Bitcoin Forum

I've seen a lot of talk on these boards bashing capitalism. I want to remind people that capitalism is the only moral system of government and it has never been tried completely.

When the US was formed, capitalism flourished briefly.  Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens and began the immoral taxation to pay for any number of programs.  A central bank was even formed in the early 1800s that lasted for several years.  Despite the slow encroachment of oppressive government, the US lead the world in innovation and wealth accumulation during the 1800s and most of the 1900s.  This was all due to capitalism and limited government.

As a liberterian, a TRUE liberterian,  I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING.   The only moral purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, thereby increasing freedom.  Forcibly taking wealth from somebody and giving to somebody else is wrong/immoral/evil.

Bitcoin thankfully takes the power of money creation out of the hands of governments which is why there are so many libertarians on this forum.

I could talk about morality and philosophy all day long but this probably isn't the right forum.  I just wanted to point out that true unrestricted capitalism is the moral engine that drives wealth creation in this world.

You mean there can be no bitcoin in the time of socialism or communism?

You make a bold statement like this and offer nothing to back it up. Seems legit.

I think the way neofelis should have put it is that capitalism is the most moral solution we've come up with - which I agree with. There are problems with it. Like there is little incentive in capitalism to protect those that are having their rights violated.

If individual rights are being violated, that is not capitalism. Capitalism protects individual rights.


Morality, simply put, it not using force or threat of force in transactions.  Capitalism, pure capitalism, does not allow the initiation of force in interactions between men.   Every other form of government see force to take from men the product if their labor.

Socialism, dictatorships, royalty, fascism, you name it. These all violate men's rights for "the good of society" and are therefore immoral.

If you mean free market capitalism, I completely agree. Captalism has been to much in the hands of oligarchs. Proof:
America is an oligarchy, not a democracy or republic, university study finds
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

And how can there be a free market ever, if we have a monopoly currency? To make things worse, the issuer of this currency is suppressing the core market mechanism of capitalism.
How Crony Capitalism Corrupts the Free Market | David Stockman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3AKiWGawGs   

We fight the monopoly and break it.  That's how.

fiat is evil towards to infinite .. my salary is never enough to pay my bills .. inflationary money is a new mode of slavery ... 

You're not wrong about the definition of capitalism, but you are wrong about the practice. Whenever there are people involved things get screwy, because people are screwed up.

I'm pretty sure a socialist would argue that pure socialism doesn't involve violence or force because everyone is supposed to be taking care of everyone else, and while that sounds great on paper it doesn't really pan out when you get real people involved.

Capitalism itself has no moral standpoint, it doesn't say anymore than "money is power, try to achieve wealth by doing stuff".
It doesn't care if you achieve it by exploiting others or by being a great inventor.
But people do.
"Then, as usual, people in power started placing restrictions on citizens[...]" , you are even saying it yourself.
Guess what will happen then. The neutral capitalism will be shifted by those who gained power first.
This will lead to some form of government/restrictions for other people.
-> true unrestricted capitalism can only exist for a short timeframe.

By guarding a right for someone, you are also restricting someone else.
Think about this sentence: When you are born into this world all pieces of land are already owned by someone else.

Crony capitalism and exploitation through inflation are the evils that the western governments have introduced to free markets. Wrestle away the currency and you stop them cold.

I have to disagree on a few points.  Capitalism is based on a rational view of the nature of man. Man cannot exist and live as man in the absence of freedom.  That is why the dominate philosophy of this century has led to the decay of the US and western society.  That is the philosophy of altruism.  Excuse me while I channel my inner Ayn Rand…Altruism leads men to believe that it is a virtue to sacrifice oneself for others.  Even a little bit is considered noble.  This leads to man feeling guilty for not "giving more" than they already do.  We look at monks, who give everything to serve others and live in poverty, as the ideal to live up to.  This becomes a problem when men achieve political power, the power to initiate the use of force against men.  This power is given to the politicians by the very people who elect them into office.  With the philosophy of altruism permeating our society, it is now very easy for these men of power to use that power to force men who "haven't given enough" to "do the right thing."

Unrestricted capitalism will only be able to exist for a short while until the philosophy of altruism is no longer taught.  The correct philosophy for man to exist qua man (as a man and not a slave) is Objectivism.  Objectivism teaches rational self-interest and the ultimate value and virtue.  Objectivism is the only philosophy based on reason and man's use of it to guide his decisions. 

Under true and unrestricted capitalism, individual rights are the most sacred (if I can use that term) asset a country can preserve.  No law can be written that violates a man's natural rights and no man can violate the rights of another without breaking the law in doing so.  The initiation of force is given exclusively to the government and man can only use force for self defense or the defense of others. Those in power cannot pass laws that violate rights, period. This leads to a very narrow scope of government, namely police, military and a system of courts.  Any other use of government force will violate man's right to property. Everything else - education, infrastructure, social programs, etc are all immoral. To supply one little old lady with a government pension check seems like a noble deed.  But that deed is based on a million tiny little uses of force to take the money from somebody else who actually earned it.  I'll stop here.


"When you are born into this world all pieces of land are already owned by someone else."  The answer is you will get a job and earn some bitcoin and buy it from somebody who wishes to sell it. You may inherit it as well.  There is nothing wrong with inherited wealth.  I don't fret that men like BIll Gates and Warren Buffet have loads of money.  They have made our lives infinitely better through their innovations and skill.  Their massive wealth was well earned and I admire them for it.  But wait a few generations and see how much wealth the heirs of Bill Gates will have.  I predict very little.  It will get spread out through the population because few men create that kind of wealth and even fewer can keep it.  Have many Kennedys and Rockefellers have the same power and money their ancestors had?  None that I know of. 

 To the phony libertarians and others that desire to claim that taxes are evil, or whatever. Get lost. Go in the jungle, stay there. Or pay your fair, legal share, like everyone else. Otherwise your simply a parasitical maggot, a criminal, a low life evil scum bag, much like banksters.


OP I have a few questions for you.


1. Do you believe in bailouts for failure?

2. Do you believe in Bonuses for failure?

3. Do you believe the wealthy deserve to be saved from ruin through bailouts for failure?

4. Do you believe others should be bailed out while still others are forced to pay for those bailouts?

 It appears your more than a 'bit' confused.


 Capitalism never rewards failure

 And real "free market" capitalism NEVER rewards failure.

 There is always RISK with capitalism.

 Take away that risk and suddenly it's not "free markets" nor "capitalism".


 Sure, society needs to care for those that can't or wont, but not "reward" them.
We must not take the incentive to strive to care for oneself away. Rewarding failure does that.
Bailing out the wealthy ruling elite 'oligarchy' is so far removed from capitalism it's mind boggling.
Some simply can't take care of themselves. Only civilized societies care for them, in others their termed the 'homeless' and much worse.

 What we have today is a form of Corporate Fascism, or whatever one cares to label it, but I prefer that term and the following one better.

 Maybe best defined as Bankster Fascism. It was extremely well hidden for many decades. Not any more. The curtain has been removed.

 We only have the very best government that the wealthy ruling elite have been able to purchase. Nothing more, nothing less. That's a major problem until finally it's not. Just like communism or any other form of dictatorships and elite ruling monarchies. Yet people by and large keep falling for their propaganda. Until finally they don't. Turn off the TV. Get your news from much better sources. Only then will one start learning the truth instead of the lies, half truths, and spin that they must have you believe to keep ruling.

 What the western world at large, with only tiny exceptions, is not even remotely capitalism or "free market capitalism". OP, your terribly confused and brainwashed IF that is what you believe. I trust it isn't.

 Cowards die a thousand deaths. Every fascist, communist, and parasite all die a thousand deaths. But that isn't nearly justice enough.

 Rule #101 -  NEVER do business with Communists or Fascists.
Some parasites and criminals forgot that rule, so have most others.

 Capitalism is returning soon, everyone that possibly can will be required to carry their own water, and a whole lot of bailout queens are going to soon end in utter ruin. Same for communists and fascists. This all ends soon, and extremely badly for those that are responsible. They just don't know it yet.

 No one cares for financial bondage from cradle to grave by way of DEBT-based-fiat ponzi schemes and other banking ponzi schemes.


 Bitcoin is Capitalism. And that's exactly why Bankers and certain other types such as communists, fascists, and dictators absolutely hate it.
=============

  i.e. - if one thinks deregulation and privatization are 'the solutions' (per Ron Paul 2008) and Alan Greenspan, plus Ann Rand then one is 100% wrong. That's how they began stealing everything. And their not going to stop stealing everything (that's what financial pirates who are cunning psychopaths do, their employees too) until their stopped, or ruin everything for everyone, it will be the latter in the present case. And that's when their time ends and how this insanity finally ends up in the dust bin of history.


