Bitcoin Forum

Just stop it. People, this is madness. There nothing worth buying, and by buying a dream you allow these companies to give BTC a bad name.

If you arent paying the foundry to fabricate the wafers and putting chips on boards yourself, THERE IS NO PROFIT IN BITCOIN MINING.

Its just smoke and mirrors, please shut off that greedy lizard brain for one moment and think about how many companies sell items that are worth more than their purchase price outside of the bitcoin world just by plugging them into the wall/internet and hitting a button.

Thats right, zero. Its a great con, people want to believe in easy money, and theres a sucker born every minute. 

BUMP this if you have lost BTC/fiat trying to mine, or have a preorder which wont ever ROI if you ever even receive it. 

Sticky please :)

TU and repped and bumped and thanked and whatever else one can do on a forum

Understood- the current state of mining does not provide a satisfactory return.
But what happens IF btc spikes to 1200us? Then everyone who bought in will look like a genius.
And then the whole cycle will start up again.

^this!!!

SHUT IT DOWN REPTILIAN BRAINS!   8)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yyAVXVXY2is/T0ph_v-P_CI/AAAAAAAA6go/xk1gHDJWBYg/s1600/tumblr_lxzadpBz0V1qagsdfo1_500.jpg

It really is all about greed, because if everyone did the math and homework, they'd see there's no shot in hell at mining for profit.

YES!!! Invest in tin foil hats. They will be far more investment worthy!!!

No.

Spend 5k on preorder which ships in Dec. ( maybe ) and never roi or buy 13 btc now.... hmmm... remember math?

I can name one; solar panels. You plug them in, hit a button and the power company uses their network connected meter to calculate how much they owe you. Eventually you'll ROI.

I made money mining, but it was shit  "OK" money and I'm not mining now.

#MiningSucks

Nope. No mining necessary.

If you believe BTC will spike to $1200, then buy it now at $376.76. No need to risk hardware purchases or electricity costs.

Hasn't the myth of mixing currency speculation (i.e. wishful thinking) and mining been so thoroughly debunked that it's beyond reasonable doubt?

+++1 Home mining is dead.  Sorry folks.

I am not really into bitcoin mining but its nice to know this informations

Funny, I can't remember the thread, but I remember this being discussed earlier.

Bitcoin often gets accused of being a Ponzi scheme, which I don't believe is true.

However, Bitcoin mining is looking more and more like it all the time... :(

People wont stop till the price hits around $100. Then shortly after diff will come crashing down. Then there will once again be a huge demand in hardware =O ... its a cycle that happens over and over.
Also people are stupid, you know like those who own apple products.. thats kinda like foolish mining hardware purchases(at a huge loss mind you) that the 'masses' are doing now.

The other thing people dont realize is that buying BTC directly rather than mining it... helps its market price go up.
Buying mining hardware then cashing out only fucking puts downwards pressure on the price, but like I said above....once it crosses a certain lower price point, its great for all miners because of the decreased diff that follows =)

The price Bitcoin pays for securing its network and processing transactions is that of downward pressure.

Yes mining sucks sent me your miners I pay shipping

well stop buying hardward for some time will not be a bad idea always on NEW hardware.

But I think bitmain drove to this with the new S4 not so many buyers

If people stop mining, bitcoin is dead. You should be thanking the miners for keeping the network running.
Are you trying to kill Bitcoin?

Uh,no it won't be dead...FAR from it,your forgetting our "corporate mining farms".They will endure & control the network,VERY soon  ;)

I think we can return to the cpu mining ... the asic hardware  have ruined everything. What do you think guys ?








Ps:it is only my suggestion...

No. Just no.

Commercial mining with lowest power and hardware costs is where this war will be waged. Eventually mining will be concentrated in a few companies hands even if the BTC price implodes back $1.

You suggesting Bitcoin 3.0 CPU style ???  :D

Let me get my 12 old quad core intel PC's back out of storage!!!!!!!!!  ;D

Bitcoin is not more decentralized :P ...  so What is the real solution ? We cannot return to the cpu mining so .. what we can do ?

Nothing.

Altcoin of your choice is?

Mining is marginally profitable because asics are too expensive. Can we have like opensourced asics? Right down to chip designs, pcbs, layout, so anyone can make their own asic at a reasonably low cost. Home miners globally will be able to complete with mining farms and we have a more decentralised network.

I agree with this guy on where BTC is going: http://youtu.be/_-TLA3j-ic4

(Basically: the PoW Bitcoin algorithm is going to [have to] change into an delegated PoW algorithm [like BitSharesX]...)

