Bitcoin Forum

before 1913 there was no income tax, no central bank, and gold was money.

in 1913 the constitution was amended to allow the government to directly tax the citizens and the federal reserve was established.
for 58 years the banks printed so much money and stole so much purchasing power that America had to default on its obligation to redeem dollars for gold altogether in 1971.

and now the situation has deteriorated to the point where you have to report to the government how much you make and pay taxes even if you don't live and work in America,
simply for being a holder of an American citizenship.

not only that but the government is forcing foreign banks to spy on Americans with FATCA, so much so that some foreign banks no longer want any American customers,
because spying on them is too much hassle.

America used to stand for freedom, it was the land of opportunities and the land of the free, where government was kept in check and money was honest.
it has become but a shadow of its former self, not much better than China and Russia.

will America ever return to be as it was at the beginning of the 20th century?

The law can only be enforced when US still have the influence and military might.

As soon as US lose that influence, no one will care what US want.

The changes required to return to 1913 scenario would be drastic.
The Government has gotten used to living well. In spite of the high taxes, the fiscal deficit is growing.
So you need to have huge spending cuts before taxes can be reduced.

I see more rich Americans renouncing their citizenship to move to tax havens. You already have companies doing it through 'reverse-mergers'.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-biggest-tax-scam-ever-20140827

If you are asking if there will ever be a time when the US will not have any national taxes, then the answer is no. The reason for this is because the US has gotten too powerful internationally and economically and needs to police both the world and it's own economy.

As a result of this economic and military power, there are many more opportunities in the US then what would otherwise be.

yes, the oppertunity to witness first hand the reenactment of the fall of the roman empire

Seeing America return to what it used to be like at the beginning of the 20th century is something I do not see happening. They have let their power take over which has resulted in them not being a Country they once used to be. Even if they had the chance to go back to the way it was I don't see it happening any time soon.

This is starting to sound a bit like one of those threads for people who think tax shouldn't exist at all, so I'm hoping I've got the wrong impression there.  There needs to be a balance, sure.  And at the moment, the balance is probably a little off.  But regressing back to a time where there was much less public infrastructure to support isn't going to solve any problems.  Society wouldn't function unless there's money available to pay for public services.  Go and buy a tiny island somewhere if you can't accept that.

No free anymore. America is greedy with its global influence and power. It never wont stop fisical and military spending. So the government is always looking for ways of covering its huge deficit, like tax, increasing debt limit etc.

The sad thing is I think most American's still believe the propoganda and are under the illusion that they are 'free'. Will it ever change? Only if they ever elect somone who actually gives a shit and isnt in the pockets of the war machine.

weird, somehow society functioned just fine up until 1913.
non of your personal income tax goes to pay for any public services anyway, most of it went to bailout failed banks.

If all the wealthy people migrate, it isn't going to do the rest any good, right? We should ensure that successful individuals are given incentives to stay in the country and are not driven away.

The world is relative.

To compare to the rest of the world, US is still by far the one of the most free country in the world.

It's free for people who have a wealth and has a power and reach to higher levels.No country is ever free for us middle class and struggling people.

Ah, the good old days -- when women weren't legally allowed to vote, right? When laws were skewed to favor white, male property owners above all others? I wonder if old white men from the early 20th century fantasized about a return to the days when they could legally own slaves as well. ::)

great, everyone is allowed to vote today, its just a shame that the only candidates are from the two parties who have the money to run in the elections.
what good is the right to vote when no candidate can ever win if they are not a republican or a democrat.

why only two parties have enough money to win an election? because the banks won't fund anyone else.
the banks use the money they rob from every American every second of every day to prop up their own politicians.

so yes in the good old days when money was honest and the banks couldn't simply print it out of thin air to buy the politicians at least half of the population could vote in a manner that could change something.
today no one's vote matters, but hey good for the women for getting the right to cast a meaningless vote...

Yeah, so how in hell are you going to trade everything with Gold? exactly, it's a dumb thing in the 21st century. Gold is just a nice looking asset that you can wear as a chain and spit some gangta rap lines, but in this fast modern worldwide communicated society, it's outdated. Now FIAT is shit and prone to collapse. Whats left? Exactly, BT fucking C.

You think this all boils down to "honest money"? The banking monopoly is only a small piece of the puzzle. The use of hierarchical power against the oppressed is human's perpetual history.

