Biden resurrects 30% crypto mining tax in new budget proposal

[cryptosize]

Hmmm, not really:

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

1971 was 53 years ago.

That you have to go back that far sorta makes my point for me…

Didn't expect much from a Biden fan. Your perception of reality is roughly the same.

Interesting. What is 2024-1971 using Trump Math^TM?

Just curious…

You better explain Biden math. I don't trust WEF puppets.

#HFSP

[legiteum]

You better explain Biden math. I don't trust WEF puppets.

Sure thing.

1. I had mentioned that the US dollar has been pretty darn stable for the last 40 years.

2. You countered this by giving the example of the inflation that happened around 1971.

3. I pointed out that 1971 was 53 years ago, based on the mathematical equation: 2024 - 1971 = 53

4. You seem to continue to object to this, while throwing out some personal insults, implying that math is a partisan thing, which is probably best that we ignore.




 

[cryptosize]

You better explain Biden math. I don't trust WEF puppets.

Sure thing.

1. I had mentioned that the US dollar has been pretty darn stable for the last 40 years.

2. You countered this by giving the example of the inflation that happened around 1971.

3. I pointed out that 1971 was 53 years ago, based on the mathematical equation: 2024 - 1971 = 53

4. You seem to continue to object to this, while throwing out some personal insults, implying that math is a partisan thing, which is probably best that we ignore.

You need to explain why food/gasoline prices have skyrocketed since 2021... not me.

What we need to ignore is you claiming that Biden is a "sane" politician or that FED has a "sane" monetary policy. Either you're trolling or you're crazy.

implying that math is a partisan thing, which is probably best that we ignore.

Ignore what? Psychological projection? Or gaslighting me?

Interesting. What is 2024-1971 using Trump Math^TM?

Just curious…

You implied first (you even used a trademark, FFS!) that math is a "partisan" thing, not me.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

implying that math is a partisan thing, which is probably best that we ignore.

Ignore what? Psychological projection? Or gaslighting me?

Interesting. What is 2024-1971 using Trump Math^TM?

Just curious…

You implied first (you even used a trademark, FFS!) that math is a "partisan" thing, not me.

[legiteum]

You need to explain why food/gasoline prices have skyrocketed since 2021... not me.

What we need to ignore is you claiming that Biden is a "sane" politician or that FED has a "sane" monetary policy. Either you're trolling or you're crazy.

There was a pandemic. The United States recovered from the pandemic better than almost every other western country.

Inflation is now essentially back to normal pre-pandemic levels.

[cryptosize]

You need to explain why food/gasoline prices have skyrocketed since 2021... not me.

What we need to ignore is you claiming that Biden is a "sane" politician or that FED has a "sane" monetary policy. Either you're trolling or you're crazy.

There was a pandemic. The United States recovered from the pandemic better than almost every other western country.

Inflation is now essentially back to normal pre-pandemic levels.

Prices are not back to normal, they're double... wages have not doubled.

[Pierre 2]

I still don't understand how government bureaucrats can convince themselves imposing %30 tax on crypto businesses is something normal. %30 is ridiculously high. Considering mining businesses can be with their ups and down in relation with Bitcoin or other altcoin prices. To be honest anything more than %10 is exceptionally shitty idea in cryptocurrency context. This is not a business where you put your products and services on market and sell. Its something completely new and governments should not mess it up.

[YUriy1991]

I still don't understand how government bureaucrats can convince themselves imposing %30 tax on crypto businesses is something normal. %30 is ridiculously high. Considering mining businesses can be with their ups and down in relation with Bitcoin or other altcoin prices. To be honest anything more than %10 is exceptionally shitty idea in cryptocurrency context. This is not a business where you put your products and services on market and sell. Its something completely new and governments should not mess it up.

Yes that's right and if we see the government's always make assumptions in setting the percentage limit is looking at the level of income and exactly as you say, the problem is that the 30% tax figure will probably be their burden with high assumptions. I am sure that they will recalculate to adjust the implementation costs and profits, whether it is suitable if it is not suitable and they lose, the risk is that they change places in carrying out their business activities.

Wherever the implementation of taxes is seen as able to increase state revenue, there needs to be a policy that has the right balance between encouraging growth and overcoming potential risks because Every growth of the tax collection industry is 2 things that will remain true anywhere and anytime , especially in the economy, especially in this case crypto mining which is growing rapidly today.

