Bitcoin Forum

There are niche ETFs for almost everything now. You can invest in specific industries and sub-industries by way of ETFs, along with numerous currencies and commodities.

Why not push these ETF companies to create a bitcoin ETF? There's no technical reason they can't do it, and I know that I for one could invest a lot more money in bitcoin if I could use my Fidelity 401k (which lets me invest in ETFs).

So, I compiled a list of companies that might release a niche ETF for bitcoin, and the best way to contact them:

_______Name_______	_______Website_______	__________Email__________
Market Vectors:	Van Eck (http://www.vaneck.com/about-van-eck/contact-us/)	info@vaneck.com
Global X:	GlobalX Funds (http://www.globalxfunds.com/contactus.php)	info@globalxfunds.com
PowerShares:	Invesco PowerShares (http://www.invescopowershares.com/contact/default.aspx)	info@powershares.com
iShares, Barclays:	US Ishares (http://us.ishares.com/contact_ishares/index.htm)	isharesetfs@blackrock.com
Guggenheim:	Guggenheim Funds (http://www.guggenheimfunds.com/contact-us/)	etfinfo@guggenheimfunds.com
First Trust:	FT Portfolios (https://www.ftportfolios.com/retail/contactus.aspx)	feedback@ftportfolios.com
Index IQ:	Index IQ (http://www.indexiq.com/contact.html)	Innovate@IndexIQ.com
Wisdom Tree:	Wisdom Tree (http://www.wisdomtree.com/contact-us.aspx)	web form  (http://www.wisdomtree.com/contact-us.aspx)
iPath:	iPath ETN (http://www.ipathetn.com/us/contactus)	ipathetn@blackrock.com
Currency Shares:	Currency Shares (http://www.currencyshares.com/content/aboutus/contactus.shtml)	web form (http://www.currencyshares.com/contactus/contactus.rails)
Factor Shares:	Factor Shares (http://factorshares.com/about-us/contact-us.aspx)	info@factoradvisors.com
Proshares:	Proshares (http://www.proshares.com/help/contact.html)	info@proshares.com
ETF Securities:	ETF Securities (http://www.etfsecurities.com/us/other/etfs_contactus.asp)	infony@etfsecurities.com

You can help; please take a moment to contact the companies above and let them know you would be interested in investing in a bitcoin ETF. If you get an interesting response from them by phone or by email, post it here! Also, post any other ETF companies that should be added to this list.

If one of them actually does it, the ease of investing in bitcoins will go WAY down, and the amount of money coming in to the bitcoin economy will go WAY up :)

I would invest in it.

Really cool idea :) I'm sceptical that any of the companies will do it, but it would be awesome...

i have looked briefly into what is required to run a bitcoin etf. this would need a significant amount of funding since you need at least 2 companies , management and public traded etf. since the actual operation of the etf could be very very cheap(automated) unlike SLV, SPY etc.. this could operate with minimum fees.
if someone figures out how to start it up this will certainly boost the bitcoin price.
i can imagine even some conservative technology funds will allocate small % to bitcoin if they are easily accessible via ETF. compared to the current market capitalisation this could be huge.

Here is what I sent to all the email addresses above:

Could the initial investment required be gotten through some sort of crowdfunding system? like kickstarter?

Got this from WisdomTree:

My reply:

From Global X:


From Proshares:

From iPath:


From PowerShares:

I would give those companies creating a bitcoin etf about the same chance as a snowball's in hell.

It is a regulatory headache and so on, they won't do it before they see some serious money.

Such ETF would be immediately in violation of the rules for the stock exchange trading and therefore a waste of sponsor's funds used to form it.

You could create a corporation that aims to maintain the parity of its stock with the exchange value of bitcoin. And such corporation could trade on pink sheets bulletin board system.

The main problem seems to be Gavin Andresen who continues to sign the checkpoints the bitcoin code:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blame/master/src/checkpoints.cpp

In effect he acts as a chief tresurer of Bitcoin yet he never signed off on an audit. He even closed his own private Bitcoin company before it could accrue enough liability to go under the generally accepted accounting principles.

Labeling him as a chief treasurer for signing the checkpoints strikes me as seriously odd. He's nothing more than a rubber stamp for the blockchain here. He can't really put anything in there that isn't accepted by the majority of users. If he did, it'd be immediately obvious and he'd lose the trust of the community.

EDIT: Also, all the accounting happens in public, so it's auditable by anyone wishing to do so.

Two non-sequiturs in one post? I'm not sure if you are naturally myopic or willfully myopic.

1) Recall the BIP wars from around April. If you call that rubber stamp then I'll call it rubber-stamp bazooka.

2) Blockchain works as a ledger only if the address ownership is published. I recall only one case where Mt.Gox published one of their addresses after the hack to prove the control of funds. Nothing like that happened ever since despite the added RPC call functionality that was designed for just that purpose.

I thought of this. You could basically start a company whose total assets were bitcoin. You keep the coins on paper in a vault and then sell shares. There is a gold silver company that does this out of Alberta whose assets are 90% bullion. http://www.centralfund.com/

1) BIP Wars? There was a lot of noise, I can agree with that. But that's all it was. Blown completely out of proportion. The whole thing is comparable to first deciding to paint the bikeshed and then having a long and noisy argument about which color to paint it. Only, in this case the whole community needed to agree on the color for the painting to happen at all so it became quite a messy affair after another color was proposed. Almost everyone agreed that the new functionality should be added. The argument was about semantics of exactly how to accomplish it.

