Selling accounts is wrong or right?

[erikalui]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.


I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.


Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

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[Quickseller]

What statute does this violate?

[shorena]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.

I doubt its illegal. You might violate some companies terms of service though.

I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.

Trading bitcointalk.org accounts is allowed because a ban of those trades is considered unenforcable. It would be impossible for mods to enforce the rule, because sales would just happen elsewhere. It is however discouraged for the reason you stated. It allows someone to buy a trust rating.

Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

Selling a "trusted" paypal account is certainly not a crime. Many things are used for money laundering and illegal things. I hear knifes are dangerous killing instruments, yet people use them daily to butter their bread. Dont jump to conclusions, I cant speak for paypal, but most bitcointalk account sales probably happen for paid signatures.

[ajareselde]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.


I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.


Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

I agree with what you are saying, but it seams that we are just a few people, and its not like we can make forum owners to change the rules because we want them to.
If its of any value, i also give my vote to no longer allow account trades of any sort, because it can be used for nothing good.

When i do bussiness with someone, i want it to be that person, and not someone that just bought that account, and selling things like paypal accounts is only going to do damage to this forum because its not only wrong, but also illegal, and this forum shouldnt support activities as shady as that.

cheers

[erikalui]

I doubt its illegal. You might violate some companies terms of service though.



Trading bitcointalk.org accounts is allowed because a ban of those trades is considered unenforcable. It would be impossible for mods to enforce the rule, because sales would just happen elsewhere. It is however discouraged for the reason you stated. It allows someone to buy a trust rating.



Selling a "trusted" paypal account is certainly not a crime. Many things are used for money laundering and illegal things. I hear knifes are dangerous killing instruments, yet people use them daily to butter their bread. Dont jump to conclusions, I cant speak for paypal, but most bitcointalk account sales probably happen for paid signatures.

@bold: I meant Verified PayPal account. I am not jumping to conclusions dear but accounts which are verified and sold, can easily be used for Money Laundering purposes.

And about Knives being used to butter a bread and that being compared to buying an account? LOL

One may use a knife to commit a crime but in that case, the company or brand who manufactured the knife or sold the knife is not blamed. In the case of an account, the person who originally owns the account is blamed if the buyer is a fraud.

[RodeoX]

The problem for Mods is determining what is illegal, against someone's TOS, or legitimate. It would become their only job all day long. What I do is take note that an old, trusted account means nothing at all. Never trade based on trust. Satoshi's whole idea was a trust-less system.

I do think it's unethical even when it's legal. I will not sell my account, I may some day delete it, but not sell. I can only imagine why some one would pay me a few hundred bucks for it.  

[erikalui]

I agree with what you are saying, but it seams that we are just a few people, and its not like we can make forum owners to change the rules because we want them to.
If its of any value, i also give my vote to no longer allow account trades of any sort, because it can be used for nothing good.

When i do bussiness with someone, i want it to be that person, and not someone that just bought that account, and selling things like paypal accounts is only going to do damage to this forum because its not only wrong, but also illegal, and this forum shouldnt support activities as shady as that.

cheers

That's what I am trying to say. If tomorrow anybody files a complaint with PayPal, Amazon or any other website about the illegal activities going on here, it may cause the forum to be shut down. Too many illegal activities will ruin this forum which can be of help to many of us. I don't want it to happen.

[redsn0w]

For the forum rules is not wrong but for a question of morality is not 100% right. However the unique thing that I can tell you is : use always an escrow also if you are trading with a Hero/Legendary member (and you will be safe, because it doesn't matter if he/she bought the account).

[erikalui]

The problem for Mods is determining what is illegal, against someone's TOS, or legitimate. It would become their only job all day long. What I do is take note that an old, trusted account means nothing at all. Never trade based on trust. Satoshi's whole idea was a trust-less system.

I do think it's unethical even when it's legal. I will not sell my account, I may some day delete it, but not sell. I can only imagine why some one would pay me a few hundred bucks for it.  

Hats of to you for saying this. I too will never sell my account as I believe it's not right and unethical to do so. For me, my reputation and self respect is worth more than the dollars that will be offered to me in exchange.

[NotLambchop]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.

I doubt its illegal. You might violate some companies terms of service though.

I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.