[pooya87]

2. It does not compare the average income of workers. Back when a Hershey bar only cost ten cents, the average worker only made two dollars a day. Today the average wage in the USA is over $250 per day.

That's what the image is trying to say: dollar value is dumping over long run as inflation keeps growing thanks to non-stop money printing policies.
Assuming your numbers are correct, two dollars a day was the wage when dollar hadn't dumped this much. Now that it is significantly dumped the employers are forced to to pay workers 125x higher wages!

[stompix]

I still don't understand how government bureaucrats can convince themselves imposing %30 tax on crypto businesses is something normal. %30 is ridiculously high. Considering mining businesses can be with their ups and down in relation with Bitcoin or other altcoin prices. To be honest anything more than %10 is exceptionally shitty idea in cryptocurrency context. This is not a business where you put your products and services on market and sell. Its something completely new and governments should not mess it up.

It's not a tax on business. It's a tax on electricity used if you buy it!
There was a misunderstanding in it that you will pay even if you generate it yourself but that off-grid purchase definition is only when you buy it from another operator, in fact just how many minign farms are doing right now, by having a private offgrid contract with a powerplant.

And if anyone thinks this will be a disaster for mining in the US, those guys pay between 2- and 3 cents per kwh, this 30% increase would lead them to 4 cents per kwh at most, do you think they will pack their bags and go...where? Cause that would still be insanely cheaper compared to half of the world.
So they will simply stay put, pay up, or raise money to buy their own power source that will exclude them from the tax.

[legiteum]

2. It does not compare the average income of workers. Back when a Hershey bar only cost ten cents, the average worker only made two dollars a day. Today the average wage in the USA is over $250 per day.

That's what the image is trying to say: dollar value is dumping over long run as inflation keeps growing thanks to non-stop money printing policies.
Assuming your numbers are correct, two dollars a day was the wage when dollar hadn't dumped this much. Now that it is significantly dumped the employers are forced to to pay workers 125x higher wages!

And employers have 250x more money to pay them (etc.). Profits are at all-time highs right now, even adjusted for inflation. Our standard of living is the highest it's ever been.

Absolute inflation numbers are meaningless. What helps businesses is relative price stability, and for the past 40 years, with a break for a 100 year black swan even event with the pandemic, prices in the US have been very stable.

And the USA has succeeded through the pandemic better than almost any other country.

Prices are not back to normal, they're double... wages have not doubled.

No, prices have not "doubled". Not even close.

Unless you watch the partisan media, which would try to focus on one particular product in the market that has gone up in price due to some anomaly. If you look at a complicated product like a new car, and compare the same car for sale now and five years ago, prices have gone up perhaps 10% (even though the quality is marginally improved as well, reducing the long-term cost of the asset).

We sadly seem to have an entire political class who think its in our best interest that the American economy is terrible so they will win the next election. People should resist partisan rhetoric and look at the numbers--and their own outlook--themselves.

[larry_vw_1955]

There was a misunderstanding in it that you will pay even if you generate it yourself

the only person misunderstanding it seems to be you.

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity.

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/biden-resurrects-30-crypto-mining-tax-in-new-budget-proposal-202403121228

but that off-grid purchase definition is only when you buy it from another operator, in fact just how many minign farms are doing right now, by having a private offgrid contract with a powerplant.

that's a separate thing but the would still have to pay too:

Companies that produce or acquire power “off-grid” would also need to pay a 30% tax on the estimated costs of their electricity bills.

or are you saying the article i linked to is wrong?

And if anyone thinks this will be a disaster for mining in the US, those guys pay between 2- and 3 cents per kwh, this 30% increase would lead them to 4 cents per kwh at most, do you think they will pack their bags and go...where? Cause that would still be insanely cheaper compared to half of the world.
So they will simply stay put, pay up, or raise money to buy their own power source that will exclude them from the tax.

well if that's the case then the tax should be even higher as they could surely handle it.

And what, you think they can't track you if you go PoS?

no they really can't. not like they can with power usage.

Furthermore, it would take just a warrant and two major staking pools taken over and you've just granted one authority control over the coin, at least with farms they will need to keep them staffed, consuming power, replace gear, make somehow impossible for the others to get more gear so they can overpower the controlled one, with ETH for example you just go after lido and you have 30% of the staking eth, raid coinbase and kraken and you are close in for a majority!

then modify the proof of stake protocol so that everyone has an equal chance of being a validator.

