Bitcoin Forum

http://microcash.org/

Hmm perhaps this site needs an update?  ;D

Click on the "Learn more" button. If mortal shell can hold the awesomeness of understanding LemonpartyCoin it will transcend you to another level of existence. If not, you get a 404 error to prevent your mind from being snuffed out by the rainbow of incredibility.

LOL that's pretty funny. To learn more just CLICK here...... 404 ERROR...........LOL~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the "try solidcoin" link is dead.

It's so awesome the CH is trying to learn more about MicroCash but has the link u before he can teach anyone about it.

SO AWESOME!!!!!

In fact all the links except the forum appear to be broken. This is such a great project that it leads you to nowhere.

Sounds familiar.... ;D

CoinHunter seems to be based in Australia. Tokyo is near and has better internet links to the rest of the world.

Sadly Linode don't charge for incoming traffic or it could get interesting for CoinHunter what with the billions of visitors he will get.

Looks fine here guys.

Also aren't many of you who criticized many decisions in SolidCoin v2 happy that the developers listened to most of it and removed the stuff or found alternate solutions?

No trust accounts. No trust nodes. Do you guys always need something to whinge about or is it just a hobby?

The problem is, that despite some features being changed the main idea stays the same: A centralised blockchain with a HEAVY benefit to early adoptors as well as a pyramid scheme built in.
So basically what people keep criticising is not a certain technical thing anymore - it is the overall idea.

The block chain isn't centralized in MicroCash, you may need to refine what you mean by the comment.

A pyramid scheme built in sounds interesting... so Bitcoins pyramid block rewards (half the bitcoins block are worth 50 BTC, then half of that worth 25 BTC, then half of that worth 12.5BTC and on and on) aren't a pyramid but I guess having account fees go to every MicroCash user is a pyramid.....

There are way more "early adopters" in MicroCash than Bitcoin. How many people mined Bitcoins first 2 million coins? SolidCoin probably has 100-200x more investors at the same stage. So pretty much all your criticisms here apply to Bitcoin as well but amplified. Are you suggesting Bitcoin needs to improve its overall idea?

Claiming that there are more people at the top of the pyramid does not invalidate the argument that it is a pyramid. But we've already established that your logic skills are awful.


And continuing to make blatantly misleading statements is not going to help your case either.

"HEY GUISE U GET CHARGED 5 DECI-PENNIES A DAY BUT U MAKE 1 MILLI-PENNY TO MAKE UP 4 IT!*


* ASSUMING WE DONT BANKRUPT U"

Some accounts with low amounts of MicroCash will get low amounts or no amounts of the total fees paid back, who is denying that or misleading anyone? Every day every account takes a half cent (0.005) to cover the operational costs, whether the account is rich or poor this fee is taken. These fees are then redistributed back to every account based on how much MicroCash they have.

Nothing is stopping anyone from becoming a MicroCash holder and earning significant amounts of interest, they just have to sell products people will buy, offer services or invest themselves. People who have tiny amounts of MicroCash will pay an account fee just like someone with a lot of MicroCash will. If they increase the amount of MicroCash they have they'll go from paying a tiny fee to actually earning MicroCash, it's a nice reward system where people can escape paying fees.

As to how much reward is given back, it all depends on the total fees collected, which varies day to day. The more people use the network the more fees are collected and the more people are paid. Now users get indirectly paid for spreading the word about MicroCash to their friends and family.

Uhhh what about the people who have more than them? Especially those who got in before the reward went from 32 SC to 0.07 SC?


No they don't, they get paid for being in the top 50%. It's a ridiculously forced incentive to encourage adoption guised under the veil of "oh those resource-hogging microaccounts that everybody hates."

In case anyone was unsure, http://www.solidtools.net/addresses.php

Taking out the 12 trust nodes (why do two have transactions?) only the top 21 accounts (1.4m of 2.8m) will be making money off of this system. LUKS GUD

MicroCash is a pyramid scheme because it steals from the poor to give to the rich. Bitcoin doesn't steal from anyone, and the block rewards are payed from a fixed and limited supply to those who take the time and effort to secure the network. It is not a pyramid scheme.

Not to be a "hater" bro, your math is terrible.

You only need ~50 MicroCash to get interest (that is you're paid back more than your fee) given the number of accounts (about 100K). I'll show you the math.

