of numbers written on bank notes, bank accounts or blockchain. That's why the banking system ensures those who invested in bank notes or bank deposit, get back the goods, services and labour from the borrowers who at the loans issuing received those things. That's the purpose of collaterals and loan repayment. With loan repayments, the borrowers pay the debt in numbers to the banks and the debt in goods, services and labour to holders of bank notes or bank deposits. So, the banking system protects you, it ensures that you get back the things you can live off of. In the bitcoin system, all you have is faith that you will get your things back. Without other people voluntarily giving you something you are left only with a number. And now the crucial question: once you have voluntarily traded me your house for a mere number, why would I give you the house back? Or other things in the equivalent value?

[jamkesmas]

however bitcoin is an investment asset that has a future. It's very difficult to convince people to buy bitcoin if they don't really understand btc, because only as people who know the world of technology will understand how in the future technology will rule the world. I think gold is more valuable for people who don't understand the world of future technology.

[BlackHatCoiner]

So, you would rather trade your car, house and bike to anonymous people for a number.

If it satisfies all those people, then yeah, they'll definitely want it in the future. You said it correctly, there's belief. Belief that people will still evaluate it. It's a free market, so there's uncertainty.

You would rather do that, than to have a guarantee in the capital of the banks, the loan contacts/collaterals of the borrowers and legal enforceability that the equivalence of your things will be returned?

You don't mention the downsides, though. The banking system isn't a green meadow. I'll be using a currency that is constantly devaluated by the banks. As said by franky, your money will sooner or later lose value due to inflation, whether you're guaranteed in the capitals or not. The less the required reserve, the more my money can lose value through loans in the long term.

Well, I don't like that. I want a hedge to inflation.

In the bitcoin system, all you have is faith that you will get your things back.

I think an adage is needed;

Those that think banks and governments are making them poor haven't seen the whole picture. Poverty is the act of trusting their system

Despite our disagreements, I proved you wrong. It's very meaningful for some people. You don't agree, because you want us to do it with your way.

[Iron Fist]

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin.

Maybe some people don't want to be part of a fraudulent, built-to-corrupt system where their money is inflated as there's demand for new loans. Maybe some people just want to use something that leaves room for questioning; that its usage is not forced to satisfy ones' interests; that provides free speech and freedom of choice.

There's a difference between trusting a system and having faith to a system: No one forces you the latter. You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

So, you would rather trade your car, house and bike to anonymous people for a number. And then have faith that in five years other anonymous people will voluntarily give you the equivalence of your things? You would rather do that, than to have a guarantee in the capital of the banks, the loan contacts/collaterals of the borrowers and legal enforceability that the equivalence of your things will be returned? All that because some people in the banking system are corrupted? And because borrowers are "forced" to return you the equivalence of your things?

Although this is a highly simplified description, you are basically right. This is exactly what all Bitcoin investors have been doing for years. Just as with the Wal-Marts and Macy's of the 1980s and 1990s, people are realizing they can get huge returns by investing in penny stocks (yes, even the internet one) and hoping to strike it rich. Unfortunately, while the Wal-Marts of the 1980s and 1990s had sensible rules around securities and protecting investors, those rules are totally absent in the cryptocurrency industry. It is completely unregulated, and the only way to prove that you have been in compliance is to use the coin's blockchain. So even though many penny stocks were fraudulent or otherwise had other problems, investors could use the SEC to settle disputes and do their due diligence. Cryptocurrencies have no such tools and no such oversight.

But that doesn't mean that every cryptocurrency is a scam or that all are a scam. Like penny stocks, not every blockchain project is a bubble that is destined to pop. There are legitimate ICOs out there and legitimate blockchain projects. The technology that runs Bitcoin and Ethereum is enormously promising. The financial benefits to using a blockchain technology to secure transactions are, in my opinion, clear. For example, Bitcoin's great strength is that it is widely used and accepted worldwide as a means of payment, and is highly protected by a large number of miners, which makes it much harder to hack or double spend. I think people will continue to invest in legitimate technology projects and blockchain projects that have real utility. Just as people continue to invest in the stock market and expect good returns, I think investors will continue to buy into cryptocurrencies.

[Antithesis]

So, you would rather trade your car, house and bike to anonymous people for a number.

If it satisfies all those people, then yeah, they'll definitely want it in the future. You said it correctly, there's belief. Belief that people will still evaluate it. It's a free market, so there's uncertainty.

You would rather do that, than to have a guarantee in the capital of the banks, the loan contacts/collaterals of the borrowers and legal enforceability that the equivalence of your things will be returned?

You don't mention the downsides, though. The banking system isn't a green meadow. I'll be using a currency that is constantly devaluated by the banks. As said by franky, your money will sooner or later lose value due to inflation, whether you're guaranteed in the capitals or not. The less the required reserve, the more my money can lose value through loans in the long term.

Well, I don't like that. I want a hedge to inflation.