Bitcoin is Freedom.

 Grow the hell up! Or prepare to see your complete and total ruin.

 These kiddies are spoiled so rotten their inhuman parasites.


RE: " I see the immortality of taxes.  I recognize the evil of using government force to take the product of a citizen's effort and use it for….anything.  ANYTHING."

 What a parasitical maggot. What a bum. A thief. A criminal. A low life scumbag.

 This scumbag: Just like the central bankers and their member banks whom demand the FED's earnings are 100% tax free at the FED. Of course they print their (our) dollars for free electronically. Then have the gall to insist our government and us pay for them in perpetuity (forever) at usurious (ruinous) rates of interest.

 Well those "libertarians" at the FED will cost the citizens of the USA nearly half a Trillion dollars this year alone. And it just keeps getting much worse every passing day. Soon it ends badly.

 Your NOT a "true" anything but a parasitical maggot. What a bum. A thief. A criminal. A low life scumbag. Your a traitor. A risk to national security. Just like the Fed.

 OP you come here to whine and cry about taxes when your nothing but an immoral and evil scumbag. Get over it. Grow UP. Or else it's going to end badly for you too.

 This is exactly what happens to children that have terrible parenting or just turn out to be spoiled rotten worthless psychopaths or sociopaths. Usually caused by a lack of a good male role model. I blame it mostly on spoiled rotten mothers whom toss out the fathers.


The OP; yet another freeloading parasitical maggot. Yea, you think you can hide behind some form of anonymity and not pay taxes with bitcoins. Your an idiot.

 And then he/she has the nerve to come here and attempt to preach capitalism when they never have apparently practiced it themselves and know nothing about real capitalism.


Bitcoin is sheer justice.

yes they're real ...

you should watch this video at this point ... 18'25''

http://youtu.be/ed2FWNWwE3I?t=18m25s

I dont beleive in city, wall st. bonus schema ... and European is right to rule a cap on bank bonuses... of course the right wing politicians backed by bankers are against it and sing their anti european song .. nationalism yada yada .. bla bla  

 The OP here is preaching to return not to colonial times, but instead to mid-evil feudalism. Of course he doesn't even know the first thing about that either.

 We pay for these worthless creatures educations, subsidize their parents while their raised, often subsidize their health care costs and a whole lot more, care for them as any civilized society does. Even go as far as keep their neighborhoods safe as we can, keep the roads built, provide all the services for a modern society that one possibly can, even fire trucks at the ready. This is how they behave in turn...

 Then these maggots come here and preach what?

 By all means Grow Up OP.

 Put the drugs or whatever down.

 Get a job. Earn money. Be happy.


 So far the only ones that are immoral is the OP and now another fool. What ass-wipes.

 You know nothing.

The planet have limited resources ...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zsPW2N-URn8/UVEpqVbPD-I/AAAAAAAAAqI/MS7-kAPKplI/s1600/stop+pollution+save+earth.jpg

Do you have anything to say beyond "grow up" and name calling? You don't need to attack the original poster to disagree, just make your case and let people decide.

I am a libertarian and actually agree with some of your points. You lost me with the condescending hyper aggressive bullshit though.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYJtHd28BXU


Related to capitalism and morality.

Captaism have many problems ... and I'm against the bankers bonus scheme (if they make profit they pocket as bonus, if they have losses then is their clients money and in the last instance the tax payers will pay the bill, because they're too big to fail ... is complete unfair game ) I still beleive in satoshi's message on genesis block though thats the reason idealists still on this communite, isn't it ? ...

The economy of the colonies flourished because of the support of merchant princes. These new breed of economic barons became wealthy as a result of the Industrial Revolution. The revolution, in turn, was financed by the taxes generated from the Jamaican sugar industry. Post independence, the American socioeconomic model is extremely socialist - especially for entrepreneurs.

Capitalism, as we know it today, only emerged in the mid-19th century when more businesses began to emerge independent of the arms of the aristocracy and its proxies. However, its incredible success was achieved on the back of low-to-zero labor cost of slave laborers and an enormous amount of natural resources and land.

The issue is a complex one.

So, American success has nothing to do with capitalism?

That's right. American capitalism has always been a smokescreen for oligarchy. The term capitalism refers to the financial affairs of state, not how your community operates.

Where resources are not unlimited, capitalism is the only way to efficiently allocate resources over a large population. It's not about capital, but about decentralization. The size and complexity anything is inversely proportional to the degree that centralization works. Capitalism is the decentralization of allocation.

Only? Capitalism is a way to aggregate resources (capital) through private means. Private != decentralized.

There is no economic system or political power structure on earth that will mitigate the effects of greed.  

We have only our own nature to blame for that one.

Agree with above poster, but capitalism encourages greed.

Any system that unshackles restraints on how much a person can acquire in this life promotes greed.  As it would turn out, capitalism so far has been best at it.
 
This is the core issue where morality, economics, and politics meet.  How does a country balance out that "greed" vs need for the betterment of as many of its people as it can?  Communism and fascism tried and were found to be very lacking. 

Need to have balance approach. Stalin and Mao run a fascist regime, people are mistaking it for Communism.

We never tried being smart.

Well, anything is an improvement form the status quo, but i don't think capitalism is the best way forward.

I personally believe in ubuntu, however i doubt it will gain enough traction.

Freedom is greedy, and statism is moral.  ::)

Sadly it doesn't work out that way, it would be great if it would. But the rich are usually getting richer or at least stay rich. They have the wealth to give their children good education, they have the connections to lead them to a good job. Most of the poor never have a real chance no matter how hard they try.
Of course there are execptions where someone makes it from zero to hero or falls down from wealth, but it isn't the norm.




There are no natural rights, only rights we make up ourselves as humanity.

Google Image "tesla bloodline" ... this is how things should of turned out

and technical as well, I would add to the list ... This, reflect somehow the way bitcoin protocol works ... take a look about "Selfish Mining"


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326559.0

 ;)

Keep blaming greed and human nature and see how far you get. It's like complaining about the density of air for why we don't have flying cars.

Ayn Rand makes a strong case for the morality of capitalism. People who are interested can read her. I largely agree with her case. So, good for the OP. Fun fact: Rand hated libertarians.

The basis of most libertarian moral judgements go back to the NAP (non-aggression principle). Since taxes are clearly collected under threat of punishment, taxation can be seen as an initiation of aggression. So taxation can be seen as morally incompatible with the NAP.

I also find anti-capitalism propaganda annoying, but the important thing is that it's informative. When someone starts talking about people paying their "fair share" and so on, it informs me their morality is not based on the NAP. In fact, they clearly think it is moral to steal my property, as long as its done via governments. A great thing about bitcoin is that they can want to steal it all they want, but they still can't actually steal it. In fact, I'm so against them taking my bitcoins that I purposefully lost all my private keys in a tragic boating accident.

Even if I get annoyed, I certainly don't want to put anti-capitalists in prison for having a different lifestyle from me. It's a shame they want to put libertarians in prison for refusing to conform to their lifestyle.

Note that the morality of capitalism is independent of whether or not capitalism is an efficient, productive economic system. There is a lot of evidence for defending capitalism in that way as well. It's simply a different question.

To answer a few questions…..

OP I have a few questions for you.

1. Do you believe in bailouts for failure?
         No.  Not government bailouts.  Never.

2. Do you believe in Bonuses for failure?
         No.  Not for government entities.  If private organizations or corporations want to give bonuses for failure, that's their concern.  Unless I am a stockholder, I couldn't     
               care less.

3. Do you believe the wealthy deserve to be saved from ruin through bailouts for failure?
       I don't believe anybody deserves to be saved from failure if that means others have to pay for it.

4. Do you believe others should be bailed out while still others are forced to pay for those bailouts?
       Nope.

" Sure, society needs to care for those that can't or wont, but not "reward" them. "
       Oh, heck no!  That's the immorality of altruism working.  If private individuals want to help the less fortunate, that is allowed.  Forcing somebody to be charitable is wrong. Immoral. Evil.


Finally, the last few posts kept using the word "greed" like it a bad thing.  It's not.  To quote Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good. Greed works."  Greed is each person looking out for themselves and striving to accumulate as much wealth as possible.  This is what drives innovation and industry.  I want everybody who is capable of achieving stellar success to get there, because they lift up average people like me in the process.  Capitalism protects me from being abused or forced to work for someone else.


People who achieve wealth through government subsidies and favors are helping nobody but themselves.  They lack the ability to succeed on their own and rely on pull and influence to get ahead.  They are the immoral product of altruism.

The problems with fractional systems are not easy ...


