Bitcoin Forum

What are the pros/cons of making an equivalent long term investment in both BitCoin and Visa stock ??
Am I wrong to think that they are essentially equivalent ( both are low cost transaction networks )
other than the fact that Visa pays a small but growing dividend ??


Triff ..

Bitcoin has so much room for growth, the sky is the limit.

Visa is nearly at it's full potential, what can they do different from what they already do? Not much.

From an investor point of view, I will without a doubt choose to have Bitcoin as long term investment.

Bitcoin don't evaporate over the time
... all other asset, yes (even gold is tax and bank "regulate"/stealing process).

OfThey are completely different networks. Bitcoin, as we know, is decentralized and anonymous network and Visa is opposite. How come they are the same? And Bitcoin is free or low cost (only when the transaction is less than 0.1BTC,  0.0001 fee is compulsory.) Using VISA's network is expensive comparing to using bitcoin.

The main advantage of investing VISA stock is safe and continually receiving dividends. It is nearly impossible for you to have a loss from the investment. But investing bitcoin is too risky due to the volatile price. Can you stand the loss of 10%, even 20% from invested capital in bitcoin or bitcoin related startups? Before you make any decision, you'd better gauge your risk tolerance level!

My initial enthusiasm for the potential of BitCoin became tempered when
I realized that the proliferation of altcoins ( of dubious utility ) ment that there
was absolutely no barrier to entry in this space ( blockchain based transaction networks )..
Additionally, the fact that the software ( or nearly everything ) is open sourced tells me that
any reasonably funded entity can co-opt this technology ( including Visa, MasterCard etc )
for their own purposes at any time if/when blockchain technology becomes ubiquitous or proves
superior ( cost ) to the existing transaction networks ..

BitCoin may carve a niche for itself as a digital store of value ( digital gold ?? ) or as
a trading vehicle ( due to volatility ) or as an alternative currency ..

 

These two proposals have very different risk/reward relationships. Visa on one hand is already an established corporation that gives current income via dividends to their shareholders, and is unlikely not going to go away in any living person's investment horizon.

Bitcoin on the other hand is still very speculative, is far from certain to succeed, however if it does succeed over the long term, it stands to appreciate much more then visa stock would likely rise. You cannot realistically expect to ever earn any kind of income from holding bitcoin safely

bitcoin for sure, faster, less reliable for now, but more potential

They are not both low cost transaction networks.

Visa is a transaction network. Bitcoin is wannabe currency. If you buy visa stock, it might be worth of something even if existing currencycease to exist and is replaced by other currency.

In BTC case the network can not be bought independently from money. It goes all in bulk.

I would be fearful of making a long term investment in Visa stock.

There are a lot of companies which were leaders in their respective field - Xerox, Nokia, etc; but have been marginalized because they didn't keep up with technological advances.

Visa and Mastercard may be masters of what they do today, but they can be made obsolete if they do not embrace Bitcoin.

Visa.

The only way credit cards become obsolete is when people stop using debt to conduct their business and personal finances. In the US, at least, credit use is NOT going to decline, not by an amount that will impact the Visa's business any time soon.

Visa's adoption of BTC may happen some day, it would be easy for them to do if they convert to fiat before applying the payment to the balance (given that BTC conversion rate fluctuates so much.

Visa has annuitized it's income based on the materialistic consumer machine that exists in today's world...I'd love to loan ppl money and get paid 20% plus a year for it, fucking amazing.

It has to be bitcoin. Don't forget we are still at the early stage of development and there are so many more things that we haven't done that could potentially bring bitcoin adoption to the next level. One thing to take note is that we have to aim long term and that means keep on holding to it regardless of price movement.

Bitcoin for sure

Visa will be yesterdays asset in a few years unless it keeps changing its model but is the tried and tested one for now
Bitcoin is a new model that has huge potential for growth and development and is tomorrows model being built today
As a stock investment as long as you want normal returns Visa is ok for the next few years, but for accelerated returns and all the associated risks with it got to go with Bitcoin.

Oh and Bitcoin might pay a dividend if it has more altcoin releases like Clam lol.

Statements like this are dangerous because they imply that there's some sort of fact behind it.

What development remains for bitcoin? Bitcoins are created, they exist, people use them to hold their wealth and/or busy things...what more development could exist for bitcoin?

I agree that adoption could increase but that doesn't mean that the price of BTC per fiat would increase. If adoption go to the point where many ppl own Bitcoin and few need to use fiat to buy it the price would remain stable...it's not an investment.

Would you prefer to invest in the Dollar/Euro/GBP/Yen/Yuan or Visa?  That's essentially what this question is about.

First, what model does Visa need to evolve - the loan money to people, it's one of the oldest and most successful business models (except for prostitution of course.) The evolution that could happen is in the physical card and the currency they accept for transactions or paying off of the balance. All of this is easy to do with using BTC probably the hardest because of its volatility with fiat.