Yeah, change it to Proof of Shit, because I plan on buying a lot of Shit.

Nope.

You need millions to save millions.

You are never going to get enough people to agree to work on an open source ASIC that can compete with current fabricators. That ship sailed.

Why mine? When you can own BTC without the hassle and overhead?

That is where we are now.

Choose an ALT and get busy or buy BTC and hold.

Nice idea, but  it's totally impractical.

Home miners could compete still with the mining farms if only they'd choose the right companies to do business with, namely:

- Ones that don't discount for bulk sales

- Ones that actually want to keep their customers and view them as their primary income source, not mining

- Ones that will reinvest profits to make better products to keep their customers profitable.

- Ones that design mining system that can be easily upgraded to keep customers competitive at minimum cost.

- Ones that are content with a modest profit margin.

The free market isn't kind to small players.
But, small players are very important to the market.

I've been involved in mining at 3 different times since 2012.
I have 3 principles for entering and exiting mining.

1) +ROI according to my magical spreadsheet
2) Other areas of investment are not moving (stagnant) or less profitable.
3) Hardware is available and manufacturers are battling for price competitiveness.

Huh?

That really doesn't describe any of them.

Given there is always discounts on bulk orders. Try it and see. ALWAYS.

There are a few that do want to keep customers but not mine but there are only what 1 or 2 that do that.

Again 1 or 2 maybe.

Upgrade? Nothing right now is worth upgrading unless you can pop chips into a generic socket... ooops you can't. Not yet anyhow.

LOL Modest profits? Most have been doing well but the market has changed from home market to massive farms so again economy of scale is first priority. The more you make the cheaper it is. Simple.

---

Mining will continue to concentrate in fewer and fewer hands in places where cost of production and price of electricity is best. At this point Eastern Europe? USA? China?

Then stop buying hardware and start cloud mining for better deals!  If you can't beat them, join them  :)

Or just stop mining completely if you want to make guaranteed profit, go back to work and enjoy your risk free life!
Do you still see people complaining why we use the internet instead of the fax? Mining is evolving and you have to adjust with it or you'll end up falling behind.

I think this is why PoC (proof of capacity) is becoming so big.  When the cost of mining is the price of a few cpu fans running profitability is so easy.

Could you give an example of an BTC cloud mining offer that you consider a good deal?

Yes, there are some that say they don't (or won't) mine but the minute you start discounting for bulk sales, that's effectively what you are doing by proxy, the difference is that the supplier gets his profit up front from the bulk buyer rather than having to mine themselves (Don't you think it's peculiar why most rig suppliers ell in batches? It makes no commercial sense unless there are other factors at work)

You're also cheating your customers that pay full price - they provide larger margins and will also get hurt by higher hash rates.

BTC cloud mining? no, I use LTC cloud mining myself and it is extremely profitable at LTCgear, they are selling 160Mhash for $850 if you pay in BTC and use the coupon code in my sig.

I have switched to scrypt mining about 4 months ago so I no longer keep track of all the SHA-256 mining deals.
Not trying to sell LTCgear but you could set your payout in BTC, the current ROI is 5-6 weeks there including the expected difficulty adjustments.

Maybe someone else on this forum could provide some info on SHA-56 cloud mining deals and which is currently the best.

You are coming from a mining-for-profit viewpoint, and you are absolutely right. Buy and hold is a good strategy, don't need to mine.

I am looking at the integrity of the hashing network, where decentralised home miners can put a check on centralised farms. My point is, we do  need reasonably cheap powerful home miners to keep the hashing network healthy.

+1

Agreed. If you could do something where 1 billion people get a mining dongle and secured the network. Sure sign me up!

THNX!

Something like a cryptocurrency with a delegated PoW algorithm [like BitSharesX] for instance... ???

And I will buy some mining hardware once everyone stop.. Muhahha...

I'm gunna poke a stick into this beehive and run  :D

If you are a miner at any scale, like most jobs, you must do it better and cheaper than anyone else doing your same job if you want to come out on top. There is no system in the world that guarantees everyone will be a winner.

If its just a spike then it means nothing, but if BTC rises to $1200 via growth of the BTC economy, which means a general rise in price, then the big mining companies/manufacturers turned miners who have cheap power and financial resources will triple the size of their operations.

The answer is the same if BTC goes to $30,000, large manufacturers turned miners will multiply their facilities by 100 x to match, and the difficulty will follow as it always has done so.

There are big players now running this game, its over for those that do not have the same power rates as the big players do.

True, BTC is a big players game.

Waiting while those have to stop, because of cost/revenue makes BTC again for the people.

