Bitcoin Forum

Opinion: Bitcoiners should build a trusted decentralized network to become more resilient against possible future crisis.



Problem: Fiat system is controlled corrupt people
Bartering is inconvenient. I’m a plumber and want to grill a beef steak. But the cow farmer does not need a plumber now. Money makes the marketplace more efficient. The plumber can fix a pipe for somebody else for cash and spend cash to buy his steak. He can even safe his money and buy the steak later. However, money printing erodes the purchasing power of fiat. Canceling bank accounts, so a protesting Canadian trucker can’t buy his breakfast, erodes the transaction value of fiat. This might become even worse with the introduction of CBDC, which could be programmed to be redeemed only for good that the state deems appropriate.

Bitcoin is low inflation and high censorship resistance
Bitcoin has predictable and low monetary inflation and has a high degree of censorship resistance overcoming the problems of fiat. However, Bitcoin is not widely accepted as a payment for goods and services. This requires you to exchange your fiat salary for Bitcoin to safe and to exchange your Bitcoin for fiat to spend.

nice: salary in BTC -> food
reality: salary in fait -> BTC -> fiat -> food

How regulation conquers Bitcoin to rob savers of their savings and reintroduce censorship
The exchange between BTC and fiat is controlled by the government, banks, payment processors and centralized exchanges. They censor people and transactions reintroducing censorship on the Bitcoin onramp and offramp. Due to KYC, your identity is linked to how many bitcoins your bought. People more powerful than you (government or criminals who hacked the exchange database) can threaten violence rob you of most or all your Bitcoin reintroducing the problem that powerful humans can rob the savings of powerless humans.

Trading Peer to peer offers some protection
The obvious solution is ditching centralized exchanges and replacing them with decentralized exchanges most prominent would be Bisq. Bisq is open source, runs over TOR and has very little centralized attack surface. I like Bisq a lot, but don’t want to trust entirely on Bisq.

Trading BTC over Bisq is no silver bullet.
1. Single communication route: Bisq runs over TOR. However, TOR can and is currently DDoS-attacked. Government can take measures against TOR or against internet traffic leaving the country.

2. Tainted coins: BTC has a transparent ledger. Everybody can check the history of each transaction. The government / banks / exchanges can then define “bad” transaction histories. If you send a Bitcoin transaction with a “bad” history to an exchange, your account gets frozen. US announced interacting with certain BTC addresses gets you published with several years of prison time. Government restrictions tend to grow. It is possible that the government tries to define more histories as “bad” e.g. coin joins being bad or coins bought on exchanges without KYC being bad. It is also possible that the government will try to extend the regulation to miners banning them form mining transactions with a bad history. The problem is, that the coin trades on Bisq can be singled out by coin analytics companies. The government can then make laws against people using Bisq or spending coins with a Bisq-history. Additionally, a small minority of coins sold on Bisq has a bad origin (Hack or Scam).

3. Flexibility: Let’s say you are protesting peacefully against your government without breaking any laws. This annoys politicians, who skip due process and just block your bank account. Now you can’t pay rent, can’t pay your utility bills and after cash gets replaced by CBDC you can’t even buy food. On Bisq you can sell BTC for a bank transfer or cash. You might not be able to pay some bills with cash.


Supplementing Bisq with long term trusted trading relationships builds resilience
Before you have problems every Bitcoiner builds up 5-10 trading relationships. As the years go on trust increases. This gives you additional options exchanging BTC<->goods/services.

1. Multiple communication routes: You will know each other’s mobile phone numbers, and email addresses making your communication more robust in case one communication method is not available.

2. Coins can’t be marked by coin analytics as tainted: Since you trust each other you don’t need custody wallets or time locked multi sig transactions, which would increase suspicion of Chainanalysis. Also you know the history of the coins of your trading counterparty. You don’t accidently by coins with bad history like in Bisq and safe time checking the history of the coins you bought.

3. Flexibility: If you and your trading counterparty trust each other, you have great flexibility. Pay BTC get voucher from your grocery shop. Pay BTC get grass fed beef send to you. Pay BTC get your utility bill paid. Pay BTC get a gold coin send to you. With trust you have unlimited options. You also build up goodwill, if you run into troubles the other person will spend more time to amend his payment method to help you out.


Do you agree with me?
Did I overlook something?
Do you live in Germany or within EU/SEPA and want do build up a network and sell me some BTC against EUR long term?

a. In a way I agree with you but think you should not advertise a p2p platform because that's what it seems you're doing right now! ... your discussion is actually helpful and I will ADD that for a trader to have little worries when trading for whatever purpose hisor her Bitcoin considering the government regulations on reaching a compromise between BTC and fiat and consumer goods(e.gCBDC) and already existing trading platforms, he or she should be aware of these so to be on a safer side:
Diversify Trading Platforms: Instead of relying solely on P2P platforms, consider using a combination of centralized exchanges and reputable P2P platforms. Centralized exchanges offer liquidity and a wide range of trading options, while P2P platforms provide privacy and direct peer-to-peer transactions. Diversifying platforms can help mitigate the risks associated with deficiencies in a single platform.