Second, what evidence or fact is there that BTC will have accelerated returns?

Third, how would BTC pay dividends?! It's not a company. It's not owned by a central source. Does the dollar pay you a dividend? No, because it's currency not shares in the ownership of a company.

This is great discussion, I love BTC, I don't like seeing people make wild claims about the future without facts...misleading information is VERY dangerous.

Well investing in Visa is a hell of a lot less risky than investing in Bitcoin. Visa is well define cog within the system whereas Bitcoin is the wild west. You're never gonna get filthy rich with your Visa stock but with Bitcoin there is a glimmer of hope. Bitcoin is lawless and offers no protection whatsoever to investors, in its current form it will always be an 'invest what you can afford to lose' type deal. Right now the only thing that keeps Bitcoin moving forward is trust, everyone always get a bit edgy every time the big guys with petahashes of power come close to controlling 50% of the network's hashrate. In a dog eat dog world, how long can such a delicate balance be maintained? I love Bitcoin but there are some pretty scary kinks that need to be ironed out before the common folk will be ready to part with their hard earned cash. And sleep well at night  :D

Bitcoin is muuuuch safer and can still grow fast

Bitcoin is both money and transaction network. Visa is just a transaction network. Bitcoin is more volatile and risky at the moment.

The wording that model can evolve is simply put an alternative to SWIFT using blockchain technology
They won't need as many checks and ledgers and it streamlines the process at a fraction of the cost, money transferring is an old and successful model but the ways we transfer units of value does adapt and change over time, consider the original model of giving money to a bank and having a guardsman protecting the safe at the bank, then the transition to chequing accounts and cheques people used instead of cash, which was then steadily replaced with the use of Visas and the use of the SWIFT network to transfer assets.
Simply put the way we process transactions does change and EVOLVE over time.

The next transition would be to one where communications are secured through a ledger like Bitcoin, with very little margin of error as it communicates with the network, and the ability to perform more advanced contracts with sidechains and 2.0 technology.

Bitcoin is tested and utilized enough that it or a variant will be used in commerce in the future simply because the Blockchain itself is an innovation, the dividends I mentioned were indirect (If you aren't aware of Clam coins then look it up), not directly a Bitcoin dividend but the way it was distributed and the way you claim them kind of are, all you needed was a Bitcoin address in May claim the clams then sell them lol. (Effective dividend haha)

In the future sidechains could do similar things and its worth consideration.

Well, thanks for the education on the evolution of BTC transaction technology. I certainly agree that the transactions can evolve. I agree that they must to meeting changing technology and the needs of consumers.

I still think Visa is a better investment today than BTC. What makes ppl think Visa couldn't adopt their transaction service model to embrace BTC as an emerging currency?

It's concerning that some people compare the investment in BTC to the investment in shares of a company and the two are very, very different.

Investing in bitcoin or investing in visa stock are two different investments with very different risk/return profiles. Visa has a huge advantage as it delivers current income to it's shareholders, to the point that shareholders are guaranteed to not lose their entire investment and would not be a complete disaster as long as visa does not fail in the short to medium term

I would say Bitcoin is better. It have a 'brighter' future than Visa. Although, for now.. Visa is 'brighter' than Bitcoin. Well, let's see.

The only benefit you'll receive from Visa is an established, inclined growth over a very long period of time (assuming the life of the business is infinite as you should when investing)
Bitcoin on the other hand does not have guaranteed growth, but in the very likely chance it will grow, you'll receive a massive return.

Bitcoin does have lots of room to grow and the sky truly is the limit, we are all still early adopters

bitcoin and visa stock are completely different as investments. bitcion high risk chance to very high return, visa not high risk and not high return as it reached most of its potential

You also get the benefit of receiving dividend income from owning visa stock, while you would likely need to spend some amount of money to keep your bitcoin investment secure

From a pure finance point of view, you will have to look at both dividend receipt and capital appreciation to get the total return.
Return on capital is how you should judge which investment has fared better.

Usually, if 2 companies have the same RoE, the Company with lower dividend payouts would be more tax efficient. In most jurisdictions, long term capital gains attracts lower tax than dividends.

Bitcoin has a better chance for growth as compared to visa as an investment.
Visa is nearly at it's full potential.
Bitcoin doesn't ends over the time.

The main advantage of investing VISA stock is safe and continually receiving dividends but the fact that Bitcoin offers soo much for growth cannot be neglected.
So, according to me both Bitcoin and Visa are a good way of investment.

Visa not an investment. Visa wil dissapear eventually when transaction volume gets crushed by Bitcoin transaction volume. Visa is just a tool to move fiat.

That is true. However dividends are money now while capital appreciation is potential money in the future. There are risks that both investments could eventually go to zero, but with dividends you would not lose everything

This one is tough. Visa protects consumers with chargeback but that same issue is what drew people to bitcoin. A sense of people being more tired of PayPal and other ewallet bullshit is why I think a lot joined the bitcoin "club".

