Bitcoin Forum

So I'v seen a few threads about building a bitcoin island

But the only territory that is unclaimed except for Antartica territories is Bir Tawil

It's basically sand, nothing else

BUT

High temperatures, plenty of sunny time means paradise for the crypto community

Why?

Setting up solar panels with maximum usage (so much sunny hours :D) and generating free electricity to build massive space for mining

Possibility of creating a cex.io like website and selling mining GH/s etc. to acquire money for this project

What do you guys think?

2060 km2, a lot more then a 10sq km2 island to build or a 0.2 sq km2 island to purchase :)

Egyptian soldiers are present in Bir Tawil. You will have to expel them, to claim the territory. A status quo is being maintained between Egypt and Sudan for some time now. I don't think they will welcome unusual visitors.

May be we could purchase it from Egypt and Sudan?

And there is a reason why both of the nations don't want this place:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Map_of_Halaib_Triangle-en.png/320px-Map_of_Halaib_Triangle-en.png

I dont think the location is ideal.

it could probably be purchased or we could inquire the Egyptian goverment if we could form a country there under their protectorate?

the only unclaimed location other then this is Antartica

and don't think we would have enough sunny hours for solar panels there :D

Well, to be fair it is claimed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westarctica
However, I highly doubt the guy who claims it will do much if we claim it as well.

How about building a few earthships on antarctica? Since it's solid ground there would be possible to place the nation under ground!
Solar panels would work if we were able to store the electricity generated during the summers (around december) since antarctica has midnight sun for a time every year.

interesting

but isn't Bir Tawil more ideal?

it's definitely hoter and therefore generating more electricity

besides, it's closer to civilisation and we could gain some tourists

we could be in some sort of a relationship with Egypt like Vatican is with Italy so we can have free travel between our countries and therefore having tourists that come to Egypt visit us and Egypt will have tourists that visit us to visit them :)

Good luck, there is a high chance you will be kidnapped in bir tawil and your head will chop up for being an infidel.

No. In total, there are three unclaimed regions in the earth's surface.

They are:

1) Bir Tawil
2) Antarctica
3) International waters

The 3rd option is more viable. Check this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=556831.0

I know that, I wasn't clear enough as I thought about territory with a physical surface on which we can step on without being Jesus :D

No. Bir Tawil would just be stupid to claim. That would be way to dangerous. Also we'd have problems with getting water.
Antarctica might not be ideal, but it should be possible if we had enough money. At least we wouldn't have any problems with water supplies thanks to all the ice, growing could be done under gigantic glass roofs, or simply just under fluorescent lamps. The soil needed we could import or take from the antarctic ground (I don't know how fertile it is though). Energy could be created using solar panels, PowerBuoys and wind turbines. The buildings would also need to be heavy isolated. I think that would be the best option for us.

The UN prohibits human settlement in Antarctica, with the exception of research stations. So you'll have a very tough time establishing a colony in the Antarctic ice sheet.

Yeah, but why would we care about the UN in this particular matter? While we build it we could claim it was for scientific purposes, and then there would be nothing they could do about it.
Also, antarctica has some dry spots where it would be ideal to build the nation.

They will send in the UN peacekeepers and you will be jailed for the rest of your life for destroying the delicate ecology of Antarctica. So, unless you want to go to prison, I would advice you to stay out.

Why would it be stupid?
If we got permission from the Egyptian goverment why not?
Reasons why Egypt could allow us to do this
1.We would promise to build no army
2.They would have military acess to our country
3.We would have almost no borders (as Vatican with Italy) and therfore tourists that come visit us will definitely go visit Egyptian spots making us both prosper
4.We would only have economical independence, everything rest we would leave for Egypt
So basically we would be an expansion of their country but the only thing se would request is economical independence meaning no taxes, bitcoin as official currency etc.
5.We would state that our country will be eternally greatful for their generosity
And will always do only what is good to enhance our brotherhood
6. And one of the most important
Almost everything we need we would import from them making them prosper even more (such as water,food,etc.)
This isn't planned as a big nation but more of a few people living there and getting rich from mining power

Floating island on international waters.  :)

Short answer:
1. No, they wouldn't.
2. No, I wouldn't.
3. No, it wouldn't.

Long answer:
1.
No they would not send peacekeepers. First of all it's not illegal to claim antarctica, however a few nations (for example the US) will not recognize any claims.
That however doesn't make it illegal to build a nation there. The Antarctic Treaty System (ATS) only applies to nations which have signed the treaty, which we will not (since that could take away our own right to our own existence).
2 and 3.
They would not jail me from destroying anything. We would not destroy the ecology, the ice covers would still be there, and we would not use any fossil fuels and such that could contaminate the surface. It's not illegal to destroy the ecology of antarctica anyway, even while doing so would be completely unnecessary and stupid.

I don't think neither Egypt or Sudan would be willing to let us have the territory. And there most of the plan fails, since both of those nations are willing to kill any occupiers.
Why don't we go with the "buy a Greek island" plan and place some miners there?
The problem with that would be how to keep the floating island stable. International waters can be quite harsh.

they could be okay mostly because we would be under their authority and would import everything from them
that is what they need, it's benefiting them
why would they refuse?

yeah, but the greek island is 0.2sq km while Bir Tawil is 2060 sq km :D

but if you insist.. :D

As stated in all these threads, nations rarely accept someone stealing their territory. And this area is not only claimed by one nation, but by two. And it's quite big as well!
So, honestly, I think the greek island idea is a lot easier to go through with! ;)

it's not claimed by any nation rather then 2!

if any of them wanted it they would of taken it by now..

No, because if one of them seriously attempt to take it, it will unarguably lead to a full scale war in that area. And neither Egypt or Sudan wants that.

that's why we can take it

if we take it and Egypt takes it won't it lead to an all out war

if we take it and Sudan takes it won't it lead to an all out war?

For reference Bir Tawil (arabic) means long (water) well the zone is unclaimed officialy but there are soldiers in the region.

