Cool. Thanks.  There are some wrong facts in there. Who is the guy I can talk to in order to have them corrected? I am actively editing the wiki. I am pretty sure those facts are correct. 720 block confirmation times for Nxt. Where did you get that from? technically speaking 720 blocks isn't actually the comparable confirmation time. 1440 blocks makes a transaction immutable with bitshares when there is a delegate participation rate over 80% only 1 block confirmation is needed. worst case scenario given poor delegate participation 51 block confirmations would be need. |
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how is the centralization an issue? i want you to really think hard about that question. the point of the making these systems decentralized is so that there is no one point of failure and no one point of control. with dpos you get that since delegates have an easy task that can be audited by all clients on the network. delegates can not sign two blocks or they will be fired, so the cannot double spend. delegates cannot stop processing transactions or they will get voted out for a delegated that can. delegates are neither a central point of failure or control. the network is secured by the shareholders. as a result of this structure you have a more scalable system.
nxt is adding new features that will make the transaction sizes excessive. while i was generous to leave transactions per second at 3.4. the base transaction size is 160 bytes, but there are transaction types that can be as large as 10KiB, limiting the block to only 3 of these transaction - thats 0.05 tps. the largest transaction size for bitshares is 340 bytes.
both from a design and technical standpoint bitshares is more scalable than nxt. while you can say that nxt is more decentralized, bitshares is more secure.
if the comparison chart assumes anything at all it assumes the worst possible scenario for bitshares and the best possible scenario for competitors. everything in the bitshares column aside from market pegged assets has been tested on public test network.
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Cool. Thanks. There are some wrong facts in there. Who is the guy I can talk to in order to have them corrected? I am actively editing the wiki. I am pretty sure those facts are correct. |
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Cool, What would you say, in your opinion, is the best system in terms of decentralisation and performance out there at the moment?
My opinion would be called biased if I said it's NXT. I see BitShares has achieved a pretty good decentralization level compared to Bitcoin. Will it be good enough in the future? Only time can tell. Certainly, 101 delegated nodes are far more difficult to compromise than just 2 biggest Bitcoin pools. It's not 100% decentralization, but I guess many people will find it decent enough to use. please see the following comparison of the bitshares blockchain vs other platforms. it will serve to better elucidate why pts & ags are good investments. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms |
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You mean the bitshares X that was supposed to be released back in February? The one where, everyone like you bought up PTS from people like me to get it before the snap shot but then never got anything for it? That bitshares X? Getting burned once wasn't enough, you need to come back for more?
Anyways, as that guy said, there is little reason to argue about this. PTS is currently trading at 0.0069BTC on Cryptsy, we can all just come back in a month or two and see what new low it has achieved.
At least you managed to get in their private party. I am quite regular on this forum and completely missed it. Thats because the forum has been flooded with junk. BitShares was announced a year ago. you can still donate funds to the ecosystem through BitShares AGS . BitShares has the longest and most open funding model of any of the next generation projects. I suggest you acquire AGS while they are still cheap and available. The AGS crowdfunding ends in less than two weeks. |
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How are you basing your ROI calculations on? How do these DAC generate the profit for you?
They don't. But the bags are getting sooooooo heavy....... Brian have you done any research into BitShares? I don't think you have. Or you would understand why pts is extremely undervalued and this is a good entry point for investing in next generation blockchain technology. Bitshares-PTS is a simple clone of bitcoin. Its specs are not where it gets its value from. The value of PTS comes from the fact that it gives you a share of future distributed autonomous companies that are being launched by Invictus Innovation and other developers using the bitshares_toolkit. I encourage you to check out the alfa testing that is going on currently. None of those "distributed autonomous companies" exist. PTS gives you stake in non existent companies, hence its non existent value. I wonder, can I buy these companies that don't exist yet, with dollars that don't exist yet? I'm guessing that while they expect you to take their word that you will eventually get something, they don't take IOUs but only hard cash. Funny how these scams always work the same way. Some major enhancements to the blockchain technology have already been implemented that make it much better than any other crypto-currnency/crypto-equity platforms to date...