In the bitcoin system, all you have is faith that you will get your things back.

I think an adage is needed;

Those that think banks and governments are making them poor haven't seen the whole picture. Poverty is the act of trusting their system

Despite our disagreements, I proved you wrong. It's very meaningful for some people. You don't agree, because you want us to do it with your way.

I would rather have the guarantee that in 10 years I will have 90 percent of the equivalence of my house back, than faith in anonymous people. For me, 10 percent inflation in 10 years is not a problem. Although I never keep my money for so long. How do you know that in 10 years people will give you even 1 percent the value of your house that you traded for bitcoin today?

[Antithesis]

In bitcoin, you don't even have promises. All you have is faith that some anonymous people will trade things that you can live off of for your bitcoin.

Maybe some people don't want to be part of a fraudulent, built-to-corrupt system where their money is inflated as there's demand for new loans. Maybe some people just want to use something that leaves room for questioning; that its usage is not forced to satisfy ones' interests; that provides free speech and freedom of choice.

There's a difference between trusting a system and having faith to a system: No one forces you the latter. You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

So, you would rather trade your car, house and bike to anonymous people for a number. And then have faith that in five years other anonymous people will voluntarily give you the equivalence of your things? You would rather do that, than to have a guarantee in the capital of the banks, the loan contacts/collaterals of the borrowers and legal enforceability that the equivalence of your things will be returned? All that because some people in the banking system are corrupted? And because borrowers are "forced" to return you the equivalence of your things?

Although this is a highly simplified description, you are basically right. This is exactly what all Bitcoin investors have been doing for years. Just as with the Wal-Marts and Macy's of the 1980s and 1990s, people are realizing they can get huge returns by investing in penny stocks (yes, even the internet one) and hoping to strike it rich. Unfortunately, while the Wal-Marts of the 1980s and 1990s had sensible rules around securities and protecting investors, those rules are totally absent in the cryptocurrency industry. It is completely unregulated, and the only way to prove that you have been in compliance is to use the coin's blockchain. So even though many penny stocks were fraudulent or otherwise had other problems, investors could use the SEC to settle disputes and do their due diligence. Cryptocurrencies have no such tools and no such oversight.

But that doesn't mean that every cryptocurrency is a scam or that all are a scam. Like penny stocks, not every blockchain project is a bubble that is destined to pop. There are legitimate ICOs out there and legitimate blockchain projects. The technology that runs Bitcoin and Ethereum is enormously promising. The financial benefits to using a blockchain technology to secure transactions are, in my opinion, clear. For example, Bitcoin's great strength is that it is widely used and accepted worldwide as a means of payment, and is highly protected by a large number of miners, which makes it much harder to hack or double spend. I think people will continue to invest in legitimate technology projects and blockchain projects that have real utility. Just as people continue to invest in the stock market and expect good returns, I think investors will continue to buy into cryptocurrencies.

You cannot compare crypto and stocks. In stocks you have the ownership of capital. And you can live off of capital. In crypto all you have is ownership of a number. And off of number you cannot live.

[Rikafip]

@the people trying to have a normal conversation with @Anthises, you might wanna check this thread to see who are you dealing with. He is a known troll from various forms that comes every once in a while and spread his bullshit, hoping that some people will swallow his bait and try to have a conversation with him while he has no intentions whatsoever to listen other side. His mind was set long time ago, he just comes here to troll.

[Iron Fist]

You cannot compare crypto and stocks. In stocks you have the ownership of capital. And you can live off of capital. In crypto all you have is ownership of a number. And off of number you cannot live.

Maybe not, but that's the closest thing we have since there's never been anything like it before. By the same measure, we can't compare it to numbers in an excel spreadsheet either, right? Because, obviously, it has some value (at least for now) whereas the numbers in excel are pretty much worthless.

I would rather have the guarantee that in 10 years I will have 90 percent of the equivalence of my house back, than faith in anonymous people. For me, 10 percent inflation in the years is not a problem. Although I never keep my money for so long.

Yes, but that's poor people thinking. Each investment comes with certain risks; the question is how much risk you are willing to take. In the case of cryptocurrencies, history has shown that the risk has certainly paid off, but it is definitely not for the fainthearted.  

Btw, what do you mean, "I never keep my money for so long"? What do you do with it, if it's not a secret?

How do you know that in 10 years people will give you even 1 percent the value of your house that you traded for bitcoin today?

The truth is, we can't. No one can. That's the fun part.  

[BlackHatCoiner]

I would rather have the guarantee that in 10 years I will have 90 percent of the equivalence of my house back, than faith in anonymous people.

But, you don't. That's the funny part. No one tells you that you'll have that 90% in 10 years in the same way no one tells me that people won't use Bitcoin in 10 years. There's uncertainty, but I bet for the latter.

There are legitimate ICOs out there and legitimate blockchain projects.

I don't think there's one. Initial coin offering isn't fair distribution, so in my opinion, it already starts illegitimately.

[Antithesis]

You cannot compare crypto and stocks. In stocks you have the ownership of capital. And you can live off of capital. In crypto all you have is ownership of a number. And off of number you cannot live.

Maybe not, but that's the closest thing we have since there's never been anything like it before. By the same measure, we can't compare it to numbers in an excel spreadsheet either, right? Because, obviously, it has some value (at least for now) whereas the numbers in excel are pretty much worthless.

I would rather have the guarantee that in 10 years I will have 90 percent of the equivalence of my house back, than faith in anonymous people. For me, 10 percent inflation in the years is not a problem. Although I never keep my money for so long.

Yes, but that's poor people thinking. Each investment comes with certain risks; the question is how much risk you are willing to take. In the case of cryptocurrencies, history has shown that the risk has certainly paid off, but it is definitely not for the fainthearted.  

Btw, what do you mean, "I never keep my money for so long"? What do you do with it, if it's not a secret?

How do you know that in 10 years people will give you even 1 percent the value of your house that you traded for bitcoin today?

The truth is, we can't. No one can. That's the fun part.  

There's no value in numbers. Just because you traded your house for a number doesn't make number valuable. Value is in the things that you can live off of.

What do I do with my banking numbers? I invest them either in the ownership of capital(stocks) or in contracts for difference(CFD), betting on the prices of various market instruments, even bitcoin. Be aware that bitcoin CFD is not a number, but a contract with a broker to pay me the difference in the settlement price between the open and closing trades. I would never buy an actual bitcoin because this is like giving your things for free to someone.

I would rather have the guarantee that in 10 years I will have 90 percent of the equivalence of my house back, than faith in anonymous people.

But, you don't. That's the funny part. No one tells you that you'll have that 90% in 10 years in the same way no one tells me that people won't use Bitcoin in 10 years. There's uncertainty, but I bet for the latter.

There are legitimate ICOs out there and legitimate blockchain projects.

I don't think there's one. Initial coin offering isn't fair distribution, so in my opinion, it already starts illegitimately.

Loan contracts, the capital of the banking system and collaterals of the borrowers tell me that I'll have that 90% in 10 years.

[virtualdn]

@the people trying to have a normal conversation with @Anthises, you might wanna check this thread to see who are you dealing with. He is a known troll from various forms that comes every once in a while and spread his bullshit, hoping that some people will swallow his bait and try to have a conversation with him while he has no intentions whatsoever to listen other side. His mind was set long time ago, he just comes here to troll.

The world is full of such people who are only good at throwing negativity around them. These should be ignored because their contribution to society is zero. Just let their poor ego consume themselves.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Loan contracts, the capital of the banking system and collaterals of the borrowers tell me that I'll have that 90% in 10 years.

Nope. It may tell you the amount of dollars you'll have, but not their future purchasing power.

If only we knew such thing...

What do I do with my banking numbers? I invest them either in the ownership of capital(stocks) or in contracts for difference(CFD), betting on the prices of various market instruments, even bitcoin. Be aware that bitcoin CFD is not a number, but a contract with a broker to pay me the difference in the settlement price between the open and closing trades. I would never buy an actual bitcoin because this is like giving your things for free to someone.

At this point, I don't think there's a point to discuss with you. I spoke with some valid facts, you considered them invalid. You've stuck on the “just a number”. By the same reasoning, a Tesla is “just a car”, a pizza is “just food” and you “just a human being”. Well, sorry, but some people understand the world differently than you do.

[Antithesis]

Loan contracts, the capital of the banking system and collaterals of the borrowers tell me that I'll have that 90% in 10 years.

Nope. It may tell you the amount of dollars you'll have, but not their future purchasing power.

If only we knew such thing...

Purchasing power is just a concept. Useless concept. You cannot compare dollars from 1930s with the ones that are in circulation today. The loans from 1930s have long been paid off. Today's dollars are maybe from the loans that were issued last week. So you are comparing apples and oranges.

[BlackHatCoiner]

You cannot compare dollars from 1930s with the one that are in circulation today.

And how will I compare 2022's dollars with 2032's? You're contradicting yourself.

[Antithesis]

You cannot compare dollars from 1930s with the one that are in circulation today.

And how will I compare 2022's dollars with 2032's? You're contradicting yourself.

Not via purchasing power.

[Iron Fist]

Value is in the things that you can live off of.

Okay, so you playing stupid now? Don't make things up to fit your needs.
In simple terms, value is the market price of something (or its monetary worth, according to the most-common definition).

value noun
val·​ue | \ ˈval-(ˌ)yü  \

Definition of value
1: the monetary worth of something : MARKET PRICE
2: a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
3: relative worth, utility, or importance
4: something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable
5: a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/value

[franky1]

funny part is..
antithesis thinks he can live off of shares. he thinks he can buy a pizza using shares..
.. good thing i have btc, i can buy pizza with btc.

while he starves himself investing in shares, i will feed myself using btc