Solar panels is not a good solution due to the temperature, but Solar thermal power is (better than solar panel imo) plus I'm not sure about this the region should have great wind tunnels so Wind power should be another solution.

but there are some other serious issues, like pirates that have quite the numbers in the region, also it is a very instable and poor region (Sudan is in the middle of a civile war with armed groups and separatist and what's not. The best option for is to built an Island in international waters, near in a strategic zone, I think near the shore of Morocco is not a bad choice, as you can get the work force easly, you are in the middle of major fiber optic lines (between EU/Africa and the US (no NSA Control)) , the weather is not bad, and you can get plenty of energy being it, solar, wind, and hydraulic using ocean currents) the other option would be the pacific, but it doesn't have the same advantages

hm, interesting

I understand the danger

but there is no other territory with such volume we could take

that's why it's so appealing

Antarctica is bigger, safer AND we can take it! It's a bit cold though... ;)

Antarctica is impossible from a technological stand point (energy, temperatures and seasons), unless of course you want to live with Hitler and his scret base in antarctica, maybe he can take you in his Hanebu to the dark side of the moon (which is not dark actually)

But anyways if you can set a permanent base in Arctanctica, setting one in Mars shouldn't be an issue (apart from getting stuff to Mars )

they will not allow us

That only applies to countries that has signed the treaty. Which we won't. Anyway, non of the nations have the right to deny our claim either. Also, if they disagree with our decision they can't do anything since according to the treaty, no military activity is allowed on Antarctica. I don't see what could possibly stop us? (except for money)

hmm

you made a point there

but it's Antarctica, it's -70C :D

who would want to live here? :D

altough, yeah, nice temperature so our miners don't overheat :D

but we'll have a hard time acquiring free electricity

In the coldest place on Antarctica the average temperature is -55°C. The costal areas however is much warmer. During the winters the average temperatures is around −18 °C, while during the summers it's about 0°C, and sometimes even more.

Who would want to live there? Well, people who feels this is a cool concept and people who have no future in their current countries would probably at least consider it for example.

And no, we would not have to worry about miners overheating! :)

The electricity, as I've said earlier, we'll get from solar power, wind turbines and power buoys, and with the right amount of them they should be able to support us.

Antarctica is not impossible at all.
Mars would not be impossible either, but it would be a lot harder.
Apart from getting materials to Mars, there would be problems with food and water supplies. And of course, we must not forget the problem with oxygen. And the risk of meteor crashes is much higher thanks to its thin atmosphere. Oh, the atmosphere would also be a big problem since it doesn't stop much of the cosmic radiation. So simply, it would be a LOT harder.
So, lets not mix apples and pears, shall we? ;)

yeah, but low efficiency of the solar panels because of not so many sunny hours..

we would need a larger investment but it's worth it since we'll be saving a lot because we're not building our own island :D

@about Mars

let's stay realistic, food transfer would be too expensive, not mentioning other things + oxygen

it's not only -70° but 6 months nights and also blizzard no supply can reach you for over half a year and no infrastructure there

that put solar panels out of the option :D

lol

is there enough wind for wind power?

also curious if there are parts which aren't frozen and unclaimed

Yes, but six months of night also means six months of day.
Sure, during that 6 months night the solar panels will not produce any electricity, but thanks to the power buoys and wind turbines we might have enough anyway. We could also produce biogas to use if we don't produce enough with our renewable systems, since it is hard to store the excessive energy for a time as long as six months. It's always good to have a backup system.

seems a bit too expensive

there isn't enough sunlight to produce a lot of electricity I think even the sun is there..

I'm pretty sure it is.

The biggest problem would be where to place it. It'd have to be placed in an "Antarctic oasis", an area that's not covered with snow or ice. However, all of those "oases" I can find is placed in territory claimed by other nations. The other option would be to build it inside a mountain in unclaimed territory, but that'd be to destroy the antarctic nature + rock is not very fertile.
So, that leaves us with only one option, to build in claimed territory. However, since most countries in the world does not recognize any claims on antarctica that should not be a problem. The country that claims the area we'll build on will not be able to do anything either, since military operations are strictly forbidden.
Here's a list of possible places for this settlement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_oasis#Geography

It is impossible, 6 month of night during polar winter at -70°C with nothing that can give you supply, you'll need a closed heated ecosystem to grow you own food which requires tons of energy

You can grow food on Mars and water is abundant on Mars and you can create a micro ecosystem CO2 is abundant in Mars plants will creat oxygene trough photosynthesis as there is abundant sunlight you just a green house to creat decent pressure, and yes you'll need space suite on Mars but you can creat oxygen being trough plants or water and air recycling and co2, as for meteorite, earth has more gravity and thus it is bound to attract more meteorites than Mars, also Atmosphere only burn small meteorites while for big ones it either makes them explode or split which is more devastating as for cosmic radiation is a non issue if the habitat is underground

it would really be interesting to see what would happen and how would other nations react to this :D

Yeah, I think they'd get pretty upset, but thanks to their own treaty, they can't do anything about it! :D
Another, 3rd option would be to build this floating island earlier mentioned, and place it in the unclaimed waters in Marie Byrd land, and solve the problems that rough seas brings.

Read my suggestion again. The nation would be build under ground. We'd have a closed ecosystem. The walls would be isolated. We'd be self-sufficient.

You can grow food on mars, and there is water there as well. But you'd still need energy to heat it up. Remember that it can be as cold as −153 °C during night times.
Earth may attract more meteorites than mars, but the martian atmosphere is a lot thiner than the earths.
And basically you're just copying my plan, but instead want to apply it on mars.
It would be much easier to build it on earth. Also, if we fuck up on our colony, we'll get help from the outside world. You won't.
Also, the gravity is much lower on Mars, and we don't know how the effects on the human body in such low gravity long term.

if we were to build a floating island why would we place it near Antarctica when we could place it in international waters with a much better climate? :D

what about the possibility of going to an uninhabited part of a 3rd world nation and starting fresh?

interesting idea, but large parts of Africa are filled with armed rebels and dictator goverments, not really safe to start a nation somwhere around there :D

Yeah, but then we'd have the problems with rough seas. Remember that the waves usually gets between 7-15 meters during storms, however, there have been waves reported as big as 30(!) meters. Good luck having a floating island that can resist that kind of waves.
If we place it in Antarctica we'd have protection from such, and we could have our perfect winter wonderland outside our door. Inside the island it would be kinda hot, preferably tropical climate, and outside we'd have a really cold, snowy landscape. We'd attract both tourists that wants a nice hot climate, and those who wants to go skiing. Win-win situation! ;)
What Kiki112 said.

-153°C is the minimum temperature registered on Mars, it doesn't mean it gets that cold everywhere, in the equater the trempreture is more earth like that you might think.

This was answered, Atmosphere when it comes to meteorites won't make much difference, earth attract more and gives more kinetic energy to the incoming meteorites, and since we observe Mars and had probes and orbiters around it there was way more meteorites that impacted earth than on Mars.

Copying your plan? I didn't even read it, but as you mentioned your plan has some issues, like  the soil on Artanctica is 4km deep and to how deep you think you need your base to be built under to be adiabatic? how much would it cost? as for Mars just use an available cave, or use a 3D printer if you don't want to dig to built your own habitat, this plan was presented 3 decades ago by Dr Robert Zubrin, he didn't just present Ideas, but a whole plan presenting everything, from risk to cost. so no not copying your plan.