How big is infinity? - Dennis Wildfogel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPA3bwVVzGI

The Infinite Hotel Paradox - Jeff Dekofsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj3_KqkI9Zo

Fractional-reserve banking,

The word greed is bad by defintion, it's wanting something so badly that the negative consequences outdo all positives.
If you are searching for the good word, it's "ambition".

Ok, enough of unimportant blather, here is where the main problem stems from:

Sorry to break this news to you, but it doesn't. Unless you think dieing by starvation is acceptable as alternative.
There are others forces than those by persons.

So you can talk about "non aggression principle" all day, the fact is you are completely ignoring those other forces even when they can be just as cruel as the "aggression" you hate so much.

Capitalism is neither inherently good or evil. Hopefully one day we can actually try out free market capitalism somewhere.

I already bashed on the so-called immorality of taxation, even when we can't perceive a direct service by the State: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=617895.msg6931130#msg6931130

I also have issues with calling capitalism the only moral system of government.

Because it's an economic system, not a political one, and has only some consequences on the political system, mainly protection of property and some economic freedoms. Says nothing about political freedom, elections, division of powers, etc.

Because it can have real immoral consequences, especially if unregulated. Actually, completely unregulated, ends up killing it self, because of monopolies.

The current system is stacked to give the state nearly unlimited power. The crony capitalism you cite above are symptoms of the overall disease. Transparency in government solves 95% of the problems with the current crony capitalism system.

The enlargement of the current social functions of the state is a consequence of the enlargement of voting: everyone can vote, including the poor; the poor want social protection, therefore, high taxes.

In reality, the State doesn't have that much power, but the state serves the majority of the people, that decides who wins elections.

Anyone wanting to attack the social functions of the state must attack universal democracy. Therefore, this kind of discourse ends in fascism very easily

I've not seen someone put the pro-taxation argument quite so eloquently before!  Have you written any books on the subject you could direct me to?

 So the OP states whatever private parties/corporations do such as bailing out others is okay, just not to dare consider bailing out governments.

 Interesting.

 So TARP Bill was wrong? But it was the private sector begging for tarp was it not? Even CNBC 'money honey' begged everyone to sell, sell, sell, on live TV 'so they will pass TARP'

 But it's okay to bailout GM and even a private equity firm called Chrysler Corp? really? NO? O, because it's government bailouts. Hey, great, we agree on something else OP.


 But the secret multi-trillion dollar bailouts by the privately held FED corp. were perfectly fine with the OP?

Even though us 'little people' are forced to pay for the ruling wealthy elites backdoor bailouts, much less others getting bailouts even though they too ended up being wiped out along with the banks, wall street and the insurance companies and pension funds? (everyone was wiped out...in 2008-2009, then bailed out, essentially).

 And the FED paying zero taxes is perfectly fine?

 And the FED forcing all of us to pay usurious rates of interest on every last dollar in circulation into perpetuity is perfectly fine?

 And so it must be perfectly fine with the OP that we're all slaves to the likes of those that believe just like himself, of course him included?


 So the FED, whom lost, and all the ruling wealthy elite, whom lost, all lost everything, as in insolvent, bankruptcy, LOSERS...they can always be saved, but everyone else must play naked capitalism? Is that correct OP? IF so your a fascist or communist.


 Your story falls apart OP.

 Relentless greed, insider trading, frauds, etc. are not the solutions, their the problems.


 Limited governments sounds great, but someone still has to pay for it.

 END THE FED and suddenly no, we wont have to pay any more income taxes. But those like the OP seem to think the Fed is wonderful?


 Don't like it? Then try and change it.

 Sure; I want half my lifetime income (the money) I have paid in taxes all my life to support bums like you OP, for your entire lives. Damn straight.

 Sure; I am sick of supporting parasites and many other bums like you OP.

 And very soon those like myself will be doing tap dances on your head and forcing those just like the OP to pay up and be locked away.

 We're not going to allow you in anymore. Your going to be forced to carry your own water. O the horror...


 As for capitalism and solutions: Yes, built on the backs of labor and limited supplies of resources.
Just don't try and explain that to those like the OP, they can't comprehend reality. Their apparently sociopaths and psychopaths.


 What next OP? exterminate the handicapped, the disabled, the mentally ill, and other groups, maybe even races or nations that refuse to cower to your demands?

 Why not just exterminate the criminals and crimminally insane like yourself OP? Wouldn't that make much more sense? (just kidding, sorta).


 All while what? You (OP) apparently worship the criminal banking cartel that now holds almost the entire world in financial debt bondage?


 Go back to the drawing board OP. We will rip you apart here, your in way over your head.


 BTW: Review Norway. It has a viable solution to make everyone that is half reasonable happy, but it too is based on limited resources unless we get off this rock called earth. Yet it is the sole guiding light so far. Model society off Norway and that's a darn fine start for everyone. But then the OP has no clue about any of that (real, decent, honorable, Capitalism, in a realistically true social democracy).


 Fascists and Communists all hate me, I am their worst nightmare. Just like the Fascist Banksters.


END THE FED.

End all debt based fiat.

Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.


The OP sucks.

nuff said.

You raise a very good, established point from the world of economics. Realize, however, that economics is a soft science unlike chemistry or physics. The theories of economics can't be tested, only observed.

 All economic theory to date is horribly flawed. The economic experts certainly know it. But then they also know who they work for too, and whom not to dare cross.

 Western Economic theory, Austrian Economic theory, both horribly flawed.

 Yet fools fall for one, or the other.

 Just like they were suckered into voodoo economics too.

 And for the very same reasons (self serving greed).


 Enough forcing future generations to pay for the past and present generations.

 END THE FED.

Capitalism is only truly possible if the means of exchange is not controlled by an entity.
Hence... bitcoin is capitalism's perfect tool  :)

Capitalism isn't evil. People are evil.

+1

Best regards.

Where, in any of my posts, did I say all that?  Are you reading the correct thread? Go back and read them again.  Geesh.

Immortality any day.
Immortality basically allows you to do anything you like and that's the end of it...money doesn't stop someone from gunning you down now does it?

Robots. I win.  ;D

Even robots can be destroyed! Nothing (99%) is indestructible. Nothing human anyway.

Anarchy > Capitalism. Anarchy means without hierarchy. It means no man belongs to any other, to any degree without consent. It also means you economically illiterate communists and socialists can all band together in shared misery... while us capitalists will associate and contract without whomever we choose as well.

But who will keep people from killing each other?
Some kind of basic order is necessary. The right to life has to be enforced by someone.

I agree. Government is necessary to protect the rights of its citizens. And nothing more.

People who don't want to get killed stop themselves from killing other people. In preventing a "bad guy" from killing a "good guy", the government also stops good guys from killing bad guys right back. You want to know how a stateless court would handle the rape of my daughter? They wouldn't. I'd have killed the fucker first.

Says the wolf to the sheep.

Wouldn't you prefer that there was some kind of surveillance on the streets to prevent the raping in the first place?
How would you find the raper without an organized police?

I probably can imagine over 1000 ways of this system going totally wrong.

If you are ever going to found a state with an anarchy-like system, you better have a more solid plan than "we just kill the bad guys" up your sleeves.
Otherwise, please remind me to stay very far away from that place, there is going to be a bloodbath.

There will be ways to maintain order. Maybe neighborhoods band together to hire peace officers etc. This idea that civilization can't exist without central authority is simply wrong. Civilized people create governments, governments do not civilize people. 

In the same way it's wrong to assume that every government has to be bad, just because our current ones are kinda bad.

Maybe there are ways to manage a society in a decentralised way, just like Bitcoin is a way to solve some currency problems in a decentralized way.
I haven't heard many convincing ideas in that regard though and it isn't really helping that quite some liberatarians/anarchists use the word "free market" like it's some magic that will automatically cure all problems.

I am a libertarian but not an anarchist. I believe in limited government for defense and enforcing contracts. Anything else is too much.

Especially stuff which gets worse in capitalistic systems (e.g. a widening social gap between rich and poor) and stuff nobody feels responsible for (e.g. some environmental problems) needs to be solved in some way.

That kind of stuff happens with crony capitalism. The big players get bailouts and the average people lose their homes. A truly free market would solve more social problems than it would create.

Yes, but I'm certain it is a problem in all forms of capitalism. Social capitalism is actually supposed to lessen those effects, however the politcians might call our system this name, but often they are actually doing the opposite - like with those bailouts.

Does your truly free market allow monopolies?

OP, without any taxes (revenues) there can be no society, no properly enforced laws, no rules guiding society, nor a lot of other things we all take for granted such as firemen, police, and a long list of other things such as emergency medical services no matter if one can afford them or not at the time of service.

 We all dislike taxes. But taxes are not inherently 'evil'.