Yea sure. Something like 400 altcoins exist and they all promise to be "major enhancements to blockchain technology". Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but no one cares because you can't actually buy anything with them. The BitShares platform uses Delegated Proof of Stake ( http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/), which allows for greater, more effiecient security and transaction processing than bitcoin at a fraction of the cost. Blocks are produced every 15 seconds and *full* confirmation is around 12 minutes. Except the devs fucked up the difficulty re targeting so no one is mining it. So transactions now take literally DAYS to confirm, not seconds or minutes. Your first clue that they don't care should have been when they never fixed this. Listen, I do appreciate PTS for what it was. For a brief window of about 3 or 4 weeks, it was *immensely* profitable to mine. I probably made more BTC in that one month mining PTS than I have made mining everything else put together before and since. But come on that's all it ever was, a quick buck for the devs that the rest of us could ride along for. When they took the snapshot and then never released the DAC that should have finally clarified for you that there was no substance behind the hype. But then in that 3 day window when the difficulty was normalized, there people like you were again, still buying. So I get it, I get that you bought into the hype and bought these coins, and I appreciate that. But the time to get out was months ago, back when you still had a chance of convincing people that these DACs were real. Not now, after every deadline has been missed and no one believes it anymore. It amuses me when I see you and the other pumpers trying to build up this coin so you can dump it off on some other unsuspecting new person. Of course you all deny that's what you're doing but come on. Really? If you seriously believed all the hype about this coin that you spew, you wouldn't be altruistically sharing that information with us and thus diluting your own profits, you would just buy the coins quietly and keep your mouth shut. You wouldn't be advertising, you would be hoping no one else notices! Anyways, you want to make money in this game? Ditch the shitcoins and buy BTC. It's a currency, not a fucking social movement or the answer to all of life's questions even the ones you didn't ask yet, so it doesn't have all the cute gimmicks. It doesn't have some fake anonymity, or puny interest rate, or DACs, or shitty video games built into the browser, or whatever gimmicky shit people are putting in alt coins these days to cover up the fact that the currency can't actually be used as a currency. BTC is boring, all you can do with it is buy shit. I'm not talking about pts. im talking about bitshares x, the current iteration of which lays the foundation for all other bitshares dacs. please see the links i provided in my previous post. the bitshares blockchains have the features I just outlined above which makes them far better than any system to date including bitcoin. there is no mining. block times are 15 seconds. and confirmation is one block. initial transaction per second will be 10. the alpha testing has demonstrated that the blockchain can handle 100tps. I don't have any pts at the moment, but I'm currently buying them. there will be 4 major snapshots that take place in the following weeks. Pts will go up just like it did for the original bitshare x snapshot. if you are a speculator you know this to be true. and if you are a long time investor who has seen the development team demonstrate a system that is far better than any to date you will also understand this to be true. You mean the bitshares X that was supposed to be released back in February? The one where, everyone like you bought up PTS from people like me to get it before the snap shot but then never got anything for it? That bitshares X? Getting burned once wasn't enough, you need to come back for more? Anyways, as that guy said, there is little reason to argue about this. PTS is currently trading at 0.0069BTC on Cryptsy, we can all just come back in a month or two and see what new low it has achieved. I'm not arguing with you, I'm providing you with information that you clearly do not have. Please just see the provided links and check out the alpha test so you can determine for yourself whether or not pts is undervalued. |
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Well, in the next few weeks were gonna see who was right about this?  If you just do your research its a no brainer |
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How are you basing your ROI calculations on? How do these DAC generate the profit for you?
They don't. But the bags are getting sooooooo heavy....... Brian have you done any research into BitShares? I don't think you have. Or you would understand why pts is extremely undervalued and this is a good entry point for investing in next generation blockchain technology. Bitshares-PTS is a simple clone of bitcoin. Its specs are not where it gets its value from. The value of PTS comes from the fact that it gives you a share of future distributed autonomous companies that are being launched by Invictus Innovation and other developers using the bitshares_toolkit. I encourage you to check out the alfa testing that is going on currently. None of those "distributed autonomous companies" exist. PTS gives you stake in non existent companies, hence its non existent value. I wonder, can I buy these companies that don't exist yet, with dollars that don't exist yet? I'm guessing that while they expect you to take their word that you will eventually get something, they don't take IOUs but only hard cash. Funny how these scams always work the same way. Some major enhancements to the blockchain technology have already been implemented that make it much better than any other crypto-currnency/crypto-equity platforms to date...