The point is that the early 1900s in no way represent freedom. It was simply more of a "wild west" of opportunity within a context of drastic political, social and economic inequality. The comment on women being treated as second class citizens is only the tip of the iceberg. And the point is that "government monopolies" are the not the only ones to consider.

i won't trade in gold, ill trade everything in bitcoin.
precious metals and bitcoin are the only things that can function as money because nothing else has the properties money must have:

1. limited in supply - can't be created arbitrarily out of thin air
2. portable
3. durable
4. divisible
5. fungible - all money units are identical in purchasing power.

fiat fails badly on the first point which allows banks to steal purchasing power from everyone else.

no time period is 100% perfect, but it was much better than today.
and yes it pretty much boils down to honest money .
money is the most important thing to guarantee freedom, simply because money is one of the most important things in life.

whoever holds the money holds the power, free elections mean nothing when a bunch of private banks can create money out of thin air and are holding everyone including the government hostage.

Considering it'll take the government committing genocide (starting a hot civil war) to have anyone start prosecuting traitors...

Exactly.

100 years ago, gay and lesbian will not come out publicly to fight for their own right. Injustice will not be publish on newspaper.

We are more free than ever comparing to the 20th century and people still complain.

120 years ago, corporations would not come out for their religious and political rights... er yeah they did. Looks like freedom was just a blip in history.

We should probably think about the 17th century. No nation states. No control on immigration. :)

if a banker came to your house every day and took some of your money at gun point you'd still claim we are more free than ever?
because that's exactly what happens today, only they don't need to physically come and rob you anymore, so it doesn't feel as bad when they take your purchasing power away.

Those were the good days when anyone willing to left everything behind can come and work hard in the US.

The internet is that new land of opportunity. Leave your oppressive state and find freedom wherever it may exist for you.

They don't rob you at gunpoint. They use tools that are available to them to force you to pay them money you agreed to pay them, but now refuse to do so voluntarily.

What do you mean exactly, in reference to the internet? I'm intrigued by your comment, but I'm feeling sort of trolled right now. :D

I think the point is that people can post/write anything they want on the internet. They have more or less complete freedom of speech with very few exceptions.

Yeah, well, if that's it, then woopty doo. The long arm of the US government is long. :D

The internet's great for many things -- and potentially it could allow people to organize to achieve great change. Unfortunately, I see people becoming only more mind numbingly ignorant even as the internet becomes more prevalent.

Not again, while it is subjected to the FIAT demon.

It's really sad to see what has happened to the USA. But it's still a relatively free country. I would love to be a USA citizen to be able to move to New Hampshire and join the Free State Project.

Unfortunately I don't see it returning to what it was about a century ago. States become more interventionist as there's more wealth to steal.

hope it would be.

Those income tax etc made America who they are today.

not a single country had income tax prior to the 1900s

why do we need income tax as high as 58% in some countries now, and over 40% in most western countries?

On top of that, spending in healthcare, education and many other necessities are cut.

Every year, taxes become higher and higher, while spending becomes less and less.

The whole tax system is flawed, and the main reason is that the federal reserve prints money and loans it with interest to the government and to us. If anything, governments should print their own money or have loans without interest. Interest is what is causing all the financial problems in the world.

great for the gays and lesbians, but for the regular joe we like to have some financial freedom, instead of being a wage-slave to the bankers.

100 years ago, heck even 40 years ago, it was not needed for a family to both be employed fulltime just to get by. It was normal for one of the partners (usually the female) to stay at home while the other one worked a full time job, and they had plenty of income to get by. Also they could often afford a house (or at least get an affordable loan to get a house) at young age.

Right now, most people need to have a full time job for both partners, or even a fulltime job plus a parttime job for both partners, just to get by. Houses are so expensive hardly anyone can afford them. Young people can forget about it.

But at least gay people can marry publically.


a corrupt nation that steals from not only their own citizens, but the whole world?

That dictates how other countries should be governed?

That commits international crimes and gets away with it?

Great, not only do they steal from their citizens, they also abuse the money to fuck over the rest of the world.

what a nice country the US of Fucking A is.

You should feel proud of your contribution to the greatest scam country humankind has ever seen.

Of course we don't "need" that. Only parasites that work for the government, or get subsidies, need to steal money from productive people.