*Stay Informed:Stay updated with the latest news and developments related to CBDCs, as they may impact the trading landscape. Being aware of any regulatory changes or potential shifts in the market will allow you to adapt your trading strategies accordingly. I recommend this always 👌

Explore Decentralized Exchanges (DEX):DEX platforms operate on blockchain technology, allowing users to trade bitcoin and other digital currencies directly without the need for intermediaries. Consider exploring DEX platforms that offer a high level of security, transparency, and user control over funds.

Secure wallet usage: Regardless of the trading platforms you choose, prioritize the security of your Bitcoin holdings. Use secure hardware wallets or cold storage solutions to protect your funds from potential hacking or theft.

Engage in Trusted Networks: Joining trusted communities or networks of Bitcoin traders can provide opportunities for secure, peer-to-peer trading. Participating in forums, social media groups, or local meetups can help you connect with reputable traders and reduce the risks associated with trading on unfamiliar platforms.(Just like this platform...so congratulations you're in the right place 😁)
Remember, trading Bitcoin involves inherent risks, and no direct method can completely eliminate all potential issues. It's crucial to conduct thorough research, exercise caution, and make informed decisions based on your risk tolerance and trading goals.

b. You did overlook the fact that no although no system can be completely trusted, you can reduce risk by taking diverse precautions

c. No I'm not in Germany!

Do you think that CBDC will eradicate Paper Money? I don't think so and even if it's going to happen it will be very slow because we have people that don't want to use digital payment still, it's going to be a matter of choice, choose what suits your convenience.

We can't do without the Banks, to spend Bitcoin in the real world you need to convert into Fiat and that money is heading into your Bank account anyway, what we want to prevent is cleaning every traces of Bitcoin money into our Bank accounts, that's why I personally use P2P trades.

The exchange between Bitcoin into Fiat is controlled by YOU, not the government or the Banks, no one forces you to sign up on a centralized exchange and pass their KYC, everyone knows what KYC requirements means when asked.

A real P2P platform is one step ahead of Banks, government and other centralized puppet companies, it's left for you to make your choice wisely.

About the Tainted Coins, it can still be avoided, the problem with privacy and anonymity in crypto space starts with a user, who look for centralized platforms themselves and passed their KYC, you want to stay out of sight? Don't ever pass KYc and stay away from every God damn centralized exchanges.

In a situation when a government asserts total control over the payment systems, P2P may not be a solution. You could still do it, sure, but you could be facing investigation for suspicious activities if you keep sending/receiving money from unaffiliated strangers.
The only true way to prevent censorship of financial transaction is to not get corrupt governments get into power, and create serious political resistance when there are signals of government overreaching their powers.

That's the problem I have with many bitcoiners. They're way too tolerant of any attacks on cash payment, or sometimes even cheering for them hoping that "It's all good because bitcoin will replace cash". That's a silly approach. If the rulers won't tolerate cash because they can't control it, then they will introduce a crackdown on Bitcoin, it's just a matter of time.


It seems inevitable to be honest even just due to impracticality of paper cash and high processing costs. You don't even need CBDC for that, cash use is already on steep decline. Masses will always go with the easiest and most comfortable solutions, and digital payments are far easier than handling cash. At very best we could hope for cash to function as a niche way of payment. There are countries like Slovakia who actually added right to cash payments to their constitution. And to me being able to use it (even if 99% of the population don't) is good enough.

The bank notes are going to disappear in a few months to a year after CBDC. Just think people are forced to use CBDC because they can't buy any stuff from grocery stores if you're not using CBDC. The government will make it also available to all, probably even giving phones to the elderly so they can receive stimulus packages thru CBDC.

Easier to distribute stimi to people that has CBDC account on their phones. You'll see the benefit so they'd really going to sign up for it.

A beautiful write up which is good on paper only but does not fit in reality. Hope you know that running a p2p platform still requires a third party who is trusted to come in between the trade otherwise you will be sorry for not taking precaution.

A p2p market is a world where you have no knowledge who you are trading with because everyone is anonymous so in the event that your transaction does not go as expected without a third party (whom can also pose as a serious danger because you don't know anything about him/her or whom) you should not go crying on social media looking for who will help because your funds will be gone without a trace.
If you don't want government control of any form, then go find an island to leave where you will be totally out of civilization.

This is not true, true p2p eliminates an intermediary or third party, if there is a third party it is no longer peer to peer, but peer to intermediary, and intermediary to the other peer.
Trade in person with people you know and have probably traded with in the past. If you don't want to use that form, then choose a p2p exchange like Bisq, the trading funds would always remain in your custody through a multi-sig set up, so there is unlikely to be dispute, but if there is, Bisq arbitration would help to settle the dispute.

You can directly use bitcoin to buy food at stores accept it.