Getting to Mars and getting the material needed to Mars is the biggest problem in the equation, while when it comes to Artanctica that's a none issue, yet why there isn't a permanent scientific station to this day? while scientist runs whenever it is winter, the scientific research there is of such importance, from meteorological studies and ozone hole studies to, underground sealed lakes like the Vostok and what's not, (btw scientist had to leave because of winter just at the edge of it !)

As for gravity it's not much lower it is indeed lower but we aren't talking about the moon here we are talking about Mars which has around 38% of earth Gravity, which is easily negated with the heavy space suites, Gravity would be a problem getting to Mars on zero gravity not being there in a lower gravity that you can negate the effect.

Like I said before building a an a floating Island in international water is the most possible and cheapest plan to do

daaamnn

how do ships shipping stuff handle these waves?
if they can, how couldn't we? :D

other then that, couldn't we just drill the ice downwards and use the ice as isolation from the wind and place ourselves there?

that's way I said a place like near the Moroccan shore a strategic place between America, EU and Africa where there is almost no storms, and you have everything near by, including continental internet Fiber optics

that is true and a good location for tourists while Antarctica not so far :D
or Mars lol

We aren't getting to Mars, or building a permanent base on Artactica anytime soon

For such plan, you need to built a floating Island somewhere, and then pull it international Seas and plant it there, like we do with Oil platforms (this is something we already have the know how to

Yeah, sure it can get quite hot during the summers, day time. But the lack of martian atmosphere makes the temperatures vary a lot. The average on Mars is about −55 °C.

You didn't even read the plan, but still you criticize it? Good job.
How deep i'd need to build our base? It could be just below surface. As long as the isolation is good it doesn't matter. How much would this cost? I have no idea. I didn't even come up with it until yesterday, lol!
Build your base using a 3D-printer? Seriously? Do you know how much that would cost?
He came up with the plan 3 decades ago? By that time the Soviet union was still a country, and most people had never even touched a computer. We know a lot more about the conditions on Mars now.

Yes, getting to Mars would be a gigantic problem. That would cost billions just to develop the Spacecraft that would get you there. And then of course you'd need it to carry all materials needed for you to start a colony on a new planet. That would cost an unthinkable amount of money.
Also, FYI there are permanent research centers on Antarctica. And that argument doesn't even make sense anyway. I could as well ask "Why are there no permanent research centers on Mars?".
Lets not either forget that it's not that uncommon with massive dust storms on Mars, lasting up to a few weeks. During those you would not be able to produce any electricity from solar panels

So you would wear heavy space suites all day long? That doesn't even matter. None knows what effects the "38% of earth" gravity would have on humans. It might be enough for the human body to not suffer heavy muscle loss and bone demineralization, or it might not. It's also very unclear if it would be possible to breed the next generation of humans whilst on Mars because of the same reasons.

A floating island would not be the easiest, but it's the most realistic.
I mean, it's not hard to dig even if the ground is frozen, and then it would just be the building part left. It's not that hard. However the world would probably get quite mad if we did so, and therefore the floating island would be the better option. The Mars thing you talk about however is completely unrealistic (for now, atleast).
If they're hit by those monster waves they usually don't make it.
Those ships are designed to ship some stuff and keep afloat. It's not a very pleasant experience for the ones onboard either. If we want an island that can support a bigger population we'd have to take much bigger precautions. I mean, what if the island doesn't make it? Just think of the headlines "Breaking news: 10000 dead in Bitcoin island catastrophe", that's not what we want is it?
We cannot place it within the EEZ, so that's not an option.
Atleast not Mars. Antarctica would be very possible with some money and devotion.
Placing it on such deep waters as in the Atlantic ocean is not possible atm. It's just way too deep.

as the conversation goes on, purchasing an islands seems getting better and better :D

The mean temperature is indeed -55°C but that's due to very low MIN temperatures, Where we can agree is that temperature swings are stronger on Mars not because of the lack atmosphere but the lack of Ocean that store heat and release it over time and spread it all around the world (the Atmosphere does the same thing, but unlike seas and ocean, the atmosphere cannot the necessary amount of heat to maintain earth warm on it own but there is an interaction between water and air that helps spread the heat) but lets get back to our cats, the things is about Mars while it is cold a typical habitable area have a temperature ranging from 10 to -30 or -40 or even a lower don't forget that due to the light atmosphere heat dissipation and heat propagation less is much much less severe than on earth. and this is not the main problem here ! On Mars you have many sources of Energy, Methane abundant, Solar Energy, abundant (for god sake you just need to build a green house to have earth like temperatures) On Antarctica it is not the case, everything you bring with you, will be used for over 6 month for everything.

Yes I didn't read it in my initial reply because I answered a different reply of yours aka the initial one about Antarctica, so what's the problem with that? I did read it when you mentioned it and claimed I "copied it"  You cannot have perfect Isolation, and will never happen, and on the surface it's even worst, you can minimize the heat dissipation and heat transfer in contact of -80° Ice/Air/Snow in permanent darkness, so you'll need to waste energy to keep the temperature at a decent level, energy that you are getting from no where.

3D printing habitat is expensive? please take a moment of reflexion because what you are saying here is stupid, let me put things in perspective for you, what's the most expensive part in such a project would be? getting stuff to Mars is the most expensive part! and every KG of Mass cost thousands of dollars to get to space, so which is cheaper? getting full base equipment and modules that would weight hundred of tons to Mars and risking the atmospheric entry on Mars with such a heavy cargo and what's not, or Sending a 3D Printer that could use Mars soil and rocks to build buildings? and you just carry the necessary accommodations with you of course these would the complementary buildings.

Did you even read about his plan or are you just claiming it is obsolete? the Plan was updated several times to include the most recent data we have, in addition to computer simulations from the most powerful computers, using the data, from every rover and orbiter in Mars ect ect ect...


It will cost billions! I agree the same goes for your polar base that will need permanent resupply, so you agree here that Mass is important and you don't gasp the important of 3D printer and other complementary solutions? it won't take the development of a new space craft, Dr Zubrin plan for example uses CURRENT technology hence it is one of the most realistic plans, Such a plan is spread over a decade to two and doesn't happen like that, if such a plan would cost lets say 20 billion $ that would be around a billion of $ a year, so what's a billion Dollar, it's too much for us the common of humans, but on a country scale it is nothing, US of A for example spends trillions of dollars on defense A YEAR there is nothing to compare here.
Also you are confusing between the existence of Permanent research centers on Antarctica (the building) (of course I'm not talking about stations near the shore on the edge of water where you don't even have the real severe polar weather those have people of course because the situation is not as harsh as in the middle of Antarctica) I'm talking about Stations in the middle of the continent like the Vostok station for example , all the Permanently used research centers in the middle of Antarctica like I said whenever winter closes scientist leaves Antarctica and comes back 7 or 8 months later. It's not hard to understand. No the argument doesn't go both way, because the hardest part of a Mars station is getting to Mars and getting everything needed there, while that's a non issue for Permanent station in the southpole (filled with people living there 24/7 365.6 in independence)
If you are talking about a station on the edge of Antarctica on ice, then why bother, like I said before just make island on international seas in very advantageous position.

