Bitcoin Forum

Today a legal complaint against bitcoinica.com was filed with the Spanish authorities, given their legal status is unknown and any requests for providing information are left unanswered.
I strongly suggest anyone, having issues with bitcoin being associated with money laundering and unregulated speculation, doing the same thing in their jurisdiction. English translation is not available at this moment but will be faxed when ready to bitcoinica.com by the competent authorities.

https://i.imgur.com/UxXBQ.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/UxXBQ.jpg)

this is going to hurt mtgox...

Wait, you are suggesting people attack bitcoinica?

Why? What have they done? As far as I know, they've been behaving honestly. I've seem some issues about lack of reserves, but nothing fraudulent.

Yeah. It is this attitude that got TH shutdown.

Spain has good relations with Chile police I would think.

FYI this is NOT helping anyone but your greedy self.

How much are they paying you to rat bitcoinica out ?

what do you mean ?

mtgox codes are being traded at bitcoinica..

thanks for telling me that, i will make sure the police knows about it

not sure if you are serious...

i mean if they will call me to request for more information

Dude, I lost all respect I had for you...

And good luck for your money transmitting business that you so eagerly promote on this forum.
I'll make sure to stay away from it, and I'm sure many others will do the same.

Bitcoinica is like a 3rd of MtGox's volume? I heard that somewhere, don't know if it is correct. But if it is, yes it will hurt MtGox's volume.

LOL. I just want to know how much you get paid for this :D

Seems that now members of our own community are the so-called "establishment".

Good one paraipan !

meelba will be joining in on the fun soon ;)

lol, it's a dununcia - anyone can file these & they go nowhere 99% of the time, it means I'm upset about something I saw on the Internets so it must be banned - actually it says I wish to bring this matter to the attention of the authorities, it says there's some site on the web that's only in English not Spanish & though I've not lost any money on it I think that others may do so in the future so please check it out, Spain isn't the Generalísimo of the Internets or for that matter have any jurisdiction in Singapore, Delaware, or 99% of the rest of the world since they lost their colonial rapespoils, it's a total red herring ego trip FUD

WTF ? 

I hate bitcoinica at times too..

But you posting this is just pure stupidity..  because you make no point in describing your issues with them to us ?

Just a spanish document that could be anything..  you could be filing a report about a lost dog for all I know or care..

How about some actual details ?
I would love to further laugh about the idea you wish to promote ?

Are you a mtgox peon ?

@teflone and @senbonzakura: I hope you guys are ready for the complaint paraipan will also make about you operating an illegal "bank"...

...and it's islamic... the spanish SWAT will raid you both, you terrorists, just so you learn not the attack their subway system!  ::)

@teflone: I could translate it to you but I'll just tell you the general guidelines.
1- He discovered a website in the internet who takes money from people without asking for identification documents.
2- That the only information they have in the webiste is about how to send money to them.
3- That in a later date they started accepting deposits from people and they play with them on the market and promise high returns on the investment.
4- That he has asked more information about the company in public forums, I suspect bitcointalk.org, and have got no answers from the company, thus believing they are a sweat shop.
5- He hasn't personally lost any money or patrimony with said company but it's his desire that the police investigates them

tl;dr: He's a jealous snitch.

it's not even close to an accurate description of what Bitcoinica does or claims to do, the denuncia states that they are soliciting investments for a fund that which will be invested in highly speculative way that they will then use to pay elevated rates of interest, Bitcoinica does not do this - it's not a fund, an investment, doesn't promise high returns or any at all for that matter - the person who wrote this is either a moron or just doesn't have a clue, maybe both

I could go in to the local cop shop & fill out a similar form, though in most jurisdictions I would actually have had to have lost some money first, the result would be identical anywhere in the world - yep, yet another one to file in the looney bin

edit: I suppose with the swaps there is some offer now of a return for funds deposited which I guess is what this is based upon so that may be of relevance, also the complaint says that no ID information is gathered from those participating, looks like an oblique attack on the whole Bitcoin concept imo, but aimed at Bitcoinica rather than Bitcoins itself

I don't "hate" bitcoinica at all and don't work for any interested party around bitcoin project, only for myself. I will withdraw my complaint if bitcoinica publicly proves that it had all the required documents and complies with AML regulations.

Complaint was filed with Spanish National Police and passed onto their Internet investigation division. It's mostly a legal request to investigate on the matter, given there is a high risk of fraud. I'm not allowed to translate the document myself and a legal translator costs money that I better spend on my needs. Additional domain registrant info was provided too.

Lame move, dude. You are hurting the bitcoin community.

Your motive for doing this?

To promote the link in his signature  ::)

Perhaps there should be a "snitch" tag to go along with the "scammer" tag on these boards...

if you read the posts i think it's easy to see

Yeah. There is a new method of taking out BTC competition.