However mostly you will have to cash it out to fiat and use fiat to buy food to eat. It means you likely always need to have cash in your pocket so if you receive your salary in fiat currency, don't use all of it to buy bitcoin. Because later you will have to sell your bitcoin to get fiat currency.

If you do fiat -> bitcoin -> fiat, you will have to make two trades and if you don't want to store your bitcoin in online accounts, you have to do two on chain transactions for withdrawal after you buy it and deposit when you want to sell it for cash.

Trading fees from two trades, transactions fees from two on-chain transactions will consume a lot of satoshi. Reserve some cash to use and don't make on-chain transactions or trades when it is unnecessary and if you can plan to avoid it.

Yeah, @OP is exaggerated the story where it can be easily just to invest 90% in Bitcoin and use 10% for monthly spending.

If you talk about become a Bitcoin maximalist by maximizing the decentralization and privacy advantages in Bitcoin, you're ruin the decentralization if you start to trust someone because Bitcoin space has a idiom "don't trust, verify". There's no way to verify someone mind, activity etc, even you have traded 100 times with them, there's always a chance one of them might turn become a criminal and back stabbed you.

Yes, this is similar to what I am about to say, there will always be a middleman for a peer-to-peer transaction to become successful, lack of a middleman is what causes scams on p2p networks, and there are few platforms that use Bots as the middleman and many people lost money this way, this is why I like Binance peer 2 peer because they prevent scam or someone cheating the other, I know it's not a decentralized exchange but I am willing to keep a clean record online so that I won't need to start evading KYC requirements, I don't care much about privacy and other, there is no reason for me to hide.

P2P on Binance is not really a peer-to-peer transaction because a middleman is involved. But I agree with what you said, P2P transactions are really too risky without an intermediary to guarantee us. I don't want to lose my privacy either, but between losing my privacy or the safety of my property, I would also choose safety first. Making money today is extremely difficult, and we should protect it rather than take privacy too seriously, but there are many risks to face. I really have no problem using centralized exchanges as long as we never use them to store assets for long periods.

I agree with you that p2p on Binance isn't 100% p2p because if anything goes wrong then there is always a middleman who is involved the solve the issue. I remember the time when my transaction was sent by a trader whom I traded with but wasn't received in my account, and then we appealed the system and it took 4 days for my transaction to be deposited into my account.  I received my transaction after 4 days and we both agreed that the issue was resolved. I know that there is an issue of privacy on Binance, but still without their interference it would be difficult to solve the issue.

I would also chose safety of my money over privacy because if my assets and my money is safe, and for that I need to do my KYC, then I wont hesitate with the thing. However, if there was such a platform on a decentralized exchange then I would definitely go with that, but currently the only safe options are those exchanges that require KYC and they have their name in the crypto-world.

Many people always think that they do not need government regulation and take away their freedom, but when they are scammed by someone, they always look to the law for help. That is really too funny and despicable.

P2P is really a transaction method that can guarantee our privacy, but it is really too dangerous and too risky, I also can't trust using P2P exchange platforms without a middleman.

That's cause people don't appreciate what they don't normally use for their daily lives so that's bound to happen. It's not really a good assumption though, that anarchy is going to be a bad thing for more people, don't the people in Slab City in California live in peace even though they're the closest to a lawlessness? I can understand the scare of using P2P but when the system in place is working properly and ensures the safety of both parties, it's safe to assume that using P2P for transactions is relatively safe. Safety and risk is relative to how competent the system is in my opinion.

You've made an interesting idea in advocating for long-term trusted trading connections, however this runs opposed to the core spirit of what Bitcoin represents: decentralisation. I think it's a step backwards to advocate for a trust-based system because that means going towards a more centralised structure. We might as well be asked to put our faith in the government and huge banks all over again.

You're right, there are problems with Bisq. Each and every one of them does. However, these problems can be fixed. Bitcoiners, rather than reverting to more traditional trust-based relationships, ought to concentrate on enhancing and perfecting these decentralised alternatives.

Also, it's risky to discount the importance of regulated markets altogether. Yes, they have their own issues, but they supply Bitcoin with the services and liquidity it needs to thrive in the current economic context. Throwing them out entirely would be like trying to save the world by drowning it in a bathtub full of dirty water.

When did losing control over your funds and giving it to a third party become safer that being in control of your trading funds throughout the trade. This thread shows that many people don't know how p2p exchanges work and it would save everyone's time if they learn how it works. A multi-sig set up ensures that the trade happens without any party being scammed, it is not dangerous; you just have to know what you are doing and choose an irreversible payment option if you are the seller.

It is difficult for us to get rid of cash at the present time, so Bitcoin does not present itself as an alternative to cash, but rather another option for those who want not to trust central systems or banks, and it is understandable if you are in a country under sanctions or your wealth has been eroded by inflation. The influence of Bitcoin will increase, and you will have multiple spending options if the demand for it increases.