Of course they'll wear "heavy" (ON EARTH) space suite, to do explorations on Mars surface they'll not feel heavy due the low gravity it will negate/compensate the effect of lack of gravity, also a Martian suite is nothing like an EV suite, if they wear those for extensive amount of time, any effect of low gravity would be negligible if not null.

There are massive dust storm on Mars, while in scale they are big, storm on Mars do not have the destructive power of their earth counterparts, due of course to the atmospheric pressure and density, the danger of being destroyed on earth by a storm is much much higher than on Mars the only thing of concern is Electrostatic shocks due to dust friction but that again if you build your equipment with that in mind you have nothing to fear, as for energy like I explained before it's a non issues, different resource of energy, Hydrogen is abundant, solar energy is abundant there is wind as well (not as efficient as on earth tho, but as a complementary solution why not) , geothermal, aerothermal ect ect ect.

So you agree with me that a floating island is a realistic solution? good, the point of Mars, is that you said that Antarctica is a viable solution, my whole argument is if Antarctica is a viable solution, then Mars is also a viable solution, in the perspective, that both would requires billions of $ long term planning and building, not to mention that Antarctica would cause many political issues unlike Mars.

The thing about an island is that you want have a independent country which is the whole point of this thread I think ^^

I took some time to read this and you got some points there but we would have to be self-sufficient on Mars, which is really hard to achieve

that is the main problem..

altough on the other side we would be the first to land on Mars and we would have massive and I mean massive media coverage, that would benefit us greatly!

It still gets very cold on Mars during nights, even on the equator. A normal greenhouse (built above the ground) would become cold quite fast.
Of course it has a lot to do with the atmosphere to do.
Thick atmosphere - good at keeping temperatures.
Thin atmosphere - not so good at keeping temperatures.

Sure the lack of oceans is also a factor, but don't forget how important the atmosphere is.
The Antarctica idea would be to become self-sufficient. Food can be grown and raised underground, there are lot of fish in the oceans around, so that would not be a major problem.

The plan, also, which you seem to have missed, is to build the colony at the coast. Isolation won't be a that big problem either, since most building will be built underground, but their roofs on surface level. The soil itself is quite good isolation, and add some thick layers of isolating material, and there won't be much of a problem there either.

My polar base would not cost billions. It would cost a few millions to build, but not billions. It would not need to be resupplied either, at least not with the essentials, since we'd be self-sufficient. Food can be grown and raised underground, there are lot of fish in the oceans around, so that would not be a major problem.

Yes, the USA spends trillions on defense each year, sure, but do you have access to that money? It would not be realistic to fund your plan with donations and stuff either. So that's very unrealistic. I'm not saying getting the money to fund my project would be easy either, but it would sure as hell be much easier.
And of course we'd build the base along the coast! Why would we want to build it in the middle of nowhere? And as stated in this post and earlier ones as well, we would build it on (under) soil. Not on ice.

When it comes to the gravity part, of course I'm not talking about when you're outside exploring Mars, but when you're inside the base. We don't know how the martian gravity affects humans. We don't know if it will even be possible to breed children or anything. Neither if it's possible to grow larger plants.

Solar power would not work during these dust storms and wind power would probably not be a very good idea either during them (= damage).

A big advantage on the Antarctica plan would also be that it would not be a one way trip, which it would be to Mars. The trip would not take up to a few years either.

As I stated earlier in this post Antarctica would not cost billions. Mars would.
Of course it would be possible to build a colony on mars as well, but it would take a lot more work to get it up and running. Much of the easy accessible water on mars is on its poles, and in the atmosphere. Since your plan would to be place the base on the equator the atmosphere would be the best option, correct? To obtain enough water to support a large population would become very expensive as well.

To summarize; Antarctica would be simpler and cheaper, even though it would cause more diplomatic problems.

We'd get massive media coverage from Antarctica as well. But we'd probably get more negative attention comparing to the Mars mission which would probably almost exclusively generate positive attention.

we would get media attention for building an island too

but colonising Mars, that's a whole new level of media coverage!

we would be on the news for years not days :D

another thing, one of the most imporant ones regarding Mars

what about the internet? :D

There would be a delay on about 3 - 21 minutes one way. So double it to get the actual time.

so I post a new thread on bitcointalk and it gets posted after 20 minutes?

damn :D

could we mine normally?

If we find the block about 21 minutes before any others, yes. But we'd have to have our own pool on mars, since mining in a earth based pool would not work. Would be to much delay.

interesting but how would that actually work

when we solve algorythims then they are transmitted back to earth or what?

I'm not really into mining so I don't really understand the concept

Yes, exactly. We'd solve it first, then we'd claim it. But since the rest of the network is on the earth it would take quite some time to send the transmission that proves we found it first. During the time it takes an earth based pool would be able to claim it.
Not to mention we'd also receive the new blocks 3-21 minutes after the earth based miners to, so we'd have less time to solve them.

This would not be a problem on Antarctica though! ;)

how come it's 3-21 minutes :D

what makes it differ from 3 to 21 lol

if it was 3 minutes it could work but 21 damn :D

I don't know, but the space authority I got it from probably (hopefully) knows! :D

we should ask them :D

When I talk resupply, i talk about energy resupply to keep everything warm,(the stations you are talking about you industrial fuel with additives to not freeze for energy and heat, energy resources are not available in Antarctic the only viable solution is going nuclear if you want to be almost self sufficient in terms of energy (I'll let you check the price of a nuclear power plant not to mention the political side of things.....to resume this part is impossible)

if you are going to build it on the cost (Antarctica cost is permanent and non permanent ice but not where near the soil which is some locations 4km deep under ice) why bother going dealing with that harsh environment I thought we were talking from a country perspective

The base will cost billions if you want it to have the accommodation you are talking about, unless you build everything somewhere else and bring them there, but no digging, no underground stuff, you'll build stuff like the existing stations there, and you'll need resupply being it energy or food, so which is it, being self sufficient in terms of food, and costing more, or costing less and be dependable of the outside world which anyway it will be the case because of the energy issue.

