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Alternate cryptocurrencies => Altcoin Discussion => Topic started by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 11:19:56 AM



Title: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 11:19:56 AM
Well, looks like this is pretty much dead courtesy of a >51% attack by Luke Jr. The more interesting features should in theory be available in Bitcoin eventually - including the removal of existing legacy Bitcoin addresses if Luke Jr gets his way (he was threatening to refuse to mine transactions using them). No idea when though and I certainly won't be developing the tools to make use of them.

Since there aren't quite enough shamefully Bitcoin-cloning cryptocurrencies out there yet, I'm launching another one - Coiledcoin. It has all the features you might expect from a modern Bitcoin clone, plus a handful more:

  • Merged mining and OP_EVAL support from the start
  • No legacy addresses. Anyone and anywhere that can pay to a Coiledcoin address can pay to one that requires signatures from multiple parties to spend, such as an escrow account or a business account requiring approval from two managers. It makes no difference to the sender - all addresses use OP_EVAL and look the same. (The infrastructure to spend these is fairly poor right now though.)
  • Block every 2 minutes on average, difficulty adjustment of up to 100% up/50% down every 720 blocks (nominally 24 hours), ArtForz timestamp exploit fixed.
  • 10 CLC reward per block initially, halving every 525000 blocks (nominally 2 years) until it reaches 1 CLC where it will remain forever. This is an inflationary coin, at least until you take coin loss into account.
  • Minimal 1337 50 CLC premine in the genesis block
  • Note that internally Coiledcoin addresses and transactions are formatted differently to normal Bitcoin clones. Do not use Bitcoin tools like vanitygen or PoolServerJ's workmaker support to create new addresses or transactions, and do not import keys with pywallet either. In theory you can safely use PoolServerJ for merged mining with Coiledcoin as an aux chain, just don't turn on workmaker for the Coiledcoin aux chain - it'll look like it works but the payouts will be unspendable.
  • More neat stuff (instant payments, light clients, possibly wallet protection services that require confirmation of large spends, etc) coming soon once I or someone else gets around to writing it.
  • Not sure what the initial difficulty will be yet, most likely 16

Download it from here
Windows release (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-win32-0.5.99.zip)
Windows installer (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-0.5.99-win32-setup.exe)
Linux release (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-linux-0.5.99.tar.gz)
Source code (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-src-0.5.99.tar.bz2)

Not sure if there'll be a pool available at the time of launch yet though. If not, once the difficulty rises and the block rate drops off you can use merged mining to solo mine it at the same time as mining Bitcoins on p2pool (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.0). In addition to those instructions, you need to set rpcuser, rpcpassword and server in coiledcoin.conf, run the Coiledcoin client, and when starting p2pool add "--merged-url http://127.0.0.1:8367/ --merged-userpass user:password" to the end of the p2pool command line. (Also, I'd recommend setting your RPC password to something stronger than "password" for security reasons!) Again, do not pooled mine on Coiledcoin with p2pool - it should stop you but payouts would be unspendable.

Edit: Apparently I'm not as 1337 as I thought; forgot to change the premine back from the rather smaller 50 CLC.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: maxcarjuzaa on January 05, 2012, 12:30:57 PM
Where is the client for linux? what miners can we use to mine your coin in linux?

Thank you


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on January 05, 2012, 01:10:16 PM
It's not linux we should be worrying about, it's windows.

OP, if you don't provide Windows binaries, there is no point in the alt chain.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 05, 2012, 01:15:53 PM
Exchange or it is useless.

When ?


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 01:16:00 PM
Where is the client for linux? what miners can we use to mine your coin in linux?

Thank you
There'll be source and clients for Windows and Linux once the chain actually officially launches; got the build process for them setup already. Any standard Bitcoin miner will work. This is a slightly rushed launch so I unfortunately don't have a public client out for a test version of the chain. (Obviously there's my private one which could in theory be released but it's probably not a good idea.)


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 05, 2012, 01:19:47 PM
Where is the client for linux? what miners can we use to mine your coin in linux?

Thank you
There'll be source and clients for Windows and Linux once the chain actually officially launches; got the build process for them setup already. Any standard Bitcoin miner will work. This is a slightly rushed launch so I unfortunately don't have a public client out for a test version of the chain. (Obviously there's my private one which could in theory be released but it's probably not a good idea.)

Fail ScamCoin altchain is fail.

We need the exchange to open ASAP. These will be worth 10 BTC each !

Buy, buy, buy !!!


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 01:24:49 PM
Fail ScamCoin altchain is fail.

We need the exchange to open ASAP. These will be worth 10 BTC each !

Buy, buy, buy !!!
Well, we'll see what happens - partly depends if anyone manages to launch any interesting services with it.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: caston on January 05, 2012, 02:23:30 PM
So what is OP_EVAL?

Do you plan to add support for Open Transactions?

It looks like i'll be a sleeping when this launches.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 03:36:10 PM
So what is OP_EVAL?
It's a way of letting you send to addresses that have more complicated restrictions on how the coins can then be spent - such as requiring signatures from multiple people or devices - without the sender having to worry about what the exact requirements are. It also makes it easier to, for example, set up an escrow arrangement where some coins can only be transferred either with the agreement of either the buyer and seller, or by the escrow agent and one of the two parties agreeing - so the escrow provider can't just run off with them. Sadly the tools to actually make this kind of escrow possible aren't quite ready yet.

There's a good technical description here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46538.0). It was originally going into Bitcoin, but I think they've pretty much abandoned it in favour of something similar which may or may not get enough support. It's all a tad messy on their end right now.

Do you plan to add support for Open Transactions?
Not really. That'd probably best be done externally by someone with more experience with Open Transactions, if at all.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on January 05, 2012, 03:41:43 PM
There's a good technical description here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46538.0).
It's receiver pays for fees too isn't it? Or did I misread somewhere?


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: kjlimo on January 05, 2012, 03:46:28 PM
Exchange or it is useless.

When ?

FALSE, if anything no exchange will give it a chance of actually being adopted before the pump & dumpers happens.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: kjlimo on January 05, 2012, 03:50:59 PM
I'll mine it if there's a pool available.

DoubleC, feel like adding another coin?  Or testing this coin in an alternative pool to start?  I would only point one GPU at it to start to help for testing.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Stokkie on January 05, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
Exchange or it is useless.

When ?

FALSE, if anything no exchange will give it a chance of actually being adopted before the pump & dumpers happens.

Well I would say trade from the start would prevent pump & dumping. If you wait for a while some are already sitting on tons of coins which makes your scenario possible. The more people mine/adopt this coin the better chance it has


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: kjlimo on January 05, 2012, 03:54:45 PM
Exchange or it is useless.

When ?

FALSE, if anything no exchange will give it a chance of actually being adopted before the pump & dumpers happens.

Well I would say trade from the start would prevent pump & dumping. If you wait for a while some are already sitting on tons of coins which makes your scenario possible. The more people mine/adopt this coin the better chance it has

I guess that's a fair statement.

My priority is pool first.... Exchanges second, so that I can pump & dump :)  haha


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 04:01:18 PM
It's receiver pays for fees too isn't it? Or did I misread somewhere?
In a way. The sender's side of the transaction is the same size no matter how complex the rules are - the actual script is only included when the transaction is spent, so the receiver pays any extra fees that result from them choosing to have more complex restrictions on how it can be spent.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 05:22:28 PM
OK, so this is somewhat later than originally anticipated, partly because of a slight last minute change and mostly because the Windows build is really slow, but it's out:

Windows release (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-win32-0.5.99.zip)
Windows installer (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-0.5.99-win32-setup.exe)
Linux release (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-linux-0.5.99.tar.gz)
Source code (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-src-0.5.99.tar.bz2)
 
The website is coming eventually.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 05, 2012, 05:25:44 PM
OK, so this is somewhat later than originally anticipated, partly because of a slight last minute change and mostly because the Windows build is really slow, but it's out:

Windows release (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-win32-0.5.99.zip)
Windows installer (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-0.5.99-win32-setup.exe)
Linux release (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-linux-0.5.99.tar.gz)
Source code (http://www.coiledcoin.org/downloads/coiledcoin-src-0.5.99.tar.bz2)
 
The website is coming eventually.


Logo ?


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 05:32:54 PM
Logo ?
There's a placeholder at www.coiledcoin.org but it really wants replacing.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on January 05, 2012, 06:15:22 PM
You can register accounts with Coiled Coin addresses at mmpool (http://mmpool.bitparking.com) and they'll start receiving coins once I've tested and enabled it.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Stokkie on January 05, 2012, 07:24:05 PM
Difficulty is up for the first time  :)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 05, 2012, 07:24:56 PM
Difficulty is up for the first time  :)

Yes mine all you can because they will go to $100 each !!!

Stop mining and supporting these ScamChains and their premined authors and support the real coin.

Wait, actually, keep mining this crap because less difficulty for BTC and me ::)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 07:25:16 PM
You can register accounts with Coiled Coin addresses at mmpool (http://mmpool.bitparking.com) and they'll start receiving coins once I've tested and enabled it.
Thank you, hopefully this ought to work OK. (The testing version of the chain was merged mined from the start, partly so I could work out some bugs with supporting multiple chains in some unrelated code, but obviously until the difficulty increases things will be a tad interesting.)

Also, it looks like I screwed up and changed the genesis block back to 50 CLCs at some point, then forgot to change it back. Oh well.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Mushroomized on January 05, 2012, 07:36:16 PM
I'll make you a cheesy pixel logo if you want


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Mushroomized on January 05, 2012, 07:58:51 PM
Too late already did
https://i.imgur.com/D4nRY.png
https://i.imgur.com/pfpov.png
If someone makes a better logo, I made this coil thing out of two c's like on the coin, it kind of looks like a spring

https://i.imgur.com/pAA7b.png


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 05, 2012, 08:09:41 PM
Hopefully this will be worth something soon, so far it seems I own 40% of all mined coins ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 05, 2012, 08:15:35 PM
Hopefully this will be worth something soon, so far it seems I own 40% of all mined coins ;)

Well IMHO this strategy of pump & dump worked for the first few scam coins but people learned and your crap coins are worth 0 right now. Good luck wasting more time and electricity.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 05, 2012, 08:16:39 PM
Hopefully this will be worth something soon, so far it seems I own 40% of all mined coins ;)

Well IMHO this strategy of pump & dump worked for the first few scam coins but people learned and your crap coins are worth 0 right now. Good luck wasting more time and electricity.

Haha, did litecoin bite your peepee ? Im not as stupid as you, I will only mine the crap out of coiledcoin during early diff and hold.



Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 05, 2012, 08:19:21 PM
Hopefully this will be worth something soon, so far it seems I own 40% of all mined coins ;)

Well IMHO this strategy of pump & dump worked for the first few scam coins but people learned and your crap coins are worth 0 right now. Good luck wasting more time and electricity.

Haha, did litecoin bite your peepee ? Im not as stupid as you, I will only mine the crap out of coiledcoin during early diff and hold.



Exactly what I am saying. That strategy used to work but now it does not. People realised that all the scam chains are just that : A BIG SCAM.

Just like Luke-Jr said : these scams are plot to steal BTC from the fools. Buy, buy, buy !!! It gonna rise to 0.01 BTC tomorrow !!!


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on January 05, 2012, 08:24:47 PM
Woah, is there an integrated LongPoll in this client?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 05, 2012, 08:35:02 PM
Woah, is there an integrated LongPoll in this client?

blocks come fast and not alot of people mining so alot less orphans than other altcoins had in early difficulty.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Stokkie on January 05, 2012, 09:49:21 PM
Pretty funny to see how 170Mhash/s mined 160coins and 300Mhash/s only 90 as both started at the same moment. Lots of luck involved :)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 05, 2012, 10:42:23 PM
Too late already did
https://i.imgur.com/D4nRY.png
Wow, that's actually quite a clever logo idea.

Hopefully this will be worth something soon, so far it seems I own 40% of all mined coins ;)
A big concentration you've got there, though I guess there's not much excitement about new altcoins anymore. To be honest I've no idea what's going to happen; exchanges weren't particularly high up the priority list compared to getting it out there and getting the tools for people to do interesting things with it.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 05, 2012, 11:04:42 PM
Is there any way to easily setup MERGED SOLO mining for Coiledcoin and Bitcoin without having to setup an entire pool for your own personal network ?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Remember remember the 5th of November on January 05, 2012, 11:48:29 PM
I hope an exchange pops up, soon.

Doublec?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: tiker on January 06, 2012, 12:03:00 AM
Well, I've set the client here.  Let's see how this one goes. :)

cTiaJemWUugaPueW7zfrCLcZJ1us6fAv6C

Just to point out, when the client is minimized in windows it's using the bitcoin client icon in the little task bar (near the clock) instead of the "C" icon used everywhere else.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bulanula on January 06, 2012, 12:15:41 AM
Yeah, I hit a block!....So...now what?   Does CLC provide a service or does any store accept them for anything  (What is the long-term plan to bootstrap it to a service\product)?    ....Or, do I wait for an exchange.

Typical pump and dump scheme. What is next scamcoin of the week ? SolidCoin 3 ?

LOL exchange opens at BTC-E.Com about 5hrs later after launch. WTF this is planned as heck pump and dump ? makom from russia / btc-e.com too ?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 06, 2012, 12:32:26 AM
LOL exchange opens at BTC-E.Com about 5hrs later after launch. WTF this is planned as heck pump and dump ?
Your guess is actually as good as mine on this one. Wasn't expecting anyone to set up an exchange this soon, they must have a lot of practice at it.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: drakahn on January 06, 2012, 12:34:48 AM
i would assume the rpc commands are the same, so i think most of the code would be copy paste

also there was a lot of chatter on the btc-e chatroom as soon as this thread was made (before the release)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Mousepotato on January 06, 2012, 01:22:09 AM
Ok so I got the client running and downloaded the block chain.  How do I start mining?  I tried running

Code:
coiledcoind.exe --url http://127.0.0.1:8333/ --userpass username:password

But I keep getting a "can't connect to server" or something. The port matches what I have in my coiledcoin.conf too.  Iono!



Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: drakahn on January 06, 2012, 01:26:48 AM
make coiledcoin.conf in its wallet dir

rpcport=port
rpcuser=user
rpcpassword=pass
rpcallowip=*
server=1

change port user and pass for your values, 8666 seems to work well for port

restart coiledcoin, point your miner at either 127.0.0.1:port or [the pc running the client local ip]:port


i have helped a few people through this and these instructions worked best, if i helped please donate to the address in my signiture


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: drakahn on January 06, 2012, 01:36:30 AM
also its a gpu coin and can use any miner bitcoin can

also i should point out http://mmpool.bitparking.com has coiledcoin in merged mining that is paying more than solo for me at least, but i am poor and don't have new hardware


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 05:29:14 AM
Difficulty is up for the first time  :)

Yes mine all you can because they will go to $100 each !!!

Stop mining and supporting these ScamChains and their premined authors and support the real coin.

Wait, actually, keep mining this crap because less difficulty for BTC and me ::)

Don't you are that guy that loves solidcoin?!


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on January 06, 2012, 05:29:54 AM
CoiledCoin now closed. Have a nice day.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 05:38:29 AM
CoiledCoin now closed. Have a nice day.

Why you did?!


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 05:44:12 AM
CoiledCoin now closed. Have a nice day.
Luke, you are a bible thumping RETARD. Burn in hell you pedophile.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: omo on January 06, 2012, 05:53:29 AM
Hopefully this will be worth something soon, so far it seems I own 40% of all mined coins ;)

what is your hashrate on mining CLC?
last night I used my 450MH GPU to mine but got nothing,
the cgminer report a few "rejected" messages, and continously report "new block found" messages


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: rTech on January 06, 2012, 05:54:22 AM
Luke, How does your users at Eligius pool feel about you misusing their hash power to vandalize and steal from an alt chain?

Yeah, thats the great question. All Eligius.st miners should abandon it cause its lead by fu**tard..

http://www.kclug.org/wiki/images/thumb/Luke_Jr0.jpg/450px-Luke_Jr0.jpg

Thats Luke


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
Luke, How does your users at Eligius pool feel about you misusing their hash power to vandalize and steal from an alt chain?

Oh my! Good question!

Luke have used the power from its users to hurt CLC?!?!?   +_+

All Eligius users should move to EclipseMC!!  ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on January 06, 2012, 05:58:07 AM
I have no sympathy for scammers.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 06:05:20 AM
I have no sympathy for scammers.

You didn't get CLC... Right?!

It could be just a experience on how a new features like OP_EVAL could work in Bitcoin...

You just mess up with a possibly great experience...

CLC author... You should have announced the launch well in advance of the CLC, so people had time to prepare ... And avoid a fool like the Lord Luke-junior.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 06:13:46 AM
It would have perhaps been more interesting if Luke didn't disclose his identity here or that he was blowing things up. I wonder how long it would have even taken people to notice.

Part of the role that just born altchains serve is helping us learn about the risks, limitations, strengths, and weaknesses of these blockchain cryptocoin systems.

And it now sounds like we have a great chance here how to figure out how to combat a >50% attacker who is denying transactions—  but fortunately before there where many suckers^wpeople who sunk a lot of hard earned money into it.

I'm pretty sympathetic to the scam charge.  Exchange support and trading on day zero? Really??

Touting features that had been introduced to mainline bitcoin, developed and QAed entirely by other people, but just not made it through QA into release yet as big advances?  Really??

I think most of the altchains are really failing our collective community— they're contributing almost no innovation. The biggest contribution from most of them (NMC excluded, and maybe one (or half of one) more) is the little bit of learning we can achieve from their corpses.

In any case, if this were an image board I'd have one of those epic popcorn eating images. You've got to admit that this is pretty interesting.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 06:18:40 AM
Yeap... A 51% is pretty hard to do against strong CryptoCurrencies like Bitcoin but, if someone do, bye bye...
So, if half of the world loose its electricity for a couple days, Bitcoin [probably] is over.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: drakahn on January 06, 2012, 06:33:31 AM
i am sure luke has broken some law (At least civil) here


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 06:43:29 AM
i am sure luke has broken some law (At least civil) here

By using the chain as designed but simply electing to not process any transactions?

On a cryptocurrency that had only existed for a couple hours, which no one legitimately depended on, and which no one could demonstrate any real loss from? Good luck with a civil claim there.

When someone with a lot of hash power mines a cryptocurrency are they prohibited from turning off and leaving the difficulty sky high?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: deepceleron on January 06, 2012, 06:53:59 AM
One thing that wasn't changed: longest chain wins. If attacker can start at block 0 and get ahead of all that has been mined by the rest, poof, your generated coins are gone.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Mousepotato on January 06, 2012, 06:57:27 AM
So is this chain dead already?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Sp0tter on January 06, 2012, 07:06:16 AM
Can you please put the linux source code on github :)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: drakahn on January 06, 2012, 07:06:32 AM
no, it was a short attack by a small minded individual, this coin is a good one to bet on still


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on January 06, 2012, 07:11:17 AM
Can you please put the linux source code on github :)
https://github.com/makomk/coiledcoin


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 07:45:56 AM
this coin is a good one to bet on still

I misread that as "con" and thought it was a surprisingly honest post. ;)

The vitriol should go down a notch here. As far as I can tell no actual transactions have been reversed. Just orphaning (er, which is what you should expect with blocks coming every 10 seconds, unfriendly funnybusiness or not .  And even still, not orphaning deep enough to have invalidated any spendable coins— which is what the maturity limit is for after all.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Sp0tter on January 06, 2012, 07:59:09 AM
Added CLC to http://allchains.info for the hash rate and difficulty estimates.  (Should be accurate, but I will need a couple days to check over it.)


