Bitcoin Forum

https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-mining-tax-united-states-budget

United States President Joe Biden has revived the idea of a 30% tax on electricity used by crypto miners in his budget proposal for 2025.

Lets just admit it. Biden is never going to try and stop taxing people involved in bitcoin.  :o Anyone that uses bitcoin here in the usa is directly accountable to the IRS even more than someone that owns a room full of firearms. enough said.

To be more accurate with the proposal. At least they still have a lot time to prepare, so they could find a safe country that has a cheap electricity cost https://www.cable.co.uk/energy/worldwide-pricing/


Biden must read this project to know the reality instead of falsely accuse Bitcoin for using a lot energy and causing climate change https://bitcoincleanup.com/

I'm starting to like Trump more and more. Although he is a Republican.  :D

Good luck, America! God help us all.

due to how asic farms do deals with power companies. they already get discount compared to normal residential/industrial rates.. so a 30% tax is not that much... especially when smart asic farms can just file yearly gains/losses of mining when bitcoin bear markets post the 2025 ATH.. thus can offset losses against tax and thus not have to pay tax

as for the rest of the hobby miners that get caught mining from home, well yes they have to declare their hobby as a business and pay tax, but that will just push underlying costs of mining up for some which will strengthen the underlying value of bitcoin support to never drop below $##k again
so biden effectively gives bitcoin more value by making it more expensive for some to mine bitcoin

the actual repercussions is not the tax cost... but the declarations of sources of income, where power companies will be more likely to become reporting agencies of high use residents, sending agents to peoples homes to investigate reasons for high use of energy (much like they did when weed farming was illegal and authorities used energy bills as suspicions of running a weed farm)

Biden is a wannabe dictator. This idiot should know that he cannot unilaterally make the tax laws. That is the job of Congress.

When the miners threatened to sue his sorry ass for trying to force them to disclose private information they threatened to sue and he was forced to back down.

This harebrain idea will never get through the Congress or the courts.

30% of miner's electricity cost? It's not small, even considering miner usually get bulk/discounted price. Unless electricity company in U.S. can offer even cheaper rate within few years, we'll see miner leaving America.

The only thing these governments are good at is, taxing people for everything they could think of and this will happen globally because we have already seen how Indian government has applied 30% tax of crypto profits and also 1% TDS on every trade and eventually banned foreign exchanges who cannot implement this and now Biden admin has planned this 30% crypto mining tax, though people will say it won't be that much considering the discounts they get but it's an additional cost for us and income for government which doesn't even support Bitcoin.

Trump could at least probably do more than tax more than necessary. Biden is facing a comparable opponent for the second time, so if he wants the votes of the Bitcoin community then the decision he made today was the wrong one. Currently dealing with US policy is very difficult, strict and has too many rules, miners need to move if they want to get relief.

Taxes on Bitcoin are inevitable, the more popular Bitcoin gets, the more restrictions we get in return. Situation can't be like it was in 2016. In 2016, Bitcoin wasn't popular, governments weren't much interested in it and there weren't regulations because Bitcoin wasn't even considered as a currency by many governments, companies and organizations. Now Bitcoin is a very popular currency used by millions of people and tax is inevitable.

Yesterday I wanted to buy something from a shop that was accepting bitcoin payments and have bought many things from them via Bitcoin in the last year. Yesterday, I didn't see Bitcoin as a payment option and when I messaged the shop owner, he told me that he hated paying the capital gains taxes on Bitcoins.

I’m curious to know, is the "30% tax on electricity used by crypto miners" higher than the tax on production or used in commercial activities? If higher, then another question arises. Why is there such discrimination against mining? Does the government believe that this is an overly profitable industry, which means it needs to be strangled with taxes?

If they wanted to allow this industry to develop, then taxes would, on the contrary, be reduced to attract new miners to the country. High taxes only discourage miners.

It should be recognized that any government of any country will try to do this. Taxes are not the worst thing, but criminal prosecution is a completely different matter, like having a "room full of firearms".

Squeeze as much as possible is the actual new meaning of taxation, that now applied to crypto as well since it no more a thing that can be ignored since it's part of the world's economy. People may find ways to avoid taxes so they no need to shift to different country whenever something that is not favorable for their operations.

I imagine that it will be a global trend for governments to start creating taxes for those who use cryptocurrencies, it is a path of no return, starting with ETFs, the traditional market and the government cannot do anything about it, just tax and try to censor, and that is what they will do. But a bitcoiner doesn't care about that. And there is nothing governments can do either.

Just narratives to convince people to pay taxes on their currencies otherwise they will be compared to marginal. Who cares?

That's a lot. IIRC, just after his proclamation as the POTUS, I think there were talks about him getting some of his attention into crypto/bitcoin but this is what I am not expecting to come.

Since this is still a proposal, so I think that there's a big chance that it will be approved before the election on November.

There might be miners that will just say that they're not into mining so their electricity that's being used for mining won't be taxed if this becomes a law.

That is tax evasion and it is a crime, i don't think miners would want to take that risk, if this is implemented and some of them cannot cope with it as it eats into their profit, they will pack up their gears and move to another location with cheap electricity and favorable laws. I don't know if the government is doing this to attack BTC, because they know that the u.s. has most of the BTC miners, and a lot of them may be forced to leave if this gets implemented.

Does anyone really think this is Biden's idea? Well, a man does not know who is alive and who is dead, in which country he is and with whom he is talking, and someone thinks that he personally has a problem with Bitcoin? Taxes have always existed and will continue to exist, and increasing taxes as in this case is just a cultural way of telling miners to pick up their equipment and find another home.

On one occasion, I wrote that China and the US are not so different when it comes to human rights and freedoms, with the difference that China passed a law and banned Bitcoin trading and mining, while the US will do it in a much more "democratic way" by increasing taxes.

As for whether Trump would be better than Biden, perhaps some have forgotten what Trump had planned for cryptocurrencies at the very end of his term, and the Biden administration rejected all of that. Whether it will be Biden or Trump is completely irrelevant for Bitcoin, the policy basically remains the same, which is the protection of the national currency and national interests.

It is like lawsuits from SEC. against cryptocurrency companies like exchanges and it is considered as their over wrongly used power to force companies move out of the USA. In a Congressional hearing months ago, SEC. Chair Gensler was asked about it and he failed to response convincingly.