Trading bitcointalk.org accounts is allowed because a ban of those trades is considered unenforcable. It would be impossible for mods to enforce the rule, because sales would just happen elsewhere. It is however discouraged for the reason you stated. It allows someone to buy a trust rating.

Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

Selling a "trusted" paypal account is certainly not a crime. Many things are used for money laundering and illegal things. I hear knifes are dangerous killing instruments, yet people use them daily to butter their bread. Dont jump to conclusions, I cant speak for paypal, but most bitcointalk account sales probably happen for paid signatures.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[ajareselde]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.

I doubt its illegal. You might violate some companies terms of service though.

I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.

Trading bitcointalk.org accounts is allowed because a ban of those trades is considered unenforcable. It would be impossible for mods to enforce the rule, because sales would just happen elsewhere. It is however discouraged for the reason you stated. It allows someone to buy a trust rating.

Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

Selling a "trusted" paypal account is certainly not a crime. Many things are used for money laundering and illegal things. I hear knifes are dangerous killing instruments, yet people use them daily to butter their bread. Dont jump to conclusions, I cant speak for paypal, but most bitcointalk account sales probably happen for paid signatures.

There are many cases of selling other peoples paypal accounts, many with linked bank accounts and CC , in what country is this not illegal ?
And when it comes to bitcointalk account selling just to be able to participate on a sig. campaign, dont u think the owner of the campaign would want to know to whom he is paying?

cheers

[erwin45hacked]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.


I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.


Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

I agree with what you are saying, but it seams that we are just a few people, and its not like we can make forum owners to change the rules because we want them to.
If its of any value, i also give my vote to no longer allow account trades of any sort, because it can be used for nothing good.

When i do bussiness with someone, i want it to be that person, and not someone that just bought that account, and selling things like paypal accounts is only going to do damage to this forum because its not only wrong, but also illegal, and this forum shouldnt support activities as shady as that.

cheers

You guys should know that even if trading a bitcointalk account is forbidden, lots of people will still do it underground, people tend to violates the rules

[picolo]

I feel left out here because I consider selling any account illegal. People in the Digital Goods section sell their forum account, Amazon account, Phone Numbers, Email accounts, PayPal accounts and I don't know how many more accounts are being sold and bought.


I can't get why is this allowed? I have just witnessed a "Trusted" member who sold his account and the buyer was indeed a scammer who tried scamming another member with the help of the Trusted account. I don't know how many times has it happened here.


Selling Trusted PayPal accounts is the biggest blunder as the buyer can use it for money laundering and illegal things while the seller will be blamed for those deeds and it is a CRIME.

Selling bitcointalk account is not illegal as per forum rules, you can consider it immoral though. I would not fully agree as most of the time it is not to scam that people are buying accounts.

[NotLambchop]

...
You guys should know that even if trading a bitcointalk account is forbidden, lots of people will still do it underground, people tend to violates the rules

With theft forbidden, many people still do it.  If I'm following your logic, we should legalise theft, rape, murder, etc., etc.
Condoning multiple accounts is fail, allowing accounts to be openly sold, right on the forum is just...

...
This is why we can't have nice things.

[onemorexmr]

...
You guys should know that even if trading a bitcointalk account is forbidden, lots of people will still do it underground, people tend to violates the rules

With theft forbidden, many people still do it.  If I'm following your logic, we should legalise theft, rape, murder, etc., etc.
Condoning multiple accounts is fail, allowing accounts to be openly sold, right on the forum is just...

...
This is why we can't have nice things.

comparing murder/rape (there is a clear victim) to selling accounts is hilarious.
anybody doing business here should always use escrow. there where also cases where people used hacked accounts to scam.

if you make a rule (selling forbidden) that you cant enforce nobody will take your other rules seriously.

i have no problems with account selling (i did it once with a hero account) because if i trade/talk to someone here i dont trust his trust/activity or post history.

[erikalui]

...
You guys should know that even if trading a bitcointalk account is forbidden, lots of people will still do it underground, people tend to violates the rules

Saying that people will do it underground makes no sense as a wrong thing is wrong. Making it legal out here does not make it right in anyway. People who want to scam or do illegal things will do it no matter what's the outcome but by imposing a law/rule may make things better.


We have a legal system in every country but still people commit a crime knowing that they will be punished. So does it mean that there should be no legal system in any country?