100000 * 0.005 microcash (daily half cent fee) = 500 microcash total in fees

50 MicroCash as a percentage of the total MicroCash in existence is  50/2800000 as there are 2.8 million dollars in existence. This number is %0.0017 of all the MicroCash

We times the percentage of MicroCash an account has (0.000017) by the fees (500)  and we end up with 0.0085 being paid back. Now if you can remember, the fee is 0.005. Now let me show you one final thing.

If you have 50 MicroCash.  0.0085 daily interest - 0.005 daily fee = extra 0.0035 MicroCash per day

So if you have 50 MicroCash, and not even counting transaction fees which are also given fairly to each account, you would get an extra 0.0035 MicroCash per day. No fee, extra money, for a relatively small amount of MicroCash. Now I hope when you design encoin you do a better job with the math. Make sure you carry the decimal.

Ok you think bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, that's fine. But are you denying the block reward for bitcoin cuts in half over time to eventually reach a low of 0? Doesn't this mean if you mine at 50 BTC per block you are getting more than the guys you bring in to Bitcoin when it's 0 per block? Unless my math fails me, 50 is greater than 0. So every time a Bitcoin user educates his friends and family about Bitcoin, he is doing so under the guise that soon there will be less Bitcoin made, benefiting the early adopter who was mining at 50 bitcoins a block.

Again, unless my math fails me it seems like the people who get in earlier in Bitcoin make more coins, and by encouraging more people in, those new people make less coins giving greater value to the first coins.....

Of course Bitcoin isn't a pyramid scheme, I was just kidding around there friend. If anything is a pyramid scheme it's MicroCash, where fees are equally distributed back to the chain depending on the amount of MicroCash in them. If anything screams pyramid to me, it's a blockchain where fees are redistributed proportionally to the amount of MicroCash you have. Just because Bitcoins block values look like this


Does not mean we can liberally use the word pyramid around Bitcoin. Thanks for clearing it up for us.

Your math failed to teach you about addition. Miners receive transaction fees in addition to the block reward.

Irrelevant. He mines 50 bitcoins a block whether he gets other people involved or not, because the block reward isn't stolen from other users.

Yup, your math fails you again. Encouraging new people in has no effect whatsoever on the block reward.

There you have it folks, he admits the whole thing's a pyramid scheme. Can we go now?

Glad to be of service. ;D

Yeah true, shoulda stuck to the bottom 50% paying the top 50% like I said to you before, which it is, but it ain't gonna mean much to anybody but the top few.


Now funny thing about that 100,000 number. It's actually 86k so let's go from there. 30k accounts will be gone in the first day. http://www.solidtools.net/addresses.php?page=1132
Another 40k or so more will be gone in the first three weeks. http://www.solidtools.net/addresses.php?page=278
13k * 0.005 = 65 microcash total in fees. Which means in three weeks you'll need ~215 coins to break even. That's the top 600. 600/13,000 = 4.5%. 95.5% paying the 4.5%. (and the top 12 get the majority of that, my bad)

Hey look. It is Coinhunter here to flog his latest scheme.
We were right about the first one even though Coinhunter said we were all just trolls.
We were right about the second one even though Coinhunter said we were all just trolls.
We are right about the third one, hey look Coinhunter is calling us a bunch of trolls.
The wheels of the shortbus go round and round...

 :o

That is exactly what Bitcoin does, and has done since the very first day it was released more than 3 years ago. There have been absolutely zero changes to the block reward. It is that trust that has been built over time that makes Bitcoin successful.

Answer this: How many times has SolidCoin changed the reward scheme?

Pyramid scheme, bait-and-switch, pump-and-dump, I not sure which scam term is most accurate of SolidCoin, but make no mistake, SolidCoin is very much a scam designed to benefit early adapters at the expense of later adopters.

Without the CPF, the tyrant nodes, and the shrinking reward for mined blocks. SoiledCoin would not be a pyramid scheme. It would just be a craptastic knockoff of Bitcoin.

You have a good point Syke in regards to the amount of times SolidCoin has changed. Change is both a good and bad thing, SolidCoin changed a lot so now that they've got something they think they can work with they've decided to create a new brand to represent it. The next version will be very hard to do any changes to, a lot like Bitcoin so we should see some stability in regards to chain features.