I agree with you but at least in the USA. there will be fighting between two parties and it's better for their citizens. It's better than in China when one party controls all aspects in that nation. No democracy in China and it is not only about Bitcoin mining industry.

The end game will be defending their national currency but their politicians have to bargain with their citizens when they need votes. I see it is still good for human rights and benefit their citizens can fight for.

If the Republic party takes over the White House with Trump and more improvements in the Congress, they might do something more positive for cryptocurrency industry, for Bitcoin community. If their actions in future are not enough, they will lose their positions next 2 or 4 years and the cycle will repeat.

As if the outcome of the election depends on crypto-friendly voters, and we know that's simply not true. I'll just say that Trump with his "cowboy" behavior is much more dangerous than Biden, and I really don't know what should be better in the US when it comes to cryptocurrencies?

The US has Coinbase, Grayscale, Microstrategy, BlackRock, Fidelity + the largest network of crypto ATMs in the world and more than a third of miners in its territory - it's not like we can say that they're not crypto friendly, right? However, lobbying and interests are always intertwined, and a proposal can always remain only a proposal if someone powerful lobbies to keep it that way.

He's not, he's proposing this to Congress. Just like every other president we've ever had. Jeez.

well yeah, bitcoin miners could turn into the new weed growers looked down upon just as much with just as much contempt and suspicion. i could see the  day when the government has a team of special agents just to seek out bitcoin miners and bust them and throw them in jail for evading paying excise taxes.


of course it's not his idea but he signs off on everything. think "democratic party". the same people responsible for the border crisis, i mean invasion...


people can own as many firearms in the usa as they want and go and shoot their guns as often as they want without having to report what they are doing to any government agency. it's no one's business. try and use bitcoin in any meaningful way other than shuffling it around from wallets you own and see if you can do that without reporting it to the irs.

Enough time to make plans ;)

In any case, there is a good chance that more and more of such negative news would start coming out of United States in the following years. From increased taxes on miners, traders, crypto related businesses, etc. all the way to any individual that has ever thought about a cryptocurrency.
The more Bitcoin grows, they more they'll fight it.

very good! that type of thing was what was supposed to make bitcoin be mainstream.


what a hassle. who would want to take payments in bitcoin if they have to do that? so you can't blame him. what a huge pain to have to worry about paying capital gains tax on a sale when you receive bitcoin as payment and then sell it to actually get your money. what a disaster.  :o

What if the electricity is "green"(produced by solar panels and wind turbines)? Will it still be taxed 30%? If the answer is yes, then this is clearly a discrimination tax over the cryptocurrency miners. And by the way, Biden isn't proposing anything. His team of economists is making the proposals. At this point I don't know if Biden even remembers what he ate for breakfast today. Anyway, I don't believe that this proposal will be approved in the Congress, where the Republicans have a majority, but who knows. Some republicans are crypto haters, so they might accept the proposal.

That's America for you. The US government will tax everything businesses do there, on the grounds that it is to maintain sustainability and excessive energy use. This might be burdensome for Bitcoin miners there and it is possible that they will move their mining location to a country that is more friendly to their operations.
Luckily in my country the government does not impose such high taxes on Bitcoin mining businesses, on the contrary the government gives them tax discounts to keep their operations continuing and keep the cryptocurrency ecosystem in my country further developing.

Governments are same in all nations and they want to charge as much tax as possible from their citizens. Democracy or dictatorship, they will try to get more money from citizens.

Differences in politics, systematic foundations can give governments easier or harder chance to do what they want but basically we can not trust politicians in any country. They easily promise but usually don't fulfill their promise after all.

With the US. debt clock that increases sharply and the loss of purchasing power of US. dollar, they have to go seriously with citizen tax.
https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
Purchasing power of the US. dollar over time (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/purchasing-power-of-the-u-s-dollar-over-time/)

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Purchasing-Power-of-the-U.S.-Dollar-Over-Time.jpg

Did you think otherwise? Politicians generally don't know anything about Bitcoin. Biden already came up with this idea before, why would you think he suddenly got educated on Bitcoin.

Anyway Congress does budgets, President just gives his budget proposal. Seeing as how an absurd and arbitrary mining tax would be a very very small item in the budget, there is no worry about this actually becoming law. It'll easily get taken out.

There are so, so many things wrong with this graphic:

1. It cherry-picks very specific consumer goods, which are subject to market volatility--and the items it picks are really bad examples since they are simple products. A better example is something complicated like an new car. Plug that into the graph above--and then account for things like the longevity and quality of the good--and your graph gets much flatter.

2. It does not compare the average income of workers. Back when a Hershey bar only cost ten cents, the average worker only made two dollars a day. Today the average wage in the USA is over $250 per day.

But even if you still use this graph, you would note that in the last 40 years, the US dollar has been amazingly stable.

Joe Biden ATH in April 2021
Joe Biden ATH in Nov. 2021
Joe Biden ATH in Mar. 2024

Donald Trump ended like kind trades of all crypto in fact all like kind trades of any kind except wait for it real estate. Which directly benefits the Trump business of real estate.

So before people attack biden and favor trump read the above and realize trump is likely to be shittier than biden.

I have been around a bit I am 67 and I can tell you no president should be older than me fuck both of them.

For the big mining companies, it's not a huge deal. They've got special deals with the power company, kind of like a senior discount. They can also game the system a bit by using those slow times to wipe away their taxes like magic. So, for them, it's more of a minor annoyance.

But for the little guys, the ones mining from their basements? This tax stings. It might even force them to shut down shop. Now, that might sound bad for Bitcoin, but here's the twist: fewer miners means it's harder to find new Bitcoins. Kinda like fewer miners digging for gold means less gold gets unearthed. This scarcity could actually drive the price of Bitcoin up – like a weird game of musical chairs.

The real eyebrow-raiser is the whole "reporting your income" thing. This tax plan might mean power companies start acting like the energy police, looking for houses that are using way too much juice. It's like when they used to check your electricity bill to see if you were growing weed in your basement!

I know there has been a great internal interest in the next USA coming elections but I think we have to let these guys be who they are and not involve them into crypto affairs. The past few days, they infiltrate into the Bitcoin saying some good stuffs about the Bitcoin and that's because they want the Bitcoin community to support their candidates but after the election, they ditch everyone and set up unfavorable policy that will scare the investors from Bitcoin but to come back their own bonds and stock market.