[shorena]

-snip-
@bold: I meant Verified PayPal account. I am not jumping to conclusions dear but accounts which are verified and sold, can easily be used for Money Laundering purposes.

Ok apparently the argument did not come across the first time. Let me try again: Bitcoin can easily be used for money laundering purposes, we should ban bitcoin.

-snip-
In the case of an account, the person who originally owns the account is blamed if the buyer is a fraud.

Which is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you blame someone for selling their account if the new owner does shenanigans with it?

The problem for Mods is determining what is illegal, against someone's TOS, or legitimate. It would become their only job all day long. What I do is take note that an old, trusted account means nothing at all. Never trade based on trust. Satoshi's whole idea was a trust-less system.

I do think it's unethical even when it's legal. I will not sell my account, I may some day delete it, but not sell. I can only imagine why some one would pay me a few hundred bucks for it. 

Unethical and illegal are two very different things. I would not sell my account either even though I have no ethical problems with it. Its just that I tend to get attached and would not want anyone else "in" it.

One legit reason would be for profit. The signature of a legendary account is worth more than the signature of a Jr. Member. You have less restrictions regarding the frequence you can post.

-snip-
That's what I am trying to say. If tomorrow anybody files a complaint with PayPal, Amazon or any other website about the illegal activities going on here, it may cause the forum to be shut down. Too many illegal activities will ruin this forum which can be of help to many of us. I don't want it to happen.

Marketplace rule #1

Trading of goods that are illegal in the seller's or buyer's country is forbidden.

[1]

Violating some companies ToS might not be legal in my country. E.g. steam does not allow me to sell games I bought there. My countries laws however are pretty clear in that regard. I own that copy of the game and it is my right to sell it. Steam does not allow me to sell an individual game. Selling or buying a Steam account is thus not illegal in my country but at best in a grey area and whether the sale would break any laws would have to be determined in a courtroom. Trading PayPal accounts might be similarly a grey area in certain areas of the world.

-snip-
This is why we can't have nice things.

Its not allways possible to have everyting

-snip-
There are many cases of selling other peoples paypal accounts, many with linked bank accounts and CC , in what country is this not illegal ?
And when it comes to bitcointalk account selling just to be able to participate on a sig. campaign, dont u think the owner of the campaign would want to know to whom he is paying?

cheers

As stated above I am not sure about paypal, if their terms of service state something that is not applicable in your country that part is nil. I dont know american law, I know enough of my countries law though to know that many ToS of internation companies have some clause that is nil. Especially regarding data privacy, but thats a different topic.

In regards to signature campaigns, they usually dont ask for details. Most here are pseudonymous anyway, what does a new pseudonym matter?


[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3629.0

[onemorexmr]

Violating some companies ToS might not be legal in my country. E.g. steam does not allow me to sell games I bought there. My countries laws however are pretty clear in that regard. I own that copy of the game and it is my right to sell it. Steam does not allow me to sell an individual game. Selling or buying a Steam account is thus not illegal in my country but at best in a grey area and whether the sale would break any laws would have to be determined in a courtroom. Trading PayPal accounts might be similarly a grey area in certain areas of the world.

in case of steam don't count on this!
in germany (where i live) tos doesnt count too (any text presented AFTER i paid is nothing), but if steam sees someone selling his account they just ban him regardless.

they argue that you did NOT buy the game: you just lend it.

i've not yet seen someone buying a dvd, register it through steam and tries to sell it. if he goes to court he might win (but ONLY if he did buy it in a shop - NEVER for games bought in steams online shop page, because they clearly state they only lend them out)

[PenguinFire]

I personally think selling accounts is wrong and hurtful to the community but it is what it is.

[erikalui]

-snip-
In the case of an account, the person who originally owns the account is blamed if the buyer is a fraud.

Which is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you blame someone for selling their account if the new owner does shenanigans with it?

If you find it nonsense, then I'll need to tell PayPal and other websites as well that their TOC is utter nonsense right?

I am not only talking about bitcointalk accounts but also about all those accounts of websites that find it illegal and against their TOC.


For eg: If anyone gives their house on rent (which is legal) to a wrong person, what would be the outcome? Not only the person who was staying in the house will be blamed but also the person who owns the house. You will say that the owner has nothing to do with the crime but without any verification, selling/renting anything is considered wrong.