Yea sure. Something like 400 altcoins exist and they all promise to be "major enhancements to blockchain technology". Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but no one cares because you can't actually buy anything with them. The BitShares platform uses Delegated Proof of Stake ( http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/), which allows for greater, more effiecient security and transaction processing than bitcoin at a fraction of the cost. Blocks are produced every 15 seconds and *full* confirmation is around 12 minutes. Except the devs fucked up the difficulty re targeting so no one is mining it. So transactions now take literally DAYS to confirm, not seconds or minutes. Your first clue that they don't care should have been when they never fixed this. Listen, I do appreciate PTS for what it was. For a brief window of about 3 or 4 weeks, it was *immensely* profitable to mine. I probably made more BTC in that one month mining PTS than I have made mining everything else put together before and since. But come on that's all it ever was, a quick buck for the devs that the rest of us could ride along for. When they took the snapshot and then never released the DAC that should have finally clarified for you that there was no substance behind the hype. But then in that 3 day window when the difficulty was normalized, there people like you were again, still buying. So I get it, I get that you bought into the hype and bought these coins, and I appreciate that. But the time to get out was months ago, back when you still had a chance of convincing people that these DACs were real. Not now, after every deadline has been missed and no one believes it anymore. It amuses me when I see you and the other pumpers trying to build up this coin so you can dump it off on some other unsuspecting new person. Of course you all deny that's what you're doing but come on. Really? If you seriously believed all the hype about this coin that you spew, you wouldn't be altruistically sharing that information with us and thus diluting your own profits, you would just buy the coins quietly and keep your mouth shut. You wouldn't be advertising, you would be hoping no one else notices! Anyways, you want to make money in this game? Ditch the shitcoins and buy BTC. It's a currency, not a fucking social movement or the answer to all of life's questions even the ones you didn't ask yet, so it doesn't have all the cute gimmicks. It doesn't have some fake anonymity, or puny interest rate, or DACs, or shitty video games built into the browser, or whatever gimmicky shit people are putting in alt coins these days to cover up the fact that the currency can't actually be used as a currency. BTC is boring, all you can do with it is buy shit. I'm not talking about pts. im talking about bitshares x, the current iteration of which lays the foundation for all other bitshares dacs. please see the links i provided in my previous post. the bitshares blockchains have the features I just outlined above which makes them far better than any system to date including bitcoin. there is no mining. block times are 15 seconds. and confirmation is one block. initial transaction per second will be 10. the alpha testing has demonstrated that the blockchain can handle 100tps. I don't have any pts at the moment, but I'm currently buying them. there will be 4 major snapshots that take place in the following weeks. Pts will go up just like it did for the original bitshare x snapshot. if you are a speculator you know this to be true. and if you are a long time investor who has seen the development team demonstrate a system that is far better than any to date you will also understand this to be true. |
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How are you basing your ROI calculations on? How do these DAC generate the profit for you?
They don't. But the bags are getting sooooooo heavy....... Brian have you done any research into BitShares? I don't think you have. Or you would understand why pts is extremely undervalued and this is a good entry point for investing in next generation blockchain technology. Bitshares-PTS is a simple clone of bitcoin. Its specs are not where it gets its value from. The value of PTS comes from the fact that it gives you a share of future distributed autonomous companies that are being launched by Invictus Innovation and other developers using the bitshares_toolkit. I encourage you to check out the alfa testing that is going on currently. Some major enhancements to the blockchain technology have already been implemented that make it much better than any other crypto-currnency/crypto-equity platforms to date The BitShares platform uses Delegated Proof of Stake, which allows for greater, more effiecient security and transaction processing than bitcoin at a fraction of the cost. Blocks are produced every 15 seconds and *full* confirmation is around 12 minutes. If exchanges such as bter and mintpal uses the same confirmation metric as they currently use for bitcoin then your funds would be confirmed by the exchanges in 2 minutes and 6 minutes respectively. Won't that be great for arbitrage! Additionally, the testing network has sustained transaction volume of 50 - 100 transactions per second already. Bitcoin's 7 tps isnt even comparable. Another key enhancement in the BitShares platform is TITAN (Transfer Invisibly to any Name). The BitShares blockchain allows users to register names in the blockchain. These names have an associated public key that can be used to derive child keys for the purpose of stealth addresses. Now you can send directly to names instead of cryptographic public keys and all transactions are inherently anonymous. There is no need for mixing, or master nodes. Additionally, the current network also allows for user issued assets. There has been a lot of innovation within the BitShares ecosystem as the developer have laid down the groundwork for optimized decentralized transaction processing which will in turn allow for the creation of better distributed autonomous companies. From what I know DNS and Bitshares Bank will be ready for testing very soon. Much of the delay for the DAC software has been due to the teams focus on creating a blockchain that renders all other blockchains obsolete. I encourage you to contribute to the testing and discussion on the forum. Bashing a project you have little information on is not constructive and there is a lot of money to be made in investing in this innovation. For more information please visit: |
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How did this coin even get on mintpal?
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Ok... so let someone incur the cost of "attacking" the network. If the shareholders are not complacent then they will just for the network and the attacker will have control of a worthless network. You simply are not considering the economic cost of attacking the network. What you consider an attack is not actually an attack at all.
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IMO, trying to grab control with 50 puppets instead of 2 is much more difficult.