Treating money in categories and that this is clean money, colored money, and dirty money is a mistake. Money is money, otherwise it would have been the first to destroy the money that is confiscated from the drug trade.

It is true that we have limited options for those who want to buy and sell bitcoin without KYC, but there will always be an option or alternative such as XMR, and the centralized options will become better regulated.

You could be right, but I don't think it'll be that quick. Few months to a year would be a very short notice. But I don't see cash getting completely replaced until we have CBDC, or other solutions that are available to everyone (including homeless etc). Currently banks can deny you a service even without stating any reason, so potentially some people would be left out without any means to participate in the system.


What's widely described as P2P online crypto transactions (e.g. exchanging btc for fiat) would still require a 3rd party fiat processor.
The only "true" P2P transaction would be exchanging btc for physical cash, but that won't be possible if/when cash goes away.

P2P is great when there is a trusted person, either Person1  or Person2 else it's not going to save your life. I use Binance's P2P system and it's pretty much great.
They have integrated some important metrics like how much time user takes to release the crypto or what's their trust rating recently.

Before that, I used to do P2P on localbitcoins. Good old days.

Is there anything to create p2p again because p2p is already existing in the blockchain what you have to do is just a trust. And this trust must be given to someone within your area region and more likely your community because if you just merely trust someone in another country and send the coins to the person without receiving your money and the person run away with the coin then your coins will be gone.
That is why exchange p2p is also good because you have to receive the money before you release the coins. And every country has their p2p methods to do except the international exchange platforms which perform general per to per. So creating separate p2p for transactions might not necessary again because there are already existing ones.

The P2P is the base for the Fiat to crypto conversion,mostly the Usdt was brought all over the world by the P2P in most of the trusted exchanges.They charges few dollars as the fee from the buyers to their Service.This P2P is act like the escrow of the deal and product from the loss by doing online deal to the stranger in other part of the world.If you do the deal online without P2P or escrow,you will see the real face of the people.They will try to scam at the other end.

Even though the blockchain offers a secure mechanism for peer-to-peer transactions, you should always take precautions when dealing with strangers or people outside your circle of trust.  Mutual trust is a crucial element when carrying out p2p transactions, regardless of the platform used.

Although in reality this concept could be valid if you are trading something of value while for example im BitTorrent this makes less sense.

Here are my two cents.

The only reason Tor is the preferred network is due to how many people are using it.  The more Tor users there are, the tougher it becomes to track every body.  It works exactly like Tor Bridges.  You can use Bridges to avoid getting caught for using Tor.  It works by camouflaging your network so the ISP never knows you are using Tor.  This comes with its own set of issues as follows,

In case your country decides to fully crack down on every thing that involves Anonymity and Privacy, you are able to avoid their new rules by using a Bridge.

Consequence.  The more people use Bridges, the higher chances are for other Governments to start cracking down on Tor too.  Following the logic of less people using Tor makes it more abnormal to want to use it.

If we had a better idea than Tor.  I believe we would immediately adopt it.  We had Open Bazaar that attempted a better Peer to Peer way of doing things.  But it failed as far as I know.  I do not even know if it exists any more at all.

Building a set of relationships through trust is a solution.  But only temporary I would argue.  Bitcoin is here to avoid the issues trust involves.  If we consider privacy, you can not have many ways of communication with the other Peer.  You are afraid of being under a DDoS attack from your Government.  How do you trust communication with your other Peer through E-mail or Phone?

You can use Telegram.  But even that is not Open Source, so you are left with Signal and maybe encrypted SMS communication.

The Tainting issues you mentioned are invalid.  There are no Tainted Coins.  Are you going to buy Bitcoin Peer to Peer and verify the history of your other Peer by using Blockchain Analysis?  Then there is no point in all this effort.  Simply go to Binance and buy a 'clean' KYC Bitcoin if you care so much.

I wish flexibility was as easy as you wrote.  Good luck finding some body who would give you grass fed beef for your Bitcoin.  Or who would give you a local voucher for it.  If you are afraid of your Government tracking every thing you are doing.  I would be afraid of working with just ONE person for every thing I do.  What if that person is sent exactly by the Government to trace how Peer to Peer only Bitcoin users are using their Coins.

In theory.  All you said sounds amazing.  In real life however.  Things are different and not as easy as you make them sound.

in every aspect of business, there's always a scammer so yeah, each user should be very careful in dealing with strangers over the net. this is why i believe the p2p in binance got a good following because binance itself is a reputable platform. so they know that if somebody screwed them, binance will take action. they also have fail safe in place, like you can file a complaint if someone didn't pay you. you can also check the number of orders completed. you will have idea how they are doing their business.

I think it's hard to go through the P2P route. I've already tried finding buyers to sell my BTC for local fiat currency and everything I found was a local service which buys cheap and sell high. So they never follow the currently quotation of BTC price, as they have to purchase it cheaper to have some profit by selling above the margin.