I might not be too familiar with the system of the US but even tax from othwr investment is always heavy, also in between 30% or lower depending on the size of your investment. The US system is known for heavy task since the immemorial, so I don't think if this should be a propaganda or anything affirmative for the government. As long as they don't ban Bitcoin, I don't have a problem with them.

most usa mining ⛏️ is large farms. not people doing 25kwatt to 150kwatt

small people with one miner may go under the wire.

Looking at this, is like the Biden government has never supported the idea of Bitcoin mining and investment. This is atr people that don't want people to get rich though Bitcoin investment that is why they are always ready to bring tax that would make people to stay away from Bitcoin mining or trading. It is obvious that the government has no good plan for all bitcoiners in the United States. ID the government wants to collect 30% tax on electricity, it means that the miners would have not reasonable profits from the mining couples with how expensive the tools for Bitcoin mining could be and other things that are involved.

Before Biden won the election in November of 2020, Bitcoin was at about $15,000.

Bitcoin is over $68,000 today.

Biden, in short, has been been coincidental with a 450% appreciation of Bitcoin.

Unlike Biden, Trump needs hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for lawsuits, and has a business on the verge of collapse, meaning he could potentially need billions. Nobody should trust somebody like that to not try to manipulate crypto markets in his own favor to the detriment of other coins like Bitcoin. One word from Trump could send Bitcoin into the toilet and he knows that. And if that meant TrumpCoin would do better, then that's exactly what he would do.

Personally, I'm voting for stable government in 2024. That's the best thing for the digital currency markets.

With the number of laws and regulations that happen every day it's highly possible he isn't even aware of the details, no president alive unless he governs over 100 people would be able to keep up with all those, it just gets passed from commission to commission to agency when it finally makes it to a higher office and then it's a matter of who's backing it.


The first time I heard such a thing, I saw you're from Indonesia and I' 've never seen news of any large farm there, so what are those discounts?
Because a 30% tax on 2.5 cents per kwh is still cheaper than a discount of 50% from 8 cents.


So they don't want people to get rich and have money and to tax them but instead, they want the masses to be poor so they have no taxes to collect and need to pay them all kinds of social welfare programs from the government budget. And you think that's their plan?  :D

that wouldn't matter at all to biden.


you bet!

If implemented, crypto mining companies must report the amount and type of electricity they use. In addition, firms must report the value of the electricity used if they purchase it externally. Meanwhile, Miners who lease computational capacity would be mandated to report the value of the electricity of the company that leased them the capacity. The value would then serve as the tax base.

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity. Companies that produce or acquire power “off-grid” would also need to pay a 30% tax on the estimated costs of their electricity bills.

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/biden-resurrects-30-crypto-mining-tax-in-new-budget-proposal-202403121228



yeah we all know he is not the one that is coming up with these things but he agrees to all of them so he's just as bad as the people coming up with them.  :o

this is their second time trying to push it into some type of law. it seems like someone is determined come hell or high water to kill bitcoin mining in the usa.


the federal minimum wage is only about $7 per hour so yeah. they do want them to be poor. if they didn't they would raise that to what most cities have had to do anyway. the government dropped the ball.

i think biden's plan is to redistribute the wealth by taking it from higher income earners and giving it out to people of low income. that's not so bad but when you invite millions of people to just come across the border, that makes it kind of hard to accept. but that's what's happening.   :o

that's why we see them trying to tax anything that moves. so they can give out more money to people that really need it.


I agree! It's like I said, gun owners have more privacy than bitcoin miners will if this thing passes. Even people that own semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 killing machine.

that goes without saying if this thing passes.

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it would seem like the only way out of this situation is to move to a proof of stake model because they can always track you down by your power useage.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesbroughel/2023/03/15/biden-shouldnt-tax-cryptos-electricity-use/?sh=21aab6306418

The proposed tax would also likely favor proof of stake (PoS) models of transaction verification over proof of work (PoW) models. PoW is the method currently used by Bitcoin; as noted, it involves solving complex mathematical problems. PoS, on the other hand, obliges users to stake their own cryptocurrency as collateral to verify transactions. The PoS method requires significantly less energy than the PoW method and is therefore—at least for now—more environmentally friendly.



[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

I am correcting you:


Socialist policies consist of taking away what they have from the most productive people to give crumbs to the non-productive people and make more and more of society dependent on the state. Argentina is a good example of this. From having the highest GDP in the world to being a disaster of a country for many years.


Of course. How is he going to support an asset that is used in part as currency and that he cannot control. An asset that gives people freedom? No way. There is nothing they hate more. Free people independent of the state.

And what, you think they can't track you if you go PoS?

Furthermore, it would take just a warrant and two major staking pools taken over and you've just granted one authority control over the coin, at least with farms they will need to keep them staffed, consuming power, replace gear, make somehow impossible for the others to get more gear so they can overpower the controlled one, with ETH for example you just go after lido and you have 30% of the staking eth, raid coinbase and kraken and you are close in for a majority!

If an ETH ETF is approved you might see BlackRock owning more than enouhg to control it alone completely, what solution are you going to have then?

This isn't a Biden tax, it's a deep state tax to make BTC mining less competitive in the US. ;)

Sleepy Joe doesn't even remember the breakfast he ate today! ;D

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Hmmm, not really:

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

1971 was 53 years ago.

That you have to go back that far sorta makes my point for me…

Didn't expect much from a Biden fan. Your perception of reality is roughly the same.

Interesting. What is 2024-1971 using Trump Math^TM?

Just curious…

You better explain Biden math. I don't trust WEF puppets.

#HFSP

Sure thing.

1. I had mentioned that the US dollar has been pretty darn stable for the last 40 years.

2. You countered this by giving the example of the inflation that happened around 1971.

3. I pointed out that 1971 was 53 years ago, based on the mathematical equation: 2024 - 1971 = 53

4. You seem to continue to object to this, while throwing out some personal insults, implying that math is a partisan thing, which is probably best that we ignore.




 

You need to explain why food/gasoline prices have skyrocketed since 2021... not me.