The checkpoints are very different. Choosing a checkpoint that isn't already a part of the current longest chain is something that will fork the chain. Even then, the fork will only happen if a significant portion of the mining power also chooses to adopt the checkpoint. The users have the choice of which fork to use. Gavin can prepare the fork but it'll only matter if enough users decide to use it. This is why I call him a rubber stamp here.

2) Everyone can verify that the network rules have been followed, the accounts are public afterall, even if not easily linkable to their owners. I take it you are saying that's not enough to qualify as an audit?

To sum up. Gavin is nothing even close to chief treasurer of Bitcoin. Such a person does not exist. That's what's so revolutionary about Bitcoin. It's a distributed consensus system. For something to happen in this system, a consensus is needed.

I don't expect this to remove the problem of not fitting in with the stock exchange rules though. I'd be really surprised if those are applicable at all to a system without someone responsible for accounting. So, in that respect, I do understand why you'd want someone to be the chief treasurer.

(I should probably disclose that I have no knowledge of the rules the stock exchanges use. So, unless you or someone else fill me in, I'll be completely clueless about them.)

I'm inserting a full quote just to assure against further edits from jojkaart.
OK, willful myopia. That reference to bike-shedding from FreeBSD settled it. Thanks.

This problem of what is Bitcoin vs. what is Satoshi Bitcoin client maintained by Gavin and friends) was discussed several times, both here and elsewhere. The good jumping poing for people interested in understanding is probably the following thread and post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45104.msg538561#msg538561

Edit: Actually I just realized that jojkaart is probably a software developer (from the rather obscure FreeBSD reference). Therefore he will probably be also capable of understanding the idea of BIP 2112 (from my signature) where I talk about cryptographically signed digital prospectuses.

I have zero interest in editing that message. Although I do wonder why you'd announce it like this. Feels very hostile. Are you trying to scare me into not replying to you anymore?


Your arrogance really has me wonder if you're actually more interested in demeaning those with differing viewpoints than in discussion. You didn't actually reply to any of my points in any way.

To comment a little on the post you linked to. The courts will most likely try something someday. I believe they'll be about as succesful as they have been in blocking the pirate bay. That is, their decision only really matters to those who want it to matter to them. It will be interesting to see how the first such a case will go. Because, in the end, the decision is in the hands of the users.

It will either end with total failure for the courts or we'll see the bitcoin network fork into two different networks. I find the latter option rather unlikely. A version of Bitcoin that's controlled by the court of some country would have very little appeal to anyone who cares at all about financial freedom.

You "heard" a rumor? Or you attempted to "start" a rumor?  ;)

Definitely the latter!

From ishares:

From ETF Securities:

From Guggenheim:


Please, bitcoin forum. Help me flood these companies with requests. If they see enough interest, someone with authority to make decisions will at least have to start thinking about bitcoin!

I would definitely buy this ETF

From GlobalX:

Seriously, am I the only one willing to send a few emails to these companies to rouse their interest? What are internet forums for if not to organize harassment on people and companies?

Personally, I think Bitcoin has to have more market share and a much bigger market capitalisation before it makes sense to setup an ETF. Currently, it would not help the Bitcoin project much except maybe a price spike and more speculators which bring higher volatility.

How do you feel being exactly 1 year ahead of the curve on this one?

Re: Van Eck Proposal Above


see

Winklevoss Bitcoin ETF May Not be Redeemable in Bitcoins for Individual Investors



http://letstalkbitcoin.com/post/55120007013/winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-may-not-be-redeemable-in

There is a lengthy discussion underway in the Economics section on the proposed Winkelvoss Bitcoin Trust, which would provide a Bitcoin-backed ETF:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252330.0

That particular discussion covers the potential impact of the Bitcoin ETF on Bitcoin price discovery, as well as touching on some of the ins and outs of how such products work, how creation and redemption is handled, fund expenses, and more.

If memory serves, there are at least a couple of other Bitcoin ETF threads which had been going gangbusters, although I haven't dipped into those in awhile.

Stupid idea that completely negates the point of owning bitcoins in the first place.

If an ETF actually materializes, I definitely want to invest some of my ROTH IRA in it. Any future gains from that investment would be tax free!

All my investments are already tax free. woo-hoo...

That would be fine for Bitcoin. What about getting them to accept Litecoin?

I'm guessing that if you were to ask all the folks who would like to own Bitcoins, though -- some of whom already do and some of whom haven't been able to yet -- you'd probably find quite a few different reasons why they'd like to own them. Quite a few more might not care much whether they own any directly or not, but they might like exposure to Bitcoins as an asset. In any case, some of them would undoubtedly agree with you that it's all a stupid idea that negates their reason for wanting to own Bitcoins in the first place. Others, not so much.

In my personal view, it seems like it could be a big positive (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252330.0) for the Bitcoin economy.

I like how you just came on the forum to push for bitcoin investment vehicles, with no previous interest in bitcoins as a currency.

Cryptoanarchist, you're too funny.  ::)

I'm not sure whether you're deliberately setting out to try and turn total strangers into enemies, but my view is that all of us probably already have enough of those. If you'd like actually to read some of my previous posts that weren't about investments, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. However, I make no apologies for the fact that I have an interest in investing and have done for a long time; I also have an interest in Bitcoins and have done for a long time.

And of course, if you'd like to discuss Bitcoin investments, I'm fine with that. But co-opting an otherwise potentially interesting discussion to create an excuse for impugning my integrity -- twice now, on two different threads -- doesn't seem like it does either of us much good.

I read through all your posts. Its pretty obvious you came on here just to promote the bitcoin etf concept.