It will never be exactly the same as at the beginning of the 20th century simply because population has grown a lot and you haven't as much free space left as in the beginning.

However big improvements in regard to freedom are possible but will not come without high costs, because the existing system will not loosen its grip for power easily. I think this will only happen after a period of great crisis where large parts of the establishment are wiped out and people realize the value of freedom again.

ya.ya.yo!

Oil has reached it's peak and population is booming as always.
System will fail within next 50 years.

There is zero chance America the Nation will be free again, now I could see a civil war and a new nation formed on the idea that was America.  It would have to be written in stone all over the country WHY a civil war was needed or we'll land right back at where we are now.

IMO a civil war won't happen either almost all western  people are super super super lazy and scared of everything.  Here we are thinking we'll win a war with Russia LMAO... we wouldn't be able to handle the loss of luxuary.

The massacre on the street suggested America is too free to do whatever the people want.

There is a need to strike a balance between security and freedom.

I tend to lean towards yes.   :o 
I know, I know what your thinking.  How could that happen?  Well the average person knows right from wrong when they are given a chance to fully understand the situations they face.  People will be forced to fight back for what is theirs or live as debt slaves.  Facts are the people are the majority and the is coming when the majority of people will demand real significant change that takes the control out of the small few who currently pull the strings behind the scenes.  Not saying this will be a easy process but from what I can tell it is already taking place in the hearts and minds of people all over the world.

No.



Imagine going into a strip club, and tipping girls with btc.  Not much variety, not too exciting.  :-\

Imagine going into a strip club, giving an ugly girl a dollar, a pretty one a five, tipping one of the girls that comes up to you an 100, guess what, noone knows what you did. :(

Now imagine going to a strip club and giving the ugly girls a copper coin, giving the pretty girls a silver coin, and then taking a handful of gold coins slamming it on the bar.......shortly after two girls approach you, and you venture into the alley outside..... where unfortunately you get mugged.   :'( 

Seriously though i'd love to see the government print a trillion dollars in gold when they fuck up..........oh wait you mean you can't just make gold.

Isn't the federal reserve a part of the government? It is just a double check mechanism to ensure that the executive doesn't overspend, resulting in high inflation in the economy.

No the FED has a mandate to use interest rates to try to both keep inflation low while also trying to have the economy reach maximum employment.

Congress is the check on the executive branch's spending as they must pass a budget/spending bill that allows for money to be spent in the executive branch. 

Negative, the Federal Reserve is a non-government organization...

FTFY

Which has the enormous privilege, given by the government, of being able to print legal tender money. It would be inoffensive if it wasn't for that.

The federal reserve is part of the government. It does not have the same oversight as other agencies due to politics could easily get in the way of it doing a good job, however every single one of it's employees are government employees, and it's budget is part of the overall government budget.

if the federal reserve is part of the government that means the government has stocks that by law pay 6% dividend to the commercial banks.
not only that but you'll never be able to get any of these stocks because they cannot be sold or traded by law, you will be a slave forever.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm (http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm)

The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.

they say its not run for profit but for some reason it pays 6% dividends to the commercial banks who hold its stocks  ::)

i think this is also the place to quote the former director of the bank of England Josiah Stamp

Yes, when fucking stupid FIAT from hell gets buried, BTC is 5 million a piece, then at least i'll be free, I dont know about dumb anti BTC haters tho, they will probably cry with their dollars at night.

Freedom doesn't mean financial freedom alone.  :)

Are you talking about the preferred dividends that were issued by big banks as part of the TARP bailout? If so then most of these have been sold by the government (usually back to the issuing banks). I believe that the treasury actually owned these shares not the federal reserve (at the end of the day whoever owned them it was still the government).

But its a big part of being free by definition. No one likes to get told what to do, henceforth you unfortunately need to be rich to avoid being told what the fuck to do with your daily life and how you manage your time. So yes, we need 1 BTC to go really fucking high to save us all from the boredom of the daily life struggle, otherwise i'll just jump on a train in the next decade.

Problem is all companies in the west take subsidies in one form or another. And most people benefit directly or indirectly from the welfare system.

Freedom usually has nothing to do with money. It usually has to do more with people being able to think and speak their own opinion without the fear of being coerced by the government. 

Correct. The Arabs are rich with oil money. They aren't looked upon as a free society.

Compared to Iran maybe, USSA is slipping! New Zealand is #1 free English speaking country.