What we need to ignore is you claiming that Biden is a "sane" politician or that FED has a "sane" monetary policy. Either you're trolling or you're crazy.

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Ignore what? Psychological projection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)? Or gaslighting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting) me?

You implied first (you even used a trademark, FFS!) that math is a "partisan" thing, not me.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

---

Ignore what? Psychological projection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)? Or gaslighting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting) me?

You implied first (you even used a trademark, FFS!) that math is a "partisan" thing, not me.

There was a pandemic. The United States recovered from the pandemic better than almost every other western country.

Inflation is now essentially back to normal pre-pandemic levels.

Prices are not back to normal, they're double... wages have not doubled.

I still don't understand how government bureaucrats can convince themselves imposing %30 tax on crypto businesses is something normal. %30 is ridiculously high. Considering mining businesses can be with their ups and down in relation with Bitcoin or other altcoin prices. To be honest anything more than %10 is exceptionally shitty idea in cryptocurrency context. This is not a business where you put your products and services on market and sell. Its something completely new and governments should not mess it up.

Yes that's right and if we see the government's always make assumptions in setting the percentage limit is looking at the level of income and exactly as you say, the problem is that the 30% tax figure will probably be their burden with high assumptions. I am sure that they will recalculate to adjust the implementation costs and profits, whether it is suitable if it is not suitable and they lose, the risk is that they change places in carrying out their business activities.

Wherever the implementation of taxes is seen as able to increase state revenue, there needs to be a policy that has the right balance between encouraging growth and overcoming potential risks because Every growth of the tax collection industry is 2 things that will remain true anywhere and anytime , especially in the economy, especially in this case crypto mining which is growing rapidly today.

That's what the image is trying to say: dollar value is dumping over long run as inflation keeps growing thanks to non-stop money printing policies.
Assuming your numbers are correct, two dollars a day was the wage when dollar hadn't dumped this much. Now that it is significantly dumped the employers are forced to to pay workers 125x higher wages!

It's not a tax on business. It's a tax on electricity used if you buy it!
There was a misunderstanding in it that you will pay even if you generate it yourself but that off-grid purchase definition is only when you buy it from another operator, in fact just how many minign farms are doing right now, by having a private offgrid contract with a powerplant.

And if anyone thinks this will be a disaster for mining in the US, those guys pay between 2- and 3 cents per kwh, this 30% increase would lead them to 4 cents per kwh at most, do you think they will pack their bags and go...where? Cause that would still be insanely cheaper compared to half of the world.
So they will simply stay put, pay up, or raise money to buy their own power source that will exclude them from the tax.

And employers have 250x more money to pay them (etc.). Profits are at all-time highs right now, even adjusted for inflation. Our standard of living is the highest it's ever been.

Absolute inflation numbers are meaningless. What helps businesses is relative price stability, and for the past 40 years, with a break for a 100 year black swan even event with the pandemic, prices in the US have been very stable.

And the USA has succeeded through the pandemic better than almost any other country.


No, prices have not "doubled". Not even close.

Unless you watch the partisan media, which would try to focus on one particular product in the market that has gone up in price due to some anomaly. If you look at a complicated product like a new car, and compare the same car for sale now and five years ago, prices have gone up perhaps 10% (even though the quality is marginally improved as well, reducing the long-term cost of the asset).

We sadly seem to have an entire political class who think its in our best interest that the American economy is terrible so they will win the next election. People should resist partisan rhetoric and look at the numbers--and their own outlook--themselves.

the only person misunderstanding it seems to be you.

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity.

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/biden-resurrects-30-crypto-mining-tax-in-new-budget-proposal-202403121228


that's a separate thing but the would still have to pay too:

Companies that produce or acquire power “off-grid” would also need to pay a 30% tax on the estimated costs of their electricity bills.

or are you saying the article i linked to is wrong?

well if that's the case then the tax should be even higher as they could surely handle it.


no they really can't. not like they can with power usage.

then modify the proof of stake protocol so that everyone has an equal chance of being a validator.

The misunderstanding is in the companies that produce or buy it off-gird, the tax will be aimed at the companies that do that off-gird but are not limiting their production to the said mine, otherwise you would have nothing to tax since most large farms are directly connected to huge powerplants that have a direct contact with them. That's why the term particular is here:
" for example by using the output of a particular electricity generating plant,"

Also , a lot ignore the other thing, not only it's a proposal, but:

So till 2025, they will only pay 10%, again, considering the deals they have and the buy-back schemes, not a single one will leave.
They will pay up and that's that, compared to the halving a 10% on electricity will be nothing.

And look at the bright side, that might be a moment hobby miners might have a chance, how can a small guy compete with a huge farm that buys electricity at 2.5 cents per kwh and gets a 10-20% discount on buying MQO of 100 units?
And another bright side, wasn't everyone concerned that the US might gain a majority in the total hash rate (juts like China) and that it was bad for decentralization? Forced decentralization by everyone fleeing everywhere!

explain this statement:

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity.

put up solar panels to run your mine, you pay the tax. because you're generating your own electricity. that's what it says to me.

that's not a bright side for the small guy. that kind of puts the small guy at a huge disadvantage. with this tax it makes it an even bigger one since they are getting taxed on 30% of 11 cent per kwh rather than just 2.5. so if you're for centralizing hash power in big mining farms then i guess you support this legislation.  :o

maybe that is a bright side but putting small miners out of business is not one of them. goodbye to small miners if this thing passes either that or they become criminals for doing tax evasion. there shoud be alot of antminers being dumped on ebay if this thing passes.

Some people are habitual contrarians... it's not just Franky who enjoys doing this.

It's asinine to claim that the US government imposes taxes to promote "decentralization" (next thing they're gonna tell you is China did the same back in May 2021 :D), only an IQ 50 person would believe that. You make a good point about wholesale vs retail electricity prices/taxes.

Regarding taxes, let's keep in mind that every solar panel sold in the market requires you to pay sales tax/VAT, right?

I'll never understand why modern people say "that's just the way the system works, man, nothing I can do about it".

Need I remind you what ignited the American Revolution against Great Britain? Yeah, it was a tax issue and people didn't just ignore it... you could call them "tax evaders", I prefer to call them rebels.

My point is, you decide to bend over and take it in the ass, you deserve the worst behavior from the feds.