Anyway, I like the service and I always use them, since it's done P2P, without the need of signing up on an exchange platform and agreeing with several terms and conditions. It's really convenient, although I would like to find someone to deal with who would follow the official quotation of BTC price on Google.

People are so used to exchanges that they don't care about P2P transactions. And the few who care don't find partners to deal with.

I think you're grossly underestimating the potential of modern technology and the synergy of many people's efforts. There are certainly dangers associated with using Tor, but these are to be expected on the road to technical progress. In addition, doesn't Bitcoin itself operate on the notion of evolution? While privacy is a serious issue, it is not insurmountable. Decentralised VPNs and the development of more secure cryptographic methods bode well for the future. These innovations arent without flaws, but they show promise for the future.

Let us not forget that the trust crisis that gave rise to Bitcoin was itself the result of a lack of trust. While Bitcoin does its best to avoid the pitfalls of trust, it does not do away with it entirely. The reliance on a single entity is replaced by faith in the decentralised network's stability. Its a common misconception that the Tainted Coins are real. Bitcoin's fungibility is one of its greatest strengths. Bitcoins are interchangeable, and its pointless to try to trace their origins.

Then you need to file a report against this site https://www.chainalysis.com/ because their main service are tracking the coins' origins in order to combat against of money laundering. They are cooperating with centralized exchanges too, so if you use a centralized exchanges to trade your coins, you has a chance being tracked by them.

It's not mean I support chainalysis, but you're wrong if the centralized entities aren't consider about tainted coins.

Whether or not coins are actually "tainted" largely depends on the laws in each jurisdiction, i.e. how they approach a situation where say a merchant gets paid with stolen money (be it bitcoins or physical cash), will such money be confiscated or will it be seen as legitimately earned?
Of course it gets trickier with P2P exchange, and I think it'd usually be approached on case-by-case basis, but in countries like the US, there would be a big chance of them getting seized, because the US loves seizing stuff (see the Civil Forfeiture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States) laws)

P2P is one of the oldest dealing ways even before it was implemented in the crypto industry. I strongly support it and specially without kyc in the crypto sector as that sector was found to spread anonymity and decentralization!

How can you think that Binance is the best p2p?  You answered your question yourself, if binance will take action it is because they have network centralization which should never happen on a pure p2p.  Usually the nodes are equal and no one can have control over them, p2p does not always mean cheating but obviously you have to make your own assessments.

How Binance is p2p? Do they have some service that exclude themselves from the equation? I can't see how and why would they do something like that. But if this is the case, please explain to me how do that service runs! I deleted my account from there some time ago, so I can't know how it works. But I would like to know if it is trye p2p!

P2P is not an alternative for me because I personally have experienced losses when doing P2P transactions. without intermediaries
So after that incident I had more transactions in the exchange even though I did KYC but my security was guaranteed

How did that happened? I mean, wasn't that p2p in person? If that is the case, well, that's fucked up. We never know who's at the other side and we can't see faces, listen voices, etc! I'm sorry for yuor loss but p2p, in presence, is probably one of the best ways of buying Bitcoin!

Everything is at risk, although P2P ensures our privacy, the risk is that we can also lose our assets if we deal with the wrong person. Besides, trading through exchanges will make us lose our privacy, but it is safer to have an intermediary involved to protect our interests. Both have their pros and cons, and it's up to each of us to choose the method that's right for us. For trading from bitcoin to fiat and vice versa, I still prefer to use centralized exchanges rather than using pure P2P.

In my experience, p2p helps me a lot in terms of cash-in and cash out using Binance. And I don't see anything wrong with that, even if others say that there is a risk as long as you know how to be careful, I think it's fine. As long as you know how to look for legit middlemen or merchants, it's okay. And I've been experiencing this for several months without any problems.

We all expect the growth and improvement of decentralized exchanges, but I am not overly optimistic about them. It's not that I don't trust them, but centralized exchanges have been around for a long time, and I don't see why they can't create a good platform that can compete directly with centralized exchanges until now. Decentralized exchanges have a lot of inadequacies and limitations, so their use is really an obstacle for many people. I would also use decentralized exchanges if they can provide the same services as centralized exchanges are providing us.

Peer to peer system works if there's an escrow system in place to ensure that both parties play nicely and fulfill their part of the trade. That's what CEX that offers P2P service today do it and it works even though it has some downsides like:
- Support can release your crypto without your express permission.
- Support has no way of confirming if you've received payment or not in the case of an appeal.

I used Localbitcoins a lot innthe early days as well and the service is not so different from the P2P services offered by binance and the likes.

---

I wonder if we'll ever get a truly decentralized peer to peer on/off ramp service that is governed by only the code and no intermediary. The bounds of technology is continually being pushed with it passing day. It might not be long now.

Many have the opinion that P2P trading requires a trusted middleman.


I agree with you. With the time locked mulit signature setup on Bisq no 3rd party is required in 99% of trades. If buyer and seller agree, they can close the trade without a 3rd party. If the buyer does not pay or there is other disagreement, a 3rd person from Bisq will take a look at the transaction. After the time lock runs out he can transfer the funds.