If you don't like them / envy them SEND THE LAW for them :D

This is the face
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=5966;type=avatar
of a huge fucking hypocrite


You are sending cash through the mail to anonymous people, and you have a problem with Bitcoinica?  How much did you get zhoutonged for? Why are you so bitter?  What is this really about?

Which Spanish police dept did you contact?  I'd like to let them know about your little venture.

there's a million scam sites around the world & even when people have been scammed local police in other jurisdictions care little & can do even less about it, here's this dude thinks he spots a dodgy website where actually to date no-one has been ripped off & files a local bit of bureaucratic toilet paper about it, the site isn't in Spain - it's not even in Spanish, the OP is a joke & more interest would actually be paid to it by the authorities here if it was his lost dog, ego tripping shit stirrer or hidden agenda - it's all a gnat's fart in the tramentana

That's how the big boys play   :P

And to make it even more funny... he's putting the cops after a 17 y.o. because of his success!

Some notable text from the scanned letter follow:




Paraipan: I think you've got some entitlement issues. Further, you've just thrown away your money transfer business, and all good will that you might have experienced going forward.

I hope it was worth the excommunication you're about to receive.

Why did you just throw away a positive > 1200 post rep?  Strange and sad.  Goodbye.

If you are going to backstab the community to get rid of competitors, why make it public in this forum..? This is a really lame move in every sense..

Because he knows that denounce will die in some court clerks' desk drawer and he's using it just to agitate the masses.

1 - One can thik it is to promote his own business while throwing competition(?) out, and if it was I see that as a plain stupid move and I honnestly want to think this wasn't the reason.

2. Or... it was just to try to crate a deeper mess with yet more bad news about bitcoin surfacing and hoping that bitcoins deavaluate, even if just for a couple days to try and grab some cheap ones on the market.

Either way, stupid move...

watching

@psy i would suggest you tone your voice down a bit, i didn't complain against you or something. Ask a legal advisor and he would tell you bitcoinica is not the way to do business, i don't want a mybitcoin 2.0 associated with the project. Like some others said, it goes to ask bitcoinica for it's legal status and AML compliance, you can't go without that in our world today. I asked politely and they ignored, so i'm trying again.

edit: i will retract my complaint if documentation is provided by bitcoinica

Bitcoinica doesn't owe you documentation, and if I were zhoutong, I would -in no polite manner- tell you to fuck yourself with a rusty metal pipe. You are just some dick, rattling your cage for god only knows why.

Just think what HSA in the US would do about someone running a cash-by-mail service. These days, I am pretty sure that gets you put in a naked human pyramid in Guantanemo with some fugly girl pointing at your junk.

you are related in anyway with bitcoinica ?

A little Google searching indicates Paraipan is from Romania.  Did you move to Spain, or just complain there?

Nope. Never even been on the site. But I do think zhoutong is a brilliant and hilarious businessman, and doesn't deserve a sniveling little twat like you trying to snipe him from the bushes.

yes, my nickname is a very common last name in Romania, if you are so kind to post on topic i would be grateful.

Smart, send a legal complaint to the cops against a fairly well respected business, then brag about it, on a libertarian forum that patronizes said business. You didn't stop at any point along this line and think it might be a bad idea? If you're gonna talk trash/spread fud about others businesses publicly, you should be prepared to expect the same.

Oh look, it started already. Good luck with that.

https://i.imgur.com/4Ww8i.gif

I can't see how you attacking me can resolve the fact no one knows nothing about bitcoinica.com

No one knows anything about you also, you dickhead.

You were even so kind as to remove every piece that could identify you from that documnet you posted.

Explain that.

great, having that coming from a "neutral" moderator says lots of things, on topic too

No, plenty of people are well informed about bitcoinica, their algorithms, and their business practices. You just apparently aren't smart enough to seek out that information and decided to call the police for some reason?

If I was a cop and you handed me such a waste of fucking time, I would be liable to bust your head open with a stick. There are rapists and catholic priestschild molesters to deal with.

Want to know more about this paraipan fellow?


Ebay - http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=bogdan.seme
OpenID - http://paraipan.myopenid.com/
BitcoinOTC - http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=paraipan
Github - https://github.com/paraipan

Claims to live in spain.  Many instances of username used in Romania (may be someone else with last name 'paraipan')

Ebay profile indicates he speaks only english and spanish.

You might want to add that information to the page about him here: http://bitcoin-shitlist.com/2012/02/16/paraipan/

And ofcourse he can defend himself, like anybody else that was accused of something can defend themselves, and have the complaint withdrawn and be labeled as Innocent.