Stop being a lapdog and start being a wolf again, like your ancestors were.

no one claimed that. but i think he was saying that decentralization would be a side affect of them doing that. which does kind of make sense if it results in an exodus of miners from the usa but what is decentralization really based on? geographical location or controlling party? i would say its the latter more than the former.

i'm glad you agree with me that this would hurt the little guy more than the big guy. mom and pop miners will really be hit hard. i don't see how they would be able to survive.

yeah just on the initial purchase but not on the amount of electricity you generate every month. can you imagine if the government did THAT? charging you for any electricity you use no matter what it was for. adding on a 30% tax for that? why not? they're trying to do it for mining.

because society is alot more complicated than it used to be. private companies operate prison facilities and stuff like that.

rebels don't exist anymore. unless they are in jail. for a long time.

that's easy to say but society in the usa is too fragmented and complex to think or expect that anyone is going to organize and go up against the us government even on a city level to say nothing of federal. if the entire state of texas can't run the border down south like they want to what makes you think you can do anything you want to?

https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/22/texas-border-supreme-court-immigration/

His capital gains tax increases are pretty crazy as well. This is definitely something to keep an eye on. A lot of Bitcoin holders could be wise to sell in December if he is really going to more than double the capital gains tax. I don’t think he will and even if he did I think Trump will get in and reverse all Biden’s craziness. Still something to watch.

30% of miners' electricity cost is not small.

I wish the people of America good luck  ;D

If all you do is mine Bitcoin as a source of income, there is still enough time now to reconsider another country, but God has mercy on your soul if you are the type who loves his or her country.

The best time to mine Bitcoin is now and the value is still very good enough, after the coming halving the reward will be cut in  half, and maybe in a year and half, we will be in another bear market? It will be hard to keep mining when your electricity is making it harder and now taxes too.

Basically they're trying to tax the Sun (https://www.aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/DSC03733-10-683x1024.jpg), which provides free energy for billions of years. :o

That's stupid beyond belief and whoever accepts it as the status quo deserves the worst as I said...

the problem is, such a small percentage of people are going to be affected by this law in the usa that the voice of the miners is going to be so small as to be negligible. on the other hand, lets say biden was trying to tax uber/lyft drivers an additional 30% on their electricity use of their electric car well then that would be a different story. the drivers would raise a huge stink about that and a bazillion journalists would be writing stories on it like this was the gravest injustice ever known to man...

If Biden wants to lose the election this a great way to do it. 14% of Americans own crypto, with closer to 20% in states like California.

That is a significant voting block with crypto being a major topic of discussion in the presidential debates. The last thing Americans need are more taxes.

So sick of Biden. That is all he is good for is raising taxes on everyday working people.

You're just saying that because there's no better or alternative option, and with how the things are run in the US government, I think that a businessman is the right person to do the thing, maybe if people start electing the right people and not leaving any of them behind when it matters the most, maybe we would see something different and we'd see that the option wouldn't be just Trump or Biden and Old Joe Biden really needs to retire, there's no way that I'd want an old man that probably doesn't know how to use his email to be running a country that for better or worse, would be a burden for the next generation.

Man, they're taking a bit of a slow stroll in increasing the debt ceiling it seems that they're planning to do this kind of thing, that's probably the only reason that I can think of why they're considering reopening this regulation on bitcoin miners, no way that they've planned this through though, that's probably the most appropriate thing to say, "God help us all!"

I have already explained it!
You are not purchasing and you are not owning an energy generation plant!
Also, I've quoted the proposal not the article of a biased about the proposal!

That thing was written to close a loophole that all big players use, go to any of those and check their reports, mara, riot , core and you will see they are using grid plus private generation, but that private generation is from a powerplant that also resells excess energy to the grid.

I just love how a miner has to talk sense into some guys that don't even mine but are outraged by some headlines!

I can give you the perfect example why this whole mess started for it just look for Greenridge, a powerplant owned by atlas llc, it turned from a powerplant into a power plant plus bitcoin miner, then suddenly the company that owned just an electricity generation powerplant in NY, started buying datacenters in texas! You end up with electricity produced in NY that suddenly sells extra energy when the grip is at its limit in Texas  ;D, but they are just a bitcoin miner, and they use their electricity for private stuff, but they also sell it...

Want another example:
Good, look at how riot cashed in millions:


Riot is paying 3 cents per kwh, (for power it "produces")
but is magically allowed in the (ERCOT) Demand Response program, because although not a producer it has a contract that makes it the owner of 345MW.

This is the shit that is going to be taxed, not the....lol "mom and pop" miners...
Again, when you have large companies paying 2.3 like Core and 2.8 cents per kwh like Mara, you should stop preaching about the apocalypse!


Yeah and in Theory 20% of Indians own crypto and 25% of Nigerians do so, yet I haven't seen one protest in the streets why they are enforcing bans on exchanges and ip bans.

If 14% that's 40 million let's say Americans own crypto 39 million of them don't even care about Bitcoin being pos of pow, they care about the numbers, just think for a moment, with 400k transactions a day it would take 100 days just for one tx per capita if the blockchain would be dedicated to Americans only.

Nothing will happen, and nobody is going to march in the streets for the miners!
Aso, another reality check, I'm fed up with the shit people throw at miners here, that we manipulate the fees, that we mine ordinals, that we dump coins, all that crap, I can't wait for the same people that accused miners of everything taking their banners and demanding that miners in the us would need protection from extra taxation. I have my popcorn ready!

Comparism of Uber drivers and miners doesn't make sense because their gross revenue is unmatch, not even close and the energy consumption isn't the same. The last time I check about the US tax is base on the amount you earn, if you earn small amount the government will likely charge you less and if you earned high amount, you are likely to get high tax because even with amenities, the reach tend to get special treatment when it comes to allocation of these amenities.

The Comparism should have been between the stock investors and the miners and when you check what stock and other investments tax charges the US government collect from these people, it's likely the same with miners though it's less for minor investors. The US is known for heavy taxing and that's why a lot of investors are running from the country, some of her citizens don't bring their money back to the country because of these taxes.

What those 14% are going to understand is that the value of their holdings increase by 500% under Biden.

Obviously there are a lot of people who will simply hate Biden for the typical reasons of polarization these days, but if all you care about is your crypto going up in price, Biden is your man.

