Bitcoin Forum

I don't ever want there to be innocent people falsely marked as scammers, so I require quite a bit of proof before scammer-tagging anyone. Sometimes there are very clear-cut cases that don't require any additional proof, but often some investigation is required to collect more proof. Maged has been doing a lot of this investigation work (thanks!), but I don't consider investigating these cases to be a function of the board. I don't expect moderators to spend any time investigating scam cases.

Now Maged is busy, and people seeking to have someone scammer-tagged are finding that all of the moderators are ignoring them. What such people should do is hire a non-moderator to collect the evidence. Moderators have no advantage in these investigations over non-moderators, since only admins have IP logs, access to PMs, etc.

Scam investigators need to convince me that someone is almost certainly a scammer. This is done by:
- Finding conclusive evidence that the suspect has scammed someone.
- Compiling all of the evidence into a short report (not strewn across a huge thread).
- Posting all of the evidence in a new thread in "Trading discussion".
- After at least a few days of public discussion, send me the link to the thread with the evidence.

If you think I might have evidence that would prove that someone is guilty (PMs, IP logs, etc.), compile the evidence you do have to show "probable cause" and ask me specific questions that will clearly help the case when answered. I will not actually give you IP addresses or PMs -- I check them myself and give you answers based on the info.

I might be willing to give some free forum advertising to a reputable person/company specializing in scam investigations.

Bitcoin Police :)

That's after they were already proven to be scammers. I won't do it during an investigation.

If anyone wants me to investigate a case free of charge, I will do so. I have methods independent of the moderators for finding pertinent information. I will NEVER work with the moderators or admins on your behalf, though. I tried that once and theymos was an asshole about it. All I will do is give you evidence and you can present it to the moderators on your own.

I've only ever sent you two scam-related sentences via PM, so I don't know how you got that impression.

Don't take it personally, I just wanted to try something unconventional (that would prove bulanula was an outright troll and punish him accordingly) that required both you AND bulanula to agree to it and you dismissed it outright, without even considering if he would agree to it. I do consider that kind of an asshole thing to do.

LOL bulanula is a troll? Really? I never got this memo LOL

Calling out a mod an asshole is some inconsiderate of you. Do you understand what theymos does for the bitcoin community?

gtfo, Raize.

Here's the full story for those interested:
bulanula owes 22.5 BTC.

He wanted me to post an address to pay to, but had no intention of paying:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78386.msg903383#msg903383
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78386.msg902207#msg902207

Others even knew he had no intention of paying:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78386.msg902289#msg902289

He feigns intent to pay:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78386.msg904518#msg904518

He then says I'm trying to make him pay more than he owes:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78386.msg904548#msg904548

I start getting multiple PMs about this while I'm still trying to get bulanula's account at BTC-E restored, I see he's making things up now, so I debate over what to do here. It's obvious if I post an address publicly he's just going to continue to troll the thread/forums, so I ask if the mods are okay with me posting the address on the condition that if he DOES NOT pay he gets banned. Here's the text of what I sent:


You'll note I said both theymos AND bulanula should agree to these terms. But theymos rejects it outright:


I've since posted the address publicly anyway:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78386.msg972246#msg972246

So yes. I do think he's an ass. He's a good forum admin, but still an ass. :P

Doh, my bad, I was in a middle of things at the time of the moment.

My apologies, theymos. :)

We definitely are having issues with scammer cases at the moment. There's several that need to be looked into, that can't be determined just from reading a thread or two. Maged was the only mod really doing them, now that he's not there's nobody doing it. It's a lot of time and effort to ask someone to do for free. It might be a decent business idea. Insurance/collection agency type thing, where if you pass certain standards when performing a trade (getting enough info/using escrow/whatever) then they will guarantee to buy your debt for a percentage fee and collect themselves/pursue scammer tag. If appropriate precautions are taken a scammer tag should be a certainty in the majority of cases.  


And that's not theymos being an ass, he's always been short and to the point. It helps if you think of him as a robot. An anarchist robot.  ;)

And yeah bans for scammers ain't gonna happen, don't even ask. Besides, banning them would just ensure they'll never pay their debts.

