Capitalism and immorality

[Ron~Popeil]

Capitalism is neither inherently good or evil. Hopefully one day we can actually try out free market capitalism somewhere.

[Trading]

I already bashed on the so-called immorality of taxation, even when we can't perceive a direct service by the State: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=617895.msg6931130#msg6931130

I also have issues with calling capitalism the only moral system of government.

Because it's an economic system, not a political one, and has only some consequences on the political system, mainly protection of property and some economic freedoms. Says nothing about political freedom, elections, division of powers, etc.

Because it can have real immoral consequences, especially if unregulated. Actually, completely unregulated, ends up killing it self, because of monopolies.

[Ron~Popeil]

I already bashed on the so-called immorality of taxation, even when we can't perceive a direct service by the State: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=617895.msg6931130#msg6931130

I also have issues with calling capitalism the only moral system of government.

Because it's an economic system, not a political one, and has only some consequences on the political system, mainly protection of property and some economic freedoms. Says nothing about political freedom, elections, division of powers, etc.

Because it can have real immoral consequences, especially if unregulated. Actually, completely unregulated, ends up killing it self, because of monopolies.

The current system is stacked to give the state nearly unlimited power. The crony capitalism you cite above are symptoms of the overall disease. Transparency in government solves 95% of the problems with the current crony capitalism system.

[Trading]

The enlargement of the current social functions of the state is a consequence of the enlargement of voting: everyone can vote, including the poor; the poor want social protection, therefore, high taxes.

In reality, the State doesn't have that much power, but the state serves the majority of the people, that decides who wins elections.

Anyone wanting to attack the social functions of the state must attack universal democracy. Therefore, this kind of discourse ends in fascism very easily

[teukon]

To the phony libertarians and others that desire to claim that taxes are evil, or whatever. Get lost. Go in the jungle, stay there. Or pay your fair, legal share, like everyone else. Otherwise your simply a parasitical maggot, a criminal, a low life evil scum bag, much like banksters.

I've not seen someone put the pro-taxation argument quite so eloquently before!  Have you written any books on the subject you could direct me to?

[Slingshot]

 So the OP states whatever private parties/corporations do such as bailing out others is okay, just not to dare consider bailing out governments.

 Interesting.

 So TARP Bill was wrong? But it was the private sector begging for tarp was it not? Even CNBC 'money honey' begged everyone to sell, sell, sell, on live TV 'so they will pass TARP'

 But it's okay to bailout GM and even a private equity firm called Chrysler Corp? really? NO? O, because it's government bailouts. Hey, great, we agree on something else OP.


 But the secret multi-trillion dollar bailouts by the privately held FED corp. were perfectly fine with the OP?

Even though us 'little people' are forced to pay for the ruling wealthy elites backdoor bailouts, much less others getting bailouts even though they too ended up being wiped out along with the banks, wall street and the insurance companies and pension funds? (everyone was wiped out...in 2008-2009, then bailed out, essentially).

 And the FED paying zero taxes is perfectly fine?

 And the FED forcing all of us to pay usurious rates of interest on every last dollar in circulation into perpetuity is perfectly fine?

 And so it must be perfectly fine with the OP that we're all slaves to the likes of those that believe just like himself, of course him included?


 So the FED, whom lost, and all the ruling wealthy elite, whom lost, all lost everything, as in insolvent, bankruptcy, LOSERS...they can always be saved, but everyone else must play naked capitalism? Is that correct OP? IF so your a fascist or communist.


 Your story falls apart OP.

 Relentless greed, insider trading, frauds, etc. are not the solutions, their the problems.


 Limited governments sounds great, but someone still has to pay for it.

 END THE FED and suddenly no, we wont have to pay any more income taxes. But those like the OP seem to think the Fed is wonderful?


 Don't like it? Then try and change it.

 Sure; I want half my lifetime income (the money) I have paid in taxes all my life to support bums like you OP, for your entire lives. Damn straight.

 Sure; I am sick of supporting parasites and many other bums like you OP.

 And very soon those like myself will be doing tap dances on your head and forcing those just like the OP to pay up and be locked away.

 We're not going to allow you in anymore. Your going to be forced to carry your own water. O the horror...


 As for capitalism and solutions: Yes, built on the backs of labor and limited supplies of resources.
Just don't try and explain that to those like the OP, they can't comprehend reality. Their apparently sociopaths and psychopaths.