Freedom has a lot to do with money.

If freedom has a lot to do with private property and money is private property, so money must have a lot to do with freedom.

the United States is not just any country, its not the same as the rest of the world, being better than most of the world is not good enough, it must be in the lead.

this is the country where the constitution and the bill of rights were written, its the first country that was founded on the principles of personal freedom, in a time when monarchs ruled the world.
its been the beacon of personal freedom for 130 years.

I'm not American but to see the beacon of freedom deteriorate to fiat money and socialism and out of control government should be painful to every freedom lover.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Not unless you overthrow the parasites.

Its really up to the Americans if they want to be free or not.

Tick Tock Bitches.

Homeland Security take full delivery of their hollow point bullets in 2016...................

Not, under the wrath of the FIAT scam. We need to get out of that first.

Nope. It's all fucked now.

The middle eastern countries also have very concentrated wealth. There are few families who are in power who control 95%+ of the money in the country while the rest of the country enjoys a much lower standard of living.

We are free compared to other places in the world.

You suck Lenin dick compared to New Zealand, Honk Kong, Singapore etc, etc.

Motherfucker USA isn't even top ten.

Motherfucking up you game 'merica.

"No one is more hopelessly enslaved than those who mistakenly believes to be free."

(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

qft

The passing of the Patriot Act in 2001 enabled the U.S. corporate entities to seize freedom from it's citizens. Police brutality has gone up two-folds since Americans no longer stand up for their rights and freedoms. Police routinely detain and arrest citizens on false pretenses. Woman arrested after a police cruiser ran a stop sign and ran into her vehicle breaking her neck. Since she was unresponsive after the accident, the police officers involved at the scene suggested they arrest her for being "under the influence". http://fox13now.com/2014/08/07/sober-driver-arrested-for-dui-when-deputy-blows-through-stop-sign-hits-her/ (http://fox13now.com/2014/08/07/sober-driver-arrested-for-dui-when-deputy-blows-through-stop-sign-hits-her/)

Things like this happen on a daily basis and nothing is done. All that happens is the police officers involved gets a slap on the wrist and a free 4 weeks PAID vacation. With things like this going on, America will never truly be free again.

http://gizmodo.com/the-nsa-was-going-to-fine-yahoo-250k-a-day-if-it-didnt-1633677548

now tell me how the American government is any different than the Chinese.
at least in China they are open about the internet surveillance and its not a secret program.
Land of the slaves Home of the socialist, the founding fathers are rolling in their graves.

Actually, the Vice Chair of the Federal Reserve isn't even a 100% American citizen.

http://www.dailypaul.com/309852/dual-citizen-of-the-united-states-and-israel-former-bank-of-israel-head-gets-fed-vice-chair-nod

you understand China, every tyrant always want to control the people, and safeguard the rule at all costs.

Its every American's choice not to be free. Imprisoned by technology and money. What if, you leave everything behind and just leave a simple life. That way, you will be free.

If Americans want to free they can its all depend on them but their policy makers don't want a free America because its not in their favor

No, we are under attack. Police state is coming.

America is free. People living in it just makes it hard to live in a free country.

the people who have real freedom are those who live somewhere untouched from modern society

American is a police state, far from free.

Its absolutely true peoples which are not in touch of modern society still living good and free life in USA

no, i think it will never happen
america have a lot of debts

future will be hard for USA

"Money is the root of all evil."

Truer words where never uttered.

Insofar as the OP is concerned, yes I think it's possible.  Do I think it will happen in my lifetime?  Probably not.  So long as the USD is the world's reserve currency, the fat cat's will continue to enjoy providing their 'humanitarian aid' (i.e. food, water, guns, boots on the ground oh wait I mean 'advisers') and reaping the enormously fat profit's that war invariable brings the privileged few (lockheed martin, etc.).

That's actually a misquotation, here's the actual quote:


Money itself is not the root of evil; this precludes that evil did not exist prior to money.  It's essentially saying that greed is bad, not making a remark on money.

No, sadly. It all has to come crashing down.

Late stage capitalism, combined with mass fiat printing and a healthy dose of hubris isnt pretty.

If most of the 1% started to donate 5% of their income to improving education and technology/engineering research for the next generation, we might have a fighting chance.

Or if we didnt spend most of our tax money on a vast military that we have to create wars to use, and spend it on notoriously wasteful health care, and instead spent it on infrastructure and biotech/medical research.