That wouldn't be a concern of mine, to be quite frank. Once I've determined someone is bad for the Bitcoin community, repayment of debt is the least of my concerns. The method I proposed would have ensured that if the party in question was of any benefit to the community, they would have made the correct decision, and I was denied that opportunity. Plus it would have been done publicly and with both parties acceptance, so no one would have had reason to question the result. But bulanula wasn't going to agree anyway unless the troll in him cared more about the attention than the repayment. You can bet your wallet that now that I've posted in this thread he will too. Now he's your guys' problem, though, I have him on ignore.

If you have cases you want me to look into I don't mind doing so. I understand the work would be overwhelming, but I still wouldn't accept anything for doing so. I have a full time job so I can't do it all day, but given enough individuals willing to look into individual accounts for free, we might be able to handle it. I have to imagine that there are enough people interested in seeing the Bitcoin community grow that they'd be willing to take on the challenge without compensation.

I do liked Maged, though, is something preventing him from doing this anymore? Or has it just been too much work?

If you look at any of my posts from the past week, you'll notice two things:
1) There's fewer of them.
2) They're posted at very strange times for someone who lives in the US...

Well, the reason for that is that I'm actually not in the US right now  ;D. For the next several weeks, I'll be based out of Norway!

For the first week, here, I didn't take any new scam reports because I was jet-lagged and I wanted to go exploring. However, I'm once again accepting a limited number of scam reports (in fact, I'm about to process one that was in my queue right now!). I don't know entirely how much time I will have, nor when, so I'll still hold back on accepting too many.

If anybody wants to learn how to process a scam report, contact me with one that you're willing to do and I'll walk you through the process. Theymos basically told you what's needed here, but there are a few subtle things that I'd prefer not to reveal publicly that if scammers knew about, could prolong an investigation for months (see: Shakaru). Be warned: the average scam report that I process ends up taking about 1 hour total between gathering background information and communicating with the various parties. More obvious stuff takes just a few minutes, but the harder stuff takes several hours.

Edit: I'll reveal one important tip here: When you are processing a scammer case, always view things from the accused point of view and then try to prove that the hypothetical argument that the scammer could make is false. Do this before you even contact them, since there's no reason to harass someone when there wasn't a good case against them anyway. (So if I ever contact you about a scam, you should know that things must be pretty bad for you...)

It's wonderful that you're willing to do the work to follow up on these scammer accusations, Maged, but I'm thinking that a dedicated group of scammer investigators is a good idea for the community. It's doubtful that anyone would pay just for corroboration after they've already lost money but I do believe there's a way to get at least some recompense for the work involved in compiling the necessary evidence.

Here's my idea:

Set up a website to outline what exactly we do (compiling evidence solely for the purpose of confirming that a scam has been perpetrated by a specific user). I'll put up a donation address, some ads, and maybe do an occasional fundraiser, as well.

Each investigator will be in a rotating schedule for new investigations but may turn down any job for any reason.

Upon completion of an investigation, all pertinent information will be posted at the bitcointalk forums in a dedicated thread and I'll point theymos to it so that he may make a decision about tagging the accused as a scammer.

At the end of each month, all proceeds (minus the cost of hosting) will be divided among investigators based on the number of their completed investigations during that month. For example, if there are three participating investigators and Investigators #1 and #2 complete two jobs each and Investigator #3 completes one job, then #1 and #2 each get 40% of the proceeds and #3 gets 20%.

This is all just off the top of my head so any comments or suggestions are welcome.

I like it! The reality is, the person who was scammed already knows that the person was a scammer, so they don't need our services. Rather, it's the community that needs to know about a scam. Thus, it should be paid for by the community. The community has paid me for scammer investigations in the past, so donations (as you suggest) should hopefully be enough to sustain the group.

As for dividing the money, there is the problem that many investigations are extremely easy, and some are absurdly hard. I don't know what we'd do about that. It might just work out fine depending on the people in the group, but I could see it falling apart if some people only take the easy stuff.

Also, all of our information doesn't need to be posted publicly, nor should it. Not even the reports to theymos. Too much private information is contained in those communications to release publicly. I'm all for the information being released to the rest of the group, though. Of course, if either party in an investigation wants to go public, that is on them.

Sounds reasonable but theymos was the one requesting a thread containing all the evidence.

That will be tricky. This should be on a strictly volunteer basis but you're right that one job may require much more work than another.

The only way that I see would be to have everyone fill out some sort of spreadsheet detailing the work done and the time it took. I'd hate to have to break it down too much, however. Maybe jobs could be classified as Easy, Average, and Difficult with relevant pay rates.