 Debt-based fiat is evil. The FED is evil. Private Central Banks are evil. They lie constantly by stating the FED is part of the USA government but that is a flat out lie. It's a private, for profit, tax exempt, corporation owned fully by it's member banks, largely by it's largest banks, and controlled by them as well, but not part of any government. The FED is fully autonomous and fully independent, and answers to no one but it's Owners/Shareholders, it's Major Controlling Shareholders -it's largest member banks, that by the way were all were hopelessly bankrupted and fully insolvent and worse since long before 2008. Not to mention all the felony frauds they committed and other serious crimes. But then were bailed out with at least 15 Trillion is secret loans so far, and it's far from other.

 It's a giant series of schemes and scams. Before the FED we didn't have income taxes at all. They were not needed. The FED loans the USA all it's dollars through bonds since it started in 1913, one hundred years ago. And the USA pays forever interest on all those dollars it borrows. But by mathematics alone it's impossible to pay all the debts back as soon as the very first dollar is loaned out there is more debt plus interest than dollars. $1 loaned to the USA doesn't equal $1 + 0.05 cents interest that is owed after a year or whatever. The debts can never be paid back, it isn't possible to ever pay the debt down significantly, there isn't enough dollars by it's very evil design. It's pure evil.

 They suckered all of our ancestors one hundred years ago. It's rapped in a riddle, tied up in a twisted web of deceit, and contorted so much that almost hardly anyone ever knew the facts until rather recently. Now many know. It wont stand much longer. The FED is nearly dead.

 Without the cost of The FED and the Debt-based currency that goes with it (dollars as we know them) we don't have to endure income taxes on ones labor anymore by way of suddenly saving up to or maybe even more more than one trillion dollars every single year. Merely the interest cost this year alone will be close to half a trillion dollars on all the borrowed dollars from The FED. That just keeps getting ever more expensive every year, along with ever higher debts.

 Or merely end corporate taxation instead of ending income tax on ones labor. In fact already corporate taxation has nearly been ended, and at the same time peoples taxes have gone way up. Corporations used to pay nearly 1/3 of all taxes, but today barely cover a mere 9% in taxes collected. All while they continue to cry out they pay far too much taxes.

 Much like the highest paid professionals in the USA (Physicians) claim their still vastly underpaid while passing on the very highest health care costs in the entire world by a huge margin. Yet it's much more complicated there since doctors costs are usually not the obscene levels that hospitals, surgery, and some pharmaceuticals costs today. They charge that much simply because they can get away with it. Their thieves though, pirates, holding peoples lives at ransom. They routinely bankrupt even well to do people with so called good insurance when ever they become seriously ill or in a serious accident. We can't afford any of them. And we can't afford trillion dollar wars, or trillion dollar war planes, nor a lot of other extreme waste. We cannot afford the at least one trillion per year in corporate welfare either.
 
 Those and many other things have lead us all into financial ruin as a nation. They gamed us all. Many of these same one's grossly defrauded us. Much like the Banksters whom should all have been in prison as of several years ago. Now it's ending, or about to start to end. One way or another this ends badly for them, and the rest of us too.

 It's time to reverse all these trends and many more.

 Greed, excessive, unchecked greed isn't good. Even Gordon Gekko in Wall Street 2.0 admitted as much. Even he learned that much. But his latest movie didn't go over well with the 'greed is good' crowd on wall street, nor in the wealthy gated country clubs. Today their so sick and twisted that their immorality has maybe forever ruined their ability to be remotely caring about anyone else anymore. Today their mostly merely sociopaths and sociopaths whom care not for anything but their own indulging self serving interests. Greed is good, but not excessive, ruinous types of greed, it's no good at all, and not fraudulent nor criminal greed, their both terrible wrongs.

 Capitalism is wonderful and by far the most successful system ever devised. It represents closely what nature is, and likely that is why it's so very successful. But it's not without flaws. And just like governments it needs strong, prudent checks and balances. Today those have been lost.

 It's not capitalism that is immoral in any way, shape or form. But instead those that game the very heart of capitalism and it's rules and laws to their own nefarious ends. These types believe the rules and laws only apply to others. Their true psychopaths in their very nature.

 Idiots that decry that 'corporations are people too', their the very problems today. Their not practicing capitalism, but instead predatory theft of this very nation-state. Corporations are NOT people. 87% of the population agrees. The USA supreme court of Injustice once again showed it's true and very much immoral and traitorous colors there. The wealthy elite and most powerful corporations have fully bought and paid for even our highest court, and of course also congress, the sec, the fda, and even the doj, or so it obviously appears. They have them all in their back pockets. It's just reality until we again change that.

 The evidence is a plain as a blue sky on a cloudless day. Some know this. Merely a few deny it, and many just don't care and OR don't have any clue. But facts are facts. Today their masks are off, the curtains have been drawn back. Their fangs drip blood, they have looted the world of tens of trillions of dollars. And it was NOT true capitalism that enabled them.

 Many just got carried away, some just started believing in their own nonsense, others are simply rotten and evil to their very cores.

 Capitalism (real, live, by the laws and rules capitalism) allowed for the biggest economic sucess in all history from 1950 to 1970, with the very highest tax rates in all history for the wealthiest corporations and people, but modest taxes for everyone else. Yet corporations and the wealthy made money hand over fist back then too. It was sustainable, unlike this nightmare today. As long as they didn't cash out and also paid their employees well they were not heavily taxed. In essence they were forced to pay living wages to the point a single income earner could support their entire family well, and afford everything required. Under the highest tax rates ever (for the wealthiest) we all thrived and the wealthiest thrived too. If those corporations back then refused to be prudent and wise then they paid in taxes those same missed wages so simply put corporations were then forced to pay a living wage or be taxed into submission. Short term speculators were heavily taxed. Hedge funds today speculate short term yet pay the lowest tax rates due to government coercion and influence. What should be and likely is in direct violation of the RICO Act, much like many other things the doj looks the other way on.

 We could debate it all but it wont do any good unless we all know these same facts. So far not many at all do. In fact very, very few of us understand all these facts and much more.

 There are some whom believe if we end corporate taxes we will have the best of worlds. In fact it's quite the opposite as the last few decades has displayed unless someone else (people) pay far higher taxes.

 Corporations have no conscious, and only a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to earn as much as possible. And why they must be held in check by others or their not going to be even willing to pay a living wage to anyone that they aren't coerced into doing one way or another, and yes it's only being forced to do so will they then behave. Decades of tax cuts for the wealth and corporations have done nothing but further destroy what we all once had (the largest, widest, most prosperous middle class in history). By pure accident we arrived in that extremely high tax period to pay off world war two. By accident we learned how to do something that the wealthy are too foolish to comprehend. (The more they pay their employees the more it will trickle back up, not down, just as Henry Ford also knew).

 Many lies and untruths have been swallowed hook line and sinker these last few decades. I did all the research, I analyzed all the facts and data, the conclusions are most obvious. But by all means do the same thing and one will find the same results. It's all self evident for anyone willing to do the vital research, it wasn't that difficult to figure out the truth but it did require a lot of reading, study, and analysis.

 Many are "not good" people. Their far too self serving, far too greedy, many, even most corporations far too cruel to their workers, and far too fraudulently generous to their highest paid executives. There must be a much better balance or none of it is sustainable except at third and second world standards of living.

 One alternative is to force only corporations and the wealthiest to pay all income taxes, and not an absolutely terrible plan at that since sadly their the ones that have been allowed to purchase the very best government that deep pockets can hope to purchase today.

 And ironically all while corporations and their wealthy owners spin the facts and blame the very government they themselves almost fully control, all while most of the fools and dupes below fall for that nonsense ("it's all the governments fault") when it's the very corporations and wealthy that are pulling the puppets strings in the halls of congress and elsewhere in government. In other words the corporations and wealthy are blaming themselves when they blame government because their the ones controlling government.

 But I don't believe it would be wise nor prudent to tax merely corporations and the wealthy since at that point the wealthy and corporations would be then claiming no one else should have hardly any say what so ever, and almost rightly so since they would appear at least on the surface to be picking up the income tax tab. But that isn't the case at all. Prices would simply rise and the costs would be born by everyone, and mostly not by anyone else but the hordes of people (consumers) resulting in yet another indirect tax scheme that the people in the private sector would pay for.

 In this world, it's the Private sector that pays all the costs. The Workers and Corporations in the Private sector provide for everyone else. The rest are merely public servants, and contractors for the various governments. Their all expenses and pay no net revenues even though their made to think they do. Instead their merely rebating some back again into tax coffers which is then almost immediately returned to them. It's the Private sector that bares to entire costs of society. Most don't grasp even that much.