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: deepceleron on January 06, 2012, 08:02:04 AM
this coin is a good one to bet on still

I misread that as "con" and thought it was a surprisingly honest post. ;)

The vitriol should go down a notch here. As far as I can tell no actual transactions have been reversed. Just orphaning (er, which is what you should expect with blocks coming every 10 seconds, unfriendly funnybusiness or not .  And even still, not orphaning deep enough to have invalidated any spendable coins— which is what the maturity limit is for after all.


There is no limit to how far back coins can get zapped. At the launch of i0coin, I had 300-confirmation generates go pooof.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: lightlord on January 06, 2012, 08:20:16 AM
http://s10.postimage.org/csqwvwcpx/i0coin32_X32.pnghttp://s10.postimage.org/lcaatnl2d/i0coin64_X64.pnghttp://s10.postimage.org/ni4lo5oit/i0coin128_X128.png http://s9.postimage.org/nk65flt5b/i05_Updatedagainfinal3.png

Just to show I am capable of making coins for other currencies, this one already represents i0coin, but i0coin turned out to not be successful as I thought. I can Make a CLC coin, if I was offered a bounty, in CLC and some btc.

This is what is there atm, not mine. http://www.coiledcoin.org/
I can improve upon its design if the price is right.

And I had many other designs, but this was voted, If price is right, I will do the same thing, make 4 basic designs, have a vote on it, then make 4 font designs then have another vote, Combine design with font, add touch up which is what I did for i0coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36425.1520

Then Once its finished then make a 32X32, 64X64,128X128, 256X256, and fullXfull logo, Small can be used for the icon, bigger for webpage, etc.

Best regards
lightlord



Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 09:40:01 AM
There is no limit to how far back coins can get zapped. At the launch of i0coin, I had 300-confirmation generates go pooof.

Yes, but luke intentionally did not do that. And on new and volatile high rate coins, you can naturally expect a lot of orphans.

The purpose of the maturity limit is so that people can't lose money they actually had control over without a really big split. Luke could have created a deep fork, but didn't, because contrary to claims here: he's not a thief or a scammer.


Title: Re: Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: iddo on January 06, 2012, 10:05:58 AM
So what is OP_EVAL?
It's a way of letting you send to addresses that have more complicated restrictions on how the coins can then be spent - such as requiring signatures from multiple people or devices - without the sender having to worry about what the exact requirements are. It also makes it easier to, for example, set up an escrow arrangement where some coins can only be transferred either with the agreement of either the buyer and seller, or by the escrow agent and one of the two parties agreeing - so the escrow provider can't just run off with them. Sadly the tools to actually make this kind of escrow possible aren't quite ready yet.

There's a good technical description here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46538.0). It was originally going into Bitcoin, but I think they've pretty much abandoned it in favour of something similar which may or may not get enough support. It's all a tad messy on their end right now.

My understanding is that OP_EVAL is being added to Bitcoin without risk of forking the blockchain, because Satoshi envisioned it in advance and therefore the code that old nodes run already supports it, just not as a standard transaction (this means that unless they upgrade they will not include OP_EVAL transactions in blocks they generate, but still they will verify blocks that others generate with OP_EVAL transactions inside as conforming with the protocol, right?)

The Bitcoin QA for OP_EVAL is about making sure that the scripting language isn't too strong to allow DOS attacks on the network?
If what I'm saying isn't accurate then someone please correct me.

makomk, please elaborate on your last comment that I'm quoting here? If you have good intentions, you wouldn't want to create the perception that you're deceiving people by creating a cryptocoin with new features while in reality it's redundant, i.e. please explain what's the point of this new altcoin given that OP_EVAL is being phased in to Bitcoin?


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 06, 2012, 10:52:00 AM
I'm pretty sympathetic to the scam charge.  Exchange support and trading on day zero? Really??
Apparently BTC-E can set up a new exchange quite quickly, though I still have no idea how they found out about Coiledcoin in the first place. Developing the tools to do interesting things with OP_EVAL and suitable lightweight clients is a bit slower and fairly pointless unless there's some way to actually process transactions.

Touting features that had been introduced to mainline bitcoin, developed and QAed entirely by other people, but just not made it through QA into release yet as big advances?  Really??
Last time I looked, the Bitcoin developers and pool owners were bickering over the details of how to actually implement these features. Also, you're forgetting that in the process of developing this I found and reported an easy remotely-exploitable node crashing bug in one of those features "QAed entirely by other people".

And it now sounds like we have a great chance here how to figure out how to combat a >50% attacker who is denying transactions—  but fortunately before there where many suckers^wpeople who sunk a lot of hard earned money into it.
I'd basically already come to the conclusion that all the approaches usually proposed were wildly unrealistic even for something with as much support as Bitcoin.

My understanding is that OP_EVAL is being added to Bitcoin without risk of forking the blockchain, because Satoshi envisioned it in advance and therefore the code that old nodes run already supports it, just not as a standard transaction (this means that unless they upgrade they will not include OP_EVAL transactions in blocks they generate, but still they will verify blocks that others generate with OP_EVAL transactions inside as conforming with the protocol, right?)
Sort of. OP_EVAL was in the process of being added to Bitcoin by having new nodes include verified OP_EVAL transactions into blocks but without bothering to verify that existing uses of OP_EVAL inside blocks are actually valid until the switch-over date. So basically, until switch-over malicious miners can spend OP_EVAL transactions that they shouldn't be able to. However, its not safe to switch it on until much more than 50% of the mining power understand OP_EVAL and they must all turn it on at once. Last time I looked the Bitcoin network was nowhere near achieving this.

However, OP_EVAL is being abandoned by Bitcoin in favour of something incompatible and more limited called "pay to script hash" that requires going through that process again, and I'm not sure the replacement will get as much support from pools. Also, luke-jr's pushing for a legacy-free variant of that similar to what I'm using for Coiledcoin and has been threatening to refuse to mine normal Bitcoin transactions after the turn-on date for P2SH, which will make it harder to spend Bitcoins from pre-P2SH addresses. It's all a bit political.


Title: Re: [RELEASED] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: btc-e.com on January 06, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
Started trading in currency Coiledcoin

https://btc-e.com/exchange/clc_btc


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: cablepair on January 06, 2012, 12:42:38 PM
Please refer your comments and questions to the open letter to Luke-JR

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56830.0


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 06, 2012, 01:21:58 PM
Luke-JR should just go drink a cup of virgin mary blood and whip his religious anorexic body.

Seriously, so now its fairgame that Luke-JR decided he doesnt approve of a fork and mines on his pool destroying it ? You Luke are a piece of shit.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: xurious on January 06, 2012, 01:40:58 PM
Luke-JR should just go drink a cup of virgin mary blood and whip his religious anorexic body.

Seriously, so now its fairgame that Luke-JR decided he doesnt approve of a fork and mines on his pool destroying it ? You Luke are a piece of shit.

Not just A fork, any fork.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 06, 2012, 01:52:10 PM
Luke-JR should just go drink a cup of virgin mary blood and whip his religious anorexic body.

Seriously, so now its fairgame that Luke-JR decided he doesnt approve of a fork and mines on his pool destroying it ? You Luke are a piece of shit.

Not just A fork, any fork.

"a fork" is actually plural unlike "an fork" ;)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 06, 2012, 02:07:26 PM
Seriously, so now its fairgame that Luke-JR decided he doesnt approve of a fork and mines on his pool destroying it ? You Luke are a piece of shit.

If it's true, this is disgusting. I hope enough noise is made about this fact so that he loses most of his miners. You have to be a sort of crook to tolerate your mining power being used to attack small projects like this.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 02:24:52 PM
The more interesting features should in theory be available in Bitcoin eventually - including the removal of existing legacy Bitcoin addresses if Luke Jr gets his way (he was threatening to refuse to mine transactions using them). No idea when though and I certainly won't be developing the tools to make use of them.

Woah, you're making it sound like you wrote any of that to begin with. As far as I could tell, your contribution to CoiledCoin was primarily rebranding (and the marketing of it as an altcoin).  The more interesting features should be available in bitcoin because thats where you got them from.  Luke wrote more of CoiledCoin than you did.  I'd repeat the github link to the source, but you've had it taken down.

(Though, yes, sorry for not crediting you with finding the AreInputsStandard bug. Since you reported it privately and gavin just fixed it, it wasn't super-apparent— the the QA of someone using the functionality is very much helpful.)

You're misrepresenting Luke's position wrt legacy transactions, which pretty much shows how little you've actually been following the discussion. Luke has been against P2SH, though after a lot of discussion he came around to the position that if there would only be P2SH in an hypothetical future bitcoin replacement that he'd support pushing to that behavior because it cuts down spam.

I'll part by quoting another popular pool operator on the subject: "Wow, luke defended users from the new altchain while I was sleeping :)" People here who are irritated that they won't get to make-money-fast on a new altchain should realize that most bitcoin users will not share their outrage.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: CoinHunter on January 06, 2012, 02:53:12 PM
It goes to show it's not only Luke-jR behind the attacks but a few "bitcoin people" who pool their resources together. GG, TBX, LiteCoin and now CoiledCoin. They continue to attack all the alt coins in an attempt to discredit them. Pretty funny they keep trying to attack SC and get nowhere.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 03:00:16 PM
Well ain't that special so have you guys formed the committee yet to decide just what coins are allowed to exists so they don't taint the sainted holy bitcoins...

So?  Fight back.  Fix your technology.  Raise enough BTC to pay two or three small bitcoin pools which are together larger than luke to incentivize them to merge mine this coin.  Had this been done— hell— had this been announced in advance of going live,  then it wouldn't have been vulnerable to this attack.   

Altchains like this are vulnerable because they have no value, especially initially... Merged mining takes effort to set up— contribute to making it cheaper— otherwise only people who are looking to ponzi a new coin or are looking to burn it down have much incentive to join it.  A little payment money for mining would go a long way to tiping the incentives towards cooperating rather than defecting against it.

If you're going to be an altchain you should innovate— not just copy bitcoin code. Here is a chance.

I'm laughing at CH's claims— as if SC weren't the most repeatedly exploited coin of them all. That it says around at all speaks to the amazing power of hope. Sadly, things don't seem to change. :)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 06, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
I'll part by quoting another popular pool operator on the subject: "Wow, luke defended users from the new altchain while I was sleeping :)" People here who are irritated that they won't get to make-money-fast on a new altchain should realize that most bitcoin users will not share their outrage.
For the record, the pool owner in question is Tycho and the pool he owns is Deepbit, which controls between 40% and 50%+ of all Bitcoin mining power. It's basically Bitcoin or bust from here on out.

Woah, you're making it sound like you wrote any of that to begin with. As far as I could tell, your contribution to CoiledCoin was primarily rebranding (and the marketing of it as an altcoin).  The more interesting features should be available in bitcoin because thats where you got them from.  Luke wrote more of CoiledCoin than you did.
They should be available in Bitcoin given that's where they came from originally, but they're not and it's not clear they will be any time soon, which is the whole reason I launched CoiledCoin in the first place.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: CoinHunter on January 06, 2012, 03:04:44 PM
I'm laughing at CH's claims— as if SC weren't the most repeatedly exploited coin of them all. That it says around at all speaks to the amazing power of hope. Sadly, things don't seem to change. :)

Yah right. The only chain to not be attacked and have months of operation behind it. Keep crying and trying to shift the focus on not what SolidCoin fixes over BTC but instead some philosophical debate on "why it's evil and Bitcoin is good".

There is only one future cryptocoin and it isn't Bitcoin. The sad thing is you already know it, you just can't "Fully accept it yet". Give it a few months. You and the others will see.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
There is only one future cryptocoin and it isn't Bitcoin. The sad thing is you already know it, you just can't "Fully accept it yet". Give it a few months. You and the others will see.

Why would I use solidcoin over paypal?  Both are centrally controlled systems of exchange subject to unilateral whim.  At least if paypal screws me I know where to track them down and can take them to court.  ::shrugs::


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 03:07:50 PM
They should be available in Bitcoin given that's where they came from originally, but they're not and it's not clear they will be any time soon, which is the whole reason I launched CoiledCoin in the first place.

They're not yet because it takes time to do things right, but there is no evidence that they won't be.  We can see here what can result from not taking the time to do things right.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: CoinHunter on January 06, 2012, 03:09:02 PM
Why would I use solidcoin over paypal?  Both are centrally controlled systems of exchange subject to unilateral whim.  At least if paypal screws me I know where to track them down and can take them to court.  ::shrugs::

Again with the FUD. You know what SolidCoin is but have the "PR spiel" all ready that is completely different from the truth. Whether you want to admit it to yourself or not, the Bitcoin is the titanic and you're playing the violin.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 06, 2012, 03:10:17 PM
They're not yet because it takes time to do things right, but there is no evidence that they won't be.  We can see here what can result from not taking the time to do things right.
In that case, I'm sure you'll figure everything out by yourselves. Good luck.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 06, 2012, 03:32:32 PM
Until it is proven that the supposedly tried-and-true bitcoin code can actually work and survive with only the absolute minimum changes needed to form a separate blockchain, such as default port and connect handshake, proposing revolutionary changes, innovations, "advancements" seems possibly premature.

It actually is starting to look as if bitcoin itself is fundamentally flawed, since it is not itself at all immune to exactly the kinds of overly rich, even if on other people's resources, religious fanatics that societies that try to use currency in lieu of, and possibly even as an attempt to ameliorate or avoid, violence, warfare, dictatorship and so on, seem so good at aquiring as enemies. How hard would it be for any other Ayatollah to do to bitcoin what the bitcoin Ayatollah's are able to do even to chains that are pretty much identical to bitcoin itself?

Apparently bitcoin is not a tool of freedom at all, just another tool for concentrating power in the hands of whatever fanatics choose to abuse it.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: CoinHunter on January 06, 2012, 03:33:05 PM
Well aren't you assholes so smug now you think you have gotten away with your scumbag move, well karma is a bitch who will come back to haunt you and I for one can't wait to see it do so, hell almost makes me want that piece of shits SC to succeed and kill BTC off.

It's why your idea of "playing nice" with these people would never work. Makomk never did anything wrong to these people and they raped his coin like a child bride. They only care about one thing, which is why you need to take a harsh stance towards them from the very beginning.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: CoinHunter on January 06, 2012, 03:34:53 PM
Until it is proven that the supposedly tried-and-true bitcoin code can actually work and survive with only the absolute minimum changes needed to form a separate blockchain, sich as default port and connect handshake, proposing revolutionary changes, innovations, "advancements" seems possibly premature.

It actually is starting to look as if bitcoin itself is fundamentally flawed, since it is not itself at all immune to exactly the kinds of overly rich, even if on other people's resources, religious fanatics that societies that try to use currency in lieu of, and possibly even as an attempt to ameliorate or avoid, violence, warfare, dictatorship and so on, seem so good at aquiring as enemies. How hard would it be for any other Ayatollah to do to bitcoin what the bitcoin Ayatollah's are able to do even to chains that are pretty much identical do bitcoin itself?

-MarkM-

This is why we abandoned SC1 (mostly bitcoin code) and rewrote it to fix most of the glaring holes (SC2). You are right that Bitcoin is just as vulnerable, it's just a matter of scale. Luke-Jr and his cronies can take down small chains right now, guys with a few million can do it to Bitcoin if they wanted.

SolidCoin is the only secure cryptocurrency available right now.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 03:52:38 PM
.....hell almost makes me want ....... SC to succeed and kill BTC off.
I for one, am all for that as well. It's funny how after months of reading posts written by the BTC Gods, against RS/CH/whatever...that I FINALLY find myself able to understand his frustration and views on Bitcoin and the project as a whole.

Up till yesterday, I simply thought he had a bad attitude, although I always saw merit in his skills and continuously posed questions such as "If he could keep his Ego in check, don't you think BTC would be better WITH HIM, rather than without him, leaving him as a competitor rather than a contributor ?".

Well, now I know that is not possible, because there is only so much room at the head of the 'BTC Table' as it were......and regardless of how big RS/CH's Ego is, it still pales in comparison to some others in this community. Atleast he codes and runs a project. WTF does everyone else do, that is of great consequence, or that can compare to what he does solo ?

If I had to deal with all of the douche-nozzles on a constant basis, putting down MY work, then begging me for bug fixes prior to them going public, as to not exploit BTC.....I'D BE PISSED OFF ALL THE TIME TOO.

I can't wait to start mining SC.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 06, 2012, 04:01:04 PM
Taking down bitcoin could maybe be paid for with bitcoins. It might just take some seed capital to throw together 51%+ hashing farm, which could then pay for itself plus make profit plus bring down bitcoin once the desired / targetted profit has been made.

-MarkM-



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
Taking down bitcoin could maybe be paid for with bitcoins. It might just take some seed capital to throw together 51%+ hashing farm, which could then pay for itself plus make profit plus bring down bitcoin once the desired / targetted profit has been made.

-MarkM-


OR, we could all simply subsidize miners with additional BTC/USD and coax them into mining at Deepbit......


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 04:06:29 PM
I'm not going that far to start mining but it certainly is hard to see any difference in the scummyness of both at the moment..
Isn't it a little easier now to better understand Coinhunter's frustration ? ...and views of the Bitcoin project ?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Explodicle on January 06, 2012, 04:11:06 PM
How hard would it be for any other Ayatollah to do to bitcoin what the bitcoin Ayatollah's are able to do even to chains that are pretty much identical to bitcoin itself?

It would be much, much harder to do a 51% attack on Bitcoin. The only reason this attack was even possible was because of merged mining from a major pool; there is no bigger hashing network than Bitcoin that one could leverage in such a way.

We can launch a cryptocurrency wrong and watch it fail every day of the week. I could make a plane that doesn't fly, too. Does that mean we must abandon planes?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
How hard would it be for any other Ayatollah to do to bitcoin what the bitcoin Ayatollah's are able to do even to chains that are pretty much identical to bitcoin itself?

It would be much, much harder to do a 51% attack on Bitcoin. The only reason this attack was even possible was because of merged mining from a major pool; there is no bigger hashing network than Bitcoin that one could leverage in such a way.

We can launch a cryptocurrency wrong and watch it fail every day of the week. I could make a plane that doesn't fly, too. Does that mean we must abandon planes?
Well, as much as he cried and whined about Litecoin being another scamcoin, it seems safe from his exploits, as he doesn't have the power or resources to attack it the same way as Coiledcoin.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 06, 2012, 04:19:37 PM
Give up on planes/flight?

Not at all. We should launch hundreds, or dozens, of identical planes until we find out how many we can in fact keep in the air, then we will know how many innovation test-tubes we have available for innovating among so can compare that number to the number of innovations we'd like to try in order to determine whether we have enough to try one innovation per or will have to put more than one innovation into each slot in order to get all the innovations out there in a secured chain to see how they fly.

But if we cannot even just get a dozen or few identical clones secured there's no point worrying about so called "innovation".

Maybe its just the age old war of neophobes versus neophiles being played out yet again?

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Mushroomized on January 06, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
Well that was quick


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
This is why we abandoned SC1 (mostly bitcoin code) and rewrote it to fix most of the glaring holes (SC2). You are right that Bitcoin is just as vulnerable, it's just a matter of scale. Luke-Jr and his cronies can take down small chains right now, guys with a few million can do it to Bitcoin if they wanted.

SolidCoin is the only secure cryptocurrency available right now.

