Bitcoin Forum

Source: http://www.storyleak.com/us-dollar-under-grave-threat-russia-plans-global-retaliation/

As both russia and china are pretty anti-bitcoin they will not officially approve of bitcoin,

however, the natural reaction of humans when a currency collapses or is nearing collapse is to return to safer assets, such as gold, silver, fuel, food, tobacco, coffee, chocolate, sugar, tea, etc.

Now that we also have a pretty safe (depending a bit on how the status of the intetnet is, either via cellphone or via line) digital alternative to gold and silver, which has many advantages and far less disadvantages, it's almost guaranteed that bitcoin will skyrocket during a currency collapse. Altough it depends a lot on other circumstances.

Either way the USD/Bitcoin price will be much more kind towards bitcoin, but the bitcoin/gold and bitcoin/coffee price i'm not sure.

Still it would be better to stock up on bitcoin than it is to stock up on dollars, because you can be sure dollars will be worthless in such a scenario. Which is bound to happen sooner or later anyway. Just how much longer do you think america can keep kicking the can?

The Dollar crash has been looming for years and it will be ugly. Many people will suffer, so this is not something to look forward to, imo.
Chance for Bitcoin?
Yes, the fiat collapse will be huge for Bitcoin, but watch the price of BTC/Gold, since your fiat wealth will be an illusion.

An interesting, at least plausible story.

In case of USD-collapse a lot of capital will flee into alternative investments. But Bitcoin is not the only option. Many alternative investments will see price increases. Of course also USD/Bitcoin-exchange ratio will jump skyhigh, but that won't signify much, since the USD then being worthless.

I am no fan of the fed or our foreign policy, but wasn't it Russia that just annexed a chunk of another sovereign nation? Seems like the would be hero Putin has the propaganda machinery running on full throttle. 

BTC : Gold and the BTC : Oil ratio is what to watch when the USD collapses. All other fiats will alos come into question when the collapse occurs.

China has already prepared with several years of stockpiling gold so watch the Yuan : Gold

Russia is primmed with oil and natural gas so for them watch the Ruble : Oil

From these ratios you can detemine the local value of BTC :fiat. e.g. local fiat : BTC :Gold / Oil

instead of measuring bitcoin vs dollar. make it bitcoin vs household needs (consumer price index/cost of living) then as the dollar goes crazy, we can see the stable bitcoin value that moves with actual consumer use/value.

EG no point in screaming that bitcoin is worth $100k if that $100k only buys a loaf of bread or converts to only 1 EURO

so i think bitcoin right now roughly equates to 2 weeks cost of living in UK, US and EUROzone

I used to believe strongly in the US dollar someday (soon) crashing into "mega-hyper-inflation." But I'm not so sure any more.

The main thing that changed my mind was learning about Bitcoin and what gives it its "intrinsic value."

The reason bitcoin has value is because it has great utility - in the present, and especially in the future. The US dollar also has great utility. It's the most accepted currency on the planet.

Now things like the OP posted will, of course, reduce that utility. But it will take a long time, and a lot of things like the above to turn the dollar into a useless piece of paper. Don't get me wrong, the dollar is going down significantly in the near future, but I think it will be just a big hit like Mt Gox was for Bitcoin. We can blame Mt Gox for cutting the value of Bitcoin in half and the Chinese "banning" for some more droppage, but it didn't kill Bitcoin and I don't think the things coming down the pike for the dollar will destroy it either. Of course those drops in value with the US dollar will be permanent unless policies dramatically change (ha-ha), where Bitcoin will continue to recover and move up in true buying power.

Soon we will be be able to value it as a basket of goods and services. Aside from exhanges we can decouple bitcoin from other currency.

Bitcoin doesn't need to do anything except wait for the existing financial systems to fail once again. Greed and corruption will cause another USD crash because nobody in governments has any balls left to clean it up. And I think the next crash is going to be worse than the 08 one, because it doesn't look we really learned anything from it - none of the scumbags that caused and played a role in it went to jail, and large companies were bailed out. Bitcoin and cryptos may not become the next world currency until far into the future, but with every year we are growing as a very attractive option for people who are tired of the corruption and ineptitude of the mainstream system.

time to get ready for the crash :D

I am starting to think the collapse is close. It would not take much at this point to tip it and no one in this country has the stomach for another huge round of bailouts and "shovel ready jobs."

