Bitcoin Forum

Tornado cash(ETH mixer) has already been forced to shut down (giving a 404 https://tornado.cash )

Going by Secretary Blinken's tweet, they seem to be on a hunt and anyone could be next.
https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1556677862345801728

What are the chances of coinjoin and chipmixer getting in their scope? No service can judge a user and their intention for using their mixer.

Anyhow, we will always have BTC LN for enhanced privacy if you are worried due to this recent news ;)

The US Treasury department is indirectly telling the mixing platform that, “if you are going to allow a lot of illicit activity, we are going to go after you even if there is a lot of legitimate activity" Same thing is applicable to other mixers. As it has been known to everyone including fraudster that mixer help complicate the tracking of a cryptocurrency transaction.

N/B: The quote is owned by ARI REDBORD, Head of Legal and Government Affairs, TRM Labs.

AFAIK, governements have been going after mixers for quite a while now... I'm pretty sure that IF they find a mixer operating from a country where the government doesn't quite like crypto, they'll be closed.

I don't think this is anything new. Governements don't want privacy, they want taxes, and you can't tax things they cannot find/trace... Sure, it's nice that the couple percent of illicit transactions cannot be mixed either, but i somewhat doubt this is their primary objective...

I don't know but I have said it repeatedly. I don't see much of a future in a business model that consists of obfuscating the origin of funds, when in the world the trend is the opposite. Everything is becoming more and more KYC, even people pay for everything with their mobile, deblocking it with the face ID, so that Apple or whatever company it is, apart from many other data, knows the face of that person.


That is clear. What they want is to collect more and more, and since Bitcoin is not controlled by a central bank, they take other measures with that excuse.

by using a mixer even if you are not a criminal. an exchange WILL and DOES flag you as suspicious and start to want to look at your account and activity alot closer than someone that does not use a mixer.

EG 2009-14 bitcoin was an asset/digital product.. but as soon as it mainstreamed as "currency" that triggered regulators to treat exchanges not as a product swap/merchant(like an auction house/pokemon card swap shop). but instead as a money service business(like forex). which means that the exchanges have to flag up certain things like mixing service even before proving someone is a criminal.
its called a SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY REPORT, not a crime witness statement.

exchanges do not have to witness an actual crime first, and link that to a user that then mixes to then suspect it as laundering.
exchanges flag a customer that uses mixers as a suspect of laundering first. reports them, investigates the customer to see if there is THEN any extra chance of them being a criminal. where the authorities if they can find a connection to a criminal act (after receiving the SAR) then gets a court order to freeze the account

so using a mixer is not going to help you fly under the radar and continue on with exchange activity unnoticed.
you will be listed on a watch list and looked at even closer than other customers that dont use mixers

if there were 2 people walking down the street, both carrying a suitcase
one guy wears a suit and just walks normally..
the other guy has a anti-gov shirt on, tries hiding behind bushes and avoids camera's.. everyone starts to look at the suspicious person where they start to think 'whats in the suitcase', is it drub money, is it a bomb.

do you lot get the hint yet. trying to hide gets you noticed more. your actions become the opposite of your intentions

even if it is not about a 'criminal act' there are tax related flags too, whether its evasion(illegal) or avoidance(legal) exchanges need to look at their customers closer when certain flags are hit.

the reality is adding more "privacy" features to crypto does not make regulators give up and walk away, it makes them step up and move closer to adding more rules of use for crypto

There are speculations bitmixer(.io) was closed for similar reasons back when that happened (many years ago) - chipmixer sprung up from the ashes of its demise though (not saying the two are linked but it might be possible for chipmixer to sell their assets and reputation to another/a new mixer if they think they're about to be told to stop operating - especially if they were denonymised and can work out how).

If there's a gap in a market something will spring up in the place of the last one though so it will probably become futile for them to even bother closing them down.

Possible, they could be setting up grounds to entangle crypto within their regulations. They will at least try, that's for sure. This is why BTC and PoW will never die  ;)

I still love my privacy tho. I don't want any of my personal information to get leaked(sometimes intentionally by rogue employees) and get into the hands of bad actors. Nor would I like some entity(read apple,facebook, google) to have ay kind of influence over me.
Obfuscation of personal funds is a part of maintaining that privacy. To protect info about my spending mostly.

Monero and BTC LN are better suited for such task than mixers imo. Regardless of what's more efficient, it's still an attack on our privacy.

They can certainly try. There's an active bounty of a million dollar by IRS on monero  ;D And we got BTC LN too. imo, BTC LN should suffice for privacy needs for a common man like me.

No worries, I will do a P2P trade.

Developers need to create the kind of privacy feature that can't be abused/misused by criminals including those in government. If you can't develop a privacy application (for example) that is hard to abuse, better not develop at all because you will be creating more problems instead of solving problems without creating more problems.

I believe the only way to avoid the government is to solve problems in the manner listed above.  

I am not anti-tax (unlike the late McAfee). People should be mixing their transactions to avoid surveillence from all kinds of monitors including the NSA and Chain-analysis companies, but not the IRS.

Pay your taxes guys. Capital gains only apply if you are trading cryptos [and even then ONLY if you cash out], not for HODLing crypto for a few months or years. Nobody charges a capital gains tax if the bulk of your money is in EUR and it suddenly rises up against the dollar.

any privacy tool. whether it is LN, liquid, monero.. are simply avoided by policy following regulated exchanges
coinbase is sister company of projects like LN and liquid. yet coinbase AVOIDS using its sister projects due to the default suspicious activity flags they trigger


some idiotic people then pretend that bitcoin is broke by its transparency and want to swap their pretend broke. for a real break by making bitcoin fully untraceable by breaking the transaction chaining of txo's vs utxo's(spent vs unspent) aka taint

the thing is bitcoins feature of linking someone's coin back to its hard rule creation method(mining reward), is actually a GOOD MONEY feature of security that ensures that bitcoin cant be counterfeited or new coin cant just be added in outside the hard rule
breaking the tracking/accounting of bitcoin breaks bitcoins utility as money/currency/asset. just for the selfish whims of shady people that are too lazy to think about how they personally should hide their activities and instead want other services/projects to do the hiding for their lazy asses

what you dont realise is that.. lets use LN for instance (the ignorant network)
regulators are already creating crypto laws where anyone facilitating the funds transfer of other people for a payment/commission is to be deemed as a money transmitter/money service business.
the idiot ignorant network people tried and failed to pretend that the law was a bitcoin attack on developers and miners.. yet that was just their sales pitch to (fail) to convince people that bitcoin was broke to advertise their altnet as the solution.

the reality is that LN routers, processing payments for a fee, then become the money transmitters/money services. where anyone offering routing on LN has to in the future register as a money service business and follow the same regulations as public exchanges.
yep the way they designed LN actually makes LN a network that requires its users to become regulated/licenced businesses just to remain legally able to stay operating.


liquid and monero is not seeing much transaction processing which shows how many people and business are avoiding using those because using those gets them watchlisted. so they just avoid even using them.

bitcoin is not broke and bitcoin does not ask for KYC but makes it easy for someone to prove their coins are not from malicious sources(for those not doing malicious tasks) and so those clean people get to transact easily without having to get watchlisted/frozen/questioned.

its the idiots that want to hide that end up getting noticed by their methods of hiding
them inventing fake problems to try to then demand solutions is a fools errand

No party last forever but if current generation of mixers are broken down, there will be more future generations and governments always chase behind the citizen innovations. It is similar to Great Fire Walls in China that can not prevent 100% users there to access beyond that Great Fire Walls.

Not sure how ChipMixer created and registered on the Internet since the first place but if the governments can not find team behind it (that I believe it is), they can not shut down a service. Shut down a current domain does not make sense.

They are always trying to find reasons to do so. Mixers are used to improve the privacy and you bet that they're not a fan of it.

Sanctions and restrictions are not always helpful in certain cases. Some mixers are exclusively operating in territories that doesn't comply with court orders or have very different legislation from that of US. You can attempt to limit or ban connections to that website but it can be difficult to pursue those that operate on Tor or without a physical identity.

you do know the DCG.. that employed developers in blockstream to make LN and liquid.
https://dcg.co/portfolio/#b  
https://dcg.co/portfolio/#l

are the same company that own chain analyse businesses and exchanges and share info with other businesses.
https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c

using privacy tools. wont hide you from being watched. it will actually HIGHLIGHT you as someone to watch closer
yes all the companies of DCG share their customers data
..
you need to realise they are making privacy tools and trying to break bitcoin not for users needs. but for their business profits and policies of trying to falsely tell people who are not doing illicit things, should use tools that put innocent people onto watchlists, so that they can share information for profit about everyone that they can gather into their service/project

take someone never using a mixer. under coinbase policy it preserves data on only coinbase database.. but if a user was to have a suspicion flag. then they can share that info with its partner businesses and authorities. so they can make profit and sell data by making people look suspicious

just look at the advocates, influencers and fangirls of the blockstream(dcg) community.. they are always the most vocal idiots shouting how bitcoin is broke and everyone should move over to other networks or use middlemen services. they are the ones that say bitcoin cant cope with normal daily use bitcoin by normal people, while then advertising that bitcoin needs to spam up more blocks with mixer data.

realise their motives. its all for selfish profit and greed

did you know that there is big business in finding out info about people
forget about the illegal/legal activity thing.
just 'data mining' in of itself is big business

did you know that exchanges that know what region of a country you live in, value that information ALOT
they can work out your residential electric cost and calculate the mining cost that user would have if they mined to assign that customer a 'market support level' of what they deem as what that person thinks is a good bitcoin price.