Martians Gravity would affect you if you are doing extensive training and wearing suites for hours that will make your body fit, the problem if someone doesn't do those things and even then, Astronauts who stays on the space station at zero gravity (free fall) still servive, but have bone loss and muscle loss but that's 0 gravity which brings many issues such the heart doesn't have to work against gravity, bones don't work at all ect

Like I said there is many other source of energy, you can also store energy, you can use one energy to creat another form of energy, example, using solar electricity, to make chemical energy out of methane, water, hydrogen ect ect, and geothermal aerothermal energy is abundant and thanks to high temperature swings the effects are much higher than on earth.

Nope no access to such money, but I can assure you that if someone comes up with a serious plan, and has already a large financial and technical backing which shows that it's not just dreams but a concrete thing, donations will flow, just look at Mars One the attention it is getting for nothing.

As for the location there are different location not necessary in the equater, of course it will be no where near the polar region, but water is abundant under Mars soil, and almost whole Mars soil is perma-fraust heck there are even theories about underground seas, water does not exist on liquid state on Mars surface it is either Gas or Ice, both also exist water ice, is not that far north, Mars polar caps are mostly of dry ice and under that water ice that spreads enough. expensive no, you just drill wells like you do on earth or get ice and melt it, both are good

we can't rely on that, we should try it but the water might be contamined

It's 3 to 21 min (and even the communication at 21min might be impossible unless we set up a proper satellite network), the difference is for a simple reason :

Both Earth and Mars turn around the sun, but both aren't at the same distance and they don't turn at the same speed around the sun, so what happens is that Earth and Mars get close to each (not to mention that Earth and Mars are not on the same plane, and that Mars orbit is more ovale than Earth)

check this out http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/

Since earth is closer to the sun and heavier, it turns faster around it so earth passes Mars and they after 2 years they meet again, so when earth and mars are on the same side from the sun there is a point, when sun earth and mars centers from a line, that's when mars is the closest to earth, and the communication takes 3min to reach (btw rockets takes 6 to 8month to reach Mars at this distance, and actually we send the rocket before Mars and earth gets to this point it's like shooting in anticipation knowing where and when Mars will be the spacecraft will reach it orbit aka it should be on it, planets moves faster than any space craft so if you miss it it's a goner) of course after that point the distance between earth and mars starts widening as like we said before earth is faster than mars, to the point where they line again (a year later) this time Mars and Earth on opposite sides and that where earth and mars are at the farthest distance, we have the sun between us, (and the sun probably blocks communication I think this is called solar conjunction if I'm not mistaking, but if there are satellites on Lagrangian 4 and 5 points) (which will make communication even longer :D )

But yeah that communication with earth, but if you have you own population you won't internetz you can creat your own Martian internetz, on keep communication with earth, (also for instant communication, quantum entanglement for the win!)

because filtering doesn't exist? I'm not talking about your average filtering I'm talking about molecular filtering, You'll only get H2O on the other end, you think that people in space station has a well available to them? the only water they get is once in a while when they receive ( a quantity of water that is at most a couple of weeks worth of it own) but most of the water is recycled aka they are drinking their own pee and sweat recycled of course using catalyst

yes, I understand that but the main point of the mission is bitcoin and it's based on Earth
that is the problem..



yeah, okay..

no it's not bitcoin, is own country on which you can have your legislation, where bitcoin will be the currency of choice I suppose ^^

You still can't get that solar power + wind power + wave power will be enough to sustain this place, can you? Add some biogas if needed (which we could produce ourselves) and there would be no problems.

FYI there are some dry spots on Antarctica which are ice free all year around. Perfect for building a new colony. Perfect for building a new country.

It would not cost billions to dig some holes in the ground, build inside them, install our own power generators and get some starting supplies there. That would only cost a few millions.
Being self-sufficient on food will not be that much of a problem. It is very possible to grow food underground. It is also very possible to breed animals underground, and fish in the ocean outside, which I've clearly stated in my previous posts.
Also, being self-sufficient on energy I've already covered a thousand times now, I don't feel it's necessary to do so again.

I still think you don't understand the possible gravity problem. We don't know what effects it has on the human body. We don't know if it is possible to grow bigger plants, we don't know if it's possible to breed children, we don't know what such low weight will have on humans long term. We don't know if martian gravity will be enough to avoid all these problems. And also, do you think everyone in a colony will be willing to do extensive training all days a week? I hardly think so. And in that case you're talking about professional astronauts and scientists, not settlers (especially not bitcoiners which I think was the focus of this new nation project).

Sure, you can do those things to get energy, but that also costs a fortune. You'd also need to extract all the necessary substances whilst on Mars. You seem to forget the money aspect when talking about your project.

First of all, if you leave the equator it will get much colder, so that would require even more energy and money to keep it inhabitable.
Second of all, there's no proof of abundant water reserves under the ground, that is purely speculations. Drill for ice? That causes lots of problems not to mention that there's no proof of ice under the ground. How would you get all the ice up to the colony? Remember since, it doesn't float it will be like mining. Also, since it's solid, the well will not refill itself. What do you do when you have depleted your ice source?

Again, to summarize; Antarctica would be much simpler and much cheaper, even though it would cause more diplomatic problems.

You know we don't have all that quantum stuff yet, right?

we've been playing with quantum entaglement for quite a while and can be a viable solution for long distance communication, you just need to take the entangled subpartical to the place you are going, are we getting communication system based on it soon; nope not we are far from that, it's just a viable option in decades or couple centuries if the human race manage to leave earth and start living in other planets but it's most likely we will kill our selfs before hitting that milestone lol

what wind, solar wave you are talking about? you do realise that polar winter is 6 month of night in -50 to -80°C with blizzard that would instantly block any kind of wind of win turbines and water is fronzen ? you are quite missing the point

Yeah, but we still don't have it, so it's not really relevant.
Agree to that self-destruction thing anyway! :P
For the last time, it does not get that cold in the costal areas! Even mid-winter the average temperature is −26°C. Much of the water in the ocean does not freeze, there's where the waves are. The wind you say? Those blizzards you talk about aren't that common in the costal areas, and when they come, then we'll just have to go on our reserves. No big deal. Okay, we might not have the sun for 6 months, and that loss we cover with the biogas if needed.

lol, I'm the original poster, how can you tell me what was my mission? :D

Coastal area ? what coast are you speaking about you do understand that in winter the land scape changes completely with icecaps growing by hundred of miles and that the supposed cost area becomes hundreds if not thousands of miles away of the liquid water? so anything related to fishing or tyde energy is impossible not only you aren't answering the energy issue we are talking about here I have the feeling that you are really underestimating Antarctica (and why scientist are having a hard time there despite the millions of dollars budgets)
here you go :
http://www.polartrec.com/files/resize/members/alex-eilers/images/extremes_10_-_summergrid-400x400.jpg
http://www.polartrec.com/files/resize/members/alex-eilers/images/extremes_9-_wintericegrid-400x400.jpg