LOC wise the SC code is something like 99% bitcoin code, be realistic here.  And these great rewrites all added security vulnerabilities like the trust block rebindings.

"Secure" depends on your definition of secure. If people think that cryptocurrencies ought to be decentralized, which was the point of bitcoin of course, then SC2 is not secure at all.  Of course, bitcoin has centralization problems now due to big pools— though there is a fix for that maturing nicely. ... if you don't care about decentralization at all then SC2 is a pretty poor implementation of one:   The POW hashchain stuff exists purely to have a decentralized decision. It's a fairly inefficient approach compared to e.g. just having trusted nodes sign transaction records.

What the current percentage of newly mined SC's which are diverted to your 'protection' account? I haven't been keeping up with all the forced changes made possible by the central control of SC.

Well aren't you assholes so smug now you think you have gotten away with your scumbag move, well karma is a bitch who will come back to haunt you and I for one can't wait to see it do so, hell almost makes me want that piece of shits SC to succeed and kill BTC off.

Do you usually call people who disagree with you a scumbag?

But if we cannot even just get a dozen or few identical clones secured there's no point worrying about so called "innovation".

Identical is a liability, not an asset.  Taking the pre-release version of bitcoin and slapping a few tweaks (and far from enough, in fact) and a new name on it creates something which is pretty valueless.  Decentralized systems depend on their users perceiving them as valable in order to expend resources contributing to the system instead of ignoring it, or using resources to make sure it doesn't distract attention from the established cryptocoins.

The more different your system is the more likely it is on both technical and economic reasons to survive and find its niche; the more it's just a stupid ripoff of something else exploiting the liberal licensing to make an identical clone the less likely.   Even the SC2 folks know this: They restrictively licensed their fork of the bitcoin code because they knew that something just like SC2 but run with people with better reputation, or executed with slightly more intelligence (e.g. centralization that really did go away in a meaningful way as it grew) would replace them overnight.







Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Raoul Duke on January 06, 2012, 04:27:57 PM
WTF is wrong with this forum?

So when BCX did it all was good because he was attacking Solidcoin and you didn't like Coinhunter but now you all get pissed off because someone else did it to CoiledCoin?
Talk about duality of criteria...


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 06, 2012, 04:36:50 PM
The more different your system is the more likely it is on both technical and economic reasons to survive and find its niche; the more it's just a stupid ripoff of something else exploiting the liberal licensing to make an identical clone the less likely.   Even the SC2 folks know this: They restrictively licensed their fork of the bitcoin code because they knew that something just like SC2 but run with people with better reputation, or executed with slightly more intelligence (e.g. centralization that really did go away in a meaningful way as it grew) would replace them overnight.

I think the folk whose major innovation was to be that someone would actually "back" the currency to provide price stability and to ensure it actually has value from the start have mostly chosen the "centralisation can go away later" route. Start with Open Transactions, don't bother to move to a blockchain format until transaction volume is sufficient to support "miners" without needing to have "miners" mint coins.

They had hoped merged mining would allow quite a number of chains to be secured quite easily and rapidly, but didn't really put all plans on hold to wait for it, instead they pushed me to get Open Transactions up and running.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 04:37:30 PM
blah...blah...blah...
gmaxwell .....
Why was My thread in regards to "Pool Ops being the new Alt Coin Police" DELETED from the Pools Forum ?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 06, 2012, 04:43:14 PM
Here's a fun exercise by the way: figure out what flaw in Bitcoin's implementation of OP_EVAL this code (http://pastebin.ca/2100481) triggers, and if you've got a copy of the Coiledcoin source take a look at how it fixes it. (Only just got around to looking into this properly.) For bonus points, can you guess why Luke Jr is really lucky I don't hold a grudge?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 04:52:25 PM
So it looks like he deleted my thread and then went offline.

If this is the case, it's a complete miss use of MOD powers and the Forum Staff should strongly reconsider his status as a MOD.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Bobnova on January 06, 2012, 04:53:53 PM
WTF is wrong with this forum?

So when BCX did it all was good because he was attacking Solidcoin and you didn't like Coinhunter but now you all get pissed off because someone else did it to CoiledCoin?
Talk about duality of criteria...

BEX did it (assuming he really did) by himself.

LukeJr used a bunch of other people in his pool.
That's a pretty big difference IMO.

They're both scum though.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Mushroomized on January 06, 2012, 05:05:58 PM
How do I withdraw my CLC compensation from mmpool if I didnt register my ID with a btc address?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 05:09:15 PM
Until it is proven that the supposedly tried-and-true bitcoin code can actually work and survive with only the absolute minimum changes needed to form a separate blockchain, sich as default port and connect handshake, proposing revolutionary changes, innovations, "advancements" seems possibly premature.

It actually is starting to look as if bitcoin itself is fundamentally flawed, since it is not itself at all immune to exactly the kinds of overly rich, even if on other people's resources, religious fanatics that societies that try to use currency in lieu of, and possibly even as an attempt to ameliorate or avoid, violence, warfare, dictatorship and so on, seem so good at aquiring as enemies. How hard would it be for any other Ayatollah to do to bitcoin what the bitcoin Ayatollah's are able to do even to chains that are pretty much identical do bitcoin itself?

-MarkM-

This is why we abandoned SC1 (mostly bitcoin code) and rewrote it to fix most of the glaring holes (SC2). You are right that Bitcoin is just as vulnerable, it's just a matter of scale. Luke-Jr and his cronies can take down small chains right now, guys with a few million can do it to Bitcoin if they wanted.

SolidCoin is the only secure cryptocurrency available right now.

No one believes in you.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 05:16:24 PM
blah...blah...blah...
gmaxwell .....
Why was My thread in regards to "Pool Ops being the new Alt Coin Police" DELETED from the Pools Forum ?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 05:17:37 PM
blah...blah...blah...
gmaxwell .....
Why was My thread in regards to "Pool Ops being the new Alt Coin Police" DELETED from the Pools Forum ?

Post it again somewhere else...


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: dree12 on January 06, 2012, 05:18:29 PM
Until it is proven that the supposedly tried-and-true bitcoin code can actually work and survive with only the absolute minimum changes needed to form a separate blockchain, sich as default port and connect handshake, proposing revolutionary changes, innovations, "advancements" seems possibly premature.

It actually is starting to look as if bitcoin itself is fundamentally flawed, since it is not itself at all immune to exactly the kinds of overly rich, even if on other people's resources, religious fanatics that societies that try to use currency in lieu of, and possibly even as an attempt to ameliorate or avoid, violence, warfare, dictatorship and so on, seem so good at aquiring as enemies. How hard would it be for any other Ayatollah to do to bitcoin what the bitcoin Ayatollah's are able to do even to chains that are pretty much identical do bitcoin itself?

-MarkM-
This is why we abandoned SC1 (mostly bitcoin code) and rewrote it to fix most of the glaring holes (SC2). You are right that Bitcoin is just as vulnerable, it's just a matter of scale. Luke-Jr and his cronies can take down small chains right now, guys with a few million can do it to Bitcoin if they wanted.

SolidCoin is the only secure cryptocurrency available right now.
Coinhunter, advertising in the Bitcoin community has done little to help your cause. It is the divide between ideology that is killing Solidcoin now. Imagine advertising atheism in a church, or socialism in the US congress. Solidcoin would be done much good if instead you chose to listen and take the suggestions of Solidcoin community members, who have all pushed for more openness, to heart.

Whatever benifits Solidcoin offers are overshadowed by the problems with Solidcoin's internal community right now. Deal with civil unrest before invading other territories.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: exahash on January 06, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
Am I the only one who sees the attack on CLC as (an illegal) DOS?

At a minimum, alt chains are a playground/proving ground for new features that may (or may not) be worthwhile for inclusion in Bitcoin proper.  Regardless of any monetary value in those chains, they provide the community with the opportunity to experiment and try out new ideas.  Attacking and destroying something just because you don't like it and you can is wrong.  

DOS attacks are against the law (criminal and civil in the US).  We can't sit around and let people get away with DOS'ing new chains just because they're new.  I hope those responsible start getting prosecuted.





Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitlane on January 06, 2012, 05:31:19 PM
Am I the only one who sees the attack on CLC as (an illegal) DOS?

At a minimum, alt chains are a playground/proving ground for new features that may (or may not) be worthwhile for inclusion in Bitcoin proper.  Regardless of any monetary value in those chains, they provide the community with the opportunity to experiment and try out new ideas.  Attacking and destroying something just because you don't like it and you can is wrong.  

DOS attacks are against the law (criminal and civil in the US).  We can't sit around and let people get away with DOS'ing new chains just because they're new.  I hope those responsible start getting prosecuted.


With enough complaints to Luke's ISP, I am sure something can be done......after all, just because his immediate connection wasn't responsible for teh attack, he used that connection to orchestrate a large scale attack using remote computers at his disposal.....like a BOTNET OP.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: 2112 on January 06, 2012, 06:16:25 PM
Well ain't that special so have you guys formed the committee yet to decide just what coins are allowed to exists so they don't taint the sainted holy bitcoins...

So?  Fight back.  Fix your technology.  Raise enough BTC to pay two or three small bitcoin pools which are together larger than luke to incentivize them to merge mine this coin.  Had this been done— hell— had this been announced in advance of going live,  then it wouldn't have been vulnerable to this attack.   

Altchains like this are vulnerable because they have no value, especially initially... Merged mining takes effort to set up— contribute to making it cheaper— otherwise only people who are looking to ponzi a new coin or are looking to burn it down have much incentive to join it.  A little payment money for mining would go a long way to tiping the incentives towards cooperating rather than defecting against it.

If you're going to be an altchain you should innovate— not just copy bitcoin code. Here is a chance.

I'm laughing at CH's claims— as if SC weren't the most repeatedly exploited coin of them all. That it says around at all speaks to the amazing power of hope. Sadly, things don't seem to change. :)
I'm doing a full quote of gmaxwell's post to try to preserve it for posterity.

I like it the most where he came up with "tiping the incentives" as an euphemism for extortion.

Luke-Jr has a very stilted writing style. gmaxwell is a world-class copy-writer.

We used to joke about "mining cartel". But now we have "mining mafia" consolidating the control of their territory. Forget about doing a collection for Max Keiser to shoot a short about Bitcoin. We should do a round of fund-raising to induce F.F.Coppola to direct and produce a "Godminer" triptych.  ;)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Explodicle on January 06, 2012, 06:20:55 PM
But if we cannot even just get a dozen or few identical clones secured there's no point worrying about so called "innovation".

Maybe its just the age old war of neophobes versus neophiles being played out yet again?

-MarkM-

I bet we probably could get plenty of Bitcoin clones running like you describe. A good launch example was LiteCoin - despite similarity to Tenebrix, it wasn't successfully attacked because everyone had time to prepare ahead of time. If ALL the major Bitcoin pools had been configured to merge mine CoiledCoin, then a 51% attack would have been just as unlikely as it is with Bitcoin.

Another option that might help in the future would be to base off the current Bitcoin block chain at the time of launch instead of creating a new genesis block. That way, everyone who has invested in Bitcoin automatically has some CoiledCoins too, so they have less incentive to attack until after they exchange away their CoiledCoins. We would see less hostility towards alternate cryptocurrencies if they presented less of a long-term threat to the community's savings, and looked more like a fork than a pump-and-dump.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on January 06, 2012, 06:56:03 PM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled, given the significant cost (in time) to do so. Nor do I have any financial loss or care particularly if people want to stop mining on Eligius because they were in on the scam (or any other reason). I will clarify that Eligius miners were not adversely impacted by this, and that the CLC mining involved only adding data that I hashed myself to my own transactions; and I was careful to ensure that nobody lost any confirmed CLC. If any Eligius miner wishes to inquire further, I will take the time to answer specific to-the-point questions which are signmessage'd with an active (ie, has mined in the past week) Eligius payout address that has earned at least 2000 TBC (5.36870912 BTC) over all time.

Eligius is a Bitcoin mining pool and I am, as always, committed to doing my best to contribute to and protect the Bitcoin ecosystem. Pyramid schemes built upon forks of the Bitcoin software ultimately discredit and harm Bitcoin's reputation. I hope CoiledCoin will be the last of such scams now that it is clear there are people (not just myself) willing to stand up to them. Namecoin alone demonstrates a legitimate, innovative use of Bitcoin technology, and while I don't personally agree with their ideals/goals, I see it as a good thing for Bitcoin and worth cooperating with.

cablepair, regarding Devcoin, I don't see any reason to treat it as different from any other scamcoin. I will at least discuss it with you on IRC before doing anything other than mining it with the almost-unmodified (zero txn fee, zero post-maturity delay) Devcoin client.

P.S. While the opposition seem to be very venemous and vocal, I have gotten a lot more positive support from a head-count perspective.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: btc_artist on January 06, 2012, 07:12:02 PM
That was quick.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: finway on January 06, 2012, 07:16:09 PM
Born quick, die quick.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: localhost on January 06, 2012, 07:19:59 PM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled, given the significant cost (in time) to do so. Nor do I have any financial loss or care particularly if people want to stop mining on Eligius because they were in on the scam (or any other reason). [...)
Wow, I had a feeling that Eligius sucked, now I know my intuition was tons more right than I could ever expect!


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on January 06, 2012, 07:27:36 PM
Well ain't that special so have you guys formed the committee yet to decide just what coins are allowed to exists so they don't taint the sainted holy bitcoins...

So?  Fight back.  Fix your technology.  Raise enough BTC to pay two or three small bitcoin pools which are together larger than luke to incentivize them to merge mine this coin.  Had this been done— hell— had this been announced in advance of going live,  then it wouldn't have been vulnerable to this attack.   

Altchains like this are vulnerable because they have no value, especially initially... Merged mining takes effort to set up— contribute to making it cheaper— otherwise only people who are looking to ponzi a new coin or are looking to burn it down have much incentive to join it.  A little payment money for mining would go a long way to tiping the incentives towards cooperating rather than defecting against it.

If you're going to be an altchain you should innovate— not just copy bitcoin code. Here is a chance.

I'm laughing at CH's claims— as if SC weren't the most repeatedly exploited coin of them all. That it says around at all speaks to the amazing power of hope. Sadly, things don't seem to change. :)
I'm doing a full quote of gmaxwell's post to try to preserve it for posterity.

I like it the most where he came up with "tiping the incentives" as an euphemism for extortion.

Luke-Jr has a very stilted writing style. gmaxwell is a world-class copy-writer.

We used to joke about "mining cartel". But now we have "mining mafia" consolidating the control of their territory. Forget about doing a collection for Max Keiser to shoot a short about Bitcoin. We should do a round of fund-raising to induce F.F.Coppola to direct and produce a "Godminer" triptych.  ;)

+1

Who is the pool operator of Bitcoin P2Pool?! It have a pool operator?!


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: 2112 on January 06, 2012, 07:30:58 PM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled, given the significant cost (in time) to do so. Nor do I have any financial loss or care particularly if people want to stop mining on Eligius because they were in on the scam (or any other reason). I will clarify that Eligius miners were not adversely impacted by this, and that the CLC mining involved only adding data that I hashed myself to my own transactions; and I was careful to ensure that nobody lost any confirmed CLC. If any Eligius miner wishes to inquire further, I will take the time to answer specific to-the-point questions which are signmessage'd with an active (ie, has mined in the past week) Eligius payout address that has earned at least 2000 TBC (5.36870912 BTC) over all time.

Eligius is a Bitcoin mining pool and I am, as always, committed to doing my best to contribute to and protect the Bitcoin ecosystem. Pyramid schemes built upon forks of the Bitcoin software ultimately discredit and harm Bitcoin's reputation. I hope CoiledCoin will be the last of such scams now that it is clear there are people (not just myself) willing to stand up to them. Namecoin alone demonstrates a legitimate, innovative use of Bitcoin technology, and while I don't personally agree with their ideals/goals, I see it as a good thing for Bitcoin and worth cooperating with.

cablepair, regarding Devcoin, I don't see any reason to treat it as different from any other scamcoin. I will at least discuss it with you on IRC before doing anything other than mining it with the almost-unmodified (zero txn fee, zero post-maturity delay) Devcoin client.

P.S. While the opposition seem to be very venemous and vocal, I have gotten a lot more positive support from a head-count perspective.
This is better than I could ever imagine: religious freakery mixed with golden calf worship really produces comedy gold.

Godminer-Jr is warning you: if you have a nice little research chain it would be sad to see it unable to process transactions. It has been written on the tablets revealed on Mt.Sinai: Thou shalt have none other chains before mine (Deuteronomy 5:4-21).


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Tomatocage on January 06, 2012, 07:46:27 PM
Your kind loving actions are duly noted and the ass kissers are out in force small shock there. BTW the same pyramid scheme you talk about can be applied to bitcoin as well, so stones and glass houses...

SAC, you're on my list of cool people, so don't take this as a slam, but I think you're on the wrong side of the argument here.  ArtForz did the exact same thing with i0coin when it was released.  BitcoinExpress did the exact same thing with SC (or at least BCX was the public face with high likelihood someone else did the actual heavy lifting).  And now Luke did it with CLC.  The first two examples lead to more secure implementations of the alt-coins and gave us a glimpse of what real-world impact a 51% attack has. 

The sweet isn't as sweet without the sour.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 07:47:01 PM
I'm doing a full quote of gmaxwell's post to try to preserve it for posterity.
I like it the most where he came up with "tiping the incentives" as an euphemism for extortion.
Luke-Jr has a very stilted writing style. gmaxwell is a world-class copy-writer.

Thank you.  I've worked for years on my rhetoric so that when the new world order came I could at least find a place for myself as a an author of propaganda for The Authority.

Quote
We used to joke about "mining cartel". But now we have "mining mafia" consolidating the control of their territory. Forget about doing a collection for Max Keiser to shoot a short about Bitcoin. We should do a round of fund-raising to induce F.F.Coppola to direct and produce a "Godminer" triptych.  ;)

The challenges here were previously forseen: This is why litecoin uses an alternative POW, merged mining is the opposite extreme: You don't even have to stop mining bitcoin to mine a merged coin.  Part of the argument for bitcoin's security, since day one, has been that it's more profitable to cooperate than it is to defect. At the introduction point of competitive bitcoin clone which is merged-mined the opposite is true.  This is a class of error that the altchains make over and over again: Starting up another copy of bitcoin without really understanding the first ones.

But to be clear, I'm not talking about paying people not to attack. I'm talking about paying them to be positive instead of indifferent. Paying them to take the currently non-trivial cost of setting up another merged mining chain and mining it with default rules.  There is no reason to mine the obscure currency altchains except for the hope of getting in on a ponzi scheme, or a fringe hope that they eventually mature to compete with bitcoin— and for people who care about Bitcoin's value and credibility those are the last things we want.  If you offed people some bitcoin, that might easily overcome these reservations (after all, chances are no one will hear about any of these alt-cryptocurrencies) and help out providing the startup security that you need.

The problem of indifference making new merged chains trivial to attack exists even without any pool centralization. If you subtract the big pools from the hash rate that CLC reached, what would it take to 50% it?  10GH?   How many CLC advocates are solo bitcoin miners with a merged mining setup that could compete with that?




Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: 2112 on January 06, 2012, 08:30:28 PM
Thank you very much for your excellent reply. I used up my entertainment time quota for today, so I'll just sketch my answer.

I'm doing a full quote of gmaxwell's post to try to preserve it for posterity.
I like it the most where he came up with "tiping the incentives" as an euphemism for extortion.
Luke-Jr has a very stilted writing style. gmaxwell is a world-class copy-writer.