The developers should have put a limit of 10 BTC per month per btc address, per IP and per userID on the netwrork. 90% of those companies would seek another venture.. Then, it was really for the masses..

Nonsense, bitcoin mining has never been for the "masses".

If you stop buying mining asics... the price will decrease .. 0.3 / 0.4 usd per ghs.. or maybe lower.

BTC mining can be profitable if someone of manufacturers will offer powerful hardware but with really good price.  :) In fact, there is no such hardware at the moment.
To say truth, I would be happy much more if there will be powerful altcoin miners.

It's hard to be lower than their costs.
If it's difficult to sell, they prefer to mine themself.

Let see this circle:


1.let say ASIC creating chip
2.same asic creating miner
3.announcing miner(for preorder) or just to create HYIP
4.mining with miner as much as possible
5.once mining is barely profitable or near to ROI sale is announced
6.miner delivered start same life like in point 4.
7.end user loosing btc and see mining is not profitable in small scale.

And again new version of miner is announce and circle closed.

Mining at home is dead as hell. All btc was stolen for preorders or will be mined before miner will reach end user.

this thread is silly. mining can be profitable for certain people, but not everyone.

I started mining this time last year with a (~15BTC, paid in usd) bitfury, and shortly after Batch 1 (4.25) and Batch 2 (4.75) Antminer S1 products. They helped raise the capital to continue expansion.

now I have a small farm where the $2000 costs of wiring in 20kW, power supplies, PDUs, shelving, and power costs have been paid for entirely by the resale of hardware to $CAD, and I am currently running 8TH with roughly 20/24BTC from the initial hardware costs held in savings wallets.

at the current BTC prices and hardware prices though, it would be difficult for most equiment to return a profit unless your costs (power, space, and personal time) are under $0.10/kwh, unless you make some fairly liberal calculations about future BTC value and difficulty increases.

IMO difficulty is slowing down (remember the 8% and 3% only a few weeks ago), and with the low prices I think we could see a relative plateau very soon, with only 4-8%/jump until prices increase

So.. it really seems like altcoins is the best option for those who want to try (or continue) mining at home. And looks like it can be really profitable with high hashing power in hands ("for certain people", like klondike_bar said).

If Bitcoin mining doesn't exist then Bitcoin will not be so valuable as it will be exclusive to a small amount of people it would be probably stable at the current price.

Mining is not dead... I started with damn decent hash speeds when difficulty was 7 Billion... But now we HAVE entered the era of industrialized mining.

drop your 20 Peta hash in the arctic circle and pay peanuts for electricity... what is that you say? FEELS HOT INSIDE? It's cool bro open a fuckin window and... BOOM instant cooling lol

The only good news is a lot of companies are greedy so at least there will be competition in the Industrialized mining phase and no centralization due to the greed.

If people stop mining, bitcoin is dead.

This is accurate. If anyone has the mistaken illusion that home mining is possible at scale, then they are deluded. That said, home mining is a GREAT way to get started. Proof of concept and learning. From there though you MUST have a plan to scale your setup out into larger environments. Its the only way you can ever hope to make any kind of money mining. Industrial mines are ultimatly where things are going. This is not for the lazy or easy money types. It requires work.

 ::) I can't stop!

Wrong, only if everyone in the whole world stop mining then bitcoin is dead...

its not profitable to buy mining hardwares this days to mine bitcoins  :-\

stop buying mining hardware = every mining hardware will die....

Great logic, you must be genius  ::)

OP, why would i stop buying mining hardware MANG?

I mean yo, i paid for this super computer box and i can print money forever yo. That is the SHIT yo no wut am sayin?

Its like free money homie. PEACE OUT YO

As it is right now he is absolutely correct in the sense that mining at the current and projected daily rates will not pay off, which is probably why there are SO MANY people trying to sell the S2's on ebay for a fifth of what they originally sold for, I do have a confession to make though- I currently don't have to pay for electric so there is no loss on that aspect for me personally and I got mine on ebay for $400/shipped and then did a chargeback so I technically got the equipment for free as well. I know what I did is despicable but I made out alright with it so far and the seller didn't seem to care much... Even at 1000.00GH/s, I only manage to mine roughly 0.02-0.03 btc daily so at the current rate it's about $8.00-$10.00 in a 24 hour period, it's worth it for ME because the electric is free, and the equipment was essentially free for me as well so I have been making money with it since I got it but for the average user the electricity costs will far outweigh what you can mine, even on a large scale operation with one exception, if the value of even 1 btc rises from the current avg of $370 up to say 10,000 in one day then you will make an enormous amount of money off one btc, and it's happened in the past where 1 btc skyrocketed from around $250 to $1000 in a day then steadily declined over the next few days and it's been forcasted from a btc enthusiast that one day the btc will skyrocket at some point in the next couple of years so it's a good assumption to save the btc you have mined and wait for the price to at the very least double, then payout or buy whatever it is you want, so in some aspects as the way things are currently it is not economically feasible for most people but there is the off chance that when the right time comes and one btc triples in value overnight that expensive gear will have more than paid itself off. So it's a game of chance really for people that haven't purchased mining equipment yet. And with the newly released S4 for like $3,000.00+, you would be better off getting 2 x S2's for $500 each on ebay and still mine the same amount as 1 S4, to me that price point just doesn't make sense just because it's new. 1 S4 mines @ 2TH/s, and the S2 mines @ 1TH/s so it makes more economical sense to buy 2 S2's IF you plan on mining, which right now really will put you in the hole money wise.