We might have a shot.

But the reality is most Americans are totally self absorbed. Either through choosing ignorance (If you hate 'Merica, just leave) or people who care but get caught up in the day to day reality of having a full time job, a wife, 2 kids, mortgage... most Americans are so busy hustling to put food on the table and pay all the bills, they have no time or mental energy to seriously consider who to vote for or even more importantly how to change the entire democratic process which has been completely corrupted by lobbying.

So because most Americans are asleep at the wheel, willfully oblivious, or too busy with their own lives to actually understand these issues, let alone attempt to solve them, I think its going to get much worse before it gets better.

Rand Paul might be the last chance America has before it goes into the same meltdown every other socialist hell hole went.

if Rand Paul actually gets elected and actually behaves according to his and his father's economic ideology there might be a chance.
at the very least they must end the fed and stop fiat money.

there will be alot of pain as the economy has to completely restructure from the malinvestments of the last 40 years and all the misery will probably be blamed on him, he will have to move fast.

Why do you think it is appropriate for the most successful to be the only ones that need to give their money away to help society as a whole? Your proposal is socialism at it's worse. 

When someone wants to improve technology or to research something they will not donate the result they will try to profit off of the result as this is something they own and is not owned by society.

A law can only be enforced when the people chose to allow it to enforced.

Anyone can decide to not follow the law, and nothing can stop them from the choice to not follow a law.

What can be done is punishment for not following the law, after the fact. Punishment is only repercussion, and cannot stop someone from committing the crime before they do it.

That said, you can now be thrown into prison indefinitely for being a "suspected" terrorist. Still, that's really just the government breaking the law. The government, in this case, is just choosing to not be enforced by these laws.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6I5kLQr59bQ/U_qSKH12EwI/AAAAAAAAFD4/am2NpwPoT08/s1600/DSC00713.JPG

what would he have to say if he saw the American government as it is today:

spying not only on its own citizens but on the entire world.

forcing everyone to pay personal income taxes by using paper money only banks are allowed to create and lend with interest.

using tax money to bailout said banks when they fail.

pursuing its own citizens to tax them when they try to leave and work abroad.

putting future generations on the hook to pay back the debts their parents racked up.

This is not entirely accurate. What suspected terrorists are jailed for is for planning a terrorist attack on the US. It is generally something along the lines of conspiracy to commit terrorism.

I would also be surprised if many/any people would actually be opposed to this if it could be proven that people detained were people who were actually planning and hoping to carry out an act of terrorism

That is indeed the appeal to emotions card that is played. The problem is the suspected terrorist is detained on "proof" at the military/government side, but is only given a lawyer *after* the detainment on "strong suspicion," and the process of a lawyer acquisition is not quick.

There is the ideal, then there is the real. The real is people are detained first, and then given a lawyer months later, years later, or, in some cases, they just happen to die in prison.

Also, to speak to your "proof," most of the "terrorists" in, and who were in, Guantanamo Bay didn't wind up there by capture and proof from USA forces. They got there from middle eastern fighters. Why did these militant groups help us? Oh right, the massive bounties on any captured terrorists that were offered.

Human rights are quickly tossed out the window when we mix military with government. Indefinite imprisonment based on a suspicion is just plain evil. The word "Terrorism" has an incredibly wide meaning, and can apply to a very large range of acts including much of what the USA does. "Conspiracy to commit terrorism" can encompass quite a bit.

Heck, my posts here suggesting people can just simply choose to defy all laws could be construed as me conspiring with you all to be terrorists in the sense that we just don't obey any law of the USA.

You do have philanthropists among the wealthy....

Have you ever heard of habeas corpus? It is when someone that is detained petitions the court (or someone petitions the court on their behalf) to have the prisoner brought before a judge so the judge can evaluate if the prisoner is being lawfully detained. If they are not then the prisoner is let go. This process takes a very short amount of time (days at most). The supreme court has held that suspected terrorists have the right to request a writ of habeas corpus

Wasn't the Guantanamo Bay detention centre used to circumvent this?

America is free.. The government and the capitalist doesnt want us to be free.

American people need to wake up & start to question there govt then only we would see changes .

The supreme court ruled that detainees (or someone on their behalf) can file a writ of habeas corpus if they think they are being held illegally.