The fact Bitcoin hasn't changed much at all since 2009 is good like you said, but it's also bad. There are compromises made and everyone supporting Bitcoin is supporting a single persons choices he made in 2008-2009. Most of us already know many of those decisions haven't stood the test of time, but Bitcoin still sticks to its guns and people can trust that more than something that changes a lot like SolidCoin. However please don't confuse the fact Bitcoin hasn't changed to mean it's perfect or that it's reward system isn't shaped to favor early adopters, these are facts, no one can dispute them. Whether or not the decision to stick to these things will favor Bitcoin we have to wait and see, I guess when the reward cuts in half we will see how new people handle the fact they aren't getting 50 BTC per block anymore. :)

+1... Need we say more. Multiple operators of a single account is shady in itself.

Keep away from AssCoin = ScamCoin = ShitCoin = SolidShit = SoiledShit = RealSolidShit = CoinShitHuner = Solidcoin = MicroRASH!!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

How many times do I have to tell you people... SolidCoin is not ScamCoin and neither is MicroCash.

ScamCoin is ScamCoin!!

 :-\ scamcoin=solidcoin=microcash

That's your problem you DONT have to tell us. We don't care what you say. We are calling it how we have seen it from day one when CH/RS came on the scene. It's a bunch of BS.

Can you elaborate on the meaning of "operational costs", given that in a P2P currency, every participant shares the costs (basically just bandwidth, and my own at that) equally already?  And, where exactly will this half cent per day go - not in the abstract sense, but in the "0.005MC transferred from account ABC to account XYZ" sense - To what does that XYZ refer?

(And guys, c'mon, let him actually answer instead of mocking him - The petty, nonstop bickering really sucks most of the fun out of all this)

For about 9 months we have let these fools explain their SOILEDSHITCOIN and its a bunch of bull....

What matter what explanation Coinhunter gives at this point? It will change as soon as it suits Coinhunter to do so.
At this point, Rapecash is only an idea.
Wait for the source code and the license terms. Examine them. Then decide.

You need to stop talking for the company and hire a PR guy.  Don't make the same mistake twice.

Didn't you know. There are multiple people that use the COINHUNTER account. Perhaps he has hired someone to pose as him yet he is still failing despite that.

LOL

He probably can't tell that he is making a mistake. The Coinhunter account most likely has 2/3rds of this forum on ignore turning every thread into a miniature echo chamber for SoiledCoin groupies (both of them). That is the problem with pruning criticism via username, eventually you only get what you want to hear.

This also makes for a poor foundation for the discussion of a currencies strengths and weaknesses.

Agreed.

That is a very funny thought.

(login to bitcointalk.org as SOILEDHISPANTS)
(HIT THE ULTIMATE IGNORE BUTTON)
(LIVE LIKE A KING IN ALL YOUR EGO AND SELF_GLORIFICATION)



LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just one totally different thought about the naming of the new "Crypto""currency":

So... maybe RS wasnt as retarded when naming his new chain as we thought.. Basically we all pay in ONE BITCOIN or ONE LITECOIN or even ONE SOLIDCOIN.
Looking at the past months of unsuccesful economical changes in Solidcoin people can only send arround 0.00x Solidcoins - due to the fact that almost all coins are distributed throughout some major investors and miners dont earn shit.
So.. for the first time i actually believe that Realsolid had a good idea! He finally understood that everyone is just sending extremely small amounts of coins when using chain and hence didnt introduce centislc or millislc - he went right at the point at which people will spend this: MICROSLC. Unfortunately Microslc might be mistakingly refering to and blockchain older than 3 months and hence already outdated. Therefore he introduced a revolutionary new name: CASH! Adding Micro to it was finally the option to make it easier for people to use it..

So Microcash is not a bone-dead stupid reference to Microsoft and therefore yet another insight into RealSolids egomanic mind.. no Microcash is saving TIME for people since it is just a substitute for microSolidcoin (1x10^-6 Solidcoins)
So instead of saying "I send you Oh point zero zero zero zero zero zero five two Solidcoins" they can refer to it now as "I send you Oh point five two Microcash". Try it yourself - you will save at least a few seconds. Keyboards will also live longer since you type less using the new nomenclature.. and of course it will add some good feeling for Miners. When they see their payouts they can feel like "Man, i did good." - as long as they dont look at the 12mil SLC accounts of other people.. The amount of zeroes before the decimal point would be too horrific to just let them pass... but since these coins are on just a hand full of accounts it wont be too often seeable..