 Today people in this world, and corporations too, pay many more taxes than just income taxes. Today governments have the biggest debt bubbles in all of history because they failed to do their jobs and allowed themselves to be gamed by the very corporations and wealthy, plus a very long list of others that then turn around and blame it on those that worked hard all their lives and suddenly are told they don't deserve any returns on their tax investments nor any of their social security payments returned either.

 Try paying 15.3% of your lifetime earning into any pension, like most have paid into Social Security and Medicare, then turning around and being told you don't deserve anything back. That's what one side would have us all believe. And if it's a war, a full on civil war, cold or hot that one desires, then that's exactly how to trigger one in that order. Today it's a cold civil war. But it may not stay that way if the government turns against it's very peoples! Government has forgotten their merely servants of the people. They too have lost their way and minds. Or so it surely appears to be exactly that in many various ways. If one has been paying close attention then one knows exactly what I am referring to, and if not, well they say ignorance is bliss, but I heatedly disagree here.

 The shit is already hitting the fan for 15 years running since April 2000 in terms of the debt levels and unsustainable financial path almost the entire world finds itself in.

 We're merely half way through this shit-storm termed the Greater Depression and world record debts, yet the clowns controlling things claim we're in recovery since what? 2010. NOT. All while these same predator capitalists (fascists, communists, feudalist's, whatever...one care's to label them, criminals rings a bell...) demand to borrow and spend future generations monies by way of QE to infinity to further support their pirating plunder and rob the poor and even the entire middle class of every last dollar and asset they possibly can through the ravages of severe inflation now possibly quite close by. In short their criminals with slick, silk suits. They know it, we know it. It ends badly for everyone.
And the entire upper classes are going along with them since it's in their own self serving interests. Maybe not all of the entire upper classes, but certainly far too many of them to yet stop the insanity. The last time something like this occurred it triggered the Great Depression and World War 2. History is already rhyming again.

 Capitalism isn't bad. In fact it's the best economic system to date.

 But some people are absolutely no good. Others not so bad, but not so good. Still others okay, and some quite good, a few awesome.

 They conned generations. Now comes the bills.

They refuse to pay, and so do we. It ends badly.

 They demand we pay. I refuse. You refuse too OP.

 But I will pay my taxes. It's the law.

 We must support the elderly whom paid all their lives into social security and medicare, and simply cannot work much anymore, but means testing and restructuring of coverages seems mandatory going forward for at least the upper classes. Same for the very sick, the disabled, and others that paid in all their lives and expect the contract to be fulfilled that they were forced compulsively to pay into their entire lives if ever able to. They did their part, lived up to their end, yet the pirates and other immoral types would have us dump all these into the streets and far worse.

 We also must pay the other costs associated with government. Like it or not. Those costs must be paid somehow. But not with predators preying off all of us by way of loaning us our very currency we utilize and then all the evil that goes with such nonsense. (see above...).

 Corporations and wealthiest, including their puppets in Congress and in the White House can find only tens of trillions to prop up their own needs,  and desires with their ten's of trillions in bailouts; damn the rest to hell and the second or even third world. Far too many naive and gullible people are buying in to their many almost unending string of lies. I can only strongly suggest to turn off the TV News and read the news online instead, and beware what any major corporate controlled news source parrots as news but is all too often corporate propaganda.

 I am setting the record straight here in a thread called "Re: Capitalism and immorality"

 It's not "real capitalism" that is immoral. Quite the contrary. Capitalism so far the best economic system devised because it motivates all to achieve sucess and doesn't ever reward failure with bonuses and bailouts.

 These pirates today demand we all reward their failures with bailouts for them, and austerity for the rest of us.

 And to add further insult that we issue their key employees  bonuses on top of their bailouts, and likely merely to keep their key employees from turning states evidence of the many crimes and frauds committed by and for their corporate and wealthy masters, or at their very directions at the very least. Sadly hardly any of them have yet met the halls of justice. But they will, and all their ill gotten gains will be clawed back. Their no different than Maddoff. As the world unwinds and shit further hits the fans people in mass will demand it. So will even the puppets in the halls of government.

 Now we're at war and they don't like it.

 Their going down for the count.

 But like it or not society must pay taxes or resort to living in entirely off the lands in a mid-evil type of state, much like the third world, and even then their will be feudal lords demanding their surfs pay a kings ransom in taxes. The third world is not any utopia, not even for the feudal lords. It sucks to put it bluntly. If the reader has any doubt then go visit it, it's very close by where ever the reader resides. And even the second world is no comparison to the first world. Already much of the first world of both Europe and the USA as well as other locals have already quickly sunk into the second world these last several years. So there. The battle rages on.

 They (the wealthy ruling elite and most powerful corporations) declared war on all the rest of us a few decades ago, maybe even several decades ago. Now we must take the war to their door steps and drag the criminals off to prison, and claw back all their ill gotten gains. It may not prove easy, but it's got to be done. And we must come up with superior concepts and methods. Satoshi Nakomoto did just that with Bitcoin.

 Your demands that "taxes are evil" is wrong. Their required for all societies. IF you don't care to pay them don't, but beware of the cruelest mobsters all called revenuers (the tax agents). Eventually they tend to crush those that force everyone else to carry their water, per say. I tend to fully agree that tax cheats are criminals, and if their big cheats they deserve to lose everything, and forced to work off extremely large fines for decades, but certainly not in prison, but instead working their tails off to pay society back, plus heavy fines. Far too many get off with merely a couple of years in prison and not much else besides forced to start over, that too must change. Instead of prison that again costs everyone else enormous amounts we need to devise more equitable compliance methods.

 If the OP disagrees I suggest shopping around the world, but I seriously doubt one will find a better deal than what the USA or other first world countries offer them, or at least had offered just a few decades ago, and will soon have again.

 Many will simply not allow anything nor anyone to hijack our country, same in other countries. No matter what the costs, no matter what it takes, we're not surrendering to threats, nor any fear tactics, nor any type of fascism or communism, much less predator style capitalism which is just another word for neo-fuedalism. We're not in fear of our military nor our police. Their us, not the wealthy ruling elite nor the corporate executives. They wont turn on their own peoples. Not a chance. It's a giant bluff, and ruse, propagated by wealthy cowards whom are psychopaths, or at the very least sociopaths. One way or another their end is near. And if we all fail, then the heavens will end up raining fallout or at least hot battles and wars in every first world country before much longer. Either way, their end is very near. It's them that are now held in checkmate. And up to a billion or more souls if sheer madness ends up doing the unthinkable.

The stakes suddenly couldn't be higher. Yet their cowards. I already know who wins these wars. I just don't yet know how it will end.

 Our children and grandchildren deserve far better, so do we. After all, even our military's veterans now largely agree.


Bitcoin is Pure Capitalism.

If someone comes up with a good or service that is better than anything else sure. If they try to inflate the price other people will come up with a cheaper version forcing the first group to drop prices or go out of business. Monopolies are problems when states interfere with markets. 

What if the monopoly is supply-based? E.g. I own most of the watersources in a region. Or I own all the roads surrounding area x, so everybody has to pass through them?
And it doesn't end there. There are a lot of sectors where new companies are at heavy disadvantage. E.g. industries that require a lot of infrastructure like internet providers or energy companies.

Not all of them can be beaten by competition.

@Slingshot: It's too late to read such a wall of text, going to sleep now.But I've skimmed over it though and there are some good arguments in it.

 Birdy, it's all there for those that want and desire to know the facts. As for you telling me to go to sleep now? Who the heck do you think you are kid? Or is that just another old fool or shill attempting in vain to keep being a parasite and prey off everyone else? Your words don't ring sincere, at all. And since your a very slow reader as well as a very lame duck I suggest you do a lot of research before hopping in here barking orders that you cannot and wont be able to back up.

 You don't tell me what to do. No one does. I am my own boss.

 But Birdy your welcome to go suck up to your corporate or government masters. Have fun!

 As for "privatization" quote above: Well, hows that privatization/deregulation of electric and water rates working out for any of you?
Not so good hey? Some still drink the sand because their told it's clean, clear, unpolluted water. Go figure, most are easily fooled and suckered.

 And some even tell people to 'go to sleep' if they don't care for what is stated.
In return I say to Birdy: off you go, go be an obedient worker slave and fool.
After all your the one barking and acting like an idiot.


Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.

Money is a primitive technology. When money holds greater value than increasing abundance of resources and quality of life, then it becomes toxic to the progress of society. When money is optimized to develop appropriate technologies, then resources will improve the quality of life for society. A society that promotes only technology development and not money (or any other less useful technologies for that matter), will see abundance and an ever progressing quality of life.

Hopefully, Bitcoin will prove itself as more than just money, but also a tool that promotes progress.

Hey Birdy, is this the part you hate so much...