Disclaimer: To someone who may be thinking I'm out of my mind by promoting my business while trying to put some other guy(paraipan) out of business while he tries to put some other guy(zhoutong) out of business, well, I'm just studying a theory and I'll explain that later on the Bitcoin Shitlist blog. ;)

paraipan needs a scumbag steve meme

You are asking bitcoinica for AML documentation when they are not located in the USA or Spain?  Can you point out the law bitcoinica is violating in it's home country?

Don't get me wrong, I think bitcoinica is a rip off.  The huge spreads combined with the liquidation policy (not that they do it, but how easily they do it) make it a great way to loose BTC.  I also feel the interest component has the potential to allow (or encourage) the owner to allow the deposits to grow so big that they are incentive for going rouge with them.  

i would point laws if i would know some, money laundering to start with and promise of returns for customer deposits

https://www.bitcoinica.com/pages/interest

I think bitcoinica should respond to this post offically .

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61017.msg753478#msg753478

Paraipan's signature used to contain a link to Bitcoin Magazine.  I asked on that thread whether he was involved, and now the link in his signature is gone.

There has been no official comment from Matthew N Wright.

Paraipan, are you involved in the production of the Bitcoin Magazine?

EDIT:  He addressed this in other thread.  He was talking to them about doing translation work, and that is it.

I saved the picture in the OP since he's getting rid of things now.

https://i.imgur.com/Szquz.jpg

i already answered you   :-\

edit: @BadBear i will not remove content of my posts and appreciate you not copying it or removing any of it

So why are you putting forward a LEGAL complaint when you don't know of any laws broken?   

This is odd.   Not removing, I fully understand. Why do you request that we not make backups?  Do you not stand behind your actions and words in this thread?

You guyz...I'm super serial...don't copy the image I posted to the public domain with no copyright documentation on this google indexed forum.

Man, you whine a lot.

i suppose you know it's not our job to determine the legality of an online service, we just use them without asking too many questions. I would really like to know, in what country is bitcoinica registered ?

@RaggedMonk i stand behind my actions, yes

Anyone who does business with this guy would be highly unethical. He has used the law (which exists to protect customers) as a commercial weapon. He has a conflict of interest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest). It is when companies (and large corporations) use the law in this manner that a society becomes corrupt. This guy is a promoter of corruption.

http://bitcoinmedia.com/bitcoinica-legal-complaint/

i don't provide any kind of platform similar to bitcoinica, i don't understand your point

For those with short memories, there is a very nice thread tracking down Mt.Gox and if they were registered.  Eventually (much later) it was confirmed.

Just because paraipan doesn't know something, apparently the rest of the world doesn't know either.  Therefore, every business in the world should respond to him with their AML policy.  If he has a fax number, I'll send mine.

Dear Bitcointalk.org users,

We at Bitcoin Magazine were unaware of the actions or intentions of the user paraipan and subsequently asked him to remove the reference to Bitcoin Magazine in his signature. He volunteered to work for the magazine as a Spanish translator but has not had any direct involvement with the development of the magazine to date. His actions do not in any way reflect the opinions of Bitcoin Magazine. His future at the magazine is pending further discussion.

Sincerely,

Bitcoin Magazine

Three days ago, zhou said this.

As paraipan runs a business with competing interests, his legal filing is of dubious legality. This is termed conflict of interest. His role as a competing business has the potential to possibly corrupt his other acts in this area. Legally he has no role in this area. He is not a customer.

http://bitcoinmedia.com/bitcoinica-legal-complaint/

It does not matter. You're in a legally grey area by using the law in this way. And in a highly unethical way too.

I don't think there is a conflict of interests at all, it's only a warning to the competent authorities of the potential unregulated or illegal activities until the opposite is proven

If I was in spain, I would probably accuse you of being a pedophile as a warning to the competent authorities of the potential sexual abuse until the opposite is proven.

We have to prove we are innocent? 

When asked about what laws you thought they broke you said you did not know.  So what are you accusing them LEGALLY with that complaint you put in writing? 

Point being that you are a squealing rat-fink bastard for dime-ing out someone who didn't harm you or society in any manner and whom you aren't certain even committed the offenses you claim.

And you posted it all here, perhaps thinking that the community would applaud you for it, exacerbating the idiocy of your actions.

again, i'm not accusing anyone with nothing only putting it into the authorities attention, i recommend you do the same and let them investigate

@RandyFolds please keep those comments for yourself if you don't have anything of value to add, are you affiliated in any way with bitcoinica ?

Third ask.  What are you accusing them of in that complaint?  The title of YOUR thread is "Legal complaint against bitcoinica.com"

I was just explaining why you are repeatedly being called a rat. You said you didn't get the point. I already stated that I have never even visited the site, and probably never will.