Also when it comes to temperatures, McMurdo antarctic base which is coastal and located in one of the warmest if not the warmest area in Antarctica  the temperature can reach -50°C -60°C, the winter doesn't hit in one go, hence the mean temperature is as high as -28°C but that doesn't mean that there aren't days where the temperatures as low -60°C, as for winds blizzards and such, please, .... Antarctica is very windy place, since there aren't much mountains to block the wind(the continent mountains are under ice)

As for biogas.....let's discuss some facts so you know what you are talking about.....You need a 35°C in the digester to decompose waste into biogas.
Biogas is very hard to store as it is very hard to liquify but more importantly 50Cows, would produce the equivalent of 50L of fuel everyday, I don't know if you can put it in perspective, the amount of space and energy needed to give 50 cows a living environnement in Antartica would use more than those 50L of fuel per day I'm not even talking about feeding them (you can also use human waste and organic food waste but it's no where near what cows produce) so no biogas is not an option here. maybe you have other solution you didn't present yet so feel free to share

Maybe I misinterpreted something but reading this

Then reading the Island thread which is talking about an independent country or are where bitcoin will be the currency of choice.

but if it is not the case, let me ask something why anyone would go trough the hassle to get somewhere unclaimed to produce bitcoin? there is no country in the world that prevents you for doing so, I fail to see the point -.- if it is to have an independant terrertory free to make dah bitcoin country

because of no taxes :D

you seem not to understand how much money you actually lose due to paying taxes :D

For people who want to establish a nation at Bir Tawil. The region is land-locked, and is sorrounded by Egypt to the North and Sudan to the South. For establishing an independent nation, first you need to travel to Bir Tawil. How will you be able to travel, when both Egypt and Sudan has forbidden foreigners from traveling to that region?

the region is filled with Egyptian soldiers

so our plan is to persuade the Egyptian goverment to let us form a country that will be under complete authority of Egypt

points I have made are a few pages back from importing their products to tourist benefits..

The last time I heard, Sudan and Egypt were not in good terms with each other. So even if you somehow persuade Egypt, I don't think the Sudanese will agree to cede the territory.  ;D

While you do have a point that the ice expands during the winters, but then, that just means that our fishing fleet will have to move further away from land. Pretty simple as well.
Wave power might be a problem in the winters, but we'd just have to compensate that with more wind power and biogas.

I can neither see the point that on that "some days it can go as low as -50°C to -60°C". The average temprature is mid winter −26°C. That's what we have to start from.
Thanks to all that wind we can get energy btw. The turbines could become covered in snow and ice during these blizzards, but when that happens we'd just have to go on our backup system with stored energy. When the blizzard is over we'd just have to remove the ice. The population needs to do something anyway.

Cows don't need very high temperatures, if we can keep the place on about 18°C it will work. And keeping something about 18°C under ground, especially with cows that themselves emit heat, is not that hard.
And then we'd just need to build the digester deep under the ground, heat it up, and there, no problems.

Btw, I don't say it would be easy, I'm just saying that it's the easiest plan of the Antarctica, Mars and Bir Tawil plans.

The Sudanese won't risk war for a bunch of sand

By undrground you mean under ice?
We won't be able to reach the ground
It's several kilometers deep
If we do it on the no ice areas as you say, we will get
trapped when the winter comes

tax havens? many countries regions, don't tax bitcoin and don't taxes on properties and stuff like that

We want absolutely no taxes and bitcoin as official currency

Good! you'll move the fleet you are just forgetting the thousand of KM of ice forming to get your fish from the edge of water to your station ? using trucks? not happening I'll tell you why with proof if you want to argue about this.

Wind power? your wind tubines won't last a day in the middle of winter it will be completely frozen!, your wave power infrastructure will be destroyed when winter comes (what does happen to water when it freeze? or let me simplify my question what does happen to full bottle of water if you put it in the freezer ?) Biogas, I'm telling you it's not an option I explained this with data, the only logical solution is to get and make huge fuel supply and resupply every summer

The average temperature in winter is around -26° in one of the hottest area there, right, but you build your station to cope with the worst situation or to cope with the average temperature? if you have 2 days of -60° what are you going to do? that's bad design and bad planing. You'll just remove ice? if only it was easy as that....you'll have ice all over the winter remember you have -26° degree average....

Cows can live just fine at 18°C I don't recall saying the opposite, but heating and keeping the temperature at 18 from -40 -30 -20°C is another story, I don't how you still believe that you can create a totally adiabatic isolated system, something if it was possible we would be doing for ages in our northen cities, cities in some of the richest countries in the world like Sweden or Norway, and countries like Canada or Russia where condition are no where as harsh as in  Antarctica and this is not the issue like I said if you want to create biogas, you need bacterial fermentation that beed 35°C.
And btw the only unclaimed area in south pole is this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Antarctica%2C_unclaimed.svg
Which is not as warm as the other areas and very harsh to reach and work on

Ground? what ground ? maybe you missed the part that in winter the ground is under meters dozens of meters in some areas the soil is hundrend of meters and kilometers deep and under ice as hard as rock?

I think he said we should go on the american part since soldiers are forbidden here they couldn't do anything about it

Horray ! so we agree that this is the whole point here right ! but you said no -.-

Army is forbidden on Antarctica, doesn't mean the US will let you do whatever you want there and won't bring the right people to get you of there, not to mention that the American is legally under US juridiction and US laws apply there or did I miss something here

when did I say no? :D


tell it to lepirate, he's the one supporting the theory :D

hmm

lol -.-

May be you could make that sure by bribing them. The problem is you need at least one of the neighbors to be in friendly terms. There is no sea coast. So you will have to depend on the two neighbors to get all the stuff you need.

bitcoin of course but not only bitcoin :D

lol okey you agree then ^.^ so Island in international waters?

I have to be on lepirates side in this one. All he was saying was that it would be easier to build a base on antarctica than Mars and Bir Tawil. And guess what? He's right! I've never seen him claim that he had all details. And you just seem to be upset that he criticized your Mars plan IMO.

Here are some solutions to all the problems you mention:
1. You can fly the fish over the ice. Also it can be transported over the ice with good machines. Another possibility is to have enough food stored for the winter months.