=======================================================================================
 Debt-based fiat is evil. The FED is evil. Private Central Banks are evil. They lie constantly by stating the FED is part of the USA government but that is a flat out lie. It's a private, for profit, tax exempt, corporation owned fully by it's member banks, largely by it's largest banks, and controlled by them as well, but not part of any government. The FED is fully autonomous and fully independent, and answers to no one but it's Owners/Shareholders, it's Major Controlling Shareholders -it's largest member banks, that by the way were all were hopelessly bankrupted and fully insolvent and worse since long before 2008. Not to mention all the felony frauds they committed and other serious crimes. But then were bailed out with at least 15 Trillion is secret loans so far, and it's far from other.

 It's a giant series of schemes and scams. Before the FED we didn't have income taxes at all. They were not needed. The FED loans the USA all it's dollars through bonds since it started in 1913, one hundred years ago. And the USA pays forever interest on all those dollars it borrows. But by mathematics alone it's impossible to pay all the debts back as soon as the very first dollar is loaned out there is more debt plus interest than dollars. $1 loaned to the USA doesn't equal $1 + 0.05 cents interest that is owed after a year or whatever. The debts can never be paid back, it isn't possible to ever pay the debt down significantly, there isn't enough dollars by it's very evil design. It's pure evil.

 They suckered all of our ancestors one hundred years ago. It's rapped in a riddle, tied up in a twisted web of deceit, and contorted so much that almost hardly anyone ever knew the facts until rather recently. Now many know. It wont stand much longer. The FED is nearly dead.

 Without the cost of The FED and the Debt-based currency that goes with it (dollars as we know them) we don't have to endure income taxes on ones labor anymore by way of suddenly saving up to or maybe even more more than one trillion dollars every single year. Merely the interest cost this year alone will be close to half a trillion dollars on all the borrowed dollars from The FED. That just keeps getting ever more expensive every year, along with ever higher debts.

=======================================================================================

 Sucks to be a Bankster like you? knowing your end is near eh?
Yea, after thinking about it a moment I figure your an obvious low level banking employee.
Must suck to make so little and do the devils work for such evil.

 Get used to that Birdy. And soon to be Jail bird Birdy?

 As for the 'long wall of words' or whatever. You must be a bird brain birdy?

 Now off to sleep birdy, you still got scams to perpetrate right? Sleep well...

We had that private system of enforcement (family, friends, and, with much luck, the one eye for an eye business) in the archaic Rome.

The creditor could arrest a debtor in his private jail, until someone came to pay his debts.

Because of all the abuses, slowly, for hundred of years, that systems was abolished and replaced by a decision of an impartial and public judge, responsible in front of the community.

Anarchism wants to return to the archaic system? Just buy an island far away.

I don't think it is an either or proposition. I am not an anarchist but I do think we can have a civilized world without strong centralized governments. Decentralized power would probably make a more peaceful world.   

Power never disappears. It will go to somebody.

You can have situations like the small communities of Switzerland with direct democracy. They have serious power, in social security, in health care, in urban issues, etc. So, it's the neighbors in assembly that will decide if someone should keep their unemployment benefits or not. I wonder if anyone of us would like to see the neighbors decide our life.

I prefer a thousand times an anonymous central power.

Slingshot-

I just couldn't bring myself to read that entire long post, sorry.  I think you and I actually agree on most things.  As a libertarian, I am for anything that increases freedom and against anything that decreases freedom.  I am for taxes that pay for police, military and courts because these increase freedom.  Every other tax decreases freedom.

As I am also a physician, I should probably comment on healthcare. Costs are so high because of government interference in the free market. The price structure and physician reimbursement is so screwed up, who knows what the true free market price should be.  A quick example.  Did you know that a Dermatologist (removes moles all day long) makes about 3 times what a general surgeon makes? A radiologist makes about twice of all of them to sit in a room and read films all day. No long hours, no nights, no weekends, no being called in ever. 
This is all the consequence of government dominated healthcare.  Pressure groups get little changes to the law that greatly benefit their people at the expense of the poor patients. Get government out of health care completely and watch things normalize. No Medicare, no Medicade, no friggin ObamaCare. No more price fixing. Government dominance, that's the real reason healthcare costs are through the roof.

BTW, the exact thing can be said for education costs. Ugh! Don't get me started on that one!

Respectfully submitted,
Neofelis

and no one has quoted Gecko yet?

Greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

That movie was intended to be a satire.

Competition still applies pressure.  I concede that the mechanic is less potent in these cases than in that of a widget manufacturer, but it is there.  Should such a monopoly push its advantage too far, I believe it will be beaten by competition.

You didn't address the examples of how competition can be there. They can't. They are no-win situations for competition. You are a loser in those situations. Just face it. In competition, someone has to win and someone has to lose. In a competitive world, in order for someone to live, someone else has to die.

But that speech was absolutely true.  Greed drives people to produce.  I barely remember the film but I believe Gecko broke the law in his pursuit of wealth.  Capitalism places restraints on greed only in that a person's actions cannot violate the rights of any other person. As long as that rule is followed, please produce as much as your skills can allow.  It can only help me.   Plus Bitcoin will keep my purchasing power intact.  Win-win

It was 1 a.m. and I had to go to work next day, so I didn't really read your big wall of text and just skimmed over it, wanting to give it a proper treatment today.

I didn't tell you to go to sleep, I told you I was too tired to read this and I was going to sleep.



Wow you misread one sentence (even worse: the post contained praise for your arguments) and start a hate-tirade, what the heck is wrong with you? Drawing ridiculous conclusions from nowhere.

On a side note: No, I'm not in banking business.

The movie demonstrated that greed causes one to choose short term profits over long term profits. It was about the 1980's gutting of American manufacturing and dismantling vital infrastructure industries for short term profits. Greed is good if you don't mind killing your future profitability on the gamble that you will be able to repeat your short term easy money.

Greed is the motivation for the able (rich) ones. For the rest, the motivation is extreme necessity.

Think about the hell of the life of almost everyone: 9 to 5, plus 1 or 2 hours commuting. Alternative? Losing the house and having to live out of welfare or charity.

Everyone has an innate drive to survive better than they are currently. The left has vilified that in successful people by calling it greed. Everyone also has an innate drive to survive more efficiently. The right has vilified that in poor people by calling it lazy.

There are brain functions that can be scanned that will predict these types with a high degree of accuracy.

It's all in the brain.

But "success" is more related with social intelligence (good social interaction skills) than with intellectual capacity.

So money bright scientists that are losers on social terms. No family, no kids, no friends, little professional strong relations.

It's easy to try and criticize capitalism. People thrive on lapping up scraps while calling themselves 'determined' or 'enlightened'

People of such color are always ready to spread their legs for whatever will help them feel better.

Keen observation.

Also a good time to remind people not to judge so hastily.

Capitalism is ideal. It's perfect because everyone has that goal of becoming rich, and only a few do. It's all a competition.

No one has to "die" for someone else to live. Competition breeds progress and innovation. Innovation means not only can more people live but they can also live better. This isn't a zero sum game.

There are only so many resources to go around. If you are competing to deny people food and water to raise the market rates, then yes, people will die, just hopefully not enough people to cut into your profits too much. That is what capitalism is all about.

Not everyone has the goal of becoming rich, and I don't think any system is ideal.
But capitalism is definitely the best, as it is the one that gives us more freedom.

Don't forget competition from the supply side.

Ultimately, supply and demand will reach equilibrium in an ideal system.


What we have today is welfare state which let people breed without giving much thought. Personal responsibility isn't really in the mind of the people.

Expecting free shelter, food, cloth and education for their children is what get the US and Europe into the mess we have today.


This kind of practice is being done by local, both legal and illegal immigrant. Which make me kind of wonder how much longer the system will last.

You pulled this quote out of context. The subject was monopoly. I will not engage your strawman.

Are you Yaron Brook? I would have so many questions, if you are  ;)
Agree a 100%, bitcoin, just as internet, and the whole idea of decentralization is against government (the tribe elite) power.

Wow I am not even sure how to respond so such an absurd statement. You are clearly an extremist so there is no point in trying to reason with you.

If he is talking about monopoly on essential resources, then yes, the point is valid.

Evolution and market based competition are not pretty. Some species/people need to die to make room for other, that is how the system improve itself. Otherwise, dinosaur sill still be ruling the world right now.

No, the point is not valid.  cbeast is assuming that the competition in capitalism is between all parties, and that such competition is a life and death struggle.  Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion, for example, that in a purely capitalistic system, McDonalds would not delay in mounting machine-gun turrets on its stores to gun down as many customers and employees as it can.