[stompix]

Companies that produce or acquire power “off-grid” would also need to pay a 30% tax on the estimated costs of their electricity bills.
or are you saying the article i linked to is wrong?

The misunderstanding is in the companies that produce or buy it off-gird, the tax will be aimed at the companies that do that off-gird but are not limiting their production to the said mine, otherwise you would have nothing to tax since most large farms are directly connected to huge powerplants that have a direct contact with them. That's why the term particular is here:
" for example by using the output of a particular electricity generating plant,"

Also , a lot ignore the other thing, not only it's a proposal, but:

The proposal would be effective for taxable years beginning after December 31, 2024. The excise tax would be phased in over three years at a rate of 10 percent in the first year, 20 percent in the second, and 30 percent thereafter.

So till 2025, they will only pay 10%, again, considering the deals they have and the buy-back schemes, not a single one will leave.
They will pay up and that's that, compared to the halving a 10% on electricity will be nothing.

And look at the bright side, that might be a moment hobby miners might have a chance, how can a small guy compete with a huge farm that buys electricity at 2.5 cents per kwh and gets a 10-20% discount on buying MQO of 100 units?
And another bright side, wasn't everyone concerned that the US might gain a majority in the total hash rate (juts like China) and that it was bad for decentralization? Forced decentralization by everyone fleeing everywhere!

[larry_vw_1955]

The misunderstanding is in the companies that produce or buy it off-gird, the tax will be aimed at the companies that do that off-gird but are not limiting their production to the said mine, otherwise you would have nothing to tax since most large farms are directly connected to huge powerplants that have a direct contact with them. That's why the term particular is here:
" for example by using the output of a particular electricity generating plant,"

explain this statement:

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity.

put up solar panels to run your mine, you pay the tax. because you're generating your own electricity. that's what it says to me.

And look at the bright side, that might be a moment hobby miners might have a chance, how can a small guy compete with a huge farm that buys electricity at 2.5 cents per kwh and gets a 10-20% discount on buying MQO of 100 units?

that's not a bright side for the small guy. that kind of puts the small guy at a huge disadvantage. with this tax it makes it an even bigger one since they are getting taxed on 30% of 11 cent per kwh rather than just 2.5. so if you're for centralizing hash power in big mining farms then i guess you support this legislation.  

And another bright side, wasn't everyone concerned that the US might gain a majority in the total hash rate (juts like China) and that it was bad for decentralization? Forced decentralization by everyone fleeing everywhere!

maybe that is a bright side but putting small miners out of business is not one of them. goodbye to small miners if this thing passes either that or they become criminals for doing tax evasion. there shoud be alot of antminers being dumped on ebay if this thing passes.

[cryptosize]

The misunderstanding is in the companies that produce or buy it off-gird, the tax will be aimed at the companies that do that off-gird but are not limiting their production to the said mine, otherwise you would have nothing to tax since most large farms are directly connected to huge powerplants that have a direct contact with them. That's why the term particular is here:
" for example by using the output of a particular electricity generating plant,"

explain this statement:

The tax would also apply to crypto mining firms that generate their own electricity.

put up solar panels to run your mine, you pay the tax. because you're generating your own electricity. that's what it says to me.

And look at the bright side, that might be a moment hobby miners might have a chance, how can a small guy compete with a huge farm that buys electricity at 2.5 cents per kwh and gets a 10-20% discount on buying MQO of 100 units?

that's not a bright side for the small guy. that kind of puts the small guy at a huge disadvantage. with this tax it makes it an even bigger one since they are getting taxed on 30% of 11 cent per kwh rather than just 2.5. so if you're for centralizing hash power in big mining farms then i guess you support this legislation.  

And another bright side, wasn't everyone concerned that the US might gain a majority in the total hash rate (juts like China) and that it was bad for decentralization? Forced decentralization by everyone fleeing everywhere!

maybe that is a bright side but putting small miners out of business is not one of them. goodbye to small miners if this thing passes either that or they become criminals for doing tax evasion. there shoud be alot of antminers being dumped on ebay if this thing passes.

Some people are habitual contrarians... it's not just Franky who enjoys doing this.

It's asinine to claim that the US government imposes taxes to promote "decentralization" (next thing they're gonna tell you is China did the same back in May 2021 ), only an IQ 50 person would believe that. You make a good point about wholesale vs retail electricity prices/taxes.