2. Wind turbines works just fine in cold, as long as they don't get covered in ice. The biggest wind power parks in Sweden is placed in the far north of this northern country. Winters there get extremely cold as well. All that needs to be done are some adjustments for the climate. Wave power generators though will break if they're still in the water when the ice comes. A solution would be to take them up for the winter. Bio gas can absolutely work, placed deep under the ground with some heavy isolation. Add some heat and it will produce. Remember that it's not as cold under the ground. And you came up with a solution as well, to save up a lot of fuel during the summers! That is also a good idea.

3. If it gets to cold it would just be to evacuate the top floor or heat it up even more. Not that complicated.

4. If I understand lepirates posts right his suggestion is to build it in the dry valleys. Which would not be in the unclaimed territory though.



Btw, America does not claim any parts of Antarctica, and doesn't recognize any other countries claims either.

all of this is true but after all the hassle we need to compare positive sides of Mars and Antartica

both need a lot of work, Mars of course needs more since we would need to be self sufficient

but if we put a colony on Mars, we would be on every news on every television, for months, years

updates would be broadcasted worldwide, if we were to establish our own channel and broadcast it on Earth it would be one of the most watched channels

we would bring exposure to bitcoin like no one has ever saw

best advertising there could be!

just think about it..

we would be the first to put man on Mars, the first to establish a colony in outter space :D

we would be famous, we would skyrocket not only our bitcoinauts but the bitcoins price too :D

Upset? for what? I just provided prof that it is not easy as he claims and you claim it is, scientific facts, actual data, not just opinions and in our conversation there was not a single mention of BirTawil so I don't understand why you are adding that here, Or rather I do but I'll let you explain your self on that matter

But let's answer the thing you are mentioning here.

1-Planes ? what kind of planes? helicopters on the fishing boats? light planes? heavy planes ?
a-Helicopters, if you assume the best conditions possible a helicopter range would 300-400Km that's no where reaching the base, if you consider the cargo weight, the windy cold conditions and lack of visibility on winter that range is way shorter and I'm sure I mentioned that the ice cap reaches over a thousands KM from the limite of the shore So no.
b-light plane: No for similar reasons once you have your heavy cargo they are going no where
c-Heavy plane: where are going to land it on tiny ice near the water where you are fishing? not happening, also ocean/sea ice doesn't make a smooth surface when frozen you can have ice blocks of several meters everywhere around
Ice vehicles? there are no Ice vehicles that can do such trip, and just to put things into perspective, Top gear prepared a vehicle to reach the 1996 North magnetic pole (which is no where near the physical north pole)  in Summer in perfect weather, took them 3 days to cover 320miles, with no cargo or anything they had a very flexible vehicle yet it took them that long. Winter is another story, for reference of ice cap grow by hundreds and thousands of KM during winter I'll let you image what that power can do to the rest of the environment and how things change on a daily basis

2-Most Sweden win farms are located south of the country proof : http://www.thewindpower.net/country_maps_en_17_sweden.php, Sweden is no where as cold as Antarctica heck there is no room for comparison here, the coldest part in Sweden are hotter in average than the hottest areas in Antarctica.
Here you go average temperature of Sweden cities http://www.sweden.climatemps.com/ the coldest average temperature in the most northern coldest city in Sweden is -2°C you are no where close the -20 -30 -40°C averages you get Antarctica
and for reference here are Stockholm temperature through the year : http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/

3- Yeah sure, you can heat it that's not the problem, the problem is lepirate claims he can be energy sufficient, your fishing boats, planes vehicles heating energy will come from what.....? and Just a reminder in winter (night) you are basically in total isolation due to the harsh conditions.

4-America does not claim any territory true, I think there was a confusion with Australia which claims almost half Antarctica.

Like I said before if it is to challenge once self with almost impossible technical problems why bother with Antarctica, aim high, aim better, and Mars is a much better target.

realistically speaking as I said from the beginning, if you want an unclaimed territory, it would be building an artificial island in international water! that's the only logical solution.
Of course there are other options like direct negotiation with a poor country to have a small slice of the land, but that's another argument which is politically tied, and I'm only discussing the technical stand point here

To be fair, lepirate repeatedly said that it would be easier to build on Antarctica than it would be to claim Bir Tawil or colonize Mars. He never claimed that it would be easy though. In fact, he claimed that it would be hard.

I'm not at all interested in discussing all technical details (basically because I'm not really read in on all technicalities), but the fact remains, it would be cheaper and easier to: Build the base, make it inhabitable, find the people willing to live there, make it self-sufficient.
Also, I think lepirate agreed on the artificial island thing earlier in this thread.

Yeah, but remember that once on Mars there's no way back (unless we develop return crafts as well, which would raise the price with a few more billions). Most people running from NSA and IRS will not be willing to do that.
Also, we would not have any use for bitcoins whilst on Mars anyway. There's nothing to buy there, so there would be no use of bitcoins, not even money (depends on the size of the colony).

With those things even the original idea is gone, with its freedom for bitcoiners and weed.
It would be cool with a colony on mars though.

why not?

if we become self sufficient we could still pay our workers in bitcoin and they would purchase stuff in bitcoin :)

we could still grow weed in greenhouses :D

besides we should start a project of terraformation on Mars, slowly but once it would be filled with oxygen :)

about the gravity issue on humans


just warming the planet up a few degrees would make it's pressure same as Mt.Everest making us lose the space suits and walking around with only oxygen bags, something like scooba-diving without water :D

Sad to see the discussion drifting away to the dream zone.

The Bir Tawil nation is theoretically possible. If the Egypt and Sudan reaches an understanding about selling the disputed property, then it can be purchased by bitcoiners.

On the other hand, Antarctica should remain outside human interference according to the international treaties. There is no way on earth that the UN is allowing someone to settle there.

But what exactly would they buy with the bitcoins they earn? It's not that easy to trade with the earth. And those that don't earn enough, will they starve, with no other option to just leave and find something better?
And if they don't wanna work anymore, what happens then? Will we just kick them outside the base and let them die?

It also takes a very long time to terraform a planet. Extremely long time. It's also extremely expensive.
This whole project would cost very many billion dollars. And that is money that very few countries and companies can pay, and I'd guess they are not that interested in building a bitcoin paradise (with that delay) and keep it funded when the public has lost interest.
Yeah, but it's very unlikely that they would reach that agreement with todays situation. Also, then we'd have problems with water and food. And to keep the miners cold would be a problem.