Thank you.  I've worked for years on my rhetoric so that when the new world order came I could at least find a place for myself as a an author of propaganda for The Authority.

Quote
We used to joke about "mining cartel". But now we have "mining mafia" consolidating the control of their territory. Forget about doing a collection for Max Keiser to shoot a short about Bitcoin. We should do a round of fund-raising to induce F.F.Coppola to direct and produce a "Godminer" triptych.  ;)

The challenges here were previously forseen: This is why litecoin uses an alternative POW, merged mining is the opposite extreme: You don't even have to stop mining bitcoin to mine a merged coin.  Part of the argument for bitcoin's security, since day one, has been that it's more profitable to cooperate than it is to defect. At the introduction point of competitive bitcoin clone which is merged-mined the opposite is true.  This is a class of error that the altchains make over and over again: Starting up another copy of bitcoin without really understanding the first ones.

But to be clear, I'm not talking about paying people not to attack. I'm talking about paying them to be positive instead of indifferent. Paying them to take the currently non-trivial cost of setting up another merged mining chain and mining it with default rules.  There is no reason to mine the obscure currency altchains except for the hope of getting in on a ponzi scheme, or a fringe hope that they eventually mature to compete with bitcoin— and for people who care about Bitcoin's value and credibility those are the last things we want.  If you offed people some bitcoin, that might easily overcome these reservations (after all, chances are no one will hear about any of these alt-cryptocurrencies) and help out providing the startup security that you need.

The problem of indifference making new merged chains trivial to attack exists even without any pool centralization. If you subtract the big pools from the hash rate that CLC reached, what would it take to 50% it?  10GH?   How many CLC advocates are solo bitcoin miners with a merged mining setup that could compete with that?


1) Some Bitcoin luminaries (like Gavin, casascius, Death&Taxes) have already begun thinking about other ways of defending the block-chain besides the brute force. Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55394.msg660862#msg660862 and the following discussion. I just observe that conflict of interest (by being materially involved in mining) seems to be the biggest obstacle to understanding them.

2)  Bitcoin can be viewed as a way to collect banking fees without incurring the fiduciary obligations. The concept of fiduciary duty is older than banking and as old as human societies. In majority of cases fiduciary duty has a positive value and lowers the cost of transactions in a society. In some narrow cases fiduciary duty has a large negative value and increases the cost of transactions: bank is fiducially obliged to prevent payment for contraband or financial support for Wikileaks. As it stands right now Bitcoin solves the problem of negative externalities only for relatively narrow class of users: smugglers, money launderers, etc. By reintroducing the concept of fiduciary obligation to the protocol the majority of users (for whom the externalities are positive) the overall cost of securing the network will be lower.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: tacotime on January 06, 2012, 09:36:50 PM
News at 11

Luke Jr. can't take down LTC so he 51% attacks a new GPU currency


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 06, 2012, 10:11:29 PM
Your kind loving actions are duly noted and the ass kissers are out in force small shock there. BTW the same pyramid scheme you talk about can be applied to bitcoin as well, so stones and glass houses...

SAC, you're on my list of cool people, so don't take this as a slam, but I think you're on the wrong side of the argument here.  ArtForz did the exact same thing with i0coin when it was released.  BitcoinExpress did the exact same thing with SC (or at least BCX was the public face with high likelihood someone else did the actual heavy lifting).  And now Luke did it with CLC.  The first two examples lead to more secure implementations of the alt-coins and gave us a glimpse of what real-world impact a 51% attack has. 

The sweet isn't as sweet without the sour.

I think you miss the whole point, all the other attacks were done by users with their own personal(or rented) resources while luke-joker used the resources of his pool which doesnt belong to him unless he asked every user mining there if they consent to what he is doing.

Luke-Joker never did any of that except whip out his catwomen spandex and snapped his fluffy whip.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on January 07, 2012, 12:40:19 AM
How do I withdraw my CLC compensation from mmpool if I didnt register my ID with a btc address?
Email me at the address on the mmpool site.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: localhost on January 07, 2012, 07:11:07 AM
I think you miss the whole point, all the other attacks were done by users with their own personal(or rented) resources while luke-joker used the resources of his pool which doesnt belong to him unless he asked every user mining there if they consent to what he is doing.
Yup, that's pretty much the issue here. Attacking a chain, okay that's not nice but we're getting used to that. But hijacking other people's resources (misusing their trust) to do so, that's ****ing ***. I hope his rotten pool gets as deserted as it deserves.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: pusle on January 07, 2012, 10:34:10 AM

I thought the main point of these altchains was to do research. Attacking it right out of the gate seems counter productive.

I don't really buy the argument that alt chains detracts from Bitcoin in any way, just coz it's a copy paste or whatever.
Here is a bad anology: BMW cars still rocks even if KIA makes crap. And a copy BMW?, so what..

And saving stupid people from getting scammed? hah I don't buy that for one second. Besides you can't save people from their
own greed/stupidity whatever anyway. Most of you are free market libertarians, you don't want a nanny- anything and neither do I.

So then I guess it's back to human egos and their feelings...sadly.

Can you please grow up and understand that the more altchains we get, the the closer we will get to our goal.
Bitcoin is the best so far, but it's not perfect. Try to help innovation rather than stifling it.  A 51% attack is trivial, we know about it.
It's easy to do and it does not bring us any further. I want to thank makomk for his time and effort while sending him some coins too.

So as you say stop with the trivial clones of bitcoin, then I say Stop with the trivial attacks too. You're not helping.





Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Clipse on January 07, 2012, 12:43:44 PM

I thought the main point of these altchains was to do research. Attacking it right out of the gate seems counter productive.

I don't really buy the argument that alt chains detracts from Bitcoin in any way, just coz it's a copy paste or whatever.
Here is a bad anology: BMW cars still rocks even if KIA makes crap. And a copy BMW?, so what..

And saving stupid people from getting scammed? hah I don't buy that for one second. Besides you can't save people from their
own greed/stupidity whatever anyway. Most of you are free market libertarians, you don't want a nanny- anything and neither do I.

So then I guess it's back to human egos and their feelings...sadly.

Can you please grow up and understand that the more altchains we get, the the closer we will get to our goal.
Bitcoin is the best so far, but it's not perfect. Try to help innovation rather than stifling it.  A 51% attack is trivial, we know about it.
It's easy to do and it does not bring us any further. I want to thank makomk for his time and effort while sending him some coins too.

So as you say stop with the trivial clones of bitcoin, then I say Stop with the trivial attacks too. You're not helping.





What these bitcoin elitist dont realise, there is a ton of users who simply dont see a point in starting to mine bitcoins or get involved in it due to  very little hashing power (and not interested to invest their own $$ from the get go)

These altchains wether a scam to some give everyone a chance to get into bitcoins easier and not by dishing out money to get started and also making them feel like they own some piece of action.

Elitist dont think further than their own idealogies.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Matoking on January 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
Well that's pretty sad. Even though this wasn't probably going to be a "serious" alt-coin, it would have been a neat alt-currency to test out features not-yet supported by Bitcoin.

Good job enforcing your view as an arrogant prick, Luke-Jr.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: mikegogulski on January 07, 2012, 03:48:18 PM
Am I the only one who sees the attack on CLC as (an illegal) DOS?

At a minimum, alt chains are a playground/proving ground for new features that may (or may not) be worthwhile for inclusion in Bitcoin proper.  Regardless of any monetary value in those chains, they provide the community with the opportunity to experiment and try out new ideas.  Attacking and destroying something just because you don't like it and you can is wrong.  

DOS attacks are against the law (criminal and civil in the US).  We can't sit around and let people get away with DOS'ing new chains just because they're new.  I hope those responsible start getting prosecuted.

Half right, half interesting. Heart in the right place and all that.

But seriously, any would-be cryptocurrency that can't survive a DOS attack by a few interested parties can be strangled in the cradle for all I care. If it can't survive that, it can't possibly survive the real world.

Oh, and fuck the so-called "law". With all due respect, you're way behind the curve here if you think that existing money/data/comm "law" has anything to do with what's being built.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: FlipPro on January 07, 2012, 07:25:43 PM
While I don't agree with these non-improvement coins, I must say what Luke did was WRONG.

And the fact that he thinks Mako is a "scammer" is laughable. The dude has been a contributer here for months...


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: eldentyrell on January 08, 2012, 12:57:24 AM
Sorry, but:

**I told you so (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/1132/405)**

Enabling merged mining on an altchain is essentially granting trust to pool operators.

That said, I shed no tears over yet another dead scamchain.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: SupaDupaJenkins on January 08, 2012, 05:24:57 AM
They just deleted Luke-Jr's post proving he did use the pool to attack CLC. Pure censorship on http://bitcointalk.org.



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 05:42:44 PM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled, given the significant cost (in time) to do so. Nor do I have any financial loss or care particularly if people want to stop mining on Eligius because they were in on the scam (or any other reason). I will clarify that Eligius miners were not adversely impacted by this, and that the CLC mining involved only adding data that I hashed myself to my own transactions; and I was careful to ensure that nobody lost any confirmed CLC. If any Eligius miner wishes to inquire further, I will take the time to answer specific to-the-point questions which are signmessage'd with an active (ie, has mined in the past week) Eligius payout address that has earned at least 2000 TBC (5.36870912 BTC) over all time.

Eligius is a Bitcoin mining pool and I am, as always, committed to doing my best to contribute to and protect the Bitcoin ecosystem. Pyramid schemes built upon forks of the Bitcoin software ultimately discredit and harm Bitcoin's reputation. I hope CoiledCoin will be the last of such scams now that it is clear there are people (not just myself) willing to stand up to them. Namecoin alone demonstrates a legitimate, innovative use of Bitcoin technology, and while I don't personally agree with their ideals/goals, I see it as a good thing for Bitcoin and worth cooperating with.

You're a disgusting criminal.

No alt chain can be a pyramid scheme anymore than bitcoin itself is. And by the way, if done honestly, there's nothing ethically wrong with authentic pyramid schemes either. They are just a form of abuse of people's ignorance to get their money with their consent, pretty much like religion. Disgusting, but not criminal at all.

You, on the other hand, attacked an innocent project that had done no harm to anyone. If bitcoin is discredited by alt chains - what is obviously false, but anyway - that's bitcoin's problem. That gives you no right to go own attacking people's projects just because you don't like them.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: k9quaint on January 08, 2012, 05:46:33 PM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled, given the significant cost (in time) to do so. Nor do I have any financial loss or care particularly if people want to stop mining on Eligius because they were in on the scam (or any other reason). I will clarify that Eligius miners were not adversely impacted by this, and that the CLC mining involved only adding data that I hashed myself to my own transactions; and I was careful to ensure that nobody lost any confirmed CLC. If any Eligius miner wishes to inquire further, I will take the time to answer specific to-the-point questions which are signmessage'd with an active (ie, has mined in the past week) Eligius payout address that has earned at least 2000 TBC (5.36870912 BTC) over all time.

Eligius is a Bitcoin mining pool and I am, as always, committed to doing my best to contribute to and protect the Bitcoin ecosystem. Pyramid schemes built upon forks of the Bitcoin software ultimately discredit and harm Bitcoin's reputation. I hope CoiledCoin will be the last of such scams now that it is clear there are people (not just myself) willing to stand up to them. Namecoin alone demonstrates a legitimate, innovative use of Bitcoin technology, and while I don't personally agree with their ideals/goals, I see it as a good thing for Bitcoin and worth cooperating with.

You're a disgusting criminal.

No alt chain can be a pyramid scheme anymore than bitcoin itself is. And by the way, if done honestly, there's nothing ethically wrong with authentic pyramid schemes either. They are just a form of abuse of people's ignorance to get their money with their consent, pretty much like religion. Disgusting, but not criminal at all.

You, on the other hand, attacked an innocent project that had done no harm to anyone. If bitcoin is discredited by alt chains - what is obviously false, but anyway - that's bitcoin's problem. That gives you no right to go own attacking people's projects just because you don't like them.

By endorsing pyramid schemes, you have lost all ethical credibility.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 05:51:54 PM
To OP: I suggest you change the tag on the topic name from [DEAD] to [KILLED BY Eligius pool], to better reflect what actually happened. Eventually Eligius miners who aren't yet aware of how their computing power's being used may see this thread.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 08, 2012, 05:52:57 PM
Why is it dead?  It can't be mined anymore or nobody wants to mine it anymore?

A block chain can't simply be killed.  The title should be changed to (LOST SUPPORT OF COMMUNITY) if you want to be accurate.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 06:00:16 PM
You're a disgusting criminal.

No alt chain can be a pyramid scheme anymore than bitcoin itself is. And by the way, if done honestly, there's nothing ethically wrong with authentic pyramid schemes either. They are just a form of abuse of people's ignorance to get their money with their consent, pretty much like religion. Disgusting, but not criminal at all.

You, on the other hand, attacked an innocent project that had done no harm to anyone. If bitcoin is discredited by alt chains - what is obviously false, but anyway - that's bitcoin's problem. That gives you no right to go own attacking people's projects just because you don't like them.

By endorsing pyramid schemes, you have lost all ethical credibility.


???
Did you read what I wrote entirely, or you stopped on your highlights? Right after, I call them "disgusting" (I highlighted up there). That pretty much means that I don't "endorse" it. They are just not criminal if everything is done consensually, if every party agrees.

Now, using somebody's resources in way that was not previously agreed upon, and plus, in an attack against someone that has done no harm, that's criminal, and way worse than pyramid schemes or religions.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 06:04:19 PM
Why is it dead?  It can't be mined anymore or nobody wants to mine it anymore?

Luke-Jr used his mining pool Eligius to >50% attack this infant currency, preventing people from transacting on it. He confessed a few pages behind.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 06:17:23 PM
Actually I would think he is referring to legitimate programs that follow the same model....  take Amway (and other network marketing programs), you only really make money on it by recruiting underlings (build the pyramid) into the program.... there really is no scam, there is not really much pressure to even use the stuff but it is a "pyramid scheme" by the purest of definitions and it's all up front and in the open (save they use the term "network marketing" instead of "pyramid scheme".... since it does sound nicer....)

Thanks for making it clearer.

None of the alts are any more a "scam" than bitcoin itself and this is one way in which luke-jr is a massive hypocrite...

+1


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: k9quaint on January 08, 2012, 06:24:45 PM
You're a disgusting criminal.

No alt chain can be a pyramid scheme anymore than bitcoin itself is. And by the way, if done honestly, there's nothing ethically wrong with authentic pyramid schemes either. They are just a form of abuse of people's ignorance to get their money with their consent, pretty much like religion. Disgusting, but not criminal at all.

You, on the other hand, attacked an innocent project that had done no harm to anyone. If bitcoin is discredited by alt chains - what is obviously false, but anyway - that's bitcoin's problem. That gives you no right to go own attacking people's projects just because you don't like them.

By endorsing pyramid schemes, you have lost all ethical credibility.


???
Did you read what I wrote entirely, or you stopped on your highlights? Right after, I call them "disgusting" (I highlighted up there). That pretty much means that I don't "endorse" it. They are just not criminal if everything is done consensually, if every party agrees.

Now, using somebody's resources in way that was not previously agreed upon, and plus, in an attack against someone that has done no harm, that's criminal, and way worse than pyramid schemes or religions.

I think you need to read up on what a pyramid scheme is. You seem to have to serious misconceptions about it. You also conflate the misrepresentation of facts with "peoples ignorance". According to that logic, Worldcom and Enron were not criminal, they just exploited the stock market's ignorance about the true state of their finances. No ethical problem at all right?

You also manage to say something is ethically ok and disgusting at the same time. This is convenient in that you may point to either to deflect criticism from any side.

Amway is not a pyramid scheme because if nobody else enters the system, it will not collapse. Pyramid schemes are non-sustainable business models that require new investors in order to fund payouts to existing ones.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 06:46:59 PM
I think you need to read up on what a pyramid scheme is. You seem to have to serious misconceptions about it.

My personal understanding of "pyramid scheme" is something that demands you to pay something to enter, and what you pay go to those that were there before you. For the scheme to keep financially healthy, the number of people entering must never decrease. It's what Social Security would be if it was voluntary (as it's not, it's much worse, it crosses the line of "ethically ok" to "ethically wrong")

According to that logic, Worldcom and Enron were not criminal, they just exploited the stock market's ignorance about the true state of their finances. No ethical problem at all right?

I don't know what these companies did. Wasn't fraud involved? That's ethically wrong, similar to when Luke-Jr used people's computing power in a way that was not agreed upon.
If there was no fraud or violation of people's right than no ethical problem indeed.

You also manage to say something is ethically ok and disgusting at the same time.

Of course something may be disgusting and ethically ok at the same time. Being disgusting is a subjective opinion.

Anyways, we're getting off-topic. Let's try to remain on what happened here, please.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: k9quaint on January 08, 2012, 07:22:11 PM
I think you need to read up on what a pyramid scheme is. You seem to have to serious misconceptions about it.

My personal understanding of "pyramid scheme" is something that demands you to pay something to enter, and what you pay go to those that were there before you. For the scheme to keep financially healthy, the number of people entering must never decrease. It's what Social Security would be if it was voluntary (as it's not, it's much worse, it crosses the line of "ethically ok" to "ethically wrong")

According to that logic, Worldcom and Enron were not criminal, they just exploited the stock market's ignorance about the true state of their finances. No ethical problem at all right?

I don't know what these companies did. Wasn't fraud involved? That's ethically wrong, similar to when Luke-Jr used people's computing power in a way that was not agreed upon.
If there was no fraud or violation of people's right than no ethical problem indeed.

You also manage to say something is ethically ok and disgusting at the same time.

Of course something may be disgusting and ethically ok at the same time. Being disgusting is a subjective opinion.

Anyways, we're getting off-topic. Let's try to remain on what happened here, please.

This is exactly on topic. You make assertions about what is or isn't ethical, but don't have the underlying information to make an informed opinion.
Pyramid schemes necessarily involve fraud, particularly assertions about a products quality, or market penetration, or underlying value. That is why new investors are needed, without them the scheme cannot survive. Now who would invest in a dying enterprise? Someone who was lied to about it's prospects of course.

Luke-jr used the result of peoples computing power, not the power itself. Why is this distinction important and is it actually a distinction? People who signed up with Eligius did so in order to mine Bitcoins. Merged mining involves no additional work in order to function, it uses the results of other proofs of work in order to build its own blockchain. Luke used the results of the BTC mining to attack CLC. Eligius users would earned the exact same number of BTC had Luke-jr not attacked CLC. Since nothing was taken from Eligius users, no economic damage occurred. Eligius users did no extra work to take part in the attack on CLC.

These are the facts as I understand them (I might be wrong):
CLC was basically an unreleased version of BTC with first day merged mining and exchange support.
Luke-jr demonstrated how an unreliable pool operator can destroy such an entity.
Luke-jr did so without incurring any economic harm to or requiring any extra work from his users.
Luke-jr did not double spend CLC, only demonstrated that he could have by creating a separate but longer CLC blockchain.

 Whether he should or should not have attacked CLC is a different question from whether he harmed his users while doing so. Of course, Eligius users who don't like Luke can always switch their operations to a different pool.

Should CLC have been attacked? Should a crypto coin with such a deep structural flaw deserve to survive? Both are interesting questions with deep ethical implications.