If Obama had half a clue he would start dumping tens of millions at a time into bitcoin right now.  Get something of value for those paper bills before it's too late dude!

America!! Fuck yeah!  :p

Whenever people talk about the collapse of the dollar, I am always left wondering what the hell they are talking about.

The dollar has spent the last century collapsing.

http://www.small-business-goldmine.com/images/MeltingDollar-1913.gif

It's already worthless, that's why America has no middle class left to speak of, only a massive servant caste and a tiny elite caste.

99% and 1% rhetoric didn't materialize in a political vaccum, you know. There is real shit going down here.

Real ugly shit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM).

They are talking about the final stages of collapse.

"When money dies" by Adam Fergusson is a great book on the subject, which outlines how this collapse manifests itself in the final stages. Google it, it's available as a pdf download.

Till date, I have heard stories of bitcoin may crash any time. Now I hear Dollar may crash anytime ? LoLz... the table is turning man ;)

I would hope the dollar doesn't crash any time soon- or at least for a few more years. I don't know if Bitcoin's value would go up much if there was a crash tomorrow (for instance) because Bitcoin is still so little known, people are so misinformed, and there's still an element of complexity.

If Bitcoin became massively adopted in a year, and THEN the dollar crashed, I would feel much better. We need more stability and adoption first.

There is a fine line between tin foil conspiracies and the reality that we are dealing with. The tin foil stuff just causes people to tune out instead of looking at the reality of it all and taking action to protect themselves. The US has not built 500 death camps for instance.

if the dollar crashed to a point where a loaf of bread cost $600 and an average wage per week went to $36k (imagin zimbabwe dollar scenario) then if bitcoin was not spiking to $60k purely on the inflation curve.. and stayed at $600 a coin, im sure as hell gonna buy every coin i can get my hands on.

anything below 2 weeks cost of living im buying :D

I dont see, why Bitcoin will stick to 600 USD if Dollar falls ? It is inversely proportional ...and it should jump.

If people see it as a reliable store of wealth it will jump exponentially.

my if it stayed at $600 was in connection to this statement


... and remember i said IF..

ofcourse it would spike, but i was playing along with spontaneousdream's mindset just to say if it stayed low, id be buying in big hoards of bitcoins (to add to my existing hoard)

Dollars where an iluminati test that will be replaced by Bitcoin as a new worldwide order  :D

I think dollar is a huge, very big bubble that will pop very soon, it's about time, Bitcoins are starting a new age...

is it just me or do other people think that when someone shouts illuminati, i/others imagine an armchair activist basement dweller that loves watching 36 hours of youtube FUD without sleep inbetween

I know that the media continually marginalizes those whose thoughts are outside of a very narrow range within the broad spectrum of possible realities. They perform this marginalization by inculcating that very stereotype -albeit with foaming at the mouth, racist beliefs, inability to form a coherent thought, dependency upon others for their continued existence, etc., etc. thrown into the mix for good measure.

Mass media is _very_ good at keeping the masses in line.

While a good number of so-called 'conspiracy theorists' are indeed loons, many are not.

Move past your indoctrination. Your adherence to mental orthodoxy is manifest in your statement about _shouting_ illuminati.

If the US dollar were to go into hyper-inflation status then with all else being equal then bitcoin would simply appreciate at the same rate of inflation. 

x2 that fellows post tells us  a lot about "him".

Russia and China will not officially approve of bitcoins.

It seems to be that anytime there is any kind of significant economic crisis (particularly if it's a country-wide thing, ie Cyprus) it seems to pump bitcoin price up quite a bit. 

China will not support Russia in crashing the USD.  They'd be freaking stupid considering the are heavily invested in it.  That's as obvious as tits on a cow.  Putin is full of shit as usual and panders to nationalism.  If he had even one nut he'd be building crypto currency infrastructure before other first world countries.  (Nah, easier to borrow a stolen copy from the Chinese.)