Read this again:

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity.


no that's not what it was written for. the government wants to reduce mining activity and the harms that go along with it be they environmental or something else.
that's what the revenue proposal says.

no one is criticising miners. but i think a reasonable concern is that bitcoin miners drive up electricity costs for retail power company customers. and i am sure they don't appreciate it...

I would guess that we are talking about taxing because no matter what you are spending your money on, remember that there will always be government need for more money, and they will always use their taxing power to get that money from you. They do not like poor people because they can't tax them, in fact they hate welfare people even more because not only they can't tax them but also they have to give their taxes to the poor.

They love rich people though, they take their money directly into their own pockets, and not even tax them, that way the rich pay less taxes, and the politicians get richer. So, if you want them to not tax the mining companies, just bribe them, that way instead of paying a collective 100 million more dollars on tax, pay 50 million in bribery and you will be fine.

Yet another proposal thread being portrayed like it will definitely become a law in the future. Personally, I don't think this particular proposal will be approved though we never know.

Also, it's hilarious seeing naive people think that Trump would magically care about crypto investors. Most government heads will always try their best to suppress the power of crypto.

30% tax is too much for crypto mining because the mining speed is very low now so if a miner pays 30% tax to the government on electricity bill and other processing machine cost then I don't know if that miner can make profit or not.  I have never mined so I don't know much about the mining rate.  So I can't make an accurate estimate of how much profit a miner would have if he paid 30% of his mining tax to the government.

the goal of the government in doing something like this would be to curtail mining activities. to make it less profitable, if at all. sure they want to put some people out of business. that's the entire goal.

this is the 2nd time it is being proposed apparently. notice the word "resurrects" in the title. that means its back on the table again. and again and again and again until eventually something happens. it may not be 30% but we can't just let miners drive up electricity costs for residential consumers and legitimate businesses. whether you consider mining a legitimate business, the government doesn't.

If the Biden administration was clever on their approach towards Bitcoin and other decentralized assets they would have realized how convenient it is for them to keep harsh power within the United States instead scaring away miners onto other countries which could be political adversaries of the Biden administration or even against the ideals of the American democracy.
It is all speculation, but it could be Biden and the Federal Reserve in general do not wish for the USA to harbor good sentiments for Bitcoin, because it would be in detriment of the future adoption of the CBDC (decentralized digital currency of the USA).

Not long ago, much of the hashrate power was centralized in China, and there were some people worried about it and how the communist government of China could take advantage of it, since then the hashrate has moved to other different countries and many which are more democratic. It is a pity the government of the United States is too stubborn to see Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency is part of the future.

Well they don't enough power yet, but send them El Salvador!

Do you know what socialists want the most? Your money.
They will make up all those new taxes, the way they try to do it in the EU. Your money in the bank is taxed more than once, because you have inflation (which is a tax on savings) and if you get interest on your money that interest is additionally taxed, because socialists think you've made money. This is their simple math - he had a gain, he made money. It doesn't matter that he got 5% a year and inflation is 6% - according to them the man is in profit.

I feel like these democrats, which are basically socialists, have no idea how the market works. You keep taxes low, everybody will pay it, but keep it high and people will move somewhere else and you won't get anything.

It seems that the way the government of some countries with the U.S  being a major culprit, have opted to treat the issue of cryptocurrencies being adopted and accepted for transaction and payments as a serious matter, by taxing it. By taxing them more on utility usage and regulating their affairs online.

Last week a mining company in same U.S took out its old BTC mining machines to Colorado springs where they should undergo refurbishment and possibly resale to interested parties as well as companies hoping to move to more locale environment where electricity and other utilities necessary to manage a BTC mining farm is economically sustainable.

Am sure why the U.S is going hard on regulating and taxing Crypto users is also their concern of crypto being a tool for sponsorship of terrorism and money laundering schemes by top executives.

Indeed. When governments create abusive regulations like that, it means they want to curb people from certain practices, instead of directly regulating a ban or censorship over it, what would eventually bring criticisms and accusations against the government of being a tyrannical one, which doesn't respect individual freedom of its citizens. Anyway, why is US government so worried about the electricity usage for crypto mining purposes? Are they going to face any energy crisis if americans start using their power to mine crypto in large scale?

Otherwise, why would they want some people out of the business?

Maybe they are thinking that one way to curb down the number of miners is to charge them with such high tax. They may possibly change their mind if they are seeing the benefit of getting the biggest hashpower in bitcoin or crypto mining. Right now, they are not seeing it yet.

But you know miners, they will always find a better place to do their mining activities. Just look at China when they banned miners, some went to neighboring countries, or Canada and other friendly countries where tax are quite low.

Looking at the current btc mining map, I don't know how China is still getting high hash power despite the ban. Seems that they are not very successful in implementing their ban protocol

https://chainbulletin.com/bitcoin-mining-map/
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/04/01/VISJH.png

Yeah definitely sell before Biden gets elected. Think about how much money you would have made off that trade if you did that last time--when Bitcoin went up 500% during Biden's presidency.

but inflation also went up during his presidency. when it costs $20 for a burger and frieds, you know you're doing bad.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mcdonalds-18-big-mac-meal-181159814.html

minimum wage in the usa i already hear people grumbling about how it needs to be $50 per hour.


but back to bitcoin 30% excise tax proposal. not only would miners pay the 30% tax on their electricity which was a cost of obtaining their bitcoin block reward but they also have to pay normal taxes on that bitcoin too! Biden is trying to double dip on them for sure.  :o bad thing about this 30% tax is it is money straight out of their pockets NO MATTER WHAT. no matter if they mine any bitcoin or not. they get to pay extra just for trying.

Inflation wasn't 500% in the last 4 years. Get real. It was 10% or so overall. Slight difference.