The entire premise of cryptocoins is that they are immune or at least very resistant to such manipulations as occurred with CLC. It appears that CLC was not resistant to, and in fact was highly susceptible to such manipulations. So, should we encourage people to place their faith (and cold hard cash) into such a crypto coin? Should we discourage people from doing so? If people are allowed to market fatally flawed products, should not people also be allowed to take steps preventing those products from gaining market traction?

I dunno, mostly because football is on TV right now  ;D



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 08, 2012, 08:28:17 PM
Pyramid schemes necessarily involve fraud, particularly assertions about a products quality, or market penetration, or underlying value.

Not necessarily. There were several pyramid schemes started here on this forum which were quite open from the beginning: you pay X to enter, you receive a certain percentage of what people after you pay etc. No fraud involved.

Luke-jr used the result of peoples computing power, not the power itself. Why is this distinction important and is it actually a distinction? People who signed up with Eligius did so in order to mine Bitcoins. Merged mining involves no additional work in order to function, it uses the results of other proofs of work in order to build its own blockchain. Luke used the results of the BTC mining to attack CLC. Eligius users would earned the exact same number of BTC had Luke-jr not attacked CLC. Since nothing was taken from Eligius users, no economic damage occurred. Eligius users did no extra work to take part in the attack on CLC.

I understand how merged mining works and that it costs nothing extra to miners. But it doesn't matter, I don't believe you can say that miners are giving "full authorization" to pool operators to do whatever they want with their calculations. It's as if your neighbor borrow you a knife for some cooking he's intending to do, and ends up also using this knife to harm someone. Or even to do something not criminal but that you personally don't agree with and that was not clear from the start, like, I don't know, torturing/killing his own dog or something. The fact that he returns the knife intact to you (no lost) doesn't change the fact that he betrayed the implicit agreement.

Should a crypto coin with such a deep structural flaw deserve to survive?

What deep structural flaw? I mean, bitcoin itself could receive such attack, by someone with much more processing power. This new coin was on infant stage and obviously could not counter Eligius attack, as there's no other big pool honestly mining it AFAIK.

The entire premise of cryptocoins is that they are immune or at least very resistant to such manipulations as occurred with CLC.

???
The only known way so far to resist a >50% attack is by centralizing the network.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: k9quaint on January 08, 2012, 09:07:35 PM
Pyramid schemes necessarily involve fraud, particularly assertions about a products quality, or market penetration, or underlying value.

Not necessarily. There were several pyramid schemes started here on this forum which were quite open from the beginning: you pay X to enter, you receive a certain percentage of what people after you pay etc. No fraud involved.

Name them. Most of the claims on this board involve supposedly new and improved crypto currencies. Many of these are neither new, nor are they improved. They also involve a submission of a proof of work in return for new allocations of currency. They do not involve a percentage of this new allocation given to earlier blocks. They are pump and dump schemes, not pyramid schemes.

Luke-jr used the result of peoples computing power, not the power itself. Why is this distinction important and is it actually a distinction? People who signed up with Eligius did so in order to mine Bitcoins. Merged mining involves no additional work in order to function, it uses the results of other proofs of work in order to build its own blockchain. Luke used the results of the BTC mining to attack CLC. Eligius users would earned the exact same number of BTC had Luke-jr not attacked CLC. Since nothing was taken from Eligius users, no economic damage occurred. Eligius users did no extra work to take part in the attack on CLC.

I understand how merged mining works and that it costs nothing extra to miners. But it doesn't matter, I don't believe you can say that miners are giving "full authorization" to pool operators to do whatever they want with their calculations. It's as if your neighbor borrow you a knife for some cooking he's intending to do, and ends up also using this knife to harm someone. Or even to do something not criminal but that you personally don't agree with and that was not clear from the start, like, I don't know, torturing/killing his own dog or something. The fact that he returns the knife intact to you (no lost) doesn't change the fact that he betrayed the implicit agreement.

If he did the cooking and you did not restrict the use of the knife to only cooking, no fraud occurred and there is no broken contract. Lets say after he is done cooking, a home invasion occurs and he successfully defends his family with your knife. Again, as long as he did what he said he was going to do with the knife (say to cook some food for you) and delivered both food and knife to you as agreed, there is no violation of contract. If you want to make sure that the only thing he uses the knife for is the cooking, you had better spell that out (for instance, kosher rules governing what the knife touches).

Should a crypto coin with such a deep structural flaw deserve to survive?

What deep structural flaw? I mean, bitcoin itself could receive such attack, by someone with much more processing power. This new coin was on infant stage and obviously could not counter Eligius attack, as there's no other big pool honestly mining it AFAIK.

The coin was released with merged mining and the largest pool doing merged mining was not acting to appreciate the currencies value. That is a structural flaw in the launch of the coin. The fact that it was not foreseen by the founders is irrelevant. Bitcoin could not have received such an attack as there was no such thing as merged mining when it started, also there is no crypto currency with orders of magnitude more hashing power than BTC that is required for such a scenario to play out today.

The entire premise of cryptocoins is that they are immune or at least very resistant to such manipulations as occurred with CLC.

??? The only known way so far to resist a >50% attack is by centralizing the network.

It was the centralization of CLC in Eligius that created the conditions where a 51% attack can succeed. You cannot eliminate the potential for the attack, you can only minimize it by distributing the resources among many nodes. Since the ultimate control of the currency is in the hands of the users, they could all band together and decide to modify it in any way they see fit. That is technically a 51% attack, since the majority of the miners decide to change the protocol. The implementation of OP_EVAL in BTC by the developers will technically be a 51% attack on the original protocol. Ideally, no losses of BTC will occur.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: NASDAQEnema on January 09, 2012, 03:22:25 AM
I think you need to read up on what a pyramid scheme is. You seem to have to serious misconceptions about it.

My personal understanding of "pyramid scheme" is something that demands you to pay something to enter, and what you pay go to those that were there before you. For the scheme to keep financially healthy, the number of people entering must never decrease. It's what Social Security would be if it was voluntary (as it's not, it's much worse, it crosses the line of "ethically ok" to "ethically wrong")

According to that logic, Worldcom and Enron were not criminal, they just exploited the stock market's ignorance about the true state of their finances. No ethical problem at all right?

I don't know what these companies did. Wasn't fraud involved? That's ethically wrong, similar to when Luke-Jr used people's computing power in a way that was not agreed upon.
If there was no fraud or violation of people's right than no ethical problem indeed.

You also manage to say something is ethically ok and disgusting at the same time.

Of course something may be disgusting and ethically ok at the same time. Being disgusting is a subjective opinion.

Anyways, we're getting off-topic. Let's try to remain on what happened here, please.

1. Social security is a scam only because  it decreases the number of people helping each other outside the system.
2. Amway got caught in an odd scam if I remember.
3. I can forgive not knowing about Worldcom, but Enron ended up in dead bodies. How do you not know of that one?
4. I think kitten stampedes are a disgusting way to manipulate people, but not unethical.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 09, 2012, 10:24:55 AM
3. I can forgive not knowing about Worldcom, but Enron ended up in dead bodies. How do you not know of that one?

Of course I remember about the scandal, but I don't live in the USA, so I didn't get particularly interested in digging up the news to know the details. All I remember is that they went broke on a quite noisy scandal involving politicians.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 09, 2012, 10:58:53 AM
If he did the cooking and you did not restrict the use of the knife to only cooking, no fraud occurred and there is no broken contract. Lets say after he is done cooking, a home invasion occurs and he successfully defends his family with your knife. Again, as long as he did what he said he was going to do with the knife (say to cook some food for you) and delivered both food and knife to you as agreed, there is no violation of contract. If you want to make sure that the only thing he uses the knife for is the cooking, you had better spell that out (for instance, kosher rules governing what the knife touches).

Some restrictions are implicit. The typical example is that of the boat ride. If a friend of yours offers you a boat ride, and you agree, it is implicit that he must bring you back to land. He cannot demand you to leave his property on the middle of the ocean.

Miners on eligius have, for sure, agreed to mine BTC on the pool in return for the payments they receive. It is not clear at all that they have agreed on using their mining power to attack innocent projects. And even if they had, that would only make them accomplices of Luke-Jr unfair act.

The coin was released with merged mining and the largest pool doing merged mining was not acting to appreciate the currencies value. That is a structural flaw in the launch of the coin.

So allowing merged mining is the "deep flaw" to you? Really?

Such a feature would only be considered a flaw if you assume that
  • There are rogue, ill-intended big pool operators out there.
  • The miners of such rogue pool operator would support an attack on an infant technology that has done no harm.

Honestly, I wouldn't call that a "deep flaw" since, before this shameful event, I would not take such hypothesis as something to worry about, particular the second one. I guess I still had more faith in mankind than I should have, it seems.

Even worse than Luke-Jr promoting such attack is the fact that he's apparently, so far, "getting away with murderer". Depressive. It's as if lots of miners would collude with deepbit to reach >50% and start double-spending to their profit.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Explodicle on January 09, 2012, 02:08:29 PM
Even worse than Luke-Jr promoting such attack is the fact that he's apparently, so far, "getting away with murderer". Depressive. It's as if lots of miners would collude with deepbit to reach >50% and start double-spending to their profit.

It's not quite the same because miner incentives are different. Bitcoin miners have an incentive to kill rivals, but double-spending would damage the value of their investments.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 09, 2012, 02:12:14 PM
Even worse than Luke-Jr promoting such attack is the fact that he's apparently, so far, "getting away with murderer". Depressive. It's as if lots of miners would collude with deepbit to reach >50% and start double-spending to their profit.

It's not quite the same because miner incentives are different. Bitcoin miners have an incentive to kill rivals, but double-spending would damage the value of their investments.

Ding ding ding. 

51% provides an economic disincentive to use hashing power for "bad".  That doesn't mean someone who doesn't mind destroying millions of dollars can't try but there is no ECONOMIC INCENTIVE to do so.

Starting a crypto-currency w/ merged mining WITHOUT large commitments from miners and pools (i.e. hundreds of GHs) is stupid.
Rushing a launch is stupid (from first post to genesis block was <24 hours).

Combined they created a situation where there was absolutely no economic disincentive.  It was "free" to attack the chain.  Essentially the blockchain's survivial was based on "everyone in the whole world being nice". 


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 09, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
But it's not too far off reality....  
There is also economic incentive to not forward on transactions until you find a block so that you can keep the transaction fees....  imagine how much crappier using the network would become if the big pools decided to do this to maximize their profits?  Would Bitcoin pool users support this?  After all it helps them get more profits and helps kill off competing pools over time, since they would be less profitable especially once the generates are gone...

If there was an economic incentive to do so pool already would have but no economic incentive exists.

There are roughly 50,000 nodes.  A pool represents one of those.  Thus pools ability to limit data to rest of the nodes is non-existent.  All "satoshi" clients forward transactions to all peers of which they will have at least 8 thus even if a pool could limit what they forward they are only receiving copies.

Potentially you could see pools in the future which offered discounted rates if transactions were sent only to them (i.e. hashing as a service).  

The reality is people do bad things in this world.  If there is an economic incentive you increase the likelihood something bad will happen.  An economic disincentive reduces the likelihood.  51% attack is an economic disincentive however merged mining changes that and developers should keep that in mind.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 09, 2012, 04:22:15 PM
Even worse than Luke-Jr promoting such attack is the fact that he's apparently, so far, "getting away with murderer". Depressive. It's as if lots of miners would collude with deepbit to reach >50% and start double-spending to their profit.

It's not quite the same because miner incentives are different. Bitcoin miners have an incentive to kill rivals, but double-spending would damage the value of their investments.

I was not thinking about economic incentives when I wrote that, it was just a comparison about people personal moral values. You have to be a great scumbag to do one thing or another. Before such event I used to think most people would not be such assholes, but apparently, if Eligius remains with that many miners, I was plain wrong on such assumption. We live indeed in a society of criminals (http://mises.org/daily/4125).


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 09, 2012, 04:28:29 PM
Combined they created a situation where there was absolutely no economic disincentive.  It was "free" to attack the chain.  Essentially the blockchain's survivial was based on "everyone in the whole world being nice". 

It was not based on "everyone being nice", it was based on "not most people being crooks". If a sensible percentage of Eligius miners did not agree in being accomplices of such attack on innocent people, then he would probably have dropped it already. And if at least one other pool operator decided to counter his attack, honest miners could migrate from Eligius to this other pool and even if Luke-Jr decided to attack "no matter what", he would be outnumbered.

Anyway... it was definitely not "everyone has to be nice for it to work".


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: dayfall on January 09, 2012, 04:54:57 PM
Since Eligius' miners will freely attack a new chain, I say someone should attempt to include some intelligence in the clients so that this sort of thing can be prevented.  There must be some sort of defense.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 09, 2012, 06:02:22 PM
Ding ding ding. 

51% provides an economic disincentive to use hashing power for "bad".  That doesn't mean someone who doesn't mind destroying millions of dollars can't try but there is no ECONOMIC INCENTIVE to do so.
There is no economic incentive to do so so long as you're primarily invested in Bitcoins. For example, suppose someone really wealthy concluded that Bitcoins were potentially harmful to their wealth elsewhere; it might make economic sense for them to spend a few million dollars destroying Bitcoin.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 09, 2012, 07:05:12 PM
There is no economic incentive to do so so long as you're primarily invested in Bitcoins. For example, suppose someone really wealthy concluded that Bitcoins were potentially harmful to their wealth elsewhere; it might make economic sense for them to spend a few million dollars destroying Bitcoin.

I guess I should say direct economic incentive.  It is unlikely a single entity would gain more economic value than they get from destroying Bitcoin.  For example if a single bank decided to kill Bitcoin then all banks would benefit but the bank spending the significant sum is unlikely to benefit by the amount it costs to launch the attack (plus any potential costs if caught).

This doesn't make Bitcoin "immune" but it does significantly raise the bar as an entity would need to be willing to destroy Bitcoin at significant cost and they may never personally reap the benefits of that cost.

For example a bank today likely could kill Bitcoin for $20M investment.  However if BofA spent $20M to kill bitcoin do you think that will produce a gain in revenue for BofA >$20M?  Unlikely.   In the future when Bitcoin is 100x more popular the benefit to BofA might be greater but so is the cost.

There was ABSOLUTELY NO COST to kill CoiledCoin.  If something has no cost to attack it will be attacked.



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 09, 2012, 07:32:16 PM

There was ABSOLUTELY NO COST to kill CoiledCoin.  If something has no cost to attack it will be attacked.


Wrong. The cost was luke's reputation (what little was left of it, arguably not a very large cost indeed)

Well that assumes it hurt his reputation much which based on his pool's hashing power it didn't.

It also assumes the attacker is going to make the attack public (which Luke didn't have to do).

In the case of botnet or private farm attack nobody would ever know who executed the attack.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: dayfall on January 09, 2012, 07:59:48 PM
The (to date) only defenses against this kind of attack that are working are:

1) Bitcoin level difficulty ...
2) Solidcoin 2's arbiter node system ...
3) CPU hash algo's ...
4) Not enabling merged mining...


1) I am suggestion we try a defense other than just have more hashing power.
2) Can't we do something similar but not have it centralized.  Solidcoin chooses his own trusted nodes.  Why can't I choose?
3) Really bad idea, I say.
4) This is avoiding the problem that I suggest we fix.  (It does avoid the other problem, namely, having a pool operator getting coins that should go to the miners.)

Are these attacks detectable?  Are these attacks correctable if detected?  Can it be done semi-autonomously?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 09, 2012, 08:18:27 PM
1) I am suggestion we try a defense other than just have more hashing power.
That's... non-trivial, and most of the proposed suggestions either require centralization, cause more problems, or both

2) Can't we do something similar but not have it centralized.  Solidcoin chooses his own trusted nodes.  Why can't I choose?
It's important that different nodes' view of the blockchain converges in a reasonable time, and this is hard - probably even impossible - to guarantee if every node is following different rules about which blockchain they prefer.

Are these attacks detectable?  Are these attacks correctable if detected?  Can it be done semi-autonomously?
They're detectable, even automatically detectable in theory, there's just not an easy way to prevent them.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: k9quaint on January 09, 2012, 09:06:44 PM
The coin was released with merged mining and the largest pool doing merged mining was not acting to appreciate the currencies value. That is a structural flaw in the launch of the coin.

So allowing merged mining is the "deep flaw" to you? Really?

Such a feature would only be considered a flaw if you assume that
  • There are rogue, ill-intended big pool operators out there.
  • The miners of such rogue pool operator would support an attack on an infant technology that has done no harm.

Honestly, I wouldn't call that a "deep flaw" since, before this shameful event, I would not take such hypothesis as something to worry about, particular the second one. I guess I still had more faith in mankind than I should have, it seems.

Even worse than Luke-Jr promoting such attack is the fact that he's apparently, so far, "getting away with murderer". Depressive. It's as if lots of miners would collude with deepbit to reach >50% and start double-spending to their profit.

The fact that you don't consider merged mining on day zero a flaw, especially in light of recent events is baffling. You really think that you can assume there are no people in the world with large computing resources at their disposal for use in a nefarious manner? Welcome to the internet, I hope you enjoy your stay.

Then again, lots of people have trouble with the concept of what merged mining is. They conflate hashing power with the resultant hashes. They don't understand contract law. They have no idea what is, and what is not valid cryptography. They have no idea what the criminal side of the internet engages in, or what sort of resources are at their disposal. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people get the ethics wrong.

Somehow, an act that caused no economic harm to anyone has everyone in a tremendous uproar. We need a picture of a cat and a car analogy to go with it. ;)



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: NASDAQEnema on January 09, 2012, 11:40:28 PM
Somehow, an act that caused no economic harm to anyone has everyone in a tremendous uproar. We need a picture of a cat and a car analogy to go with it. ;)

Economic, capital, material harm. If the only harm you can valuate is monetary or physical then we've lost the game already.

:/

You gave me a sad.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: k9quaint on January 09, 2012, 11:49:56 PM
Somehow, an act that caused no economic harm to anyone has everyone in a tremendous uproar. We need a picture of a cat and a car analogy to go with it. ;)

Economic, capital, material harm. If the only harm you can valuate is monetary or physical then we've lost the game already.

:/

You gave me a sad.

The psychological and emotional harm that occurred was the following:
The creater of an altcoin is sad that his altcoin as initially defined was not viable.
Some people who misunderstand what took place and/or are not in possession of the facts are angry.

The first is a fact of life for the altcoin community, I expect it will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
The second is unavoidable on the internet.

Either add to the list of emotional/psychological harm, or explain why I should be upset by either of it's current entries.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: HolodeckJizzmopper on January 10, 2012, 01:38:17 AM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled

 Funny, given your over-zealous religious beliefs, I find it hysterically ironic that you decided to play god with your pool's users and stick your fist up their asses to do your illicit bidding.
 
 You are pathetic. Glad I pulled my hashing power off your pool months ago.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 10, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
So allowing merged mining is the "deep flaw" to you? Really?

Such a feature would only be considered a flaw if you assume that
  • There are rogue, ill-intended big pool operators out there.
  • The miners of such rogue pool operator would support an attack on an infant technology that has done no harm.

Honestly, I wouldn't call that a "deep flaw" since, before this shameful event, I would not take such hypothesis as something to worry about

The fact that you don't consider merged mining on day zero a flaw, especially in light of recent events is baffling.

You seem to keep ignoring what I write. I highlighted it again. Before this recent event, I wouldn't imagine that a large portion of miners would be OK with their computing power being used to commit crimes. Now I'm "baffled", indeed.

You really think that you can assume there are no people in the world with large computing resources at their disposal for use in a nefarious manner?