I know. You said that. But I was asking of the why? Where is the additional difficulty? Because people have to vote for the delegates. Also in what situation would anyone profit from a manipulation of 51% of the delegates? Or for that matter in what situation do you believe that anyone would profit from Ghash.io performing a 51% attack on the bitcoin network? They can be sued/hacked/coerced by governments, banks or other corporations. Preventing an entity from profiting from a 50% attack isn't enough. If anything prevents a delegate from doing his job (ie signing a block at the designated time) then he will be voted out and replaced by a delegate that is not being sued hacked or coerced by governments. Delegates have a simple task and do not have that much power. Shareholders will vote for the most diverse set of delegates in order to maintain a resilient network. Global competition is the most robust solution to the problems you described. |
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Oh I think I get what you are saying, although I am not entirely sure. But the notion of using one delegate was used in early testing however it was problematic from a technical standpoint. Theoretically speaking there is very little difference as long as the single highest voted delegate or multiple highest voted delegates can be voted out easily if they do not perform their task as prescribed by the networks constitution or shareholder consensus. However, more specifically an attempt to attack the network would be carried out in different fashions given the different network structures. If there is one delegate theoretically I believe it is easier to discern an attack on the network and immediately fire the delegate. If there are multiple delegates it is harder to initiate and coordinate an attack as the order that delegates sign blocks is reshuffled after N blocks.
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IMO, trying to grab control with 50 puppets instead of 2 is much more difficult.
I know. You said that. But I was asking of the why? Where is the additional difficulty? Because people have to vote for the delegates. That makes no sense. Why would this make is more difficult? Also in what situation would anyone profit from a manipulation of 51% of the delegates? Or for that matter in what situation do you believe that anyone would profit from Ghash.io performing a 51% attack on the bitcoin network?
I do not understand. In order to have 51% of the delegates under your control you either have to have 51% of the stake or you have to accumulate 51% of the votes from the shareholders. If you can do that how have you manipulated the market? All actions are voluntary and people will only vote for you if you provide the best service as a delegate. Also people that talk about theoretical attacks do not understand the practical implications of such an attack. There is no action without its cost and consequences. If you perform a 51% attack please explain how you can reasonably profit from it? I have never heard anyone making a practical argument for how a 51% attack is profitable. |
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IMO, trying to grab control with 50 puppets instead of 2 is much more difficult.
I know. You said that. But I was asking of the why? Where is the additional difficulty? Because people have to vote for the delegates. Also in what situation would anyone profit from a manipulation of 51% of the delegates? Or for that matter in what situation do you believe that anyone would profit from Ghash.io performing a 51% attack on the bitcoin network? |
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Price just hit 28k on Bter, all time high  Edit: 29k actually  whens the dump? also what are the advantages of this coin? i haven't seen any |
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Again, disclaimer: I'm not an expert.
I would dare to say no, it's not an improvement over Bitcoin. With bitcoin's poW, mining pools don't have any special powers that solo miners don't also have. So while the hashing power is "pooled", consensus isn't really "delegated" beyond the same protocol rules that affect everyone.
If you are talking about supernodes solving the nothing at stake problem because they can check signatures in real time, that is definitely taking a step toward trusted authorities. In contrast, proof of work acts as it's own timestamp.
How does a mining pool not have power that solo miners do not? A mining pool can produce more blocks than a single miner... I'm absolutely fascinated by your insistence that bitcoin is trustless network. There is no such thing a trustless transaction. You can create an environment that incentivizes a desired outcome. But at the end of the day all of these systems rely on people. Bitcoin is less of mathematical experiment as much as sociological one. We know that public key cryptography works, but what we do not know is whether or not individuals can trust no one while simultaneously trusting everyone. But this is the nature of economics and think it has been empirically proven that I do not have to trust an individual I transact with but rather I can trust society as a whole. I'm not an expert either but I feel that your analysis of bitcoin and related systems lacks understanding of organizational theory. All organization whether virtual or not face the same fundamental constraints and the delegation of power is necessary for scalability. |
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how could that be a problem. proof of work can be considered a proof of stake system in that you are proving your stake in the collective hashing power of the network. The value comes from the stake not from the cost of proving that you have stake. Thus, the reduced cost of pos mining is not a problem but a solution.
If you don't understand the "nothing at stake problem" aka "very little at stake problem" go back and read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584703.msg6982574#msg6982574This attack does not apply to DPOS... Oh ok I understand this attack better now. Two questions then:
It seems like this affects NXT but not DPOS, because with DPOS once you miss a chance to produce a block it is gone forever - you cannot use old stake-votes to produce a longer chain if at least 51% of delegates have produced a block since then. Is this right?
Also, NXT claims that having clients reject chains built on anything but the most recent block they have seen solves not only this but 51%... this is true in theory but relies on unreasonable network connectivity assumptions. Is this right?
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