NOTHING productive will come of this thread...it is already four pages of people calling you out for your weasely actions, with one guy agreeing with you.

with regretting to inform, complaint of official designation to "Send cash with bitcoins !" non regulated and violation.


https://i.imgur.com/KYHqa.jpg

Assuming this is simply a request to authorities to investigate, here's what I have to say:

To Paraipan:  Ok.  Looks fine to me.

To everyone else:  SO FUCKING WHAT?

of nothing, the exact translation of "denuncia" in Spanish language is "complaint" in English, you can understand it as the complainant gives a heads up of suspicious activity to authorities

You are accusing them of nothing?  Last time I did that... I didn't need to do anything.... at all.  (talk, visit the cops, post on a board about it etc)

What suspicious activity do you cite? 

@Littleshop hate repeating it all over this thread

quoting psy:

Man.. guys like you are the reason why I hate the law.

If you don't like a service don't do business with it.

To OP

Go after an ACTUAL proven scammer you idiot..

Your lack of brains is amazing...

Such slime...

lol, how can you prove a scammer before he scams ?

My comment about this in another thread:





Laws were originally created to help keep order and minimize difficulties living in a society. International laws are very complex and require months if not years of litigation to come to decisions on. The law that Bitcoinica operates under is not an international one and according to my own research, anyone other a Singaporean citizen themselves can use Bitcoinica legally regardless of it's registration. Bottom line, regardless of how absurd it may seem in relation to your own country's laws and practices, what is illegal in your country isn't necessarily illegal in another. Parapain didn't know this and he hasn't caused any trouble at all.

Here's how it's going to play out:

1) Police will push the inquiry to the detectives unit
2) They will find out where Bitcoinica operates out of
3) They will find out that the bank accounts are in Singapore
4) They will close the inquiry.

Nothing lost, only a few members getting an education. If one single member of the forum filing a police report locally could stop bitcoinica, then that wouldn't be a company worth anything now would it? I hope you guys don't seriously think it'd be that easy...

Spain != Singapore



It's just lack of information. To parapain, this was a potential scammer. He couldn't have known without knowing, and if he knew he wouldn't have needed to know. You dig? Now he knows.

 I dig....He's a jive turkey...

^matthew's post, and the fact that bitcoinica gets external funds from mtgox codes to hedge or pay interest.

Glad you stepped by Matthew and do some constructive posting, i will patiently wait for an official response from bitcoinica wherever they please most. Until then I will be in my "cave" trying not to disturb more these forums and hope the police will keep me updated.

@teflone i've been called things all my life, i got used to it

Parapain opened up a channel to the police in regards to a bitcoin business. If anything, he has an opportunity to learn directly from working officials on bitcoin laws in Spain. When everyone's done being angry and realizes that there is nothing the Spanish inquisition can do about a business in Singapore, why not ask Parapain to relay some questions to the police (since they're already looking into it)?

Use opportunities people. The door's already open, let's just walk through it.

you made great post and now you ruin it, bitcoinica operates with mtgox codes and their codes too without requiring any identification. I have access to it so the service can be used from Spain, thus under Spanish jurisdiction too. Dollars are used to make the deposits and pay interest.

Sounds like you have another police report to file then-- for MtGox! ^_^

actually i don't, their info is publicly available and they comply with AML regulations, had my doubts using them at first

-1 to this thread.
Makes me queasy. Makes me uneasy.
Reminds me of when I was a little boy, and a barefoot girl stole one of my shoes in gym.
She told the teacher I stole her other shoe, and got me banned from recess for a few days.

This looks like a case of envy and tattling. Disheartening.

So every internet web site can be accessed from every country in the world.  So every site on the internet is under every jurisdiction in the world?  

yep!  and its every persons responsibility to file police reports about every website that could, in your opinion, be in violation of any law in any country you live in or have visited in the last 180 days.  having absolutely no evidence should not cause you to hesitate for even a second, it is your duty!

 :D

Seriously though, filing a complaint/inquiry with the police is not the same thing as filing a police report of some criminal action. It's like knocking on the window of a police car and asking if "that man over there walking around in his house without any clothes on is breaking the law or not".

I think it's the whole idea of:

"Hey, we're developing technology that will free people to use their money how they see fit, send and receive it to and from anyone they like, and use it without any meddling by banks and governments!"

"Realy? Let me report that to the authorities, just in case!"

that's somewhat disgusting  :-\

Also, can someone explain to me why money laundering is a bad thing? Bitcoin launders money every time you send money to someone and receive change to a different random address. What's wrong with having anonymous money?

please read at least the first posts Rassah, you will understand. The laundering involves us dollars and i don't know why it's a bad thing in general, guess it has something to do with war on drugs.