For the Nth time, this is not one or a few individuals commiting crimes alone. This is one individual commiting crimes with the support of many others. Many random people, since there's no reason to believe pooled mining attracts more criminals than honest people. And lots of this random people simply don't care to be accomplices in crime. That's the true baffling part.

Somehow, an act that caused no economic harm to anyone has everyone in a tremendous uproar. We need a picture of a cat and a car analogy to go with it. ;)

You're shortsighted there. Learn with Fréderic Bastiat, and pay attention to "what we don't see".
What's the direct economic harm of a big armed group declaring "from now on, everybody wanting to provide banking services will have to acquire license X". (which just happens to be an almost impossible to obtain license, unless you're very dear to politicians). Nobody immediately loses anything, just like what happened here. But the lost in opportunity is there, as many new business that could eventually innovate and improve people's life just won't ever be born.
The same situation happens here. A criminal and powerful individual declares: "cryptocurrecies with merged mining simply cannot happen (unless of course you're dear to some pool operator)." A whole branch of possibly innovative solutions will never born. And the saddest part is that such aggression only takes place because lots of random people prefer to do nothing about it.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DannyM on January 10, 2012, 11:51:37 AM
I'm sympathetic to your frustration, but let's please not equate this to violence.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 10, 2012, 01:52:48 PM
Interestingly, it looks like there is actually a way of making coins immune from this particular attack that doesn't require any kind of trusted central authorities and can't be used to fork the blockchain. Unfortunately it'd be a huge pain to implement correctly and wouldn't be able to deal with 51% double-spending attacks.

The trick is that there's no inherent reason why the Bitcoin blockchain actually had to be in the form of a chain. Simply add a rule that blocks can merge multiple non-conflicting forks of the blockchain by having multiple parents, calculating its total work as the sum of its work and work done for all its ancestor blocks. That way, it doesn't matter that Eligius is mining faster than the rest of the network because we can use the attacker's work against him - our non-attack versions of the best chain are counted as having the strength of all his work plus all ours, and the only way he can benefit from this effect is if he includes other's blocks and transactions which is what we wanted in the first place!

There's almost certainly some subtle flaw in this and it'd be a nightmare to implement correctly and in a way that couldn't be exploited, but on paper it seems like a clever idea. Don't think I'm going to go through with it though. (There are a whole bunch of subtle details that have to be taken care of. For example, we need to cap how far back a fork that's being merged can come from to block spam, but this limits the power of this scheme against denial-of-service.)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 10, 2012, 02:04:25 PM
Interestingly, it looks like there is actually a way of making coins immune from this particular attack that doesn't require any kind of trusted central authorities and can't be used to fork the blockchain. Unfortunately it'd be a huge pain to implement correctly and wouldn't be able to deal with 51% double-spending attacks.

The trick is that there's no inherent reason why the Bitcoin blockchain actually had to be in the form of a chain. Simply add a rule that blocks can merge multiple non-conflicting forks of the blockchain by having multiple parents, calculating its total work as the sum of its work and work done for all its ancestor blocks. That way, it doesn't matter that Eligius is mining faster than the rest of the network because we can use the attacker's work against him - our non-attack versions of the best chain are counted as having the strength of all his work plus all ours, and the only way he can benefit from this effect is if he includes other's blocks and transactions which is what we wanted in the first place!

There's almost certainly some subtle flaw in this and it'd be a nightmare to implement correctly and in a way that couldn't be exploited, but on paper it seems like a clever idea. Don't think I'm going to go through with it though. (There are a whole bunch of subtle details that have to be taken care of. For example, we need to cap how far back a fork that's being merged can come from to block spam, but this limits the power of this scheme against denial-of-service.)

How exactly do you deal w/ conflicts.

Chain A says coins transferred from address 123 to address 456.
Chain B says coins transferred from address 123 to address 789.

Where do the coins go?

Forget 51%.  Double spending is as easy as making a duplicate block w/ different transaction.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: makomk on January 10, 2012, 02:21:56 PM
How exactly do you deal w/ conflicts.

Chain A says coins transferred from address 123 to address 456.
Chain B says coins transferred from address 123 to address 789.

Where do the coins go?

Forget 51%.  Double spending is as easy as making a duplicate block w/ different transaction.
Yeah, that's the problem. It only works so long as whoever's attacking the chain doesn't attempt a double spend. We can still cope with sub-50% double spend attempts by essentially picking the side of the double-spend with the most confirmations (though there's a lot of subtlty in how this must be calculated) and throwing away the other double-spend block and its descendants, but greater-than-51% ones are a huge problem.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on January 10, 2012, 06:58:36 PM
This idea of considering short forks as valid to prevent "freezing attacks" is interesting. I opened a topic about it, with some elaboration already done, but certainly a lot missing. Here it is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57647.0


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: btc_artist on January 10, 2012, 10:52:20 PM
Hmmm, some good may have come out of this yet.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on January 10, 2012, 10:59:59 PM
Now that the scammers are (at least mostly) gone and shut up... I'm offering a 50k CLC bounty to a practical, technological solution to my monopoly on CLC. If there are multiple people involved in the solution (eg, one person designs it and another implements it), I will decide how to split it up among them.

I'll say straight off, that this does not include "solutions" like the all-too-common FUDing and slander, nor special-casing to my particular blocks (that is, I should still be able to mine like everyone else after it's fixed), though fitting to the particular nature of this monopoly is acceptable.

When/if this solution is implemented, I will consider CLC to have made a legitimate contribution worth leaving it alone.

Bonus points if you can give it also a legitimate long-term use to bring it fully out of "scamcoin" status, and then I'll offer it as a merged-mining option on Eligius. ;)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 10, 2012, 11:24:00 PM
Cute. I was thinkiing of calling is Lukecoin or Dashcoin and then I find you seem to be thinking along the same lines. :)

(Last time I'd checked the block count was still increasing so it evidently wasn't dead, just being pre-mined by it's owner uh I mean pwner.)

I have been wondering if one potential solution might simply be to outbid other pools in the amount of reward offered to miners. Basically paying them in just one currency, probably devcoins, bitcoins, paypal, pecunix, or that liberty silver thing, and doing it as residual where the shares they submit all count toward perpetual (until they sell the shares; the pool would be trying to buy them as well as paying out on them) share of proceeds of all the ever increasing numbers of blockchains (not necessarily only coin blockchains) the pool works on.

Since there are many more blockchains that still do not have pool support, and at least some might potentially have some value, I am thinking such an approach might actually end up being able to pay more per unit of work than pools that merge only a few best-known chains.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 12:09:56 AM
Now that the scammers are (at least mostly) gone and shut up... I'm offering a 50k CLC bounty to a practical, technological solution to my monopoly on CLC. If there are multiple people involved in the solution (eg, one person designs it and another implements it), I will decide how to split it up among them.
I'll say straight off, that this does not include "solutions" like the all-too-common FUDing and slander, nor special-casing to my particular blocks (that is, I should still be able to mine like everyone else after it's fixed), though fitting to the particular nature of this monopoly is acceptable.

I'm not involved in CLC and I don't have the knowledge to implement it, but I think this idea of mine might work: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53128.0
Basically, we consider miners who don't include old transactions in mined blocks are hurting the network so we invalidate their blocks. The idea was rejected because it was considered it would take away freedom from miners. In CLC context and your attack, something like that seems to be perfect - your hashing power would allow you to only delay all trasactions up to a maximum limit.
Let's make the rule really simple: blocks are invalid if there are tx'es older than 8h not included. What do you think?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on January 11, 2012, 12:15:15 AM
Let's make the rule really simple: blocks are invalid if there are tx'es older than 8h not included. What do you think?
I'd "time" them in blocks. What if there are too many to include in a single block? ;)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 12:19:19 AM
Let's make the rule really simple: blocks are invalid if there are tx'es older than 8h not included. What do you think?
I'd "time" them in blocks. What if there are too many to include in a single block? ;)
I kind of doubt there will be a "too many tx in the same block window" problem any time soon, but sure, blocks works just as well.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DeathAndTaxes on January 11, 2012, 12:59:50 AM
Let's make the rule really simple: blocks are invalid if there are tx'es older than 8h not included. What do you think?
I'd "time" them in blocks. What if there are too many to include in a single block? ;)
I kind of doubt there will be a "too many tx in the same block window" problem any time soon, but sure, blocks works just as well.

Have you thought that all the way through?  Try thinking like an attacker.

How does an arbitrary node on the network know how old a transaction is?
How could an attacker use the requirement to have all transactions older than x blocks included to attack the network?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: RandyFolds on January 11, 2012, 01:12:14 AM
Let's make the rule really simple: blocks are invalid if there are tx'es older than 8h not included. What do you think?
I'd "time" them in blocks. What if there are too many to include in a single block? ;)
I kind of doubt there will be a "too many tx in the same block window" problem any time soon, but sure, blocks works just as well.

Have you thought that all the way through? 

Of course not. God does the thinking around these parts.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 01:30:06 AM
Have you thought that all the way through?  Try thinking like an attacker.

Probably not. I'm not that evil :P

Quote
How does an arbitrary node on the network know how old a transaction is?
How could an attacker use the requirement to have all transactions older than x blocks included to attack the network?

Assuming that tx propagation is reasonably fast, simply take into account the time the node got the tx. This assumption might not be true, but I think I read that it's somewhere under 30 seconds. As long as the case where a new block appears in the network while some txes are propagating is very rare, I think it's not a problem. Am I wrong?
Regarding the attack scenario, an attacker might want to withhold old transactions and forward them with delay, so they will invalidate other miners' blocks. But if the other nodes will see this as new transactions, this attack will fail. I can't think of other ways, it's late, I'm tired and I think I have brain damage from doing Gtk in Python :)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 01:38:05 AM
Of course not. God does the thinking around these parts.

My mama told me I should wash my hands, be nice to old people and don't answer to Internet trolls, but I guess I'll bite this time. As per any dictionary a forum is: "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." . I didn't realize there's also a requirement to do deep research on any random idea I have and want to share with the rest of the community. Allow me to apologize and rest assured the I will immediately start working on a paper that will analyze my idea from all conceivable point of view, including but not limited to environmental impact, religious aspects, dependency on weather conditions, influence on snow tigers (they're an endangered species!) and so on. You seem really nice and friendly, I will make sure to send you a first draft for review, I'm sure you'll help.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: RandyFolds on January 11, 2012, 01:49:05 AM
Of course not. God does the thinking around these parts.

My mama told me I should wash my hands, be nice to old people and don't answer to Internet trolls, but I guess I'll bite this time. As per any dictionary a forum is: "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." . I didn't realize there's also a requirement to do deep research on any random idea I have and want to share with the rest of the community. Allow me to apologize and rest assured the I will immediately start working on a paper that will analyze my idea from all conceivable point of view, including but not limited to environmental impact, religious aspects, dependency on weather conditions, influence on snow tigers (they're an endangered species!) and so on. You seem really nice and friendly, I will make sure to send you a first draft for review, I'm sure you'll help.

I was poking fun at luke-jr...I should have pared down the quoted posts. Sorry for the offense, but I look forward to your dessertation...wait, it's a dissertation. Nevermind.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Syke on January 11, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
Assuming that tx propagation is reasonably fast, simply take into account the time the node got the tx. This assumption might not be true, but I think I read that it's somewhere under 30 seconds. As long as the case where a new block appears in the network while some txes are propagating is very rare, I think it's not a problem. Am I wrong?
Very wrong. Nodes come and go all the time. No tx propagates to all nodes. Consider when a new node comes online, so it didn't see all the previous txs, and it solves a block. Then the whole network invalidates its block because it doesn't include old txs it never saw.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 11, 2012, 06:35:00 AM
Its fun to have huge quantities of cryptocoins, even ones thought to be pretty much worthless.

Since pool users evidently do't mind pool operators mining umpteen atlcoins without giving them a cut, all the pools might as well do it. We can use the coins in all kinds of games or something. It'll be fun.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 08:31:46 AM
Assuming that tx propagation is reasonably fast, simply take into account the time the node got the tx. This assumption might not be true, but I think I read that it's somewhere under 30 seconds. As long as the case where a new block appears in the network while some txes are propagating is very rare, I think it's not a problem. Am I wrong?
Very wrong. Nodes come and go all the time. No tx propagates to all nodes. Consider when a new node comes online, so it didn't see all the previous txs, and it solves a block. Then the whole network invalidates its block because it doesn't include old txs it never saw.

You are, in theory, right. In practice (for Bitcoin proper at least), miners are always online and on a very fast connection. Not to mention that there's very little chance to miss an old tx. Remember that a block will be invalid if a mined didn't include a very old tx - no problem if it missed a very new one. I think there's very little chance that a miner comes online and solves a block in the time that it will take to receive all tx'es. But if that is real concern, i guess it makes sense for a miner to simply wait a few minutes to connect to very stable nodes and sync with the network until it starts hashing, no?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 08:34:58 AM
Of course not. God does the thinking around these parts.

My mama told me I should wash my hands, be nice to old people and don't answer to Internet trolls, but I guess I'll bite this time. As per any dictionary a forum is: "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." . I didn't realize there's also a requirement to do deep research on any random idea I have and want to share with the rest of the community. Allow me to apologize and rest assured the I will immediately start working on a paper that will analyze my idea from all conceivable point of view, including but not limited to environmental impact, religious aspects, dependency on weather conditions, influence on snow tigers (they're an endangered species!) and so on. You seem really nice and friendly, I will make sure to send you a first draft for review, I'm sure you'll help.

I was poking fun at luke-jr...I should have pared down the quoted posts. Sorry for the offense, but I look forward to your dessertation...wait, it's a dissertation. Nevermind.

Oh. In this case, I'm sorry for being so trigger happy. Let's all be friends :) (and expect a 150+ pages document very-very soon :) ).


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Syke on January 11, 2012, 09:33:32 AM
Not to mention that there's very little chance to miss an old tx.
New miners can't "receive all tx'es".  They can only receive newly broadcast txs. So basically every time a new miner comes online, it will be missing lots of old txs.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: ovidiusoft on January 11, 2012, 10:46:26 AM
Not to mention that there's very little chance to miss an old tx.
New miners can't "receive all tx'es".  They can only receive newly broadcast txs. So basically every time a new miner comes online, it will be missing lots of old txs.

I might be reading the protocol specs wrong but I was under the impression that it's at least possible (if not the default) to receive all objects in the peer's inv message, which can include blocks and/or tx-es. As long as the peers are correctly broadcasting known tx-es not linked to blocks, a newly connected node should see old tx-es too. Maybe someone with a better understanding of the implementation can tell us if that's so or you are right?

If you are right, I guess that's a problem which should be fixed, independent of my idea.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Tittiez on April 11, 2012, 12:47:07 AM
I threw the source up on github for safekeeping, maybe someone will fork it?

https://github.com/Tittiez/coiledcoin

And if anyone needs a windows client, here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?1pg3jb55p17r2k8  -  Daemon Included


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: smoothie on July 11, 2012, 09:04:29 PM
News at 11

Luke Jr. can't take down LTC so he 51% attacks a new GPU currency


Is this still true?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on July 11, 2012, 09:05:33 PM
As far as I know he switched to just plain old mining it. Using his pool's users' hashing power, of course.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Rubberduckie on July 11, 2012, 09:07:14 PM
As far as I know he switched to just plain old mining it. Using his pool's users' hashing power, of course.

-MarkM-


Probably didn't bother telling his miners though ;)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: coblee on July 11, 2012, 09:09:53 PM
As far as I know he switched to just plain old mining it. Using his pool's users' hashing power, of course.

-MarkM-


Probably didn't bother telling his miners though ;)

Yes, he used Eligius miners to merge mine this and killed it by rejecting any transactions. Not sure if he's still doing this.
He cannot perform the same attack on Litecoin, because Litecoin uses scrypt and cannot be merge mined with Bitcoin.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on July 11, 2012, 09:12:54 PM
News at 11

Luke Jr. can't take down LTC so he 51% attacks a new GPU currency


Is this still true?
Not quite. There are a couple of vulnerabilities in Litecoin that can be used as soon as they're disclosed. I don't think they can be used in a legal manner (without permission from the targets), though. Would be nice to see real-world effects of one of them being exploited, so I'm hoping the Litecoin dev team and some volunteer users can agree on a specific day to do this.

As far as I know he switched to just plain old mining it. Using his pool's users' hashing power, of course.
Not quite "plain old mining", since I only accepted huge transaction fees. And it didn't use the pool users.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on July 11, 2012, 09:13:39 PM
He didn't just reject transactions, in fact I don't know if he rejected transactions at all. He "killed" it by rejecting blocks he didn't mine, so no one else could mine blocks.

Most other miners dropped out, I see only two connections since long long ago, one of which might be him. However I do not have an incoming port routed so it is possible there are other miners out there that also have no incoming port thus that I cannot attain a connection with.

I have been getting blocks for a long time, but not many since Elgius (or whoever it is that is still mining it) has a lot more hashing power than I do.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: smoothie on July 11, 2012, 09:18:52 PM
News at 11

Luke Jr. can't take down LTC so he 51% attacks a new GPU currency


Is this still true?
Not quite. There are a couple of vulnerabilities in Litecoin that can be used as soon as they're disclosed. I don't think they can be used in a legal manner (without permission from the targets), though. Would be nice to see real-world effects of one of them being exploited, so I'm hoping the Litecoin dev team and some volunteer users can agree on a specific day to do this.

As far as I know he switched to just plain old mining it. Using his pool's users' hashing power, of course.
Not quite "plain old mining", since I only accepted huge transaction fees. And it didn't use the pool users.

So essentially it is still true until you have the vulnerability info...lol



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on September 18, 2012, 07:50:42 AM
So, anyone actually got any coiledcoins left?

Luke-Jr, how about you? Presumably you racked up quite a few of them during your attack?

Since dirt cheap cryptocurrencies are really fun for gamers to have fun with, players are interested in how much these things go for nowadays...

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Luke-Jr on September 18, 2012, 08:05:29 AM
So, anyone actually got any coiledcoins left?

Luke-Jr, how about you? Presumably you racked up quite a few of them during your attack?

Since dirt cheap cryptocurrencies are really fun for gamers to have fun with, players are interested in how much these things go for nowadays...

-MarkM-
Testnet works.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on September 18, 2012, 08:15:49 AM
Testnet works.

We gave up on using testnet for games a long long time ago, because of a chain-restart.

It does not matter if the game-coins in a game-character's pocket are worthless, but having them vanish from their pocket is not acceptable.

This is why we are trying to only use coins that are already secured by one or more hardcoded checkpoints. Antique coins of a "dead" (aka "darknet"?) chain are great for game use, as the more hardcoded checkpoints that have gone by the more confidence players have that if enough hashing power can ever be mobilised to bring them back out of the closet the coins their character has will still be in the blockchain.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: bitcool on September 21, 2012, 03:31:35 AM
sounds spooky


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on October 25, 2012, 05:23:00 PM
Someone mentioned in a PPCoin thread they were having trouble compiling a copy of coiledcoind.

I don't know which one I am using, when I do "git pull" to see where I pull it from I get asked for username and password, so I think maybe whatever github repo I had been pulling it from is no longer up there or something.

I have archived the copy I am using, I would have added a checkpoint but my debug.log only shows some aux proofs of work found no normal ones and I am not sure if the aux ones would work as checkpoints.

Also, the thing totally lacks any checkpoints, the whole checkpoints array contents are commented out.