My idea in advocating for long-term trusted trading connections is very decentralized. I'm not talking about 100mn people trusting in 5 companies. I'm talking about 100mn people trusting in 10 different humans each. So everybody has 10 "friends". He trades with his 10 "friends". But everybody has 10 different friends.

Bisq is the most decentralized trading platform out there. It does not take custody of your funds, the software runs P2P and Bisq is organised as a DAO not a company.
However Bisq is one software, with one line of communication (TOR), with a couple of known developers, with a unique on chain footprint, open to everybody.

Nuking Bisq would destroy the trading ability of thousands. A decentralized trading network of 10 "friends" each is more difficult to destroy or to spy at.

Do you then mean that Binance p2p feature is not really a what it is but a peer to intermediary? This is a bit confusing. Care to explain further?

Can you mentioned another p2p exchange or rather does a platform like Remitano fall under this category? I have used it several times and whenever I encounter any issues, their customer agent are always on ground to resolve it.

Money has three functions: medium of exchange, unit of account, and store of value. So at the moment, bitcoin is almost impossible to use as a medium of exchange because each transaction takes time, costs electricity, and costs quite a lot. Bitcoin must not be a unit of account because the price fluctuates; only the function of storing value is left, so now almost everyone, including the supporters, considers cryptocurrencies to be an asset. property, not real money. So buying and selling in the market requires KYC, which is against the nature of bitcoin, but at the moment it can also be the best way to secure your interests.

Yes. When you use Binance p2p, you are not trading directly with the other peer, Binance is the third party or intermediary in the trade. P2p means directly from one peer to another and what ensures the safety of the traders isn't a third party but mostly a multi-sig set up, in which both parties will sign the transaction to release coins to the seller if everything goes smooth.
I have not used remitano, but it is a centralized exchange. For p2p exchanges go to: https://kycnot.me/

Obviously, P2P trading is a quick and convenient option for investors. However, it is also a double-edged sword, leaving unpredictable consequences for investors if they do not know how to protect themselves in the market. Underestimating the security process and protecting yourself is, in a way, abetting scams that can take place in the market. That is also why KYC is always a problem when the exchange can reveal the personal information of users at any time. So having money left on the exchange for a long time is not a good problem.

Not really sure what you're talking about, but most of people will agree if P2P trading is more slower and not convenient for investors. If P2P is more quick and convenient, most people already prefer to use P2P than CEX.

I would say CEX don't have any intention to reveal their customers' KYC because there's no point for them for doing it. But the problem is about their vulnerability and the hacker can get all personal information that have been submitted.

p2p (peer to peer) is very safe way to exchange your money, i am using binance and kucoin p2p feature, mostly i using binance it's convenient,
but the problem is still i'm not safe, because government can trace transaction history, in p2p i have to used a mobile number which is used as my payment receiving address.

That's not even a P2P when the exchange is still become the third party which has a control between the sender and receipt. If you think it's not safe since you're required to submit personal information to them, you need to use no KYC P2P or DEX. Currently Agoradesk, Robosats, and Bisq are the best choices.

Remember, you still need to transfer the coins into your non custodial wallet, don't hold your coins in P2P or DEX for long time.

Back in the past when there were no options like this, we had trouble using our local exchanges because they ask for some high percentage transaction fees when we want to convert out crypto to fiat. too bad that we were taken advantage of in that stage of our crypto journey and we lose lots of money because of that. thankfully we have lots of P2P options nowadays in some different trusted exchanges where we could trade our bitcoins safely with different rates and also convenience in terms of converting it to fiat.

I have also never heard anyone say that P2P is faster and more convenient than centralized exchanges.

As a rule, they will never reveal the identity of their customers because it is not beneficial and seriously affects their business. But what many users fear is that their privacy could very well be controlled by the government through centralized exchanges. Once the government requires exchanges to provide users' identities, they cannot fight the government. As news I saw recently, the US government is asking the Kraken exchange to provide investors' data to tax them. It really is a blatant attack on user privacy.

If you don't want to classify a trade as P2P whenever any 3rd party is involved, then you'd be left only with crypto/physical cash transactions. When you want to wire fiat, you'd have to use third-party bank or payment processor services.
A more sensible approach is to assess the nature of the involvement of the 3rd party. In the case of Binance, I'd call it a semi-P2P. If they only provided a platform to connect buyers with sellers, then I wouldn't have a problem in calling it a peer-to-peer platform, but since they also hold crypto in escrow, charge fees and resolve disputes (when needed) then it's indeed not a full P2P.

I agree, P2P on Binance is not strictly a peer-to-peer transaction, you are right to call it semi-P2P because of third party interference. If the transaction is in dispute, the assets of both parties will be locked immediately.

But I have a question, does P2P on decentralized exchanges really guarantee our privacy? I mean, we also need to provide a bank account name and number, or we still use an e-wallet like advcash centralized wallet during the transaction. So I think our privacy is not guaranteed if the buyer and seller with us is a government employee pretending to be.