Despite digging his business its own grave, I think OP did actually something GOOD to the BTC economy:

IMO the complaint is just an obvious sample of what may be going on behind the scenes anyway. If we honestly thought nobody would ever question the legitimacy or status of BTC businesses, if just kept quiet about it, we would have changed that way of thinking at least after the recent pressure on tradehill & paxum became public. Its overdue.

So what are we complaining about?

In fact this little wake up call (and I certainly hope Zhou takes it seriously) may prove to be beneficial to BTC and Bitcoinica after all. If BTC related businesses havent thought too much about legal implications of their doing, then now they will start. Preparing and building resilience against legal difficulties can never be wrong. After all its only one individual lodging this rant. On top of all, its Spain (no offence Spanians ;) )being a small market possible action may not affect others immediately. Being also part of the EU, any rulings may take a long time and can be expected to be publicly discussed, making it possible to take part in the decision making process.

To sum up, nothing unexpected should have happened and it only paves another step on the road to mainstream adoption.

Perspectives fully reversed in this thread.

Dear Bitcointalk members,

Thank you for your active participation in this thread. We're now working on the official response regarding this matter and hopefully we can clear things up.

Meanwhile, we want to make clear a few things:

- Bitcoinica is no longer a product of xWaylab Inc., and we no longer operate in the jurisdiction of Delaware. We have registered a new entity outside of United States and we are now a fully licensed financial services provider in that country. (We will announce our new corporate structure with proof of financial services license available from a government site.)

- Bitcoinica is a Bitcoin CFD (Contract For Difference) trading platform, not a bucket shop. Even though our trading facilities don't deliver actual Bitcoins, there is actual trading of Bitcoins among Bitcoinica customers or at other exchanges. The benefit of trading CFDs instead of Bitcoins is the possibility of margin trading of commodity-like assets, instead of contract-like assets. The underlying trading process is absolutely legal.

- We have a legal deadline for doing KYC procedures, and currently we are still far from that. However, we are considering requiring identification documents from our customers. We will launch a poll to hear your voices.

It's surprising that the OP didn't give us more than 3 days to announce the changes at the corporate side of Bitcoinica, and this thread has forced us to put aside our technical development and focus on the legal problems right away. We will address these issues soon.

What jurisdiction does Spain have anyway? Prolly the best they can do is make it illegal for their citizens to use Bitcoinica.  ???

you are soo greedy that you lost your minds...

Thank you, Zhou, for your clear post and update. What many people on this thread do not realize is that CFDs operate legally in most parts of the world except for........surprise, surprise........the USA.

"CFDs are currently available in the United Kingdom, Hong Kong, The Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Singapore, South Africa, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway, France, Ireland, Japan and Spain. They are not permitted in the United States, due to restrictions by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission on over-the-counter (OTC) financial instruments."
 --from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference

As others have said this isn't a big deal and was bound to happen anyway. I am not sure why parapain is involved in bitcoins if he is the type of person who is so interested in contacting police about a possible bucket shop though. It is strange behavior to say the least. Since I don't understand it, I suspect ulterior motives. In my experience, when someones behavior doesn't make sense, the majority of the time there is some hidden motive.

So, ok whatever. People should be demanding transparency before using a service anyway. The thing is that IMO if they don't and get scammed it is their problem. There where earlier threads in which people questioned bitcoinica publicly and got enough attention from users to get a detailed explanation from zhou. This would have been the correct way to achieve his goal, and has been demonstrated effective in the past (once again IMO). I am on this forum often and never came across one of parapain's posts regarding this. Trying to involve some guys with guns who probably know nothing about bitcoin is wasteful of government resources, likely to be ineffective, and, most importantly, overtly aggressive.

In case parapain has honest intentions here, with this post I just hope to explain why his actions have raised suspicion about his motives and character.

I don't think Zhou should use an internet forum to deal with legal complaints. It's not the right area.

Agreed. He's way too nice to people here, but he does things for the community of it.

I am glad the OP introduced me to another user I can ignore on the forums.

@zhoutong thanks for answering some questions. Can you show us some paperwork on bitcoinica.com, like company registration with the local authorities, and your position in the company ? Contract or similar will do, you can blackout very sensitive information.

Who else works at bitcoinica.com ? Can you provide some relevant information in the public domain on the issues above ?

Can you do the same for your "business" ???

indeed but that would be only for my person, as i don't have a company. please keep on topic dude

So you didn't bother to ask him FIRST? A few days delay before they publish the necessary documents is too long to wait? What is the time-sensitive ulterior motive here? You are asking for information, have been told it will be coming very soon (which it will), and now it is our turn to ask you a few things. First question being: Do you have the necessary licenses to deal with cash in the manner that your "business" does? And, can you prove it?