I have created a directory for CoiLedCoin at https://sourceforge.net/projects/galacticmilieu/files/

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: K1773R on October 25, 2012, 05:45:17 PM
Someone mentioned in a PPCoin thread they were having trouble compiling a copy of coiledcoind.

I don't know which one I am using, when I do "git pull" to see where I pull it from I get asked for username and password, so I think maybe whatever github repo I had been pulling it from is no longer up there or something.

I have archived the copy I am using, I would have added a checkpoint but my debug.log only shows some aux proofs of work found no normal ones and I am not sure if the aux ones would work as checkpoints.

Also, the thing totally lacks any checkpoints, the whole checkpoints array contents are commented out.

I have created a directory for CoiLedCoin at https://sourceforge.net/projects/galacticmilieu/files/

-MarkM-

it was me:
Quote
CLC: auxpow.cpp:127: fatal error: opening dependency file obj/nogui/auxpow.d: File not found
CLC source from: https://github.com/Tittiez/coiledcoin <-- any other source?
GRP: success -> 2 connections lol

another question, whats this: http://sourceforge.net/projects/galacticmilieu/files/RUCoin/


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: baggyp on March 13, 2013, 02:45:19 AM
I don't particularly have any incentive to respond to the scammers that I foiled, given the significant cost (in time) to do so. Nor do I have any financial loss or care particularly if people want to stop mining on Eligius because they were in on the scam (or any other reason). I will clarify that Eligius miners were not adversely impacted by this, and that the CLC mining involved only adding data that I hashed myself to my own transactions; and I was careful to ensure that nobody lost any confirmed CLC. If any Eligius miner wishes to inquire further, I will take the time to answer specific to-the-point questions which are signmessage'd with an active (ie, has mined in the past week) Eligius payout address that has earned at least 2000 TBC (5.36870912 BTC) over all time.

Eligius is a Bitcoin mining pool and I am, as always, committed to doing my best to contribute to and protect the Bitcoin ecosystem. Pyramid schemes built upon forks of the Bitcoin software ultimately discredit and harm Bitcoin's reputation. I hope CoiledCoin will be the last of such scams now that it is clear there are people (not just myself) willing to stand up to them. Namecoin alone demonstrates a legitimate, innovative use of Bitcoin technology, and while I don't personally agree with their ideals/goals, I see it as a good thing for Bitcoin and worth cooperating with.

cablepair, regarding Devcoin, I don't see any reason to treat it as different from any other scamcoin. I will at least discuss it with you on IRC before doing anything other than mining it with the almost-unmodified (zero txn fee, zero post-maturity delay) Devcoin client.

P.S. While the opposition seem to be very venemous and vocal, I have gotten a lot more positive support from a head-count perspective.
This is better than I could ever imagine: religious freakery mixed with golden calf worship really produces comedy gold.

Godminer-Jr is warning you: if you have a nice little research chain it would be sad to see it unable to process transactions. It has been written on the tablets revealed on Mt.Sinai: Thou shalt have none other chains before mine (Deuteronomy 5:4-21).

[/quote

"Thou shalt not post in the necrotic threads of times forgotten... Unless it amuses thee." (Bagz 13:37)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on March 13, 2013, 02:58:23 AM
This chain has been humming along nicely lately, not a very high difficulty and you can merged-mine it so what the heck eh.

There are not enough reasonably well behaved merged-mine-able coins in existence to really see how many one could reasonably mine at once, but this one seems well-behaved so it doesn't hurt to include it in the merge.

(i0coin on the other hand tended to eat 20+% of my 8 gigs of RAM and since yesterday is for some reason now eating about 40% (40+% yesterday, 39.9% right now).

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: K1773R on March 13, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
This chain has been humming along nicely lately, not a very high difficulty and you can merged-mine it so what the heck eh.

There are not enough reasonably well behaved merged-mine-able coins in existence to really see how many one could reasonably mine at once, but this one seems well-behaved so it doesn't hurt to include it in the merge.

(i0coin on the other hand tended to eat 20+% of my 8 gigs of RAM and since yesterday is for some reason now eating about 40% (40+% yesterday, 39.9% right now).

-MarkM-

im dropping i0coin soon, with every block it gets more insane (since the memleak in validating blocks). CLC is doing fine tou.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: iamrickrock on March 22, 2013, 11:16:35 PM
Is there a qt client for this? I want to do some test mining on it.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on March 23, 2013, 04:18:06 AM
I suspect it pre-dates qt, as it uses multicoin, which was a system intended to let you design coins in the config file without having to hack the code. I think qt came along later.

Maybe though once it is on some exchanges people might manage to rustle up some spare coin to make a bounty for updating it to base in on bitcoin-qt...

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: iamrickrock on March 23, 2013, 04:21:14 AM
I see ok thanks for the info


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on March 23, 2013, 04:53:32 AM
I suspect it pre-dates qt, as it uses multicoin, which was a system intended to let you design coins in the config file without having to hack the code. I think qt came along later.
The source I have has a 'qt' directory and it doesn't look like multicoin - it looks like it's based on the original bitcoin source.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on March 23, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
Darn you're right, I had been playing with GeistGeld and got confused.

CoiLedCoin isn't based on multicoin, GeistGeld is.

I guess if it is qt vintage then people should be able to compile it with qmake or qmake-qt4 or whatever.

(The qt gui thing even.)

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on March 23, 2013, 11:33:16 AM
Has anyone played with the OP_EVAL capability of CoiledCoin? This was the alternative to bitcoin's P2SH back when it was first discussed. CoiledCoin went and made every address use this which was supposed to result in some nice capabilities. I was curious if anyone would pick that up and run with it.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Balthazar on March 23, 2013, 12:59:38 PM
No, it's not alternative. P2SH & P2SH/CHV are alternatives to OP_EVAL, but not vice versa. ;)


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on March 28, 2013, 12:40:45 PM
This coin is a nice opportunity for small miners, as its difficulty right now is only 62.94940247 plus it can be merged mined so you don't even need to divert any hashing from other mainline coins (bitcoin and those that can be merged  mined alongside bitcoin).

Heck come to think of it, chances are good that terracoin inherited from bitcoin the ability to be the main chain in a merge, so possibly it can even be merged-mined alongside terracoin for people who have diverted hashing power from the main line to terracoin...

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: hod928 on April 25, 2013, 03:42:23 AM
Is there a client for windows?? I wouldent mind throwing my labtop into this for giggles


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Rubberduckie on April 25, 2013, 07:10:49 PM
Is there a client for windows?? I wouldent mind throwing my labtop into this for giggles

found a working link courtesy of http://www.deadcoin.com/2012/02/first-crypto-corpse-coiledcoin.html


http://goo.gl/wAWZN


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on April 25, 2013, 09:14:29 PM
I fired up my coiledcoin client a few weeks ago to see if it was still alive but noticed there were multiple chains. One client I connected with had a block count ahead of the blockchain explorer (http://darkgamex.ch:2751/chain/CoiledCoin), with different hashes for the blocks with the same numbers as the explorer, but another client I connected with on a different machine matched the block explorer. Neither chain reorg'd when connected to each other.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on May 05, 2013, 08:00:50 AM
I fired up my coiledcoin client a few weeks ago to see if it was still alive but noticed there were multiple chains. One client I connected with had a block count ahead of the blockchain explorer (http://darkgamex.ch:2751/chain/CoiledCoin), with different hashes for the blocks with the same numbers as the explorer, but another client I connected with on a different machine matched the block explorer. Neither chain reorg'd when connected to each other.
I did some analysis of two diverging coiledcoin chains. They diverged at block 179577. Both chains have hash 0277f8ea8189d5e18aabe669226375492fc58ec0d30b14a9b6cc0b79c1bab8ba as block 179576. But for block 179577 one chain has c4720651f8f96152894218250efad3266110b378689209b671f13c94285993f9 and the other e654dad298eeccbcd74e90804a5ac1583a875a4fd08ed4e90844e44cd6806e34.

So here's a question for the coiledcoin users (all 2 of you?). What is the output of:

Code:
coiledcoind getblockhash 179577

And what is your current block number:

Code:
coiledcoind getblockcount

I'm curious why it forked there. Some OP_EVAL transaction causing a fork maybe?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: MrWizard on May 05, 2013, 08:03:23 AM
Firing up coiledcoin-qt.exe  i'll let you know in 10 20 minutes. soon.  It's taking quite a while to sync up.

Edit:  This is going to take quite a while.  Log file shows a massive reorganization going on.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: alex_fun on May 05, 2013, 08:58:07 AM
Smalll change test coin is running, I think diff is small there. Also anyone plans to releae SHA3 currency? And if I for example really wanted to mine some coin with a friend I would simply restart it again and again till its still fun lol And if Luke did not process blocks others could still process them right? From what I understood even if someone got 51% they can only double spend their blocks not others since then they would have to resolve every block back in time right?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on May 05, 2013, 09:17:15 AM
Firing up coiledcoin-qt.exe  i'll let you know in 10 20 minutes. soon.  It's taking quite a while to sync up.

Edit:  This is going to take quite a while.  Log file shows a massive reorganization going on.
Thanks, it'll be interesting to see what happened. Both nodes on different chains that I run have all the blocks from the other chain but they're orphaned. Neither are doing a block reorg to the others chain though. Did coiledcoin have a limit to stop large reorgs?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 05, 2013, 09:32:40 AM
Both of my servers dvcstable01.devcoin.org and dvcstable02.devcoin.org get the same result:

./coiledcoind.sh getblockhash 179577
e654dad298eeccbcd74e90804a5ac1583a875a4fd08ed4e90844e44cd6806e34

./coiledcoind.sh getblockcount
195368

I thought most plans to watch for too-large re-orgs were going to go into don't do anything mode and display "please intervene or something" messages for operator to see,

I guess we can manually pick the longer chain and put a checkpoint at the divisive block-number but for sure it would be nice to find out what is really going on. Phase Of Moon (POM) errors are just so ... well... sacrificing goats to keep computers running was supposed to have gone out of fashion last millenium wasn't it? :)

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on May 05, 2013, 09:36:07 AM
./coiledcoind.sh getblockhash 179577
e654dad298eeccbcd74e90804a5ac1583a875a4fd08ed4e90844e44cd6806e34

./coiledcoind.sh getblockcount
195368
Thanks, that's what one of my nodes gets. The other has:

Code:
coiledcoind getblockhash 179577
c4720651f8f96152894218250efad3266110b378689209b671f13c94285993f9

coiledcoind getblockcount
183496

It hasn't seen a block since 18th April though so whatever node that was feeding it might be gone.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Sondey10mg on May 05, 2013, 09:39:09 AM
When i try to solomine my coiledcoin client (server) crashes. It's the only coin with that problem; Does someone know what's wrong?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: MrWizard on May 05, 2013, 09:43:16 AM
When i try to solomine my coiledcoin client (server) crashes. It's the only coin with that problem; Does someone know what's wrong?
Mine usually crashes when I try to solo mine before the block chain is completely done downloading.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: MrWizard on May 05, 2013, 09:45:12 AM
./coiledcoind.sh getblockhash 179577
e654dad298eeccbcd74e90804a5ac1583a875a4fd08ed4e90844e44cd6806e34

./coiledcoind.sh getblockcount
195368
Thanks, that's what one of my nodes gets. The other has:

Code:
coiledcoind getblockhash 179577
c4720651f8f96152894218250efad3266110b378689209b671f13c94285993f9

coiledcoind getblockcount
183496

It hasn't seen a block since 18th April though so whatever node that was feeding it might be gone.

I think I might have been connected to that last node. My last transaction was on 4/16/2013 with a total block count of 183148.  Looks like I am about to lose a lot of coins from my wallet.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on May 05, 2013, 09:50:25 AM
I think I might have been connected to that last node. My last transaction was on 4/16/2013 with a total block count of 183148.  Looks like I am about to lose a lot of coins from my wallet.
I'm curious why a reorg never happened. I've taken my node with what I assume is the dead chain offline and am trying to redownload a new blockchain. I'll see what one I end up getting.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Sondey10mg on May 05, 2013, 09:53:39 AM
When i try to solomine my coiledcoin client (server) crashes. It's the only coin with that problem; Does someone know what's wrong?
Mine usually crashes when I try to solo mine before the block chain is completely done downloading.

Strange, my client has a bug then. It is fully synchronised but says 'last block generated %n seconds ago'


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: MrWizard on May 05, 2013, 09:56:46 AM
Smalll change test coin is running, I think diff is small there. Also anyone plans to releae SHA3 currency? And if I for example really wanted to mine some coin with a friend I would simply restart it again and again till its still fun lol And if Luke did not process blocks others could still process them right? From what I understood even if someone got 51% they can only double spend their blocks not others since then they would have to resolve every block back in time right?
Well, don't connect to the block chain used by the above block explorer.  Its last block is dated ~15 days ago - 2013-04-20 13:06:52


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 05, 2013, 10:00:15 AM
I have a vague memory-of-a-memory of something about the BDB problems that led to the recent Bitcoin fork being able to abort a branch due to a BDB error, the error being handled in such a way the block was treated as bad instead of the system realising it had no real idea whether the block was actually bad because it simply ran out of BDB locks when trying to work with the problem.

That is, a re-org attempt would run out of locks and think like "oh I guess I was fine without a re-org".

It was why the bitcoin fork was going the way it was going I think, nodes with low BDB lock count would crap out trying to take one path of the fork and assume it was a bad block instead of realising they didn't have enough locks to be able to really process the thing to find out it was not a bad block just a bad (too low) BDB locks count limit.

We need to apply the merged mining patches to a recent but good/stable bitcoin to make a "bitcoin with ONLY the merged mining patches applied" repository, then each merged mined coin can individually fork off of that to add their own unique patches that make them the particular merged mined chain that they are. They could all do with a code update/upgrade.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on May 05, 2013, 11:19:02 AM
I've taken my node with what I assume is the dead chain offline and am trying to redownload a new blockchain. I'll see what one I end up getting.
My redownload has now got the non-dead chain. Hopefully that one will disappear as nodes using it go offline.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 05, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
We really need someone to apply merged mining patches to bitcoin and make just that into a github repo.

Maybe all the merged mined coins could gang up to offer a multi-currency bounty for that or something?

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: afroman1131 on May 14, 2013, 05:00:39 AM
Does anyone see this coin possibly making a comeback>?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: doublec on May 14, 2013, 05:02:20 AM
Does anyone see this coin possibly making a comeback>?
If an exchange took it, possibly, If not, probably not.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Kyune on May 15, 2013, 01:52:19 AM
Seed node?  My client doesn't connect.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 15, 2013, 01:53:56 AM
dvcstable01.dvcnode.org

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: nesic1 on May 15, 2013, 02:10:02 AM
where to download windows client, also any website for basic information, sha/scrypt


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: RichG on May 27, 2013, 03:45:45 AM
I am sure it all got taken down after the 51% attack.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: RichG on May 27, 2013, 03:55:24 AM
Anyone want to help me out with a few node IPs?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 27, 2013, 03:58:19 AM
dvcstable01.dvcnode.org and dvcstable02.dvcnode.org

But that old software might not take hostnames, only raw IP addresses: 198.154.60.183 and 198.154.60.61

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on January 04, 2014, 10:14:46 PM
This one is still running just fine.

I guess some day it, like all the merged mined coins, will be needing rsnel's RAM-usage fix that has already been applied to several of the merged mined coins, but so far it has been humming along nicely for years without it.

Has anyone actually tried the OP_EVAL thing?

Afterall enabling that so it can be tested was part of the purpose of this coin.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: eroxors on February 04, 2014, 02:53:27 PM
This one is still running just fine.

I guess some day it, like all the merged mined coins, will be needing rsnel's RAM-usage fix that has already been applied to several of the merged mined coins, but so far it has been humming along nicely for years without it.

Has anyone actually tried the OP_EVAL thing?

Afterall enabling that so it can be tested was part of the purpose of this coin.

-MarkM-


My ram usage is about 7GB with this coin, doesn't really go higher than that. If I can figure out jaycoin's pool code, I'll put up a private pool so it can be merge-mined for anyone who wants coiledcoin.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: eroxors on March 14, 2014, 02:40:48 PM
Can someone (Luke? Mark?) elaborate on the problem Luke described as a result of the attack? Are all blocks prior to Luke's attack invalid/unspendable, or is it just his blocks? How many blocks are we talking about?

I show the current block count as just above 400k, which is short of what it should be according to makomk's target.

-Eric


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: mmpool on May 08, 2014, 12:41:19 PM
I guess some day it, like all the merged mined coins, will be needing rsnel's RAM-usage fix that has already been applied to several of the merged mined coins, but so far it has been humming along nicely for years without it.
I have attempted to apply rsnel's RAM usage fix. Repository is on github (https://github.com/mmpool/coiledcoin) if you want to try it. It's the topmost commit. I've successfully downloaded the blockchain with it using a few hundred MB of RAM. I have not yet tried mining with it.

Edit: Tested merge mining, and mined about 10 blocks, it seems to work.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on June 29, 2015, 01:36:37 AM
This and GeistGeld were why I had to run my own merged mining: because mmpool did not include them in its merge.

I used p2pool so as not to be solo-mining the bitcoins, but once I got KnC Neptunes I ran into problems, I could not get anywhere near the full hashing power out of my Neptune on my p2pool.

So I ended up using mpool, but still had half a terahash or so of hashing pointed at my p2pool in order to continue to get some coiledcoins and geistgeld.

Unfortunately I had not gotten around to trying your fixed coiledcoin until just now, when I had been forced to take down my p2pool because of a mandatory upgrade that refuses to work with ancient bitcoind. My whole merged mining setup was on third party servers that were still stuck on Fedora 17, long story. Could not build new bitcoind so cannot use new p2pool so end of merged mining for me for now.

It would be really nice if you could add coiledcoin to mmpool's merge. Even nicer would be if you could also add geistgeld. Heck even if you cannot have it do geistgeld full speed it'd be something, and maybe it would be possible to work out what really is the limit on block speed, since geistgeld was intended as an experiment to see how fast blocks could, in practice, be run. If geistgeld really is too fast then maybe what speed to slow it down to to make it practical could be worked out and it could be updated to that speed?

I am running your fixed coiledcoin right now on Ubuntu systems. I can build/run bitcoind on those so once I get all set up with all the coin daemons I will be able to run p2pool so that I can at least experiment with low hashing power. No one seems to know why my Neptune could not run at full speed pointed at p2pool but I can point some other hashers at it as I have been doing ever since my Neptunes started arriving.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: mmpool on June 29, 2015, 06:59:11 AM
I am running your fixed coiledcoin right now on Ubuntu systems. I can build/run bitcoind on those so once I get all set up with all the coin daemons I will be able to run p2pool so that I can at least experiment with low hashing power. No one seems to know why my Neptune could not run at full speed pointed at p2pool but I can point some other hashers at it as I have been doing ever since my Neptunes started arriving.
I've thought about running coiledcoin but it has no traction so I didn't. In the past adding a coin was painful since it required users to re-register to gain the new coin. But now I can take the approach I took with unobtanium and give miners a default address so it's possible. I'll give it some thought.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on June 29, 2015, 02:40:56 PM
Chickens and eggs. No miners = no traction. :)

Especially around here, where every time a coin comes out that does not involve mining its announce thread starts accumulating compliants and scam-accusations!

Admittedly exchanges also give traction, but there are advantages to not being on exchanges, because regulators are more likely to question a game-currency's status as being "just a token used in games" if exchanges for it officially exist. (Notice that until quite recently most/all large MMORPGs forbade buying/selling game stuff for real money? Until a year or few ago some big name one put a real money market right into its game, likely after racking up oodles of expensive legal fees...)