So thanks to his Führermajesty RealSolid for yet another great idea that will revelutionise the crypto currency realm! First you introduced centralisation into distributed applications, then you added taxes to a feeless system and we still remember your closed open sourceness! So here we have it - no longer juggling with large numbers when you can just say its real name! When will we see him reinventing addresses? I think a 8 bit binary should soon be enough to reference all possible and foreseeable accounts of microcashs future.. One address for every user...

You, uh, still haven't answered my question about the nature of those fees and where they go on the short term.  You made a vague allusion to "operational costs", of which none exist that the entire network doesn't already share equally, no central taxing authority required.



Right, it doesn't - Because a "pyramid scheme" refers to a very specific, well-defined type of scam, rather than to your entry in the weekly bad-ASCII-art competition.

Bad enough we need to explain this over and over and over to the general public, without members of our own community deliberately misusing such terms to (attempt to) score political points.

Sure he did:
See? The fees get paid to the people with the most money, ie, the developers and early adopters, while the late adopters lose all their money. What, you thought he was kidding when he said it was a pyramid scheme? ::)

Operational costs are computer capital, memory usage, cpu usage, network usage and disk space usage. Nearly everyone around the world sets a price for these features (ie it's very difficult to find reliable hosting that is free). Because you can now securely use MicroCash without becoming a node you are essentially relying on the hundreds/thousands of computers around the world to do it for you. By putting a fee on this resource we can basically control to some extent the number of useless accounts created (that clog the nodes), prevent and cleanup spam and also now offer small amounts of interest back to the chain proportionally.

If anyone thinks half a cent per day is expensive then they shouldn't use MicroCash, use something that sets no price on something which actually costs something if they can, why not? I think by valuing something which costs something MicroCash can provide a better infrastructure and new services on top of it.

All fees are collected, account and transaction fees, and instead of giving them to the people who are rich in hardware (miners) they give it back to all MicroCash account holders proportionally based on the amount of MicroCash they have. Miners already get a lot, they are the only ones who can create new currency. So it's a different system, some say a better system as it rewards everyone invested in the currency vs only a few (the miners) for getting new users involved and doing more economic activity. As transactions increase (economic activity) everyone in the chain benefits.

If there are enough transactions per day then they will cancel out the account fee and everyone will earn "interest".

Fees get paid back proportionally to each account. So if you have 1% of the MicroCash (28000) you get 1% of daily fees (account and transaction). So the more MicroCash you have the higher the percentage of the fees you get. It doesn't necessarily reward early adopters, it rewards people who have MicroCash. I'd say anyone who has SolidCoin now or will mine MicroCash is still an early adopter as there are only around 1000 users of SolidCoin right now. Many people say if you're involved in Bitcoin right now you're an early adopter.

When MicroCash starts you will need around 50 MicroCash dollars to get interest. This doesn't include transaction fees, the more transactions there are the less MicroCash you need to get interest as all fees are collected up and distributed proportionally.

Basically to use MicroCash you have a fixed daily cost of $0.005 per account (or half a cent). Users will still get some reward back for even a small amount of MicroCash, so their daily cost will be less than 0.005 , completely depends on how much MCD they have. An example, if you had 1 MCD in an account you would get paid 0.0002 for that amount, so your daily fee is essentially 0.005 - 0.0002 .

If there are 2000 transactions a day , that is an extra ~15 MCD to be distributed to all accounts as well as all the account fees.

I have kind of a hard time believing that people in your inner circle like Ahimoth would get behind an economic scheme with such a design.

MicroCash: Taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

At this point Microcash is probably just a wrapper for malware. Coinhunter will charge up some stolen credit cards and call it a day.

Okay, let me make sure I have this right - As a potential participant in the MicroCash system, I have to pay for my computer capital, memory usage, cpu usage, network usage, and disk space usage - And MicroCash promises to tax me for this, so it can give it to others using the same (or potentially lower, as I'll address in a minute) level of resources but who happen to have a higher MSB set in their account balances?

I sincerely hope I have that very, very wrong, and you've left out something about these taxes funding a built-in exchange, or secure online wallet backups, or hell, even paying 3rd-party dev(s) and auditor(s) to improve and validate the system.



Okay, perhaps you've just touched on our failure to communicate here - How exactly does one use MicroCash without becoming a node?