 What next OP? exterminate the handicapped, the disabled, the mentally ill, and other groups, maybe even races or nations that refuse to cower to your demands?

 Why not just exterminate the criminals and crimminally insane like yourself OP? Wouldn't that make much more sense? (just kidding, sorta).


 All while what? You (OP) apparently worship the criminal banking cartel that now holds almost the entire world in financial debt bondage?


 Go back to the drawing board OP. We will rip you apart here, your in way over your head.


 BTW: Review Norway. It has a viable solution to make everyone that is half reasonable happy, but it too is based on limited resources unless we get off this rock called earth. Yet it is the sole guiding light so far. Model society off Norway and that's a darn fine start for everyone. But then the OP has no clue about any of that (real, decent, honorable, Capitalism, in a realistically true social democracy).


 Fascists and Communists all hate me, I am their worst nightmare. Just like the Fascist Banksters.


END THE FED.

End all debt based fiat.

Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.


The OP sucks.

nuff said.

[stryker0695]

You raise a very good, established point from the world of economics. Realize, however, that economics is a soft science unlike chemistry or physics. The theories of economics can't be tested, only observed.

[Slingshot]

You raise a very good, established point from the world of economics. Realize, however, that economics is a soft science unlike chemistry or physics. The theories of economics can't be tested, only observed.

 All economic theory to date is horribly flawed. The economic experts certainly know it. But then they also know who they work for too, and whom not to dare cross.

 Western Economic theory, Austrian Economic theory, both horribly flawed.

 Yet fools fall for one, or the other.

 Just like they were suckered into voodoo economics too.

 And for the very same reasons (self serving greed).


 Enough forcing future generations to pay for the past and present generations.

 END THE FED.

[okthen]

Capitalism is only truly possible if the means of exchange is not controlled by an entity.
Hence... bitcoin is capitalism's perfect tool  

Capitalism isn't evil. People are evil.

[Slingshot]

Capitalism is only truly possible if the means of exchange is not controlled by an entity.
Hence... bitcoin is capitalism's perfect tool  

Capitalism isn't evil. People are evil.

+1

Best regards.

[neofelis]

Capitalism protects me from being abused or forced to work for someone else.

Sorry to break this news to you, but it doesn't. Unless you think dieing by starvation is acceptable as alternative.
There are others forces than those by persons.

So you can talk about "non aggression principle" all day, the fact is you are completely ignoring those other forces even when they can be just as cruel as the "aggression" you hate so much.

It doesn't matter how noble the intent, it doesn't matter whether you are helping childhood cancer or keeping one person from starvation, to use force to take the product of somebody else's labor is to commit an immoral act.  The moment you violate this simple primary, you open up the proverbial slippery slope to more and more regulation, taxation, enslavement.  There is always some sad story that has to be alleviated.  There is always somebody making gobs of money "they don't really need" to use the force of government to steal from.  The world has a huge entitlement class.  There are billions in taxation stolen from productive citizens worldwide to "provide relief" for the poor.  Has it helped?  I say no. Even if it does help few, it's not worth it.  Immoral = immoral.  No matter how big or how small. A million tiny wrongs do not make a right.

[neofelis]

So the OP states whatever private parties/corporations do such as bailing out others is okay, just not to dare consider bailing out governments.

 Interesting.

 So TARP Bill was wrong? But it was the private sector begging for tarp was it not? Even CNBC 'money honey' begged everyone to sell, sell, sell, on live TV 'so they will pass TARP'

 But it's okay to bailout GM and even a private equity firm called Chrysler Corp? really? NO? O, because it's government bailouts. Hey, great, we agree on something else OP.


 But the secret multi-trillion dollar bailouts by the privately held FED corp. were perfectly fine with the OP?

Even though us 'little people' are forced to pay for the ruling wealthy elites backdoor bailouts, much less others getting bailouts even though they too ended up being wiped out along with the banks, wall street and the insurance companies and pension funds? (everyone was wiped out...in 2008-2009, then bailed out, essentially).

 And the FED paying zero taxes is perfectly fine?

 And the FED forcing all of us to pay usurious rates of interest on every last dollar in circulation into perpetuity is perfectly fine?

 And so it must be perfectly fine with the OP that we're all slaves to the likes of those that believe just like himself, of course him included?