Player groups such as guilds, parties, associations and such like GRouPcoin not just because it has GRouP in the name but also because it does not "officially" have exchanges to/from "real money"...

CoiLedCoin thus far has that same "niche advantage".

Hunter coin's merged mining in SHA256 never worked for me so I gave up trying to include it in my merge.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 24, 2018, 11:07:12 AM
I notice an increase in nodes, not sure how many actual new users that is but several new nodes came online recently. Same with GRouPcoin.

It is certainly not a dead coin.

Check out my lists of supported assets for Horizon and Stellar networks at http://makemoney.knotwork.com/

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Ycekezuv on May 24, 2018, 11:35:38 AM
In my opinion, there is no point in pouring it into it.  The system is completely unfinished!


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on April 05, 2019, 09:50:25 AM

Well the blockchain IS still moving, albeit slowly, and the players who use it have started thinking about starting a Civilisation whose currency it will be so that they can support it with the full backing of an actual "nation" in the game. I do not know how long it will take for the difficulty to adjust downward enough for the blockchain to move at a more reasonable speed, or for more hashing power to be applied to get it moving better, but players are not particuarly concerned about the slowness of the blockchain since most activity will probably take place on the HORIZON and Stellar platforms.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on June 21, 2019, 02:49:12 PM

CoiLedCoin (CLC) can be traded on the Stellar network, see http://makemoney.knotwork.com/stellar/

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DaveF on October 21, 2019, 02:26:15 AM
Does anyone have any links to the wallets?
Someone should post them someplace. Yeah, it's an old just about dead coin but it's still an important part of crypto history.

-Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on February 12, 2020, 01:26:25 AM
Not sure if this is really the copy I am still using, but I have one in my Galactic Milieu sourceforge account:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/galacticmilieu/files/CoiLedCoin/

Hmm actually I guess I am pretty sure that is NOT the one I am using, as consulting my source directory on compiling machine I find this:

Code:
markm@DotThree:~/src/Cryptocoins/coiledcoin-git/.git$ cat config
[core]
        repositoryformatversion = 0
        filemode = true
        bare = false
        logallrefupdates = true
[remote "origin"]
        url = https://github.com/mmpool/coiledcoin.git
        fetch = +refs/heads/*:refs/remotes/origin/*
[branch "master"]
        remote = origin
        merge = refs/heads/master
markm@DotThree:~/src/Cryptocoins/coiledcoin-git/.git$

So I guess I am using the one the mmpool (merged mining pool) guy made way back when.

Located at https://github.com/mmpool/coiledcoin

As it seems to be 8 years old, maybe it actually IS the same one; the package on my sourceforge might just be a tar.gz copy of my coiledcoin-git directory.

-MarkM-

Does anyone have any links to the wallets?
Someone should post them someplace. Yeah, it's an old just about dead coin but it's still an important part of crypto history.

-Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DaveF on February 12, 2020, 12:47:39 PM
Not sure if this is really the copy I am still using, but I have one in my Galactic Milieu sourceforge account:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/galacticmilieu/files/CoiLedCoin/

Hmm actually I guess I am pretty sure that is NOT the one I am using, as consulting my source directory on compiling machine I find this:

Code:
markm@DotThree:~/src/Cryptocoins/coiledcoin-git/.git$ cat config
[core]
        repositoryformatversion = 0
        filemode = true
        bare = false
        logallrefupdates = true
[remote "origin"]
        url = https://github.com/mmpool/coiledcoin.git
        fetch = +refs/heads/*:refs/remotes/origin/*
[branch "master"]
        remote = origin
        merge = refs/heads/master
markm@DotThree:~/src/Cryptocoins/coiledcoin-git/.git$

So I guess I am using the one the mmpool (merged mining pool) guy made way back when.

Located at https://github.com/mmpool/coiledcoin

As it seems to be 8 years old, maybe it actually IS the same one; the package on my sourceforge might just be a tar.gz copy of my coiledcoin-git directory.

-MarkM-

Does anyone have any links to the wallets?
Someone should post them someplace. Yeah, it's an old just about dead coin but it's still an important part of crypto history.

-Dave

Thanks, I will take a look at the code.
On a side note I picked up coiledcoin.org and coiledcoin.com going to see if I can get a copy of the original site.
It's probably a waste of time, but since it was an interesting piece of crypto history I want to keep it around.

-Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DaveF on February 14, 2020, 12:11:52 AM
Hmmm, will not compile.
Going to have to figure out what my system does not like about the old code.
Threw too many errors to post going to go do some googling.
Do you have anything compiled I can grab while I work on it?

Thanks,
Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gjhiggins on February 14, 2020, 12:05:11 PM
Going to have to figure out what my system does not like about the old code.

There are a host of forward-incompatible issues to be resolved (Qt4->5, Boost1.4->1.6, OpenSSL1.0->1.1). Perhaps a better approach that acknowledges the historical focus is to try compiling on a VM hosting a suitable vintage OS (OS X 10.5, Ubuntu 14.04 or Windows 7).

Cheers

Graham.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DaveF on February 14, 2020, 12:25:22 PM
Going to have to figure out what my system does not like about the old code.

There are a host of forward-incompatible issues to be resolved (Qt4->5, Boost1.4->1.6, OpenSSL1.0->1.1). Perhaps a better approach that acknowledges the historical focus is to try compiling on a VM hosting a suitable vintage OS (OS X 10.5, Ubuntu 14.04 or Windows 7).

Cheers

Graham.


I did try on a 14.04 but it was not a "clean" setup I had already installed some stuff to compile other things.
Probably try spinning up another one with just what is on the install CDs / DVDs and see if that works without trying for dependencies from outside sources. Most of which you cant easily find anymore.

Thanks,
Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: gjhiggins on February 14, 2020, 02:18:37 PM
I did try on a 14.04 but it was not a "clean" setup
Works for me on a clean 14.04.
Code:
sudo apt-get install qt4-qmake libqt4-dev build-essential libboost-dev libboost-system-dev libboost-filesystem-dev libboost-program-options-dev libboost-thread-dev libssl-dev

I used this install_db4.sh script to get and compile db4.8:
Code:
#!/bin/sh

# Install libdb4.8 (Berkeley DB).

export LC_ALL=C
set -e

if [ -z "${1}" ]; then
  echo "Usage: $0 <base-dir> [<extra-bdb-configure-flag> ...]"
  echo
  echo "Must specify a single argument: the directory in which db4 will be built."
  echo "This is probably \`pwd\` if you're at the root of the bitcoin repository."
  exit 1
fi

expand_path() {
  echo "$(cd "${1}" && pwd -P)"
}

BDB_PREFIX="$(expand_path ${1})/db4"; shift;
BDB_VERSION='db-4.8.30.NC'
BDB_HASH='12edc0df75bf9abd7f82f821795bcee50f42cb2e5f76a6a281b85732798364ef'
BDB_URL="https://download.oracle.com/berkeley-db/${BDB_VERSION}.tar.gz"

check_exists() {
  which "$1" >/dev/null 2>&1
}

sha256_check() {
  # Args: <sha256_hash> <filename>
  #
  if check_exists sha256sum; then
    echo "${1}  ${2}" | sha256sum -c
  elif check_exists sha256; then
    if [ "$(uname)" = "FreeBSD" ]; then
      sha256 -c "${1}" "${2}"
    else
      echo "${1}  ${2}" | sha256 -c
    fi
  else
    echo "${1}  ${2}" | shasum -a 256 -c
  fi
}

http_get() {
  # Args: <url> <filename> <sha256_hash>
  #
  # It's acceptable that we don't require SSL here because we manually verify
  # content hashes below.
  #
  if [ -f "${2}" ]; then
    echo "File ${2} already exists; not downloading again"
  elif check_exists curl; then
    curl --insecure --retry 5 "${1}" -o "${2}"
  else
    wget --no-check-certificate "${1}" -O "${2}"
  fi

  sha256_check "${3}" "${2}"
}

mkdir -p "${BDB_PREFIX}"
http_get "${BDB_URL}" "${BDB_VERSION}.tar.gz" "${BDB_HASH}"
tar -xzvf ${BDB_VERSION}.tar.gz -C "$BDB_PREFIX"
cd "${BDB_PREFIX}/${BDB_VERSION}/"

# Apply a patch necessary when building with clang and c++11 (see https://community.oracle.com/thread/3952592)
CLANG_CXX11_PATCH_URL='https://gist.githubusercontent.com/LnL7/5153b251fd525fe15de69b67e63a6075/raw/7778e9364679093a32dec2908656738e16b6bdcb/clang.patch'
CLANG_CXX11_PATCH_HASH='7a9a47b03fd5fb93a16ef42235fa9512db9b0829cfc3bdf90edd3ec1f44d637c'
http_get "${CLANG_CXX11_PATCH_URL}" clang.patch "${CLANG_CXX11_PATCH_HASH}"
patch -p2 < clang.patch

cd build_unix/

"${BDB_PREFIX}/${BDB_VERSION}/dist/configure" \
  --enable-cxx --disable-shared --disable-replication --with-pic --prefix="${BDB_PREFIX}" \
  "${@}"

make install

echo
echo "db4 build complete."
echo
echo 'When compiling bitcoind, run `./configure` in the following way:'
echo
echo "  export BDB_PREFIX='${BDB_PREFIX}'"
echo '  ./configure BDB_LIBS="-L${BDB_PREFIX}/lib -ldb_cxx-4.8" BDB_CFLAGS="-I${BDB_PREFIX}/include" ...'

I copied install_db4.sh into the contrib directory and from there, executed
Code:
./install_db4.sh `pwd`

Then I edited coiledcoin-qt.pro as follows:
Code:
diff --git a/coiledcoin-qt.pro b/coiledcoin-qt.pro
index 2e1f26f..26739e8 100644
--- a/coiledcoin-qt.pro
+++ b/coiledcoin-qt.pro
@@ -1,5 +1,5 @@
 TEMPLATE = app
-TARGET =
+TARGET = CoiledCoin-Qt
 VERSION = 0.5.99
 INCLUDEPATH += src src/json src/qt
 DEFINES += QT_GUI BOOST_THREAD_USE_LIB
@@ -251,6 +251,7 @@ isEmpty(BOOST_THREAD_LIB_SUFFIX) {
 
 isEmpty(BDB_LIB_PATH) {
     macx:BDB_LIB_PATH = /opt/local/lib/db48
+    unix:BDB_LIB_PATH = ./contrib/db4/lib
 }
 
 isEmpty(BDB_LIB_SUFFIX) {
@@ -259,6 +260,7 @@ isEmpty(BDB_LIB_SUFFIX) {
 
 isEmpty(BDB_INCLUDE_PATH) {
     macx:BDB_INCLUDE_PATH = /opt/local/include/db48
+    unix:BDB_INCLUDE_PATH = ./contrib/db4/include
 }
 
 isEmpty(BOOST_LIB_PATH) {
@@ -295,7 +297,7 @@ LIBS += -lboost_system$$BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX -lboost_filesystem$$BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX -l
 contains(RELEASE, 1) {
     !windows:!macx {
         # Linux: turn dynamic linking back on for c/c++ runtime libraries
-        LIBS += -Wl,-Bdynamic
+        LIBS += -Wl,-Bdynamic -ldl
     }
 }
 

I ran qmake with
Code:
qmake USE_UPNP=- USE_QRCODE=- USE_SSL=- RELEASE=1
and got a compiled Qt client.

HTH

Cheers

Graham


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on February 28, 2020, 06:53:15 AM
 I almost never make a GUI of any coin, I run daemons.

I am on Ubuntu 16.04 LTS still, presumably I was able to compile the darmon on that.

I probably never even tried to build the GUI.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: sorryforthat on May 21, 2020, 05:36:31 PM
I was able to compile. Does anyone have any nodes?


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 27, 2020, 07:01:47 PM

LFM.knotwork.com aka DVCstable01.dvcnode.org

It will know of others presumably.

It runs all my coins so should have the other related coins too.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: sorryforthat on June 09, 2020, 04:51:43 AM

LFM.knotwork.com aka DVCstable01.dvcnode.org

It will know of others presumably.

It runs all my coins so should have the other related coins too.

-MarkM-


Thank you. I was able to get it synced. 22GB+ Blockchain, took about a week. I have two more nodes that can help speed up any other users looking to download the blockchain.

62.171.180.0
164.68.101.222


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DaveF on June 09, 2020, 11:34:35 AM
I was able to compile. Does anyone have any nodes?

Did you use the directions that gjhiggins posted or some other method?

I tried following the steps that he posted but it did not work. Then corona happened and I have had no time to really dig into it. Probably something that I did wrong but till I can carve out a couple of hours of free time it just is not going to happen
Also, what OS?

-Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: sorryforthat on June 09, 2020, 09:29:23 PM
I was able to compile. Does anyone have any nodes?

Did you use the directions that gjhiggins posted or some other method?

I tried following the steps that he posted but it did not work. Then corona happened and I have had no time to really dig into it. Probably something that I did wrong but till I can carve out a couple of hours of free time it just is not going to happen
Also, what OS?

-Dave

I just made the daemon with the standard commands
Code:
make -f makefile.unix

Out of curiosity, I just tried to compile the linux qt wallet. I was able to compile on 16.04 just fine. To be honest, I did not do anything out the ordinary. I just ran

Code:
qmake
make

https://i.imgur.com/PVWUvbw.png

Here is a link that contains the qt wallet built on 16.04 and I also included the daemon.

https://mega.nz/file/aEAS2AwQ#oHNoHiK8v2yZi85rf_gmVJ3DNovvEprpLsOo4VAYJgo (https://mega.nz/file/aEAS2AwQ#oHNoHiK8v2yZi85rf_gmVJ3DNovvEprpLsOo4VAYJgo)

Just so that we have some documentation for others who may have issues in the future. Can you please let us know what errors you came across, so that we can provide some solutions.

If anyone can build a windows wallet, it would be greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: DaveF on June 09, 2020, 09:47:39 PM

I just made the daemon with the standard commands
Code:
make -f makefile.unix

Out of curiosity, I just tried to compile the linux qt wallet. I was able to compile on 16.04 just fine. To be honest, I did not do anything out the ordinary. I just ran

Code:
qmake
make

https://i.imgur.com/PVWUvbw.png

Here is a link that contains the qt wallet built on 16.04 and I also included the daemon. (both links are the same .tar file)

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=18308372139730421498 (http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=18308372139730421498)
https://easyupload.io/djkizk (https://easyupload.io/djkizk)

Just so that we have some documentation for others who may have issues in the future. Can you please let us know what errors you came across, so that we can provide some solutions.

If anyone can build a windows wallet, it would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks for the download links.
I really don't remember the errors it was 3+ months ago. I kind of remember this but it could be wrong:
The 14.04 which I admit had a lot of oddball stuff installed looked like it compiled but it would not run. Gave a bunch of errors.
The 18.04 gave a ton of cannot find this package or dependency errors.

Work was getting busy with a before lock-down rush so I never did anything more. If I have time I will spin up the VMs that I tried to do it on and see what errors I got.

Thanks again and stay safe.

-Dave


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: sorryforthat on June 09, 2020, 10:09:25 PM

Thanks for the download links.
I really don't remember the errors it was 3+ months ago. I kind of remember this but it could be wrong:
The 14.04 which I admit had a lot of oddball stuff installed looked like it compiled but it would not run. Gave a bunch of errors.
The 18.04 gave a ton of cannot find this package or dependency errors.

Work was getting busy with a before lock-down rush so I never did anything more. If I have time I will spin up the VMs that I tried to do it on and see what errors I got.

Thanks again and stay safe.

-Dave

No worries. Let me know if you have any issues with those files. I compiled on a VPS and then ran them on a VM on my windows machine. So it should work fine as long as you get all the depends. Also, replaced the previous wallet links with a Mega link. The others expire after 30 days and I want it to be available longer.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on June 10, 2020, 06:37:54 PM

Many/most old coins use an old Berkely DB for the wallet, as Bitcoin still does.

So I usually first use the instructions for Bitcoin, involving acticvating a repository that holds those as well as bitcoin itself, to get that old BDB 4.8 installed.

After that often old coins compile fine, at least the daemon; I almost never even attempt to build a GUI, since I mostly run coins on machines I "ssh" and 'sftp" to.

-MarkM-


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: sorryforthat on June 11, 2020, 12:31:05 AM
I was able to mine some. I merge mined it for a bit and it was working without any issues. If anyone would like some to play around with, give me your address.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: Hairynipples on June 11, 2020, 01:55:07 AM
I'd forgotten about this thread and what an absolute douchebag Luck dash jnr was when the first few early alts started appearing, He was very vocal about the fact that hated any blockchain that wasn't bitcoin.

I posted on page 10 of this thread as I was pretty pissed off with his behaviour i.e. using his own pools miners to 51% attack the chain.


Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on July 04, 2020, 05:29:37 PM
Well the coin is definitely alive and in use, it not only has its own "treasury" on the HORIZON network, account NHZ-XDR9-Y9WL-8E3Y-88M35, but is also implemented as a "reserve currency" that other such "treasuries" can use so that they can all count holdings of CLC toward the value of their own currency.

So far not a lot of them have actually done so, mostly I think it is the other currencies that were also implemented into the "treasuries" system lately that incorporated some CLC into their "treasury" since a bunch of the newly-implemented ones co-operated somewhat in getting themselves all set up.

This puts them a little ahead in terms of implementation of the "New Roman Denarius" that most-recently began to be implemented in that the NRD is so far only implemented as having a "treasury" from which to calculate its value and has not yet been added into those calculations as being itself a "reserve currency" for use in other "treasuries".

The "treasuries" system seems to work reasonably well after all these years in development but is still being tweaked, the current set of changes involves phasing out the use of shares in "treasuries", particularly the use of "finance corp" shares such as GFC (General Financial Corp) shares, mostly because such shares, particularly GFC itself, have over the years of accumulating interest on debts become quite strong "leverage" items so we are phasing out the use of them in "treasuries" to limit the affect of all that interest on the values of all the "treasury" based currencies. Instead the "treasuries" will need to actually put some of whatever folks pay their debts with into the "treasury" if they want any of those earnings to count toward their "treasury" and thus toward the calculated relative value of their currency.

I have just now finished calculating the "Latest Rates" include-file, http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc and uploaded it, am currently uploading the various tables and plots of historical values generated from it, it shows CLC's latest value in DeVCoins as CLCrate=34.94987343

(That is how many DeVCoins one CLC coin is computed to be worth based on the relative values of all the "treasuries" based currencies.)

-MarkM-



Title: Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL!
Post by: markm on May 11, 2021, 12:19:25 AM
CLC/XLM and CLC/DVC are set up on the Stellar platform.

For CLC (CoiLedCoin) on the Stellar platform see  http://makemoney.knotwork.com/stellar/clc/ ( Explorer: https://stellar.expert/explorer/public/asset/CLC-GBHAQ252S4Z4AQOM4BWIRC3UHAOJIKCZQBUJGD336YH2O7W2NKRXMHA5 )

For DVC (DeVCoin) on the Stellar platform see http://makemoney.knotwork.com/stellar/dvc/ ( Explorer: https://stellar.expert/explorer/public/asset/DVC-GBHAQ252S4Z4AQOM4BWIRC3UHAOJIKCZQBUJGD336YH2O7W2NKRXMHA5 )

Since this threas seems to date back to before there was an "announcements" section, I have started an [ANN] thrad for CLC at

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5336604.0

-MarkM-