Attention business owners:

Please send you applications for the Paraipan Seal of Approval or you'll be denounced to the popos.

https://i.imgur.com/ab4H1.jpg

Best thing I saw all day. :D

Thank you psy !!!

LOL. Seal of approval. Hehehe.

Ugh. Well I wish I could say OP didn't deserve it, but it's going to be an interest month while we wait for this meme to die down.

Well as soon as Freddie Prinze Jr week is gone I am switching my avatar to "Paraipan seal of approval" week.

Loving that seal, psy !

I have already promised to release this information, but not now due to our on-going process of corporate re-organization. We just developed the account verification system today.

It's fine if you proceed with whatever you're doing. But your compliant is definitely invalid according to our current status.

Im going to agree with this.
A business that doesnt even want to disclose what country its registered in? Really?
Considering the volume bitcoinica seems to represent and the amount of coins and dollars it holds, a minimum of transparency and compliance with laws is not too much to ask for. I dont know why everyone has to vilify the OP for that.

hasnt zhoutong claimed they expect to release public information in the near future?  

I cant help but feel like OP is like a school boy bringing silly problems to the teacher.

does OP REALLY expect bitcoinica to give this information right away?

and what IF bitcoinica were deemed illegal and the only way to operate it was to keep this stuff private, what then?

you know what, im going to request the spanish government to force satoshi to reveal his identity as well..... :o

Obviously OP lost some money on bitcoinica and this is his only outlet..

Your actions are that of a lost puppy dog..

Your report will go nowhere, you should at least file complaints about scammers that have ALREADY SCAMMED

Also, if you follow what Zhou says in his numerous posts, he said he was going to release it anyways a couple weeks ago..


Im in awe you threw away your credibility pursuing this trivial matter, but thank you for showing us all your true colours..

greedy greedy greedy nutbar you are..   ::)

haha, thanks guys you're awesome, my nick is Paraipan and i approve this message :)

Easy, bitcoin is not cash, only a digital good so taxes are filed for trading digital goods. Sending cash from one individual to another wasn't illegal last time i checked if you comply with the regulations and limits. If you traded with me at least once in the past you have it more than proven.

The requested information had to be made public in the first place. I will not withdraw my complaint without you making a public announcement presenting your company public information. The validity of my complaint is not of your duties to decide.

Can you refrain only answering some of my questions please, who else works at/with bitcoinica.com ?

No, I will not answer your questions from now on.

We will focus on finalizing our KYC stuff for compliance. All the information you asked for will be released in public when we're ready to. It's an important strategic move for us, and we want to be extremely careful about every big change we make.

I don't care about your complaint. The Board has already approved a re-organization of the company, and Bitcoinica will operate in neither United States nor Singapore. We care more about our clients' responses towards our KYC requirements and how the public will react to the financial services provider status we have got.

We are 100% confident that what we are doing is fully legal and ethical. A legal complaint from a random guy doesn't change what we are doing right now.

ok, i understand. I am only spending more time in here trying to keep an elaborate conversation with you just in case i was wrong and a withdrawal of my complaint was needed after you proved bitcoinica.com being legal and compliant.

I'm 100% confident that you are and wait forward for you to prove it to your users and "random guys", in any way you see fit.

Is this contact info correct ?

support@bitcoinica.com
+1 (408) 899-5564

This complaint for legal investigation has been put into Mtgox attention today with a support ticket.

Paraipan,

The only time I have ever posted anything negative about someone on the forums was in regards to Tom Williams.

This will be the second time.

People like you are exactly what is wrong with the world.
Bitcoinica hasn't hurt anyone, so you should mind your own business.
If you don't trust Bitcoinica,  don't use them,  but don't try to use men with guns to block the rest of us from doing business with whoever we want.


Please spend some time reading some books on economics,  and morality. 
It will change your view of the world, and make you a better person.

What in the fuck does this have to do with MtGox? What is this I don't even

THIS!!!


Well said..

You are such a spoiled little baby Parapain...

Thanks for the advice dude, i will consider it :)
The thing is we're on the same boat, and if it takes water we all go down, looking into another direction isn't an option only addressing the issue. I will appreciate you enabling the logic "chips" of your brain and reconsider your position, any help is appreciated.

Rocking the boat some more eh ?

Bitcoinica uses Mtgox services (trading platform, mtgox codes), i hoped you guys saw this one.

How is Gox supposed to track which codes were exchanged person to person, and which were exchanged through Bitcoinica? Seems like that complaint will be as effective as complaining to Spain about a site in Asia.

Hahaha..  did you just find this out ?  my god man..

Your little mission here is becoming more ridiculous every time you open your mouth..

Can you not see how stupid you are making yourself look ? Is this your cry for help ?
Are you depressed ?  

Life is good, go find some street thugs and beat them up, they are criminals..  