That surely explains the tone of PM's I got from him months ago. I took it personally, but let it pass. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, BadBear. I have great respect for theymos, and all the ribbing I do at his expense is just that--ribbing/joking.

~Bruno~

Theymos is short, to the point and most importantly, fast. Most efficient admin of a site ever.

See, that's the problem most people have. They tend to hear tone in written words, where there is simply no tone, just a message being passed.

I'm accused of being an asshole at least 2 times every day because of that same thing.
I'm hoping that people will stop reading emotions on written words when there are none. But I can really just hope, I know it won't happen anytime soon.

Okay, I've thrown a very basic website together, basically just a place to explain what we do and to list known scammers, accept donations and with a contact page. Anyone other than Maged interested in participating?

Count me in, edd.

And me.

I'd be willing to help out as well.

This is really really freaky and ironic at the same time. You nailed it on the head perfectly with this explanation that I would have never sought to put it in terms like how you did, so many really smart people here, no doubt, man. This just happened to me yesterday but everything was good after what I sent was fully read.

+1

Can scammers like me join too ?

You know the saying "it takes one to know one" :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Based on your personality, you might be too impulsive for scammer investigations. However, your personality is such that I believe that it may be possible for you to conduct a good investigation after some training.

There are two key components needed by scam investigators:
1) The ability to (mostly) disregard emotions and prejudice. Usually this means clear logical thinking, but that's not completely necessary.
2) You must be a trusted member of the community.

bulanula, you might make a good investigator. All you would have to do is get rid of the scammer tag and I believe that at least point 2 would apply. Only you would know about point 1, but I think you can do it.

Im keen to get involved if the man hours dont kill me ;)

Don't worry, the meds can always take care of number 1 :D

Overdose and the problem is gone ;)

Joking aside, I am not on any meds :) I might need to work on my character though ...

In order to provide a consistent and professional service to the bitcointalk community, we should probably come up with a formal application and training process for potential investigators. This would provide the public with some assurance that personal vendettas are unlikely to gain any traction, and Standard Operating Procedures would make it easier for the original investigator to pass along a job to someone else if it he or she were unable to continue for whatever reason.

The minute you start representing this in terms of some kind of formal, professional or accredited service, you're going to run into licensing requirements in many jurisdictions.

There's also the question of the purpose of these investigations.  Labelling someone a scammer after the fact has limited value.  It might matter to people who want to remain part of this community, but it's not going to matter a damn to those who are going to cut and run from Bitcoin unless the information obtained leads to legal consequences or finds its way to potential victims of their next venture.

I'd like to see us be able to label those who we can prove 'intent to scam' or defraud as well.

add my name to the list.

Perhaps I should have used the word "standardized" instead of "formal."

I also fail to see why presenting evidence solely for the purpose of applying a scammer tag for the bitcointalk.org forum would require any licensing in any jurisdiction.

So is this still happening or what? I'm still definitely interested in helping out. I won't take BTC as payment, but I can't guarantee I can drop everything to process a request.

This is just compiling information and then posting it for the admins/mods to review right? No funny business? I imagine a bunch of us can help, pro bono or not.

I believe so? I think edd is throwing something together website/donation wise, but I'm available to train you guys whenever. And I would prefer to actually train you, since the process is pretty involved.

Yup! If any of you find a case you'd like to handle, let me know! You can start compiling the information right away, even though I'll send you the process information after I hear from you. For your first case, I'd like it if the report is submitted to me, first, before you send it to theymos. I don't want to trouble him with training a bunch of you guys, especially since you might get the wrong impression of him when he tells you what you need to fix (I've heard complaints that he sounds a little robotic...).

(swear word)

Ignoring all the bullshit above, I have been helped by a couple of forum members chasing scammers and otherwise non-paying assholes (and I've making payment where it's due).  A couple of those people would be useful to employ more regularly.  From a lender's perspective, having better access to enforcement and follow up would be useful.

Perhaps this could help me as a lender after having lent to a client who didn't pay back (didn't realize at the time).

The site just needs some final touches. This weekend was my wedding anniversary so I was away from a computer. I'm at my "day job" right now but should have something to show this evening.

Oh, neat!

If anyone wants to get their feet wet, I have a scam report fresh off of the queue:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83502.0

Start off by contacting all of the parties involved and gathering as much information as you can. I'll help you work through your first investigation, so let me know any questions you have. Also, be sure to "claim" the investigation by posting in the thread saying that you'll look into it or something.