The possible account-space for a modern cryptosystem comfortably exceeds the number of atoms in the universe by a factor of more than a google.  Given that they don't count as a scarce resource, that inactive accounts have no effect on either network or storage, and that disposable one-time-use accounts provide one of the bigger selling points of a cryptocurrency - What does this first point matter?

As for "cleanup spam", this tax seems like a bitdust attack built right into the system itself - How does MicroCash plan to get around the resulting problem of massive block fragmentation, and how does causing such fragmentation prevent the ensuing cleanup?  Or does the protocol have a significant enough change from existing BitCoin clones that "dust" no longer presents a problem (and if so, why do we need to pay to avoid it)?



Again, what infrastructure?  We (the users of the currency) provide all the necessary infrastructure, all the end-point computing resources, the entire raison-d'etre for any currency.  I don't see how charging us for our own contributions makes the network in any way "better".



But on day-1, only the large existing SolidCoin holders will have a balance on which to draw interest; this tax effectively gives them a reason not to spend their MicroCash, as they can continue to receive income without doing anything (including contributing "computer capital, memory usage, cpu usage, network usage and disk space usage" to the network).  They can just log in once and go offline forever, and rake it in over time.  How does that encourage new users of the system, to know that they get to pay a tax to others who can effectively retire on their now-idle "investment" capital?

MC is apparently heavily promoting a lite client. But the funny thing is, you don't get paid for having a full node, you just get paid for having a lot of coins. Since there is not necessarily any future correlation (I will admit there is a current one since like 10 people use SC), you are just getting paid by having coins.


They are switching to an account ledger rather than a transaction ledger as described in various places around the forums here. RS claimed on his forums that "he just thought it up." This means that accounts use up about 1/4th the space of a bitcoin transaction, and there is only 1 balance per address, so there is a significant reduction in the amount of data required to store any given address. This is somehow reasoning for charging a daily fee (in reality, it allows for the charging of a daily fee, so the RS group decided to take advantage of that).


Yeah I don't follow his logic at all there either.


God exists because the Bible tells me so.

Interesting.

If I understand correctly, if an address has a greater-than-average amount of currency then it will get interest.

Paid for by all the accounts with a less-than-average amount of currency.

So there's an incentive for everybody to (try to) be above the average. That seems like a recipe for a lot of disappointed people, especially since a graph of size-of-account will have a long tail with of lots of little accounts.

Making a half-thought-out-prediction, I'd say the end result would likely be one big centralized account controlled by the largest exchange with over 50% of the currency in it, because there would be a natural incentive to store your money in the biggest account so you get the most interest...

Yeah and thus making this whole principle worthless if everyone puts their MC "investment" into one exchange because then there will be no interest because there will likely be only one account.

LOL  ;D

Could be that exchange will stop accepting coins at let´s say 53,67%. Where the 3,67 depends on the size and number of other larger accounts, of cause. ... uhm why? The 3,67 is reducing profit but increasing safety.

The question is basically how many parachutes to grab. Could be it´s wise to take none and stay away from that plane in first place.

So uhh..  physical coins such as the Casascius coins are a no-go for this microcash thing eh?

Of course not. You just have to include the date of issue as well as the depreciation rate with the denomination, eg:

ONE MicroCash Dollar
minus 0.5 cents per day since 1 June 2012
This MicroCash Coin will be worthless on 18 December 2012
Spend it quickly!

;D

I'm wondering what the hell an 'account' is in the microcash context.
Does this mean one needs to have a defragged wallet with all coins controlled by a single private key in order to stop the smaller inputs from being whittled away to nothing?

Not that bitcoin is ideal for microtransactions  - but so far it sounds like microcash is very microtransaction unfriendly...  and heavily into taxing the poor.

Looks like both the 'micro' and 'cash' parts are misnomers.  wow.. and I thought soiledcoin was as tragically comical as it could get!

from the SCT board:


my response:


of course he did not respond to that part

it really is batshit retarded and is just another attempt to get the revenue stream going for RS and his cohorts

the "coin protection fund" has 5% of the total coins in existence (save the trust accounts) so it will be earning the vast majority of this microfee interest on top of it all. and there is no date of when the CPF will end or any direction for it either.

is microcash coming out?

It already did. It came out of RealSolid's ass.    :D

I guess for transfers and mining we're awaiting decontamination then