In a free-market system, the competition comes from rival businesses, not from suppliers, workers, or customers.  If one party has complete or near complete control of one resource, and it works to distribute this resource to others in a fair and efficient manner, then it may be able to resist competition and maintain its advantage.  If said party tries to push its advantage too far it will find competition working AGAINST it, and ferociously so.

There are many places in the world that are life and death struggles due to monopolistic cartels, government graft, and collusion. Some are not to that point yet and if they are lucky enough to have a McDonalds, then they do have armed guards. I know of no currently operating free market system that doesn't ultimately resort to violence.

Nothing stops a society from creating a court system which pays for itself via court fees. That is how our own court system started. And punishment for break of contract (as in missing payment) does not have to be jail. Exclusion from trading with the specific merchant (the opponent) may be enough, or exclusion from trading with a free association of merchants. The unlucky non-receiver of payment could have an insurance against such loss through another free association, if deemed beneficial by the market.

This is completely false for the free market. A trade in the free market is always a win-win. It is the definition of the free market. If a trade is not win-win, it will not be completed.

Exactly. The exchange of value benefits both parties. Free trade is not a zero sum game no matter how much he wants that to fit into his belief system.

You sound like those creationists that try to disprove evolution by quoting the Second Law of Thermodynamics about Entropy. What they overlook is that these laws only occur in a closed Universe of experimental conditions. You think that a Free Market exists everywhere and exerts itself like natural law. That is not science. Your hypothesis is easily falsified under conditions of monopoly. You are simply Begging the Question.

Ah the old straw man. Nice!

You think that a free market can not exist. Fair enough. I happen to think that it can exist. The monopolies, in my world view, are always conducted by violence, directly or by proxy. You could read Henry Ford about monopolies, and what would happen if you tried to get a monopoly in the free market, by underselling your competition until they are gone, then raise prices. It is not possible. All monopolies are kept by violence, that is, by government.

Good companies can have a high market share, but only in a limited part of the market, and if they have, it is by merit.

To accept his basic premise you have to believe that all people are predatory and immoral at their base and the only thing that can protect us from ourselves is government intervention.

I agree. People are not generally like that. Not using violence is a natural thing, and almost everybody I know would never use violence. Thinking otherwise is part of the mind control that is going on. A society could easily exist nonviolently even if a certain amount of people in fact do have a tendency to violence. It doesn't have to be a collection of saints. And don't forget the balance - which is non violent but forceful self defense.

What we want are not different. I just realized long ago that you cannot get from point A to point B using an abstract reification such as money. It is a low tech invention. Sure Bitcoin creates an abstraction that mechanizes the functions of money that was once done by people, but it is still merely a practical technology. It doesn't do anything except transmit a very limited form of information. Electronic money has gone from the telegraph age to the telephone age. When smart contracts are possible and autonomous agents are able to transact indepently and intelligently, then we may see something that bridges what you believe and I believe. What you call the Free Market, I call Love, and money doesn't bring that.

I agree, it is about information. In theory, you could have a great ledger where every service or good is noted when it is added, and everything you consume is subtracted, for every person. But, in practise this would not work, because someone, who is not you, helpfully will set a value for each thing different from your values. We also need the market to signal to you as a consumer, and you as a producer, what to produce and what to consume, how much you want to produce, consume, save as money or invest. Money is perfect for that. It does not add real value, in fact it consumes a small amount of value, but essentially, it is there as a catalyzer, and you can take it out of the wealth equation when it has done its job.

Yeah see, finance isn't science. Aggregating resources are part of the scientific method, but how you aggregate them is not. Using terms like producer and consumer, marketing and investing, these are all technician terms that only useful within arbitrary sociological conditions. Science is useful in every sociological condition. Therefore your business terminology is meaningless to me. We cannot have a discussion because we cannot find common ground since I don't accept your paradigm where Bitcoin is concerned. From Bitcoin will emerge a whole new system of resource allocation. You may call it "free market" if you want, but the goal of acquiring unnecessary monies will one day be as quaint as sun worship.

I think I was rather clear. Money is only the catalyst, or moisture to the machinery. It has no real value. That means also that the goal of acquiring money does not exhaust resources in any way. It is a question of having the opportunity to consume later, leaving everyone else to consume or invest now. This has always been the case with money. Bitcoin is just a better form of money.

It is not science in the sense that it can be measured exactly and retested. That is for the econometrists, which are wrong. Some of them, you could call econosadists (war is prosperity). Economy is science in the sense that there are some axioms, then conclusions that logically build on those axioms.

Economics is a science that have axioms predicated on established social norms. I personally favor behavior sciences because they study animal behavior and extrapolate primate behavior to sociological scales. In the interest of furthering science, I prefer the disciplines with the greater latitudes. Economics is still going through the "new schools of thought" stage that was popular with psychology even through the 1990s. Now neuroscience is taking behavior sciences to higher levels. Behavior science has become empirical.

But really, it's much simpler than that. Treat others like they are your family and don't profiteer. Animals don't use money. Humans don't need money either. It's a choice. We need science and technology to promote progress. We can do it together by aggregating resources smartly. Unfortunately, most of us aren't smart enough to agree upon the best use of resources. We need tools that will assure us that our needs are met and that we have fulfilling lives. That takes a great deal of patience and care. Most humans are incapable of that. Perhaps intelligent machines will take care of our needs and allow us to provide adequate resources to build a Type 1 civilization one day.

So... instead of capitalism we just need almost all humans to be very patient and careful, extremely smart, and treat all strangers like family?  You have a problem with a theoretical consequence of capitalism based on questionable logic and supported by crony-capitalistic examples so you counter-propose a system of social order in which several of the axioms are blatantly false, two of them by your own admission!  Even without calling out many of the dubious claims in your argument, and paying no heed to the bias, you still quickly begin to consider the necessity of intelligent machines just to make your proposal tractable.

Fail.

Exactly.

But to elaborate to cbeast why  :)
Animals do use money. Male chimpanzee trade fruit with females, so they repay later with sex. Money is basically just information, which tells the traders the relative scarcity of the goods at THAT moment, and also tries to predict the future scarcity of the given resource. Also, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value, as long as value is subjective, and lacks any determinism, you MUST have a tool to communicate this information about demand-supply. Because people change their minds. Because resources gets depleted/new sources found/new technologies found etc. Or just shit happens none expected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

The economy is never and can not be in a state of equilibrium! And at the same time, it is always in it, because for that moment, the moment you pay - voluntary trade -, you just set a new equilibrium!

I hate this notion, you said
"Perhaps intelligent machines will take care of our needs and allow us to provide adequate resources to build a Type 1 civilization one day"
Every collectivist thinker starts from the failed Platonic logic of "philosopher kings" type of society, where someone or something will force us to do good, for our own sake.
Free will exists. Get over it. Be self reliant, spend energy, adapt, adopt, improve  :D Now, you see why people long for socialism, where everything gets handed to them, and they do not have to think and risk, and choose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNZQVyabiM

You two need to get a room. Giving food to a mate is not and economy. Do you get sex from your children when you give them food too?  Save the Econ 101 Wikipedia blabla. I am interested in objective empirical science. The point was that only technology solves our survival needs as we overpopulate. The intelligent machine conjecture is symbolic and for the most part we already use them to keep our electricity flowing, our tap water clean, and to run most of our machines. It's pretty simple. I'm sorry if you want to believe in magical "invisible market hands" and other such religious nonsense.

You have not answered the money=information argument. You just twisted it, and draw a straw man, "sex with children"....
I will not save 101 economics Wikipedia, since you obviously have not read them, if you were, you would not call the money transaction of an animal an economy. Economy needs production and trade, and innovation by conscious individuals. There is no production in animal kingdom.

Also, i do not BELIEVE in the "invisible hand", i KNOW it, the evidence is overwhelming. You can see it every day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ERbC7JyCfU this speech explains it very clearly, what the free market in REALITY does every single minute!

If you can not comprehend it, that is not my problem, reality will just leave you behind. It is just weird, to deny the existence of the free market on the Bitcoin forum.

Your confirmation bias is strong. This whole conversation gets twisted away from the problem of monopoly and violence, the weapons of choice in capitalistic societies. Economics is pure bullshit. It's the astrology of our era and economists are shamen. Go read your tea leaves and crystals and leave science to scientists.

Sorry, but this is false.

example:
A trade can also happen, because you think it's a win for you, but in reality it isn't. (e.g. a retiree that buys a useless insurance)
Or because you lack other options.
Your sentence is wishful thinking, but reality isn't like that.

There will always be cases of seller cheating the buyer by selling crappy products and services.

Or there will be cases called "externality" where factory owners and buyer of their products area happy with the price but do not have to pay the cost of polluting the area.

All trades on the free market should be a win-win for all parties involved. In order for this to happen there needs to be a sufficient amount of transparency and neither party is able to cheat. Unfortunately this is often not the case.