Then report yourself for assault dont forget!

mtgox already tracks internally it's codes. Bitcoinica has it's own codes that need to follow the same procedure. Spain has laws that include economic on-line services outside it's frontiers. Bitcoinica.com is hosted in US, Texas so it has to comply with laws and regulations there too not only in the country where they registered.

https://i.imgur.com/wBNtZ.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/wBNtZ.jpg)


Quoting zhoutong from other thread

... because you keep seeing it as your own boat

I have lived in Spain a long time & if I can be bothered then in the interests of openness & full disclosure that the OP seems so keen on I shall ask my contacts here if what I suspect is true, that denuncias are documents in the public domain & so one can request a copy of them without the OP's redactions & I will then happily post it here, 2 of my contacts are female black belt lawyers  :D

edit: copy would be requested through intermediaries  ;)

+1

i will happily provide you an unedited copy, no need to contact third parties for that. "Denuncia", complaint can be made public if the complainer choses too, guarding his privacy.

Someone help me understand.

I see some people here raving against the OP; to some extend even the same people that accuse(d) Butterfly Labs from running a scam and (rightfully) demanding correct information about the company's registration, legal status, location, contact data etc. Some even going so far as putting a bounty on pictures or video of the people behind the alleged scam. Butterfly lab at that time probably held less than a few $1000 of customers money, all of which was protected by paypal policy anyway.

Then we have Bitcoinica, a financial service provider which holds significantly larger sums of money and btcs with zero customer protection and operating in a legal vacuum. All we know about the company is .. nothing (afaik), other than a pseudonym of the guy running it. Its not even disclosed what country its operating from, what legal status the company, if any, has, nothing. Not even the name!

I dont know, but demanding such information is absolutely the right thing to do IMO. If said company is not forth coming with that info, I see no harm in pursuing legal options to ensure Bitcoinica's customers at the very least know who to sue if something goes terribly wrong.

I certainly hope no one here will have to thank paraipan one day for getting that info out, but its not exactly unthinkable. Have we learned nothing from mybitcoin.com?

Most jurisdictions allow the public to inspect the physical records (registration/articles of association etc) at the registered address.  There is normally no requirement to provide them free to anyone that asks.  The OP could go to Singapore and view them, if it is a registered business. 

Of course, many "businesses" are not registered and do not need to be under local laws if they are small (self employed people often come under that category, or sole traders).

Then again, there are some other places where you can register a business without any paper work at all, and for no fee - and you can stay secret as long as you like. 

Zhou has answered many questions.  Like others, having a formal account identification is not necessary (I don't have an account or id with many people I exchange cash or credit with - others I do).

sure that makes it simpler, please to PM me one or a link to it, I may look in to what freedom of information pertains to denucias in any case now that I've got curious about it so that I can be sure of it

Not really.
Imagine the following hypothetical scenario:

- user account gets suddenly "locked out, contact support" @ TH.
- user contacts TH support for multiple times, no answer given.
- user does not like to be robbed, and with all means at his disposal, does all he can to inflict pain on those who stole from him.

So, yeah, this is NOT the attitude that got TH shut down. It was TH shooting their own foot.

Do we even know where its registered and under what name? I certainly dont.

Big difference between
"I demand you make your information public for the safety of all Bitcoin users"

and

"I have submitted a complaint against you to the authorities. Now tell me some information."

Personally, I'm all for demanding that Bitcoin based businesses follow some minimum level of public disclosure and reporting, even to the point that if enough of them do it, those who choose not to get shunned. What I am against is bringing the authorities into it before the business even has a chance to reply. Talk first, shoot later.

Well stated, my man. I have no problem with demanding disclosure, but to whine to the police and then boast of it is reprehensible.

Agreed. I have been hearing about this for the past 12 hours from my group regarding association with Parapain as well. Let me take a moment to make something absolutely clear.

If he doesn't budge another inch until there is a reason to (ZhouTong does or does not provide said documents), then I think this issue needs to die. We all know (or most of us) that there is nothing legally he could complain about in his country that wouldn't just incriminate himself only, but it's important the personal attacks stop so that the silence before the revelation will be deafening.

When Zhou Tong posts the information (which he will, and I know for a fact what he's going to post) Parapain needs to apologize for the way he went about this. Other than that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with inquiring to the police to look into something you personally feel could be a scam, and all the misinformation Parapain is believing should be excuse enough for his actions.

Whether he ever translates a single word for the magazine should never be a topic of discussion, nor should his character. What should be a topic of discussion is "correct ways to inquire into the legality of something" followed by "correct ways to teach forum members a lesson". Since no actual harm has (nor probably will) come from this, the only thing we have is a thread about bitcoinica full of spite and vile, agging on a person who thinks they are doing the right thing.