Go and "buy" more on ebay man, get like 10 more

I wish he'd buy some punctuation.

He cant do charge back on those since they're digital,  ;D

The only way that home mining is possible to be profitable is if someone were to buy miners on the secondary market from people who are in need of immediate money and are willing to sell at a discount.

It would also likely be necessary to buy in places where the temperature tends to be hot and the cost of electricity is relatively high, and to move them to places where the temperature tends to be lower and the cost of electricity would be lower. This would generally allow for someone to buy at somewhat lower prices

It is still profitable and Bitcoin is not the only one to mine - there are other altcoins. ;)

well not at my kwh rate of 15c/kwh......the ave rate of the usa by the way....the puppy don't fly ...
some other places nw usa with hydro elec at 5c/kwh maybe

the plan is simple get a 2TH mining rig , step in to the time machine go back to 2009, start mining & buy btc for 30cent,
done oh! and remember to start selling from 800ish and above   8)


http://www.timemachineforsale.com/photos.html (http://www.timemachineforsale.com/photos.html)

I think you mean paragraphs?

Plenty of punctuation present.

Possibly he could have put in some point form and shortened the length of this text wall.

He is right on the money otherwise. Let me break it down.

Focus: Mining at the current and projected daily rates will not pay off.

Response: S2s being dumped for a fifth of what they originally sold for.

Situation: Background as to why he has done alright including questionable scam like activity on eBay on a charge-back and kept the miner etc blah blah and free electricity blah blah blah and he basically came out on top with free miner and zero running costs blah blah blah look at me I am cool right.

Conclusion: Find the best deal you can, if you are new miner, go on eBay get some S2s dirt cheap and get some free electricity but even then for the most part you would just be putting yourself in the hole. Bottom line no money to be made especially when I am scamming people out of their S2s.

Well, I invest in 4 S3+ total 1080€ more 180€ for 2 PSU's. It's been almost 1 month since i i've turned them on.

The main reasons i still didn't turn them off:

1st- I made a investment, now i have to take the risk of keeping them turned on if i want to have a chance of making ROI (this is only depending on BTC value speculation);

2nd- I don´t pay the electricity bill.

3rd- The 4 S3+ were installed in a very cold and large office, and i can tell that the temperature maybe raised about 6/7 ºC or more and now we don't need the 2000W AC to be turned on in the cold winter, and even the AC would't heat the hole office and only see the temperature difference after 30/40 min after turning the AC. Now we have a nice ambient temperature in the room without the AC.

4th- I like when new people get in the office and ask me for what are the "machines" for, and i say "They are computers that make money" XDD.

5th- Cause i believe(or want to believe) that mining and cryptcurrency will grow in a near future.

This, mine some of them there altcoins. Jeebus knows there are enough of the damned things...

Personally I buy my hardware cheap and run it on cheap power. For me I have ROI'd on 2 S1's and now have 2 S3's. I should ROI on those in about 2-3 months.

Mining can work but you need free or next to free power and you need to buy hardware 2nd hand from miners who have given up, spent to much and desperate to get rid or have mined something and ok with selling at a loss.

New hardware is a mugs game, i don't know how anyone could ROI on new hardware costs.

Thread title gave me a good laugh. Of course you are right but the lizard brain won't listen. Do you think a degenerate gambler has never heard that the house has them in the long run? The history of the American railroads is one of endless cons and swindles, but the railroads were built. At the end of the day, capital is going to flow into bitcoin from people who will never see a return, so I guess what I am telling you is to not worry and let fools be fooled.

Altcoin mining is a losing game. The price of alts will decline over time and as a result the EV of altcoin mining will decline over time at a greater rate then the EV of mining bitcoin (as altcoins will have their difficulty increase just as bitcoin will)