Bitcoin Forum

So yeah i keep getting lost in thought on this one whats your take on it?

Free energy, like you own your own dam??

Probably the same thing that happens to bitcoin when hell freezes over :)

free energy!  :D
well i wouldn't need to pay a hydro bill,
so maybe I'd have more money bitcoin?

What energy is free?  Like hamsters going in a wheel? :)

If they wouldn't eat.. Damn, I pay almost less for my own dinner..

The universe would heat up till it is no longer possible to maintain a liveable environment making it irrelevant.

But assuming free energy also would come with 100% efficient computing it would simply be about the space occupied by those machines. Not that big of a deal.

Energy requires resources.

Resources are scarse. Desires are not.

In Star Trek universe, Holodeck comes into play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck)

And we don't need Bitcoin anymore.

Not everything sold depends on resources. And not all desires are of a material nature.
That said I think even then there would be a need for currency.

Actually the fascinating concept here is energy storage or transmission using the bitcoin network. What i mean by this is if extra solar or wind capacity is used to mine BTC, and conversely BTC miners shut down during peak hours regionally,  we will have the same effect as if excess energy in in one region was sold and transmitted to another region.  But without transmission losses!  Bitcoin is awesome!

And how would you obtain your new shiny Holodeck? ;)

I'm talking about these techonoliges i've heard about investors creating stuff in the past 100 years or so where the cost of electricity to run batteries generates more energy then it takes to run the batteries. I guess the gov and other rich companies raided these inventors and thus oil continues to rain.. I digress. What will happen in this case of free energy?

Like solar / wind power? eh..

If energy is not a limiting factor, other things will be:
-Space (with high enough difficulty, a room full of computers wouldn't get you minimum wage)
-Computation speed
-Cost of labor (with high enough difficulty, people will realize they are making less than minimum wage setting up computers)
-Heat (even with free energy, heat will be a problem as you will need fans or air conditioning)

...and so on

only one thing to say:
conservation of energy is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy)

if you profe this wrong you'll get the nobel-prize! ;D

Who cares about a Nobel prize, if you play your cards right you could own half the world, and possibly more.

Interesting thoughts... I shall ponder on this.

When we have free energy, bitcoin will be used to control distribution of global and extraterrestrial resources..

My rigs run on free energy :) (free for me)

free...

energy...

???

step away from the silk road brother

Heard someone just tried 51% attack on LTC. Easy with those hamsters!

successful attack or rejected?

Many landlords include electricity in the rent, and at some universities electricity is free, so some people may already have "free" energy.

ongoing, claimed to be.

But are you living under a rock? The Alternate Cryptocurrency Forum has been the source of so much Drama lately it wouldn't surprise me if Ebaumsworld got wind if it.  ;D

If unlimited energy were freely available to everyone all the time, everything would become a hobby. Including Bitcoin. Time would become the limiting factor, not money.

yes, money would become irrelevant

I asked Multivac and the response was:

"INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

I'll try again later...

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html (http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html)

What happens with ALIENS? They probably have real fast computers.

 ::)

why do a 51% attack
when you can calculate the human race out of existence

Everyone knows aliens are trolls

The energy won't really be free, we would be siphoning it from another dimension or something. Once they figure out what is going on, clearly those beings would come to control the cost of transactions. In essence bitcoins are energy credits. They are the ideal inter-dimensional currency.

Perfect!

Also:



*investors/=inventors. That is a bad Freudian slip.

FTFY

I don't want to go OT because actually I think this discussion of how bitcoins, or at least things like it, are energy credits is really important to realize. But just because it came out of your fingers rather than vocal cords doesn't make it less a Freudian slip. We should also consider the power of spell checkers to encourage certain fraudian slips over others.

There will never be such thing as free energy. Did you mean cheap energy? Energy is already cheap, it's very close to cheapest it has ever been.

I wonder what's going to happen to Bitcoin when energy gets expensive.

could you explain this more rigorously?

Energy will only get more expensive as far as the eye can see.