I however, would also prefer to see Antarctica untouched.
UN would probably not accept it, but since military is illegal on Antarctica it would be very interesting to see what they would do! :P

Hmm, but it would be quite hard to "just" release enough carbon dioxide into the atmosphere i believe?

same as on earth, you don't work you don't get any money, simple as that

we would use bitcoins for food,water,other resources we would produce..

and yeah, I'm aware we crossed to the SF part, but it's interesting to see how it is actually possible altough very hard :D


we already have plenty of carbon dioxide

https://i.imgur.com/bkOUHmV.png

we just need to create some oxygen or make the athmosphere more earthlike by increasing it's temperature

altough, after what we've done on Earth, warming up the planet shouldn't be a problem :D

Yeah, but since they don't have the option to leave they would be trapped and forced to work for their survival. Which would basically mean slavery. And if someone brings lots of money from the earth, would they be freed from the burden of working? Wouldn't it be better to just demand that everyone works for a few hours each day to produce enough food for everyone?

Yeah, but it's not that easy to release all that carbon dioxide...

that is true hm

in the beginning we would probably have to use some communist-like society until we stabilise

well, that's a problem but people who agree to join will join on their own, no one will push them :)

not being able to leave would be a great motivation for survival too :D

lots of people would do it for the fame :D

Damn... seems like we have some competition:

http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Associate_State_of_Bir_Tawil

Yeah, I think that's the best to start with. When the population and the colony have grown and they can start doing non-survival things it can go capitalistic or something.

People that does it for fame are usually not capable of seeing long term consequences of their actions, and they are not often willing to work hard for their survival either… So those are probably not the best candidates for this colonization project…
Lol, and Antarctica is also claimed anyway (by multiple micronations!): :P
http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Federated_States_of_Antarctica
http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/State_of_the_People_of_West_Antarctica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Westarctica

Many of these little known micro-nations exists only on paper. How many serious attempts were there? May be less than a dozen. The Principality of Sealand was a serious venture. Some of the projects, such as the Operation Atlantis and the Republic of Minerva failed miserably. Principality of Freedonia is more or less defunct now.

There are some global warming agents a million times more potent than carbon dioxide. It would take a few years if we use those compounds.


If we keep mining asteroids and bring it to mars perhaps in the future mars would develop a magnetic field again. Those asteroids contain mostly of irons and nickel that can make a magnetic field.

He clearly said it was easy until faced with facts, and change his stance from easy to easier than .
How can you say it would cheaper and easier without even getting proper solutions, lets just put things into perspective here which important here:
his plan is to be build an independent nation/area where a group of people can live independently from other countries, not only politically independent but in almost every domain, aka energy independent, supply independent ect ect achieving such a think is no easier than going to Mars and this was my whole argument.

How can talk about facts if you can't talk about technical challenges and cost related to those challenges it is not logical by any mean.

Now if you want to have a station on Antartica for a small group of people (a dozen of person) that will not live there permanantly (to this day Antarctica has 0 permanant habitant for reference) and that you'll be supplying from the outside world all the time sure that's much much cheaper and technically less challenging than going to Mars, this goes without saying, but the other thing that goes without saying, is what's the point in this case.


No way back? you just take your space craft to get you back with or even send it before hand <.< , euh hello Apollo program, the challenge of getting of Mars is much easier than lifting of earth due to the low gravity, and the heaviest thing in a space craft is fuel, and you can create rocket fuel on Mars surface while carying minimum of chemicals that are not easly available/produceable on Mars.

There is no doubt that such project will cost billions of $ I'm sure I mentioned this, but anything related to owning own land and nation would cost as much, unless it is very small

Anything related to making own country independent area is in the dream zone right now, just that some plans are more viable than others but either neither the whole Bitcoin market cap or it political influence can do such a thing

they're competition only on paper :D


we started discussing Mars too much, we should create a new thread about it..

someone else do it, I have to wait 6 minutes after posting this lol

this thread is about Bir Tawil, let's not mix stuff up too much :D

it is indeed, but I think Bir Tawil was answered, from my perspective, the geopolitical tensions in that region will render any attempt impossible, not to mention as I mentioned before, the region is full of pirates, and separatist (Somali is split in two right now) ect ect, I think that bitcoin should gain political and lobying power in several nations but I believe that woudn't happen with current market cap but if bitcoin get past the 10K point things will become more interesting

Bir Tawil is full of pirates? It has no sea coast and Somalia is far away. There are no humans there with the exception of the Egyptian soldiers. The easiest way to establish a Bitcoin nation might be in Bir Tawil.

far from coast? less than 200km is far for you? hmm

Yes. 200 km is a very large distance. Especially in the Sahara desert where there are no roads or even isolated tracks. Even the Egyptian military uses helicopters to get its personal to the Bir Tawil. How do you expect the pirates to get there. Also, given the naval patrols being conducted by the navies of Egypt and Saudi Arabia in the Red sea, I don't find it possible for the Somali pirates to reach anywhere near that area.

It's not really that desert of an area, there is even a national park around near by, the region is between the river Nile and sea shore, while some of it is located in deserted from the sea to the Bir Tawil area is far from being all desert, and you think pirates/separatists/terrorist in the region uses sport cars? it's pickup trucks and they know very well the region. Ask AQMI how they manage to move around in the Sahara between Algeria, Mali, Libya, Sudan. As how to expect pirates despite the tight surveillance (btw there are even US destroyers in the area to help) then maybe you should check the recent ships they managed to take over in recent years despite all that

Why Bir Tawil, why not Bir Tawil and the Hala'ib Triangle. Obviously for Egypt and Sudan to renounce their claims it would require them both to benefit from it, what better than economic growth for both countries. Say for example the countries main telecomms provider is an Egyptian company and the defense force deals are with a Sudanese company. Just an example. As for water, in every post I've ever seen about Bir Tawil no one has mentioned desalinatation plants. Since the whole of Bir Tawil and the Hala'ib Triangle only receive about 20mm annual precipitation why not drain the water from the red sea. And for any country to start up, it will be in mass debt for the first 50+ years and with a startup like this with no money, no economy and no basis for an economy until you get things running you'd probably rely a lot on the IMF, World Bank and International loans, just note Bir Tawil does have oil caches under all that sand. There's no point starting a country if its going to end up in poverty with no infrastructure, health care or even housing or water. Foreign investment would be key, long term loans would make up a good proportion of the economy and since it lacks natural resources a large manufacturing industry would be ideal. You can't start a country without a long term goal and a plan, a plan for the next 20 years atleast.

The Hala'ib Triangle is strategically very important for the Egyptians. It contains several kilometers of the Red Sea coast and there are several permanent villages there as well. Egypt is never going to give up that area.

The Kingdon of North Sudan - https://kingdomsudan.org/ (https://kingdomsudan.org/)

Bir Tawil - https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_North_Sudan (https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_North_Sudan)

Mapping micronations - The Stream - http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201408141504-0024059 (http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201408141504-0024059)

 

I don't know if it is good tho.