Note to self: iPhones do not do well when submerged in toilet water.  Geez, I gotta put this thing to my ear?

Russia and US are always against the other and try to defeat the other.  The USA is the largest economy and the dollar is accepted as most reliable and valuable currency by most people in the world. Most goods or services are priced at dollar, even the cryptocurrency at the moment. To crash dollar system is not easy by any country even the Russia. In the future BTC will get accepted by the majority of the population then maybe BTC has the chance to take over dollar.

The matter of the fact is that a lot of big businesses in tee bitcoin world is actually run from Russian soil or by a Russian from elsewhere. Putin has a thousand things to think apart from cryptocurrency, but u cant deny the Russian involvement in the Bitcoin scenario.

Why would Russia want to destroy this? They have been our ally for a world war and are our trading partner now

Have not u heard of cold war between Russia and USA ? Moreover, Putin does not like US's stance on Ukraine in the recent aggression.

Yes we had the cold war, however there was not actually any fighting directly between the US and Russia.

Putin is an old KGB agent though. Old habits die hard. I don't think he can do much more than saber rattle quite frankly. In a real shooting war with the west he would be way out gunned.

I don't see the whole currency war thing.  Since Nixon ended the gold standard, $Fiat already died long ago and it's been replaced by assets.  Very few people have more than 5 digit savings as they put all their money into housing and stocks.

If $USD is replaced by another currency it wouldn't impact assets much.  Look at Eastern European and Chinese real estate, their real estate prices rival or even exceed those of many American areas.  Changing the Petro Currency wouldn't change any of that.  

Technically if Petro Dollar died it wouldn't impact the elites or the asset holders much, but it would probably make life hard for the working poor with no assets and run away inflation would probably make them riot.  "When a man has nothing to lose - he loses it"
 

Dont forget that his aides got into UK's land and killed a double-agent working for MI5/MI6 using Polonium.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko

Moreover, as a strategy of cold war, Putin is not showing army movement against the west. Rather he is chalking out a financial war to weaken USD, where he'll most likely get China by his side.

Most corporations have well over 5 figures in Fiat (usually fiat equivalents like very short term treasury bonds) to pay for operating expenses and when they cannot invest their money without taking on excess risk.

People should have at least 6 months of savings if they have a steady job or 2 years worth of savings if they are self employed or hold a non-steady job. Granted most people do not have this, but people that have the means do have this before investing a lot in other assets. 

The Fallacy Of The Dollar Crash

http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/the-fallacy-of-the-dollar-crash/

Well corporations tend to be very massive entities, so naturally they would keep these sort of savings on hand, but I feel a corporation can react quicker to the demise of the $USD than ordinary middle and working class people who would be largely oblivious.

Corporations with short turnovers would be affected, like many food corporations have a turnover of weeks and thus a sudden loss of the petrodollar could force many businesses out of business..  but your typical big money entities like industry, IT, et cetera, would have plenty of time to adopt.

Honestly the only people who lose out in a real scenario of the end of $USD strength is the working class / non-asset class and the government / military (asset taxes would not make up for the loss in income tax when the currency drops).

I don't know what everyone else will do but I'll be selling popcorn for bitcoin.

This may be true but Russia has a lot to lose and the chances of them loosing are greater now then in the cold war.

This is all about prediction. U never know what is actually happening deep inside China & Russia, because they are not so open like Western world.

Your fiat will be useless, might as well use it a paper for starting a fire.

This actually happened for the German currency after the war.

http://www.silver-investor.com/charlessavoie/cs_july06_paper_hangers/images/image035.jpg

Source: http://www.silver-investor.com/charlessavoie/cs_july06_paperhangers.htm

China holds trillions of dollars and trillions more of other countries currencies. If China were to destroy the US dollar then they would lose money on those dollar investments.

Yes, it is a bit like the old cold war mutually assured destruction doctrine. They need a healthy US dollar more than we do. Things could get ugly fast if we were to default.

In reality, dollar holding does not take place in a country's territory. It is shown on book. That is the reason US could freeze Putin's holding in swiss banks, because in reality the dollar is physically stored at US, where swiss bank cant do anything. They just need to erase Putin's holding from the book.