Oh - and if you think there is a technological fix (fusion, say) read this:
 http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/

I believe what he's getting at is something like this. Let's say there's two huge 100TH/s mining farms, one in California and one in India. The idea is that during the day in California you shut down the rig there while running in India, and during the night (day in India) you turn on the Cali rig and shut down the Indian rig. The network hashrate contribution stays constant at 100TH/s, but in effect since the load is on only during the best times it's like transmitting the power.

outstanding...thank you

Agreed. I'm sure it's a contrived conversation, but it was entertaining nonetheless.

Exactly!  The major issue with solar, wind, etc is that it is inconsistent.  And actual energy storage options (pumping water into lakes on top of mountains, air into the ground) are inefficient. 

Another way to think of it is that the existence of a reliable way to convert excess energy supply to money allows energy providers to over-build infrastructure that harvests this "free" energy.  Today these are underbuilt and excess demand is filled by expensive and environmentally unsound options like burning dirty coal...

Sigh

Yes i know that "blah blah blah <insert freeenergy can't exist> blah blah" but you never knows maybe some science have been suppressed to keep us under "their" control. (Who ever "They" are)

Bitcoin sucks in infinite amount of free energy and KABOOM we have another BIG BANG.

oooooOOOO! Binary Big Bang here we come!

no bit can escape crypto-blackhole

You guys got some subliminal messages or is it just me?

lol j/k

smoothie..... funny mate ::)

LOL thanks....gotta have some humor and fun sometimes....some here are too uptight...relax guys  ::) ::) ::)

Energy is Free, harvesting it is not.

lol its true when you walk or jump you are pushing off the earth equally and oppositely, the earth is just too darn big to notice and their is no other point of reference to display it visually.

Are you sure that wind power is actually converting the angular acceleration of the planet into electricity and that it isn't a once removed form of solar energy where the sun heats air non-uniformly causing wind? ;)

I believe the original poster is referring to what is commonly known as "Energy from the Vacuum" or "Energy from the Ether".

Nikola Tesla is supposed to have been very active in the pursuit of this research and the conspiracy theory goes that JP Morgan/Edison/etc were very much opposed.

There are books written by people like Tom Bedini, Lt Colonel Tom Bearden, and a whole slew of other people actively researching and experimenting.

Tom Bearden claims that the fundamentals of physics taught in school are intentionally misleading in order to maintain the status quo.

It's been a few years since I kept up with PESWiki and the other communities but it's a very interesting field of research, for sure.

-p

Im glad some one could explain were this is all comming from

Sigh.

You sir, are a moron. The worst kind...you seek out those who mislead you.

Now I have to decide wether to laugh or cry.

Ugh. :-)

I really am not saying any of it is true, just that I thought I knew what the OP was looking for.

-p

If E=mc squared, there really should be a lot more E.

Having said that, what happens to Bitcoin when all that E is available? Not a whole hell of a lot, actually. Contrary to some prevalent ideas, Bitcoin does not derive it's value from electricity.

Put another way, one could've asked 150 years ago, what happens to gold when we start making shiny things out of other yellow shiny metals... And we all know what happens.

Although it's probably impossible to heat up an infinite amount of space that much.

And of course that changes the course of our system and that changes the course of the galaxy and that changes...It's turtles all the way down..

This topic has a good point and it's  being ruined by SCIENCE.

What happens when power is cheap to the point that you can run an overclocked GPU for a penny a year? That was what the question should have been as it's actually a good question. Does the value of bitcoin drop or does the price of the GPU back it then? And if so, what happens when the CPUs, GPUs and ASICs that "crack" those "passwords" are manufactured for $1 per minirig? What happens to Bitcoin and the network?

Other things become the limiting factors.

Energy may get to the point of being practically "free," but it will never be unlimited.

Suppose we are able to develop 100% efficient solar panels for 1 cent US per 100 square meters? At that point, the limiting factor won't so much be money or electricity as how much space you have to lay out solar panels.

Ditto for "zero point energy" or whatever it's called. What little I know of it suggests it relies on space... 8 cubic meters of space could generate 8x the power of 1 cubic meter of space, but that's it. At that point, the guy with the mansion has the edge on the guy with the tiny apartment. There still wouldn't be an infinite amount of hashing power coming online.

Of course, I'm fairly certain we could probably calculate some actual limit (I believe I've seen some maths on the threads that lean toward that.) There is a minimum energy expenditure per logic/math calculation, and we could probably determine a minimum hardware area/volume required per calculation as well.

Upshot of it all: hashing power will continue to go up, based in part on how much energy out of our productivity we (as a global society) choose to devote to mining. But there IS a hard limit, and there will still only be a new block every 10 minutes on average, and the price per bitcoin will still be primarily determined by demand, and little else.

Q: "What happens to Bitcoin when free energy is available?"
A: Nothing much.

The entire world changes. A total change in societal power structures. Bitcoin would be useful still, but it's cost of production would plummet to the cost of the rigs and time required to run them. Thus, the network difficulty would go vertical. And wind power is not free because you have to build turbines. Perhaps I am misunderstanding this concept. I am thinking in terms of a unlimited power source available to all.

Yeah exactly what i was trying to ask thanks for clearing that up matt.

The discovery of "Free Energy" would not change the world in an instant.

It would still take time to make enough machines to replace the existing energy infrastructure.

Things would gradually become cheaper and cheaper. There would still be a need for some kind of money in the economy.

Eventually after many years or decades things would become so cheap that money might become obsolete.

Since Free Energy would disrupt the existing power elites who connected to the financial elites, it's possible that people might choose Bitcoin as an alternative form of currency.

Most importantly though the discovery of Free Energy would change the mindset of people worldwide from one of scarcity to abundance.

Before we have "free energy" we will have AI beyond human capabilities. Bitcoin will evolve into a tool not for acquiring what you simply want, but instead what you really need. They will read your mind (at the very least through lie detection) and create a global economy that fosters self-actualization in civilization itself.

The grammar is incorrect in the title.  It should be "What happens to Bitcoin IF free energy is available?"  The premise that it's going to happen and is inevitable is inherently flawed, as no one has shown it works or is even possible.

If free energy becomes available then what happens to bitcoin is pretty much irrelevant: all of humanity will experience a revolution in living standards.

So the conclusion is physical space, and inital startup costs of "free" energy and assuming everything is usually costly that bitcoin diffuculty will raise slowly overtime. Causing basically no difference in supply and demand assuming miners are still receving block rewards(+transaction fees rewards). But if we are not recieving rewards and just transactions fee rewards then i guess with "free" energy bitcoins transactions would be inhertly unbreakable with free energy scince the whole world in theory could eventually aquire free energy over time and all help btc transactions.

More than likely the mining pools today will be the multi-national conglomerates of the future. We will all be slaves to them with our Brain Miner modules attached.

Apparently energy consumption can't keep growing at the current rate for more than a few centuries.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

Yes. Energy is about as cheap as it's ever going to be, regardless of technological advances.

Computing power efficiency, on the other hand, may increase enough to make energy seem much cheaper. Bitcoin has an in-built compensatory mechanism for this: Difficulty.

Energy requirements in the next half century poses a huge problem. 

MIT's Nocera promotes the idea of personal energy.  To leverage simplicity at the cost of efficiency to mass produce home-based power plants and likens it to the economy of scale of the McDonald's hamburger.

http://vimeo.com/8194089

Here is a recent related development: 2kw generator which consumes no fuel.
http://intalek.com/AuroraTekInfo/PUP3000UC_SpecSheet.pdf

The ROI is currently a little low, but like cellphones did, the price will come down as production ramps up.

For those who do not want to wait, build your own Open Source DC only version much cheaper.
Graham Gunderson has pledged to make his design Open Source in July 2015.

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/graham-gunderson

Estimated cost of materials is $200/kw for the DC only (no AC inverter) DIY Open Source design.

How about tesla powerwall.

Edit: not free, but at least gonna be much cheaper in future.

Energy is what drives economic production and innovation. If energy were to be truly free and unlimited, we would eventually attain something close to a post-scarcity economy although it would take us a while to get there. Prices for goods will continue to drop every year and the abundance of energy would accelerate advances in manufacturing and the creation of factories which would in turn drive this process even faster. It's likely that the role of money in such a society would change significantly, or it may become obsolete altogether.

If you want to think of the issue in terms of just mining rather than in a broader societal context (i.e. zero electricity costs for miners but everything else remains the same), then it wouldn't be all that different from today. Those with the most hashpower would still be mining the most blocks. And only those with lots of money already would be able to buy massive warehouses and fill them up with the latest machines - as both of these would still be limited in quantity.

There will never be free energy. Too many greedy people to allow that to happen.

Post-scarcity economy may change how society organize itself. Money will no longer be the prime motivation factor.

Energy can't be free. What can be is abundant, and we are going to get there eventually. When they try to tax stuff like the sun, they know they are lossing the battle and asking for a revolution. Fuck paying for the god damn sun! the sun is for everyone, everyone should be free to install solar panels and get "free" energy in the economical sense.

As for BTC, its only good news, since it means everyone being able to benefit from abundant energy without costs beyond the initial installation of the machine will be able to be a miner = stronger network.

free energy? no..sorry. you will have to always pay for infrastructure or some device, which will gather it from some nature sources. and don't forget one think is price and other one is limitation. in current setup, price is somehow limiting...and this will never change. ever.

Oh dear.

What happens when something that cannot physically happen, happens.


I think you've been reading too many conspiracy theories.

It depends how hot the sun is where you live. I know someone with solar panels who calculated they would pay for themselves in about 150 years. He doesn't live in a very hot country.

free energy ??

Water from river ??

I feel that he might be talking about perpetual motion nonsense.

then everyone would be jumping on a hardware, 1st to flip then using the profit to get a free hardware as small investment.

similar to the rush of how BFL`s back then when 5 gh/s, until everyone can get one on their hands.

i say this based on experience, and its cause theres limited hardware already available.

maybe everyone will use their free energy to mine and the difficulty would increase making mining with free energy will be 0.0001% profitable meaning it generally wont be worth it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

It would be able to do useful work.

If free energy Bitcoin and all other currencies are worthless,

why?

Free Energy implies infinite energy since demand will scale with price -> price to 0 -> infinite demand.
infinite Energy implies infinite resources, which in turn replies no wants or needs that cannot be instantly gratified at no cost.
No cost implies that currency,assets and ownership are meaningless.
It's a very different basis for an economy.

If this did really happen, and there was a way to get free energy, the mining scene would be done within less then a year also.

the question then becomes, what happens after all the bitcoin has been mined. does the market fee for transaction go up ridiculously to still support the network.

umm, you mean miners to work for you right lol.

But yeah, all this means is no one has to worry about on-going cost so pure profit regardless of value going up or down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_free_energy

resources are unlimited in Star Trek. They have replicators.

You mean what happens when the first and second laws of thermodynamics get repealed?

In case people are wondering OP probably means exotic regenerative energy technologies.
You can find many examples on the website http://pesn.com/ (http://pesn.com/)

To his answer his question, the initial arrival of such technologies will not affect the use of money much. Mining will still cost money, even if the electricity is really cheap, because you will still need to make the hardware. The difficulty will adjust accordingly.

In the long run, decades is my guess, money will become practically obsolete though, because "free energy" will make everything incredibly cheap. The bigger effect IMHO will be on the minds of people, having realized how much they have been deceived, and realizing that scarcity is artificial.

That's a typical utopian fallacy, frankly. Things are "incredibly cheap" already today in the western world if you think about it. Getting enough food is not a problem even for the poorest. Clothing neither (though still produced in sweatshops in the 3rd world unfortunately, but that issue will be solved also with automation). Housing may be the biggest cost factor of every day life. But the problem is not with the materials required for housing. It's about supply and demand. Living in the middle of nowhere is cheap. But if you need to live in or near the city, where infrastructure and jobs are, there is great demand, hence high prices. So some essential things will always remain scarce, even if only from a very subjective viewpoint.

Thanks for that link, looks interesting. Although why do websites like that always look a bit retro naff?

I can easily believe free energy is being supressed. Free energy (at least as I understand it doesnt mean anything about disobey laws of thermodynamics it just refers to endless abundance of ambiant energy/electricity around us.

Anyway with regards to bitcoin who knows? Id guess free energy would make money less important. Probably main reason it is repressed.

Lol you are delusional. More and more poverty is appearing in so called "first world countries". You can find tons of poverty in Greece, and even spain, portugal, etc and it will keep spreading as time goes on and we see austerity measures are a scam, without even considering the elephant in the room: the future and even current fact of automation replacing jobs forever.

In similar theme of free energy suppression. Mainstream science still failing to acknowledge role of electricity in space. Mainstream tells us particles reaching earth from the sun is a 'wind' when in fact it is a stream of charged particles, usually called an electric current. When electricity  and magnetism are considered suddenly there is no need to invoke dark matter, dark energy or any other shit like that. Just forces we already know and experience. Our planet is a capacitor in an electric circuit.

Great resources on this here, some of it truely mind blowing.

https://www.thunderbolts.info
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvHqXK_Hz79tjqRosK4tWYA

I would like data calculations on how much khash could we get with passive free energy like if everyone installed solar panels and windmills on their homes. Together maybe we could keep Bitcoin alive with all that energy the universe provides for free.

I guess we're speaking  about some utopian future image ,which is hardly able to happen

The bitcoin would remain the same, nothing much would change. But the biggest profit taker would once again be mining equipment producers.
Bitcoin price is defined by currently mined coins, equipment costs, and energy costs, scratch one down, and obviously, as you can predict, the price of miners would skyrocket, but the price.. i believe it would remain about the same.

cheers

something that is better not be real, because with such scenario miners could dump indefinitely, all the way down to zero, especially if they roi'ed

at least until the halving arrive and cut their dumping dream

Free energy ? what the fuck ? get that crazy talk out of your head...

that's not going to happen (probably never ever), and if it did i don't think that will be in my lifetime or the next.

Energy is a resource, and someone somewhere will try to monetize it for profit, whether the cost of production is high, low, or even free (nothing is free regardless). So it is impossible.

People are killed for having the free energy dream, it is already either A, already with us designed years ago by Tesla, B, still being worked on but very close, I believe A, and it will never be released to us average joes because that is what helps control us.

There were electrical cars with good functional designs before tesla.

The free energy from the sun is not free only because of the fictitious tax of the powerful, that want to keep scamming the poor guaranteeing they pay everything.
If they don't let us enjoy the energy provided by the sun, what we need is a revolution. Fuck paying taxes for having solar panels. No one should pay for that. Fuck the electricity monopoly. Im not paying for shit.

What happens to Bitcoin when free energy is available?

Miners will make more money

btw, if you're interested in Free Energy, you should help Teslacoin and the TeslaStarter project. It's about crowfunding Free Energy projects and companies

http://www.teslacointalk.org/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778053.new#new

If free energy happens, theres operations that obviously will happen like KNC becomes wanting to be a monpoly.

or taking up majority market to mine more then the average joe will have coin in their life time.

I think if anything he means like a discounted rate of energy use then free.

Nothing is free like you mentioned, so Imma assume he meant like energy savers that still allows mining like possible with solar maybe.

im pretty sure this is all hypothetical suggestions if it were to happen.

obviously we know energy isnt free nor anything will be free. But, if energy was free I think not just mining bitcoin changes, but the whole world with keep lights on 24/7 changes lol.

I think it might be the end of the world and bitcoin dooms with it too, as we all go the same direction.

You need to properly define ,what you mean by the free energy? And free energy will cause an uprising in the society which would be impossible to handle. Imaging free electricity.

lol funny but turkmenistan is a country ( i am not from it ) but some days ago there was an article on paper about this country turkmenistan there are free water, wifi, and electricity and then i later searched on google and found out yes this news was rite they really have free electricity for household user not for industry but you can mine at home rite ? :D

Maybe you will soon be able to try this out:
https://www.facebook.com/FreeEnergyTruth/photos/a.10151888218213026.1073741826.192446108025/10153174777293026/?type=1&fref=nf&pnref=story

Monkey Energy

I remember the hype from 2006, that was fun.
Irish scammers are best scammers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTjYHnpJjEE

http://www.teslacointalk.org/topic/119/free-energy-videos

Open your minds guys, this will be the next revolution after btc

Decentralization of energy system!!  ;)

metal used to manufacture the ASICs will still cost money right?

metal? heavy metal?

Username checks out.

http://sunferno.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ad3.jpg

but it won't matter when one of those reach roi, because that roi can pay for the new machine and so on, also i believe that aside from the chips everything else has not an heavy cost, on the opposite is very cheap

And the chip is also only expensive because of the R&D and relatively low volume compared to consumer grade chips.

What about a modular ASIC where you only need to swap the chip? That would make everything cheaper, including shipping.