I don't think it should be called semi-P2P it would be more fit if we call it centralized P2P because Binance act as escrow and it requires KYC when using their service unlike other decentralized P2P exchange that does not need KYC like Bisq but take note Bisq also escrow sellers funds they act the same as Binance but without KYC anytime both parties can dispute a transaction.

P2P on Binance is fake P2P hahaha. It's centralized 100%. All of your funds on Binance, even on P2P are being controlled by Binance. Once you deposit any funds in your Binance account, you already lost authority over your funds, especially Bitcoin.
For some people these centralized exchanges' P2P are easy way convert your Bitcoin to fiat or vice versa.

I didn’t think centralized exchanges are more convenient overall.
Centralized exchanges start convenient and become inconvenient later on. P2P requires a higher initial effort, but becomes more convenient later on.

Centralized exchanges let you sign up easily, then force KYC on you, later ask you to verify your source of funds, Bincance hat 3 upload spaces for source of funds, but I had 5 document, had to wait 5 days until documents were reviewed, Binance then refused me without giving me a reason asking me to reapply, I reapplied, refused again. All of this while sometimes holding your funds hostage.
If you want to make your taxes you are limited to exporting 3 month of transaction history. You can only load 3 transaction histories a day.
Trouble over trouble.

P2P has a higher initial effort required, but then the effort is lower especially if you use the same counter parties again and again.

On the topic of Binance P2P, it is not real P2P if Binance is not involved.

I believe this will depend on your region, as KYC verification requirements might differ depending on what your region's regulatory bodies approve for the exchange to use. Because I have used Binance so many times and I have passed the KYC back then in 2019 and have also recently helped someone file KYC and submit all required documents, I have never come across this request for sources of fund or tax information of any kind. So either the issue you are having is from what's required from your regulatory body, as I believe they are working with some bodies, or the amount in your account might be what triggers this.


What do you mean by this? Binance is a platform that has a P2P option, and their only involvement in the P2P transaction is to settle disputes, take their fee if applicable, and store trade history. If the trade is successful, they release the coin to the buyer, and the trade is closed.

P2P on the sense that you would be making out transactions but its not totally p2p since BInance is on between transactions even though there were no fees involved but still its true that you do lost authority of your
coins since you've been using up this platform on which it would really be that normal that they are still the ones who get hold of with those coins unless if those are converted to fiat and been transferred on your own personal bank account or wallet then it would be considered different. Real p2p is on that face to face transactions which we know that it might that totally decentralized but somewhat risky.
We are really that putting up ourselves on such harm considering  that we are talking about money on here on which it would really be just that normal that you would be putting up your self on something risky
because tendency on getting robbed or abducted specially if the amounts is already that high.

Binance P2P is a P2P with a middle man, it's just like the binance is the escrow where it benefits the both side buyers or sellers to prevent scam. I utilize these feature in the Binance most of the time when I'm going to withdraw because you don't have to pay for fee. And just like what you've said, Binance is centralized, so the Binance can control your account if they wanted. It's always better to use DEX than CEX in terms of security but with efficiency, I prefer Binance.

How does it fake? You can talk directly to the sellers or buyers they just act as an escrow. Isn't it just a centralized P2P?

And why would you lose authority with your account? You can anytime transfer or withdraw your funds out from Binance unless you are not KYC verified.
Binance before does not have KYC they are just forced to do it due to SEC legal requirements about Anti-Money Laundering (AML).

Binance is a centralized exchange, and all the services they provide will also be centralized. But that doesn't mean they are providing fake services, or they are taking our money, or we have no right to our property...All of this is just baseless slander.
Binance is going against the concepts that bitcoin created, they make things more centralized, but there is no denying that they are playing a huge role in the crypto industry. Honestly, I know that using centralized exchanges takes away privacy, but I still feel safer using their P2P than P2P decentralized exchanges.

Just take in mind that is the main purpose of Bitcoin. A peer to peer transaction. There wasn't suppose to be central management. It just happened that there are people who needs extra help accessing it that why centralized exchange such as binance and bybit who take advantage of that opportunity. Well yes definitely, it will require more effort and time because it's from anonymous user to another anonymous user. The same reason why many people are getting scammed.

Bitcoin has opened a lot of opportunities and not just with the centralized exchanges but to everyone. Thus, there's the different way of trading through it. P2P, DEX, CEX and what more?
That's mostly all of it and corporations will always be there to take advantage of everything. But it is us that should consider other ways of doing transactions but in P2P, it needs more attention as people have became comfortable with cex transactions.

I do not know if I understood your words well, but I want to remind you that bitcoin differs from money in what we know it, and offers a set of advantages that go beyond those offered by money. The most important feature is that Bitcoin is a payment system as well as a store of value in itself.
Money, as we know it, cannot be effective unless we create payment systems such as banks and systems such as Paypal and Swift for it. And for these advantages, it can be said that fiat money cannot beat bitcoin in any comparison, even those that bitcoin haters rely on, that it is used for suspicious activities, while statistics indicate that fiat money is much greater than bitcoin and crypto in general.