So, in short, China cant destroy USD directly like that. It is achieved through business and sanctions. And if Russia unites with China, US's business activity will surely take a hit.

The dollar crash has been looming for years and nothign happened.
Do you remember how the EU would fall in 2000, 2005, 2010 ..2015...
Same for the so called euro crash which is also not happening.

China & Russia are working for years to crash USD backed by OIL. Here is a report from 2012 => http://etfdailynews.com/2012/10/09/china-russia-and-the-end-of-the-petrodollar/

And this just adds to my point.
They are trying and trying and nothing.

Furthermore:
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140523/190068675/China-to-Pay-for-Russian-Gas-in-US-Dollars--Russian-Energy.html

Laughable

The brics countries are themselves in such a deep s*** nobody really believes in them anymore.
They are all facing far more problems than Europe and the US right now.

Economists: Global GDP growth on the rise, but BRICs disappoint
http://www.autonews.com/article/20140415/GLOBAL/140419902/economists:-global-gdp-growth-on-the-rise-but-brics-disappoint

And the dollar is so dead ...
I hear that more often than the chinese ban on bitcoin , and it has the same impact.

LoLz... I understand that u have a shitload of USD reserve in your bank account. But, when reports of Oil curtail's accepting BTC (http://www.gulf-times.com/eco.-bus.%20news/256/details/398622/kuwait-finance-firm-suggests-trading-oil-in-bitcoins) is coming up, u should seriously consider to convert them to BTC.... at least half of them ;)

I actually have more bitcoins in my wallet than usd in my bank account.
Also , I doubt I have ever used the usd in my life. :).

So you're understanding nothing.

Germany ;).
Why deal with countries which are both manipulating their currency more than quarkcoin or maxcoin ?

Also according to some  Germany has already claimed number 1 spot in trade balance from China.

What a coincidence
 I just run across an article about that comment when searching for Germany trade balance numbers:

http://www.europeaninstitute.org/EA-January-2014/perspectives-the-german-trade-surplus-bane-or-boon.html

But really , producing something usable is bad...... better producing useless fiat currency , right?
Too bad that piece of paper is still backed by something more important than economic growth.

lol russia

The point is that if China were to take actions that were damaging to to the US Dollar then they themselves would take a hit as holders of Trillions of US Dollars.

Maybe it's good for development of Bitcoin.

U r missing the point. When u say a non-US country is holding USD, it does not mean they are physically holding that. They are holding an equivalent value. USD fall just needs a value change for them. It hurts only USA.

russian softening stance on bitcoin now so this story could have some weight.

If a country is holding dollars then these dollars can purchase a certain amount of goods/services. If the value of the dollar were to fall then the dollars that the country is holding can now purchase less goods/services

fact realy is that dollar is falling, but will bitcoin realy be the solution, im not so sure, but there will definetly be people who will spread FUD about that happening.

ive read about russia forgiving large portion of debt to korea, and germany that is allying with china, but it all may be a big hoax, we cant know for sure.

You are confused about what gives money value. That dollar is the most accepted currency on the planet is correct, and that is the hallmark of good money. The best money is the one that is most accepted. But that is now. If the money's value continues down its slippery slope, and if there are alternatives, it will not be the best money, and it will not be accepted to the same degree. So the causation relation is the other way: Good money is accepted, and the quality in question is the long time value, the other money qualities of the dollar is OK.

The inflation expectation, a favorite parameter for the central banks to measure, is about 2% yearly for dollars. So everyone integrates that number in their calculations and happily chug along. You could say that the value of the inflation adjusted dollar is constant. But we are talking about expectation here, and that is something that is in the mind of the actors, and everybody on the planet have the dollar value in their mind. The problem comes when all these people modifies their considerations. It is not up to the central bankers, all they can do is to present their "puts" and hope. The real reason for the value is the supply, which we know is increasing, and the reserve demand from all actors, a parameter that depends on the expectations for the continued value. A positive feedback loop.