I'll approve of any of the following people taking this up:
Raize, Psy, John, Clipse, sadpandatech

I'm not too sure about:
gweedo, bulanula

If you're staff here and haven't done an investigation before, I'd be happy to take you on as well. If you have done an investigation, you can just take this if you want.

If you're not on the above list, that just means that I wasn't aware that you had an interest. Feel free to let me know if you still want to join.

While anybody really can do this job, I made this list to show who I believe can be trusted with private information (feel free to reference this post if you are listed and someone is wary about sending you the information) and also who I think is likely to be able to remain neutral in an investigation.

gotcha and on it. Will contact you as soon as I get everything neatened up.

Awesome :)

done and filing report now.

Ill grab the next one, pretty sure this one is in capable hands with panda.

Did keep an active on this thread since posting previously.

Just so everyone knows, Clipse is officially handling the Wnd case.

Thanks!

So, by this I'm to understand that you will read private messages with probable cause? While I respect your position (and think highly of how you conduct yourself with your responsibilites), I'm definitely not ok with this.

I am grateful it is possible to ignore all PMs. Thanks for that! :)

 

Whoops, guruvan is about to get busted for trading cp via the forum PM system, just kidding.

No actual shit, dummy, why wouldn't an administrator have access to PMs? Even if you designed a system that had no easy GUI to do it, you could still read them with a proper commandline SQL query, it just would be a little more difficult. I can't believe you would think otherwise.

Everyone deserves their privacy and this in no way will take away from that. By this, you should understand that unless there is already very solid proof that such person was a scammer and one small piece of puzzle was missing that would be in a PM then NO PM's will be read.  And none of said PM's are shared with any independent person and likely not even with mods.

Example;
*Maged; "Theymos, I think this person is scamming, can I see their PMs?"

*Theymos; "No"  (he doens't like making long, winded replies. ;p

cheers

It is my understanding that theymos won't read any PM unless he already has a copy of the PM that was revealed by one of the parties involved. All he does is verify that the copy of the PM wasn't modified.

This is the reason why we always have to ask someone involved for a copy of all correspondence when we get a scam report.

If you're worried about him snooping on your PMs, though, feel free to GPG encrypt your communications or use an external messaging system. That being said, I don't know how theymos would have the time to randomly read a bunch of people's PMs, anyway.

Again, rjk, you show your igrnorance. Just because an admin CAN access data doesn't mean he would, should, or will.  I have administrated more than my fair share of user data over the years, and it's a simple rule in my book before I look through anyone's personal data I have special access to: legally binding order - nothing short. I will not violate people's private communications for any reason. It is wrong, and troublesome for all parties involved.

I appreciate the CP comment, too. Nice way to slyly associate that - I'm sure your just kidding matters. I see why you're well ignored. I will do that from now on.


Thank you for clarifying the actual use of that. That is considerably better than just looking through pms for evidence in the case of probable cause.

In fact, I hold most of you (in particular, both you, Maged, and theymos) in pretty high regard - so I could hardly imagine you snooping without cause, or wnating to, even if you'd have the luxury of time. :)

(forum PMs are still far too difficult to use, so I'm still glad this has found me a way to disable them completely)

My apologies for any perceived implication that you guys would do anything nefarious. This wasn't my intent. I had been operating under the general assumptions I make as a sysadmin, and was surprised that your rules are slightly different than I would have.

As Maged mentioned, I usually only confirm that a reported PM is accurate. Sometimes I read all of the PMs between the potential scammer and the victim, with the victim's permission. There have been only a few cases where I've read all of a potential scammer's PMs, and they all turned out to be guilty in the end. I don't do it lightly. I never read random PMs; I haven't even read any of Satoshi's PMs, which would undoubtedly be very interesting.


It is necessary to use SQL to read them. SMF doesn't have an interface for it.

Again, you show your inability to comprehend what I wrote. I never said he would, should, or will. I said that it is possible, and could be done.
Less than 3 ignores. Whee. I'm so hurt. (HINT: That was sarcsam, IDGAF)

I'm still interested in a site or something where we can find out what threads/users need research done on them. I'd like to help out.

I agree, even if it was only a private ftp repository where we have a few seperate directories for 'new investigations', 'finished investogations', and each investigation having its own subfolders in each. Main directory should have a short roster and list of investigations and indicate their status.

Sounds like a forum would work well for this. Oh theymos!...