 So the FED, whom lost, and all the ruling wealthy elite, whom lost, all lost everything, as in insolvent, bankruptcy, LOSERS...they can always be saved, but everyone else must play naked capitalism? Is that correct OP? IF so your a fascist or communist.


 Your story falls apart OP.

 Relentless greed, insider trading, frauds, etc. are not the solutions, their the problems.


 Limited governments sounds great, but someone still has to pay for it.

 END THE FED and suddenly no, we wont have to pay any more income taxes. But those like the OP seem to think the Fed is wonderful?


 Don't like it? Then try and change it.

 Sure; I want half my lifetime income (the money) I have paid in taxes all my life to support bums like you OP, for your entire lives. Damn straight.

 Sure; I am sick of supporting parasites and many other bums like you OP.

 And very soon those like myself will be doing tap dances on your head and forcing those just like the OP to pay up and be locked away.

 We're not going to allow you in anymore. Your going to be forced to carry your own water. O the horror...


 As for capitalism and solutions: Yes, built on the backs of labor and limited supplies of resources.
Just don't try and explain that to those like the OP, they can't comprehend reality. Their apparently sociopaths and psychopaths.


 What next OP? exterminate the handicapped, the disabled, the mentally ill, and other groups, maybe even races or nations that refuse to cower to your demands?

 Why not just exterminate the criminals and crimminally insane like yourself OP? Wouldn't that make much more sense? (just kidding, sorta).


 All while what? You (OP) apparently worship the criminal banking cartel that now holds almost the entire world in financial debt bondage?


 Go back to the drawing board OP. We will rip you apart here, your in way over your head.


 BTW: Review Norway. It has a viable solution to make everyone that is half reasonable happy, but it too is based on limited resources unless we get off this rock called earth. Yet it is the sole guiding light so far. Model society off Norway and that's a darn fine start for everyone. But then the OP has no clue about any of that (real, decent, honorable, Capitalism, in a realistically true social democracy).


 Fascists and Communists all hate me, I am their worst nightmare. Just like the Fascist Banksters.


END THE FED.

End all debt based fiat.

Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.


The OP sucks.

nuff said.

Where, in any of my posts, did I say all that?  Are you reading the correct thread? Go back and read them again.  Geesh.

[bitswipe]

Immortality any day.
Immortality basically allows you to do anything you like and that's the end of it...money doesn't stop someone from gunning you down now does it?

[cbeast]

Robots. I win. 

[bitswipe]

Robots. I win. 

Even robots can be destroyed! Nothing (99%) is indestructible. Nothing human anyway.

[CoinDiver]

Anarchy > Capitalism. Anarchy means without hierarchy. It means no man belongs to any other, to any degree without consent. It also means you economically illiterate communists and socialists can all band together in shared misery... while us capitalists will associate and contract without whomever we choose as well.

[okthen]

Anarchy > Capitalism. Anarchy means without hierarchy. It means no man belongs to any other, to any degree without consent. It also means you economically illiterate communists and socialists can all band together in shared misery... while us capitalists will associate and contract without whomever we choose as well.

But who will keep people from killing each other?
Some kind of basic order is necessary. The right to life has to be enforced by someone.

[neofelis]

Anarchy > Capitalism. Anarchy means without hierarchy. It means no man belongs to any other, to any degree without consent. It also means you economically illiterate communists and socialists can all band together in shared misery... while us capitalists will associate and contract without whomever we choose as well.

But who will keep people from killing each other?
Some kind of basic order is necessary. The right to life has to be enforced by someone.

I agree. Government is necessary to protect the rights of its citizens. And nothing more.

[CoinDiver]

Anarchy > Capitalism. Anarchy means without hierarchy. It means no man belongs to any other, to any degree without consent. It also means you economically illiterate communists and socialists can all band together in shared misery... while us capitalists will associate and contract without whomever we choose as well.

But who will keep people from killing each other?
Some kind of basic order is necessary. The right to life has to be enforced by someone.

People who don't want to get killed stop themselves from killing other people. In preventing a "bad guy" from killing a "good guy", the government also stops good guys from killing bad guys right back. You want to know how a stateless court would handle the rape of my daughter? They wouldn't. I'd have killed the fucker first.

[cbeast]

People who don't want to get killed stop themselves from killing other people.

Says the wolf to the sheep.