If you have a lamp for sale and you know your competitor across the street has the same item for less money, is it immoral not to tell your customers about the other?

Are you talking about fraud? That is not allowed in the free market. That is stealing your reality. You have the right to compensation for that.

No. You are not obliged to supply your customer with any or all information. What you tell, should be honest in my opinion, but normally a grown up should be expected to handle a certain amount of misinformation also.

There are fringe cases, so defining fraud is not an exact science. Here is what probably is fraud: You have a person that you know is not experienced, maybe minor, you tell him that everybody sells at a higher price, construct false shops in the neighbourhood which displays the wares at a higher price, make a call to a supposedly knowledgeable, supposedly third party, expert who really is your partner, who lies. Based on that the customer agrees to buy. These things can happen, if the stake is high.

If a patient goes to a doctor with extreme pain and a doctor tells him he needs immediate surgery when it's only gas, is that immoral?

Same situation easily arise from other type of system.

Communism killed more people than capitalism, is that moral?

Sure. In the free market, actors must act ethical to aquire trust. It doesn't solve everything, but the current system does not either, it is probably worse.

So it's ethical to overcharge for a lamp, but unethical to overcharge for healthcare?

What is your definition of over charging?

Buyers don't buy based on price alone. You need to take trust, after sales service into account.

Let me rephrase the question. Is it ethical to overcharge for a lamp, but unethical to overcharge for healthcare?

The term "overcharging" cannot be easily defined. It is fair to allow people to make a profit off of the time and capital they invest in their business.

The only true way to "overcharge" someone for something is to charge a price that is above the market rate, but if you charged this much then you would not be able to sell your product/service.

What planet are you from that doesn't have salesmen?

No. Why do you differentiate between types of products and services? In the free market, you offer something for a price, and there is no unethical price. In the non-free market, the question doesn't even need an answer, because it is not you the customer, or you the merchant, or you the doctor who decides. It is the one dominating over you, based on his physical power to harm you.

So how will you know if you are really about to die or the doctor just needs to make a yacht payment?

How do you know under obamacare?

Exactly. Obamacare is a free market healthcare system of private insurers. They own a lot of yachts.

I'm totally against you, capitalism is the root of all evil, and has nothing to do with morals.

I did see that you ignored socialism and communism and yes I'm a Communist.

When you are giving the chance for people to be seen how much they COST MORE, then don't talk about morals.

A salesman will try to get you to buy their specific product, or a product that you may not otherwise purchase. They would still need to charge a "fair" price, otherwise even if you are "sold" on the product you would not buy from the salesmen, and/or would buy the product from another channel

Buyer also bear responsibility for buying over price cap for not doing their own homework.

Same reasoning for choosing the right doctor to trust and the right care provider.

With internet, people can find out which doctor is scum bag very fast if they do their homework.

The average joe doesn't have the financial resources to vet a medical institution and their billing/insurance practices and policies. They often don't have time for a second opinion if they are told their appendix burst. They are at the mercy of a predatorial medical/industrial complex. You average doctor also cannot compete with those medical institutions to fight the system if they ever hope to repay their enormous student debt. Doctors get sucked into the system. Nowadays a lot of good doctors are quitting their beloved profession because of the immoral business practice forced upon them by hospital administrators and insurance companies.

Oh, that's just adorable naivete.

So it makes sense to subcontract that function to those who neurish the predatorial medical/industrial complex?

That's what the term means. It's an unavoidable monopoly. You can always go to a socialist country instead if you can get a passport in time before you die.

Monopoly is not unavoidable. If this is the case, counties and dynasty will last forever rather than fade into history and being replaced by a better managed country/dynasty.

Very true. Many monopolies only last a few normal human lifetimes. I'm glad your immortality is working out for you.

Monopolies, like empires will fall when they get too cocky

Technology advancement speed up the process of downfall.

Technology progress creates monopolies. Look at mining pools. The superior efficiencies give the most payout, that's how monopolies are born. Oil companies may change names, but the same families are running the companies for many decades. Companies like TI and IBM own so many patents, they monopolize technology development. Revolution speeds up the process of downfall, but we're a long way from that.

Monopoly is fine if the company is providing an efficient and superior service.

An enforced monopoly would be a problem. With an open market the monopolistic entity would have to provide a great product at a fair price to avoid other companies entering the market and successfully competing. The problem we have now is that our governments support large oligopolies.

And the governments supporting the oligopolies are slowly being price out of the market.

If you have a monopoly then you do not have incentives to provide "superior service" as you do not have any real competition

Incentive is hold on to what you have and keep other from starting a business to compete with you.

Monopolies have enough control of the market so other businesses cannot easily compete.

Capitalism itself has no moral standpoint...

Yeah, this.  How can freedom to compete in an open market, where you're not allowed to hurt people and steal people's stuff, be immoral?

Well the main problem lies with the fact that when there is an actual monopoly the incentive to continue to provide an efficient and superior service fades away. You can't exactly have superior service if there's no longer anything else to compare it to. And since there is no longer an alternative efficiency becomes irrelevant for the monopoly.

When there's no longer an efficient monopoly, more efficient players should enter the market.

The problem comes when the monopoly takes steps to block or create barriers to entry that make entering the market difficult.

capitalism is the only moral system of government

Then it wouldn't be a free market would it. And who is able to make barriers of entry other than regulating governments.

if people would understand one thing is that inequality comes from the thing that pretends to alter it, government and regulation.

Government has a place in Capitalism, its just not the economy. Its focus should only be on governing the law of the land. Capitalism needs land rights etc, its not anarchy.

If that is the case, that's mean they are doing something right.

this is exactly why most governments have made monopolies illegal and will force them to break up when they come close to having a monopoly

The moral of capitalism is that of human rights including right to one self and ones things, non-initiation of force in violence to those rights, the rule of law, cooperation in the form of voluntary exchange.

I don't think governments are the only one who could make barriers to entry. Sometimes something as simple as controlling the supply of a commodity is enough to create an insurmountable barrier to entry.

A market with no regulation is more likely to cease to be a free market in the long run than one that is regulated properly with the intention of keeping it free.

I would disagree. There are many markets that have little regulation that have very low barriers to entry.

One example would be a lemonade stand, one would need to invest in very little in order to set one up. There are plenty of places where one could be set up. Lemons can be easily grown in the owner's yard for their lemonade paper cups and pitchers have a large enough market for other then lemonade stands that it would be difficult to control this market. This is a very basic example.

The point is that the lower overall investment needed in order to start a business in an industry the harder it will be to have a monopoly over the market.

Is this satire? I don't see how someone is any of this horrible things you say simply because they don't agree with the current tax system.

The biggest barrier to any market is the initial investment necessary to start a business. The more investment required prior to starting a business the harder it will be for newcomers to enter the market.

That is right on. There is no reason to force people to give up what they have worked for to give it to people who are less skilled.

Right. And the immorality of the redistribution state is that the voters, not themselfves willing to take others' value by force in violation of human rights, contract the leaders to contract the taxmen who contract the police to take it. Not understanding how the free market economy works to the best for all, they blind themselves to the reality what is going on, and consider themselves virtous in taking from the rich to give to the poor. Which, after corruption and cronyism is included in the formula, in fact result in the state taking from the poor and give to the rich, destroying the productive capacity of the population in the course.

Inconscient moral self sanctimoniousness - I point my finger.

There are simply a lot of voters and liberal politicians that think with a robinhood mentality.

Apparently capitalism inevitable stage of development of society. All indications are that more will be either socialism as in many European countries, or something very close in meaning.

Can anyone please share some links of existing theoretical systems that could possibly compete with capitalism?

Compete in what way? Slavery, socialism, communism and capitalism have been tried and work well for the ruling class.

Cough Development Politics
Tell that to all of Latin America who were raped pretty badly by the industrialization process
A system built on the backs of others through monopolization and trade restrictions :)
That is why they are moving to socialism systems the same with the Chinese who went from Commy --> Socialist because they were subjected to 100 years of shame and exploitation by the Colonial powers, and had to fight very hard to get out of that dependency. (opium wars etc)

Also known as the Global South
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North%E2%80%93South_divide

In economic terms, the North—with one quarter of the world population—controls four fifths of the world income. 90% of the manufacturing industries are owned by and located in the North. Inversely, the South—with three quarters of the world populations—has access to one fifth of the world income. It serves as a source for raw material as the North, “eager to acquire their own independent resource bases[,]…subjected large portions of the global South to direct colonial rule” between 1850 and 1914. As nations become economically developed, they may become part of the "North", regardless of geographical location, while any other nations which do not qualify for "developed" status are in effect deemed to be part of the "South".