I predict that if the Donald Trump will win the presidency of America, his administration will certainly treat the cryptospace much better than the Biden administration has treated this. The Donald will want to regulate this, however, it will not be similar to how uncle Gary has done where he is doing regulation through enforcement. The Donald's tactic of regulating the cryptospace will be more diplomatic and fair. We can be quite sure of this.

not 10% in 4 years, maybe 10% per year. working people want to see raises of at least 10% per year in case you didn't know. and that means in 10 years, $20 per hour will need to be about $45 per hour for entry level positions. and why shouldn't they be entitled to that? when everything is going up in price, rents, food, utilities...that's why they had to put in rent controls in california due to greedy landlords. but those landlords are going to raise the rents every chance they can legally get anyway. whatever that might be.

back on topic though, an interesting and probably relevant analogous situation is the MTA tax in NYC alot of people are upset about having to pay a fee to come into manhatten in their car. just like miners, they are contributing to a negative environment so they should be forced to pay a fee for that. where i disagree is if someone is using renewable energy as in using THEIR OWN SOLAR PANELS to mine bitcoin though.. but if you have an electric car, you're still congesting the city so you should still have to pay.

This wouldn’t be the same if they used some form of solar energy, I assume. But I also understand that these computers use a lot of energy, but why not gradually migrate to solar energy where you don’t have to answer to anyone and you don’t have to be careful of how much electricity you consume? I don’t know if it’s been discussed before as a solution?

I appreciate the idea. Truly,  solar energy can be an alternative to electricity, but do keep in mind that solar energy equipment or set-up is not a cheap one, or it's also expensive equipment and also the cost of setting it up. But yeah, it is worth it in the long run as you can use it for too long. But the question is, does solar energy match the performance or endurance of electricity? We know how much electricity a mining setup or rig can cost, so it is also very hard to rely entirely on solar energy, maybe just as a supplementary, but that doesn't solve the idea of putting a tax on miners or miners who're using electricity in their mining rig. But I still wonder why they will put taxes on miners while they are already paying electricity bills, but we can't argue with that; we would rather obey than be illegal, right?.

Whoever takes the office will face the same budget deficits, ginormous expenses, $35 trillion national debt, global dedollarisation, and a lot more issues. They'll have to pretty much increase taxes, increase interest rates, print trillions of dollars, and a lot more to get out of the mess that has been building up for the past 20+ years...

Bitcoin went up 500% under Biden.

the way i understand it is, they don't care where your energy comes from. it could come from solar panels you own or nuclear power from the power company. you still have to pay the tax. it's not about where the electricity comes from it's about reducing mining activities.

because you still have to pay the 30% tax so no you don't avoid the tax and YES you still answer to the government.


you do know why all this financial problems comes from right? from giving out too much free money. i'm all for socialism but let it be for everyone not just some people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

But even if you still have to pay it, it still makes a difference that you use solar because it’s free energy which will reduce your expenses. Because the electricity bills for these crypto mining sites are definitely a lot. But like I said, I don’t entirely know because it may not be a valid solution based on the consumption of each device and the number of devices.

yeah i agree using solar is free in a sense but it does seem unfair to force people to pay 30% tax on the solar power their own system generates. they should be able to use that power however they wish and not have to pay an excise tax on it but sleepy joe thinks otherwise.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2023/05/02/cost-of-cryptomining-dame-tax/
Estimated to raise $3.5 billion in revenue over 10 years, the primary goal of the DAME tax is to start having cryptominers pay their fair share of the costs imposed on local communities and the environment.

i think part of this $3.5 billion is going to have to be used to print more debit cards to hand out to migrants. you can say that "this 3 billion will be used for this here and that 4 billion for that there..." but in reality, no one knows what is used for what. the $300 on the debit card every week doesn't need to know where it came from. could be from bitcoin miners gettting rearended by an excise tax.  :o

so in summary, that's one reason why i think this thing is going to pass this time. joe needs the money!

I don't understand how can anyone vote for Biden while holding any stack on BTC. If you are serious about this and want to not see the project sabotaged, then you want to put people in power that will lobby for your interests, simple as that. Biden, Warren, AOC and co think they will get more votes being anti Bitcoin and pro Bitcoin, so even if I don't like Trump because he is a clown, I would vote for him at this point. At least he has shown a predisposition to not be hostile against Bitcoin. If they want to go on and vote democrat then they will not have a right to complain when the mining industry in USA collapses and that would suck since investing in Bitcoin miners is a great way to get extra alpha on bullruns.

Bitcoin went up 500% under Biden. If all you care about is your Bitcoin going up in value, then Biden is the best bet.

And trusting Trump to be pro-Bitcoin (and not, say, officially replacing Bitcoin with Trumpcoin) sounds pretty dicey to me.

The safe bet is to stick with Biden.

what exactly did biden do to make bitcoin go up though? name one policy. "printing more money" is the only thing i can think of. i dont understand why anyone thinks that a us president could have any affect on bitcoin price at all though. other than "printing more money". all their policies to tax it and things like that only affect americans.

There seem to be a lot of Trump supporters here who advocate voting for Trump for the good of their Bitcoin value. I agree it's a tenuous connection to any president, but if there is any, the only president who could beat Biden's record is... Obama  :).

 

i hope no one thinks trump cares about their crypto. i seriouisly doubt he cares about crypto at all. he's just not interested in it look at the regulations that got enacted on bitcoin when he was president. people started having to pay taxes on their bitcoin. and yet people want to vote for him because they think he helps bitcoin? he doesn't give a damn about it. trump let the irs start holding americans accountable for declaring their bitcoin to the government he really doesn't care about freedom. :o

That was a funny way of campaigning for a presidential candidate ;)

What's funnier is that in a country of over 300 million, Americans are forced to choose between two of the worst candidates of their short 200 year history. Two senile old men both of whom are terrible for everything you can think of from Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies all the way to small domestic issues. ;D

You are too honest... Lol.
But I definitely support trum if I'm a U.S. citizen. The tax is huge, Trump seems to have changed he started supporting crypto with NFTs. So I think everyone will vote for a leader who supports following his interests. I hope Trump's decision to become president will make decisions that continue to support the development of crypto.

with the crypto mining tax, the tactic is to suppress bitcoin and launch digital money, but on the other hand, it will destroy the progress of this industry, but in the future, Trump will enforce bitcoin and care about all of that.

What would be even funnier is if america made the same mistake twice in picking him for president a 2nd time after the disaster he has made of it the first time. but i wouldn't put anything past people in america. i don't have an issue with people who voted for biden as long as they keep their mouth shut about all his immigration policies and bitcoin policies but as soon as they say one word of complaint then that makes me think they are as dumb as he is.

trump is better than biden. but i don't think he's ideal for bitcoin. he's too rich and traditional (embedded into the world of fiat) so where he doesn't need or see a need for bitcoin for himself so he thinks other people don't need it either. he's not a proponent of it and he would never do anything to help bitcoin. not what we need.