This definition should be taken with a grain of salt as hardly anything would meet those requirements. Especially with inflation in some developed countries still being close to two digits.


What do you mean by "almost impossible"? Sure, you could argue that there are much cheaper and faster mediums of exchange but this doesn't mean Bitcoin can't be used as such. It is being transacted all the time, you yourself probably get paid with btc from the signature campaign you're participating in. So I don't understand why would you think it's impossible.

I'm not the only one using Binance, and I believe most people are using it for certain purposes. So far, I have never had a problem with Binance. Why don't you wonder, out of millions of accounts, no one has a problem while you are having issues with Binance and complaining about their service? Are they having a problem, or is the problem yours? If you can use P2P conveniently and without any hassle, then that's fine for you. But for me, I find it safer to use P2P of exchanges.

Yes, I agree with you and some people here, P2P of exchanges is not a pure P2P.

To be honest, i don't know any other p2p platforms besides exchanges (binance especially) that is safe enough to transact comfortably imo.
Just like you, i have also been using binance p2p for a long time now and i have never encounter any problem, my assumption with such complaints is probably they don't even have an account with binance but just want to discredit them out of personal beef. i use the binance p2p very frequently and i found it very convenient and secured to a certain degree.

I always make sure to save some of my money in Bitcoin, though I don't put much of it, because I always need a lot of cash/fiat for my business and also some other day to day expenses I may encounter. But no matter what, I never miss to save some of my money elsewhere, which is Bitcoin, because I understand how important this is.

Most of the people who are spreading negative news about centralized exchanges are bitcoin maximalists. They have their reasons because centralized exchanges are going against what bitcoin created, which is decentralized and peer-to-peer trading. But to be fair, P2P has its risks, and many people are risk averse, and they choose centralized exchanges as an option. I'm not advocating for Binance or CEXs, but besides needing to provide our identities, most things go smoothly when we use P2P powered by CEXs. Depending on the choice of each person, we use the service that is most suitable for us.

Exactly. The most common misconception that people have when it comes to CBDC is that it will effectively replace paper money which it won't, cause this will effectively bar those who are off the grid and those who do not have internet capabilities from ever participating in the economy. Plus it doesn't make sense to counteract paper money with digital money when they could work hand in hand anyway. It's also worth noting that while it's up to you to pass KYC requirements just so you can trade and use the platform effectively, the aggressive approach that some CEXs employ just so they can make people verify is a little exploittative, and them being one of the biggest gateways into cryptocurrency makes the industry a little less democratized if you'll ask me.

I dare bet with you, many people are wandering the social networking platforms to slander the exchange, but behind that, they still quietly use them. Because no matter how badly we talk about it, it is undeniable that centralized exchanges are the most liquid and fastest, so people will go there instead of decentralized platforms. There will be very few people who don't use centralized exchanges and primarily those who uphold the importance of privacy. But as we can easily see, most people enter the market for profit and not to protect privacy.

CBDCs aim to coexist and offer options, not to replace real cash. When technology is used to exclude rather than include, cognitive dissonance may occur.

I acknowledge that some CEXs enforce KYC aggressively. Despite their need to follow regulations, the process shouldn't be exploitative or alienating. We should work together to promote participation and compliance. User verification can be efficient, respectful, and inclusive, I hope.

I still believe CBDC will replace and completely eliminate cash, but that won't happen anytime soon, the government may take a long time to do so.
KYC will really make us lose our privacy, I also do not like it but if viewed positively, it is also a way for governments to manage their citizens. Because not everyone uses bitcoin or money for good purposes, many criminals are using bitcoin or money for evil purposes to sabotage our society. So the government has reason to force us to enforce KYC and fully comply with regulations.

That's just a wishful thinking. There's a big push for getting rid of paper cash and no one is even hiding it. In most European countries using of cash is already restricted including max limits for cash purchases, that they keep lowering (plus they're getting effectively decreased by inflation alone).
There's no really a need for CBDC if it was meant to function only as one of the payment options.
From any government's point of view, issuing and managing cash is very inconvenient and creates opportunities for people to under-report their earnings (and pay less taxes as a result), is often used in criminal activities, and posses an inherent risk of it getting counterfeit.
The logic that the cash will have to be around because poor people use it is flawed. It'd probably be easier and cheaper for the government to issue free payment devices to those who need them (similar to "Obama phones" programme) than to keep cash in existence.

You have done an extraordinary job and if at this point you already know how important it is to save money into Bitcoin, you may be very profitable when you already have more Bitcoin even though it is the result of the hard work you have put aside so far. Fiat money is money that is still needed by many people, including business people, so it is a very common thing in life. Especially for business people like you who really have to always rotate money in order to get profits on a daily basis.