One thing is for absofuckinglutely sure-- if I were parapain, I'd be fueled even further by it, so why not let this thread dust up a bit until 3 weeks from now?

That's my advice as an ex-constant-self-embarrasser-on-the-forums. Hell, I can even tell you guys a story of when Zhou Tong himself did something exactly like this and then later apologized. Education is key guys. Education.

As I understood, the OP had made several such requests and got nothing. Maybe I misread that? Even so, fact is even now Zoutoung doesnt even want to say the country his business is registered in (let alone all the other thing his customers ought to know), that should raise red flags and alarm bells all over.

Dont get me wrong, I have no reason to assume he will scam anyone, but I cant see any reason why Zoutoung wouldnt put this information on his website either (AFAIK, he is legally obliged to in several countries, among them Germany). Instead we have a 17 year old wizzkid controlling what most likely is a small fortune in dollars and btc, perhaps more than anyone else in the bitcoin world, and we have no clue who he is, what company is running the show, nothing.

That he says he will say so soon is simply not good enough by any stretch.

I think everyone understands the little significance of his legal filing.  Users are merely outraged at the silliness/hipocracy shown. 

Wow. Is it that hard to find a different Spanish language translator?

How you like it if someone filed a report with the police that Bitcoin Magazine is a scam to collect advertising and subscription revenue without delivering?


I see how your magazine could be a scam, should I file a police report, just in case?  That would be ridiculous, and borderline harassment.

I feel like you are defending him because of concerns about your magazine's brand, but you would feel differently if you weren't preparing to do business with him.

do it..

you have been asked multiple times, yet wont do it!

Dude, give the man a break, it's not easy to get €300 to have a registered company, mind you...

my god man, have you not read this thread?  nobody disagrees with what you said above.  yes we expect bitcoinica to publish proper docs.  zhou has told us mulitple times it is coming very soon.  we are outraged in the manner OP has gone about it.


i dont actually expect him to, nor do i think he should.  im just trying to point out how hypocritical this guy is.

If you think the magazine could be a scam, you should ask your police to check into it (unless you're someone like yourself or myself who would probably just check into it ourselves and maybe do a better job than the police).

Not at all. I am thinking with a very clear head, and here's why:

Zhou Tong did the same thing parapipain is doing but to Cryptoxchange in a thread here, literally the same exact thing, and later apologized for it after I showed him the details and did the research myself. The only difference is that I cleaned that mess up and got the people he did it against to forgive him for potentially costing them business. I see this as just bad Karma for Zhou and a good reminder of how the price of Bitcoin affects people's emotions.

Forget what you think my reasoning is for defending this principle, and instead focus on this point: Paripipain is not a 'traitor' to bitcoin. If so, Zhou Tong is also a traitor himself.

Chew on that for a while.

Ahhhhhhh so Parapain has something to do with crypto exchange...


I see where this stupidity comes from...

how did you learn this?

No. Zhou had suspicions about CryptoX which he raised in this forum when they first launched.  I agreed, the announcement was misleading, but they clarified and all was well.

This is the proper way to deal with this situation.

I consider raising suspicions in the forum and filling a complaint with the police to be whole different ballparks.

+1
Clear heads agree

Quote from: Otoh on Today at 22:59:28

Quote from: paraipan on Today at 22:52:17

Quote from: Otoh on Today at 22:50:59

Quote from: paraipan on Today at 22:23:00


Hi, sorry to bother, i will send you a copy of the complaint on bitcoinica where my name and last name is stated as promised. My email is redacted@gmail.com, what is yours, i will not use the forum messaging for this. Do you have an OTC market profile or just the forum account.
my otc is http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=paraipan
 

Waiting for your response, thanks


Hi, my email is otoh@hushmail.com
nope as yet I haven't made an OTC market profile
Thanks, Otoh


ok got it, anything else you may have to check on your reputation ?
you can check mine at http://paraipan.myopenid.com
 

I don't care to disclose any info, the offer to provide an unredacted copy of your denuncia came from you, so if you do so or not is up to you also, I shall check out if this document is filed publicly & if so I shall request a copy of the original

Cheers, Otoh


Ok, i'm not convinced really, you put up a while ago a SR account for sale, just checked up you post history, and give me a hushmail email.
I will send you a redacted copy where my names and last name show up only.


https://i.imgur.com/UR35t.jpg

Otoh

@Otoh great, i send it to you as requested so posting it here doesn't matter, it's already in the OP.
Do you mind removing my email from your post ?

sure np

https://i.imgur.com/5UusI.png

I think paraipan's full name is Alexandru Bogdan Semenciuc, if it helps in trying to find the police report.

This is going out of hand, i'm locking this thread until further notice :-\

MtGox response: