Bitcoin Forum

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.


I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.


Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

What statute does this violate?

I doubt its illegal. You might violate some companies terms of service though.


Trading bitcointalk.org accounts is allowed because a ban of those trades is considered unenforcable. It would be impossible for mods to enforce the rule, because sales would just happen elsewhere. It is however discouraged for the reason you stated. It allows someone to buy a trust rating.


Selling a "trusted" paypal account is certainly not a crime. Many things are used for money laundering and illegal things. I hear knifes are dangerous killing instruments, yet people use them daily to butter their bread. Dont jump to conclusions, I cant speak for paypal, but most bitcointalk account sales probably happen for paid signatures.

I agree with what you are saying, but it seams that we are just a few people, and its not like we can make forum owners to change the rules because we want them to.
If its of any value, i also give my vote to no longer allow account trades of any sort, because it can be used for nothing good.

When i do bussiness with someone, i want it to be that person, and not someone that just bought that account, and selling things like paypal accounts is only going to do damage to this forum because its not only wrong, but also illegal, and this forum shouldnt support activities as shady as that.

cheers

@bold: I meant Verified PayPal account. I am not jumping to conclusions dear but accounts which are verified and sold, can easily be used for Money Laundering purposes.

And about Knives being used to butter a bread and that being compared to buying an account? LOL

One may use a knife to commit a crime but in that case, the company or brand who manufactured the knife or sold the knife is not blamed. In the case of an account, the person who originally owns the account is blamed if the buyer is a fraud.

The problem for Mods is determining what is illegal, against someone's TOS, or legitimate. It would become their only job all day long. What I do is take note that an old, trusted account means nothing at all. Never trade based on trust. Satoshi's whole idea was a trust-less system.

I do think it's unethical even when it's legal. I will not sell my account, I may some day delete it, but not sell. I can only imagine why some one would pay me a few hundred bucks for it.  

That's what I am trying to say. If tomorrow anybody files a complaint with PayPal, Amazon or any other website about the illegal activities going on here, it may cause the forum to be shut down. Too many illegal activities will ruin this forum which can be of help to many of us. I don't want it to happen.

For the forum rules is not wrong but for a question of morality is not 100% right. However the unique thing that I can tell you is : use always an escrow also if you are trading with a Hero/Legendary member (and you will be safe, because it doesn't matter if he/she bought the account).

Hats of to you for saying this. I too will never sell my account as I believe it's not right and unethical to do so. For me, my reputation and self respect is worth more than the dollars that will be offered to me in exchange.

This is why we can't have nice things.

There are many cases of selling other peoples paypal accounts, many with linked bank accounts and CC , in what country is this not illegal ?
And when it comes to bitcointalk account selling just to be able to participate on a sig. campaign, dont u think the owner of the campaign would want to know to whom he is paying?

cheers

You guys should know that even if trading a bitcointalk account is forbidden, lots of people will still do it underground, people tend to violates the rules

Selling bitcointalk account is not illegal as per forum rules, you can consider it immoral though. I would not fully agree as most of the time it is not to scam that people are buying accounts.

With theft forbidden, many people still do it.  If I'm following your logic, we should legalise theft, rape, murder, etc., etc.
Condoning multiple accounts is fail, allowing accounts to be openly sold, right on the forum is just...

comparing murder/rape (there is a clear victim) to selling accounts is hilarious.
anybody doing business here should always use escrow. there where also cases where people used hacked accounts to scam.

if you make a rule (selling forbidden) that you cant enforce nobody will take your other rules seriously.

i have no problems with account selling (i did it once with a hero account) because if i trade/talk to someone here i dont trust his trust/activity or post history.

Saying that people will do it underground makes no sense as a wrong thing is wrong. Making it legal out here does not make it right in anyway. People who want to scam or do illegal things will do it no matter what's the outcome but by imposing a law/rule may make things better.


We have a legal system in every country but still people commit a crime knowing that they will be punished. So does it mean that there should be no legal system in any country?

Ok apparently the argument did not come across the first time. Let me try again: Bitcoin can easily be used for money laundering purposes, we should ban bitcoin.


Which is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you blame someone for selling their account if the new owner does shenanigans with it?


Unethical and illegal are two very different things. I would not sell my account either even though I have no ethical problems with it. Its just that I tend to get attached and would not want anyone else "in" it.

One legit reason would be for profit. The signature of a legendary account is worth more than the signature of a Jr. Member. You have less restrictions regarding the frequence you can post.


Marketplace rule #1

[1]

Violating some companies ToS might not be legal in my country. E.g. steam does not allow me to sell games I bought there. My countries laws however are pretty clear in that regard. I own that copy of the game and it is my right to sell it. Steam does not allow me to sell an individual game. Selling or buying a Steam account is thus not illegal in my country but at best in a grey area and whether the sale would break any laws would have to be determined in a courtroom. Trading PayPal accounts might be similarly a grey area in certain areas of the world.


Its not allways possible to have everyting


As stated above I am not sure about paypal, if their terms of service state something that is not applicable in your country that part is nil. I dont know american law, I know enough of my countries law though to know that many ToS of internation companies have some clause that is nil. Especially regarding data privacy, but thats a different topic.

In regards to signature campaigns, they usually dont ask for details. Most here are pseudonymous anyway, what does a new pseudonym matter?


[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3629.0

in case of steam don't count on this!
in germany (where i live) tos doesnt count too (any text presented AFTER i paid is nothing), but if steam sees someone selling his account they just ban him regardless.

they argue that you did NOT buy the game: you just lend it.

i've not yet seen someone buying a dvd, register it through steam and tries to sell it. if he goes to court he might win (but ONLY if he did buy it in a shop - NEVER for games bought in steams online shop page, because they clearly state they only lend them out)

I personally think selling accounts is wrong and hurtful to the community but it is what it is.

If you find it nonsense, then I'll need to tell PayPal and other websites as well that their TOC is utter nonsense right?

I am not only talking about bitcointalk accounts but also about all those accounts of websites that find it illegal and against their TOC.


For eg: If anyone gives their house on rent (which is legal) to a wrong person, what would be the outcome? Not only the person who was staying in the house will be blamed but also the person who owns the house. You will say that the owner has nothing to do with the crime but without any verification, selling/renting anything is considered wrong.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2011/02/dnf-balls-of-steel-na-530w.jpg

bought in store (online shop in austria, shipped to germany), had to register via steam in order to play it, wana buy it?

Im not actually going to sell, because its key would allow you to change the mail and password to my steam account. Steams ToS is unbelievable in that regard.


Im not sure what you want to tell me here. I dont care if you tell paypal their ToS are utter nonsense. Their employees probably agree after a few beer.


Again: If its illegal you can report it. Im just not sure we have the same understanding of illegal.


I assume you are saying: I have a house and let to a criminal. They signed a proper contract and all paperwork is correct.


What? Where do you live? If I go and start burning down cars in my hood tomorrow, why would my landlord be to blame?

While it could be argued that rules against alt accounts are unenforceable, there's nothing unenforceable about rules against selling bitcointalk accounts on bitcointalk.  These rules are enforced the same way rules against posting and selling child porn are enforced:  You delete the post & ban the account responsible.
Easy peasy.

that would lead to:

 - stupid people would trust trust/activity more and get scammed more likely

 - mods / people like Quickseller would have a harder time to catch scams from such accounts

 - people would get pm's bribing them to sell their account (or they would use gox leaked email list, bitcointalk public mails and so on -> more bitcoin related spam in my inboxes)

i always prefer transparency.

@Bold: LOL! What I'm trying to say either you are not able to understand or don't wish to understand. PayPal has created their ToS taking into account the law & regulations. They have not imposed certain rules that are illogical. Whether a person follows those rules or not, that's the person's mistake but PayPal's rules are right by not letting money laundering.

@Green: People sometimes don't go through the paper work to save money just as some who sell their account don't bother to check who their buyer is.

@Red: I hope you don't do that  :D I'm just trying to say that if my PayPal or any account in that case which verifies my identity as a person is sold to a fraud or criminal, I will be interrogated if not arrested no matter which country I belong to.

I think it is good that we are allowed to do such things in the forum but I agree it is not good that people scam using bought accounts.

People can scam with new accounts but then again some people just want I earn money from the signature campaign. As selling accounts does not violate any terms and is legal I think it's good :)

As absurd as saying that laws against murder give a false sense of security, thus making it easier for murdered to kill.  You even try, bro?


Just how stupid is this Quickseller?  How clueless do you imagine the mods to be?


My inbox is not flooded with offers of child porn, even though selling CP in digital goods is forbidden (AFAIK).  Why is that, you suppose?

we dont agree on this one.
and yes: if there wherent any laws against murder or rape i'd feel more insecure in the streets.

btw i am not your bro.


this has nothing to do with stupidity.
but as you are that intelligent please tell me how a mod can see that an account is in the possession of someone else?

hint: scammers dont change email, website, bitcoin address and such things


i am sure that if you where in a cp forum registered with your email that you would get such spam.
i dont know that for sure because i dont visit them... but it seems logical.

So you're saying scrap laws against murder and rape, to remind everyone there are murderers and rapists out there?  And maybe even, you know, as a reminder, decimate the dumb sheeple once in a while, for their own safety.  So they'd be super sure not to drop their guard?
Sorry about that typo, btw, meant to say fagit, not bro.


You mean, how can a mod delete a thread advertising to sell accounts?  And how could a mod ban users advertising such a service?
Are you sure you don't want to try tackling this riddle yourself?  I'll help if you get stuck :)


This forum is about account fraud & scamming?  I just assumed bitcointalk was about Bitcoin, but now that you put it that way...
Live and learn, I guess :-\

There is no such thing as "the law". There are so many laws and regulations on this planet PayPal has a ToS that is compliant with a fraction of them.
Example: German (and european) privacy rights allow me to enforce a complete deletion of all personal information about my person with any company that is doing business in germany (and/or europe). I also have the right to know which personal information is stored on their system, where they got it, what they do with it etc. I did not personally try it with Paypal, but I as DER SPIEGEL[1] writes they do not comply. Paypal has created their ToS in order to suit Paypal, they dont give a shit about laws unless they have to.

But lets get back to your money laundering example and that it is the only legit reason someone would ever want to buy a verified paypal account. Say someone is not an adult yet, but does online trades for various (legal!) digital items, after a while they understand that there is more profit in paypal trades and more and more "customers" ask whether they could pay with paypal. Their parents would not find the power button on a computer and would never transfer any data online, let alone credit card information or bank account details. Why not buy an account?

I know this is far fetched, but just because I cant come up with a good reason to buy a paypal account and you think it can only be used for money laundering does not make these trades banworthy. There might be a multitude of reasons. You sound like those people claiming the "deep web" can only be used for illegal activities while completly forgetting that in some countries it is illegal to think differently than your lord and master the dictator.

Besides that, how many Paypal Account deals are here anyway?


I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say here. Explain to me what check I should conduct in order to make sure the buyer is legit(?). Request an ID?


Selling your identity is not a good idea, sure. There might be questions, probably years later when you have no idea what they are about. I doubt someone will come, kick your door in and arrest you on the spot no matter who you sold your paypal account to. Besides that a phone number must not be linked to your person, a mail address and also a bitcointalk.org account must neither. Yet you want to ban all of them.


How indeed would an bitcointalk.org mod ban the sale of an account that is done on another board?

[1] http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/paypal-kuendigung-unmoeglich-a-851542.html

you are very good at twisting words... if you instead would try to understand what i say....
but ok... i dont speak english well so i'll blame myself and try again:

at first: we both know its easy to delete threads selling accounts here. try to do that somewhere else and you'll see how easy it is to really ban it. (btw. if it would be possible to really prohibit it i'd also like to see a rule that forbids selling accounts)

laws about murder and rape are there to remind people who want to rape and kill that there will be people hunting and (trying to) prosecute them. i still think this is a bad example because there is a victim. in the case of an account seller there is no victim. IF the buyer starts to scam THEN there is a victim but the actual trade is just a trade: nothing more or less.

he could also buy a knife <- allowed
kill with a knife <- forbidden
craft a knife and kill with it <- forbidden

buy account <- allowed
scam with an account <- forbidden
create an account and scam with it <- forbidden

and yes: for scammers this forum is about scamming other people (even if they dont talk about that here - at least the most dont)

Precrime sounds pretty Orwellian (Philip K. Dickish, i guess), but it's fairly practical.  Here's why:

he could also buy a knife <- allowed
-he could buy a AK <- allowed
-he can buy 100 banana clips & double them up with duct tape <- allowed, no victim no crime
-he can walk down the street with all this faggotry, spraying rounds <- allowed, no victim no crime
-he can kill someone <-not allowed, but 'til he does, we'd be practicing precrime, which is a bad thing, so we won't do it.

Drunk driving @100mph down Main st. with an AK & shooting off bursts <- allowed, because no victim yet, precrime.
Diddling loli <- allowed, don't need no nanny state pushing its mores on muh freedomz, no victim if loli cool with it.

It's commonsensical to assume that a sold account will be used nefariously.  There's also no guarantee it won't be put in a mason jar & become a beautiful work of art.  But I'd rather risk infringing on the freedoms of one budding artiste than live in a wasteland of [99% predictable] scam.

Sorry for the tangent/rant, just nurturing my inner Nazi.  Don't hate, tolerate :)

no its not.
most people i see use it for sig-campaigns or promoting altcoins (thats what my old hero account did). and as long as they post useful stuff i am ok with it (in the spirit of: http://xkcd.com/810/)

you say precrime is bad: i think the same.
but: forbidding account selling sounds like law & order to me.

if there is no victim: why judge?
governments also tend to forbid things people might use nefariously and i am strictly against it.

i dont have a problem with your inner nazi ;) IMHO tolerance is the most important thing between people (because all are different). why dont just tolerate account buying :D

(btw [a little out of context] imagine a really(!) poor family.. if they can make a few dollars from a sig campaign they might be able to send their kids to school... and what they think about btc then should be obvious)

Ah, so you have a pony in this race.  Gotcha.
Nah, bro.  Selling aged accounts to be turned into spambots is plain wrong.  No excuse for that, no explanation necessary.  It's not even crime, just petty vandalism.
The only way for it to be less wrong is if, instead of advertising some ponzi in clashing colors abhorrent to nature, the sig space openly stated:

lol... it took you that long to realize it?
i wrote it in my first post in this thread...

anyhow... you have your opionion i have mine ;)

but i know people like you... you are the one blaming the girl who gets raped for wearing sexy clothes... its the same... but you dont want to hear another opinion so i'll just leave you now.

"Girl wearing sexy closes" hahahahaha!  Were did you get that?

http://s4.postimg.org/kdk7zk67h/ohwow.jpg

This is Bitcoin brah, only hideous, postmenstrual whores already in their cups.  
Girls have left a while ago, the keg's dry, the party over, the janitor's  waiting for the last scragglers to GTFO so he can mop up the vomit.
And yes, it's partially thanks to YOU. :D