Maybe AOC for president. I'm not sure what her views on crypto are though.

You have made a very good argument. It appears this Cointelegraph is again only creating another fud for our clicks and engagement hehehe.

In any case, the outcome from this will be similar. Some of these miners under the jurisdiction of America will begin to be not be profitable enough to maintain their mining farms and they will start to migrate to other countries. However, the new mayor of bitcoin might have something to do about this. He does not want his investment bothered by puppets heheheee.

He knows or the government sees how impactful bitcoin has been to the individual livelihood of their citizens. America has one of the most bitcoin transactions in the world and we don’t even have the exact number of bitcoin owners in the country.

Of course the government needs to capitalize on that. Quite a bad news for american investors.

Similar to what was being mentioned and argued before, the American government will use regulation and taxation to control different types of industries that are under their jurisdiction. This is not only about bitcoin. However, also similar to what @pooya87 has mentioned, the American government has no choice but to increase taxes everywhere. Their national debt is very enormous and much of the monthly interest payment for this will be coming from taxes.

They can not do all things against their citizens because they need votes from citizens to support their positions in Congress and White house.

If one party over seriously do regulations, they will lose the Congress and White house after four years because most of citizens will not vote for them in a new President Election.

I see fact that no party will completely defend human rights and citizen rights in finance and what they give their citizens is started with their party benefit. It's like a story of "A carrot and a stick".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot_and_stick

@SilverCryptoBullet. You are correct, they cannot. However, they will do enough to receive what is good for then and their sponsors. This is more wealth for themselves and less for you and this is not only a common occurrence in America. This is also in many countries.

In any case, what is this 44.6% capital gains tax? They want to steal more money from the American people  to send to Ukraine?



In March, President Biden proposed a 44.6% capital gains tax in the 2025 government budget, the highest in history. The proposal includes a 25% tax on unrealized gains for high-net-worth individuals. A quote from the March budget proposal reads “Together, the proposals would increase the top marginal rate on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends to 44.6 percent.”

Source https://watcher.guru/news/president-biden-calls-for-44-6-capital-gains-tax-rate



We can be quite certain that the next president will be a Republican.

Satoshi would be in big trouble if he was American if this thing passed since he would owe billions of dollars to the us government and if he didn't pay up by selling some of his bitcoin, he would be considered an OUTLAW. so maybe satoshi saw this day coming when they wanted to tax UNREALIZED gains. they would throw him in jail until he coughed up his private keys.  :o

i think this new rule would only apply to wealthy people. so probably most bitcoin users wouldn't be affected. but i'm sure they would eventually try and enforce it on them too.

@larry_vw_1955. It will cause developers and users to become more anonymous and use more illegal methods to swap their coins to fiat currencies. Also, the government will use fud to make ordinary people afraid to adopt crypto. This is headshaking because if the government is successful, the users that will be left are the natives of the cryptospace and the criminals who are not afraid to use this.

I reckon we should teach everyone to learn about everything on the cryptspace. Spread the knowledge of Bitcoin, Ethereum, scamcoins, ICO, tokens, Monero, Dash, Zcash, privacy, anonymity, proof of work, proof of stake, NFT, DeFi, CEX, DEX. Everyone should use the cryptospace with any coin and with any token.

If this proposal is approved, the US government is shooting itself in the foot because many investors and operators will find more ways to avoid taxes than comply with the law. But I don't think the government is stupid to spread Fud to keep people away from crypto when they have approved bitcoin ETFs. If they do that then who will invest in bitcoin and how will they tax everyone?

Governments are becoming more and more crypto-friendly and in the near future, we will soon see crypto adoption worldwide. The era of anti-crypto governments is over, we don't need to have such negative, hostile thoughts anymore.

It appears the FBI knows about the argument on developers and the users of the cryptospace to be more anonymous after implementation of higher taxes and stricter regulations hehehee. They have warned that Americans should not use unregistered cryptocoin exchanges and services. However, what will they do? They will seize of their domains? This is headshaking because this will be very much a similar occurrence on the darknet where they seize 1 domain and 3 more illegal services are created. This will also make it more harmful for everyone and more advantageous for criminals.



The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation has warned Americans against using unregistered crypto money transmitting services.

Americans should avoid crypto services from firms that are not registered as Money Services Businesses (MSBs) under federal law and do not follow anti-money laundering rules, according to a Thursday statement from the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3).

"A few simple steps can prevent unintentional use of non-compliant services," the FBI wrote in the release. "For example, avoid cryptocurrency money transmitting services that do not collect know your customer (KYC) information from customers when required."

Read in full https://www.theblock.co/post/291009/fbi-warns-americans-against-using-unregistered-crypto-money-transmitting-services

yeah it's just a "warning" don't eat yellow snow, look both ways before you cross the street.... who needs to hear what they have to say?



if you're not making it a crime then don't tell me what to do.  :o



maybe they can find a more friendly country for rich people one that doesn't try and tax them at such a high rate. but its going to require some upfront capital to buy citizenship in some other country so you can ditch that IRS...

@larry_vw_1955. I am starting to speculate that these warnings, wells notices, cases from uncle Gary and all these anticrypto campaigns from American politicians might cause a big dump similar to May 2021 when China bitcoin and the whole of the cryptospace in their jurisdiction.

Will the uncle Gary and the politicians be successful in forcing the cryptospace out of America or will the new mayor of bitcoin defeat them?

https://i.ibb.co/PgkjRxb/F53086-C8-A872-4-D78-8138-957-AD337-E824.jpg
Larry Fink the new mayor of bitcoin

i don't know about that. i don't think bitcoin is actually being used by people to buy products and services anymore than it was 5 or 6 years ago. it's kind of stagnated in that area companies have already had a chance to start accepting bitcoin and if they haven't by now then they probably never will.


so to invest in Larry Fink's bitcoin ETF, you have to trust him that he actually owns all the bitcoin even though you really can't verify that and have to just pretty much trust. plus he charges you a fee. not only that but you have to make your investment on COINBASE, who can freeze your account at anytime. sounds like a winning combo.  :o