Regarding taxes, let's keep in mind that every solar panel sold in the market requires you to pay sales tax/VAT, right?

I'll never understand why modern people say "that's just the way the system works, man, nothing I can do about it".

Need I remind you what ignited the American Revolution against Great Britain? Yeah, it was a tax issue and people didn't just ignore it... you could call them "tax evaders", I prefer to call them rebels.

My point is, you decide to bend over and take it in the ass, you deserve the worst behavior from the feds.

Stop being a lapdog and start being a wolf again, like your ancestors were.

[larry_vw_1955]

It's asinine to claim that the US government imposes taxes to promote "decentralization"

no one claimed that. but i think he was saying that decentralization would be a side affect of them doing that. which does kind of make sense if it results in an exodus of miners from the usa but what is decentralization really based on? geographical location or controlling party? i would say its the latter more than the former.

You make a good point about wholesale vs retail electricity prices/taxes.

i'm glad you agree with me that this would hurt the little guy more than the big guy. mom and pop miners will really be hit hard. i don't see how they would be able to survive.

Regarding taxes, let's keep in mind that every solar panel sold in the market requires you to pay sales tax/VAT, right?

yeah just on the initial purchase but not on the amount of electricity you generate every month. can you imagine if the government did THAT? charging you for any electricity you use no matter what it was for. adding on a 30% tax for that? why not? they're trying to do it for mining.

I'll never understand why modern people say "that's just the way the system works, man, nothing I can do about it".

because society is alot more complicated than it used to be. private companies operate prison facilities and stuff like that.

Need I remind you what ignited the American Revolution against Great Britain? Yeah, it was a tax issue and people didn't just ignore it... you could call them "tax evaders", I prefer to call them rebels.

rebels don't exist anymore. unless they are in jail. for a long time.

My point is, you decide to bend over and take it in the ass, you deserve the worst behavior from the feds.

Stop being a lapdog and start being a wolf again, like your ancestors were.

that's easy to say but society in the usa is too fragmented and complex to think or expect that anyone is going to organize and go up against the us government even on a city level to say nothing of federal. if the entire state of texas can't run the border down south like they want to what makes you think you can do anything you want to?

https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/22/texas-border-supreme-court-immigration/

[OgNasty]

His capital gains tax increases are pretty crazy as well. This is definitely something to keep an eye on. A lot of Bitcoin holders could be wise to sell in December if he is really going to more than double the capital gains tax. I don’t think he will and even if he did I think Trump will get in and reverse all Biden’s craziness. Still something to watch.

[Outhue]

30% of miners' electricity cost is not small.

I wish the people of America good luck 

If all you do is mine Bitcoin as a source of income, there is still enough time now to reconsider another country, but God has mercy on your soul if you are the type who loves his or her country.

The best time to mine Bitcoin is now and the value is still very good enough, after the coming halving the reward will be cut in  half, and maybe in a year and half, we will be in another bear market? It will be hard to keep mining when your electricity is making it harder and now taxes too.

[cryptosize]

yeah just on the initial purchase but not on the amount of electricity you generate every month. can you imagine if the government did THAT? charging you for any electricity you use no matter what it was for. adding on a 30% tax for that? why not? they're trying to do it for mining.

Basically they're trying to tax the Sun, which provides free energy for billions of years.

That's stupid beyond belief and whoever accepts it as the status quo deserves the worst as I said...

[larry_vw_1955]

Basically they're trying to tax the Sun, which provides free energy for billions of years.

That's stupid beyond belief and whoever accepts it as the status quo deserves the worst as I said...

the problem is, such a small percentage of people are going to be affected by this law in the usa that the voice of the miners is going to be so small as to be negligible. on the other hand, lets say biden was trying to tax uber/lyft drivers an additional 30% on their electricity use of their electric car well then that would be a different story. the drivers would raise a huge stink about that and a bazillion journalists would be writing stories on it like this was the gravest injustice ever known to man...

[headingnorth]

If Biden wants to lose the election this a great way to do it. 14% of Americans own crypto, with closer to 20% in states like California.

That is a significant voting block with crypto being a major topic of discussion in the presidential debates. The last thing Americans need are more taxes.

So sick of Biden. That is all he is good for is raising taxes on everyday working people.