Not just you, but be aware that the hordes are in a sense hypnotized, with a programmed reaction to certain words like conspiracy, dollar fall, gold bug, illuminati, government violence and a few others. They are programmed to adjust their normal side blinders to cover their eyes completely for a while, until the person uttering the words is gone. The wise thing to do, is to open your mind just a bit and think. All human action requires fantasy, emotions and knowledge. And without action you are just a helpless witness.

He suggests erroneously how the dollar has value:


The dollar has value, authority, and spending power simply due to the fact that the United States military beats the shit out of anyone who doesn’t accept it, making it what is referred to as the “world reserve currency”

See my earlier post why the dollar has value:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=664620.msg7665783#msg7665783 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=664620.msg7665783#msg7665783)

The analysiz by Sergej Glazyev in the original post is mostly correct in my view.

The bank transfers, the credit card systems and all world remittance systems have all been captured by the bullies in the united states government. (That doesn't mean that the russian government are not bullies).

What the russians could and should do, is to establish a network of banks/exhanges in all countries totally disconnected from the current bank system, offering deposit accounts in rubles and renmimbi (and others) combined with market based exchanges for these currencies. For USD, only deposit and withdrawal of notes. Of course they would have to stop meddling with their exchange ratios.

That would take some of the power out of the USA bank hegemony.

Russia and China are pretty anti-bitcoin

Why is the dollar certain to lose value? It is by far the most traded and the most accepted form of payment in the world.

Do you have any sources regarding these rumors? Both sound contrary to what russia and Germany would likely wish to do.

I would also disagree that the dollars is falling in value

That dollar is losing value all the time. Inflation of any currency devalues it. The fact that it is a reserve currency can only prop it up for so long.

Inflation will always cause any currency to lose value, but inflation does not take a major toll on the buying power of currencies when kept in check (is low enough)

Good read: http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making-Global-Crises/dp/B006JAM3UU/ref=tmm_aud_title_0

Author served on a DoD war game where the USD was attacked by Russia...

Globalization would prevent this from being successful. Since Russia needs to trade with other countries and most trade is denominated in US Dollars, there would be a demand to have US based banking transfers. 

Maybe we'll get lucky and Putin will only target Washington D.C. with his nukes.

did you even read the freaking article?

people that have the means do have this before investing a lot in other assets. 

You mean the nuke attack on NY and London that US will be responsible for?  On the 22/7?

interesting, but i dont think the Russian could make it happen. Dollar has been the leading currency for so many years mate.

This is in formation as an alternative to IMF & World Bank which are the backbone of trade domination => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS_Development_Bank

tick tock tick tock

https://31.media.tumblr.com/c32761e6d34bd0182062a36ebf2be5c2/tumblr_inline_n3g9xignn91s9x8us.gif

gotta love dominos ;D

i might read this one next.. currently reading noam chomsky right now.

Well it is included. The point is to disconnect from the us-governed banks.
Ok to detail it: USD transfers within this new banking system would be possible (but probably not needed, that is the point with this proposed system), but not wire transfers such as SWIFT, because that would make the new system vulnerable to pressure from the us government.

Anyway, I don't want to detail it more because I am not going to build it.

I don't see a demand for that kind of system. I see and understand that it would be disconnected from US banks, however compared to other banks in global financial centers US banks are more healthy then their counterparts, making them more attractive to trade and deal with. I understand why Russia may want to do this as retaliation for US sanctions but I don't see why other countries would want to participate.

Well the individual actors and the whole countries that are shut out of that systems on the whims of the USG, plus the people that proposes that the USG has grossly exploited that system to the harm of producers around the globe, may beg to differ. That would be the reason to establish another system. If everybody are happy with the current system, obviously they use that.

Edit: I don't even want to blame only the USG, because any country could have devised its own fiat system non-inflationary just like bitcoin (minus the trust in the money issuer), if they wanted. The current system came about partly by historical accident, partly by ignorance, and partly by the fact that other governments are also evil.

This would be a very small monetary system as there are very few countries that are shut out of the global remittance system, and the ones that are shut out are generally not economic allies. An even more important point is that these countries are generally enemies of Russia and pose a larger military threat to Russia then the US does.

An interesting development indeed, but they need to have their share in OPEC.

The IMF and the world bank only provide funding to smaller, developing countries.