EG cheapest mining on planet is about $13k/btc (hardware ROI included)
EG region of america at 12cent electric is about $19k (hardware ROI included)

so by exchanges knowing that this american could be a btc buyer when the price is below $19k and a btc miner(seller) when the price is above $19k becomes valuable info to then collate with other users data to then work out the whims of the 'support levels' of bitcoin market prices

yep just knowing user 123xyz is from 12cent electric region is worth something to analysts
and the DCG know this stuff and share this stuff

they dont care about peoples privacy. they just want to move people into different services they can profit from for different reasons.
privacy guess get syphoned off their value via the fee's of using privacy tools and normal people get their data sold.

Governments have and will always target privacy, especially when it has to do with financial privacy. Bitcoin's pseudonymous nature is already a pain in the ass for governments obnoxious efforts at tracking people's finances effectively, and then mixers that conceals the relationship between addresses causes them more pain i'm pretty sure.
Absolutely anything that is created in this world can be abused and used by people wrongly, it doesn't mean that what was produced has any inherent/intrinsic problems, it is just what it is. Quite a lot of people erroneously claim that Bitcoin is used for crime and a whole lot of bad things, but that is not true, neither is it what it was created for.

There is no single utopian system in the world which has not been exploited by bad actors. Banks which are constructs of the government have been involved in numerous illegal activities, some which it has mediated or actually carried out itself.

That's an impossible ask from developers. And the reality is the government does not really care about bad actors or the minority which uses it for illegal activities, the focus is on untraceable movement of assets to acquire more taxes and revenue.

Mixers are made to increase privacy and keep the transaction anonymous to keep them away from getting tracked by the governments, so, that's very normal to see the governments and not only the US government targeting mixers, because they want to track people as much as they can and mixers are agaist it, that's why it's not surprising to see governments are trying to shut down the bitcoin mixers soon. Generally, it's not new to see the government of the USA is against the mixers.

take your tin foil hats off

governments do not have offices of employees actively watching all citizens. FACT
governments have rules where BUSINESSES have to watch their customers. and the BUSINESS has to flag customers the business finds suspicious and report only those suspicious people. FACT

try to read some laws, regulations and MSB policies guides

then realise its the businesses that have the watchlists. and then look into how businesses operate.

a business can share information more freely if said business deems their customer is acting suspicious as it then allows them to bypass 'privacy policy' . by which those businesses can make money out of that data.

its the reason that governments say if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to worry about because governments wont ever see or read about you unless you are doing something suspicious that gets reported to them.

they are not actively watching you daily. they sit and wait for businesses and services to report you to them

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by using a mixer. that act alone puts a 'suspicious' flag rating on your account with the business.. that business can then investigate you by passing that info around and to authorities to see if you have a criminal record or any previous court charges against you to see if you are a risk.

where as not using a mixer. you dont get a second glance or looked at in depth

https://i.imgur.com/XX2jvRc.png

Governments have been after bitcoin and anything related to it ever since 2008 which is before the first bitcoin block was mined! They have been specifically going after anything that has any traces of centralization, that includes all the services like exchanges, altcoins that are centralized and obviously centralized mixers. In other words if they could shut them down, they would have already done it. Doesn't mean they are going to stop though.

It's pretty normal governance doesn't like hiding your funds or income. So they will try to prevent you from using a mixer. I am not sure if the US can shut down mixers from any other country where Bitcoin is legal tender like El Salvador. Or can they shut down if it's operating through onion? I can't recall but have seen the government close and takeover the mixer site before. So it's possible they will attack the Bitcoin mixer as well. But for sure, people will discover something to hide their privacy.

Judging by what was revealed (https://www.investopedia.com/news/nsa-worked-track-down-bitcoin-users-snowden-papers-reveal/) to us by the largest defector in recent American history, it is clear that they harnessed very large resources to deal with the Bitcoin problem. I would not even expect a different approach from all those who fight in every way to centralize society as much as possible, and Bitcoin is a thorn in their side, even though it has been proven many times that when it comes to financing terrorism or money laundering, Bitcoin is quite negligible in every sense.

If Bitcoin is a problem for them, then there is no doubt that mixers are something that is considered a legitimate target - although for every one they manage to shut down, there are at least 2 new ones. The problem for users is that there are many more fake ones than legitimate ones, which is another story...

It's a strange coincidence that both chipmixer and tornadocash both stop working in similar time, so I would say they are all under coordinated attack of government bullies.
They have the task to totally remove all privacy and anonymity and make them illegal, so anyone who is supporting this activity is indirectly working against himself.
I don't think that only crypto is under attack, next one is probably social networks and anything related with internet activity, payments and digital identity, as well as removing cash as payment option.

Maybe LN is still under the radar but if larger amount of coins is moved to LN and liquidity increases, it won't be so hard for them to make Lightning illegal.
Heck they can even make speaking, and walking illegal if they want, so people really need to think if they want to have government like that.

Standard franky1 response, the forum's biggest enemy of freedom and privacy.  He's practically jizzing his pants at the prospect of Bitcoin becoming an authoritarian tool for surveillance, which is why he hates Mixers, the Lightning Network and any developers who believe privacy should be enshrined within the protocol.  I haven't checked, but it wouldn't surprise me if faketoshi has a similar stance on the subject.  Their views always seem to align.  Sinister and deceitful little shits, the pair of 'em.

Any centralized platform is open to being targeted and destroyed.  Authoritarians the world over don't like privacy for anyone about anything, bitcoin is just one of the targets.  Cash is another - look at the countries trying to limit the amount of cash one uses, reporting larger deposits or withdrawals etc.  Speech is another, look at the fascists/socialists/communists/authoritarians on social media who don't want anonymous speech and want everyone to be verified.  Without the ability to be anonymous, free speech isn't free.

The only response is to have privacy built in the protocol itself.  Otherwise it becomes a flag for suspicious activity for anyone wanting to control bitcoin.  One of the biggest threats to bitcoin is the lack of the ability to be anonymous.

I am certainly not surprised by this. One of my biggest worries about/for bitcoin has always been the push or want to move it to an anonymous coin, like Monero. This is a perfect example of why that would be a massive problem for bitcoins global adoption. Governments simply won’t allow for it.

doomad
the sheep of all sheep hates people that dont kiss ass to toe the party rhetoric of trying to say bitcoin is unfit and thus should be broken more and offramp people away from just using bitcoin as is

you yourself dont want people using bitcoin. but you want them to stop using bitcoin daily. you want them locking funds up into processes that require other people to authorise movements.
yep both wasabi coinjoin and LN require authorisation by other people..
then you think its then perfectly acceptable to spam bitcoin with useless mixer transactions.. hypocrite.
you think there is not enough room for normal use but there is room for multiple wasted transactions for what you pretend is 'privacy'


go play with your altnet and middleman services for profit.
you always fail in your attempts to offer a new service or altnet as a saviour/solution to something. because you dont understand what bitcoins purpose was from the start
bitcoin does not ask for KYC so pretending bitcoin is broke is a fallacy. its not a bitcoin problem.. its a alternate service that people have to opt into that is the things that are causing the problems

the very thing you promote are the things that flag people as suspicious. thus get their data mined and shared even more..

Bitcoin mixers and coinjoin services could be the next target for sure! Mixers are used for enhanced privacy but there's no denying that it could also be used to hide the trail of dirty money and criminal proceeds. It is impossible for a mixer service to understand why the users are using it for. So bitcoin mixers can face the wrath of the US authorities anytime in future.

LN is here now but if they are forced to shut down the nodes, they will be forced to shut down their services as well. I know it's extremely difficult but not impossible!

Without a doubt!  IMHO this is a signal and a harbinger of things to come.  One would have to live in an alternate reality to not consider this.  This is the first domino to fall in the targeting of mixers.

I'm curious to know, how fascist can it go? What's next? Forcing me to use a digital currency wherein I gain zero privacy? Forcing me to have a spying camera in my home? Criminalizing cryptography, natural resources, living normally? All these, as always, for the sake of the "community".

---

"Ignore" exists for this one reason, damn. And that reason is this crappy fascist piece of shit called franky.

I really don't understand why pro-establishment guys visit this forum, let alone post on it.

Bitcoin has a certain philosophy that attracts a certain target group... if you don't like it, why bother with it?

Maybe someone should register www.cbdctalk.org ;D

funny part is doomad loves centralisation. its why he cries so hard when people dont follow his group mindset

bitcoin never asks for peoples names..
it never asks you to use a middleman service. and it never should

those wanting people to lock funds up and have a co-partner have to agree on payments or a membership ring of people agree on splitting funds, or having to custodianise funds.. is not what bitcoin is about

its easy to spot the greedy immoral and unethical people that want to centralise and break bitcoin by trying to push and force people into these side and sub services while pretending these side and sub services are next get bitcoin or bitcoin 2.0

they are not. they are greedy central crap of gaining control of people and make innocent people look suspicious by swapping good coin for bad coin but pretending its no harm to the good people. when the reality is the opposite

cry all they like that i call them out for their actions.. but i dont care. they need to be called out
if their side services were so private and so independant they would not need other people to join into their schemes

the only reasons the try to pull innocent people into their schemes is because their schemes dont work without innocent people how else will dirty people get clean coin if no clean people use a dirty system
think about it, realise it, just dont fall for it

using mixers and privacy tools will get you flagged as a suspect and then when they see your coin from a mixer is not the clean coin you had but now some dirty coin from some con artist that told you to use a mixer.. now you have even more questions to answer to.. while the con artists, scammers, fraudsters and manipulative freaks are now playing with your old clean coin. not caring about the mess they have handed you.. not their coin not their problem

simply dont be fooled.. mixers do not help you remain private.
bitcoin does not tell a service if you bought a teddy bear, a box of chocolates or a blow up doll.. (using things i imagine doomad doing to prepare for a date(with himself)) .. so he has no worry about bitcoin revealing his sex life.

however by him swapping his coins for someone elses clean coins. he no longer has traces of his 'change' from a sex shop being tracked back to him.. but now someone else is now suspected of mixing and now has to explain that their funds came from shop

The only problem with mixers is that exchanges will flag your funds suspicious, whether they're are or not.

With Monero I can deposit XMR on famous exchanges like Binance or Kraken and nobody will care...

Will they ask for KYC? Yeah.

Does it matter (for XMR, not BTC)? No, because tracing funds is not possible, so KYC is useless for privacy altcoins.

Privacy on the protocol level is not bad IMHO, it's just not very popular. And it might hinder BTC's institutional adoption, so it's unlikely to happen.

It's like comparing Linux with security extensions (SELinux) vs OpenBSD.

OpenBSD has those security extensions by default, like XMR has privacy by default.

Using mixers requires jumping hoops... LN is more user-friendly, but it's off-chain. Once you settle those funds on-chain, you're no longer truly anonymous.

I believe both BTC and XMR have a bright future ahead, but for different use cases.

The fact that you categorize coins to "clean" and "dirty" means you don't treat bitcoin as fungible, which is objectively bad for a currency. You're an enemy for bitcoin, and besides all that anti-privacy and anti-freedom attitude you've revealed so far, this very post definitely proves it, because it isn't a matter of opinions; tainting is just plainly bad and anti-bitcoin.

This is the address I'm using to get paid for wearing the ChipMixer signature: bc1qk03lmlltsp5ulsqjpu84qu394m3mgpqeqkl3vl. I challenge you to trace my spent transaction outputs I've sent to ChipMixer.

Ever heard of chain analysis companies?

I like how the secretary thinks that the mixer WAS the terrorist group and that group set up the mixer to launder money. If other laws are also made by mistake because someone thought something about something, we are fucked.

The US can only ban thing on their own land. They can't ban a mixer that operates somewhere in Asia and is accessible all around the world. Look how they wanted to ban torrents. They Closed down TPB, but if you want to get a movie using a torrent, you can do it even easier and faster than in the times of TPB.

That's bullshit. Can you create a knife that can't be abused by criminals? Can government print money that can't be abused by criminals? Can computer manufacturers create computers that can't be abused by criminals?


It depends on the country where you live, in some countries where corruption is very high, I think people should do everything to avoid taxes. If I have to pay taxes, then the law should be law for everyone and the taxes should be used to support the interest of countries!
Also, it's very unfair to pay taxes when you are self-employed.

Taxes fund the Great Reset agenda and corrupt governments that ruin the whole West.

Sorry, but I do NOT want to pay for that.

Why is every post about these topics i read from you, caring more about/ defending some stone age/ surveillance loving regulators interest, than caring about Bitcoin/ its users? Theyre laughing about fools like you that buy into this nonsense, that goes against their own interests and still defend it and push this agenda for free.

Its certain people that are broken, not Bitcoin. Youre differentiating between coins yourself, using words like clean and shady peoples coin. Words from the fascist toolkit, that tries to separate people into good and bad. Even tho these people are simply making use of their rights without any evidence of crime.


Governments found the perfect fool with this one. Keep barking your nonsene, chihuahua. It wont change reality. Im not sure how you were smart enough to get into Bitcoin, but then have complete cognitive dissonance in other topics.

Not only to avoid getting tracked by the governments but also by some people and companies especially if they did something shady. This news is not new but there are other countries before U.S that did the same thing to the mixers.

I remember some users are worried that popular mixers such as chipmixer are now going to be next but luckily they have survived but I don't know about this one. Maybe they still can since the one that U.S ban there are eth based mixers but mixers like chipmixer are I think for bitcoin. We can add another question and that is; will the privacy coins' next? Their brand name which is "privacy" says it all.

It seems obvious to me that Bitcoin mixers are nothing more than money laundering.  I'm a bit surprised they've been allowed to advertise here for so long.  I would guess that is going to come to an end before too much longer.  I just hope that anyone who accepts coins from users of the service don't get their accounts locked on exchanges or have to deal with investigations.  We wanted more regulation and inclusion in the legacy financial systems right?  Be careful what you wish for.  Be aware that the crackdown on mixers has begun.

So, when crackdown for commercial banks, which at the moment we're talking are responsible for the money laundering of the century?

https://medium.com/kyc-io-scalable-kyc-management-solutions/the-5-largest-money-laundering-scandals-of-all-time-so-far-d30ff4abee10
https://medium.com/technicity/big-banks-are-at-the-front-center-of-money-laundering-of-over-2-trillion-299feea4c58e
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bank-scandal-2020-2-trillion-transaction-suspected-illegal-activity-money-laundering/
https://qz.com/938504/the-top-50-global-banks-allegedly-involved-in-the-20-8-billion-russian-laundromat-money-laundering-scheme/

(That's just from a quick search (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=banks+money+laundering+scandals&ia=web))

Such a clown user; wanting to shut down privacy enhancing tools, because a minority (or majority, couldn't care less) uses it to launder money. Completely opposed to the freedom and privacy parts of bitcoin, and he's paradoxically been here since the early days.

I wonder how the Elites are going to buy drugs & hookers, assuming they shut down all the loopholes in the system. With CBDCs? Yeah, right! :D

Only socialist fools believe that you can change human nature. Not gonna happen, sorry. Accept human nature with its flaws and vices.

i am not anti-privacy..
i am the one telling you fools that by using mixers you are making yourself be put onto watch lists, thus losing the privacy you pretend to want

grow up. read some laws and business policies and actually learn proper ways to stay private that dont involve you advertising some middle man service and dont involve pretending bitcoin is broke to then sell an idea to actually break bitcoin for your selfish motives
...

satoshi has made transactions before. its all public.. but he has not been found. and yes he done address re-use too
12 years and no one has found him. he had no need of mixers or altnets to hide his tracks

i have done hundreds to thousands of transactions. in the last 10 years and guess what no ones found me
ive never used mixers and never intend to..
in fact there was a competition a few months  back where i received a prize from a mixer and guess what im not gonna touch those coins because now those coins are deemed as suspicious due to coming from a mixer, so i dont intend to spend them
because putting coins in from a mixer is a sure fire way to get noticed by exchanges suspicious activity flags.  

i am not going to compromise my privacy due to having the stupid mixed coins associated to me.

so grow up read some laws and polieis and learn how to actually remain under the radar of exchanges policies and watchlists.
..
no currency requires fungibility to be 'good money' even fiat is not fungible

taking funds out of an exchange in fiat is treated differently (cap gains) than taking fiat from an employer(income tax)
taking $10k across the border is treated differently that putting $10k down as a deposit for a house

there are 'proceeds of crime' laws accessory to a crime lays. money laundering laws
if fiat was fungible there would be no need to launder. but they do laundering because fiat is not fungible.

so stop pretending bitcoin need to break its accounting system that breaks it a store of value proposition, just to hide your shady deals

if you want to be shady. go use an altcoin


again it needs to be said as your group seems to ignore.
bitcoins main feature of provable origins right back to its coin reward creation is the very fact that bitcoin is good money. because it proves no one can counterfeit it and cant just add more coins to the supply at a whim

i know you lot want to break those rules. dont play coy.. you are not that subtle

bitcoins blockchain does not store details of how much drugs or sex dolls you bought.
you will not find one transaction that reveals what you have purchased.
so grow up pretending bitcoin reveals peoples purchase details down to how many cocksocks they bought at the same time as the sex doll.. bitcoin does not reveal or request that info
oh funny part. LN invoices has a data field where people can note down purchase details. and LN hasa explorer site revealing all the retailers and merchants channels.. so yea LN promoted as a privacy tool.. is not as private as promoted.
but shhhh i said too much



ok show me on the blockchain. any transaction you can find from anyone that says that the transaction was used to buy...
alpaca socks. bitcoin cupcakes(things that were around before people cared about mixers)
i guarantee you no blockchain data will show you this.

the blockchain is not the problem and so the blockchain is not broke

the very fact that you openly just posted one of your wage receipts addresses reveals you dont care about your own privacy. because yep.. the way people start to associate funds to people is when people offer up their info publicly. like you just did.
you also could have donated more then a dolar to tor project if you really cared that much

like i said before
have you ever realised your loyal kings you idolise, you know the developers of blockstream brink and chaincode labs. all funded by DCG. you know the ones that made LN and liquid and done segwit for you..
the devs of blockstream that helped make code for moneros cofidential payments system, yep they also work for .. the company that owns chain analysis
yep they own chain analysis

so why cry to me about your hate of chain analysis and exchanges that share data.. when it is your own idols you treat as kings that are the ones doing the things you pretend to hate

if you really do hate chain analysis and coinbase's policies.. go talk to your idols. they are colleagues of them
https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c

or has all your ass kissing and showing loyalty not earned you any respect by them to even listen to your cries

..
back to the point..
you silly fools only care about pretending that bitcoin by itself is broke and people need to go use middlemen services and need to partner/member up with others to swap coins even if they dont need to..
the only reason why.. is because you malicious people doing dirty things cant just swap between yourselves because dirty mixing with dirty just leaves more dirt.

you want naive guys that dont break laws and dont buy drugs or sell drugs to hand over their coins that are not tainted. so that you can have their coins and you can hand them your coins

99% of people are not malicious like you lot so we dont need to use your services.
so go play with yourselves on your altnets. and stop trying to dupe other people into partnering up with you

your games are not subtle nor original.

..
i am on no watchlist, i am not being investigated. i have not had my coins taint pushed forward in an SAR report to authorities. because .. yep i dont do shady suspicious crap
so stop pretending that everyone in bitcoin needs to do shady crap in a failed attempt that if everyone looks shady then it protects your shady activities by hiding everyone in a shadow of everyone appearing suspicious.

that game wont make regulators stop and give up
take a lesson from reality and not your groups utopian dreams

think for once. do the research and learn a few things

franky1 to me seems to be the stereotypical forum contrarian personality type.

Every forum has at least one famous contrarian...

People simply doing legit transactions using privacy services, franky:

Do you start to get the notion that its people themselves that cant handle transparency and try to separate between coins for unproven accusations? The only consideration to build privacy by default is because fools like you literally cant handle it, to simply treat each coin equally. Its so simple, but youre starting to make voodoo out of which coins to accept and which not. We have adults fighting over which money to accept and claiming that censorship and surveillance is beneficial. Are we in a kindergarten?

yawn yawn yawn

no currency anywhere in the world has ever had fungibility. its the myth of 'trust'
fiat is not fungible. there are many many laws made to treat fiat differently for different purposes and handled by different people,

pretending bitcoin is broke because it doesnt meet some mythical standard. is the exact excuse the dozen idiots cry as their pretense of wanting to break bitcoins good money principles of its coin creation rules and accounting system. all so that later they can ultimately dismantle bitcoin for any use, and then proclaim their altnet as the winner and thing people should use instead(for their greedy intentions)
wake up to the game being played

they want your (possibly an innocent user, if they have not fully converted you yet) to become shady and earn yourself some suspicion rating to then point fingers and say 'look we told you so, the gov are now tracking you'

again by using a mixer even if you previously didnt need it now puts you on the watch list. they want everyone on the watchlist. hoping that regulators give up watching due to having everyone on it.. (hiding in the crowd of criminals by having everyone treated as a criminal, thus hoping to not get caught themselves because now innocent people are suspects too..
its not an original or new game. but that game has failed in all currencies it was tried in history



people that use mixers, then get their funds flagged which then gets them stuck in the minutia of KYC and SAR investigations, which they then cry about being attacked by SAR reports and investigations.. not realising its their own actions that put them onto watch lists.

there are thousands of people that just use bitcoin for bitcoin. not using mixers. and they dont get their funds flagged when using exchanges.
bitcoin does not contain "extra data" about ID or items purchased. so again bitcoin is not breaking privacy.
its the fools that then separately reveal info about themselves

EG pasting their addresses on forums, telling people on forums what they bought. all that stuff is not privacy preserving factors

ive never been on a watch list. because i bother to read exchanges policies handbooks they produce. i read their policies and rules and terms and conditions and i find out whats acceptable and not and then avoid the stuff that will get me flagged/watched

yep. coinbase doesnt run investigations on everyone. however if your flagged as suspicious. then they share that data with dozens of other exchanges and merchant tools their sister company owns. and suddenly your data is everywhere..
by avoiding the things that flag you as suspect you wont get investigated.. its that simple. your data wont be spread out. its that simple
bitcoin in any old or new form does not change those rules. because the rules of sharing data is not about blockchain its about the public data you give to services or publish elsewhere which they can gather.


and guess what.
for the (lost count now) Xth time of saying this.. using mixers and privacy tools wont hide you. it infact gets you noticed
so how about you(another member of team ignorance and LN/mixer advert adoration brigade) take your head out of their sand. and do some independent research, stop relying on the hugs and kisses of your small little group of pals who pat you on the back for toeing your party bus mantra. do some research for yourself to take care of your funds (because they are not going to insure them). look after yourself and do whats right for you. by learning what will and what wont get you put onto a watch list.

the little buddy group of the same dozen people pushing hard to advertise their schemes will not protect your coins. their interest is duping people into handing their coins over to them so they can hand their coins off .. their motives are selfish not selfless.
their promises and promotions are not what they seem and they cry when their schemes are called out.

so do your own research and realise mixers will not hide you. they will infact reveal you more then you want

if you cant grasp this very basic concept then let me say this once more
mixers will not hide you. they will infact reveal you more then you want

now sit back have a cup of coffee and let that fact soak in

There isn't a single person on this forum who utters those words more than you do.  Every time someone dares to have an independent thought in their head that doesn't tally up with your authoritarian headcase-ery, you suddenly act like they think Bitcoin is broken.  Just because people choose to supplement Bitcoin with other things, does not mean we think it's broken.  Some ingredients work great on their own, but that doesn't mean people can't combine ingredients together if it suits their tastes.  You don't get to dictate how and when people can combine Bitcoin with other things, you totalitarian faecal blemish. 



You're the one attempting (and failing) to hold Bitcoin to a standard that no longer exists.  Tell us again how Bitcoin now has "fake consensus" and how you'd ban softforks if it were up to you.  Or, better yet, don't, because we must have heard it a hundred times already.   ::)

The only broken thing around here is your fractured psyche.



Even if that were the case, and I'm not convinced it is, it still isn't your place to tell us we can't build things to enhance fungibility.  No one is forcing you to use them.  It's not a threat to you.  Therefore, it's none of your business.  So shut the hell up and let people do what they want.

Absolutely on point. Even though I understand all the liberal voices and I am one myself, there is no point in pursuing or using a system that leads people (both good and bad ones) into a deadlock. Once the regulations in the EU come into action, for instance, you can't transfer from a privately owned crypto address to an exchange for cash out / trading anymore IF the address itself doesn't undergo KYC upon deposit. Once you do the KYC and it then becomes evident you have been using a mixer, well, have fun getting that sorted out with (financial) authorities. I am sure there would be a wave of frozen funds that puts the nail in the coffin for mixing services anyway.

Edit:


Lol! Good one! I clicked several times on "fascist1" to get insight into the original post. It took me three times to realize what you actually did here @DooMad! :D

Going to keep that one in mind ;)

@franky1

Why would no currency anywhere in the world has ever had fungibility? What part am I missing here?

This reminds of the discussion whether something is decentralized or not. People argue that it is always either or. But decentralization is a spectrum. It is not either or. You could always argue in favor of both ends of the spectrum when it comes to Bitcoin, for instance. Saying that fiat is non-fungible fits into the same category in my opinion. There might certainly be aspects that speak against "perfect fungibility". At the same time there are a ton of aspects that speak against "perfect non-fungibility". In that case your point is at least one-sided, if not insufficiently rational. If fiat was perfectly non-fungible, the world would still be looking quite different, and Bitcoin would probably not exist (if it was perfectly non-fungible).  

as far that i know that btc mixer already been targeted we can take example of chipmixer that no longer have Public app available you know about Julian assange, Edward Snowden offcourse you well know about gov right they dont pretty like about "privacy"

This is nothing shocking to me. As they are unable to generate taxes from cryptos, how would they make money?

Yeah, but here's the thing:

They failed at destroying the bitcoin network, despite all the doom and gloom that the NSA report liked by Investopedia appears to imply. Why? Because you have to somehow track an address - and the only way you can do that is by knocking on an exchange's door, since full nodes don't leak anything in their traffic.

Instead of getting destroyed the network only became stronger and more resilient. I wonder if BTC tracking is still their "#1 priority" now that there are a horde of anon coins and mixers that have more "threatening" capabilities to them.

It implies that the NSA can collect [meta]data (see XKeyScore, PRISM), but is unable to do much meaningful stuff with it except for perhaps chasing down one, two, or three people at a time.

Against a swarm? They can do nothing about it - provided that it is actively progressing forward.

Why not develop this logic further? According to you, bitcoin mixers are just a tool to make dirty money cleaner, but what about money itself? Bitcoin is clearly a means of exchange, a means to transfer value across borders, and this value inevitably should include "illegal" things. If bitcoin hadn't been invented or "discovered", bitcoin laundering tools such as mixers wouldn't have existed, and everyone would have been living in a crimeless world. But it is now obvious to us all that we have lost this opportunity to live in a world of love and happiness because evil genius Satoshi Nakamoto created a criminal-friendly currency that is outside of the reach of governments. I'm surprised those governments haven't yet shut down this forum and put all its users in jail for promoting and glorification of criminal currency. I'm a bit surprised they've been allowed to glorify this thingy for so long.

The difference is that you can't launder money through banks. Corruption and money laundering exist guys but it's only for elites and these elites see that average joes have the possibility to launder money too because of bitcoin mixers, so, they want to prevent it and keep it on elite levels.
Did you commit crime? Hire the best lawyers and with fines, you'll escape. Average Joe can't hire the best lawyer and can't pay fines, I think that answer is clear now.

When you see these millionaires and billionaires, do you think that they were reading a bunch of books and studied enormously well in universities? Or do you think that they are into criminal schemes? The western world is very corrupt but corruption exists for elites, not for average joes.

We live in an era when the control of people is on another level, so a crackdown on mixers is inevitable.

I am preparing for that future. I am not going to be caught with a significant part of my net worth in undeclared Bitcoin, having gone through mixers, etc., which could be blacklisted or whatever.

Here we are talking about mixers, but there is another area where there is a certain freedom, namely casinos, which will not last long in the current situation.

Crypto casinos were very important in the history of Bitcoin from the beginning, but over the years they have been imposing more and more KYC requirements, and this is only going to get worse.

It's not going to be tomorrow, but I think in a couple of years or three at most we're going to see major changes in this regard.

The question is whether they wanted to destroy Bitcoin at all, and it seems to me that they knew that it was impossible, so they went in another direction. As you say, there should be no doubt that they knocked on the doors of many CEX and that they got a back entrance to use all the data they need.


There is some truth in what you are saying, but maybe the goal was to convince us that they did not succeed, but I think that they are much more powerful today than they were 10 years ago, that is, that they have much better tools for analysis and supervision. If mixers were as powerful as someone thinks, then terrorism would flourish, and the entire force would be devoted to finding and destroying such services.

Some may remember -> Breaking Mixing Services (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5117328.0)

It doesn’t matter, if centrally controlled currencies had it or not. The freedom to transact is one major component of freedom. Economically speaking it’s the only sane way to handle money too.

Let’s keep listening to regulators about what is good for prosperity and freedom, while both are eroding worldwide for more and more people. If you open the door to taint, you open the door to tyranny. The possibilities are endless for abuse. It needs to be fought right from the start, not when it’s too late. It doesn’t matter what reasons are brought up for it, because the result will be the same in the end.

People are. For the 1000th time. The only person saying this is you, that’s the irony.

You’re the one defending and cheering on for people that have no clue how Bitcoin works, but try to weaken it trough useless bs regulations.


It
Doesn’t
Matter.

The point is that you’re already under surveillance, you don’t have any privacy. Your identity is always revealed by using kyc services, therefore you had no privacy in the first place. No matter how well you read the guidelines and fly under the radar, everything is archived. Every step can be held against you, while innocent and you would need to prove you’re not guilty. If barely anyone cooperates on privacy, we won’t have it. It’s that simple. If adults want to devolve to kids and control every step their fellows make, the only way choice left could be taking the ability to separate between coins away. You probably still don’t understand why these behaviours and practices are a problem for everyone, not just the users you try to shun for wanting privacy.


You sit back and have a black coffee.

i gotta laugh

your "The freedom to transact is one major component of freedom" you pretend to promote.. but then you advertise a middle man service where people have to lock their value into a service to appear like its the only way people should transact...
.. sorry thats not freedom

you and your dozen buddies that say the same crap and run the same PR campaigns try to tell everyone their 'freedom' involves locking funds up with with middlemen mixers or with channel parties on another network.. sorry thats not freedom.

bitcoin is not the problem..
middlemen services and things requiring locking value up with partners/custodians and altnets channels is the problem

bitcoin does not ask for your name. bitcoin does not ask for an invoice of goods list.
(funny part is that LN actually does have a invoicing system)

imagine there are 2 people both depositing 0.1btc into an exchange
a.  bc1qU53r1 0.1 -> 1ch1pm1x3r 0.1 ->bc1qU53rxx 0.1 (user45)
   bc1qU53r45 0.1 -> 1ch1pm1x3r 0.1 ->bc1qU53ryy 0.1 (user1) -> bc1q3xch4n63 0.1

b. bc1qU53r2 0.1 ->  bc1q3xch4n63 0.1

guess who is going to get a suspicion flag
guess who then has to answer more questions and prove the source of funds
answer to both is user1 (a)

meanwhile the exchange does not know what user2(b) bought. and is not asked to tell them what they bought or prove the funds were from a legit source. exchanges wont have user2(b) on a watch list or be investigating them or asking them and deep questions per transaction, they are just another random user doing whatever daytrade they want without headaches

again bitcoin has never asked people to list their name or goods purchase list.

so do you get it yet
if exchanges are freezing your account. asking you to prove the source of your funds
dont blame bitcoin. blame your use of shady services that caused you to have a suspicion rating due to your suspicious activities

the solution to 'getting suspicion flags' because of your suspicious activities is not to promote more suspicious services people have to use. and definitely not to scare normal people into joining these suspicious services

so stop trying to recruit people into your shady services. which will cause them to have to then reveal more info to exchanges purely because they used your shady service that is falsely promoted as 'helping preserve privacy' when actual reality is the opposite

mixers promote highlighting and adding people to watchlists. mixers promote having accounts frozen and investigations being done. mixers promote exchanges sharing info to see where else you transact and what other businesses you use.

Judging from the tweet, I would agree that it seems the US authorities want to take cryptomixers down. They can only shut them down if a company is registered in the US, though, right? Or to forbid it from reaching US customers. But if it's registered and operates elsewhere, I don't think the US has the jurisdiction to intervene. To be honest, crypto mixers do seem like the shadiest thing on the crypto market because they are literally doing what money laundering is. And while some might be using them for privacy concerns and without actually laundering illegal money, I donit know if it's actually a common thing to do. I've personally never used a mixer.

Nice try, what did i advertise?

You dont understand that most newbies are already on a watchlist trough kyc. All their funds can be tied to their real identities. So whats their choice? Either they sell them all and acquire them again on a dex or theiy try to break the kyc trough other methods. Youre completely ignoring the problem/ surveillance that Big Brother is starting to introduce. Does it sound like a good future where most funds could potentially be linked to real identites and all services have blacklists and taint controls built-in? Dont you see any tyranny and abuse potential here? If you had the possibility to acquire a huge stash before this nonsense, it might not matter to you, because you can still selectively reveal which funds you send trough this process. But for others it will, when its all their wealth that will be fully traceable on one ledger with spend restrictions being enforced. The problem is people starting to introduce tyranny and youre defending this nonsense, not Bitcoin. The simple solution is to treat each coin the same, and youre saying the solution is to comply to tyranny and surveillance to stay under the radar. Youre the perfect example for that it could be a lost hope to try to make people cooperate on privacy and that you literally have to take the ability for discrimination away, so they will stop doing it. Youre making the case for protocol level changes by your own actions, if you didnt get it yet. If people simply wake up and take enough responsibility and agree to that its necessary for society to treat each unit of a currency the same no matter what, to achieve a free and prosperous society, none of this is necessary. Adult life and kindergarten is not that different it seems.


No one blamed bitcoin. Stop reflecting bs that only exists in your head onto other people.

Tbh, I always think BTC mixer service was a honey pot for certain alphabet agencies to lure in criminals. Some mixers might have a long history, haven't got burst yet or running with people's money so everyone trusts and uses it. Tho if I have to dilute my flow of BTC as much as I can, CEX/DEX with false KYC might be used with the mixer to mudding the BTC's trail further.

It's a good question for sure and am only getting this news just now.
Like, what really is the stand of the US government to have taken it up with the company. Its not like all users use the services of mixers for fraudulent intent but at most, users use them to ensure privacy and a very discrete transaction.

As much as this proposition could be true, I also think that, what your thinking right now could be the same idea that would be running in the heads of the agents in these agencies as well. Even if it isn't now, once they are done with the mixers, they would be sure to push there attention towards the CEX/DEX.

Maybe the us government is directing their attention to mixers because a large group of criminals are using this service to hide their criminal activities making it impossible for the authorities to track them down. And of course, since this is not a service that is acceptable by the government, genuine users will fall victim as well.

They always crack down on a service like this that has done something terribly wrong. So, if huge amounts are being washed onto any mixer, they'll go after them.
That's quick for them to take down tornado.cash as I know, it's been used by the hackers of zb exchange. Anything that's going to be associated with hacked funds, we also saw this particularly not only in exchanges but also to actual cryptos like Monero getting delisted from exchanges.

governments were not directly targetting mixers as it was delegated down to exchanges to blacklist and target mixers
and to put users of mixers onto watchlists and investigate and report users to the government
(standard MSB policy handbook of assigning risk to certain activities of suspicion of money laundering)

but when big deals of large illicit amounts are involved. then the government intervenes directly

it would be no surprise if the government will be after for these mixers, if there will be known illegal money transfers to their mixers. i believe, one thing the mixers can do is to cooperate with the government if they don't want their business shutdown. that's one thing i can see here as another route not to totally lose their business. they can't do anything when the government calls for their termination of services.

https://www.fatf-gafi.org/media/fatf/documents/recommendations/Updated-Guidance-VA-VASP.pdf
VA = Virtual Asset - VASP = Virtual Asset Service Provider - AEC = Anonymity-Enhanced Cryptocurrency
shhh dont tell certain people but LN is listed in the quote above, along with mixers and things like monero and liquid

shh dont tell certain people but altnets like LN, liquid are also deemed as suspicious, but shh dont tell then or the will cry and get angry

Sinne bitcoin is decentralized and I could easily run a chipmixer for bitcoin from a tent in the Sahara dessert, I doubt that all mixers can simply be shut of by the government. It will just be the question if there is one country in the world that allows them to operate and than we will not have a single issue.

the actual issue is by running more mixers and fooling people into using them. more coin gets 'tainted' with mixer spam. and then all the other services
"If the VASP cannot manage and mitigate the risks posed by engaging in such activities, then the VASP should not be permitted to engage in such activities."

in short and for the nth time.. using a mixer actually causes more issues than not using one, because using a mixer does raise a red flag

I've had time to read so much gathered bullshit from franky in one sentence.

Using a Bitcoin mixer grants you privacy. Yes. It does. It makes chain analysis' job harder, which are the kind of corporations that thrive to see you treating bitcoin as non-fungible. You don't give a solution to "tainting" by going along with them, but going against them. How? You don't deal with services that disallow certain bitcoins arbitrarily. Mixing coins or not doesn't make difference to tainted coins, because they're subjectively colored that way in the first place.

But, you're never going to understand this, because you're an authoritarian, anti-privacy, anti-freedom, anti-consensus and, ultimately, anti-bitcoin piece of shit.

There's nothing they can do but comply with whatever the government will ask them. Sadly, this is becoming the fact these days that mixers will be apprehended by the government and will be questioned for their actual purpose and service of theirs.
Before, it was not a big thing for the government because bitcoin and related services to it aren't on the mainstream but this time, they can't ignore it anymore as there's a huge money that's involve on this business.

Bitcoin itself is nothing good or bad, it's just money. It's not using dollars to buy cocaine that is illegal, its buying cocaine, meaning you could buy it with fiat, gold, stocks, bonds, crypto, exchange your house for it and its all illegal. It means, if you do launder money for doing bad things, you could launder it with fiat, crypto, stocks, golds or whatever and it's still illegal. Mixers are making it easier for people to launder it.

Just because you use crypto for it doesn't mean something bad, it just means that bitcoin is a currency and it depends on how you want to use it, legally or for doing illegal stuff and that means a lot to many people.

Reminds me of this skit by Monty Python lol
https://www.snotr.com/video/7882/Monty_Python_-_Village_Idiots

Imagine shilling for the government. 
There are plenty of ways to launder crypto, this solves nothing.
How about targeting actual criminals and fixing domestic flaws in the system which are exploited by bad actors?   (https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/19/delaware-illicit-finance-corruption-offshore-wealth-american-kleptocracy-book-excerpt/)

funny part is

idiots want to remain stupid.
i dont work for the government nor advocate for them..
quite the opposite actually

the thing is unlike stupid people who dont research or learn and instead the idiots rely on fear fantasy and scripts wrote up by like minded idiots or their 'hand-more-down' influencer.. i actually bother to do my research


here is what idiots do not learn

when they use a service. like an exchange. their details are just put on a exchange database that stays on the exchange server for 5 years and then destroyed.
as long as no red flags are triggered, governments do not see that data
why?.. well logic, common sense and research is this:
a business with 80million customers dont have enough employees to physically look at every customer. and governments dont have millions of employees watching hundreds of millions of peoples activity every day..
this is not defending a business or government. this is understanding the reality of life via fact and research

its the same as china. their government do not have billions of people to watch over billions of their citizens 24/7
so stop watching fox news tell you that china are all prisoners . they are not
its like how dumbnews.. oops i mean fox news says 'china is the enemy that no one wants to work with.. yet if you look at all trade. millions of companies work with china and make profit.


knowing the facts of life is not defending a government, its about understanding how things actually work instead of making things up to scare people

so by knowing how things work. i can fly under the radar and not get my exchange account record put into a SAR(suspicious activity report) that goes to government, simply by avoiding the things that services classify as a red flag.

so what is the main red flag.. yep using a mixer
so logic, common sense = what do you do to avoid having your info reach the government. yep not use a mixer

no where on a bitcoin blockchain will you find a note inside a tx that tells everyone what product you bought that day.
so pretending that using a mixer protects your privacy from being seen by a government is like saying

(a bank note does not have written on it how much pepsi you bought that day),
(casinos report customers handling large amounts of bank notes)
 but idiots want you to believe that bank notes do tell governments this so people need to use a casino to mix their bank notes.. yet by using a casino the government are then learning that you are suspicious and put your name on a watch list. thus the very fact of using a casino didnt hide you from the government. it actually got you put on a government watch list

so when idiots pretend 'casinos hide you from the government' .. they have it all wrong and are just telling people the wrong information

In my opinion as many people as possible should mix their coins. Then we will not have the issue that there are good and bad coins. If you begin to judge coins it will end that you will have different prices for clean and dirty bitcoins. If we have that we loose what is the core of every currency since forever.

Given that Mixers make your transactions more anonymous by mixing funds with other transactions, no wonder that governments are against it and they are consistently tracking them down. I remember, there was a mixer being advertised here in this forum and it was subsequently closed due to regulations and implementation issues.

Expect more mixers to be targeted consistently by the government due to their nature being highly risky and potentially dangerous to the public. Though I am against it, if the government decides to pursue something, they will be relentless and unforgiving at the same time.

Will you though? That's the problem, that's what they are aiming at. I mean if you are in the USA and you are doing it, then they will make it illegal, if you want to go to Sahara desert then you could do that but I guarantee you that most people will not do that. Make it harder to do, that's all laws could apply for, if you could make it harder then it's hard.

You could literally go to Mexico, which is one border away from the USA and then you will be able to do your mixing there as well, you do not need to go to Africa for it, just one border away. But if you make it illegal, then you will stop many people from doing it right away and that's what they aim at.

The Tornado Cash developer was just arrested. This feels like the beginning of the fight against mixers to me. I know if I was one of the chipmixer devs I’d be a bit concerned at the moment. Event those advertising for the obviously illegal money laundering service might be wise to take a step back before they get caught up in this. I wonder how long this fight against anonymous coins will continue and what the next attack vector will be.

Fight against mixers was inevitable and the more bitcoin gains distribution, adoption, influence, the more active and fierce the fight will be. Mixer developers had to think ahead and organize their services in such a way that the owners could not be identified and found, could not affect the performance of their services. I believe that the fight against mixers and anonymous coins will continue indefinitely (no government will like it): by eliminating one mixers/anonymous coins, another mixers/anonymous coins will appear - better and more confidential. The sharper the sword is sharpened, the thicker the armor will become.

its not about good or bad coins.
its not even about what silly people think that bitcoin tags on the products they bought that now need to be hidden(silly because bitcoin does not do this)

what it is about is this:
when idiots try to scare people and say that everyone should fear their bitcoin use, people shouldnt just use bitcoin for daily stuff. everyone should fear being on a watchlist just for buying groceries and office equipment/using bitcoin. where idiots then say everyone should use a mixer to hide what your doing to not be on a watchlist... yet the service they promote (mixer) is the trigger that gets people put on a watch list. no matter what they used bitcoin for

getting everyone to use a mixer WILL NOT make regulators just switch off and walk away..
it will just make bitcoin less used.
and yep thats what the silly idiots want. bitcoin to be less used.
their premise of the certain group of the same dozen idiots.. is to try to tarnish bitcoins natural utility of just transacting daily and normally.. to try to BS the community into fearing using bitcoin normally. scaring people into thinking bitcoin is not fit for purpose. and then advertising to scared people that they would be better off using another middleman service or altnet instead.. even when its the very same service or altnet which they advertise  is the cause where normal people would get red flagged

Imagine being arrested for developing an open source code  :)
I am 100% certain that they will make exchanges drop Monero from supported coins pretty soon. But where will they stop? Will they ban bridge swaps too?

Are you targeting LN? You certainly are the village idiot lol

Are you living in 2010? Ever heard of chain analysis and address labelling? You are delusional bro.

Now I am convinced, that you are definitely a troll lol
You are talking about money laundering in a condescending manner when you don't know jack about it.

The US and its bully antiques, well for starters mixers aren't some kind of licensed or legal service being provided out there and unfortunately this will continue to exist as crypto users try to keep their financial footprints to themselves or anonymous and by the way what's the US government interest in all this.... Do they feel this is a parallel economy supporting the Russians after their moves to squeeze them hasn't worked out as planned???

the reason i am condescending is because
there are people that are saying they dont understand why things are happening or wondering whats going to happen or dont know what things are considered a reg flag whereby i  literally point them to the regulations guidelines. i even quoted the regulation guidelines
yep i saved people from having to read loads of pages to get to the summary of the bits they needed to know

where then i see a certain know few people posting that for years have had malicious intent of trying to use other people for their personal groups agenda.. thus yes. i get extra condescending about those group of people

and instead of then LEARNING. they went on some social drama personal attack campaign trying desperately to not wake up and try to stay in the fantasy where they can convince themselves that the regulation guidelines dont exist so they can pretend they can think that mixers are safe

these regulations took me 20 second to find and anyone could have done it. so instead of crying and causing personal drama.. just for once.. actually read the point

yes anything that is classed as anonymity enhancing tools is a red flag

and yes that includes sidechains and altnets and mixers and tumblers

so go back and read the post again
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5409206.msg60729993#msg60729993

it lists
"whether it uses mainnet or the use of embedded layering or other scaling
solutions), or the additional services that the platform potentially incorporates
(such as a mixer or tumbler or other potential features for obfuscation)"

so thats not only moero, liquid, but LN and mixers, and tumblers. and other things too

yep they are already primed to have exchanges treat networks that use things like musig and mimblewimble and other confidential things as suspicious red flags, just by using them, no matter the reason you have used them

by me actually bothering to use google. and finding out.. doesnt make me an 'agent' or a troll.
i understand it makes people upset when someone tells you something you dont want to hear.

but how about understand whats being said rather than attack it pretending you can change their rules or dream the rules away by playing ignorant or destroy a law with insults on a forum
i insult certain people because for years now. they have a agenda to mess with the bitcoin community while they kiss ass and pretend to be everyones best friend.. and it seems a few people fall for their kiss assery

Yea, that's everything. Not just LN or monero. You can literally pick any coin and find a way to fit that definition.

According to your shitty source,
Being anonymous=being criminal. How about they prosecute all cash spenders and Vanila gift card holders too? Since these modes of payment "enhances" anonymity. 

Like I said, you know shit about money laundering. It's a process of cleaning your dirty money. If I want to hide my spendings, it doesn't make my money dirty. There's no logic here  :-X

Makes sense though, I mean mixers are there for one reason and that reason is to make sure that you do not follow where the bitcoin was or where it goes. Makes it harder to track, still not impossible because there are many data companies who are great at following where the money came from and where it is going etc etc, but it is definitely harder this way.

What I mean is that if you could ban all of these and make it illegal then you are protecting the citizens. If there is a big hacking to binance or coinbase or whatever, then mixers will be the first places that will get that money so it wouldn't be traced easily, why it is looking like people are trying to make it illegal.

The idea of being arrested for working on open source code does suck, but there are laws in place and as the lines between software and money are blurred, there will be consequences for those who are made an example out of. The Wild West days of crypto seem to be in the past. There may be a few things that have been grandfathered in, but it’s going to get harder and harder to enter the space with new financial innovations.

the source was a simple google search for the financial action task force's definitions of what THEY find suspicious to cause red flags..
the source was the FATF also known as the regulators (commonly called the finance police)

dont cry to me.
if you want to know what regulators define things as. guess what. you go check regulators definitions
i am not a regulator. i just dont fear things. when i want to know something i research it and find the source.
i dont play ignorant and get angry at people that provide information hoping ignorance makes rules/logic and reality not apply..

so thats just what i did.
linking you the source means you get to learn to. so now.. take a moment to take a breath. and realise what the rules are.. and then start looking at who you should actually be angry at.

i simply linked the regulators list of what they consider suspicious...
cry to them. or go cry to the DCG who are the crypto businesses that pretty much run most of the services that are regulated and lobbied for and against this stuff

but i do laugh how people when they get told that the world is not flat, think that its the human that told them's fault. and to blame the human for how the world works.
sorry but humans did not make the world round. basic logic of billions of years of 'spin' caused it. so blame physics and time and space.

..
heres another real world lesson to learn
bitcoin was great 2009-2014 it was not defined as currency and instead had the same freedoms as trading pokemon cards or colectables.
but as soon as it 'mainstreamed where governments defined it as currency. the negative effect of that is that currency laws then applied to crypto..

and as ognasty said the wild west days of crypto evolved where some things got grandfathered in. like accepting bitcoin as legal,where as other things like monero got considered by regulators currency policies as anonymity enhanced and thus suspicious
as are anonimity enhancing tools like mixers and also altnets that advertise themselves as enhancing privacy. which include (according to THEIR definitions)
"whether it uses mainnet or the use of embedded layering or other scaling
solutions), or the additional services that the platform potentially incorporates
(such as a mixer or tumbler or other potential features for obfuscation)"

thus liquid, LN and other networks that bridge to bitcoin that have features or promoted as obfuscating things
so yea that will include networks that use taproot
..
we dont have to like it. but atleast understanding it is the first step to knowing how to work around it or fight it.

and one funny lesson to learn
the main business services that lobbied for regulation(legitimisation) so that they can work legitimately in the crypto industry are:

coinbase-->DCG  https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c
kraken->DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#k
bitpay->DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#b
circle->https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c
ftx -DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#f
(exchange list goes on for a dozens of prominent exchanges)

and the main businesses that do the tracking and reporting
chainanalysis-> DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c

are the same group that pay the developers of
bitcoin core (blockstream ->DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#b
monero (blockstream dev created the confidential code that underpins it) -> DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#b
Lightning network ->DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#l
liquid -> DCG https://dcg.co/portfolio/#l

so if you want someone to get angry at for their lobbying efforts. go speak to DCG

if your talking about the "tornado" saga

he was not arrested for just being a developer
he was arrested for being involved in(law: aiding and abetting) "concealing criminal financial flows and facilitating money laundering"
he was not arrested for making software.. being a developer is not a crime.

lets not go into the ignorance land of conspiracy and fear. and instead stick to research

lets not start last years silly games of pretending any/all software developers will get arrested
(like how the social group of fans of DCG tried to say how 2021 euro laws about money transmitters was aimed at developers/miners(which it wasnt) the rules were about exchanges,mixers and things like LN routing and liquid "federations") that get paid a fee/commission for facilitating the transfer of value on behalf of other people

oh.
and to those that shout "its unconstitutional"
sorry have have to give another reality check and a obvious lesson to learn
the constitution is "american"
the arrests were done in the netherlands. where the constitution does not apply


yep i loved the wild west days of 2009-2014 before a certain group(DCG) got their fingers deep into crypto.
those days wher bitcoin was treated more like a product. where trading it and swapping it was more of the rules of pokemon cards or product/merchant sales and auction houses. that allowed more freedom to doing things

yet the lobby group of big industry(DCG) lobbied for the legitimisation of bitcoin by declaring it a currency by governments.. and the negative effects of that action is now that bitcoin is a legitimate currency... currency laws now apply to crypto.

dont shoot the messenger. just learn from it

Again, the same can be said for cryptography, computers, networks, digital cash, everything; there will always be people who'll abuse it and break the law. Those who design the underlined technology should face no lawsuits or have their repositories removed, just because it makes it easier for criminals to get away with.

Mixers are no different, they protect your privacy, in the same way strong encryption for communication does. I don't understand why most see another thing.

making software is not a crime
but being involved with facilitating criminals, especially wilfully knowing, is criminal (aiding and abetting)
there is a fine line.. distinctiual difference. which then gets messy where only solution ends up to arrest, charge and then let the suspect defend himself in court to defend himself.. which in of itself is a headache too far for some to want to step into

....
anyway, moving the topic along..

this is not about defending fiat or elitists. this is fact of life stuff.. with things people should think about. using rational thought not conspiracy/anger

money, value, wealth has never been a protected right under privacy.
so knowing certain people use the word "privacy" actually end up looking suspicious when using privacy tools
(a hard notion for people to understand.. but its a fact of life)

shouting out you have a right to privacy in regards to money. is a losing game when it comes to courts, regulators, governments.

so think smart.. think:
"property rights" - a different name. but it has advantages
"Property rights give the owner or right holder the ability to do with the property what they choose. That includes holding on to it, selling or renting it out ..."

create tools that are not branded "privacy enhancing".. thus evade the regulations that oppose privacy.
and instead make "property rights" protection tools

that way not only can you get the same end result of protecting yourself, but you then have some legal standing to legally uphold your rights

..
think of how people can create NDA's and private contracts, etc, which even courts cant easily invade.
property rights have had a long history back thousands of years. much better protected right than the fantasy belief people have thinking they have modern economic privacy rights

by calling things by names known to be suspicious/illegal in regulation such as privacy enhancing/mixers. you are allowing them control and losing your control. by causing people that create and use these tools to be considered suspicious

be smart. think about the loop holes of regulation
..
much like UBER avoided calling their service a taxicab service. thus stepped around the regulations of taxicabs

so stop advertising or pushing everyone to use "privacy enhancing tools" which get people into regulatory trouble
instead create and advertise "property right protection" tools.
as a step forward in using the loopholes.

..
when bitcoin was legally declared a currency. circa2014, yes the positive was more recognition, but the negative was having currency laws applied to crypto. yep it was no longer thought of as property and instead as currency where different laws apply

so. take back and flip the jurisdictional control. to keep regulators out of certain things. redefine things back to the good old days of 2009-2014 where features of property ownership were the virtues and features of bitcoin

---

"mixers" like money mules are about laundering/shuffling money.
yes they are used to remove tracking. but their main purpose is to avoid economic tracking. something that economic laws dont perceive as a right.

so dont play into government/regulators games of doing things that they list as worthy of investigating
much like how the FATF and SEC do not regulate pokemon cards. because pokemon trading. or card shufflers are not described as privacy tools. even though what they do functionally is to swap ownership without requiring ID or tracking

playing into the jurisdictions of governments by defining a blockchain as:
crypto-currency: then allows an entry by governments to apply currency laws to it

however by starting to think of a blockchain/subnet(not the units/property inside a blockchain/subnet)as:
res nullius: (Open-access property is owned by nobody), and then describe the units inside a rus nullius blockchain as "private property" sets a blockchain and units of account .. under a different path outside the currency jurisdiction..

in short. think about bringing back the good old days of 2009-2014, before currency laws got involved

BTC was not considered a currency before 2014?  ???

Even though Satoshi himself called it electronic cash since day 1?

And despite the fact it reached $1000 ATH back in 2013?

regulatory defined it as currency
which allowed them to have the SEC regulate businesses that operate with btc
it kinda started around 2014 with the 'bitlicence' getting involved and started the regulatory financials systems of fiat to start getting their grubby hands on the businesses that operate at the edges of bitcoin.

they are also now trying to convert it to being a 'commodity' so that the CFTC can regulate businesses and services that operate with btc*

by knowing these things and then learning the regulations, you can then learn the loopholes to work around things

EG
SEC/FAFT have regulations where they list mixers as a suspicious tool
so the secret is STOP ADVERTISING MIXERS.

instead create a new tool which functions as a "property rights protection" tool... thus not applicable under their suspicious tool list

by continually using the terms/words/tool of what regulators deem should be restricted. you then allowing that feature/tool to become restricted

again much like how uber never called themselves a taxi company
or how facebook called itself a social media, instead of an advertising company

common sense says obviously uber is a taxi company and facebook is more of an advertising company. but by those companies avoiding the use of those words in describing their functions, the taxi/advertising regulations didnt impede those companies as much

..
*bitcoin because of the new locks(2017 feature) now allows bitcoin to be seen as a raw base item that can produce other things from it(sidechains, subnets, coloured coins, and many other things)
(like commodities where a raw material is used to create secondary products)
thus now due to all the sidechains and subnets. bitcoin is from a regulatory prospecting becoming defined as a commodity by which the CFTC can get their grubby hands around the edges.

---

there are 3 sides to it.
there are those that want secret 'cash like' system that is private property which no one should be able to confiscate or steal for any reason and the owner of the private property has full control of

there are the mainstreamers that want it to be a currency anyone can use including financial institutions that manage pension funds (which requires accountability and clean utility without criminal exposure going to far)

there are the other group that want to create new derivatives and subnets and new products backed by btc

the issue is i see the first group.. pandering to the second group by using the second groups terminology, thus losing the features the first group wanted. (hense i said stop using/calling things mixers to pander into having your control taken away, create property right protection tools, which are outside the remit of SEC/FATF)

the issue i see is when the second group. instead of just offering "exchanges" (currency laws) start to say and advertise they offer "futures options" they are then allowing the commodity laws to apply to those businesses.
(Commodity Futures Trading Commission | CFTC)

so if you learn what the regulations are. and then find out what is not in their lists.. you find the loop hole by which you can then make tools for, that are not regulated or required to be regulated

Just occurred to me right now actually, to my knowledge Switzerland has the strongest privacy laws (though even that has been chipped away with the weakening of banking secrecy laws over the past 2 decades) -- would the same privacy laws allow for unfettered development of mixers there, the way VPNs and email providers have been operating legally over there, or does Bitcoin and crypto's financial aspects exclude them I wonder?

each country has its own laws
thre is not really a big international financial law and financial "police"/taskforce

EG EU financial laws and US financial laws are separate
where EU exchanges follow EU laws and US exchanges follow US laws

since ~2014 a few exchanges moved away from the us and set up in south america to escape the grubby hands of having to comply with US laws.

but here is the easiest thing
because EU and US laws dont like businesses that call themselves mixers... simple solution.. stop calling them businesses mixers.
get smarter about how you define such tools. much like how uber escaped the US regulations of taxi cab's while still offering a service that does a function that taxicabs do

take facebook
everyone knows what facebook does.
but how they define themselves helps them control what rules apply to them
EG in america they delare themselves as a social media. to escape the advertising and financial regulations of facebooks advertising/financial features. and also defend themselves under "free speach" by saying they are a social media company

in ireland (no tax) they define themselves as a financial service

and in other countries they define themselves as a advertising company. in countries that have lax advertising restrictions

that way if america wanted to sue facebook for some advertising thing. they have to file that in the country thats defined as the advertising arm of facebook. where that jurisdiction has no/not many laws that facebook could be in breach of and thus cant really be found guilty

its why all the funds and profit sit in ireland so that america cant claim tax on the profits.

there is nothing stopping them from attacking bitcoin mixers, and the fact that they banned tornado cash github account shows how they are in control of everything, now people can't write and open source code without the fear of getting in trouble if the government decided to, I don't think I can trust using any mixers now, and attacking bitcoin mixers is most likely to happen.

The whole idea of Bitcoin is that you don't require any legal standing to uphold your rights.  If you think you need a court of law or a government to rule in your favour when it comes to anything, you've completely missed the point (as you so often do).  That's what we do in this space.  We build technologies that mean we don't rely on centralised entities for anything.  And we are building privacy tools whether you like it or not.  This isn't empty shouting, this is backed by action.  An enforcement of will enshrined in code.  Unstoppable and unrelenting.  Progressing with continual steps forward.  Often at a pace which exceeds the regulators' ability to keep up.  And none of your constant whiny nonsense will halt that progress.  

And, let's be honest, you're in absolutely no position to talk about a "losing game" when that's all you've been talking since 2016.  I mean, really.  Do you even listen to yourself?   :D



Try to pick an argument and stick with it, you self-contradicting loony.  You can't simultaneously argue that advertising something as a mixer will trigger the regulators to look at you whilst simultaneously arguing that regulators will be looking at LN when that isn't advertised as a mixer.  Which one is it?  It can't be both.



Ah, I see where you're going with this now.  It's all nudge-theory with you.  You're trying to convince everyone it's in their best interests to adopt your definitions of what Bitcoin is and what the "good old days" supposedly were.  Yeah, no one's falling for that.  It's not a case of people needing to avoid "playing into government/regulators games", it's actually a case of avoiding playing your stupid game, which would be to usurp Bitcoin and strip out as much freedom and privacy as you possibly could.  But that's never going to happen because people now recognise you for the totalitarian headcase you are.  Only fascists would accept your totally fucked up definitions of what Bitcoin is.  


franky1 hates freedom, hates privacy and is an enemy of Bitcoin.

Thats's right I too would say the same.

everyone knows doomad(and his pals) ass kisses the guys at DCG

yep see whos at the list of
https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c
chainanalysis, cambridge blockchain, civic, cognito, coinmetrics,Custos Media Technologies

https://dcg.co/portfolio/#e
Elliptic

https://dcg.co/portfolio/#n
Norbloc

https://dcg.co/portfolio/#s
Suade


also doomad knows that no matter what he buys before or after using a mixer.. using a mixers gets people put on a watchlist.

yet instead of arguing with DCG and regulators
he wants to point fingers at franky1 for pointing out and summarising the rules so that people are aware of what to watch out for

poor doomad on his pals want people to ignore the rules and just use the services they want..

funny part is i have not told anyone to use a service.. yet they have

---

its funny that the same dozen people came out in anger for me pointing out something everyone should actually know
so because i laugh at them fools and instead think people should know things outside of the groups ignorance,here it goes again:

oh and i made it colourful.maybe it will get people to realise what it is actually telling people and makes them read it

this is from the FINANCIAL ACTION TASKFORCE where i simply showed a few examples of what people should know and be aware of:

So you aren't going to respond to a single argument and instead just repeat the same thing you've said before?  What a surprise.   ::)

Let's have a look at your little crayon colourings, then.  The best you can come up with is that it looks "suspicious".  Okay, cool.  But you'd be surprised how quickly the definition of "suspicious" can change.  If I walked into a bank pre-covid with my face covered up, people would have deemed that suspicious and likely suspected that I was about to rob the place.  Now I can walk into a bank wearing a face covering and it's deemed perfectly acceptable.  So how about we don't resort to petty fear-mongering about how a particular group of people thinking we're doing something suspicious should supposedly make us less entitled to do it.  

Also, I don't think you understand what a "layering scheme" is within the context of financial crime.  Maybe look that up (https://www.dowjones.com/professional/risk/glossary/anti-money-laundering/layering/) before you continue cross-posting something that makes you look completely misinformed.  But no, you had to get triggered by the word "layer" (again) and assume the regulators were talking about the Lightning Network.  Poor delusional franky1 and his delicate sensibilities.  So fragile.  If anyone dares to utter a "bad word", he just goes off on a delusional rant about complete nonsense and then tells everyone he's just here to keep them informed and aware.   ::)

It would be funny if it wasn't so utterly pathetic and sad.  I know mental health services in the UK are under a lot of strain at the moment and maybe that's why you haven't received the help you so desperately need yet, but I hope you get some support soon.

I can just point out one flaw in the 'following all rules' strategy. It will lead to nowhere. We have two different entities with completely contradicting goals. Governments in its current form are completely self-serving and create/ ignore rules to favour their chosen groups, while Bitcoin is trying to introduce fair, not-bendable rules to everyone. It doesn’t make sense to follow more and more rules that are meant to make disfavoured groups lose and slowly try to break the fair game.

The only way to win a game that is designed to make you lose, is by not playing it. We should focus on ourselves instead and simply abandon any corruptible service there is, it doesn’t make sense to fight over the rules a clownshow entity with criminal records bigger than your local prison is trying to introduce. It just leads to separation again and will make us weaker. Let’s not fall for divide and rule between Bitcoiners, even if not all of us like each other and have different opinions.

Sooner or later the two will clash anyways, it doesn’t matter if we act like submissive bunnies and follow everything they tell us. You can try, but sooner or later you will come back to the realisation that it’s pointless. Anyone who was at the bottom of the ladder once and has seen the whole game from bottom to the top, knows that your actual abilities and how well you follow the rules doesn’t matter in this system. Once you’re a threat to the power/ resources of people above you, they will try to make you fail. It’s just some useless bs that determines positions in hierarchies. It doesn’t matter if we followed all rules perfectly and Bitcoin turned everyone into a saint, we’re threatening the monopoly over money. Our actions/ history won’t matter. They will keep throwing rocks at us and try to corrupt it into their favour. Sooner or later things will get more and more absurd, and we will have to decide if we keep playing this game or do what’s necessary to win. Getting distracted by hamster wheels will lead us nowhere.

its not about following the rules.. stop being naive like the ignorant group you have been recruited into

escape their mindset as it is dragging youdown to their level

one more time its not about following the rules.its about learning..its about researching.its about knowing the rules so that you can then find the loop holes and methods to AVOID the things the rules list

please escape following the crowd of people like doomad and blackhatcoiner, because you are sounding like them more each day


real people that want real privacy dont want to appear on a SAR...
so they look at what causes can get them put on an SAR
guess what the S stands for

im not the one making the rules.. im not defining things.
its a simple bit of research anyone can do

i am not the one making things up. its the financial task forces words found via a 20 second google search
if you cant even have the courage to do research,dont cry about it and dont point fingers at people that do research.
i just supplied the info which anyone can find via any search engine or directly from the regulators

there is no point questioning me.. because i am not the rule maker!!
if you want to cry about someone

GO TALK TO DCG who are the ones that helped make the rules when they lobbied government for legalisation and the ones that have services that comply with the rules

it is funny how you want to point the finger at "franky1" while you are trying to tell people to ignore the actual regulations and rules of services and regulators(not treat the highlight as a warning, not treat it as advice of what to avoid). and you are instead trying to tell people to go use the exact services that wil get people put on a SAR

yep and thats why i call you group of a dozen ignorant idiots, vile!