Honestly, ApplePay is currently making a huge dent for bitcoin growth and development IMO.

You can mimic dividend payments even when an asset has only capital appreciation. Regularly sell small amounts of your assets (percentage equal to dividend yield that you want). The rest of the asset appreciates. So that way, you have 'money now' as well as potential gain (albeit lower than what you would get if you held the entire asset) in the future.

The downside is people lack the discipline to systematically sell. It is easier for them when the company gives regular dividends.

This would only work when the price increase is steady and constant. There is no investment that has a stable enough of a capital return investment for this to work. With a dividend payment you will receive funds regardless of where the price of the investment has gone recently, however with your strategy, you can only sell a small portion of your holdings when the price has appreciated recently.

Thanks for all the responses so far to this thread ..

Here's the current Market Caps for publically traded transaction networks ..

Visa  ( V )                          164 Billion
MasterCard ( MA )              100 Billion
American Express ( AXP )     96 Billion
Discover ( DFS )                  30 Billion
Ebay/PayPal ( EBAY )           71 Billion
        

V/MA/AXP/DFS all have current yields of between 0.75-1.5% annually and
all currently raise their dividends to shareholders on at least an annual basis ..

V and MA's revenue model is very low risk in that it's all fee based ..
While AXP and DFS actually lend to their cardholders and therefore have
some default risk that V and MA don't ..    

BTC @ $327.00 has a current market cap of 4.5 Billion and 6.86 Billion fully diluted
XRP @ $0.023 has a current market cap of 730 Million and 2.1 Billion fully diluted

( I added XRP to the discussion since it's currently in the #2 market cap position for crypto )

Due to the decentralized nature of crypto, I'm not sure how we assign appropriate "value"
vs the value of the corporately owned transaction networks ..

Ultimately, long term value in BTC may come more from it's "currency"
characteristics than from the blockchain/network ..

Triff ..

It doesn't matter how the price increases/decreases. You can implement this strategy (ie sell 2 or 3% of the asset) irrespective of price movements. You can have price decreases even in the case of a dividend paying stock, can't you? In a falling price environment, this strategy would resemble that.

So you think you own visa stock.  Care to prove it with a signed message I can verify on a public network? 

What you really own is counterparty risk with a bucket shop.  Get out while you still can. 

You have  a great possibility to earn a lot of money if you invest in Bitcoin and at the same time you can lose much money with this because market is many speculative. If you buy VISA stock you can't earn like bitcoin but (at the same time) you can't lose like Bitcoin :D. VISA actually is at the full potential, process around 500 Million - 1 billion of transaction for day, Bitcoin have many many way to do for reach VISA numbers, because actually Bitcoin can only process 7 transaction for second (or 605.000 transaction for day).

I guess the axiom of higher risk, higher expected return holds good in all cases.
Bitcoin certainly does have higher potential.

That didn't take long ..

On Dec 20th ..

V @ 261
BTC @ 327

Today

V @ 265
BTC @ 230

Triff ..

PS ..

Read the OP on this thread ..
Valid reasoning IMHO ..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923411.0;topicseen

Visa is a huge accepted worldwide payment system.

Bitcoin is a hugely volatile currency that has lost massive amounts of value in recent times.

Low risk vs high risk investment

Small possible return vs huge return/huge loss or total loss

The main thing is FEES and SPEED!
Bitcoin absolutely winner from that point  8)

I would say these are completely different. Bitcoin is not a stock at all. And investing in Visa is likely not possible unless you are a legally "qualified investor".  How do you become a qualified investor? You need to prove that you have a million dollars and that you make a half million per year. That's it.

If that sounds unfair then you are beginning to see why fiat has become an unholy system to protect the rich. Basically, you and I are the "little man". Our job is to work our ass off, pay the taxes of the rich, and make money for the company.

Straw man argument.  And what are you exactly to the Winklevoss twins? You are simply one of their pawns.  Both fiat and bitcoin are geared towards making the richer rich and the poorer...even more poor.  The whales (men in the suits) and early adopters control the market.  Not the little men.  Implying either fiat or bitcoin is a less corrupt system is laughable.  Both have massive pros and massive cons, public perception wise bitcoin has been involved in a lot more scammy behavior percentage wise.

I agree. Visa is a business that will most likely continue to be successful over time. Bitcoin is something that may or may not continue to have value in the future.

What are you talking about? You can buy visa stock with any brokerage account. You need to have very little money to be able to invest in visa stock. Less then $100

I would go for VISA as there are many countries where BItcoin is not yet legal :D Also Visa will stay for a longer time, No one knows when Bitcoin falls..

In fact, I can be your broker.  Just send me the cash and I will gladly give you a piece of paper that claims you own Visa.  If enough people do this, I will send "dividends". 

Bitcoin is both money and transmission network. Visa is just a network.